Increase in exorcism demand ascribed to 'Pope Francis' effect

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Star428
Pope Francis encourages more exorcisms to take place:



http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Pope-Francis-encourages-exorcisms-devil/2015/04/13/id/638216/?ns_mail_uid=94127627&ns_mail_job=1616660_041420

Tzeentch
What's your opinion on this development, Star?

Star428
If you're asking me if I believe in demons and/or the devil then my answer is most certainly yes. I've stated my beliefs on this subject in many other threads. However, I think genuine demon possession is extremely rare but it has happened on multiple occasions throughout history. Jesus Himself exorcised many unclean spirits/demons from many different people. The film the Exorcist is based on a true story too of a young boy who had a demon exorcised from him in the 40's.


Ghosts, I do not believe in but demons I do.

riv6672
As a believer in the supernatural, i think this should have been kept quiet.
Why?
Because many more of these cases are people with psychological problems than are actual possessions. Todays "smart marks" are going to insist on spinning heads and pea soup barf or get out, every time a priest is called in, and cry bullshit when that doesnt happen, regardless of wether the priest's presence actually helped.

Star428
I think that the Pope encouraging more exorcisms is a bad idea, nonetheless. It will only lead to more hoaxes and people falsely claiming they are possessed just so they can get attention. I think declaring someone genuinely possessed should only happen if the strictest requirement criteria for them being so are met. Otherwise, every Tom, Dick, and Harry will be claiming they're possessed because they're hoping they will be put on the news and become famous.

Star428
Originally posted by riv6672
As a believer in the supernatural, i think this should have been kept quiet.
Why?
Because many more of these cases are people with psychological problems than are actual possessions. Todays "smart marks" are going to insist on spinning heads and pea soup barf or get out, every time a priest is called in, and cry bullshit when that doesnt happen, regardless of wether the priest's presence actually helped.


My thoughts exactly.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by riv6672
Todays "smart marks" are going to insist on spinning heads and pea soup barf or get out, every time a priest is called in, and cry bullshit when that doesnt happen, regardless of wether the priest's presence actually helped.

Originally posted by Star428
My thoughts exactly.



confused

Translate to English, please?

riv6672
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
confused

Translate to English, please?
A thought is the result or product of either a spontaneous or willed act of thinking.

Bentley
Weird statement. The previous pope did build a new exorcism department if I recall correctly. For the propose of training priests and dealing with odd cases.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Star428
Pope Francis encourages more exorcisms to take place:...

Are we still in the dark ages?

Bentley
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are we still in the dark ages?

Find a document attesting more exorcisms were needed in the Dark Ages or stop criticizing medieval culture without proof.






stick out tongue

riv6672
^^^OMG you frikkin' KILLED me with that one...laughing yes laughing

Mindship
Exorcisms. Youtube.

Match made in heaven.

Ushgarak
Renamed for accuracy.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bentley
Find a document attesting more exorcisms were needed in the Dark Ages or stop criticizing medieval culture without proof.
stick out tongue

Prove that demons exist in the first place. :P If demons do not exist (and they don't) then exorcisms are never needed.

riv6672
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
(and they don't)
Proof?

Let me save you time. You can provide none.
Advice: lighten up and stop belittling others' beliefs, Shaky. It reflects badly on any viable arguments you DO make in these threads.

Star428
Wouldn't bother wasting my time with Shak if I were u, riv.

riv6672
Yeah, i guess. Not trying to be a dick, it just gets old.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by riv6672
Proof?...

Proof doesn't matter to you?

Exorcism is barbaric. Many times people who are mentally ill are denied proper medical care for the equivalent of witch doctors performing ceremonies.

All I want is a little proof. Otherwise it just doesn't fly.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by riv6672
Proof?




I'm curious as to why YOU believe in demons.

It's part and parcel of Christianity; I wasn't aware Asatru had any claim to them.

I've seen the Asatru terms Aesir and Vanir; both types of beings would be considered demons in Christianity (nearly all gods from other religions are), but somehow I don't think Asatru itself would consider the likes of Odin, or Thor, or Freya as demons within its own belief system. (Maybe Loki might be considered one, but, I'm not sure Loki occupies a place in the religion anywhere similar to the one he holds in Norse Mythology ... )

Explain, please.

riv6672
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Proof doesn't matter to you?

