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Two top contenders vie for the position of most powerful Sith Lord in history before Sidious. Who takes this?

Dunno.

I will stop posting on Plagueis threads and start reading the novel. Like, right now.

Vitiate is definitely more powerful imo, but Plagueis is just a more skilled combatant; he has better speed feats and his proficiency with a lightsaber is very underrated, and the gap in force power isn't enough to earn Vitiate the win with sorcery here.

I have gained a new respect for Vitiate though after reading more and more material on him. I'd have him as my 4th "best" Sith after Caedus and Plagueis.

Plagueis wins. Even if Plagueis is not as powerful, he is competent enough to overcome Force attacks from a power bully like Vitiate and finish it with lightsaber.

Interesting, any other opinions?

Done before.

Plagueis wins.

I'm not entirely sure it'd ever become a meele battle, to be honest. I somehow see it becoming more of a Sidious/Talzin type confrontation, with Vitiate being Sidious and Plagueis, Talzin.

Then again, there's always that outlying factor that's Midichlorian Manipulation~

I'd have to say Vitiate wins this. Vitiate delved into the deepest secrets of the Dark Side and used the darkest rituals, where Pagueis just learned to manipulate the Force and make it do what he wanted it to, rather than learn to kill things and such. He definitely has better saber feats, though I'm not sure it would become a melee battle. Plus we've never seen Vitiates full potential, other than when he wiped out the Jedi strike team. I think that he probably has some crazy Dark Side power or ritual or something that he can use to cripple Plagueis. There are accounts stating he one-shotted DC members, and we don't know what he used or did for that, so I'm thinking Viti can handle this no problem.

Liberal assumption: Emperor Vitiate wins comfortably.
Conservative assumption: Emperor Vitiate wins in a good fight.

Pretty even split actually.

Plagueis lacks Vitiate's raw power IMO, but his actual affinity for battle and swordfighting will win him 50-60% of the battles.

Originally posted by Selenial
Pretty even split actually.

Plagueis lacks Vitiate's raw power IMO, but his actual affinity for battle and swordfighting will win him 50-60% of the battles.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
LiberalLaughable assumption: Emperor Vitiate wins comfortably.

^^^

Boast all you want but Plagueis is relatively much less tested in combat situations then the Emperor.

Emperor have defeated some of the greatest warriors of the Jedi Order with laughable ease, even felled entire Strike Teams of powerful Jedi and Sith with his powers. Emperor have superior feats and showings holistically.

Originally posted by Selenial
Pretty even split actually.

Plagueis lacks Vitiate's raw power IMO, but his actual affinity for battle and swordfighting will win him 50-60% of the battles.

Vitiate wins. It's definitely not a bad fight though. Plagueis is the s**t.

Plagueis wins solidly unless Vitiate has a nexus to sponge off of

You're strictly a feats person. Plagueis doesn't have better feats than Vitiate.

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate wins. It's definitely not a bad fight though. Plagueis is the s**t.

Vitiate has more raw power and arguably better skills in the Dark side.

Vitiate has stronger abilities in the esoteric areas of the Dark Side by quite a degree.

However Plagueis has displayed greater TK in combat, he has magnitudes greater speed, far more durability from fatal wounds as well as excellent Force defense. A lightsaber proficiency comparison would simply be a joke.

Plagueis wins as long as he keeps it short and close.

Don't know about combat, but Vitiate has the better TK feat.

Plagueis TK'd a group of Maladian assassins with such kinetic force that investigators later determined that they had been caught point-blank in a high grade explosion. This was Plagueis in a severely weakened state and was at the time directing his Force energy towards keeping himself alive.

It said he all but atomized them. He's also caused earthquakes, and blew a transparisteel canopy door on Tenebrous's ship, and shielded himself/ effortlessly lifted boulders that's were large enough to destroy his ship

I'm not saying Vitiate has the better combat TK feat, just better TK feat in general.

Bringing down the whole dark temple in DK whilst being in a weakened state.

So what? What proof do you have that he can replicate that showing without his amp? Plagueis has better showings by virtue of his own power, not while being juiced by Darkside energies like Vitiate

Dude, you have said Vitiate was 'immensely weakened' in his fight vs. HoT.

Now you're saying a full-power Vitiate can't replicate what a weakened state of himself accomplished previously?

*A section of the Dark Temple, not the entire thing.

Plagueis has the better TK feats for certain.

