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This is the HoT right after he beats Darth Angral and possessed Kira Carsen.

Healed/rested after each round.

1. Darth Bandon
2. AOTC Anakin
3. AOTC Kenobi
4. Qui Gon
5. The Barsen'thor
6. Lord Scourge (pre Emperor's Wrath)

Lol at list Order.

Anyway, dies at 2, probably can take 1,3, and 4 on a good day.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Lol at list Order.

Anyway, dies at 2, probably can take 1,3, and 4 on a good day.

Interesting. I always thought of Aotc Anakin as being a smidge below 3 and 4 just due to sheer inexperience.

How close are her fights against 5 and 6?

Beats 1 and 6, 2-4 are arguable, and gets crushed at 5.

The Barsen'thor? Below Scourge?
http://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Hero of Python
Interesting. I always thought of Aotc Anakin as being a smidge below 3 and 4 just due to sheer inexperience.

How close are her fights against 5 and 6?
Assuming peak Barsen'Thor, not close at all. Scourge also destroys. Anakin did better against Dooku than Kenobi in AotC, so he's not below him.

Barsen'thor below Scourge (normal)?

Anyways, HoT is already a fantastic warrior during Act 1 period. He emerged as an expert swordsman and defeated several Sith Lords including Darth Angral* and even a few Children of the Emperor.

So:

1. Easily
2. Easily
3. Easily
4. Easily
5. Stops (Assuming Barsen'thor at prime)

Otherwise:-

Clears.

---

*Darth Angral was among the most powerful Sith of the Empire.

Lol that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

HOT beats 1, loses to everyone else. Even scourge.

Originally posted by Selenial
Lol that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

HOT beats 1, loses to everyone else. Even scourge.
Seems like you haven't played Jedi Knight story.

Even if you have, you have short memory.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seems like you haven't played Jedi Knight story.

Even if you have, you have short memory.

4 times actually.

Angral was passed his prime, and unbalanced by the loss of his son, evidenced by his frankly suicidal antics. Not to mention the hero didn't do it alone, Kira was there as well, and we know she was because of the storyline.

Even if she did beat Angral alone, Angral's got nothing on Dooku and Skywalker gave him a good fight.

Originally posted by Selenial
4 times actually.

Angral was passed his prime, and unbalanced by the loss of his son, evidenced by his frankly suicidal antics. Not to mention the hero didn't do it alone, Kira was there as well, and we know she was because of the storyline.

Even if she did beat Angral alone, Angral's got nothing on Dooku and Skywalker gave him a good fight.
Nice excuses.

Nothing implies that Angral was past his prime or unstable as of Act I. He was angry at the death of his son and Sith tend to fuel their strength from emotions such as anger. Angral have history of defeating Jedi Master Orgus Din and proving to be a match for powerful Darth Baras. Angral also happened to be an expert swordsman since he honed several great warriors including Lord Praven and out-dueled both Orgus Din and Baras. I wouldn't underestimate him.

As for Kira, Emperor sabotaged her interference by possessing her.

Besides, HoT have defeated several noteworthy foes during Act 1. Shall I make a list?

Also, recall this?

"You are stronger than any Jedi I have known"

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice excuses.

Nothing implies that Angral was past his prime as of Act I. And he have history of defeating Jedi Master Orgus Din and Darth Baras.

As for Kira, Emperor sabotaged here interference by possessing her.

Besides, HoT have defeated several noteworthy foes during Act 1. Shall I make a list?

Also, recall this?

"You are stronger than any Jedi I have known"

He sabotaged her after the fight, you've got some serious rose tinted glasses on here.

None of the foes he's defeatee even come close to Dooku, so you can make a list all you want I won't care. Not to mention Kira was there every single time.

Anakin was said to have more raw force potential than Yoda, by far. That's a lot more impressive. Not to mention a short few years later he supposedly had strength that eclipsed that of Yoda, where in the same time HOT didn't improve even to levels of Vitiate. Judging retrospectively it should be obvious which of them is stronger in the force...

I think Act I Hero could beat Act I Barsen'thor, but not her peak. It's kind of hard to place the Hero as of Act I since multiple people state she's the most powerful Jedi around pretty much from the start of the game but she lacks solid feats. Lots of impressive wins though.

Also although she did fight Angral with Kira, she then had to fight Kira possessed by Vitiate, who was likely a far more challenging fighter than Kira is normally, so that more than makes up for it.

An average Lord in the Sith Empire is Darth Maul and Count Dooku tier, LeGenD Logic.

Originally posted by AncientPower
An average Lord in the Sith Empire is Darth Maul and Count Dooku tier, LeGenD Logic.
How about you buy the SWTOR Enyclopedia and learn about the high standards for becoming a Sith Lord in the Empire?

The reconstituted Sith Empire set higher standards for becoming a Sith then ever before after the debacle of Great Hyperspace War.

