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Battle takes place on neutral ground

Round 2: Battle takes place in the Tomb of Freedon Nadd


*Son of Dathomir Maul
* ROTJ Darth Vader
*ROTS Count Dooku

Sidious> Caedus> Kun> Vader> Dooku> Maul.

Team 2 wins.

Sidious was struggling with Maul

Caedus would best him handily

You're worse than any other person I've encountered on the internet...

Let the Sidious wank continue.

Team 2.

Caedus can hold off Sidious, Vader beats Dooku and Kun beats Maul.

Caedus would beat Sidious or at least hold stun him via illusions or shatterpoint (which Windu used to good effect). There is no reason to believe he can beat Caedus when he's struggled in beating the brothers/taken down by a lesser duelist to Caedus i,e Mace Windu

I haven't seen anyone else who shits on TOR and Sidious at the same time. What you're doing will destroy all that is good. I beg you, restrain yourself.

Ok.

Originally posted by Sinious
I haven't seen anyone else who shits on TOR and Sidious at the same time. What you're doing will destroy all that is good. I beg you, restrain yourself.
The end is near, brace yourself.

So a contrary opinion to the constant fellating over Sidious is a bad thing? I don't get it. Honestly, he's struggled with duelists Caedus would stomp hell even Fisto was able to last a few seconds, Maul forced him down in a bladelock, and he lost to Mace Windu.

He'd lose solidly to Caedus

Originally posted by carthage
So a contrary opinion to the constant fellating over Sidious is a bad thing? I don't get it. Honestly, he's struggled with duelists Caedus would stomp hell even Fisto was able to last a few seconds, Maul forced him down in a bladelock, and he lost to Mace Windu.

He'd lose solidly to Caedus
I agree that Caedus would win but it would definitely not be a solid victory.

Originally posted by carthage
Sidious was struggling with Maul








Originally posted by carthage
Let the Sidious wank continue.

Do people seriously have Caedus above ROTS Sidious now? :/

Sidious is more powerful, faster, smarter, more experienced, has a more unpredictable fighting style and a deeper understanding of the force and the dark side. He is superior in every way tbh.

Team 2. While Caedus holds Sidious off, Kun humiliates Maul with Force powers and Vader beats Dooku.

Originally posted by Sinious
Do people seriously have Caedus above ROTS Sidious now? :/

Sidious is more powerful, faster, smarter, more experienced, has a more unpredictable fighting style and a deeper understanding of the force and the dark side. He is superior in every way tbh.
Caedus demonstrated far more cunning, versatile and unpredictable style than Sidious ever had. Sidious is less experienced, has more knowledge but not experience. Speed argument is just a biased opinion, Caedus is as fast as Luke, which is as fast as it gets. Caedus is not pure darksider like Sidious, doesn't know Force storm but his potential and power is on level, if not above due to blood line from chosen one.
And of course Caedus put up a much better fight against far more experienced Luke than Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Caedus demonstrated far more cunning, versatile and unpredictable style than Sidious ever had.

Sidious is all about those features you list. Hell, the character is based on them. He makes his enemies believe they're winning, makes them believe Sidious has weaknesses and baits his enemies. Knowing all 7 forms helps too and since he is like 10 times more intelligent than Caedus, I doubt Caedus will have any advantage in this area.



Do you actually believe every character that gave Luke a decent fight after DE is above or on par with Sidious in speed? Luke is the most inconsistent guy ever and that fight was all about circumstantial dynamics.



Potential =/= actualized power.



Desann > Sidious confirmed then?

Caedus isn't more cunning, versatile, unpredictable, or more experienced than Sidious, lol.

Sidious is older than Caedus and has fought Mace and co, fought TPM Maul, fought TCW Maul and Savage, has fought Yoda, has implicitly sparred with Plagueis, is a master of all seven forms, etc.

He's also taken on armies of Kursid warriors and has faced being enclosed by rings upon rings of droids, as an apprentice. Yes, he had Plagueis's aid, but it's still impressive, in part because it's decades prior to RotS.

Originally posted by Sinious
Sidious is all about those features you list. Hell, the character is based on them. He makes his enemies believe they're winning, makes them believe Sidious has weaknesses and baits his enemies. Knowing all 7 forms helps too and since he is like 10 times more intelligent than Caedus, I doubt Caedus will have any advantage in this area.

Opinion. Forms don't mean shit. Sidious made Windu believe so much that got kicked in the face. Made Luke believe so much that got his hand chopped off.


Luke had hard time in some unfavorable circumstances. However, in this case Luke had advantage due to surprise attack and Caedus still fought him to a stalemate.


His actualized power was enough to experience deepest Force unity ever known, roll 40x20 meter ship with a smile, deflect turbolasers with Force barrier without any problem and hold B-Wing in Force grasp during star fighter battle.


Desann ran away from Luke after short saber exchange, nice try though.

Oneness doesn't constitute power. Barriss displayed Oneness twice, but that doesn't put her above Luke.

Originally posted by Arhael
Opinion. Forms don't mean shit. Sidious made Windu believe so much that got kicked in the face. Made Luke believe so much that got his hand chopped off.

Hmm, lets see. Do we know that Windu's circumstantial Vaapad is the only reason he could keep up with Sidious? Yes. And did Sidious get exactly what he wanted after he got kicked in the face? Yes. Is that a coincidence? I think not.



Luke still seems to perform differently against different foes.

Was that a stalemate? (Actually asking) I remember Luke dominating him quite well in most parts of the fight.

More importantly, Sidious tried to defeat Luke in his own game. Had they faced each other alone on an open field in an all out fight with morals off, Sidious would defeat him.



And Sidious was so fast and skilled that he was able to easily take out 3 jedi masters while the second best duelist of the order's golden age was fighting alongside them. He did more than just stomp Darth Maul and Savage who have a lot of impressive feats them selves. Yoda is more powerful than Jacen in the force and Sidious instantly overwhelmed him with his lightning.



So for a short amount of time, he stalemated Luke in sabers and had taken him out with the force? Like I said, inconsistency.

It wasn't instantly - it was a protracted contest with full effort from both sides. The RotS novel has Palpatine outright overpowering Yoda, but other sources have them as equals and Yoda losing only because of his worse positioning and weight.

Re: Luke vs. Caedus

Luke didn't back off because Caedus was stalemating him. He backed off because he was too close to the Dark Side due to 'vengeance for murdered wife.' He pulled Ben out of there too, as Ben was in full 'vengeance for murdered mom' mode.

I'm inclined to think Caedus can't, actually, keep up with Luke when the latter is morals off. Morals on, though, every fight he had with Caedus was a potential trip into the dark side due to feelings of vengeance. Killing Mara before confronting his uncle was a master stroke on Caedus's part, in terms of keeping Luke relatively contained.

Caedus is on RotS Sidious's tier. Is he above him, though? I have my doubts.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Re: Luke vs. Caedus

Luke didn't back off because Caedus was stalemating him. He backed off because he was too close to the Dark Side due to 'vengeance for murdered wife.' He pulled Ben out of there too, as Ben was in full 'vengeance for murdered mom' mode.

I'm inclined to think Caedus can't, actually, keep up with Luke when the latter is morals off. Morals on, though, every fight he had with Caedus was a potential trip into the dark side due to feelings of vengeance. Killing Mara before confronting his uncle was a master stroke on Caedus's part, in terms of keeping Luke relatively contained.

And iirc, Luke showed superiority in several occasions especially in the force until the fighting ended.

Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm, lets see. Do we know that Windu's circumstantial Vaapad is the only reason he could keep up with Sidious? Yes.


So what are you saying? That if Windu had Mastered and Utilized a different form he wouldn't have been able to keep up with Sidious?

I think you overestimate the difference a Lightsaber form makes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what are you saying? That if Windu had Mastered and Utilized a different form he wouldn't have been able to keep up with Sidious?

I think you overestimate the difference a Lightsaber form makes.

In that specific moment, Vaapad was that important. Windu's own inner darkness was peaked and Sidious' own negativity om top of that gave Windu an unussual amount of amp.

Do you really think that Windu is fast enough to keep up with the guy who can blitz his council buddies?

Originally posted by Sinious

Do you really think that Windu is fast enough to keep up with the guy who can blitz his council buddies?


Yes, because Lucas flat out said Windu can compete with Sidious.

And because we already saw Dooku (Windu's equal) keep up with Yoda (Sidious's equal). Or was that a one-off circumstantial Lightsaber fight as well?

I never said he would be instantly outdueled but he wouldnt't keep up with him as long as he did with Vaapad.