Exorcism is barbaric. Many times people who are mentally ill are denied proper medical care for the equivalent of witch doctors performing ceremonies.

All I want is a little proof. Otherwise it just doesn't fly.
Nice.
Shaky, you pretty much post the same way in every well visited thread.
You turn a good back and forth, between people of differing beliefs into you vs them/your beliefs are all false/show me proof.
Thats not an opinion, its fact.
It brings down threads for no better reason than, i think, to stroke your own ego.
Just pointing it out, not telling you to stop.
You undermine your own credibility.

Apologies, Star, just wanted to finish this particular back and forth. Subject dropped.

As to the topic, if anyone can see an upside for the church in this direction, i'd like to hear it. I cant really think of anything that outweighs giving more ammunition to nay sayers.

Bentley
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Proof doesn't matter to you?

Exorcism is barbaric. Many times people who are mentally ill are denied proper medical care for the equivalent of witch doctors performing ceremonies.

All I want is a little proof. Otherwise it just doesn't fly.

You surely know that the Catholic Church only practices exorcism in cases where the psychological method has been throughly exhausted and in which external elements push you into a context of supernatural happenings (as the very article on top said, ancient languages are spoken, etc.).

They have documentation proving that the psychologists failed to heal the patient too and that drugs prove to be inefective, it cannot be accessed by the public because medical information is private. Again, this doesn't prove demons exist or that exorcism helped anyone, but muddles the Church vs science angle you imply in your post.

The Catholic Church is aware psychological problems exist, psychologists are aware that some mental illnesses are better threated by faith than science. Let's not live in a "modern" world of prejudice shall we? thumb up

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by riv6672
Nice.
Shaky, you pretty much post the same way in every well visited thread.
You turn a good back and forth, between people of differing beliefs into you vs them/your beliefs are all false/show me proof.
Thats not an opinion, its fact.
It brings down threads for no better reason than, i think, to stroke your own ego.
Just pointing it out, not telling you to stop.
You undermine your own credibility.

Apologies, Star, just wanted to finish this particular back and forth. Subject dropped.

As to the topic, if anyone can see an upside for the church in this direction, i'd like to hear it. I cant really think of anything that outweighs giving more ammunition to nay sayers.

How does attacking me answer my question?
You didn't further any discussion. All you did was attack. You are a troll. You are the one causing the problem.

Now go away!!!

Shakyamunison

Bentley

riv6672
Ah, well, i tried.

Anyhow, what does the church hope to gain here, really? Anyone have a theory, or read anything?

Ushgarak
Guys, could we not knock shaky for bringing his questions in here? You don't have to reply to them but he is on-topic and bringing a relevant view, and you have no place criticising that.

riv6672
Oookay, this is strange. Apparently its sort of the Pope's fault that the need for exorcisms has been on the rise.



There's more to it, interesting reading too. Excerpt above. Link below.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/exorcism-what-does-the-boom-in-demand-tell-us-about-pope-franciss-catholic-church-10176776.html

Bentley
Originally posted by riv6672
Oookay, this is strange. Apparently its sort of the Pope's fault that the need for exorcisms has been on the rise.



There's more to it, interesting reading too. Excerpt above. Link below.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/exorcism-what-does-the-boom-in-demand-tell-us-about-pope-franciss-catholic-church-10176776.html

I think the relationship established is interesting.

If we name the devil then he becomes more active in possessions. From a psychological point of view it makes all kinds of sense, it could be that the mentions themselves are ingrained into the believers and they become more compelled to act as if they were possessed. However, that assumes that people who get possessed are actually hearing and paying attention to what the Pope is currently saying, the same influence should happen when any public figure, religious or moral, established this kind of speech about the devil.

Anyways, from a believers point of view, how would you find a rationale behind these possessions -assuming they actually happen and that there is an actual relationship between the statements or what not-.

riv6672
As i'm not the most well spoken person on religious matters, i'll fall back on a quote.
"I dont do evil things because i believe in the devil. I believe in the devil because i do evil things."

