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The three Cins are meditating in one of the big Jedi Temple training rooms. The KOTOR crew is out for blood and launches an all-out assault on the Drallig trio.

This is Atton Rand during his days as a Jedi hunter under Revan/Malak's empire. Canderous circa his days as an enforcer on Taris. HK-47 during his time with Darth Revan, assassination protocols set to kill the Dralligs.

Who comes out on top?

1 Cin Drallig can take this.

I'd back HK over Drallig.

Atton could probably take it with prep and probably Canderous couldn't do it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd back HK over Drallig.

Atton could probably take it with prep and probably Canderous couldn't do it.


Cin Drallig can take Grievous HK gets wrecked, as do Atton and Canderous.

Drallig can't ****ing take Grievous, lol.

Grievous would rip Drallig's ******* apart.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Cin Drallig can take Grievous HK gets wrecked, as do Atton and Canderous.

Cin is nowhere near Mandalore the Ultimate, who is the only person HK-47's assassination protocol failed against IIRC.

Canderous will become Mandalore later on, but I picked the Taris version as he's younger and probably a better fighter at that point.

Atton was a Jedi Hunter, who by definition are "beings who are particularly adept at killing Jedi." Atton was part of the effort to convert Jedi to the side of the Sith, so he probably had loads of experience taking down force users. He also states in convos that dealing with Jedi was actually pretty easy (for someone like him, a force sensitive trained to take down Jedi, it probably was).

Oh and HK was a Jedi Hunter as well: "Answer: Select grenades, sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges. Mines are also effective, as many Jedi will run to meet you in hand to hand combat. Silly Jedi."

So team might lose, but they're definitely taking a Drallig or two down with them

Originally posted by Nephthys
Drallig can't ****ing take Grievous, lol.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Grievous would rip Drallig's ******* apart.

Except Drallig is stated to be capable of just that by the man who made Grievous. His feat against Vader may be lame, but the man is Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, a master of the Seven Forms, and held in high regard by Darth Tyranus. He mops the floor with these three.

At least Atton has actually faced Jedi and lived. Drallig doesn't even have that. In fact, every single other combatant here has.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd back HK over Drallig.

You people actually think these mooks have a chance against one of the few in the Order Dooku believes Grievous will be no match for?

http://img.pandawhale.com/53239-jerry-seinfeld-Im-out-gif-0qdn.gif

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You people actually think these mooks have a chance against one of the few in the Order Dooku believes Grievous will be no match for?

http://img.pandawhale.com/53239-jerry-seinfeld-Im-out-gif-0qdn.gif

HK-47 alone put up a decent fight against 4 end-of-story heroes in SWTOR

Originally posted by Hero of Python
Cin is nowhere near Mandalore the Ultimate,

Uh, good luck proving that.



Much better equipped as the Preserver, though.

Also, Atton Rand being competition for a Jedi Battlemaster of any sort is laughable.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, good luck proving that.



Much better equipped as the Preserver, though.

Also, Atton Rand being competition for a Jedi Battlemaster of any sort is laughable.

Sure, but Canderous mentions to the Exile several times that he's not the warrior he used to be due to age.

To your first point, it's just deduction. HK-47 (who was stopped by Mandalore) killed countless Jedi, and it's likely one of them was on Cin's level. If not, that's still a better feat than anything Cin did, as he died in his first fight against a Jedi.

We know that Mandalore the Ultimate was somewhere between Jedi Malak and Revan, which is pretty damn impressive. Cin might be there too, but then again, "Battlemaster" is a title and it doesn't necessarily mean he's as good as any other Jedi at actual fighting.

When did HK ever kill any Jedi? Before you bring up him having knowledge of killing Jedi...ok great, but that doesn't mean he's killed any. He's a droid, they can be programmed with knowledge ya know....unless I've missed something, there isn't any source saying he killed countless Jedi. He was just used as an assassin droid by Revan.

Now he could have killed Jedi sure, but nothing has been stated as such and if he has, we can't just assume that they were Jedi of high caliber or anything. Besides he didn't face the SWTOR protagonists alone in either fight, he had help in the form of Foundry droids and auto turrets aboard Malgus' space station.