Lucas said a lot of stupid things tbh.

Well, competing with someone doesn't mean they have a chance.

To use a football analogy, the Patriots won the super bowl. Tampa Bay and Tennessee had the worst record in the NFL.

Can Tampa Bay 'compete' with the Patriots? Sure. It's a professional team. What's going to happen as a result of that competition? The answer is obvious.

So saying Mace competes with Sidious is about on par with saying Tampa Bay competes with the Patriots. They can both get on the field, but...well.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well, competing with someone doesn't mean they have a chance.

To use a football analogy, the Patriots won the super bowl. Tampa Bay and Tennessee had the worst record in the NFL.

Can Tampa Bay 'compete' with the Patriots? Sure. It's a professional team. What's going to happen as a result of that competition? The answer is obvious.

So saying Mace competes with Sidious is about on par with saying Tampa Bay competes with the Patriots. They can both get on the field, but...well.


Nah, by that definition Fisto competed against Sidious.


Lucas clearly meant fight on a competitive level, i.e. they have a shot at winning. And Mace actually did win in that scenario.

Lucas just said that Mace could compete, and he could - in that specific moment of amplification Mace received. He's the only one who can do that - Yoda being the only one who can realistically keep up with Palpatine in an actual fight, no amps included.

Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm, lets see. Do we know that Windu's circumstantial Vaapad is the only reason he could keep up with Sidious? Yes. And did Sidious get exactly what he wanted after he got kicked in the face? Yes. Is that a coincidence? I think not.

Vaapad is a regular lightsaber style for Windu, nothing circumstantial. You have no proof that Windu was amped by Sidious' darkness. And your speculation on this is irrelevant.


Doesn't matter what it seems to you. There was a case where Luke had broken leg, when faced Queller. There was a case, where Luke was out of shape at beginning of NJO. There was a case, where Luke had doubts, which allowed Lomi to drain him as well as become invisible. There was a case, where Lumiya hid behind hostages. Otherwise Luke did well in all other encounters. Inconsistency is a made up excuse to lowball Caedus in this case. Luke was in good shape, blood-lusted and badly injured Caedus right at beginning due to surprise attack and still it was a stalemate.


It was. They both badly battered each other. Fight ended, when Ben stack knife in Caedus' back.


Luke's game? What are you talking about? Sidious electrocuted Luke before fight started. Sidious prefers lightsaber fight to Force fight, look at the fight against Windu and Sidious. They faced each other alone and in open field. Leia doesn't make any difference there as she was mere observer. Regardless, Sidious lost to much less experienced Luke, than the one Caedus fought.


Non of it compares to badly battering prime Luke despite starting the fight at huge disadvantage.


First, you are exaggerating things. Desann DID NOT Force handle Luke. He force pushed Luke right after Luke landed from high jump and it didn't harm him, he gracefully somersaulted back. Then Desann used lightsaber throw to topple sealing, which allowed him to escape, Luke did not get harmed by that either.

Desann being able to last a few seconds on screen against Luke does not make inconsistency, it makes Desann more impressive, he was the main villain of the game, don't forget that. Bottom line he ran away becaue he knew he stands no chance against Luke.

Can this continue for another few pages? It's entertaining lol.

I don't see how Mace defeating Sidious proves Caedus' superiority.

Originally posted by Angelalex242

I'm inclined to think Caedus can't, actually, keep up with Luke when the latter is morals off. Morals on, though, every fight he had with Caedus was a potential trip into the dark side due to feelings of vengeance. Killing Mara before confronting his uncle was a master stroke on Caedus's part, in terms of keeping Luke relatively contained.
You should re-read the fight. Luke was blood-lusted and had his morals off.
Right at beginning Luke tried to cut Caedus in half but only damaged kidney instead. Then moments later tried to cut him across chest and even cut his head off. Luke displayed no holding back there at all. Even in the moment, when Caedus got trapped by vines, Luke tried to finish him off. Luke held back only after Ben stabbed Caedus in the back and he was at his mercy. But until then Luke tried to kill Caedus swiftly and quick without a hint of mercy. Out of all books, Luke demonstrated the most lethal and deadly combos he ever did.

He was just as bloodlusted in Sacrifice, but it's a pretty stupid theme. What's even more stupid is just how ludicrously inconsistent Legacy era Luke is.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Barriss displayed Oneness twice, but that doesn't put her above Luke. When did Barriss display Oneness??

Still, the fight played similarly to ROTJ Luke vs. Vader...where Luke wins, then goes 'oh crap I'm gonna be evil if I do this' and backs off.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He was just as bloodlusted in Sacrifice, but it's a pretty stupid theme. What's even more stupid is just how ludicrously inconsistent Legacy era Luke is.

How so? Jacen was the only one capable of matching him in sabers without an amp or on without many other additional factors.

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't see how Mace defeating Sidious proves Caedus' superiority.

You probably wouldn't because you haven't read anything involving Jacen at all?

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't see how Mace defeating Sidious proves Caedus' superiority.

Because Jacen also has Shatterpoint and is more Powerful than Mace.

Remember Luke had already beaten Palpatine decades earlier.

@KingJoker - She records it twice, she gets it via some injection.

@Carthage - I don't know what that has to do with what I'm saying.

@DarthPower - Luke won after being amped by Leia's Force Harmony, he was also demolished in an earlier fight.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@DarthPower - Luke won after being amped by Leia's Force Harmony, he was also demolished in an earlier fight.
Leia did not amp Luke and she did not use Force harmony, there is absolutely no indication of that, it's just an assumption. In the audio novel it is clear that she is just a mere observer. They added their power only after the duel to counter Force storm.

As to the earlier fight, the difference is that Luke was corrupted by darkside, he wasn't himself, his mindset was a mess. In second fight Luke had clear mind and fully embraced lightside, that's why he performed much better.

The audio introduced/altered different parts of the comics (especially in Empire's End). In it, she claims Palpatine and Luke are faster than she can see but she doesn't do that in the comics. She wasn't amping him in the audio drama, but in the comic, she's clearly glowing/giving off some light which was basically how they depicted Force Harmony. There's also another source claiming that Luke defeated Palpatine with Leia's help - I'll find it and post it.

That being said, Luke just short of Dark Empire was hardly on par with Palpatine, and as quickly as he grows in strength, it's not nearly that drastic. And if I recall correctly, Luke just after Dark Empire really wasn't Palpatine level, either. Clearly there's a level of discrepancy in his showings around this time.

The earlier fight in the cloning lab was not Luke's mind being a mess. He wasn't even corrupted - that happened after the fight. He had to draw on all of his resources to merely parry Palpatine's blows, but then again, Byss (and Palpatine) was a dark side nexus - but not one of considerable power. His corruption occurred after the duel, during it, he was resolute in fighting Palpatine, and if I recall correctly, either the Dark Empire endnotes or Dark Empire Sourcebook or some similar source confirms this.

Originally posted by SunRazer


@DarthPower - Luke won after being amped by Leia's Force Harmony, he was also demolished in an earlier fight.


That was on a Dark Side Nexus when Palpatine "demolished" Luke.

And if you read it instead of just looking at the pictures, they exchanged quite a few strikes even in that fight. So it wasn't the stomp people make out, even there.




Originally posted by SunRazer
She wasn't amping him in the audio drama, but in the comic, she's clearly glowing/giving off some light which was basically how they depicted Force Harmony. There's also another source claiming that Luke defeated Palpatine with Leia's help - I'll find it and post it.





You need more prrof than she was glowing. Luke was glowing when he first ignites his Lightsaber. So what? Like you've already pointed out, she wasn't amping him in the audio, and there's no description in the novel that says she was amping him.

As for your other source claiming Luke defeated Palpatine with Leia's help- you're right he did. She aided him in meditation to overpower Palpatine's force storm. That however has nothing to do with the Lightsaber clash earlier.

@DarthPower - What novel? And the fact that she was glowing when Luke dueled Palpatine, stopped glowing after, and then started using Harmony with Luke and Anakin again suggests it. As I said, though, I'm going to find the source, but I'm pretty sure either DE Sourcebook or DE endnotes has mention of Leia helping him.

I'm aware it's a dark side nexus, and no, it wasn't a lengthy exchange, lol. Luke surprised the Emperor with a Force Push to the wall, then they clash blades for two panels before Luke gets disarmed in the third.

As I recall, that source refers to the lightsaber duel, because it specifically mentions Sidious's Wormhole later.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@DarthPower - What novel?


The Graphic novel as in the Comic Book.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And the fact that she was glowing when Luke dueled Palpatine, stopped glowing after, and then started using Harmony with Luke and Anakin again suggests it.


