Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Battle takes place on neutral ground

Zallow

Bulq

Not sure

Sora Bulq, but after a long drawn out fight

Probably.

Bulq in a good one.

What have Bulq done to suggest that he can defeat an opponent such as Zallow?

Competing with Mace, being one of the best lightsaber instructors in history, beating Tholme, etc.

He's a master of all forms and utilizes Vaapad, which Zallow isn't overly familiar with.

Originally posted by SunRazer
being one of the best lightsaber instructors in history
Do you have a quote for that?

Credit to Intrepid37 (I think it's from the SW databank):

Uggghhhhh, gross. Intrepid was an incredibly annoying and asinine troll.

Thanks for the quote though.

He was a better debater than you ever were, and just you don't like him doesn't make him a troll

He's pretty knowledgeable, though.

But yeah - Sora's hype and feats exceed Ven's. He wins.

He has spammed KMC with porn before, and socks on here every so often just to spite people, and that's what makes him a troll. Even before he got banned for trolling, much of what he did was deliberately provocative.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Competing with Mace, being one of the best lightsaber instructors in history, beating Tholme, etc.

He's a master of all forms and utilizes Vaapad, which Zallow isn't overly familiar with.
Tholme is not a great warrior.

And I don't take sparring matches as valid demonstrations of skill. A real combat is much more then a sparring contest.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's pretty knowledgeable, though.

But yeah - Sora's hype and feats exceed Ven's. He wins.
Being one of the best lightsaber instructors is not enough proof of being a great warrior. Drallig have similar hype and we know what became of him in an actual combat against a 'proven' warrior (i.e. Anakin/Vader).

In case of Bulq, Dooku easily bested him and Vos killed him. Not a grand record.

Unlike Bulq, Zallow is a 'proven' warrior. Zallow blitzed two skilled warriors simultaneously, effortlessly countered firepower of Eleena Darru while handling other opponents and nullified her in return, defeated Lord Adraas, and injured Darth Malgus. This is more the enough to prove his superiority over Bulq.

He's been banned on Comic Vine twice as well. lmao

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And I don't take sparring matches as valid demonstrations of skill. A real combat is much more then a sparring contest.
No no no. Bulq actually fought with Mace. Tiin is the one who has the overwanked sparring match with Mace.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Tholme is not a great warrior.

And I don't take sparring matches as valid demonstrations of skill. A real combat is much more then a sparring contest.

---

Unlike Bulq, Zallow is a 'proven' warrior. Zallow blitzed two skilled warriors simultaneously, effortlessly countered firepower of Eleena Darru while handling other opponents and nullified her in the process, defeated Lord Adraas, and injured Darth Malgus. This is more the enough to prove his superiority over Bulq.

This just proves you haven't read the source. Sora fought evenly with Mace in a realistic encounter, not a spar.

And I know all of Zallow's feats, I've both read and watched Deceived.

Originally posted by SunRazer
This just proves you haven't read the source. Sora fought evenly with Mace in a realistic encounter, not a spar.

And I know all of Zallow's feats, I've both read and watched Deceived.
Then Mace is another character with inconsistent showings besides Anakin. I am not impressed.

Dooku easily overwhelmed Bulq with his powers and Vos eventually killed Bulq. I am not impressed.

I still maintain that Zallow, comparatively, have superior showings in combat.

1. You can't just say they're inconsistent because you don't like them. Sora's just that impressive.

2. Power doesn't relate to skill, and Dooku would punish Zallow as well.

Vos won via circumstances, not skill. He's obviously inferior otherwise.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. You can't just say they're inconsistent because you don't like them. Sora's just that impressive.
This is not a matter of my liking, this is a matter of interpretation of the details you provide. You are asserting that Bulq could handle Mace Windu in a confrontation but you have not addressed my argument about inconsistency:

If Bulq could handle Mace Windu in a confrontation, why couldn't he handle Dooku and Vos?

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Power doesn't relate to skill, and Dooku would punish Zallow as well.
Power complements skill.

Even if we assume that Dooku can defeat Zallow, it can be asserted with confidence that this would be a tough fight for both.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vos won via circumstances, not skill. He's obviously inferior otherwise.
What circumstances?

1. He's not on par, but he's comparable.

Because Dooku's better? And as I said, the Vos fight was circumstance-riddled, so it's not applicable.

2. I don't mean for this to come out the wrong way, but I notice your favoritism towards the TOR era. So this is a matter of liking from what I perceive.