A massive section worth tons and tons of weight in stones.

A feat Plagueis has replicated and improved upon, when he killed his own master Tenebrous he built a massive pillar out of boulders large enough to crush a Freighter whilst protecting himself from similar sized boulders. Easily superior to tearing down a section of a thousand year old temple.

Not exactly. They were 'plummeting slabs' which were above Tenebrous. All Plagueis had to do was almost effortlessly use their own momentum in his favour and with the aid of gravity bring them down on his Master. It's not nearly as impressive as Vitiate's feat of bringing down a large part of a well-structured temple whilst being on a weakened state of himself. Full-power Vitiate would most likely have even better TK.

You ignored the important part of that feat. Plagueis lifted extremely boulders and piled them on-top of each other, reversing their momentum and providing him an exit through the vast hole above him. Unless I've forgotten said hole was very very high up.

It never says he 'lifted' them. In fact, it says he "aimed his raised hands at the plummeting slabs above his master". They were already airborne. It also doesn't say he 'piled them on top of each other', just that he brought them down with a lot of momentum.

You're referring to what happens after he kills Tenebrous. That's a different feat. This:

"From a spot mid-distance between the ship and rubble pile beneath the oculus, he immersed himself in the Force and, with gestures not unlike those he and Tenebrous had used in arresting the ceiling collapse, began to levitate slabs from the ship and add them to the rubble heap, stopping only when he had both exposed the hatch of the ship and was confident he could Force-leap through the oculus from atop the augmented pile."

It's not nearly as impressive as you point it out to be. And the size of the slabs isn't even mentioned. He doesn't reverse the momentum of anything and he simply Force-leaps through the hole.

They were large enough to trash his ship and he was piling them up whilst defending himself.

Plagueis probably has a deeper technical understanding of the Force while Vitiate has a stronger affinity for the Dark Side. I'd say they are comparable in power.

When it comes to rituals, Vitiate did the Nathema thing and took out a strike team of Sith Lords. Plagueis, with Sidious' help, performed a galactic scale ritual that could be felt by all force sensitives. Vitiate attempted to perform a vastly more impressive galactic scale ritual, but failed. I'd give Plagueis the edge here, but it could be argued either way.

Both have powerful lightning. Plagueis can light up caverns and valleys and has reduced non force sensitives to dust. Nyriss' lighting could reduce people to ash and Vitiate's lightning was considered far more powerful than hers. Vitiate has defeated strike teams of powerful Jedi with his lightning. Based on feats, I'd give Vitiate the edge, but I personally believe they have comparable lightning.

I don't know much about Vitiate's TK. It seems that he was able to do to Scourge the same thing that Yoda did to Ventress. Plagueis was able to all but atomize non force sensitives. A weakened Vitiate was able to collapse part of a temple. Plagueis was able to collapse part of a cave and pick some of the slabs of rock back up. I'd say they have comparable TK.

Both were able to create illusions of themselves.

Both altered their environments. Vitiate altered Dromund Kaas with his rituals. Naboo had its coldest winter in history when Plagueis went their. Just from experimenting with the Dark Side, Plagueis turned the lab on his home planet into dark side nexus that was powerful enough to shock even Sidious.

When it comes to speed, Plagueis moved so fast that even droids and cameras had trouble detecting him. Vitiate was able to avoid getting blitzed by strike teams of Jedi and the Hero of Tython. The Hero of Tython had managed to blitz several powerful Sith.

When it comes to lightsaber combat, Plagueis was able to outduel a Sith that was trained specifically to beat him. He, along with Sidious, fought an army of droids and an army of Kursid warriors. Vitiate fought, but lost, against the Hero of Tython. I'd give Plagueis the edge here.

Vitiate obviously completely dominates in the TP department, but I highly doubt he could mind dominate Plagueis.

Overall, I think this could go either way, but Plagueis' dueling skills might give him the edge.

Originally posted by AncientPower
They were large enough to trash his ship and he was piling them up whilst defending himself.

Uh, no. There was nothing to defend against. The explosion was over, and the slabs were either on the ground or atop the crushed ship. And a shitload of medium-sized stones crashing and flying at extremely high speeds can easily crush a ship.

Weakened-state Vitiate's feat is considerably more impressive.

His death caused an earthquake, it wasn't a TK feat. If you want to compare death explosions, Plagueis caused Coruscant to quake upon his own.