It's hardly undeniable proof. Luke was glowing when he ignites his Lightsaber to block the AT-AT's fire. Proof would be words saying that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As I said, though, I'm going to find the source, but I'm pretty sure either DE Sourcebook or DE endnotes has mention of Leia helping him.


Yes she did, to overpower the Force storm. Not in the Saber battle.


Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm aware it's a dark side nexus, and no, it wasn't a lengthy exchange, lol. Luke surprised the Emperor with a Force Push to the wall, then they clash blades for two panels before Luke gets disarmed in the third.


Again read the words, instead of just looking at the pretty pictures. 2 Panels doesn't mean anything, when the words are saying their exchanging several blows.

If you're aware it was a Dark Side Nexus then stop bringing it up as proof.

1. Ah, okay.

2. That's because he was using Barrier to repel the fire, lol. And before you ask me why it's Barrier, it's because the blaster bolts were repelled by that "glow". Odd representation of Barrier? Yes, but this is quite an old source.

3. That's not what I was talking about.

4. Exchanging "several blows" doesn't stop it from being a stomp - Kit exchanged "several" blows before he was felled. It also states Luke had to draw upon all of his resources to fend off Palpatine's strikes.

5. It was a nexus, but not a dramatically powerful one. If it wasn't there, then the fight would be longer, but Luke wouldn't win a single match if we played the fight over ten times.

@Arhael -

1. I was just noting that the audio drama does some things differently.

2. Nah - if it wasn't for Force Harmony, that feat would be inconsistent. Only a year earlier, Luke was nowhere near Palpatine. I'm aware that Luke's growth in power and skill is incredible, but not to that extent.

The NJO era starts long after DE, I'm talking about events occurring one or two years later.

3. Are you reading the same fight as me? Luke has only TK'ed Palpatine when he took him by surprise (presumably), he didn't use Lightning. Unless you're talking about something else, it's just Luke TK'ing Palpatine, who draws a lightsaber, they duel, and Luke gets disarmed.

Originally posted by SunRazer


2. That's because he was using Barrier to repel the fire, lol.


Point being Glowing doesn't necessarily mean anything. It can just be the artist showing Leia is in the background. Or that her ray of light has aided Luke escape the dark side like he said.

Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Exchanging "several blows" doesn't stop it from being a stomp - Kit exchanged "several" blows before he was felled. It also states Luke had to draw upon all of his resources to fend off Palpatine's strikes.




It looked a lot more like an even exchange than Palpatine vs Fisto.


Originally posted by SunRazer

5. It was a nexus, but not a dramatically powerful one. If it wasn't there, then the fight would be longer, but Luke wouldn't win a single match if we played the fight over ten times.


The description has it as completely soaked in the dark side or something.

A Nexus is a Nexus. Can't make assumptions on what would happen without it.

But then we did see them fight Off a Nexus with Luke being in the right state of mind, and we saw what happened.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@KingJoker - She records it twice, she gets it via some injection. Is it in the MedStar novel(s)?

Well, ya gotta admit, a lot of the books actually written would be kinda boring if Luke performed at peak capacity in every one of them.

@KingJoker - I think so.

@DarthPower -

1. You're saying I need more proof except you haven't provided anything for that being "a ray of light helping Luke escape". Luke was already freed of Palpatine's corruption, for one, and that glow is identical to the Force Harmony glow.

No, it's not showing Leia's in the background, because after the fight, Leia is shown in the background again - with no glow.

2. Luke parried Palpatine's strikes with maximum effort, got forced back, and then disarmed. Obviously better than Kit, but not by too much. He still lost solidly.

Also, Caedus isn't a match for Luke in all-out. In sabers, he's very close, but in Force, Luke pinned him easily earlier on and he couldn't get out. He was taken by surprise, but he admits he wouldn't be able to break out anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Arhael -

1. I was just noting that the audio drama does some things differently.

2. Nah - if it wasn't for Force Harmony, that feat would be inconsistent. Only a year earlier, Luke was nowhere near Palpatine. I'm aware that Luke's growth in power and skill is incredible, but not to that extent.

The NJO era starts long after DE, I'm talking about events occurring one or two years later.

3. Are you reading the same fight as me? Luke has only TK'ed Palpatine when he took him by surprise (presumably), he didn't use Lightning. Unless you're talking about something else, it's just Luke TK'ing Palpatine, who draws a lightsaber, they duel, and Luke gets disarmed.

1. It looks like Force harmony to you. It looks like comic author style. I can bring you images of Han, Lando and C-3PO glowing from that comic, don't have time to do it right now. Anyway, get back to me on this, when you find a proof that it was Force harmony during duel. I am 100% sure there is no source that would state that. Both comic and audio make it clear that Luke and Leia used combined effort only for the Force storm.

2. Luke a year earlier was pretty impressive. He faced mad clone C'baot, who was insanely powerful and did very well. Luke had difficulty against him only in final fight, when C'baot used Luke's clone who's mere presence badly affected Luke. Anyway, Luke won't look as impressive as Palpatine even years later because he relies mainly on lightsaber, while Sidious has a bunch of destructive powers. Same for Windu, he doesn't look very impressive in general, yet, he outskilled Sidious.

3. From audio book script during first duel with Sidious:
EMPEROR: Did you think you could conquer me by coming here to Byss--to the very heart of the Dark Side?

LUKE: You forget -- I am a Jedi Master now. And I KNOW something about the Dark Side!

Sound: Luke unleashes his OWN Force lightning on the Emperor. The old (young) man crashes against the wall.



He is. They fought all out, both used lightsaber and Force. The example, whe Luke pinned him doesn't count because Caedus did not try to counter Luke's TK with his own. He did not admit he couldn't break it. He did not want to risk provoking Luke by using Force against him.

1. Glowing exactly like that? Somebody else mentioned a "glow" except it wasn't like that at all.

2. C'baoth's powerful, but has zero lightsaber skill. That being said, his general speed and power feats just don't match up.

Mace never outskilled Palpatine. Barring the fact that he was amped in that fight, the novel also claims that the fight was an impasse and could go on forever. He won by exploiting a "Shatterpoint" that ended up being completely non-existent and made up by Sidious.

Numerous sources canonically confirm that Yoda was more skilled than Mace, yet he only fought as an equal for Palpatine.

3. Ah, you meant that. As I said, the audio drama does things differently.

Originally posted by Sinious
My speculation?

"Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center- And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."

Mace was angrier and more disturbed than he had ever been when he found out about Palpatine's true identity. The Chancellor of the Republic which he fought for was the cause of so many loses and pain in his life.
He was amped both by his own inner darkness and Palpatine's. Not much to argue here.

Metaphorical gibberish common in that book. Vaapad is a lightsaber style and state of mind. It cannot give an amp from opponent directly. Windu gets amped from relishing fight, from being in the right mindset. With same success Windu was consumed by Vaapad, while deflecting blaster bolts in another book.


Luke was pressing advantage at beginning because of surprise attack. Right at beginning Luke damaged his kidney and commissioned his head with strikes. Yet, Caedus managed to gain distance and recover. Yes, Luke was somewhat more dominant but he got battered just as badly. Had Caedus been ready for the fight, outcome would have been more even.


No.






Ok, fine. That doesn't prove much. Best combatants Sidious had is brothers, Windu, Yoda and Luke. In all cases Sidious fought mostly with lightsaber. Whatever Sidious prefers, lightsaber combat is the most important factor and both Luke and Caedus are above him in that regard.


Mindset indeed matters. Luke with doubts can be weak. However, angry Luke is just as impressive as Luke fully embracing light. Or you forgot how Luke outskilled Vader in anger despite having very little saber training? Fight with Caedus is the most impressive Luke's fight I read out of all books. Nowhere else Luke fights as effectively and as lethally.

Anakin vs Kenobi is a bad example on your part. Anakin did very well in that fight, he constantly drove Kenobi back. Kenobi was barely surviving that fight but unlike Dooku he did not underestimate him and constantly gave ground to survive. Anakin did very well but circumstances played against him.


It's not logic, it's you lowballing a character due to lack of knowledge.
You can't know, if Sidious would be able to speed-blitz or one-shot Desann. From what we know about Desann is that he is good enough to last against Luke at least for a few seconds and able to escape. He was a difficult opponent even for Kyle Katarn after he restored his powers. Don't forget that Kyle is a very skilled Jedi Master at that point who previously trained Mara.

Yoda dis-armed Sidious off-screen in the script, he beat him in pure sabers.