3. Dooku would hand Zallow his ass on a stick. And that stick would be Tyranus's lightsaber blade.

4. Bulq beat him, and did one of those stupid fancy slow-motion execution movements. Vos was freed from his mental issues by Aayla as that happened, and he basically turned and cheap-shotted Bulq. The whole fight was riddled with circumstances.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He's not on par, but he's comparable.

Because Dooku's better? And as I said, the Vos fight was circumstance-riddled, so it's not applicable.

2. I don't mean for this to come out the wrong way, but I notice your favoritism towards the TOR era. So this is a matter of liking from what I perceive.

3. Dooku would hand Zallow his ass on a stick. And that stick would be Tyranus's lightsaber blade.

4. Bulq beat him, and did one of those stupid fancy slow-motion execution movements. Vos was freed from his mental issues by Aayla as that happened, and he basically turned and cheap-shotted Bulq. The whole fight was riddled with circumstances.
We are now going in circles and you are presenting excuses.

You better provide evidence of your claims to validate them.

My preferences do not cloud my judgement. Do you think that I believe that nobody from PT era can outduel Zallow? I believe Yoda can. A few more as well perhaps. But this doesn't means that every talented lightsaber instructor of the Order and his mom can.

You are hyping Bulq's combat prowess, using his performance against Mace Windu as an example but you provided no evidence that implies that this was a lengthy battle which pushed both to their limits. Similarly, you are not properly covering failures of Bulq against Dooku and Vos. What I am getting from you are the lame assumptions that Dooku will stomp Zallow and Vos won through circumstances. If you intend to have a debate with me then you make a habit of providing evidence to support your assertions.

ILS also suggested that Bulq was able to hold his own with Windu due to their close relationship in developing Vaapad. Obviously, this doesn't contradict the accolade of calling him one of the "best lightsaber instructors" in the order's history- but it does add some context in his ability to hold his own against Windu

I was the one who suggested that first, and it's likely the case.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We are now going in circles and you are presenting excuses.

You better provide evidence of your claims to validate them.

My preferences do not cloud my judgement. Do you think that I believe that nobody from PT era can outduel Zallow? I believe Yoda can. A few more as well perhaps. But this doesn't means that every talented lightsaber instructor of the Order and his mom can.

You are hyping Bulq's combat prowess, using his performance against Mace Windu as an example but you provided no evidence that implies that this was a lengthy battle which pushed both to their limits. Similarly, you are not properly covering failures of Bulq against Dooku and Vos. What I am getting from you are the lame assumptions that Dooku will stomp Zallow and Vos won through circumstances. If you intend to have a debate with me then you make a habit of providing evidence to support your assertions.

What evidence do you want me to present? You haven't really presented anything either.

The fact that you brought up Yoda, the most skilful swordsman of his time and up to his time, is laughable. Beings well below Yoda would also beat Zallow.

I told you Sora lost to Dooku because Dooku was just better. Dooku also outclasses Ven Zallow, so it's not a low showing. Otherwise I can claim Ven losing to Malgus makes him lose to Sora. And Dooku > Malgus in swordsmanship anyway, and even then he only deprived Sora of one of his blades.

Vos did win via circumstances, and I elaborated on that. The scans for Bulq's duels against both Mace and Quinlan are online and pretty easy to find. I can link you to them if you want.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I was the one who suggested that first, and it's likely the case.
So how does it bodes well for Bulq against Zallow?

1. Zallow is not a practitioner of the dark aspects of the Force. Vaapad will not work against him.

2. Bulq lacks control over Vaapad, so he cannot utilize it as effectively as Mace.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What evidence do you want me to present? You haven't really presented anything either.
I have provided information that determines that Zallow is a 'proven' warrior. You, on the other hand, have not provided much convincing information in favor of Bulq.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that you brought up Yoda, the most skilful swordsman of his time and up to his time, is laughable. Beings well below Yoda would also beat Zallow.
Yoda isn't officially recognized as the most skilled lightsaber duelist in galactic history.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I told you Sora lost to Dooku because Dooku was just better.
Bulq lost to Dooku in a very unconvincing manner, and this is the problem.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku also outclasses Ven Zallow, so it's not a low showing.
And this is "your personal assumption," not some official disclosure.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Otherwise I can claim Ven losing to Malgus makes him lose to Sora.
Malgus have much superior combat record then Bulq. These two aren't even comparable.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And Dooku > Malgus in swordsmanship anyway, and even then he only deprived Sora of one of his blades.
Based on? Another unsubstantiated claim from you.