Among the Sith, a Lord represents a master of the Force or a super warrior with the expected ability to defeat most Jedi in single combat. Though Lords often run into Jedi prodigies, confrontations that can swing either way. Among millions, few have the potential to become a Lord.

Basic SWTOR facts:-

Champion of the Dark Side (Sith Warrior class)

Details here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-warrior

Sinister, Deceptive, Prodigy of Force Power (Sith Inquisitor class)

Details here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-inquisitor

---

Just because BioWare doesn't have the resources to demonstrate the epicness of every Lord of the Empire, doesn't means that they suck. BioWare have provided lore to guide people to come to informed conclusions about SWTOR related content.

To give you an idea, two virtually unknown Dark Council members Victun and Qalar managed to destroy the first Citadel of Dromund Kaas in a Kaggath while attempting to kill each other. The building got busted as a side-effect of the exchange of powers between the two Sith prodigies.

Similarly, the confrontation between Thanaton and Exal Kressh resulted in devastation of an entire space colony, thanks in part to the latter's intention towards this end.

Learn the history.

Originally posted by AncientPower
An average Lord in the Sith Empire is Darth Maul and Count Dooku tier, LeGenD Logic.

This, I always get sucked into debates with him because I forget how ridiculous his posts are. I understand why no one takes him seriously.

Literally no point replying, because surely no one else is brain damaged enough to believe that.

Originally posted by Selenial
Not to mention a short few years later he supposedly had strength that eclipsed that of Yoda,

Hahaha what???

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How about you buy the SWTOR Enyclopedia and learn about the high standards for becoming a Sith Lord in the Empire?

The reconstituted Sith Empire set higher standards for becoming a Sith then ever before after the debacle of Great Hyperspace War.

Among the Sith, a Lord represents a master of the Force or a super warrior with the expected ability to defeat most Jedi in single combat. Though Lords often run into Jedi prodigies, confrontations that can swing either way. Among millions, few have the potential to become a Lord.

Basic SWTOR facts:-

Champion of the Dark Side (Sith Warrior class)

Details here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-warrior

Sinister, Deceptive, Prodigy of Force Power (Sith Inquisitor class)

Details here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-inquisitor

---

Just because BioWare doesn't have the resources to demonstrate the epicness of every Lord of the Empire, doesn't means that they suck. BioWare have provided lore to guide people to come to informed conclusions about SWTOR related content.

To give you an idea, two virtually unknown Dark Council members Victun and Qalar managed to destroy the first Citadel of Dromund Kaas in a Kaggath while attempting to kill each other. The building got busted as a side-effect of the exchange of powers between the two Sith prodigies.

Similarly, the confrontation between Thanaton and Exal Kressh resulted in devastation of an entire space colony, thanks in part to the latter's intention towards this end.

Learn the history.




So basically...


Originally posted by AncientPower
An average Lord in the Sith Empire is Darth Maul and Count Dooku tier, LeGenD Logic.

Originally posted by Selenial
This, I always get sucked into debates with him because I forget how ridiculous his posts are. I understand why no one takes him seriously.

Literally no point replying, because surely no one else is brain damaged enough to believe that.
Oh, I forgot that I am having a debate with Einstein award winners in this forum, my views are insignificant or false in comparison.

Or may I assert High School failures who don't have the mindset or talent to develop highly accurate projections from existing content or aptitude for research or high-standard thinking ability?

Whenever you pass remarks about someone, think twice before you post such bullshit.

I am talking about Lords of the Empire. Not every Tom, D***, and Harry.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Basic SWTOR facts:-

Champion of the Dark Side (Sith Warrior class)

Details here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-warrior

Sinister, Deceptive, Prodigy of Force Power (Sith Inquisitor class)

Details here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-inquisitor
.

Those refer to Wrath and Nox specifically, as not all Sith Warriors/Inquisitors know Vette and Khem Val as associates, obviously.

I don't think anyone denies that the Wrath is Dooku level considering he disintegrated a massive door, wiped out a camp of 1,000 of the Republic's finest, and beat all those Jedi and Baras.
But the motion to suggest every ordinary Sith Warrior is impressive enough to go up against some of the greatest Sith Lords in history - Maul and Dooku - is just pure silly talk. Don't you think?

I don't see how you can assert that none on the list can match even Usma, who was merely called a famous swordsman. I mean, Bandon was the no 2 Sith in Malak's empire, Qui-Gon I'm pretty sure has been called one of the best swordsman alive/in history or something and Anakin and Obi-Wan are pretty good as well considering they can somewhat contend with Dooku, who has massive hype. So I'm not really following your logic here, Legend. Hype-wise, Usma is pretty lowkey.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't think anyone denies that the Wrath is Dooku level considering he disintegrated a massive door, wiped out a camp of 1,000 of the Republic's finest, and beat all those Jedi and Baras.