Happens in the old script and junior novel, but not in the novel and other sources which claim they were equals. Sources disagree on this, unfortunately.

Also, if I remember correctly, Gillard implies or states that Yoda and Sidious are equals with a blade and Mace is just beneath them. Need to reaffirm the quote, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Glowing exactly like that? Somebody else mentioned a "glow" except it wasn't like that at all.

2. C'baoth's powerful, but has zero lightsaber skill. That being said, his general speed and power feats just don't match up.

Mace never outskilled Palpatine. Barring the fact that he was amped in that fight, the novel also claims that the fight was an impasse and could go on forever. He won by exploiting a "Shatterpoint" that ended up being completely non-existent and made up by Sidious.

Numerous sources canonically confirm that Yoda was more skilled than Mace, yet he only fought as an equal for Palpatine.

3. Ah, you meant that. As I said, the audio drama does things differently.
1. It won't be exactly like that cos author draws things differently.
In that particular scene background is dark and she is drawn on a distance, lighter surrounding was required. If you think it is Force harmony, then explain me first why Luke and Leia do not give out any glow during actual Force harmony to counter Force storm. Audio novel makes it clear there is no aid during duel. Even if you don't agree, audio overrides comic as it is newer.

2. His saber skill is irrelevant as he did not let Luke to close in. C'baot's power though easily approaches Sidious'. In final fight C'baot produced boulder storm, used lightning and mental attacks simultaneously. He maintained that boulder storm for a very long period of time. If not for Force storm, Sidious would not have any comparably impressive Force feats. Also, on death C'baot like Sidious produced huge explosion that damaged building.

When one opponent out-duels another - it is called outskilled. Mace outskilled Sidious. Indeed, Shatterpoint did not do anything and yet Windu still outdueled Sidious.

In ones source it says that Windu was ever beaten by Yoda and Dooku. Gillard says that he is second only to Yoda. Making of RotS gives Windu level 9 combat prowess just like to Yoda. Anyway, it's off topic. Bottom line Windu's skill and power was enough to beat Sidious.

3. The fact that Luke fell to the darkside is same for both sources. Luke regretted falling to darkside many years ahead.

1. They were, and it doesn't override the comic, lol. That's like saying the junior novel of RotS overrides the RotS main novel, lol.

2. You really don't know Sidious's feats, do you? Because Mind Controlling twenty billion people > Mind Controlling 40 000. Also, Sidious mused he could collapse his office with a thought, which exceeds C'baoth's TK feats. Also, Sidious passively using Battle Meditation to support fleets/armies on a galactic scale whilst doing other things > C'baoth's "=40% efficiency" Battle Meditation. And again, these are all before DE, where Sidious is stated to have grown in power.

3. Mace was equal to Sidious with amps - he won because he was allowed to, lol. The novel very much states that he wasn't outright better than Sidious.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. They were, and it doesn't override the comic, lol. That's like saying the junior novel of RotS overrides the RotS main novel, lol.

2. You really don't know Sidious's feats, do you? Because Mind Controlling twenty billion before reaching his prime > Mind Controlling 40 000. Also, Sidious mused he could collapse his office with a thought, which exceeds C'baoth's TK feats.

3. Mace was equal to Sidious with amps - he won because he was allowed to, lol. The novel very much states that he wasn't outright better than Sidious.
1. Bad analogy.
Both comic and audio have equal canon level. The later one takes precedence over earlier one. Regardless, you are yet to prove Leia aided Luke during duel, so far you haven't provided anything.

2. What? twenty billion? Before prime? 40000? What are you even talking about? Sidious never mind controlled 2billion or 40000. He put Byss under spell, which allowed him to drain them. I think you need to check mind control definition.

3. What amps? Windu defeated Sidious without anyone amping. Vaapad is not an amp, it's is lightsaber style and mind set.
I never said that Windu is outright better. It's just you give too much thought to the word "outskilled". Even perfectly even opponents can out-skill one another.

First of all, Sidious mind-wiped absolutely everybody that saw the launch of the Lusankya from Coruscant.

Secondly, Mace Windu's defeat of Sidious was entirely circumstantial, his Vaapad performed to a far greater degree than it ever normally does. It's an outlier feat. It is not par for the course with Windu's wider array of combat feats

1. So is the junior novel/main novel. That doesn't let them override each other, it's just different interpretations of it. And I'm looking for the quote, lol. And even if the quote doesn't exist, it's inconsistent for the reasons mentioned above.

2. It was mind control, lol. Or "mind enslavement", for the exact quote. He also did it on Coruscant, which has a population of a trillion.

3. There was an amp, the novel claims that. Vaapad channels a person's inner darkness into a weapon of light, and the novel makes repeated references to Mace's drastically enhanced inner darkness. There's a whole blog on it online.

4. Except he had an "environmental advantage" and Sidious is still heavily implied to have faked the duel. He never "outskilled' Sidious or beat him legitimately.

A silver blog at that, definitely one of his best reads.

Originally posted by AncientPower
First of all, Sidious mind-wiped absolutely everybody that saw the launch of the Lusankya from Coruscant.

Secondly, Mace Windu's defeat of Sidious was entirely circumstantial, his Vaapad performed to a far greater degree than it ever normally does. It's an outlier feat. It is not par for the course with Windu's wider array of combat feats
Which book is that from? Curious about specifics.

X-Wing: Krytos Trap and The New Essential Guide to Characters for Palpatine's feat, or RotS novel for Mace's amp.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. So is the junior novel/main novel. That doesn't let them override each other, it's just different interpretations of it. And I'm looking for the quote, lol. And even if the quote doesn't exist, it's inconsistent for the reasons mentioned above.

2. It was mind control, lol. Or "mind enslavement", for the exact quote. He also did it on Coruscant, which has a population of a trillion.

3. There was an amp, the novel claims that. Vaapad channels a person's inner darkness into a weapon of light, and the novel makes repeated references to Mace's drastically enhanced inner darkness. There's a whole blog on it online.

4. Except he had an "environmental advantage" and Sidious is still heavily implied to have faked the duel. He never "outskilled' Sidious or beat him legitimately.
1. No inconsistency until proven. You see Leia highlighted with lighter color on background, you assume it is Force harmony even though she does not glow during actual Force harmony during Force storm. You create inconsistency in order to lowball Luke's feat.

2. That feat cannot be quantified in terms effort. Lets stick with combat feats that actually can be observed.

3. No amp. As you quoted: "Vaapad channels a person's inner darkness into a weapon of light". It is as metaphorical as it gets. Windu accept his speed and fury - metaphor. Superconduit - metaphor. All that happens in Windu's head. Amp - is when you perform better due to actual Force enhancement. But Vaapad is all about mental aspect and saber style. In reality Windu draws on Force in order to fight, Sidious draws on Force, there is nothing else to it. Anakin in book observe the fight and to him it was simply Windu cutting loose.

4. No environmental advantage. Only 3 fodder Jedi at beginning that did not make much difference. Lucas confirmed that Sidious started feigning weakness only after being out-dueled, so no need for the theory that Sidious threw up the fight. Regardless, I agree that Sidious is better than Windu and would beat him more times than vise versa.

Just checked.
"Not knowing all of the details surrounding the burial, some New Republic observers later speculated that either all the witnesses to this event had been executed, or that Emperor Palpatine had used the Force on a massive scale to command everyone to forget what they saw." - from wookie. So if this info is correct it's not even clear, if Palpatine actually mind wiped anyone in that case. Even if he did, it required to wipe memory only from witnesses, which is unknown how many were there. In other words, useless feat.

1. The inconsistency isn't about Leia's Harmony, that's just my way of trying to make sense of the feat. The simple fact is that Luke a year before/after really isn't comparable to/above Palpatine in sheer speed/power/other traits except raw skill with a blade.

Also, they don't glow on paper, but they text claims they do.

2. It's minimal effort, since he can do other things at once. In other words, it's better than C'baoth's showings - by a lot. So no, C'baoth doesn't compare to Palpatine, which in turn means Luke of Thrawn Trilogy really doesn't.

3. Except Mace cutting loose should've blitzed Dooku on the account of the faster Anakin not being able to see Mace and Palpatine fighting. Instead, however, in LoE, he dueled evenly with Grievous for some time to the point of being disinterested in further dueling, leading him to BFR Grievous with TK instead. Mace just isn't good enough to beat Palpatine in a strict duel, and yes, he was amped. This is something that can actually be proven, moreso than the Leia Harmony.

4. Yes, it was. He forced Palpatine out onto the edge where his speed was reduced in order for him to hold on to the slippery permacrete, as per the novel.

