Most Powerful Era?

Q99

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
KotOR is canonically the best, but probably SWTOR.

What, KotoR? Where they talk about how great Ancient Sith were in comparison to them? It has some badasses, but I don't think it's even in the running. There's a relatively small handful of major forceusers that we know, and while they have some badasses, they aren't even in contention with any in the top tier.

SWTOR certainly does have a whole ton of powerful Jedi and Sith, having both the largest Jedi order ever and the largest Sith order ever to recruit from.

And CW era, also known as the Golden Age of the Jedi, you have a large well-trained Jedi order with a good number of high-potential people, who the war helped sharpen. Includes a few of the strongest Jedi of all time.

FOTJ era certainly has a lot of powerhouses, though not as many total as TOR. The inclusion of multiple fully-trained Skywalker blood people, plus a couple other significant badasses, certainly puts them up there. Though the total size of the era is small- under 1k Jedi, very few Sith.

So, I'd say TOR/CW/FotJ, in that order.

ares834

KotOR was called a Golden Age of the Jedi, even more so than the PT.

Anyway, it depends on what the OP was asking. If he is wondering which has the best average force users it's undoubtedly NJO due to the smaller amount of Jedi compared to other eras and vast amounts of powerhouses.

Fated Xtasy

NJO in my opinion.

Col. Valerian

SWTOR without question, due to the sheer number of powerful Sith. The Jedi, meh. They have a handful of very good ones and a couple of top tier, but the Sith are the ones who make the era stand out above the rest.

I can't say PT mainly because there were very few Sith, but it comes as a close second because it does host some of the most powerful Jedi and a couple of the most powerful Sith in the mythos.

Trocity

Tough to say, but I feel like the TOTJ/OR era when Thon, Vodo, Arca, Nomi, Ulic, Kun, etc. lived was a powerful era and should get a little love here.

psmith81992

Originally posted by The Merchant
Prequel Trilogy

ahahahahaha

Q99

Originally posted by ares834
KotOR was called a Golden Age of the Jedi, even more so than the PT.

The PT Jedi were more numerous, the top end of their lineup was downright scary- Yoda, Anakin, Windu, Kenobi- plus they had a rather impressive rack of not-quite-that-badass-but-still-pretty-badass-masters, both in and out of the council.

Plus the Sith of the time, while few in number, were in turn quite good. Sidious, Dooku, Maul, and eventually Vader. Toss in Savage and Asajj for two strong understudies as well.

Originally posted by Trocity
Tough to say, but I feel like the TOTJ/OR era when Thon, Vodo, Arca, Nomi, Ulic, Kun, etc. lived was a powerful era and should get a little love here.

Well, problem- while you have 'etc.' at the end of your list, that's pretty much it for the powerhouses! There's a few other skilled but not as strong masters, and then the list ends.

And the Exar Kun war did such a number on them that they started having problems like the Jedi Covenant's sith paranoia, and fear of many Jedi to act in non-sith related things.

By the time of the games, they only had two sith of real power, Revan and Malak (plus Traya, but she was not out and active til those two fell), and the Jedi relied on numbers when they tried to hit Revan. Another powerful Jedi (aside from Revan) didn't really arise until Meetra.

Trocity

It does seem to be an era with strong powerhouses and a thinner average cast. I guess that's just what I was getting at, Thon and Nomi have been compared to Yoda ( or vice versa ), and I feel like the strongest Jedi from that era were definitively some of the strongest ever.

Nephthys

My issue is that the Swtor era has a similar caliber of big name Jedi and Sith but far larger numbers and superior quality of the average rank and file, compared to the previous era's.

The Sith are evolved versions of the Golden Age guys, with much greater martial focus and better training. And the Jedi are evolved Kotor Jedi who possess the same knowledge as before but have rediscovered lost secrets that have improved their training and they've geared much more towards war by using armor and other gear.

Q99

Originally posted by Trocity
It does seem to be an era with strong powerhouses and a thinner average cast. I guess that's just what I was getting at, Thon and Nomi have been compared to Yoda ( or vice versa ), and I feel like the strongest Jedi from that era were definitively some of the strongest ever.

Yea, ToTJ-KotoR is solid on those grounds. It's equivalent to, like, the Hundred Year Darkness with the Sith, IMO. The HYD has a small cast of really badass sith, then a falloff.

I do feel that ToTJ era probably put too little emphasis on the martial end. Arca Jeth actively distained the lightsaber at times, and he was one of the big names. Vodo was the only Jedi teacher who really emphasized it. Which probably played a fair role in why Exar and Ulic, sword prodigies both, could dominate so much...

50-year later KotoR, i.e. Revan and Meetra time, was IMO one of the weaker era. You had the powerful sith, and then almost nada. The Sith, which were made up of a full 1/3rd of the Jedi Order and including the biggest two badasses of the time had Revan and Malak... then Bandon, and we don't have anyone else as badass as Bandon save maybe for pre-immortality Sion. Then with the Triumvirate you had Nihilus! Traya!... Sion!... and then everyone else was just fodder, the Jedi and Sith pretty much had a double-KO there.