Please post these feats!

Bandon wasn't the number two Sith in the Sith Empire, he was the number one apprentice though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Please post these feats!
I have a RT for the Wrath coming soon.
I went through his storyline this spring break.
I wouldn't want to spoil the best content, yes?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh, I forgot that I am having a debate with Einstein award winners in this forum, my views are insignificant or false in comparison.

Or may I assert High School failures who don't have the mindset or talent to develop highly accurate projections from existing content or aptitude for research or high-standard thinking ability?

Whenever you pass remarks about someone, think twice before you post such bullshit.

I am talking about Lords of the Empire. Not every Tom, D***, and Harry.

He so mad. Liking the aptitude for research comment, since that's exactly why I was just flown to India by my boss

Legend be cray cray.

Even Neph's like "lol nah m8 pls"

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Bandon wasn't the number two Sith in the Sith Empire, he was the number one apprentice though.

I thought the apprentice of the Dark Lord was the no 2. Like Malak was to Revan and Bastila was to Malak. I dunno who else would be the second in command. Theres those goons Malak sics on you in the SF if you're darkside I guess. Doesn't he say they're his top ranking dudes?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I have a RT for the Wrath coming soon.
I went through his storyline this spring break.
I wouldn't want to spoil the best content, yes?

Fair enough.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I have a RT for the Wrath coming soon.
I went through his storyline this spring break.
I wouldn't want to spoil the best content, yes?

Ohh, when'd you finish it?

Originally posted by Selenial
Ohh, when'd you finish it?
Meh, I have like 30 gifs done already, but a lot more need to be made.
Obviously my hope is either Friday or Saturday to get it all done and out.

He was, like Bandon, his best Sith Apprentice. Malak doesn't take Sith Masters like Uthar under his wing, obviously.
Uthar Wynn, the Sith Master of Manaan, and the Sith Master of Rakata Prime should all be above Darth Bandon, tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought the apprentice of the Dark Lord was the no 2. Like Malak was to Revan and Bastila was to Malak. I dunno who else would be the second in command. Theres those goons Malak sics on you in the SF if you're darkside I guess. Doesn't he say they're his top ranking dudes?



Fair enough.

He says whichever wins can become his new apprentice, Bandon was definitely the number 2.

He was a Darth, just because he was Malaks apprentice doesn't make him weak.

Plus, KotOR 2 implies some of the Jedi Council members were corrupted over to Revan's side. They should be pretty tough too.

Bandon was quite powerful though, not sure why you laugh at him (ignoring the KMC joke, of course).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Meh, I have like 30 gifs done already, but a lot more need to be made.
Obviously my hope is either Friday or Saturday to get it all done and out.

He was, like Bandon, his best Sith Apprentice. Malak doesn't take Sith Masters like Uthar under his wing, obviously.
Uthar Wynn, the Sith Master of Manaan, and the Sith Master of Rakata Prime should all be above Darth Bandon, tbh.

Bandon is a Darth though, instructors are hardly Darth level, SWTOR actually confirms theyre rarely even Lords. Although maybe. I used to use Revan beating Uthar and Yuthura as proof that Uthar sucks, but turns out he redeemed Yuthura.

**** it, no longer think HOT can take anyone in this gauntlet.

The Hero can beat Bandon, come on.

She killed a monster that murders Krayt Dragons.

Nah, Revan doesn't redeem Yuthura. TCSWE confirms Revan kills them both, luckily.
This is because he can't redeem Yuthura considering the Dantooine Academy was destroyed.


Uthar may not be a Darth, but he outranks Bandon in the sense he is a Sith Master and Bandon is a Sith Apprentice.
The reason why Uthar doesn't have the Darth title is unknown, but what is known is he is the most powerful Sith on Korriban.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She killed a monster that murders Krayt Dragons.
So does the Wrath.

That Sand Demon? Thought they walked around it.

Either way, animals are adapted in certain ways, that'd be no more deadly than say an Acklay, given its appearance and the fact she obviously wasn't poisoned.

I don't know, She might be able to kill Bandon but I can't say for sure. I'd place him above Angral, he survived a decade of war and became a very high ranking sith... Higher than Angral ever was.

I was under the impression the Hero tamed the Sand Demon via Beast Control. Is that not an option, Neph?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nah, Revan doesn't redeem Yuthura. TCSWE confirms Revan kills them both, luckily.
This is because he can't redeem Yuthura considering the Dantooine Academy was destroyed.


Uthar may not be a Darth, but he outranks Bandon in the sense he is a Sith Master and Bandon is a Sith Apprentice.
The reason why Uthar doesn't have the Darth title is unknown, but what is known is he is the most powerful Sith on Korriban.

She probably helped rebuild the order then, becuase Revan wasn't sure if Dantooine was destroyed, and she could have helped the rebuilding effort. She has a descendant, Yadira in SWTOR.