5. Lucas never confirmed that, lol. And the blog I mentioned does address that, so you clearly didn't bother to touch it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Just checked.
"Not knowing all of the details surrounding the burial, some New Republic observers later speculated that either all the witnesses to this event had been executed, or that Emperor Palpatine had used the Force on a massive scale to command everyone to forget what they saw." - from wookie. So if this info is correct it's not even clear, if Palpatine actually mind wiped anyone in that case. Even if he did, it required to wipe memory only from witnesses, which is unknown how many were there. In other words, useless feat.

Why don't you check the direct-from-source quotes from here: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/rotj-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101094/

Instead of searching up non-canonical wikis? Just control-F "Lusankya".

Originally posted by Arhael
Metaphorical gibberish common in that book. Vaapad is a lightsaber style and state of mind. It cannot give an amp from opponent directly. Windu gets amped from relishing fight, from being in the right mindset. With same success Windu was consumed by Vaapad, while deflecting blaster bolts in another book.

You can't disregard it like that. Besides, every other showing from the characters suggest that Mace was performing much better than he normally would ant that's the important part.




Like I said, Luke had disadvantages too. He was harmed from the fight with Lumiya and Caedus hit him in the right spot(also in the beginning of the fight). By your own admittance, Luke was more dominant in that fight and in a prior confrontation, Luke absolutely dominated him with the force without any effort. He is clearly superior in the force and though I can't find it now, I remember reading Caedus' confession on how he was inferior to Luke as a duelist as well(I'll keep this to myself for now though).

The only reason why that fight was so close is because Luke was in a bad state of mind.



That proves that you were misinformed. Like I said, Sidious arrogantly attempts on besting the jedi in their own game. He can turn any duel into a force fight when he wants as he did against Yoda and Starkiller.



As I said above, Luke had a much easier time dealing with Caedus in their prior confrontation. Clearly, he wasn't in a stable state of mind.

No, Anakin didn't do well. Anakin is normally capable of out dueling Dooku, a much better combatant than Kenobi. Yet he failed to defeat him in their duel and overpower him in their TK clash.




Nice try though Desann didn't just escape. He was able to send Luke flying with the force and showed better usage of the environment. He had the upper hand in that confrontation for a decent amount of time even though he would die if he stayed. This is what I meant when I said you think every character that lasts against Luke is above or at least comparable to DE Sidious.

team 1 they have the better force weilders.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sidious> Caedus> Kun> Vader> Dooku> Maul.

Team 2 wins.

This.

Originally posted by Sinious
I haven't seen anyone else who shits on TOR and Sidious at the same time. What you're doing will destroy all that is good. I beg you, restrain yourself.

Is that a reference to the Father's quote to the Son in Mortis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBBad4-3CzM

Yes it is.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The inconsistency isn't about Leia's Harmony, that's just my way of trying to make sense of the feat. The simple fact is that Luke a year before/after really isn't comparable to/above Palpatine in sheer speed/power/other traits except raw skill with a blade.

Also, they don't glow on paper, but they text claims they do.

2. It's minimal effort, since he can do other things at once. In other words, it's better than C'baoth's showings - by a lot. So no, C'baoth doesn't compare to Palpatine, which in turn means Luke of Thrawn Trilogy really doesn't.

3. Except Mace cutting loose should've blitzed Dooku on the account of the faster Anakin not being able to see Mace and Palpatine fighting. Instead, however, in LoE, he dueled evenly with Grievous for some time to the point of being disinterested in further dueling, leading him to BFR Grievous with TK instead. Mace just isn't good enough to beat Palpatine in a strict duel, and yes, he was amped. This is something that can actually be proven, moreso than the Leia Harmony.

4. Yes, it was. He forced Palpatine out onto the edge where his speed was reduced in order for him to hold on to the slippery permacrete, as per the novel.

5. Lucas never confirmed that, lol. And the blog I mentioned does address that, so you clearly didn't bother to touch it.

1. There is no inconsistency. Luke's most impressive feats are mainly with lightsaber because he is a Jedi, not Sith. Nevertheless, Luke's feats prior/post DE are more impressive than Yoda's/Windu's. In Courtship of Princess Leia Luke safely landed himself, his x-wing and Isolder from sky fall, while other Jedi can barely land themselves.

Shortly post DE Luke rebuild and destroyed Vader's Fortress with TK. In same book he lifted B-Wing with himself inside before starting engine without much effort, compare that to Yoda struggling to lift a pillar in AotC.
Luke rarely abuses Force but that doesn't mean he is below Sidious in power.

2. Saw the link you provided. Thanks for that. As I said cannot be quantified. You assume that the feat was done with minimal effort. If this feat happened, I can assume that it was a ritual like feat that took a lot of effort. Sidious never demonstrate what C'baot did during combat, although I am sure Sidious can. Point is don't act like C'baot wasn't a powerhouse in those books.

3. Stupid logic. Blitz Dooku? Dooku demonstrated to be fast enough to fight Yoda although he ran away after a short time. It absolutely makes sense that Dooku could stalemate Windu for some time too, which is what he did before running away.

As of Grievous, he can attack from multiple angels, which requires defensive fighting style to defeat Grievous. Windu's style is offensive, hence Grievous wasn't an easy opponent. It is not Windu's low showing, it is Grievous' high showing. And Windu himself confirmed that Kenobi has the best style to counter Grievous.

Nope, Windu was not amped, you can't prove he was. Vaapad is not an amp, it is lightsaber style and state of mind. It has nothing to do with Force amp, it is all to do with fighting at your best with the right mind set and technique.

4. That's not environmental advantage, that's circumstances and luck on Windu's part. Nothing stopped Sidious from forcing Windu out of window.

5.
From RotS audio commentary:
Originally posted by George Lucas
This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something I added later.

Originally posted by Sinious
You can't disregard it like that. Besides, every other showing from the characters suggest that Mace was performing much better than he normally would ant that's the important part.

What other showings? I partially addressed it to SunRazer. Let me know, if you want me to address anything else.


Luke is slightly better than Caedus, I never denied that. It more than enough competency to take down Sidious.

Where Luke pinned Caedus, Caedus did not try to use Force to counter Luke, so the example is irrelevant.
Luke's state of mind was good, he was blood lusted and that is the only reason Luke was more dominant during the fight.
Caedu's confession doesn't mean much as from their fight it is clear that they are on the same level.


Yep. And when he can't win the Force fight, he will have no choice but continue with lightsaber. Caedus might not know Force storm and essense transfer, he is still likely more powerful than Sidious.


As I said. Caedus did not try to fight back in prior meeting. He tried to avoid provoking Luke and sort it out with words instead. You can see from the text that Caedus tried to move but did not try to use Force.


Anakin is not normally capable to outduel Dooku. Anakin managed to grab Dooku's hand and chop his hands off after a few clumsy lightsaber strikes, in other circumstances Anakin might not be as lucky.

Anakin's performance against Kenobi is far more impressive than against Dooku.
He was pressing him non-stop. But Kenobi is better than Dooku at defensive style and with knowledge of Anakin's moves could survive anyting unlike Dooku.
Anakin is not as skilled with TK as Dooku and before he could overpower Kenobi with TK, they got split up by explosion.


At no point Desann showed upper hand. Force pushing Luke just after Luke landed from a high fall, which did not cause any damage to Luke, is nothing impressive.

We see them exchange lightsaber strikes literally for 2 seconds before he runs away. This example proves nothing and has no relevance to fight with Caedus where both characters performed extremely well in a long fight and both were badly battered. There is no single Luke's fight after Caedus, where he would fight as impressively and lethally as against Caedus.

@Arhael -

1. How on earth are pre-DE Luke's feats above Yoda?

Yoda never failed to lift a pillar, lol. Facial expressions are overrated, and film media doesn't correlate with EU showings.

2. I'm aware of how powerful he is, but Sidious is plainly better.

3. Actually, several sources claim Yoda held back, but this is an area in which sources disagree. But in any event, he should have blitzed Ventress, yet sources state he required everything he had to defeat Ventress.

4. Read the blog about Sidious vs Mace before you tell me he wasn't amped, lol. It's a complicated affair but it's certainly logical/supported by evidence.

5. That was addressed in the blog as well. You really didn't bother to read it, did you?

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Arhael -

1. How on earth are pre-DE Luke's feats above Yoda?

Yoda never failed to lift a pillar, lol. Facial expressions are overrated, and film media doesn't correlate with EU showings.