Also Battlemaster is more than just a title, the guys are some of the deadliest individuals in the galaxy with a blade, the most physically dangerous of all the Jedi, so on and so forth.

Also I'm not sure why it's a slight against Cin to him dying against Anakin, who was able to best Dooku via tapping into his rage, which Anakin was during the Temple attack, harassing his rage and being more ruthless with his moves.

No HK had help with using the Foundry Droids against the Strike Team, play through the Foundry again and you'll see that.

Also that quote doesn't mean anything, yes he helped the Exile defeat the Sith Triumvirate....ok so? So did the other Exile's companions, that's nothing exclusive to HK.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
No HK had help with using the Foundry Droids against the Strike Team, play through the Foundry again and you'll see that.

Also that quote doesn't mean anything, yes he helped the Exile defeat the Sith Triumvirate....ok so? So did the other Exile's companions, that's nothing exclusive to HK.
Yes, all companions of Exile may have helped her but likely in different ways.

HK-47's involvement is official and his specialization is combat. It is likely that Exile utilized HK-47 and another for combat related purposes.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Except Drallig is stated to be capable of just that by the man who made Grievous. His feat against Vader may be lame, but the man is Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, a master of the Seven Forms, and held in high regard by Darth Tyranus. He mops the floor with these three.

Pfft, it's been decade/s since Dooku even met Drallig, he doesn't know how good he is at the time. Drallig is old and who knows how good he is against non-duelists.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
When did HK ever kill any Jedi? Before you bring up him having knowledge of killing Jedi...ok great, but that doesn't mean he's killed any. He's a droid, they can be programmed with knowledge ya know....unless I've missed something, there isn't any source saying he killed countless Jedi. He was just used as an assassin droid by Revan.

Now he could have killed Jedi sure, but nothing has been stated as such and if he has, we can't just assume that they were Jedi of high caliber or anything. Besides he didn't face the SWTOR protagonists alone in either fight, he had help in the form of Foundry droids and auto turrets aboard Malgus' space station.

Also Battlemaster is more than just a title, the guys are some of the deadliest individuals in the galaxy with a blade, the most physically dangerous of all the Jedi, so on and so forth.

Also I'm not sure why it's a slight against Cin to him dying against Anakin, who was able to best Dooku via tapping into his rage, which Anakin was during the Temple attack, harassing his rage and being more ruthless with his moves.

An earlier HK model defeated/was a great fight for Jarael in the comics. And she was an incredibly talented fighter who could match MandoWars Malak. HK is far better than the other models.

Cin Drallig held off an enraged Darth Vader and his Clones throughout a decent length of the temple. Meaning that for at least a good five or six minutes he held off a better version of the Jedi that killed Dooku in far less time.

Cin Drallig is also put over Shaak Ti as a swordsman in the Revenge of the Sith novel, a character much more skilled than Atton Rand or Canderous for certain. HK-47 will be a problem but he isn't carrying this.

Cin is no average Jedi, as should be common sense.

Wasn't Drallig stomped with one hand while Vader choked out Bene with the other?

The novel states something very different.

Quote?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Cin Drallig held off an enraged Darth Vader and his Clones throughout a decent length of the temple. Meaning that for at least a good five or six minutes he held off a better version of the Jedi that killed Dooku in far less time.

Cin Drallig is also put over Shaak Ti as a swordsman in the Revenge of the Sith novel, a character much more skilled than Atton Rand or Canderous for certain. HK-47 will be a problem but he isn't carrying this.

Cin is no average Jedi, as should be common sense.

No he didn't.

Vader beat him in a short exchange, a few attacks. As stated in sources.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The novel states something very different. In RotS we see in the hologram Anakin choking Bene with one hand and battering Drallig, briefly. But yeah, quote?