Nah, the fact he has a master doesnt make him less than Uthar. It just means Malak saw he had more potential than any other sith. The three he sends after Dark!Revan were all Dark Jedi Masters, it's basically the rule of two with a seperate structure of subordinates.

Remember of course that the rule of two was basically Revans idea.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So does the Wrath.

He can cheese it though with beast control.

Originally posted by Selenial
That Sand Demon? Thought they walked around it.

Either way, animals are adapted in certain ways, that'd be no more deadly than say an Acklay, given its appearance and the fact she obviously wasn't poisoned.

I don't know, She might be able to kill Bandon but I can't say for sure. I'd place him above Angral, he survived a decade of war and became a very high ranking sith... Higher than Angral ever was.

No, you kill it (and it's babies?).

How can a thing that kills Krayt Dragon's be only as deadly as an Ackley (which AotC Obi-Wan had trouble with btw)? There's literally a giant Krayt Dragon skeleton outside it's nest, come on. As I recall it's able to just bore through solid rock, so I doubt it's reliant on poison.

Vitiate's empire > Malak's. Malak himself is basically Dark Council level. I'd back Angral over Bandon any day. He has actual feats and his explicitly superior to people with known abilities.

TBH, I'm considering the Hero getting through the whole list up to 'Thor. Being widely considered superior to Act I Barsen'thor and Satele and a bunch of other powerful Jedi should put her above those guys, if we're considering hype here.

Nah, Bastila and Malak confirmed the destruction of Datooine on his flagship, which was beforehand. The TCSWE says this:

"Wynn and Yuthura attacked the Jedi , but both were defeated in combat."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

It is possible, I guess, that Revan spared her, but he did seemingly fight them both at once, which is pretty cool if you ask me.
---
Nah, they weren't Dark Jedi Masters - I just checked. They were Dark Jedi Apprentices like Bandon, just the strongest there was.

Meh, I meant in the terms that Uthar outranks and is the strongest Sith on all of Korriban, which shows superiority to hundreds of Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He can cheese it though with beast control.
That's only light side - non-canon.

(My other discussion response is on the previous page).

Originally posted by Nephthys
He can cheese it though with beast control.



No, you kill it (and it's babies?).

How can a thing that kills Krayt Dragon's be only as deadly as an Ackley (which AotC Obi-Wan had trouble with btw)? There's literally a giant Krayt Dragon skeleton outside it's nest, come on. As I recall it's able to just bore through solid rock, so I doubt it's reliant on poison.

Vitiate's empire > Malak's. I'd back Angral over Bandon any day. He has actual feats and his explicitly superior to people with known abilities.

TBH, I'm considering the Hero getting through the whole list up to 'Thor. Being widely considered superior to Act I Barsen'thor and Satele and a bunch of other powerful Jedi should put her above those guys, if we're considering hype here.

Well, I'm just thinking about how it fights. If it's poisonous or that powerful, obviously she wasn't hit by it at all. If she wasn't hit by it, that's no different from Obi wan not being hit by the Acklay, considering they are the same size and shape. While yes shed have to hit it more to kill it, he had to survive without a lightsaber. Kinda think they balance out.

Perhaps. I don't particularly care about the Bandon fight tbh.

And I disagree, strongly.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nah, Bastila and Malak confirmed the destruction of Datooine on his flagship, which was beforehand. The TCSWE says this:

"Wynn and Yuthura attacked the Jedi , but both were defeated in combat."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

It is possible, I guess, that Revan spared her, but he did seemingly fight them both at once, which is pretty cool if you ask me.
---
Nah, they weren't Dark Jedi Masters - I just checked. They were Dark Jedi Apprentices like Bandon, just the strongest there was.

Meh, I meant in the terms that Uthar outranks and is the strongest Sith on all of Korriban, which shows superiority to hundreds of Sith.

Fair enough.

Conceded.

Still disagree on the Bandon vs Uthar thing though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Meh, I meant in the terms that Uthar outranks and is the strongest Sith on all of Korriban, which shows superiority to hundreds of Sith.

Cough And Angral is superior to millions cough!

Originally posted by Selenial
Still disagree on the Bandon vs Uthar thing though.
You might be getting the wrong impression - I put them around the same level.
In terms of feats, I definitely understand why Bandon can be shown the superior.

Legend thinks there's millions of sith.

Like what?

Originally posted by Selenial
He so mad. Liking the aptitude for research comment, since that's exactly why I was just flown to India by my boss

Legend be cray cray.

Even Neph's like "lol nah m8 pls"
And you are the only intelligent being in this forum, right?

You make debate personal here. Don't do this. Labeling people "brain damaged" for having a different view then yours is asinine. Such lack of intolerance have little room in practical life. You won't get far in your career with this kind of aptitude.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those articles explain the class, not precisely the PC (Playable Character) itself.