2. I'm aware of how powerful he is, but Sidious is plainly better.

3. Actually, several sources claim Yoda held back, but this is an area in which sources disagree. But in any event, he should have blitzed Ventress, yet sources state he required everything he had to defeat Ventress.

4. Read the blog about Sidious vs Mace before you tell me he wasn't amped, lol. It's a complicated affair but it's certainly logical/supported by evidence.

5. That was addressed in the blog as well. You really didn't bother to read it, did you?

1. You just rendered your entire argument useless. You said Luke is not as impressive as Sidious before and after. How impressive character seems depends on media and author style. Regardless, Luke showed enough impressive stuff prior to DE to believe that he can beat Sidious at least in sabers at that point.

2. Sidious is better Force wise. Jedi do not abuse Force like Sith and for that reason they rarely look as impressive. Yoda and Windu have done nothing impressive with Force comparing to what Sidious demonstrated.

3. In script/novel Yoda dodged Dooku's saber attacks for a bit without fighting back. That's the only holding back part. But then Yoda went full offensive on Dooku - no evidence that he held back at that point. In film Yoda was passive during Force fight. But in sabers Yoda went full offensive straight away, no evidence of holding back.

Who should have blitzed Ventress? Anakin? She has enough feats to demonstrate that she can't be blitzed by anyone. Your logic doesn't help here. If you want to prove something, you need to give actual evidence, not speculations.

4. I not gonna read someone a blog, where author can't spot the difference between metaphor and real thing. Vaapad is not a Force power, it can put practitioner into the right mindset, nothing more. Character can be amped either by nexus, by BM or someone channeling Force into him deliberately.

5. I don't care where it is addressed. It is a proof that Sidious did not fake his saber loss.

1. lol I rendered nothing useless. Luke's feats aren't really above Yoda's as of this time, and what pre-DE feats suggest he can beat Sidious in sabers?

2.Yoda's actually been stated as Sidious's equal in the Force, though, or at least, RotS Sidious.

3. He doesn't go on the offensive in some sources, but as I said, it's an area where sources disagree.

I meant Mace should've blitzed Ventress, which is obvious since we're discussing Mace. Anakin has nothing to do with this.

4. To quote you, "you just rendered your entire argument useless". If you're not going to read something I provide out for the sake of an ad hominem, then there's nothing I can do for you, and this discussion is over.

And I find it quite arrogant of you to dismiss something without even reading it just because it threatens your argument or supports mine. But until you actually read and comprehend it, don't expect another response from me. And it doesn't conflict with Lucas's statements - it addresses them, as I said. If you don't care where it's addressed, then I don't care for your argument. Goodbye.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But in any event, he should have blitzed Ventress, yet sources state he required everything he had to defeat Ventress.




That's clearly an exaggeration though, given that would put Windu on TCW Kenobi's level at best.



Originally posted by SunRazer


And I find it quite arrogant of you to dismiss something without even reading it just because it threatens your argument or supports mine. But until you actually read and comprehend it, don't expect another response from me. And it doesn't conflict with Lucas's statements - it addresses them, as I said. If you don't care where it's addressed, then I don't care for your argument. Goodbye.


It's not exactly fair of you to not provide an argument and instead refer your debator to a blog. A blog's not exactly something he can argue back against. That would require him making his own blog, going into detail about every point of your blog.

I didn't ask him to retaliate against a blog. I've made this argument elsewhere countless times, but copying the entire argument onto here is not something I would enjoy doing, nor is a giant wall of text entertaining to read.

My points are just in that blog, which will probably explain it better than I could (and it has substantial evidence to support those points as well). I'm asking him to read the blog so he knows what I'm saying, but refusing to read the blog at all is essentially refusing to read my argument. He can take as much time as he wants - I don't have set time limits on debates before declaring a victor or something, unlike some others, but it's just that if you don't even make an effort to try an understand the opposition's argument, then why bother responding at all?

And I'm sorry if I came off as harsher than I intended to, or if I will do so again in the near-future, since I'm currently under some stressful issues at the moment.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. lol I rendered nothing useless. Luke's feats aren't really above Yoda's as of this time, and what pre-DE feats suggest he can beat Sidious in sabers?

2.Yoda's actually been stated as Sidious's equal in the Force, though, or at least, RotS Sidious.

3. He doesn't go on the offensive in some sources, but as I said, it's an area where sources disagree.

I meant Mace should've blitzed Ventress, which is obvious since we're discussing Mace. Anakin has nothing to do with this.

4. To quote you, "you just rendered your entire argument useless". If you're not going to read something I provide out for the sake of an ad hominem, then there's nothing I can do for you, and this discussion is over.

And I find it quite arrogant of you to dismiss something without even reading it just because it threatens your argument or supports mine. But until you actually read and comprehend it, don't expect another response from me. And it doesn't conflict with Lucas's statements - it addresses them, as I said. If you don't care where it's addressed, then I don't care for your argument. Goodbye.

1. I gave examples of Luke's TK feats that are more impressive than Yoda's or Windu's. You blamed media difference. Yet, you say that Luke's feats aren't as impressive. That doesn't make sense.

Luke stalemated Vader in RotJ in sabers and even beat him in rage. He was hardly trained at the time. At some point later Luke beat Lumiya. Lumiya wasn't an easy opponent even for prime Luke, which implies that Luke's saber skill was close to perfection even before DE.

2. Stated to be equal is not the same as demonstrate Force feats. If we go by that logic Luke was stated to become what father could be, which is above Sidious.

3. Yoda goes offensive in all three sources: script/novel/film, unless you have some other sources in mind. Regardless, film source is more than enough to base opinion on.

4. Yep, it is pretty much over. You point me to speculations of a random author. Superconduit loop, channel inner darkness into weapon of light, accept speed and fury - those are all metaphors that cannot be taken seriously. Regardless, whatever is the case Windu is at best on par with Yoda in sabers, so whatever you will bring up will not change my mind about where Caedus is in terms of combat prowess.

Did you mean this blog?
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/

If yes, I read it ages ago and outright disagreed with it for the reasons I gave you.

1. I did ask foremost for what proves Luke is above Sidious before DE, but you were also blatantly lowballing Yoda. Maybe using some Legends showings to make it fairer might work? Yoda was never strained against the pillar in the novel, nor was he strained against the X-Wing, whereas the film implies he was. And Yoda's easily lifted entire battalions of droids, slammed together a pair of several-hundred-meter vessels, etc.

2. Luke is above Sidious, lol. But that's Luke in his prime, which isn't DE Luke.

3. There's also the junior novel, etc.

4. You claim everything is a metaphor because you don't like it? As for channeling inner darkness - that's not a metaphor, that's the function of Vaapad. And Mace isn't on par with Yoda, as numerous sources have confirmed Yoda's superiority. And I posted those sources here before as well, in the Ven Zallow vs Sora Bulq thread. The one source which suggests Mace's unparalleled skills is obviously "hyperbole", and it's outnumbered anyway.

5. You'll have to give me an actual rebuttal before I can actually respond to that, lol. But if you want to call it off, then be my guest.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I did ask foremost for what proves Luke is above Sidious before DE, but you were also blatantly lowballing Yoda. Maybe using some Legends showings to make it fairer might work? Yoda was never strained against the pillar in the novel, nor was he strained against the X-Wing, whereas the film implies he was. And Yoda's easily lifted entire battalions of droids, slammed together a pair of several-hundred-meter vessels, etc.

2. Luke is above Sidious, lol. But that's Luke in his prime, which isn't DE Luke.

3. So junior novel takes precedence? It is clear both in script and novel that Yoda tried to kill him. Even if we assume that Yoda did not try to kill Dooku, disarming techniques are just as effective, it is easier to disarm opponent rather than kill. Dooku held his own against Yoda on two occasions, there is nothing more to it.

4. You claim everything is a metaphor because you don't like it? As for channeling inner darkness - that's not a metaphor, that's the function of Vaapad. And Mace isn't on par with Yoda, as numerous sources have confirmed Yoda's superiority. And I posted those sources here before as well, in the Ven Zallow vs Sora Bulq thread. The one source which suggests Mace's unparalleled skills is obviously "hyperbole", and it's outnumbered anyway.

5. You'll have to give me an actual rebuttal before I can actually respond to that, lol. But if you want to call it off, then be my guest.

1. That cartoon source was claimed by Filoni to be exaggerated. Regardless, as you pointed media differences yourself, it makes it impossible to make real comparison.