"Stone-faced, Obi-Wan watched younglings run into the room, fleeing a
storm of blasterfire; he watched Cin Drallig and a pair of teenage
Padawans-was that Whie, the boy Yoda had brought to Vjun?-backing into the
scene, blades whirling, cutting down the advancing clone troopers with
deflected bolts. He watched a lightsaber blade flick into the shot, cutting down first
one Padawan, then the other. He watched the brisk stride of a caped figure
who hacked through Drallig's shoulder, then stood aside as the old Troll
fell dying to let the rest of the clones blast the children to shreds."
-Revenge of the Sith

It does say something very different.

Its even less of a fight.

And to back up my previous post:

http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/dralli10.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pfft, it's been decade/s since Dooku even met Drallig, he doesn't know how good he is at the time. Drallig is old and who knows how good he is against non-duelists.


He's mentioned in the same breath as Mace and Obi-Wan. Anakin defeated Drallig in 10-15 seconds. Dooku defeats Ventress in around that amount of time, but no one gives Ventress shit. Anakin is likely at the peak of power at this point, losing to him is hardly a negative. If anything its a feat for Anakin.

Double post.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He's mentioned in the same breath as Mace and Obi-Wan. Anakin defeated Drallig in 10-15 seconds. Dooku defeats Ventress in around that amount of time, but no one gives Ventress shit. Anakin is likely at the peak of power at this point, losing to him is hardly a negative. If anything its a feat for Anakin.
How are you estimating the time duration of Drallig's clash with Anakin. It was brief bout and Drallig got owned. Nothing impressive here.

Is there not an entire section describing how Cin Drallig led a final defense that moved into the room of a thousand fountains until Vader cut through his shoulder?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How are you estimating the time duration of Drallig's clash with Anakin. It was brief bout and Drallig got owned. Nothing impressive here.

It doesn't really matter how long the clash lasted. The point is that his lost to Anakin is a feat for Anakin not a negative for Drallig. Malgus cut down Kao Cen Darach in around the same time once he was bloodlusted, and thats far before his peak.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He's mentioned in the same breath as Mace and Obi-Wan. Anakin defeated Drallig in 10-15 seconds. Dooku defeats Ventress in around that amount of time, but no one gives Ventress shit. Anakin is likely at the peak of power at this point, losing to him is hardly a negative. If anything its a feat for Anakin.

Dooku beat Ventress with the Force though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku beat Ventress with the Force though.

Dooku and Skywalker have different fighting styles. Anakin would cream Ventress in seconds by that point with saber prowess alone because of his raw power.

Maybe. I recall her getting a few kicks on him even without a saber in their last fight though. Just pointing out that Dooku didn't stomp her in sabers.

But the point is still that Drallig only has Dooku's opinion that he's any good. The only fight we see him in is when he gets creamed by Skywalker. And personally I think a few people could do better than that. Shaak Ti for instance.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dooku and Skywalker have different fighting styles. Anakin would cream Ventress in seconds by that point with saber prowess alone because of his raw power. She'd do a hell of a lot better than Drallig, lmfao.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe. I recall her getting a few kicks on him even without a saber in their last fight though. Just pointing out that Dooku didn't stomp her in sabers.

But the point is still that Drallig only has Dooku's opinion that he's any good. The only fight we see him in is when he gets creamed by Skywalker. And personally I think a few people could do better than that. Shaak Ti for instance.

Cin was noted as being better than Shaak Ti during the Temple attack, and also marked a priority threat by Vader due to his skill. Ti had no such thing on her.

I thought Shaak Ti was called the temples greatest swordsmaster during the attack?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought Shaak Ti was called the temples greatest swordsmaster during the attack?

No that was Cin.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wow...case withdrawn. I own the ROTS Visual dictionary and it says "Even the Temple's finest swordmaster is no match for Anakin Skywalker and the stormtroopers of the 501st legion"...except it says it under the profile for Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. Stass was off world so...

Originally posted by Nephthys


Yet Cin also in the above panel of the book on the same page, is noted as the Jedi Swordmaster. There's no mention of Ti and she never fought Anakin.

This is all semantics, but if he's a "swordmaster," that doesn't necessarily mean he's a master of fighting with swords, does it?