Malgus have sufficient raw power and dueling ability to force Dooku on the defensive and eventually slaughter him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vos did win via circumstances, and I elaborated on that. The scans for Bulq's duels against both Mace and Quinlan are online and pretty easy to find. I can link you to them if you want.
Yes, please provide me the scans.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So how does it bodes well for Bulq against Zallow?

1. Zallow is not a practitioner of the dark aspects of the Force. Vaapad will not work against him.

Vaapad channels inner darkness, bro.



Didn't stop him from dueling evenly with Mace.




Yes, I have. Fighting evenly with Mace is better than anything you presented for Zallow.



It's a possibility, as per Fightsaber, but I said he's the most skilful bladesman of his time.



He got deprived of one blade, not defeated completely. Ventress lost a blade against Plo, but she then obtained the upper hand.

I'm not saying Dooku couldn't outduel him, but if he did, it'd be a closer fight. He ultimately won with Lightning, not blade prowess.



lol all of this is "personal assumption", as with your claims that Ven beats Bulq. Everybody's suggestions of who wins and who doesn't is a personal assumption.

That being said, this: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/count-dooku-darth-tyranus-respect-thread/95276/

Blows Zallow's feats out of the water.




Yes, they certainly are.



Based on superior dueling feats, between contending with Yoda, outskilling Mace Windu, outskilling AotC Anakin, stomping AotC Obi-Wan, contending evenly with and holding the edge over Season 6 Anakin/Obi-Wan, outskilling Ventress, outskilling Quinlan Vos, repeatedly outskilling Grievous, etc.




I wasn't debating raw power, I was debating swordsmanship skills. Quit with your red herrings.



http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721991-2314922-mace_sora_1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721992-2314923-mace_sora_2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721993-2314924-mace_sora_3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721994-2314925-mace_sora_4.jpg

Originally posted by SunRazer
Didn't stop him from dueling evenly with Mace.
Mace Windu is another Asajj Ventress in the making; his lightsaber duels produce no outcomes. Even Mother Talzin managed to duel Mace Windu with a magic sword and press him, and she is not an expert swordsman. Heck, Darth Maul was able to duel both Mace Windu and Aayla Secura simultaneously in a confrontation with them.

In the nutshell, almost any individual of note and his mom is able to duel Mace Windu.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, I have. Fighting evenly with Mace is better than anything you presented for Zallow.
No, it isn't. See above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's a possibility, as per Fightsaber, but I said he's the most skilful bladesman of his time.
Fightsaber reveals that Yoda is a master of Form IV, nothing much else.

Also, in which source it is stated that Yoda is the greatest lightsaber duelist of his era?

Originally posted by SunRazer
He got deprived of one blade, not defeated completely. Ventress lost a blade against Plo, but she then obtained the upper hand.

I'm not saying Dooku couldn't outduel him, but if he did, it'd be a closer fight. He ultimately won with Lightning, not blade prowess.
Bulq's losses do not benefit arguments in his favor against a proven warrior such as Zallow, do you understand?

Zallow isn't a strict lightsaber combatant either, he uses both his dueling abilies and command of the Force to subdue his opponents.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol all of this is "personal assumption", as with your claims that Ven beats Bulq. Everybody's suggestions of who wins and who doesn't is a personal assumption.

That being said, this: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/count-dooku-darth-tyranus-respect-thread/95276/

Blows Zallow's feats out of the water.
Count Dooku is explored in much greater detail then most characters of the mythos. Due to this factor, only a limited-scale comparison between Dooku and Zallow is possible.

In the matters where a direct comparison between Count Dooku and Zallow is possible, I don't see how the former have superior showings then the latter.

- Show me an example of Count Dooku outright blitzing highly competent Sith Warriors.

- Show me an example of Count Dooku comfortably defeating a Lord of the Sith in a confrontation.

- Show me an example of Count Dooku injuring an opponent of Darth Malgus' caliber in a proper duel, no tricks involved.