2. Agree to an extend. Imho Luke reached his potential by that point but was still not as skilled with certain Force techniques as he is in later books. Hence he could match Sidious in sabers but to counter Force storm he needed Leia's help. Later on Luke incorporated unarmed combat into his saber style, which made him even more dangerous with lightsaber.

3. So junior novel takes precedence? It is clear both in script and novel that Yoda tried to kill him. Even if we assume that Yoda did not try to kill Dooku, disarming techniques are just as effective, it is easier to disarm opponent rather than kill. Dooku held his own against Yoda on two occasions, there is nothing more to it.

4. I say it is metaphora because it is. Inner darkness is Windu's personality, temper, negative emotions, anything associated with darkside. Vaapad allows him to use those emotions for good. It's all about state of mind. For some characters it is anger. For some characters it is calm. For Windu it is Vaapad. There is no way to prove that Windu was enchanced by Vaapad against Sidious more than he was against Kar Vastor, Grievous or blaster bolts...

5. Well, you have theory that Sidious threw up saber fight. I gave you quote that disproves it. I don't see what else I need to add. Anyway, it hardly matters in this thread.

1. Filoni also claimed Council Members can destroy Luke and that Grievous sucks except for intimidation.

2. I don't know what you're talking about.

3. I never said it takes precedence, I said it's one of the areas where sources conflict and it's hard to claim one thing as "absolutely right."

4. Some of it is metaphorical but translating inner darkness into a weapon of light is not a metaphor.

5. Your quotes haven't disproved anything, and they were addressed in the blog which you still haven't read.

The fight between caedus and luke was far from a stalemate. These r jacens thoughts directly after the fight.

"Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on him than he had suffered himself, and had even escaped the garrote before ben struck. In fact it was probably that attack that had saved caedus life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of ben slipping so far to the dark side.

It was a memory that both frightened Caedus and burned his pride."

Sinuous is pretty spot on with his interpretation of Lukes mental state and disadvantages. He had a barely healed chest wound, was shocked and horrified at finding his nephew torturing his son, and spent the last parts of the fight worried about and protecting ben. Also ya Luke kind of surprised him i guess but that was only because he was able to hide his presence from Caedus even when he was right behind him, and the fact that ben told him luke was on the ship and coing for him, that he was getting closer, and finally right behind him. At some point it stops being a sneak attack and becomes jacen just being dumb.

Im also a little surprised that some people think that conflicted rage mode luke is a more effective/superior combatant to calm focused luke. A few example would be lomi and lumiya. When he faced them and had fears/doubts and anger they were tough fights. When he surrendered all of that and was all calm and peaceful and shit he tooled on them almost effortlessly. Before his final fight with lumiya where he killed her, on his way to face her he comments how calm and clear minded that he is.

"But apart from the fact that he was minus everything good in his heart except ben, luke felt like his old self for the first time in years. He felt clarity. He knew what he had to do, and there were no gray areas or ambiguities about who was right and who was wrong. For all his pain, the sense of clean focus gave him something to cling to."

The best example would be when he went to fight shimraa.- "jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding 2 lightsabers when he had come to jacens resxue. But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control luke demonstrated now.

His single blade might as well have been ten or twenty. He took steps at a lightning pace, burning his way thru dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen thru the force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet it all poured from a calm center; an eye. He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought.

In fact, Luke didnt seem to be there at all-physically or as an individual personality."

I just dont see how luke being shocked, horrified, and having much of his focus being on the welfare of his son makes him a superior or even close to equal combatant as his calm/focused self.

@ Arhael

I'm sorry I didn't see your reply to my last post. I'll respond asap.

Originally posted by Arhael
What other showings? I partially addressed it to SunRazer. Let me know, if you want me to address anything else.


Luke is slightly better than Caedus, I never denied that. It more than enough competency to take down Sidious.

Where Luke pinned Caedus, Caedus did not try to use Force to counter Luke, so the example is irrelevant.
Luke's state of mind was good, he was blood lusted and that is the only reason Luke was more dominant during the fight.
Caedu's confession doesn't mean much as from their fight it is clear that they are on the same level.


Yep. And when he can't win the Force fight, he will have no choice but continue with lightsaber. Caedus might not know Force storm and essense transfer, he is still likely more powerful than Sidious.


As I said. Caedus did not try to fight back in prior meeting. He tried to avoid provoking Luke and sort it out with words instead. You can see from the text that Caedus tried to move but did not try to use Force.


Anakin is not normally capable to outduel Dooku. Anakin managed to grab Dooku's hand and chop his hands off after a few clumsy lightsaber strikes, in other circumstances Anakin might not be as lucky.

Anakin's performance against Kenobi is far more impressive than against Dooku.
He was pressing him non-stop. But Kenobi is better than Dooku at defensive style and with knowledge of Anakin's moves could survive anyting unlike Dooku.
Anakin is not as skilled with TK as Dooku and before he could overpower Kenobi with TK, they got split up by explosion.


At no point Desann showed upper hand. Force pushing Luke just after Luke landed from a high fall, which did not cause any damage to Luke, is nothing impressive.

We see them exchange lightsaber strikes literally for 2 seconds before he runs away. This example proves nothing and has no relevance to fight with Caedus where both characters performed extremely well in a long fight and both were badly battered. There is no single Luke's fight after Caedus, where he would fight as impressively and lethally as against Caedus.

Mace Windu is shown to be on the same level with the likes Dooku who would be trashed by Sidious. They are clearly not on the same level. Everything about that fight tells us that Mace was amped. The novel confirms it too. So what are you trying to prove here?

Luke wasn't in good shape at all. He was wounded in the chest. Had conflicting thoughts. Was afraid of his own anger and was worried about Ben. I think the reason why that fight was more like a street brawl instead of a proper duel is because Luke was messed up inside and so he fought recklessly on a weird level. Since he was the one who dominated the fight, Caedus had to cope wit it.

LOL @ Caedus being more powerful than Sidious. Who is the strongest person that Caedus defeated with the force? Sidious in pre ANH, has easily taken care of Galen with his lighting. Galen himself has comparable force feats to Caedus.

That is your interpretation of the whole Dooku/Anakin/Kenobi dynamics and I get what you're saying. However, Dooku is clearly superior to Kenobi in every way. The fact that Anakin was "lucky" enough to beat him in a straight duel kinda supports my claim. Anakin was also messed up inside when he fought Kenobi and so he underperformed. Pretty simple.

Don't be fooled by the aggressive style that took place in this fight. Luke fought recklessly and lacked discipline and control. Just look at some of the fights in PT like Anakin vs Dooku or Sidious vs Yoda. They are focused and fight with a respectable style until one of them bests the other with superior skill or speed.

Luke simply puked his frustration on his nephew and I guess Caedus was enough to keep up? That doesn't put Caedus above ROTS Sidious.

@ Sinious, nice post

Originally posted by Raptor22
The fight between caedus and luke was far from a stalemate. These r jacens thoughts directly after the fight.

"Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on him than he had suffered himself, and had even escaped the garrote before ben struck. In fact it was probably that attack that had saved caedus life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of ben slipping so far to the dark side.

It was a memory that both frightened Caedus and burned his pride."

Sinuous is pretty spot on with his interpretation of Lukes mental state and disadvantages. He had a barely healed chest wound, was shocked and horrified at finding his nephew torturing his son, and spent the last parts of the fight worried about and protecting ben. Also ya Luke kind of surprised him i guess but that was only because he was able to hide his presence from Caedus even when he was right behind him, and the fact that ben told him luke was on the ship and coing for him, that he was getting closer, and finally right behind him. At some point it stops being a sneak attack and becomes jacen just being dumb.

Im also a little surprised that some people think that conflicted rage mode luke is a more effective/superior combatant to calm focused luke. A few example would be lomi and lumiya. When he faced them and had fears/doubts and anger they were tough fights. When he surrendered all of that and was all calm and peaceful and shit he tooled on them almost effortlessly. Before his final fight with lumiya where he killed her, on his way to face her he comments how calm and clear minded that he is.

"But apart from the fact that he was minus everything good in his heart except ben, luke felt like his old self for the first time in years. He felt clarity. He knew what he had to do, and there were no gray areas or ambiguities about who was right and who was wrong. For all his pain, the sense of clean focus gave him something to cling to."

The best example would be when he went to fight shimraa.- "jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding 2 lightsabers when he had come to jacens resxue. But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control luke demonstrated now.

His single blade might as well have been ten or twenty. He took steps at a lightning pace, burning his way thru dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen thru the force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet it all poured from a calm center; an eye. He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought.

In fact, Luke didnt seem to be there at all-physically or as an individual personality."