I mean, you can have Phil Jackson be the "zenmaster of basketball," but he can't go out on the court and beat NBA players at their own game. He's a teacher.

So maybe Cin is the same way? Perhaps he has full understanding of every form and can teach them, but isn't exactly the greatest of fighters himself?

Like sure, he's got the technical stuff down pat, which is why Gillard gives him a high rating. But maybe he just isn't used to actual combat. He never fought in any battles during the Clone Wars, did he? IIRC, he was basically head of security of the Jedi Temple the entire time.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yet Cin also in the above panel of the book on the same page, is noted as the Jedi Swordmaster. There's no mention of Ti and she never fought Anakin.

Sorry man, but I believe Stark over you. Nothing personal. I'm pretty sure Shaak Ti did fight Anakin as well so that doesn't help.

Cin is noted as one of the best lightsaber duelists in the order, he certainly is one of the best fighters to be sure.

Sure he was Temple security, but that doesn't mean he can't fight.

Also yes, it does mean he's a master with a lightsaber...that's kind of a given.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry man, but I believe Stark over you. Nothing personal. I'm pretty sure Shaak Ti did fight Anakin as well so that doesn't help.

She didn't, there's no source saying she did.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Cin is noted as one of the best lightsaber duelists in the order, he certainly is one of the best fighters to be sure.

Sure he was Temple security, but that doesn't mean he can't fight.

Also yes, it does mean he's a master with a lightsaber...that's kind of a given.

Of course, but I'm saying is he a master of "fighting" with a saber. You can be a great martial artist, but be terrible in a real fight. And you can be a great head of security, and still be pretty crappy at actually providing security yourself.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
Of course, but I'm saying is he a master of "fighting" with a saber. You can be a great martial artist, but be terrible in a real fight. And you can be a great head of security, and still be pretty crappy at actually providing security yourself.

Considering that Battlemasters are noted to be the most physically dangerous of all the Jedi, them being some of the most deadliest individuals in the galaxy and where Cin stands among the Jedi and recieving praise from the likes of Dooku.

Yeah...why wouldn't he be a master of fighting? You're acting as if just because he hasn't shown to fight other than against Vader, that he wouldn't even be able to best a Padawan or Youngling in a fight.

Again just because Anakin stomped him, doesn't mean it's a slight against him. If you really wanna go into it, Cin actually gave Anakin a hard fight in the ROTS game. showing his prowess.

At any rate, I don't think this would be much an issue for the battle at hand.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Considering that Battlemasters are noted to be the most physically dangerous of all the Jedi, them being some of the most deadliest individuals in the galaxy and where Cin stands among the Jedi and recieving praise from the likes of Dooku.

Yeah...why wouldn't he be a master of fighting? You're acting as if just because he hasn't shown to fight other than against Vader, that he wouldn't even be able to best a Padawan or Youngling in a fight.

Again just because Anakin stomped him, doesn't mean it's a slight against him. If you really wanna go into it, Cin actually gave Anakin a hard fight in the ROTS game. showing his prowess.

At any rate, I don't think this would be much an issue for the battle at hand.

Haha, I replayed that Cin battle a bunch of times before I even saw the movie. I thought he'd play a big role in the temple invasion. Boy was I disappointed. That game also spoiled the Sidious scene for me...I was waiting for a big Anakin vs Mace fight

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yet Cin also in the above panel of the book on the same page, is noted as the Jedi Swordmaster. There's no mention of Ti and she never fought Anakin.


You sure about that? I'm 90% sure that the swordmaster part is under Shaak Ti and Stass Allie's profile. I do recall Drallig being on that page though I'll give you that. I don't have the book with me at school though :-/

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You sure about that? I'm 90% sure that the swordmaster part is under Shaak Ti and Stass Allie's profile. I do recall Drallig being on that page though I'll give you that. I don't have the book with me at school though :-/

It is under Shaak and Allie, but just because it is, doesn't mean it was referring to Ti. Plus...it didn't even mention Allie or Ti at all in the paragraph.

There is a second source which repeated that Drallig was the best Jedi present at the temple, but I can't remember what it's called. Hoping that rings a bell with someone.