Vitiate explicitly calls out HoT and tells him that he will not let him escape the temple. Immediately after that, the temple starts to fall apart. Nothing ever indicates his death caused it. The evidence points towards him being the one who chose to bring it down to kill HoT.

Look, my point is that you can't underestimate Vitiate's TK. It's also very, very impressive. I'm not saying Plagueis' isn't, in fact, I agree it's incredibly impressive, as well.

Him saying that the HoT will die with him is a threat, substantiated only by the fact his body dying and his spirit leaving has caused a localised eruption in the Force that damages the temple heavily.

By comparison causing Coruscant to suffer an earthquake because of Plagueis' death is far more impressive.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Him saying that the HoT will die with him is a threat, substantiated only by the fact his body dying and his spirit leaving has caused a localised eruption in the Force that damages the temple heavily.

By comparison causing Coruscant to suffer an earthquake because of Plagueis' death is far more impressive.

Plagueis didn't threaten anybody. Vitiate threatened him and literally immediately after that, the temple starts to fall apart. I concede that it's not perfectly clear whether or not he crushed the temple with his TK or his death, but imo the evidence leans towards him being the one attempting to bringing it down on HoT.

He is threatening him as a result of it, he is dying or dead how is he going to perform such a tk feat?

He didn't die. His spirit is capable of causing such massive destruction or earthquakes. Only an extremely powerful spirit can do such things. Both Plagueis and Vitiate were amongst the top dogs in the mythos, and as such have the abilities required as spirit(s).

You don't get to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever having only good TK and less-than-impressive combat prowess. As I've previously said, I'm not arguing against Plagueis's chances to win, or in favour of Vitiate. Both have impressive TK and neither's TK should be underestimated. That's all.

I'm not saying Vitiate's is weak, only that Plagueis' TK is better. Vitiate did die actually, hence returning from his nebulous form to a spiritual one.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm not saying Vitiate's is weak, only that Plagueis' TK is better.
This makes no sense.

Telekinetic prowess is dependent on raw power of the Force-user. The stronger a Force-user, the more kinetic energy he is able to produce in his offensive actions accordingly.

Vitiate can logically match all telekinetic actions of Plagueis and then some.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vitiate did die actually, hence returning from his nebulous form to a spiritual one.
Vitiate acquired the ability to cheat death so he cannot die like a mortal.

Their is no return to the so-called spiritual realm for a mortal after death. Mortals become "one with the Force" after death.

What are the spirits actually? They are essence of those individuals who have learned to preserve their essence after death (an aspect of immortality). Such an essence is technically a ghost or entity which exists in the material realm and is able to interact with the surroundings just like a mortal Force-user.

Essentially this:

"What is a Force ghost?"

"It's a survival, a sending from someone who has died but still exists in a certain way." (Ordith Huarr and Nelani Dinn)

More:

"I was able to touch you because we are connected by the Force. I drew on your link with the Force to become more solid, just as I draw on it now to become visible to you." (The ghost of Aidan Bok to Tash Arranda)

A ghost, actually draws on the Force to interact with the surroundings just like a mortal Force-user. A powerful ghost is able to outright 'possess' a mortal, should the need arise.

Do we finally have evidence that the temple was brought down?

http://data3.whicdn.com/images/67857310/large.jpg

Aparently bringing down whole temples is easier than Force handling your opponent, so pointless bringing out this feat.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Him saying that the HoT will die with him is a threat, substantiated only by the fact his body dying and his spirit leaving has caused a localised eruption in the Force that damages the temple heavily.

By comparison causing Coruscant to suffer an earthquake because of Plagueis' death is far more impressive.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9lnzkvy0c1qgflooo2_r2_250.png

Vitiate isn't actually dead or dying in the Light Side version of that scene though. The Hero specifically mentions that she'll take him captive and Scourge says he's still alive. Even in the darkside ending the guy is still ****ing alive with a pillar through his chest.

Plagueis's TK is also quite impressive, just not on Vitiate's level Imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Do we finally have evidence that the temple was brought down?
I don't think so.

Anyone can provide proof?

Bump

Assume it is Novel Vitiate

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm not saying Vitiate's is weak, only that Plagueis' TK is better. Vitiate did die actually, hence returning from his nebulous form to a spiritual one.

Funny how things change. Also funny how people suggest I'm incredibly biased towards TOR when I used to argue this.