To a mentally ill person, that statement provide a kind of sick rationale for
Their actions/problems.
Something thats overlooked here is the psychological training these specialists have.
The rituals, imagery etc. of the church are just one set of tools in their tool bag they can use to help these people.

Genesis-Soldier
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Proof doesn't matter to you?

Exorcism is barbaric. Many times people who are mentally ill are denied proper medical care for the equivalent of witch doctors performing ceremonies.

All I want is a little proof. Otherwise it just doesn't fly.

i do agree with this but (and feel free to comment on this) what is your idea of "demons", i personally dont believe in the whole underworld speal. my thoughts are that "demons" are a twisted form of individual Psyche brought forth by an act of trauma or when your brain just snaps.

exorcism is quite barbaric and often used on the mentally ill as it is easier to claim demonic possession.

hell is Literally in our heads and souls and our demons can come out to play and control us from the inside because thats where they are, inside us

Genesis-Soldier
demons are our thoughs and the wills we never knew existed... or just feared

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Bentley


I think the relationship established is interesting ...

from a believer's point of view, how would you find a rationale behind these possessions?





Matthew 7:21-23Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:21-23&version=AKJV

Star428
Originally posted by Genesis-Soldier
demons are our thoughs and the wills we never knew existed... or just feared


That's one of the meanings of the word, yes, but the original and true meaning is that they're the fallen angels. And yes, they're very real.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bentley
I was replying to your shouts about barbarism or Dark ageism that were, in the context, unwarranted. That's all.

Feel free to jump to every religious thread asking for (impossible?) proof, you're free to do so thumb up

That is just my opinion. I call it like I see it. And as far as proof is concerned. There are some things I believe that have no proof, but they require no proof.

The only reason people are upset when asked for proof, is because they believe in proof. If proof was irrelevant, then no one would be upset.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Genesis-Soldier
i do agree with this but (and feel free to comment on this) what is your idea of "demons", i personally dont believe in the whole underworld speal. my thoughts are that "demons" are a twisted form of individual Psyche brought forth by an act of trauma or when your brain just snaps.

exorcism is quite barbaric and often used on the mentally ill as it is easier to claim demonic possession.

hell is Literally in our heads and souls and our demons can come out to play and control us from the inside because thats where they are, inside us

We are in agreement. Demons are part of mythology. However, mythology is very important to everyday life. The idea of demons in Buddhism mythology is more life those little things that stop you from succeeding in life.

Bentley
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is just my opinion. I call it like I see it. And as far as proof is concerned. There are some things I believe that have no proof, but they require no proof.

The only reason people are upset when asked for proof, is because they believe in proof. If proof was irrelevant, then no one would be upset.

I agree that there is some space in a debate that asks for putting people in face of their contradictions.

Should I defend my witty reply about asking for historical middle age documents? Because honestly that was mostly a jab and a way to muddle the idea that the Dark Ages were all that "primitive" -there is a part of true on this but it gets way overplayed. If I wanted to debate seriously about it, you still didn't focus on the relevant part of my request and tried to dismiss it with a dialectic distraction wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bentley
I agree that there is some space in a debate that asks for putting people in face of their contradictions.

Should I defend my witty reply about asking for historical middle age documents? Because honestly that was mostly a jab and a way to muddle the idea that the Dark Ages were all that "primitive" -there is a part of true on this but it gets way overplayed. If I wanted to debate seriously about it, you still didn't focus on the relevant part of my request and tried to dismiss it with a dialectic distraction wink

I was distracted. Sorry.

riv6672
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm curious as to why YOU believe in demons.

Explain, please.
Short answer:
I'm pretty open minded.