The "source" for years/months for Shaak Ti fighting Anakin was the TFU databank. As it turned out, it said nothing about Ti fighting Anakin. Just that she managed and led the temple's defence. There have been some very wacky interpretations of the quote, people going as far as to say Ti had a prolonged fight with Anakin, but the reality is, as far as that source, and any others go, to my knowledge, Ti didn't clash blades with Anakin during Operation Knightfall.

I think even without explicit mention of Drallig being the best swordsmen in the temple at the time (again, I'm sure it is said somewhere), we can deduce with what we already have well enough - the wording from the visual dictionary "swordmaster" being used to reference both Drallig and the best swordsman in the temple suggests it's referring to Drallig, and not some other miscellaneous swordmaster that was present. Then there's the fact Drallig out of all of the Jedi present, was marked as a priority target solely because of his lightsaber skill. Ti was present in the temple, and Anakin was aware of this, yet Drallig was the priority. Pretty telling.

Conclusion: Drallig was the best Jedi in the temple at the time, better than Shaak Ti, and Ti didn't ever cross blades with Anakin in that instance. You can accuse me of hating Shaak Ti all you want, that's the conclusion I've come to based on what I've seen and found.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
It is under Shaak and Allie, but just because it is, doesn't mean it was referring to Ti. Plus...it didn't even mention Allie or Ti at all in the paragraph.

...so we are to assume it mentions the obscure blurry hologram in the right hand corner of the page instead of the two HD Jedi Masters in the center of the page. Especially when it's positioned RIGHT UNDER those pictures? Dude come on now.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
...so we are to assume it mentions the obscure blurry hologram in the right hand corner of the page instead of the two HD Jedi Masters in the center of the page. Especially when it's positioned RIGHT UNDER those pictures? Dude come on now.

Yeah...because why not? All evidence points to Cin being the greater swordsman than anyone out of the whole Temple during the attack.

Why do you think he was marked a priority threat by Vader to be eliminated?

Also Ti isn't a noted Swordmaster, she's an expert with a blade to be sure but no Swordmaster.

Plus on that same page, it does mention Cin as the Swordmaster in the bit next to the picture of him against Anakin.

Didn't Anakin interrogate a Jedi guarding the Temple's entrance for the whereabouts of Ti? If that's the case then she was obviously a priority target.

Hey Zen can you post a scan of the page?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nothing personal. I'm pretty sure Shaak Ti did fight Anakin as well so that doesn't help.

Based on what?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It doesn't really matter how long the clash lasted. The point is that his lost to Anakin is a feat for Anakin not a negative for Drallig. Malgus cut down Kao Cen Darach in around the same time once he was bloodlusted, and thats far before his peak.
Duration matters.

Drallig's loss to Anakin certainly represents a feat/accomplishment for Anakin but we don't have a clue about Drallig's prowess apart from hype. We need more then the hype for Drallig to determine his standing in the grand scheme of things.

Darach had had a massive fight prior to Malgus's anger-oriented charge; the latter was able to fuel his power with anger. Also, Malgus was already among the greatest warriors of the Empire at that time (so he wasn't a rookiee or something and statements such as "far before his peak" are baseless). Malgus was already a seasoned warrior, young, physically strong and perfect, and was able to utilize his immense raw power effectively.

Aside from Malgus's power and experience, their is ample on-screen evidence of Darach's amazing dueling ability and impressive raw power.

I am not doubting Drallig's capability in combat but he is no Darach.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Didn't Anakin interrogate a Jedi guarding the Temple's entrance for the whereabouts of Ti? If that's the case then she was obviously a priority target.

Or he could have been pissed at her when she pretty much flat out said, he was useless when Anakin wanted to go help Mace saying and I quote.

"Anakin, these masters are the best in the Order. What could you possible do?"

Translating to..

"Lol you're a noob and worthless..."

Plus no where is it said that Ti was marked as a threat.