You are incredibly biased towards TOR though :/

Plagueis stomps any pre-KotFE iteration of this guy.

Originally posted by Azronger
Plagueis stomps any iteration of this guy.

Anyway, novel Vitiate wins decently.

I would say it's pretty even tbh. What are the arguments for both sides?

SWTOR Vitiate beats him in a decent fight.

Novel Vitiate dies.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
SWTOR Vitiate beats him in a decent fight.

Novel Vitiate dies.

Why?

Originally posted by Azronger
Plagueis stomps any pre-KotFE iteration of this guy.
Darth Plagueis could not stomp even shitty Lord Venamis in a fight. He could not threaten Jedi Order in a significant way. His supposed corporeal immortality is hot air. Not sure why you continue to rate this guy so high.

Go through my Valkorion Respect Thread once again; I have updated it (WIP). Valkorion is beyond the likes of Darth Plagueis.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Novel Vitiate dies.
Reason?

Tenebrae, at this stage, killed several members of the Dark Council, and humbled Revan separately. He had a good shot against Revan's Strike Team as well (explicitly mentioned in the novel).

Darth Plagueis's capability to defeat Revan is suspect, let alone Tenebrae.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Plagueis could not stomp even shitty Lord Venamis in a fight. He could not threaten Jedi Order in a significant way. His supposed corporeal immortality is hot air. Not sure why you continue to rate this guy so high.

Go through my Valkorion Respect Thread once again; I have updated it (WIP). Valkorion is beyond the likes of Darth Plagueis.

Your RT sucked lol. Even I could do better and I hate Valk.

Originally posted by Azronger
Your RT sucked lol. Even I could do better and I hate Valk.

Harsh Az.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Reason?

Tenebrae, at this stage, killed several members of the Dark Council, and humbled Revan separately. He had a good shot against Revan's Strike Team as well (explicitly mentioned in the novel).

Darth Plagueis's capability to defeat Revan is suspect, let alone Tenebrae.

None of those feats are above Plagueis.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why?

Better showings of force power imo and more versatility.

Most likely Vitiate.

Plagueis can win if he can close the gap, but Valk's lightning, TK and esoteric powers he has to bear can prove useful in preventing that.

this all comes down to whether unbalancing the force translates to practical power

if it's an absolute yes, plagueis beats valkorion
if it's an absolute no, he loses to novel vitiate

^nah

Originally posted by Azronger
Your RT sucked lol. Even I could do better and I hate Valk.
Height of immaturity. I wonder when will you grow up.

Originally posted by Deronn Solo
Plagueis can win if he can close the gap, but Valk's lightning, TK and esoteric powers he has to bear can prove useful in preventing that.
Yeah, they could. That's assuming that Vitiate has the capacity to wield them competently, though.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
None of those feats are above Plagueis.
Any basis?

Darth Plagueis was unable to stomp the likes of Darth Venamis in a fight, and a group of elite assassins nearly felled him. These lackluster showings do not hold a candle to Tenebrae's.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, they could. That's assuming that Vitiate has the capacity to wield them competently, though.
So Tenebrae does not wield his powers competently? This is exceedlingly bad assumption.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD



Yeah if you ommit context to these showings Plagueis isn't impressive but let's explain to you what actually happened in these instances.

Venamis knew Plagueis inside and out which is why he contended with him for so long.

As for the assasins Plagueis hesitated to use his powers because he didn't want to alert the Jedi to his presence. They took advantage of hesitation and managed to badly injuire him. Lowballing Plagueis isn't helping your case here.

OT-Both are extremely powerful. Too close to call.

^

I thought Plagueis did pretty good against the Maladians considering half of his face and neck was gone before the fight even started, and he had no lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So Tenebrae does not wield his powers competently? This is exceedlingly bad assumption.
How do you figure?

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ


Tenebrae was absurdly below his prime when he felled a rebellious Dark Council. Need I say more?


Can you provide the exact quote?

This assertion: "Soon I will be stronger than you can possibly imagine." - is in the context of Darth Plagueis achieving corporeal immortality which he was unable to.


I am sorry but what powers Darth Venamis have demonstrated that can be considered to position him in the league of Darth Maul, let alone Count Dooku?

Darth Venamis being a skilled warrior, and having deep knowledge of Darth Plagueis's dueling skills, is not sufficient to count him among the HIGH-END of Sith Lords.

