Speed Rankings

KingD19

Metro Man is fastest hands down. Time literally stopped at least on a city wide basis and he screwed around for hours. He even had a directed energy weapon/laser(in space I think) frozen as he went about his day.

Quicksilver is second. Bullets were practically standing still and he was moving so fast even the tiniest tap amplified the force transferred a great deal. If he'd been hitting those guys as hard as he could they would have imploded.

Beast is third. He caught a bullet from point blank with the opposite hand he'd fired with. Also he did it with his fingertips which is even harder. He and Sing both showed some pretty good fight speed throughout the movie.

Agents were dodging bullets and showing high speed fighting, however Neo easily blocked everything Smith could throw at him once he evolved. Although that's just Neo getting better as opposed to Smith downgrading. And while the Agents were fast, they weren't moving so fast humans fighting them in the Matrix couldn't fight back.

Obi-Wan has a pretty decent movement speed feat but that doesn't count. Even with precog, blocking blaster bolts casually is impressive. His fight with Anakin got pretty fast paced.

Superman was never really all that fast in a fight. Sure he could fly to India in a few minutes from the US, but Faora was dancing around him like he wasn't worth her time and he could barely keep up, if you could even call that keeping up.

Don'know enough about Russel or Super Bride to comment on them.

StealthRanger

And like I said, they do at least move their arm a meter and a half before the bolt hits them, so yeah, still movement that's good enough for their precog to be relevant (again, a human isn't dodging bullet from less than 10 meters away even if he could see the future)

Or you know, take the best feats of a fictional universe and assume it to be definitive of their capability, like we do for every verse here when it comes to analysing fictional universes

Pretty regular chore in fiction, not really much of a justification

Why?

>implies losing to Faora is some kind of low end showing

ares834

Originally posted by StealthRanger
And like I said, they do at least move their arm a meter and a half before the bolt hits them, so yeah, still movement that's good enough for their precog to be relevant (again, a human isn't dodging bullet from less than 10 meters away even if he could see the future)

They move their arm before the trigger is even pressed.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Or you know, take the best feats of a fictional universe and assume it to be definitive of their capability, like we do for every verse here when it comes to analysing fictional universes

If by "we" you mean "you" sure. I don't do that though.

At the end of the day the Jedi simply aren't shown moving sonic speeds. They are lower lvl superhuman at best.

StealthRanger

Their blade reaches the bolt just before it reaches their body, if they were only low superhuman tier with precog, the blaster bolt would have reached their body before their lightsaber did

Try "pretty much every debating board this one included since vs debating became a thing"

Kind of why DBZ characters are relativistic planet busters or Bleach characters are hypersonic city busters, you know, top end feats (well that aren't SMvsFL type outliers anyhow)

ares834

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Their blade reaches the bolt just before it reaches their body, if they were only low superhuman tier with precog, the blaster bolt would have reached their body before their lightsaber did

facepalm

They have precog... I don't know how you can't grasp this. With precog they could have already positioned the saber before the bolt is even fired.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Try "pretty much every debating board this one included since vs debating became a thing"

I don't care about "pretty much every debating board this one included since vs debating became a thing" does. In the films, we see that the Jedi aren't moving anywhere close to hyper-sonic speeds. It's as simple as that.

Anyway, I'm done here. As anyone who has seen the films could clearly see Jedi don't move at hyper-sonic speeds.

Edit: I guess they can use force speed to run really fast. But even that doesn't appear to be anywhere near hypersonic.

KingD19

Originally posted by StealthRanger

>implies losing to Faora is some kind of low end showing

This thread is about combat speed, correct? So in this context, losing to Faora is a low showing as his speed is severely lacking. Even though that wasn't the point I was making, although you think it was. In that aspect Superman is pretty low on this list, because while he can fly fast as hell, he doesn't seem to be able to fight or react at those speeds.

If he did, he'd have schooled Faora as he was stronger. He wouldn't have been plodding around fighting Nam-Ek, and he and Zod's fight would have been a lot more fast paced.