To mention another era for contrast, Legacy has a short list of powerhouses, but a deep list of reasonably strong masters below them (due in large part to fielding three well-trained orders rather than two). I feel it above the later-KotoR, and has pros and cons when compared to the ToTJ-KotoR era.

ares834

Originally posted by Q99
The PT Jedi were more numerous, the top end of their lineup was downright scary- Yoda, Anakin, Windu, Kenobi- plus they had a rather impressive rack of not-quite-that-badass-but-still-pretty-badass-masters, both in and out of the council.

Well according to the KotOR campaign guide, the KotOR Jedi (presumably prior to the Great Sith Wars) was the prime of the Jedi surpassing even the PT. So yeah, according to canon the most powerful Order would have to be either the KotOR order or PT order depending on whether you think EU can twist Lucas statements like that.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by ares834
Well according to the KotOR campaign guide, the KotOR Jedi (presumably prior to the Great Sith Wars) was the prime of the Jedi surpassing even the PT.

Really? It says they were more powerful than all future generations?

You have the exact quote?

ares834

"Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

Nephthys

edit: beaten.

I guess Swtor is just EVEN more the prime than that, lol.

psmith81992

The SWTOR era has to be the most powerful. Constant war, relearning forgotten techniques... Not even close.

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
edit: beaten.

I guess Swtor is just EVEN more the prime than that, lol.

Only if you think personal opinion supersede canon fact. thumb up

Throw in the Sith though and TOR probably does surpass it.

Zenwolf

? Wha? Do you have a different Kotor CG? Cause mine says no such thing.

Nephthys

Originally posted by ares834
Only if you think personal opinion supersede canon fact. thumb up

Throw in the Sith though and TOR probably does surpass it.

It's not my opinion, multiple things in canon point out that the Sith are better than they've ever been and the Jedi have improved on their old ways and are more militarily adept than ever.

The Swtor period didn't even exist when that quote was made.

But since you seem to agree with me anyway whatevs.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
? Wha? Do you have a different Kotor CG? Cause mine says no such thing.

Page 103, Chapter VII.

Zenwolf

Odd that is where it is instead of where the Jedi stuff is.

But anyway, I doubt a sourcebook trumps Lucas' quote as he specifically stated in the Webisode Ep 1 interview that the Prime of the Jedi was the PT era.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by ares834
"Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

LOL Well that's written pretty clear cut.

You're right though. It depends how much people think Lucas's statements count with regards to the EU now. Given that the whole levels of Canon are gone, and it's just Canon or Legends, with Lucas not actually having authority over either anymore.

On the other hand both are following/respecting certain rules and guidelines set up by Lucas. Just depends to what extent.

It's why I don't bother too much with cross generational debates. Because it's impossible to properly power scale.

Beniboybling

o the contexts have to be either the Great Sith War or the Mandalorian Wars/Jedi Civil War.

Beniboybling

Q99

Originally posted by ares834
Well according to the KotOR campaign guide, the KotOR Jedi (presumably prior to the Great Sith Wars) was the prime of the Jedi surpassing even the PT. So yeah, according to canon the most powerful Order would have to be either the KotOR order or PT order depending on whether you think EU can twist Lucas statements like that.

Really, I find comments like 'prime' and 'golden age' pretty useless.

I mean, a golden age seems to, in practice, tend to mean 'a time when the Jedi are solidly ascendant,' and/or 'defeats great threats.' At the start of KotoR, just before Exar Kun, there'd been a looong time of peace, followed by them winning a big fight. Similarly, CW Jedi is after 1k year of piece, and a big fight.

And Prime, it's really hard to tell what, if anything, that means in practice.

One telling thing is there has never, ever been a side-by-side comparison of most of the era's relative capabilities. Just stuff on one era talking about "oh yea, this era's totally great."

We have enough data to compare strength in several ways, looking at the strongest force users. We don't need to rely on vague props of vagueness that also seem contradicted by people in those same eras talking about how great prior eras were.

ares834

There is nothing vague about. It's straight up saying that the era has the strongest Jedi Order.

Nephthys

What does that mean?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except it also says this messed

o the contexts have to be either the Great Sith War or the Mandalorian Wars/Jedi Civil War.

Anyway its pretty ambigious as to who they are referring to here, but considering what the Clone Wars did for Anakin and Kenobi I assume its alluding to any Jedi during war periods, which would have considerably increased their martial ability. But really the answer to the OP depends on your point of view.

And considering we have two conflicting statements about "Jedi in their prime", a conflict this statement acknowledges, its obvious that the term "prime" is not supposed to be taken in an absolute sense. So there is definitely room for new eras like the SWTOR era to be stronger.

Personally I'd vouch for SWTOR, they are in my opinion visibly the strongest, most unified and with the most battle experience. However the PT Order have a lot going for them, including the best of the best among their top ranks.

I think it's important to look at the context in which Lucas is speaking. He's directly comparing the PT to the OT by saying that while there's only a few Jedi alive after Order 66, in the Clone Wars the Jedi are still in their prime and engaging in large scale conflicts on battlefields. Given that Lucas is admittedly ignorant of most of the EU (the factors he uses for reasons why the PT is the prime apply better to earlier periods), I think the best interpretation is that Lucas was simply referring to the whole timeline for the pre-RotS Jedi Order as their prime in the vague and casual way he often does, in comparison to what they are in ANH+. That we are seeing the Jedi Order intact and healthy.