Genesis-Soldier
myrhology is both an explanation of cultural beliefs : take athena, she is shown as a calm, methodical goddess who punishes Medusa and Aracnidea. Medusa was being raped by posiedion and was blamed for not being chaste and was hence forth turned into a gorgon. Aracnidea had beaten Athena in a weaving contest and out of jealousy athena punished her. the greeks saw men as philisophical and oorganised and literal, where they saw women as chaotic and irrational. mythology is also used to explain the unexplainable such as natural phenmenons. but saying all this the greek gods and mythology was based on the idea that the "human" body was most divine

The MISTER
If intelligent humans can succeed in staying under the radar and avoiding proof of their existence, how would anyone obtain and deliver proof of the existence of a being that is far more experienced (having been around since recorded history began) far more powerful, and invisible? Undeniable evidence of the existence of demons would interfere with their goals as it would cause humans to unite against a common inhuman enemy.
Demons would much rather destroy any such evidence and laugh at the people who need proof to believe anything and the ones who are incapable of presenting it. Shaky if you really want proof I suggest that you ask God instead of people. After all it is God that said ask and you shall receive.
I do wonder though if you were to experience proof would you actually share it with us here or just inexplicably stop posting. You're only human after all and most humans would be loathe to recant statements as strong as some of the ones that you've made.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by The MISTER
If intelligent humans can succeed in staying under the radar and avoiding proof of their existence, how would anyone obtain and deliver proof of the existence of a being that is far more experienced (having been around since recorded history began) far more powerful, and invisible? Undeniable evidence of the existence of demons would interfere with their goals as it would cause humans to unite against a common inhuman enemy.
Demons would much rather destroy any such evidence and laugh at the people who need proof to believe anything and the ones who are incapable of presenting it. Shaky if you really want proof I suggest that you ask God instead of people. After all it is God that said ask and you shall receive.
I do wonder though if you were to experience proof would you actually share it with us here or just inexplicably stop posting. You're only human after all and most humans would be loathe to recant statements as strong as some of the ones that you've made.

There is no proof of demons being real because they are not real. I could say that unicorns hide all evidence of their existence from humans, but does that make them real? No.

Demons are a part of mythology, and that is what they will always be. I wish I could free people like you from these destructive beliefs, but I cannot.

The MISTER
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no proof of demons being real because they are not real. I could say that unicorns hide all evidence of their existence from humans, but does that make them real? No.

Demons are a part of mythology, and that is what they will always be. I wish I could free people like you from these destructive beliefs, but I cannot. In ten thousand years someone could say that you never existed. They could state that there is no proof that you existed and therefore you absolutely never existed. Highly unlikely that this argument would happen but regardless the person claiming that you did indeed exist would be correct. The person requiring proof would likely feel sorry for the ignorant fellow who believes without proof but he would be wrong nevertheless.

Humans are intelligent and sometimes their intelligence does them a disservice and makes them gods in their individual minds. If a human allows it to their intelligence will make them aware that they could spend the rest of their days learning new things and still die extremely ignorant about the universe they inhabit.
Just because you say that there aren't demons doesn't it any more true than if a 100 year old scholar said it.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by The MISTER
In ten thousand years someone could say that you never existed. They could state that there is no proof that you existed and therefore you absolutely never existed. Highly unlikely that this argument would happen but regardless the person claiming that you did indeed exist would be correct. The person requiring proof would likely feel sorry for the ignorant fellow who believes without proof but he would be wrong nevertheless.

Humans are intelligent and sometimes their intelligence does them a disservice and makes them gods in their individual minds. If a human allows it to their intelligence will make them aware that they could spend the rest of their days learning new things and still die extremely ignorant about the universe they inhabit.
Just because you say that there aren't demons doesn't it any more true than if a 100 year old scholar said it.
Yes, but where is the evidence for demons existing?

Even if there were no proof that demons don't exist, that in itself wouldn't be sufficient proof that they do exist.

Shakyamunison

Star428
Originally posted by The MISTER
If intelligent humans can succeed in staying under the radar and avoiding proof of their existence, how would anyone obtain and deliver proof of the existence of a being that is far more experienced (having been around since recorded history began) far more powerful, and invisible? Undeniable evidence of the existence of demons would interfere with their goals as it would cause humans to unite against a common inhuman enemy.
Demons would much rather destroy any such evidence and laugh at the people who need proof to believe anything and the ones who are incapable of presenting it. Shaky if you really want proof I suggest that you ask God instead of people. After all it is God that said ask and you shall receive.
I do wonder though if you were to experience proof would you actually share it with us here or just inexplicably stop posting. You're only human after all and most humans would be loathe to recant statements as strong as some of the ones that you've made.



thumb up



Thank you. Both for this and your subsequent post.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Star428
thumb up

Thank you.