StealthRanger

And I'm saying they're reflexes are at least at a level where their precog is relevant, how fast exactly that is, hard to say, but not too far away

I'd also like to think that SW character are not dumb enough to fire at a blade that's already there/moving there before they squeeze the trigger

And they do regularly fight groups of guys who use blaster bolts from several different angles and are fired at different times not too far apart. No peak human could achieve this kind of shit

Good for you

Well hypersonic was a bit of a high end estimate on my part I'll admit (though given blaster bolt speed feats in Geonosis, Hoth, Kasshyk, etc, I don't see why supersonic is hard to believe) but you can't really judge how fast something is just by how fast it "looked", you could do this for any fictional universe otherwise

lolcombatspeedargument

Ugh, I feel the age old DBZ vs comic thread vibes

Except Namek intercepted Superman while he was in motion, either way, means that Zod and Namek are just that ****ing fast

And as I said, yeah, how fast it "looked" doesn't mean shit, only feats mean shit, else I could pull this logic in any other fictional universe

KingD19

Originally posted by StealthRanger

lolcombatspeedargument

Ugh, I feel the age old DBZ vs comic thread vibes

Except Namek intercepted Superman while he was in motion, either way, means that Zod and Namek are just that ****ing fast

And as I said, yeah, how fast it "looked" doesn't mean shit, only feats mean shit, else I could pull this logic in any other fictional universe

Okay so what you're saying is...despite combat between Clark and Zod looking(as well as being) really slow in comparison to Faora(whose own speed was essentially high speed dashes where she threw punches at the same time), that they're still super duper uber fast in a fight? Despite all evidence to the contrary? Gotcha.

My list still hasn't changed.

And whether you like it or not, combat speed does not = movement speed.

Neo can't fight as fast as he can fly.

MoS Superman can't fight as fast as he can fly.

Deadpool from Origins could block bullets all day, but he ran around like a normal guy.

etc...

You not liking something doesn't change the fact.

StealthRanger

Yeah, that's just an argument from portrayal dude. Shit like speed lines, afterimages and blurs are just speed tropes meant to indicate speed, they're not quantifiers

There are many different ways of portraying speed in fiction, be it an instance of striking in a microsecond, or an instance of crossing thousands of kms in a second, or an instance of punching a character hundreds of thousands of times in a second. Speed feats come in different forms, and don't have to have speed lines or blurs to be legitimate

After all, Thor, Surfer and Glads have MFTL speed feats but they don't leave afterimages and speed lines and shit. Kenshin characters do leave speed lines, afterimages and blurs, yet only a select few character break the sound barrier

Feats and logical powerscaling always beat out stylistic portrayal

Nibedicus

StealthRanger

But really, if you try to say characters aren't x level of speed because they don't appear fast when they fight in some instances then that's just damn sad at best, and downright desperation at worst

You could use that argument in any fictional universe ever, seriously

Simple fact is that (quantifiable) speed feats are presented in different shapes and forms a few times throughout any series, everything else indicating super speed are just use of tropes, pretty much everything else is nobody being a ****ing retard and assuming they're going slower for no ****ing reason (if it's not stated, why assume such a thing)

I mean, let's be real, nobody's going to give two shits if x favorite DBZ character zipped around the planet several times in a few seconds in some instance, yet when the saga's namesake villain shows up and bitchslaps him they don't even zip between cities during their fight

And if you haven't grasped that concept by now, then what the hell you're doing in any vs debate is beyond me

KingD19

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Yeah, that's just an argument from portrayal dude. Shit like speed lines, afterimages and blurs are just speed tropes meant to indicate speed, they're not quantifiers

There are many different ways of portraying speed in fiction, be it an instance of striking in a microsecond, or an instance of crossing thousands of kms in a second, or an instance of punching a character hundreds of thousands of times in a second. Speed feats come in different forms, and don't have to have speed lines or blurs to be legitimate

After all, Thor, Surfer and Glads have MFTL speed feats but they don't leave afterimages and speed lines and shit. Kenshin characters do leave speed lines, afterimages and blurs, yet only a select few character break the sound barrier

Feats and logical powerscaling always beat out stylistic portrayal

What you need to realize is that film is a visual medium. We can only debate based on what we see, or what is directly stated. Even if it's just for effect to sell the illusion, if that's the illusion they're going for, that's all we can go on.