This sits nicely with the other quote, since it doesn't say the PT isn't the Jedi in their prime, just that Kotor is even moreso.

Although speaking personally I don't see how either the PT or Kotor could be the Jedi at their prime, nor should be, since a theme of both series' is that the Jedi have been significantly weakened within and without and are bad at being Jedi. In Kotor half the Jedi were corrupted, they make bad decisions, commit evil actions, generally lack compassion and they were soon reduced to a handful of Jedi by the purge. And we all know the point of the PT was that the Jedi essentially fail, betray their ideals and **** up. And in both periods the general public turn on them. And of course, both era's see the Jedi as rather small and weak comparatively, with them taking heavy losses.

S_W_LeGenD

SWTOR era most likely.

Selenial

FOTJ. The powerhouses are worth so much more than the numerous amounts of Rank and File sith of the SWTOR Era.

Sidious solo'd fleets with but a thought, BM'd the whole galaxy and literally did whatever the **** he wanted. Would much rather have him on my side than 100,000 average Sith Joes.

Nephthys

Pretty sure Sidious wasn't in FotJ.

Also Swtor had Vitiate, Vivicar, the First Son and the Dread Masters on top of their millions of Sith. I'd rather have a million extra Sith than idunno, Kyp Durron?

NewGuy01

First Son is a part of Vitiate, and lol @ Vivicar still being relevant.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
FOTJ. The powerhouses are worth so much more than the numerous amounts of Rank and File sith of the SWTOR Era.

Sidious solo'd fleets with but a thought, BM'd the whole galaxy and literally did whatever the **** he wanted. Would much rather have him on my side than 100,000 average Sith Joes.
I'd suggest that you recheck SWTOR Encyclopedia to clear your misconceptions.

Ancient Sith are at their best during TOR era.

Nephthys

Originally posted by NewGuy01
First Son is a part of Vitiate, and lol @ Vivicar still being relevant.

Vivicar nearly solo'd the Jedi Order. Twice. erm

And the First Son is functionally a separate entity.

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure Sidious wasn't in FotJ.

Also Swtor had Vitiate, Vivicar, the First Son and the Dread Masters on top of their millions of Sith. I'd rather have a million extra Sith than idunno, Kyp Durron?

Irrelevant, talking about that general Era. And my point stands.

Besides, I'd take Luke, Jaina and Caedus above that entire list combined.

Hell, probably just Luke even.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by Selenial
Hell, probably just Luke even.

confused

Nephthys

Originally posted by Selenial
Irrelevant, talking about that general Era. And my point stands.

Besides, I'd take Luke, Jaina and Caedus above that entire list combined.

Hell, probably just Luke even.

It really doesn't. Apart from Sidious, no-one else can be as effective as millions of Sith fighting across the galaxy at once and Sidious is doubtful as hell.

You'd put those 3 over Vitiate, Vivicar, First Son, Raptus, Bestia, Brontes, Calphayus, Styrak, Tyrans and millions of Sith? Huh, you're more of a fangirl than I thought.

Ok thats just dumb. Luke doesn't even do massive uses of the Force that could equal the contributions of the masters solo'ing whole fleets, let alone adding in the Children's unsurpassed spying and sabotage capabilities, Vivicar's plague and Vitiate doing whatever the shit he'd do. Eat the galaxy? Plus overwhelming Sith numbers winning countless battles across the galaxy? Please. erm

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
It really doesn't. Apart from Sidious, no-one else can be as effective as millions of Sith fighting across the galaxy at once and Sidious is doubtful as hell.

You'd put those 3 over Vitiate, Vivicar, First Son, Raptus, Bestia, Brontes, Calphayus, Styrak, Tyrans and millions of Sith? Huh, you're more of a fangirl than I thought.

Ok thats just dumb. Luke doesn't even do massive uses of the Force that could equal the contributions of the masters solo'ing whole fleets, let alone adding in the Children's unsurpassed spying and sabotage capabilities, Vivicar's plague and Vitiate doing whatever the shit he'd do. Eat the galaxy? Plus overwhelming Sith numbers winning countless battles across the galaxy? Please. erm

Well obviously I wasn't including the millions of Sith, or I would have said I'd take the Jedi order in there as well.

You never get all those force users in one place though, pit Luke against say Vitiate and the First Son, he'd kill them. All 6 dread masters, gone. While Luke doesn't go for the large scale killing that Sidious does, thats because he's a Jedi. He certainly has the capability, and he would, in my opinion, be more beneficial than "Vitiate, Vivicar, First Son, Raptus, Bestia, Brontes, Calphayus, Styrak, Tyrans".

And you can call me a fangirl all you want, but I've barely read half those novels when I've played all 8 class stories about 4 times, my favorite film was ROTS and Kotor is my favorite Era by a landslide. The only biased one here is you, people have been saying that for years and there's a reason, Neph.