Do you see BioWare putting a DISCLAIMER that the information presented in the official links of Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor class is valid for the SWTOR PC only. All other Sith of same class relatively suck in comparison?

I never said they all suck, I said they suck in comparison to Dooku and Darth Maul.
BioWare basically said it when they said the Warrior knows Vette and rids the Fury.


I don't deny your average Lord or Darth is powerful, I deny they can stand up against Dooku when some of the Jedi's finest can't even.
BTW, the normal Imperial population to Sith Lords is 10,000 to 1, not a million to 1, silly.


They are both said to be among the most powerful Sith Lords in history - many times.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you are the only intelligent being in this forum, right?

You make debate personal here. Don't do this. Labeling people "brain damaged" for having a different view then yours is asinine. Such lack of intolerance have little room in practical life. You won't get far in your career with this kind of aptitude.

Nah, plenty others.

I don't deny your intelligence, apart from jokes. You're just insanely biased to the point of your arguments sounding like they come from a 12 year old. Your obsession with any characters from TOR is almost as bad as Ant's obsession with Revan.

Originally posted by Selenial
Your obsession with any characters from TOR is almost as bad as Ant's obsession with Revan.
Did someone say Revan?

Originally posted by Selenial
Well, I'm just thinking about how it fights. If it's poisonous or that powerful, obviously she wasn't hit by it at all. If she wasn't hit by it, that's no different from Obi wan not being hit by the Acklay, considering they are the same size and shape. While yes shed have to hit it more to kill it, he had to survive without a lightsaber. Kinda think they balance out.

Perhaps. I don't particularly care about the Bandon fight tbh.

And I disagree, strongly.

But wouldn't you say it's still more dangerous and therefore harder to avoid and fight? Anything that can kill a Krayt Dragon must be an absolute beast, remember what they needed to kill one in Kotor? Plus you have to also contend with 20 of it's offspring, so I'd say it's incredibly impressive. There's more great feats, like beating Bengol Morr, Praven, that Sith who gets cyborged, one of the Children of the Emperor, Angral obvs, Possessed Kira, fighting that ******* Sith while dodging the death laser. Even on Tython they fight a monster strong enough to just rip huge boulders out of the ground.

So the Act I Hero is undoubtedly better than Bandon imho.

Act I 'Thor could ragdoll everyone on this list except herself. And beating Vivicar is a better feat than any of them have (again, barring herself). Then theres Satele and Braga and Kaeden and Jarro and others. All stated to be inferior to Act I HoT.

Originally posted by Selenial
Legend thinks there's millions of sith.

Like what?

There are millions of Sith in Vitiate's Empire. This is stated a few times in the encyclopedia.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Then theres Satele and Braga and Kaeden and Jarro and others. All stated to be inferior to Act I HoT.
You mean the quote by Shan herself?

I'm pretty sure she knows her own abilities, yeah.

And I mean, 5 different people all call the Hero the greatest Jedi alive. 4 of them by the start of Act 2.

Bengal Morr and Satele Shan. Who else?

Orgus Din (on Tython) and Tol Braga (at the start of Act II). And then Scourge in the end of Act II.

They all say the strongest in generations, not of all the Jedi (besides Scourge).

Yeah, what I said stands.

Satele repeatedly says you're the best Jedi alive, Braga says you're the best soldier in the the order, Morr says you're more powerful than any Jedi he's seen, Orgus says you're more powerful than anyone he's seen in decades while Satele is in the same room (the ****ing Jedi Council chambers) and then Scourge says you're the Jedi's finest.

How is any of that "in generations?"

I meant besides Shan and Morr, they all say along the lines of "in generations." Sorry for not clarifying.
Braga saying Hero's the best solider in the Order doesn't place him above Jedi Council members, silly.
Then we have Benegel Morr, who had tough relations with the council. Of course he will put the Hero over them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I meant besides Shan and Morr, they all say along the lines of "in generations." Sorry for not clarifying.
Braga saying Hero's the best solider in the Order doesn't place him above Jedi Council members, silly.
Then we have Benegel Morr, who had tough relations with the council. Of course he will put the Hero over them.

No they don't. The only one that's like that is Orgus saying shes stronger than he's seen in decades. But I fail to see why he wouldn't be including current Jedi rather than a more limited meaning.

Oh please, don't pull that semantics crap on me. Plus 'Thor and Jarro weren't even on the council. Plus it's backed up by 4 more statements all saying she's above all Jedi, even the council. Satele's statements are more than enough when backed up by the others.

Bengal Morr who spent a decade plotting to overthrow the Jedi Order and was the apprentice of the most veteran, experienced Jedi in the order and was stationed on Coruscant.

Plus, it's not as if the Hero doesn't know the Barsen'thor very well. Considering all the flashpoints they go on together. If she was lesser than her I'm sure she would have contradicted these statements putting her above 'Thor. And obviously 3 Jedi Council members, one of whom is the Grandmaster, know what they're talking about.