In Avengers, Quicksilver is fast enough to have a speed trail and people are pretty much standing still when he's doing his thing. There's no solid way to quantify his speed without some genius doing a bunch of calcs, but we know he's fast based on the world around him.

Superman based on what we see can fly really fast, but can't fight or react at high speeds like that. It's why his fight with Zod was basically haymakers and them crashing into each other. It's why it took everything he had to not get steamrolled by Faora who was the fastest thing in that movie by a mile.

StealthRanger

Yeah that's what i figured, your entire argument revolves around use of flashy speed tropes and portrayal, all of which are useless unquantifiable garbage, until you find a quantifiable speed feat, which puts them into perspective how impressive they actually are

Also, yeah, that's the case with characters who are primarily portrayed as speedsters vs character where speed is just a secondary power

Impediment

Hammy the squirrel from "Over the Hedge" is faster than all of these characters.

Hammy had an energy drink and literally moved at FTL speeds.

NemeBro

Originally posted by StealthRanger

Try "pretty much every debating board this one included since vs debating became a thing" Appeal to majority.

Cherry-picking the best feats is just as stupid as cherry-picking the lowest feats. thumb up

Anyway:

Metro Man > Superman > Quicksilver > The Beast = Agents (idk which would be faster) >=<? Obi > Russel

I have no idea how fast G-girl is.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Impediment
Hammy the squirrel from "Over the Hedge" is faster than all of these characters.

Hammy had an energy drink and literally moved at FTL speeds.

Holy crap! Forgot about him,

He was amped tho. But def him and Metroman compete for to spot.

http://youtu.be/z-eMdMsMgCU

StealthRanger

Just answering the "we" thing

Well you know, if the feats happen several times throughout the series, then it's kind of dishonest to dismiss them as outliers

I mean if I really wanted to "cheery pick the top end feats" I could have said they were relativistic because they react to and outmaneuver droid fighters blah blah blah statements from ROTS novelisation

EDIT: How fast is Russell anyhow?

NemeBro

Originally posted by StealthRanger

Well you know, if the feats happen several times throughout the series, then it's kind of dishonest to dismiss them as outliers

I mean if I really wanted to "cheery pick the top end feats" I could have said they were relativistic because they react to and outmaneuver droid fighters blah blah blah statements from ROTS novelisation

If you were to dig into the EU the Star Wars characters would indeed be much faster than I placed Obi.

But this isn't the EU board is it?

Also, the Obi feat which I assume you are referencing from the novelization isn't nearly as impressive as it has been wanked to, IIRC. thumb up

edit: now that you mention it, I put Russel too high.

StealthRanger

I actually meant statements about droid starfighters having near light speed reactions and processing capacity and Jedi being able to outmaneuver them

Placidity

Hey KingD19, I think you're cool. Sort of like me.

Silent Master

MOS Superman has zero feats of combat superspeed, the best he has is throwing punches while flying fast, those aren't the same thing.

Combat superspeed would allow people to do things like read books while the world is frozen, walk around and move bullets, or just cut bullets in half.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Rank the ff. From fastest to slowest according to best on screen combat speed (NOT travel speed) showing (low/average "feats" not allowed). No "assumption of speed" allowed. Speed must be visually evident in an on screen showing of GTFO.