Aurbere

Nephthys

Originally posted by Selenial
Well obviously I wasn't including the millions of Sith, or I would have said I'd take the Jedi order in there as well.

You never get all those force users in one place though, pit Luke against say Vitiate and the First Son, he'd kill them. All 6 dread masters, gone. While Luke doesn't go for the large scale killing that Sidious does, thats because he's a Jedi. He certainly has the capability, and he would, in my opinion, be more beneficial than "Vitiate, Vivicar, First Son, Raptus, Bestia, Brontes, Calphayus, Styrak, Tyrans".

And you can call me a fangirl all you want, but I've barely read half those novels when I've played all 8 class stories about 4 times, my favorite film was ROTS and the Kotor Era my favorite Era by a landslide. The only biased one here is you, people have been saying that for years and there's a reason, Neph.

The first thing you said was that you'd take the FotJ powerhouses over the rank and file of the Swtor era. To which I replied that Swtor has quantity and quality. So if you still think the FotJ powerhouses outweigh all that, you should clarify. But seriously, do you think that if all the Jedi and Sith from the swtor era took on all the Jedi and Sith from the "FotJ" era, the latter would win? Because they wouldn't.

That's not how it works though. You said that you'd take Luke over all of those guys, indicating that you either think he's more useful than all of them put together which is nuts because we've seen Skywalker fighting a war and he's nowhere near that effective, or you think he'd beat them all in a fight, which is also insane. Skywalker's big thing is to run up and kill the leader and he's very good at that. But he doesn't solo fleets or cause large scale damage. Apart from when he blew up the Death Star which any Jedi could have done.

The fangirl thing was a joke because I knew you hadn't meant to include the millions of Sith. You're so touchy. wink

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by Selenial
You never get all those force users in one place though, pit Luke against say Vitiate and the First Son, he'd kill them. All 6 dread masters, gone. While Luke doesn't go for the large scale killing that Sidious does, thats because he's a Jedi. He certainly has the capability, and he would, in my opinion, be more beneficial than "Vitiate, Vivicar, First Son, Raptus, Bestia, Brontes, Calphayus, Styrak, Tyrans"

How exactly is Luke by himself more valuable than the collective efforts of Vitiate, Vivicar, First Son, and the Dread Masters, when discussing depth of eras? Or anything, really.

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
The first thing you said was that you'd take the FotJ powerhouses over the rank and file of the Swtor era. To which I replied that Swtor has quantity and quality. So if you still think the FotJ powerhouses outweigh all that, you should clarify. But seriously, do you think that if all the Jedi and Sith from the swtor era took on all the Jedi and Sith from the "FotJ" era, the latter would win? Because they wouldn't.

That's not how it works though. You said that you'd take Luke over all of those guys, indicating that you either think he's more useful than all of them put together which is nuts because we've seen Skywalker fighting a war and he's nowhere near that effective, or you think he'd beat them all in a fight, which is also insane. Skywalker's big thing is to run up and kill the leader and he's very good at that. But he doesn't solo fleets or cause large scale damage. Apart from when he blew up the Death Star which any Jedi could have done.

The fangirl thing was a joke because I knew you hadn't meant to include the millions of Sith. You're so touchy. wink

SWTOR Has quantity, it does not have Quality on the level of the FOTJ/NJO powerhouses. I can't think of a single Jedi or Sith (other than Vitiate) that holds a candle to Luke, Jaina, Caedus or many of the other strong individuals in that era. They simply had more powerful force users when you reached the peaks.

Now when you look at the SWTOR Empire, you see "a million Sith". I don't. For the Empire, Sith means acolytes. Sith means trainees, people who won't even make it off Korriban alive yet alone into the open Empire. We've seen those levels of people massacred by mercenaries, if you're looking for actual, competent, powerful individuals you'll find the number sits a lot lower.

I mean come on, when you walk around as a Lord in that game people are practically falling on their feet for you, Sith are gods and even the ****ing Romans didn't have "millions" of gods wink

I'd put the actual number of strong, worthy and combative Sith at 100,000. Tops. Probably less.

And yes, I think the powerhouses of that Era are enough to make up for a difference like that. Especially if Sidious is in the equation, but even if he's not. They turn the tides of wars pretty solidly. Just put Luke and Leia against the fleet with Dread Masters in and they're gone.

Nephthys

Millions of Sith vie just for the Dark Council.

"Millions of the galaxies most powerful Sith" were considered for Scourge's replacement. So those Sith must be preeetty good to even be considered for the title of Emperor's Wrath.

Millions of people strive just to become a Sith at any one point.

So uh, yeah no. Millions of Sith.

DarthAnt66

I forgot about that. Excellent point. thumb up

Selenial

The Swtor encyclopedia is literally the most retarded book ever created.

Hyperbolic statements are hyperbolic, I emailed both Drew (Who collaborated on that book and was the lead writer for pre launch SWTOR) and their current lead writer to finally settle this.

In universe sources are hardly accurate. I can poke hundreds of flaws in them, you can call me biased and ignore said holes. I guess it's just simpler to get an estimate from someone who actually means something.

DarthAnt66

You know Selenial is desperate when she goes rage mode and emails people in which she previously said have no credibility and what they say means nothing to try to prove a fallen point.