Ya, thank you! The palm palms and skirt look good on you. big grin

The MISTER
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes, but where is the evidence for demons existing?

Even if there were no proof that demons don't exist, that in itself wouldn't be sufficient proof that they do exist. The major evidence for the existence of God, the devil, demons, and angels lies in the undeniable evidence of balance in the universe.

We could probably all agree that all existence could be brought down to the simple balance of ones and zeros, one representing existence and zero representing nonexistence.
Zero / nonexistence could maintain itself indefinitely but with the introduction of one / existence things become far more complex. Why is there a/an one/existence in the first place?

The only realistic answer is that there has always been a one and that one created the zero because if there had always been a zero things would have remained the same indefinitely.

This existence is as aware of itself as we are aware of ourselves, and we have evidence that self awareness lies within existence. When the big bang / creation began what did the universe expand into? If the universe contains all existence then it's only rational that it is expanding into an infinite amount of nonexistence.

God is all existences awareness. In the Bible it states that God hates an off balance repeatedly. Can there be light if dark doesn't exist? What is love where there has never been hate? If there is no wrong there can be no right, no up without a down and so on and so on.

The only holy texts that I have ever been introduced to that contain the balanced instruction to treat others how you want to be treated have been in the Bible and repeated multiple times by Jesus. To do so is right and to do otherwise is wrong consistently.

Jesus spoke of the existence of demons as well, and they even recognized Jesus according to the Bible. Demons and the devil give balance to God and the angels because it is God's will that there be balance within our existence.

God and his angels want to save people and want people to do what is right. The devil and his demons want to destroy people and want people to do what is wrong. This is balance and that balance is all the evidence I'll ever need.

The MISTER
Originally posted by Star428
thumb up



Thank you. Both for this and your subsequent post. Glad I can add to such an important subject. Demons are far more cunning than humans so I see a danger in dismissing them as fantasy.

The MISTER

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by The MISTER
You made an error here. The "No" part is totally incorrect and then you immediately contradicted it and agreed with me. Tighten up shaky I know you're ready to disagree with me but don't get sloppy rushing to object to my post. wink

That's the problem, you don't even know what I disagree with you on.

The MISTER
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That's the problem, you don't even know what I disagree with you on. shaky you a trip man!! rolling on floor laughing

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by The MISTER
shaky you a trip man!! rolling on floor laughing

What is it that I disagree with?

riv6672
Thread comes back to life after 16 days; maybe IT needs an exorcism. eek!

The MISTER
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What is it that I disagree with? Originally posted by The MISTER
Highly unlikely that this argument would happen but regardless the person claiming that you DID INDEED EXIST would be CORRECT.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No.

shaky you may not have meant to but you had me about to die (in a good way) with that one comment. I don't care that we don't always agree I have to say you're not one to back down and that can be a good trait sometimes. So is humility however as nobody knows everything! cool

Star428
Originally posted by riv6672
Thread comes back to life after 16 days; maybe IT needs an exorcism. eek!



There've been threads dead a lot longer than that, riv. Some guy in the comic book versus forum resurrected several threads that had been dead for over a decade!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by The MISTER
Originally posted by The MISTER
Highly unlikely that this argument would happen but regardless the person claiming that you DID INDEED EXIST would be CORRECT.



shaky you may not have meant to but you had me about to die (in a good way) with that one comment. I don't care that we don't always agree I have to say you're not one to back down and that can be a good trait sometimes. So is humility however as nobody knows everything! cool

I find this amusing, but off topic.

riv6672
Originally posted by Star428
There've been threads dead a lot longer than that, riv. Some guy in the comic book versus forum resurrected several threads that had been dead for over a decade!
But comics characters are always coming back from the dead. The saying was, "Only Bucky and Uncle Ben stay dead". And even that doesnt count any more!

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