- Show me an example of Count Dooku performing a blur of dueling maneuvers that involve both speed and precision simultaneously.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, they certainly are.
No, they are not.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Based on superior dueling feats, between contending with Yoda, outskilling Mace Windu, outskilling AotC Anakin, stomping AotC Obi-Wan, contending evenly with and holding the edge over Season 6 Anakin/Obi-Wan, outskilling Ventress, outskilling Quinlan Vos, repeatedly outskilling Grievous, etc.
Contending with Yoda is impressive but not impossible for a genuine master of lightsaber combat. Yoda is 'among' the masters of lightsaber combat, when galactic history is considered. Also, Yoda would have outdueled Count Dooku eventually, if the latter had persisted. Not surprisingly, Count Dooku chose to flee when he felt that he could not gain advantage.

Count Dooku outskilled Mace Windu in a sparring contest. In an actual confrontation, the former chose to flee.

Outskilling Anakin (AotC) isn't a big deal; same goes for Obi-Wan (AotC). Both Anakin and Obi-Wan significantly honed their talents in the lightsaber dueling arts in the later years. It was after the battle of Geonosis that Obi-Wan chose to master Form III and Anakin chose to master Form V.

Outskilling Ventress, Vos and Grievous are impressive accomplishments but not 'outstanding' showings. In-fact, I recall a duel in which Count Dooku was not able to outskill Ventress and subdued her with his powers instead, I assume that Ventress had improved in lightsaber combat prior to this confrontation.

Vos is competent, but (not) counted among the masters of lightsaber combat.

And Grievous is known to fight dirty, relying on unorthodox methods and cheap tricks to win. I am not surprised that he lacks in actual skill in comparison to genuine masters of lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I wasn't debating raw power, I was debating swordsmanship skills. Quit with your red herrings.
You better quit with your unsubstantiated claims of BEST EVER regarding swordsmanship skills and dueling ability of PT era characters.

Originally posted by SunRazer
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721991-2314922-mace_sora_1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721992-2314923-mace_sora_2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721993-2314924-mace_sora_3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3721994-2314925-mace_sora_4.jpg
Thank you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even Mother Talzin managed to duel Mace Windu with a magic sword and press him, and she is not an expert swordsman.
Isn't that the proof to the contrary, that she is.

Originally posted by Stigma
Isn't that the proof to the contrary, that she is.
Sidious 'easily' outdueled her, remarking that her dueling skills pale in comparison to that of Count Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Mace Windu is another Asajj Ventress in the making; his lightsaber duels produce no outcomes. Even Mother Talzin managed to duel Mace Windu with a magic sword and press him, and she is not an expert swordsman. Heck, Darth Maul was able to duel both Mace Windu and Aayla Secura simultaneously in a confrontation with them.

In the nutshell, almost any individual of note and his mom is able to duel Mace Windu.



LOL @ taking these out of context. Maul dueled Aayla and Mace for ONE panel before their duel was interrupted, whereas Sora matched him for four pages. Talzin's clash with Mace was saberlocks (strength, not skill) or her swinging and failing to land a hit. Doesn't constitute any sort of equality or comparable skill with Mace.



Bulq's losses are to people who would hand Zallow his ass, or circumstantial. I don't need to repeat myself again - do you understand?




That's not a valid argument. You can't just grant somebody a threat level they never showed.



LOL @ you bringing up blurs as if they're anything special. If you even bothered to click the link provided earlier, you would realize that Dooku formed blurs out of his blade at twelve years of age, and in his prime he's moved faster than Obi-Wan, who has formed shields, fans and webs out of his blade and deflected fire from ten thousand droids at once.

He's also moved fast enough for his blade to be seemingly everywhere, even against AotC Kenobi, who is a respectably fast Force user himself (even TPM Kenobi was canonically faster than Qui-Gon, who has disarmed people faster than a breath could be taken and formed shields out of his blade).

Those also easily exceed Zallow's blitzing fodder. Bringing up titles doesn't mean anything - Xedrix was an "esteemed" Sith Lord as well, and considered one of the most powerful in the Empire because of his status, but he had to resort to trickery against a novel Scourge and when he tried fighting Scourge directly, he got his ass served to him. But if you want a response, Dooku's blitzed Magnaguards in the Dark Lord Trilogy, where they've received quotes to suggest they have sub-light reflex speed and a host of other accolades. I'm aware they're presented in a much worse format in other sources, but in the Dark Lord Trilogy, that's simply what they are, and Tyranus's feat was performed in that trilogy.

Dooku has comfortably beaten Pre-TCW Grievous before, who has slain numerous reputable Jedi Masters. Yes, he has been challenged before, but Grievous boasts some of the highest levels of physical power, speed and unorthodoxy in SW history. You can check out his respect thread by I_Like_Swords for confirmation of this.