Selenial

Well if you can care to explain why the singular most important battle in the Cold War had an imperial force of 50,000, when there's supposedly millions of Sith running around the shop, I'll be happy to concede.

Nephthys

No, whats retarded is that there isn't millions of Jedi and Sith in other era's. In a galaxy the scale of SW and battles that span entire planets it's stupid to think that an order of 10,000 could actually make any kind of difference.

I'm pretty sure they'll back the official encyclopedia and I don't see how that'll settle anything if they do contradict it.

Why would it be inaccurate on the numbers? That's pretty basic information on an organisation. Something that's repeated over and over again throughout the book.

Selenial

Well again, if you can explain to me why a ****ing "UNPRECEDENTED ARMY 50,000 STRONG" came to Bothawui, the most important Battle the empire wanted to win, instead of your supposed infinite amounts of Sith, I will concede.

Nephthys

SW battles don't tend to see large scale conflict like in the middle-ages and shit. There's no troop formations marching into battles under banners. That's not how we fight wars today, it's mostly urban conflicts. Bothawai was unprecedented because no-one had been thick enough to think that throwing wave after wave at an entrenched position was a good idea up til then.

There are millions of Sith spread out over hundreds of thousands to millions of planets. If there were just 5 Sith on each planet in the Empire you'd still need millions of them.

psmith81992

Nephthys

Also, you really can't think of anyone who rivals Jaina from Swtor? I can think of like 10. At least.

Tzeentch

Originally posted by Nephthys
SW battles don't tend to see large scale conflict like in the middle-ages and shit. There's no troop formations marching into battles under banners. Nigga what? Star Wars is World War 1 in space. It's all about huge formations of people running at each other across open fields.

https://youtu.be/sCZyLCJvVQ8?t=3m9s

It's nothing like modern combat.

Col. Valerian

Sith Pre-PT and PT are special cases, because the few Sith remaining follow the RoT code. Thus, their numbers are massively low compared to almost every other era.

The SWTOR definitely should be the most powerful era overall.

Vitiate, Wrath II, Scourge, Dread Masters, Darth Nox, Darth Jadus, Darth Malgus, Darth Thanaton, Darth Marr... Those are just a few.
In the Jedi Order we have guys like Kao Cen Darach, HoT, Revan, Satele Shan, Barsen'thor, Ven Zallow, Tol Braga.

The PT era has more powerful Jedi, but fewer, and only a handful of Sith.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Nigga what? Star Wars is World War 1 in space. It's all about huge formations of people running at each other across open fields.

https://youtu.be/sCZyLCJvVQ8?t=3m9s

It's nothing like modern combat.

The Clone War was notably larger than what had come before in terms of troops and scale and even then there is only visibly a few thousand on each side in that link. Geonosis is the biggest and most conventional battle we see I think.

Tzeentch

The Clone army numbered iirc less than 3 million troops for the duration of the entire war.

That's a galaxy-spanning army that is about the size of the modern US Military, Neph.

Nephthys

The droid army was in the quadrillions or something though.

Also **** that 3 million number. Though.... wouldn't that actually prove my point about smaller numbers?

Col. Valerian

There's really no question that TOR has both quality and quantity.

Tzeentch

Originally posted by Nephthys
The droid army was in the quadrillions or something though.

Also **** that 3 million number. Though.... wouldn't that actually prove my point about smaller numbers? Your answer to why one of the most important battles of the Old Republic only had 50,000 men in it was that Star Wars battles use modern tactics and there's no need for huge amounts of numbers.

The correct answer to her question is that the reason for why one of the most important battles in Cold War only had 50,000 men in it is because Star Wars writers are and always have been terrible at understanding scale.

The point of referencing the Clone Wars is to show that, no, Star Wars has never used modern war tactics. From the Original Trilogy to the Old Republic comics and beyond, it's pretty much always been two huge groups of people smashing into each other.

Col. Valerian

That's what we see on the surface, but I doubt it's actually the case. There have been characters praised for their military tactics and war strategies, like Revan or Thrawn.
It's not a coincidence that when Revan joined the Mandalorian Wars, the tide turned in favour of the Republic.

Col. Valerian

You were saying there are no real tactics and strategies used in SW wars, correct?

Tzeentch

No, I'm saying the tactics and strategies used in Star Wars are more akin to those used in the World Wars and US Civil War then in modern warfare.

Col. Valerian

Ah. Srynvm

Nephthys

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Your answer to why one of the most important battles of the Old Republic only had 50,000 men in it was that Star Wars battles use modern tactics and there's no need for huge amounts of numbers.

The correct answer to her question is that the reason for why one of the most important battles in Cold War only had 50,000 men in it is because Star Wars writers suck are and always have been terrible at understanding scale.

The point of referencing the Clone Wars is to show that, no, Star Wars has never used modern war tactics. From the Original Trilogy to the Old Republic comics and beyond, it's pretty much always been two huge groups of people smashing into each other.

Well also because that was a battle for a single fortress, whereas obviously in most cases an invading force needs to conquer the entire planet so they spread out their forces more.