I don't know why you're challenging this, you really doubt that she's the best Jedi in TOR?

If I didn't doubt it, I wouldn't be challenging it.

You haven't really been that challenging so far, bro.

That's probably because I'm not interested in being challenging.

No offense but debates with you almost inevitably end in circles.
It is the reason why many posters stop replying to you mid-way in.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's good to stand strong, but still...

Then again, upon completion of the Wrath thread, I might be interested.

Oh christ wait.... your just defensive over Revan aren't you?

Geez man, none of these guys even know he's alive. Well, maybe Scourge. Chillax.

How funny.

Ok, but do you have any reason to doubt these statements? The only Jedi who rivals her in 'Thor but I stand that the Hero > her. We can even do a quick comparison because even Act III 'Thor has trouble with the Children whereas Act I HoT beats one mid-act no-probs.

Plus Thor is covered by your "in generations" bs.

A Councilor and I went to Malestrom and Revan talked to me first. He said the Force was the stronger in me than he's sensed in a long time but not to Thor. Power confirmed.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/biscuits.gif

Originally posted by Trocity
So basically...

Essentially.

Act 1 HoT probably beats 1, 3, 4, and 6. The Hero is definitely the most powerful jedi alive by the end of Act 3, though.

Weren't you the one arguing that Act II Scourge stalemated Act II HoT?

This is pre-Wrath Scourge, from the book.

Ah, my mistake. Yeah, I can see that going either way, but leaning Scourge still.

Cool discussion guys, learned a lot.

Do any of you think that end of act I HoT could stand a chance against Jedi Knight Malak or Dooku?

Probably not, just curious. How badly would she lose if that's the case?

Also I've never played the Consular story so I could be interpreting this incorrectly, but I find the disparity between the JK and JC to be a bit funny. Obviously the HoT is much stronger by the end, but shouldn't the JC also be considered "one of the strongest Jedi in generations" by people like Satele and Tol Braga if they can also take down Children of the Emperor by act III? Sure it took them longer to get to that point, but HoT was declared to be a badass even before taking down Angral and a Child of the Emperor....

Act 1 hero is stronger than jedi Malak, but definitely weaker than jedi dooku.

Stronger than Malak, couldn't say about Dooku. Maybe.

Also Satele says the Consular is one of the strongest Jedi in history at one point in the DLC. And she really does have some of the best feats of any Jedi ever.

Jedi Dooku has the necessary hype, (wisest, most powerful Jedi Yoda had ever trained, one of the most powerful in the order's entire history,) and implications (defeating/matching Mace Windu in lightsaber combat, probably not significantly lesser than Sith dooku ) to be placed above act 1 HoT, IMO.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
Do any of you think that end of act I HoT could stand a chance against Jedi Knight Malak or Dooku?

Despite Malak being the second greatest Jedi of his era, he was a far more powerful Sith Lord.

If we're going by hype and implications, Act 1 HoT being better than Kaeden (beat the Dread Masters), Jarro (stomped 100 Mando's in one battle), Corin Tok (deemed indestructible), Tol Braga (dueled a DC member for several days), Satele (Shan) and the Barsen'thor (pwned a Vivicar empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters) then I'd suggest the Hero is better than Dooku.

There is a difference between credible statements, hype, then exaggerations.

Neph, your last response mainly fit in the last category.

You mean like when someone's opinion is heavily biased because of a deep personal connection. Maybe between a master and apprentice. One that's demonstrably affected someones judgement at times with severe consequences. Just a thought, dunno how that could be relevant when discussing Dooku's hype or anything but just throwing it out there.

I mean clearly Morr, Din, Satele, Braga and Scourge aren't credibly at all and are all just exaggerating. Because of their clear bias. Whereas Dooku's hype suffers from nothing even like that.

There is a difference between sourcebook/narrator statements, and then character praise.

Obviously Revan isn't the heart of the Force.

The thing I was referencing was a character statement, pleb.

Yeah - and Dooku's and Mace's are sourcebook hype. See the difference?

Act I HoT is also one of the most powerful Jedi in history and Windu's level at that point is unsubstantiated and not necessarily better than the HoT. Windu would probably lose to Act I Barsen'thor considering her feats.

Also when you have multiple completely separate character statements that all say the same thing, that adds credibility to the stance.

Care to explain how Kaedan captured the dread masters?

Beating 100 mando is impressive, but probably not outside of Dooku's capability. And what is the direct quote for this? I know it exists, I just want to see it.

A powerful dark council member that Braga couldn't actually defeat and mace Windu are two distinctly different things.

Satele is meh.

The barsen'thor's feat at the end of act 1 is a perpetuated farce. Vivicar hadn't absorbed the power of hundreds of jedi masters yet, based on what he says prior to the fight. Her TK feats are still great, though they aren't anything dooku couldn't replicate in any fashion.