Also sure Ares.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Wolfninja/76_zps1swxx3xf.png

http://replygif.net/thumbnail/715.gif

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Also sure Ares.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Wolfninja/76_zps1swxx3xf.png

Thanks Zen. That's clearly not a bio and "Temple's finest swordmaster" could refer to, well, anyone at the temple at the time. However, the fact that Drallig is shown battling Vader and is called a swordmaster on that very same page makes me inclined it is referring to him.

Zenwolf is right, peeps. The quote is referring to Drallig, and Shaak Ti never fought Anakin.

I guess Shaak Ti sucks now.

Its under the big bold heading called Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. It even directly refers to Stass Allie who is offworld. Are you people blind?

It never once refers to either Jedi in the text. It's merely talking about Operation Knightfall. It even echoes the Cin Drallig passage saying Anakin and his troopers kill a swordmaster.

We've been talking a lot about Cin and HK-47, but lets not forget the other two.

In more than a few threads, people on this forum have said Canderous could easily take on a Jedi. Here's one where people think he'd beat Ki Adi Mundi:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t394043.html

Beyond that, Canderous was Mandalore the Ultimate's right hand man, and Ultimate beat Malak in single combat. In the years after, Canderous would have become even more powerful.

Then there's Atton, a master assassin who would use every dirty trick in the book (including poison and other methods) to bring down someone like Drallig. Not to mention he was force sensitive, though I don't know how much that influenced his work under Revan/Malak.

Even if we assume Cin was everything people say he is, that puts him maybe a notch below Council members. I still think it's a tough fight for his side, especially since his war experience is far below that of his opponents.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
Canderous was Mandalore the Ultimate's right hand man

Uh, what? Where is this from? If anyone was Mandalore's right hand man it seems to have been Cassus Fett.

The only thing special about Canderous is that he knew Revan. That was enough to make most Mandalorians cream their pants. Then Revan gave him a helmet to seal the deal.

Yeah, Canderous wasn't that high up in the ranks. He was among the greatest fighters though.

He didn't really compare to Cassus Fett though, who is easily among the greatest tacticians in history.

Originally posted by ares834
Uh, what? Where is this from? If anyone was Mandalore's right hand man it seems to have been Cassus Fett.

My mistake, you're right, I got the two mixed in my head. I also confused the Mandalore Canderous got his armor from as being the Ultimate.

Still, he did hold the rank of Commander in the Mandalorian military, which is rather impressive. And he looked at Revan as a worthy adversary (not unsurprising seeing as he single-handedly won a couple of battles in the Mandalorian wars -- see his sidequest with Jagi and the battle of Althir). And I think we can all agree Revan is at least a tier or two above Cin Drallig.

Not saying that Canderous would stand a chance against Revan, but I'd at least put his skills and abilities above your standard Jedi. Let's not forget that he was always amped up by stims in battle as well.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah, Canderous wasn't that high up in the ranks. He was among the greatest fighters though.

He didn't really compare to Cassus Fett though, who is easily among the greatest tacticians in history.

According to the wiki Canderous reached Commander and then later received command over a portion of Clan Ordo.

So going off this ranking system:

http://s4.zetaboards.com/star_wars_rp_sp/topic/8545532/1/

Canderous would have had the 8th highest rank out of 12 in the Mandalorian Navy.

And then according to this source:

http://maanade.enjin.com/forum/m/5922230/viewthread/5858912-mandalorian-military-ranks

The rank of "Clan Leader," or General, which he attained after the Battle of Althir, is just below Mandalore himself, at least as far as the Mandalorian army goes.

So by the time Revan won, Canderous was a Commander in the Navy (far below Casus Fett's status) and a General on the ground (second to Mandalore). How they would have hashed out their seniority is anybody's guess.

But either way, Canderous was clearly a badass. You know he's always there if you want something done right.

Originally posted by ares834
It never once refers to either Jedi in the text. It's merely talking about Operation Knightfall. It even echoes the Cin Drallig passage saying Anakin and his troopers kill a swordmaster.


You're grasping at straws here. Why bother bolding Stass Allie and Shaak Ti if the passage directly below wasn't about them?

TEAM 2