Ok.

Uh, does it? The only big battle in the OT is on Hoth and it's mostly AT-AT's fighting planes and them fighting in the base itself. Space battles are obviously big but that doesn't count. I mean, Endor? Then in the PT we see clones fighting in the city on Utapau and in small scale conflicts on Mygeeto, Kashyyyk and Felucia. I'm not saying there aren't some big battles but not really 50,000 big in one place. Most of the fighting takes place in urban cities or in alien forests or caves or whatever.

The_Tempest

Lots and lots of anger in this thread.

|King Joker|

Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen...

The_Tempest

For the illiterate users who posted, Joker's OP didn't mention quantity, only quality.

carthage

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Lots and lots of anger in this thread.

And all you're doing is fanning it you troll. Go away

AncientPower

FOTJ by a decent gap.

Emperordmb

I'd have to go with rise of the empire era as far as quality goes.

The Ones and Abeloth were still alive, the Banite Sith were present, and there were some legendary jedi powerhouses.

ares834

Originally posted by The_Tempest
For the illiterate users who posted, Joker's OP didn't mention quantity, only quality.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
thumb up

Then it's the NJO without a doubt.

Emperordmb

In that case Ares, I'd be a little hesitant to call upon an era in which the Ones are dead.

|King Joker|

Why are the Ones relevant?

Emperordmb

Because they're the most SW characters like... ever.

|King Joker|

What does that have to do about comparing the quality of Jedi/Sith per era? They're excluded.

ares834

Originally posted by Emperordmb
In that case Ares, I'd be a little hesitant to call upon an era in which the Ones are dead.

They are neither Jedi nor Sith. So no. Not really relevant to this thread.

Emperordmb

I was hesitant to bring them up until people mentioned Abeloth and the Imperial Knights. When nothing was said about them being mentioned, I rolled with it.

Jmanghan

LOL DUDE WTF! HE STOMPS!!!

YOU ARE HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Emperordmb

dafuq are you talking about?

Jmanghan

No, but seriously, he stomps, go away.

Get the ****... out.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by |King Joker|
What does that have to do about comparing the quality of Jedi/Sith per era? They're excluded.

Meh, they effect the Force on a universal scale, you'd think the light and dark sides are stronger when they're around than when they're dead.

carthage

Originally posted by Jmanghan
go away.

thumb up

Jmanghan

I seriously don't know if that was meant to be in defense of me, or actually telling to do said action.

Jmanghan

Stop de-railing the thread, you ass.

Jmanghan

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Why are the Ones relevant? "Most Powerful Era"...

Not "Most Powerful Jedi/Sith Era".

Q99

Note, the Ones were around and in existence in *every* era up to the PT. They're kinda a wash.

The Merchant

If we counted the Ones wouldn't that mean most eras are tied for the strongest because of how long they lived?

Emperordmb

nah, it just kinda skews it out of the favor of the eras in which they were dead

ares834

Not sure why we would even include them for the other eras. Sure, they were alive then but they weren't really doing anything during that time other than staying in exile presumably outside of the material universe.

The Merchant

Well if that's true then yeah the Ones stomps easily. Inb4 someone mentions something about how Vitiate was the strongest therefore in his era so he>>>Ones.

Selenial

The ones existed outside time and space though, theoretically they were alive during the NJO era, but couldn't manifest themselves.

*shrug* Time travel confuses me.

Also I like that someone brought Revan into this in terms of tactics, when his greatest strategic victory was him and Surik hammering troops into the ground in order to secure a base quickly....

Q99

I say let's not count the Ones because they never did anything except mess around with each other.

When they were alive, they canceled each other out. When they were dead, they were dead.

Trocity

Still NJO since Abeloth overpowered the Son and Daughter by herself.

|King Joker|

Was Jmanghan on bath salts or something?

Jmanghan

Originally posted by The Merchant
Well if that's true then yeah the Ones stomps easily. Inb4 someone mentions something about how Vitiate was the strongest therefore in his era so he>>>Ones. Oh dear.

Lol, no, The Father was stronger then Peak Luke in the force, he would've only been surpassed by Peak Anakin.

Jmanghan

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Was Jmanghan on bath salts or something? I was really really hyper.

My ADHD kicked in, and... yeah.

Col. Valerian

Originally posted by Selenial
The ones existed outside time and space though, theoretically they were alive during the NJO era, but couldn't manifest themselves.

*shrug* Time travel confuses me.

Also I like that someone brought Revan into this in terms of tactics, when his greatest strategic victory was him and Surik hammering troops into the ground in order to secure a base quickly....

His greatest strategic victory was completely turn the tide of a war the Republic was losing in ugly fashion.

FreshestSlice

Not really. That is no singular even nor does it have a singular outcome.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Selenial
Also I like that someone brought Revan into this in terms of tactics, when his greatest strategic victory was him and Surik hammering troops into the ground in order to secure a base quickly....

laughing

red8

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Which era in Star Wars history had the all around more powerful Jedi and Sith? DISCUSS, PEOPLE!

It seems like quite a few people forgot to read the first post.