This just shows how you have no idea of what you're talking about, whatsoever. You have no concept of context, and you're information is just sorely incorrect in a myriad of ways too great for me to list here. Read up respect threads on each of them or start picking up the relevant source material and reading it before you spout nonsense, please. Especially on Grievous and "lacking in actual skill" - I'm referring to Pre-TCW Grievous, and your claim is just so unsubstantiated that it's laughable. And before you mention Mace using Crush on Grievous, hitting them with a Force power when they're not in dueling range doesn't constitute skill with a blade or physical prowess - areas in which Pre-TCW Grievous is easily among the best in history.

I'll give you a boost to spare you some reading, though - Dooku ran away because his intention was to leave because of the growing number of Jedi there. Mace interrupted Dooku's departure, and they clashed blades briefly with no real edge on either side, then Dooku's Magnaguards intervened and knocked Mace away. Dooku's already confirmed by more than one source to be Mace's equal with a blade. AotC Anakin and AotC Obi-Wan are both fairly quite remarkable swordsmen - and Dooku subdued Ventress with his powers in their first fight after holding back in a duel against her. As for their second fight, Ventress ran away after attacking Dooku, which resulted in him using his powers to stop her, disarm her, and wreck her. Ventress with two of the best Nightsister swordsmen (according to Talzin) could only duel a drugged Dooku to a draw, lol. And Ventress is skilled enough for Mace to require "all of his skills" to defeat her. Don't tell me how inconsistent he is again, please.




I never mentioned Dooku and "best" in the same sentence, so this is yet another red herring. More importantly, I've provided you with plenty of feats which you seem to be content with ignoring the context of, or flat-out dismissing them as "unimpressive" despite those duelists being all impressive in their own right.

Don't turn the bias card on me, though. You have a long history of supporting SWTOR's side, so....

And before you say it, I'm not a PT fanboy, since I appreciate most eras (except Legacy), and I've supported TOR numerous times, even on this board.



No offense, but I love how you insist on debating and correcting me on the PT era when you don't even know something as commonly known as this.

And it's not just one source, it's several:

"With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled." - Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda." - http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA

"Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council." - Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Originally posted by SunRazer
No offense, but I love how you insist on debating and correcting me on the PT era when you don't even know something as commonly known as this.

And it's not just one source, it's several:

"With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled." - Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda." - http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA

"Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council." - Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
Those are all era-specific sources and accolades.

This is how Mace Windu is ranked in a source which covers galactic history:

Mace Windu (above) is regarded as one of the greatest lightsaber-wielders of the Old Republic.

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

You are aware Dooku has more showings of his speed than being described as a "blur", right?

Bulq based on hype and better feats.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious 'easily' outdueled her, remarking that her dueling skills pale in comparison to that of Count Dooku.

That is true. His exact words were "you control Dooku's body but you possess none of his skill."

I would like to point out two things though:

1) Talzin was indeed controlling Dooku's body. Common sense and logic dictate that this would be an impediment due to the simple fact that its an unfamiliar body. It doesn't stand or move the same way as her regular one. The centre of mass is different, height and reach are different etc.

And that's not even considering the possibility of the host mind resisting the possession, even subconsciously.

2) Talzin was using Dooku's lightsabre, a considerably different weapon to the fire scimitar she used against Mace, and one she's unfamiliar with. Swords aren't all exactly the same. If you're an expert with say, a Chinese jian, that doesn't make you an expert with a British sabre or broadsword. Different stances are used, different kinds of grip and so on.

I no longer bother with Legend, but the era-specific quotes apply to Mace Windu, because Mace is in that era.... more importantly, he asked me what proves Yoda is the best duelist OF HIS ERA, and then he replies with "that's era-specific quotes".

That in of itself disproves the need to respond to any of that. Good day to you, sir.

^^^

Yoda might be the most skilled lightsaber combatant of his era, I do not deny this. I simply pointed out that the sources that you have cited for this matter are era-specific. No rocket science in this.

I accept your concession.

lol You asked me what proves Yoda is the best of his era. I gave you multiple quotes to confirm that, and then you told me the quotes are "era-specific", which pretty much demolishes all of your credibility and proves you don't even follow the argument.

Nobody's conceding to you (nor would they ever) - I'm ignoring you, that's all. Waste of time and effort to deal with anything else.

I think Zallow is sorely underrated in comparison to the rest of his era, tbh.

I agree he's one of the best Jedi of his era though imo