And the hero's actual saber/combat feats at the end of act 1 don't match dooku being mace windu'a equal as a lightsaber combatant. Not forgetting that dooku is just as if not more competent with the force as with a lightsaber.

And neph, even in dark rendezvous it's still stated that dooku= Windu in sabers.

No canonical source credits him among the most powerful Jedi in history.

You mean, all from the same characters? Not really.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Care to explain how Kaedan captured the dread masters?

Beating 100 mando is impressive, but probably not outside of Dooku's capability. And what is the direct quote for this? I know it exists, I just want to see it.

A powerful dark council member that Braga couldn't actually defeat and mace Windu are two distinctly different things.

Satele is meh.

The barsen'thor's feat at the end of act 1 is a perpetuated farce. Vivicar hadn't absorbed the power of hundreds of jedi masters yet, based on what he says prior to the fight. Her TK feats are still great, though they aren't anything dooku couldn't replicate in any fashion.

And the hero's actual saber/combat feats at the end of act 1 don't match dooku being mace windu'a equal as a lightsaber combatant. Not forgetting that dooku is just as if not more competent with the force as with a lightsaber.

And neph, even in dark rendezvous it's still stated that dooku= Windu in sabers.

He boarded their ship with Havoc Squad while their fear powers were being mitigated and then I guess they were defeated in a conventional fight?

Kellian Jarro. You also get his backstory when given the assignment. And sure, Dooku would be capable of that. As a Sith. But as a Jedi? Didn't he actually fight Mando's as a Jedi? How'd he do?

He converted him. And was able to fight for days on end. That's impressive.

Ha ha ha no, she's not.

Uh, yes he had. His whole speech was about how you couldn't beat him because he was drawing power from hundreds of Masters. And Thor was weak and tired. It's an incredible feat. And her TK feats are better than what Jedi Dooku can do. Which is????

Windu's ability at that point isn't substantiated.

And in Dark Rendezvous I'm sure they are. But this isn't that Dooku.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No canonical source credits him among the most powerful Jedi in history.

You mean, all from the same characters? Not really.

It doesn't need to be said.

Those 5 characters are all the same??? That's a hell of a twist, thanks for spoiling it you asshat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But as a Jedi? Didn't he actually fight Mando's as a Jedi? How'd he do?

Pretty good. He exterminated them.

By himself?

No, him and like twenty others. All though, most of the others couldn't have been that skilled considering Jango killed half a dozen of them with his bare hands.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He boarded their ship with Havoc Squad while their fear powers were being mitigated and then I guess they were defeated in a conventional fight?

Kellian Jarro. You also get his backstory when given the assignment. And sure, Dooku would be capable of that. As a Sith. But as a Jedi? Didn't he actually fight Mando's as a Jedi? How'd he do?

He converted him. And was able to fight for days on end. That's impressive.

Ha ha ha no, she's not.

Uh, yes he had. His whole speech was about how you couldn't beat him because he was drawing power from hundreds of Masters. And Thor was weak and tired. It's an incredible feat. And her TK feats are better than what Jedi Dooku can do. Which is????

Windu's ability at that point isn't substantiated.

And in Dark Rendezvous I'm sure they are. But this isn't that Dooku.

Considering almost their entire offense is stipulated from fear, and that literally nothing is known about the confrontation, and their other feats and accolades make kaedan look like a relative fly....yeah there isn't tremendous consistency there.

Yeah, so he killed a total of 100. For some reason I thought he'd fought them all at the same time. Yeah the battle as whole went pretty badly for dooku, though I question how much of that was due to his individual lack of power or ability.

Impressive in terms of endurance and pacifism, not necessarily in skill or offensive force capability.

Her force strength is great, but her lightsaber skill and combative body of work are somewhat incongruent with her power. And besides, during SWTOR satele wasn't a warrior anymore and past her peak.

False. He says with the proper rituals, he can siphon that power, and that soon (when he starts siphoning it,) he'll become the most powerful force adept in history.

True, at that point windu's skill is unsubstantiated, I'll concede.

Proof that dooku's lightsaber skill increased as a sith?

If you haven't already noticed, I'm basing my notions off of the fact that Jedi dooku isn't exponentially weaker than sith dooku. I'm power scaling, like a lot of people do for TOR characters such as vivicar, braga, kellian jarro, and Kaedan.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If we're going by hype and implications, Act 1 HoT being better than Kaeden (beat the Dread Masters), Jarro (stomped 100 Mando's in one battle), Corin Tok (deemed indestructible), Tol Braga (dueled a DC member for several days), Satele (Shan) and the Barsen'thor (pwned a Vivicar empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters) then I'd suggest the Hero is better than Dooku.

I suppose it all depends where you place Jedi Dooku amongst Old Republic characters. Somewhere around Tol Braga and Emperor's Wrath sounds reasonable.