Selenial

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
laughing

Why are so many people uneducated on Revan's tactical prowes?
That doesn't just go for Selenial - you too Freshest and Valerian.

Here, read up: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/the-power-of-darth-revan-overview/103361/

My lord, that was the most uneducated thing I've read in a while.

Nowhere did anyone say Revan was a bad tactician. He was one of the best. Fact of the matter is he had to throw thousands of Republic Troops at Dxun knowingly to their death. It was a massacre of the Republic troops but it had to be done because Onderon would have fallen otherwise.

All that was, was proof that in Star Wars you get people massacred in droves, and you get huge armies fielded.

And yes, Dxun was the turning point of the war. The only battle that comes close is Malachor V, and the Exact same thing happened there.

Col. Valerian

Well, it just seemed like you thought he wasn't a good tactician.

And Ant, lol wtf? Did I say something that wasn't true? Didn't Revan turn the tide of that war single-handedly? Based on that comment, why would you say I'm uneducated in that aspect of Revan?

SunRazer

RotE era had Yoda and the whole Banite line from Bane to Sidious, plus the Ones and Abeloth while she was locked away. And the stupid Bedlam Spirits, if you count them. That should beat any other era.

McP

Originally posted by The Merchant
Prequel Trilogy

psmith81992

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/str8busta/NOT-SURE-IF-SRS.jpg

The_Tempest

The prime of the Jedi per Lucas and all 5 Sith Lords featured rank among the most powerful in history.

S_W_LeGenD

TOR era witnessed co-existence of:-

01. Emperor Vitiate
02. Soa
03. The World Razer
04. Terror from Beyond
05. Revan
06. Dread Masters
07. Hero of Tython
08. Darth Malgus
09. Barsen'thor III
10. Satele Shan
11. First Son (Created by Emperor Vitiate)
12. Dark Council members (numerous)
13. Emperor's Wrath

& more powerhouses.

The_Tempest

And millions of other no-name Jedi/Sith. Joker's OP is about quality, not quantity. In this respect, the rise of the Empire era {specifically the films}, are the best.

Nephthys

Quantity is a form of quality.

Also I agree with Legend. Swtor has the overall greatest number of highly powerful Force Users and thus is overall the most powerful.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
Quantity is a form of quality.

You make a kind of sense that doesn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I agree with Legend.

Truly an unexpected development.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Swtor has the overall greatest number of highly powerful Force Users.

SWTOR is saturated with no-name rank-and-file. Since the OP refers to quality {and you all missed it}, an era bloated with mediocrity {millions of Sith/Jedi} and a comparatively insignificant elite doesn't really have the a strong claim to the era with greatest quality.

Originally posted by Nephthys
thus is overall the most powerful.

That's not how quality works. That certainly might be the case if there weren't millions of other mediocre Force users running about, but there are and so it's not.

Selenial

I ****ing love Tempest.

Just throwing that out there.

Nephthys

Swtor's rank and file is the best of any era and they have over a dozen times as much of them as other eras. And there elite is overall superior to the PT's as well.

Also the OP said "Which era in Star Wars history had the all around more powerful Jedi and Sith?" This is an easily misconstrued statement that fits closer to how the thread originally perceived it.

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
Swtor's rank and file is the best of any era and they have over a dozen times as much of them as other eras.

That's some pretty shoddy mathematical ability.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
Swtor's rank and file is the best of any era

According to what source?

Originally posted by Nephthys
and they have over a dozen times as much of them as other eras.

Refrain: quantity is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And there elite is overall superior to the PT's as well.

Even if that were true, SWTOR is still encumbered by sheer numbers of mediocre Sith and Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also the OP said "Which era in Star Wars history had the all around more powerful Jedi and Sith?" This is an easily misconstrued statement that fits closer to how the thread originally perceived it.

For what it's worth {I'm sure very little to you and your position}, the guy who wrote the OP confirmed my interpretation of its words a few pages back.

Raptor22

If its quantity then obviously its swtor. It spanned hundreds of years and and far more force users than any other.

If its quality id say Lukes era in general. Lukes era to me covers everything from ANH to Crucible, so about 45 years. If i broke it down to pre njo, njo, fotj type eras there would only be 5-10 years per era and a very small well to draw from compared to the decades and centuries of other eras.

So in Lukes era there was

Luke
Palpatine
Vader
Caedus
Kryat
Abeloth
Gethzerion
Lumiya
Mara
Lomo plo
Lord nyax
Cboath
Unu thul
Lukes masters council (corran, saba, kyle, kyp,)
Jaina

Id take the top 5-10 from there over probably any other era.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Selenial
That's some pretty shoddy mathematical ability.

Well 2 million plus is easily over a dozen times bigger than 10,000. Right?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to what source?

Mainly the encyclopedia.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Refrain: quantity is irrelevant.

Nah.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even if that were true, SWTOR is still encumbered by sheer numbers of mediocre Sith and Jedi.

You mean empowered by a greater level of mediocrity compared to other era's. I mean.... in that swtors mediocre > other era's versions of mediocrity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
For what it's worth {I'm sure very little to you and your position}, the guy who wrote the OP confirmed my interpretation of its words a few pages back.

Yes I can read, thanks.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mainly the encyclopedia.