I just dont see how luke being shocked, horrified, and having much of his focus being on the welfare of his son makes him a superior or even close to equal combatant as his calm/focused self.

You do realize that you just make a bunch of opinions. There is no way to know how view of son being tortured affected Luke. It obviously angered him but anger makes Force user stronger. During fight first punch to the healed wound did not affect Luke, this disadvantage is exaggerated and still it is nowhere as bad wound as a fresh kidney wound.

Luke worried about son only in one moment near the end of the fight and again it does not prove that his performance was affected cos of that, worry for someone in fact can empower Force user as it gives them the reason to fight for. As example look at Galen's feat he performed to save rebels. Luke's fear for Leia is what gave him strength to defeat vastly more skilled Vader.

You say Luke was conflicted. It is clear he was angry, there is no proof that he was conflicted. Lomi Plo is bad comparison, Luke had doubts at that time. Against Jacen Luke had no doubts, his single intent was to kill Jacen, even when Jacen was trapped in vines, Luke had no hesitation to try to spare him.

Lumiya comparison actually proves my point. Luke killed Lumiya through desire to avenge for his wife, similar to how Luke tried to kill Jacen for torturing his son.

I don't see how bringing example of Luke in Unifying Force helps your argument either. In that book Luke performed only marginally better than Jacen and Jaina against Slayers. And in fight between Luke and Caedus they were described "faster than the eye could see". There is no need for excessive poetry to know that Luke and Caedus perform their best.

You can analyze all you want, you can't prove that Luke wasn't performing his best. I can't prove that he fought his best either but they way he fought looks very impressive to me.

Originally posted by Sinious
Mace Windu is shown to be on the same level with the likes Dooku who would be trashed by Sidious. They are clearly not on the same level. Everything about that fight tells us that Mace was amped. The novel confirms it too. So what are you trying to prove here?

Luke wasn't in good shape at all. He was wounded in the chest. Had conflicting thoughts. Was afraid of his own anger and was worried about Ben. I think the reason why that fight was more like a street brawl instead of a proper duel is because Luke was messed up inside and so he fought recklessly on a weird level. Since he was the one who dominated the fight, Caedus had to cope wit it.

LOL @ Caedus being more powerful than Sidious. Who is the strongest person that Caedus defeated with the force? Sidious in pre ANH, has easily taken care of Galen with his lighting. Galen himself has comparable force feats to Caedus.

That is your interpretation of the whole Dooku/Anakin/Kenobi dynamics and I get what you're saying. However, Dooku is clearly superior to Kenobi in every way. The fact that Anakin was "lucky" enough to beat him in a straight duel kinda supports my claim. Anakin was also messed up inside when he fought Kenobi and so he underperformed. Pretty simple.

Don't be fooled by the aggressive style that took place in this fight. Luke fought recklessly and lacked discipline and control. Just look at some of the fights in PT like Anakin vs Dooku or Sidious vs Yoda. They are focused and fight with a respectable style until one of them bests the other with superior skill or speed.

Luke simply puked his frustration on his nephew and I guess Caedus was enough to keep up? That doesn't put Caedus above ROTS Sidious.

You can't prove that Dooku would be trashed by Sidious because Dooku held his own against Yoda. Windu similarly held his own against Sidious. If you look closely Windu was on the defensive most of the fight but was lucky to disarm Sidious at the end.

You make baseless statements. Show me a single conflicting thought of Luke during fight from the book. Where did you read that Luke was worried of his own anger during fight? Stop making things up.

About chest wound:
"Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees."
As per text Luke wasn't hampered by the wound, it was a healed scar, all he got is painful sensation, which did not affect him. You can see that Luke followed up with effective combo. Regardless, this healed scar is nowhere as bad as fresh kidney wound dealt by Luke with a surprise attack.

That fight was like a brawl because that's how Jacen fights. Luke's combos clearly were very effective as he badly concussed Jacen right at the beginning of the fight. You are free to think that it is not as effective as standard lightsaber combat but you have no good basis for that. Anakin defeated Dooku by grabbing his lightsaber hand, not a standard saber technique. Windu defeated Sidious with kick in the face, again not a standard lightsaber tehnique. Mara defeated Lumiya and nearly killed Caedus with her brawl style of fighting.

Since when a character needs to defeat someone with the Force to evaluate power? Anyway, Caedus Force handled Katarn and Jaina.
As of Galen, read novel. Galen stalemating Sidious and made him haul in pain, and stopped only to save rebels.

Dooku is not superior to Kenobi in every way. Kenobi has much better saber defensive skills and stamina. Kenobi demonstrated it well, when he faced Maul/Opress and Anakin. For Dooku fight ended, when Anakin grabbed his saber hand. Anakin grabbed Kenobi's saber hand too but Kenobi proved to be more versatile than Dooku in that regard.

Originally posted by Arhael
You do realize that you just make a bunch of opinions. There is no way to know how view of son being tortured affected Luke. It obviously angered him but anger makes Force user stronger. During fight first punch to the healed wound did not affect Luke, this disadvantage is exaggerated and still it is nowhere as bad wound as a fresh kidney wound.

Luke worried about son only in one moment near the end of the fight and again it does not prove that his performance was affected cos of that, worry for someone in fact can empower Force user as it gives them the reason to fight for. As example look at Galen's feat he performed to save rebels. Luke's fear for Leia is what gave him strength to defeat vastly more skilled Vader.

You say Luke was conflicted. It is clear he was angry, there is no proof that he was conflicted. Lomi Plo is bad comparison, Luke had doubts at that time. Against Jacen Luke had no doubts, his single intent was to kill Jacen, even when Jacen was trapped in vines, Luke had no hesitation to try to spare him.

Lumiya comparison actually proves my point. Luke killed Lumiya through desire to avenge for his wife, similar to how Luke tried to kill Jacen for torturing his son.

I don't see how bringing example of Luke in Unifying Force helps your argument either. In that book Luke performed only marginally better than Jacen and Jaina against Slayers. And in fight between Luke and Caedus they were described "faster than the eye could see". There is no need for excessive poetry to know that Luke and Caedus perform their best.

You can analyze all you want, you can't prove that Luke wasn't performing his best. I can't prove that he fought his best either but they way he fought looks very impressive to me. im not sure which part your saying is my opinions but i think ur referring to me saying he was shocked and horrified. The text clearly indicates this.-

"it had to be a bad dream"

"Luke had to be imagining this"

"But he started to accept that the horrible scene was real"

And if u dont think finding jacen torturing ben took at leats part of his focus away from the fight, and that not fighting him with 100% focus is a disadvantage for luke then were just going to have to agree to disagree on thst one.


As for the chest wound vs kindy stab the text supports the chest wound as a disadvantage and the kidney shot as an actual advantage as stupid as that sounds.-

"Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with lumiya, and now his breath came in short painful gasps."

Compare that to- "even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster."

It actually made him stronger and faster with no mention of it hampering him.

I dont think i said he was conflicted anywhere. I said he fights better when he is calm and focused as opposed to angry and with his focus divided.

I dont see how the lumiya exapmple helps ur point at all. His reason for killing her might have been to avenge mara, but his mental state was one of calm focus, the opposite of how he fought jacen.

How did luke only do marginally better against the slayers? Iirc he was fighhting 6-8 at a time and was housing them, while jacen and jaina were only fighting 2-3 and struggling.

Originally posted by Arhael
You can't prove that Dooku would be trashed by Sidious because Dooku held his own against Yoda. Windu similarly held his own against Sidious. If you look closely Windu was on the defensive most of the fight but was lucky to disarm Sidious at the end.



Actually, I can. Maul and Dooku are same tier duelists(although I admit Dooku is slightly superior) and Sidious is proven to be capable of trashing Maul.



Raptor has provided the text that proves my statements aren't baseless regarding this.



You miss the point. I'm not saying the killing blow or the strike that ends the fight is supposed to be landed with a lightsaber but the fight in question is clearly a very emotional and personal one that lacked discipline and control. Both these characters are top tier duelists and would normally fight with more technique than the simple brutality they've displayed.

Sorry man, one duel with Luke(which he was losing) won't put Caedus above ROTS Sidious.

Team 1.

Basically this is how the battle will go down. Sidious will fight caedus, dooku will fight Kun and maul will fight vader. I'd say that SOD maul can hold off vader for enough time to get what team 1 needs. As duelist Sidious as of this time is slightly better than caedus so will be holding him off and when vader opens him up with one hand Sidious will use his true force lightning this taking vader out. Dooku will be holding off Exar Kun and winning thus Exar Kun would be taken out. Team 1 wins