Darth Tenebrous barely even trained Darth Plagueis? Darth Plagueis was a master of lightsaber combat by the time he fought Darth Venamis:

"Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah if you ommit context to these showings Plagueis isn't impressive but let's explain to you what actually happened in these instances.

Venamis knew Plagueis inside and out which is why he contended with him for so long.
See above.

Originally posted by HP Legend
As for the assasins Plagueis hesitated to use his powers because he didn't want to alert the Jedi to his presence. They took advantage of hesitation and managed to badly injuire him. Lowballing Plagueis isn't helping your case here.

OT-Both are extremely powerful. Too close to call.
No Jedi were stationed nearby.

Darth Plagueis was with The Order of the Canted Circle when the Maladians struck. And he did not hesitate to use his powers to kill Maladians in brutal ways.

Tenebrae would have made the Maladians bend the knee without a gesture and/or turned them all against each other.

The fact pre-Nathema Vitiate was already killing an 8-strong Sith Council, who were each individually the most powerful Sith Lords who ruled hundreds of planets. Literally, besides Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh they were the next contenders for Dark Lord. That feat is already immensely impressive for anyone.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The fact pre-Nathema Vitiate was already killing an 8-strong Sith Council
Source?

At that point there were 8 of them left alive, though I guess you can argue they appointed replacements but that'd be speculation.

Originally posted by AncientPower
At that point there were 8 of them left alive, though I guess you can argue they appointed replacements but that'd be speculation.

Who's to suggest he didn't eat them as part of the ritual on Nathema?

As for you LeG I'll get back to your post tomorrow.

It specifically says he executes them. It's clearly not a part of the ritual.

Maybe eating them was the execution. :3

That'd be completely redundant writing.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That'd be completely redundant writing. I was kidding. -3-

My perspective is simple:
1. Of Plaguies is far away, Valkorian wins.

2. If Plaguies is close, Plagueis wins.

I am wondering how Balkorian will get around his speed fest though, you know, the one with him flying through the woods like lightning.

Maybe teleportation?

Originally posted by AncientPower
It specifically says he executes them. It's clearly not a part of the ritual.

Yeah and who says they weren't executed as part of the ritual?

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
I was kidding. -3-

My perspective is simple:
1. Of Plaguies is far away, Valkorian wins.

2. If Plaguies is close, Plagueis wins.

I am wondering how Balkorian will get around his speed fest though, you know, the one with him flying through the woods like lightning.

Maybe teleportation?

Literally freezing and then one-shotting him.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah and who says they weren't executed as part of the ritual?

Even if they were, that just means he multitasked. Which makes it even more impressive. The way I see it, he did it beforehand though as no source on the ritual even mentions them.

He did it to Vaylin whilst he was a mere spirit in a host that couldn't properly channel his power without almost dying.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He did it to Vaylin whilst he was a mere spirit in a host that couldn't properly channel his power without almost dying. Yeah, But Plagueis is much stronger than Vaylin.

Vitiate.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Yeah, But Plagueis is much stronger than Vaylin.

Lol no.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol no. Lol yes. :3

Plagueis is sub-Revan, nevermind stronger than Vaylin.

Is Revan Vitiate certainly stronger than Vaylin, though?

I mean, if we go by Ant's fairly solid argument, he should be.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Yeah, But Plagueis is much stronger than Vaylin.
Hell no.

Vaylin was so powerful that Valkorion went to great lengths to suppress her mind in order to bar her from challenging him anytime soon. Vaylin's direct and indirect demonstrations of power on Nathema are an eye-opener but few pay attention. She is known to exercise restraint in her showings nevertheless.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She is known to exercise restraint

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD




Yeah defeating a featless Dark Council when he had prep is super impressive...

Not.

Seriously I think Novel Vitiate vs Plagueis is an incredibly good fight (not sure who wins that's how close it is) but you've done an incredibly poor job at showing it.



The fact that he duelled Plagueis is enough. That's like me saying Kun isn't sub Malak because he hasn't demonstrated powers on par with him but the statement speaks for itself.

In reality fighting Plagueis should be considered a good feat for Venamis not an anti feat for Plagueis.



The deep knowledge of Plagueis's duelling abilities is meant to explain why he fought him for so long not establish him as a high tier lmao.

As for the rest see above.



Plagueis being a master of Lightsaber combat doesn't mean he was well trained just that he's talented.