The encyclopedia puts SWTOR rank-and-file ahead of those from any other era before or after?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean empowered by a greater level of mediocrity compared to other era's. I mean.... in that swtors mediocre > other era's versions of mediocrity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes I can read, thanks.

Yet another unexpected development.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The encyclopedia puts SWTOR rank-and-file ahead of those from any other era before or after?

That we know of. The PT Jedi were, as you know, largely made up of poor fighters and their combat abilities had waned. The post-movies Jedi and Sith were getting by on the scraps from the PT. The Bane-era was pretty bad. For the Sith at least and thus likely for the Jedi as well. And the Swtor guys were suped-up versions of the previous peaks of their orders.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
That we know of. The post-movies Jedi and Sith were getting by on the scraps from the PT. The Bane-era was pretty bad. For the Sith at least and thus likely for the Jedi as well. And the Swtor guys were suped-up versions of the previous peaks of their orders.

This looks more like equivocation and less like proof. Do you have something concrete to provide in this respect?

Originally posted by Nephthys
The PT Jedi were, as you know, largely made up of poor fighters and their combat abilities had waned.

A most curious interpretation of "heyday, the golden age of the Jedi." Your English must differ wildly from mine.

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well 2 million plus is easily over a dozen times bigger than 10,000. Right?

When you get to being 200x bigger it kinda stops being "over a dozen".

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
That we know of. The PT Jedi were, as you know, largely made up of poor fighters and their combat abilities had waned. The post-movies Jedi and Sith were getting by on the scraps from the PT. The Bane-era was pretty bad. For the Sith at least and thus likely for the Jedi as well. And the Swtor guys were suped-up versions of the previous peaks of their orders.

So. Neph.

When you say the bane line was pretty bad, do you mean Plagueis and Sidious or Zannah and Bane? They're the most detailed ones, and obviously you think one of those sets is bad...

psmith81992

The Bane line is probably the most powerful line of sith through 1,000 years, only because we know very little about the Ancient Sith.

Emperordmb

He was probably referring to Kaan's order.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by psmith81992
The Bane line is probably the most powerful line of sith through 1,000 years, only because we know very little about the Ancient Sith.

What we know is that the ancient Sith suck balls and your wife called out Sheev's name in bed. uhuh

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/28/42/fd/2842fd0474f802642fd4ae24a04883cb.jpg

Nephthys

I'm talking about rank and file so yeah obviously.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This looks more like equivocation and less like proof. Do you have something concrete to provide in this respect?

A most curious interpretation of "heyday, the golden age of the Jedi." Your English must differ wildly from mine.

I don't require a direct statement of which is better to make an informed comparison based upon the evidence.

We know the PT Jedi had moved away from a lot of combat and lightsaber dueling related techniques. My statement is supported by the evidence.

psmith81992

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What we know is that the ancient Sith suck balls and your wife called out Sheev's name in bed. uhuh

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/28/42/fd/2842fd0474f802642fd4ae24a04883cb.jpg

The very few ancient sith we DO know about (Hord, Ragnos) were powerhouses superior to the Bane line. But we don't know about anyone in between. And my wife would never say the word "sheev".

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't require a direct statement of which is better to make an informed comparison based upon the evidence.

We know the PT Jedi had moved away from a lot of combat and lightsaber dueling related techniques. My statement is supported by the evidence.

You say "no" very inefficiently.

Originally posted by psmith81992
The very few ancient sith we DO know about (Hord, Ragnos) were powerhouses superior to the Bane line. But we don't know about anyone in between. And my wife would never say the word "sheev".

Superior to all the Bane line or just some?

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You say "no" very inefficiently.

As did you.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
As did you.

in your coma! Ha!

psmith81992

Some? Most maybe

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And millions of other no-name Jedi/Sith. Joker's OP is about quality, not quantity. In this respect, the rise of the Empire era {specifically the films}, are the best.
I can post a 'much larger' list of TOR era powerhouses.

The_Tempest

That's not the point.

Col. Valerian

But there are also a load of no-name Jedi in the PT and only a group of very powerful ones. It's like that in most eras. And yes, the PT Sith are indeed among the most powerful in the mythos, but they're a handful. There are a lot more very powerful Sith in the TOR era.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
But there are also a load of no-name Jedi in the PT and only a group of very powerful ones. It's like that in most eras.

Absolutely. The difference being is that Lucas declared the prequels to be the golden age of the Jedi and they numbered only ten thousand whereas SWTOR is saturated with millions of trained Force adepts on either side.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
And yes, the PT Sith are indeed among the most powerful in the mythos, but they're a handful.

And as I correctly deduced and Joker confirmed, this thread has nothing to do with raw numbers.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
There are a lot more very powerful Sith in the TOR era.

And a vast array of fodder. The elite in SWTOR are not so numerous as to adequately balance an otherwise titanic deficit. There are, what, a dozen or so "heavyweights" that we see in SWTOR? A dozen versus millions doesn't sound like a very convincing argument for quality.

And that's what this thread is about. Quality. SWTOR is encumbered by millions of no-name rank-and-file piss ants. They don't win this thread.