Act II HoT took out the latter with minimal difficulty, and took out the former (w/ Darkside boost) incredibly easily in Act III. Not to mention my darkside HoT dominated Braga's mind as easily as Vitiate did.

Jedi Dooku will take the majority of the fights I think, but Act I HoT beating him is definitely not out of the question.

Act II Hero fought the Wrath to a stalemate.

nvm.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Act II Hero fought the Wrath to a stalemate.

Maybe I overestimated game mechanics. Either way, in one of the immediately-after-act II holoterminal conversations you can threaten to end him and he shuts right up, so I imagine HoT is safely above him even if their first fight was a stalemate.

It really wasn't a stalemate. He's on his knee's and unarmed, that doesn't say "draw" to me. The quest text says you fought to a standstill, but a standstill just means you stopped fighting so no big deal.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah - and Dooku's and Mace's are sourcebook hype. See the difference?
This is not a valid argument.

Lore have credibility whether it is book-based or game-based. Both are official information.

HoT is stated to be the strongest Jedi in a span of generations at the time of his arrival on Tython. He continues to grow in strength and ability afterwards.

SWTOR promotes HoT as the most powerful Jedi of the Order, period.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

HoT is stated to be the strongest Jedi in a span of generations at the time of his arrival on Tython.
You know, I don't think it needs to be explained to most people that saying, "You're the most powerful seen in generations," doesn't actually mean, "You can kill everyone here at his very moment," but with you...I don't know. Realize the HoT is amazed that a cave can be collapsed with the Force by someone we've only seen lose, fresh of the boat.

Yeah, well there's clearly a big difference between fresh off the boat and the end of Tython.

Remember that the Hero was thought advanced enough to have a padawan by the end of Coruscant (minor prodigy, lmao).

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Considering almost their entire offense is stipulated from fear, and that literally nothing is known about the confrontation, and their other feats and accolades make kaedan look like a relative fly....yeah there isn't tremendous consistency there.

Yeah, so he killed a total of 100. For some reason I thought he'd fought them all at the same time. Yeah the battle as whole went pretty badly for dooku, though I question how much of that was due to his individual lack of power or ability.

Impressive in terms of endurance and pacifism, not necessarily in skill or offensive force capability.

Her force strength is great, but her lightsaber skill and combative body of work are somewhat incongruent with her power. And besides, during SWTOR satele wasn't a warrior anymore and past her peak.

False. He says with the proper rituals, he can siphon that power, and that soon (when he starts siphoning it,) he'll become the most powerful force adept in history.

True, at that point windu's skill is unsubstantiated, I'll concede.

Proof that dooku's lightsaber skill increased as a sith?

If you haven't already noticed, I'm basing my notions off of the fact that Jedi dooku isn't exponentially weaker than sith dooku. I'm power scaling, like a lot of people do for TOR characters such as vivicar, braga, kellian jarro, and Kaedan.

Uh, not really. You know that they were incredibly powerful Sith even before they were aware of the Phobos device, right? Vitiate didn't show that shit to just anybody! And they're sorcerers of almost unmatched ability, given their sheer length of study. An Esh-Kha drained a portion of power from one of them and was able to obliterate a giant statue by throwing someone into it. And there's all the crazy shit they pull in the game like bringing people/beasts back to life.

Dude, he single-handedly killed a hundred Mando's in one battle. That's a lot of elite mooks. The dude is pretty damn badass.

Well I think it's a very impressive show of skill, to fight an opponent of DC level for that long without slipping takes more than just stamina.

We just haven't got much info on her lightsaber skill. But there was that gal from the book that was slobbering all over Satele's saber, saying that she breathed violence of something. And that book takes place near the start of Swtor, so her feats from that book, which are great, stand up for her in that game.

"This battle was decided before you stepped aboard." "Explain yourself." "My plague isn't just a disease, it siphons power from it's victims blah blah." That he says the battle has already been decided indicates he's already used the rituals, otherwise that statement makes no sense. When he says soon he'll be the most powerful force user ever he's just talking about him infecting more Jedi or channeling more power from them. But he was obviously already channeling the power before the Consular boarded. He knew she was coming, why wouldn't he perform the rituals?

Cool.

Proof that it was similar? Like Mace, his level is unsubstantiated.

I guess that's fair. I'm doing the same by power scaling the Hero off of the guys I mentioned.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, well there's clearly a big difference between fresh off the boat and the end of Tython.

Remember that the Hero was thought advanced enough to have a padawan by the end of Coruscant (minor prodigy, lmao).
Not really. Both were already towards the end of their tutelage before the game even begins. Kira became the HoT's Padawan to teach both to let go of emotional attachments. She's already learned everything else. Part of the reason I don't agree with female HoT as much, given the obvious bait. A Padawan if the same age just falls right into your lap, and voiced by Laura Bailey. Riiight.