-Quicksilver (X-Men: Days of Future past)
-Obi Wan (Star Wars franchise)
-Superman (MoS)
-Metro Man (Megamind)
-Agents (the Matrix)
-The Beast (Kung-Fu hustle)
-Russel Edgington (True Blood)
-G-Girl (My Super Ex Gf)

Clark (Smallville)
Metroman
Superman
Quicksilver

Nibedicus

Smallville Clark isn't in this thread...

Time Immemorial

Originall posted by Nibedicus
Smallville Clark isn't in this thread...

He is now, Appears your forgot about him.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
He is now, Appears your forgot about him.

Nope. Using MoS Superman only. Can't have 2 Supermen in one thread. Stick to topic plz. :-p don't wanna derail.

Time Immemorial

Ok no worries

FrothByte

KingD19

Originally posted by FrothByte
If it's just combat speed then...

Quicksilver
Metro Man
Russell Edgington
Matrix Agents
MOS
Obi Wan

I'm going to have to rewatch KungFu hustle and Super ex GF to comment on the Beast and G Girl.

Have you seen Mega Mind? There's no way Quicksilver is above Metro Man.

ares834

Metroman is way faster than Quicksilver. He seems to dick around town for hours and does things like read a book, rethink his life, and eat some food yet the time-frame is actually so small that he returns to the deathtrap and Megamind (who was watching him at the time) never realizes that Metroman left.

Edit:

q-EjM5OEg3A

KingD19

Originally posted by ares834
Metroman is way faster than Quicksilver. He seems to dick around town for hours and does things like read a book, rethink his life, and eat some food yet the time-frame is actually so small that he returns to the deathtrap and Megamind (who was watching him at the time) never realizes that Metroman left.

Edit:

q-EjM5OEg3A

Also he walked everywhere and was so fast that he made rainbows because the light didn't know how to interact with his body or something.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by FrothByte
If it's just combat speed then...

Quicksilver
Metro Man
Russell Edgington
Matrix Agents
MOS
Obi Wan

I'm going to have to rewatch KungFu hustle and Super ex GF to comment on the Beast and G Girl.

Metroman was walking in Superspeed froze time to a stop.

How on earth is QS faster dude?

FrothByte

Sorry my bad. For some reason I was thinking about Meteor Man. Agreed with everyone, Metro man over Quicksilver.

Robtard

Originally posted by Impediment
Hammy the squirrel from "Over the Hedge" is faster than all of these characters.

Hammy had an energy drink and literally moved at FTL speeds.

Metroman had basically the same showing. The world froze from his POV while he was moving.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Silent Master
MOS Superman has zero feats of combat superspeed, the best he has is throwing punches while flying fast, those aren't the same thing. He couldn't fight while flying hundreds or thousands of times faster than the speed of sound without reaction-time on that level.

Do not respond to me with this garbage again. thumb down

Silent Master

Throwing punches while flying fast isn't combat superspeed.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Silent Master
Throwing punches while flying fast isn't combat superspeed. Engaging in combat while moving at speeds much faster than any human could perceive at isn't combat super speed?

Yet Metro Man reading books and shit while time is virtually stopped is? Funny joke. thumb up

Silent Master

Again, fighting while flying really fast isn't the same as combat superspeed.

StealthRanger

"If I repeat the same thing over and over again it'll become true"

Silent Master

True, no matter how many times people repeat it, throwing punches while flying will never be combat superspeed ala Flash, Quicksilver or Metro Man.

StealthRanger

... you could use that argument for almost any character in fiction who's not primarily portrayed as a speedster

Speed feats in fiction come in different forms, it's a silly idea to focus on a single type of speed feat

Also nice "no u"

Silent Master

Per the op travel feats and guesses aren't allowed, so what concrete feats does MOS Superman have to support combat superspeed?

StealthRanger

>durr combat speed

Well if you have a way of figuring out "combat speed" beyond, you know, using quantifiable feats then I'd be please to hear it other then some retarded "can only be measured in combat"

If they threw punches at eachother while flying, then they';re obviously that fast, if they were only normal human, they wouldn't throw any attacks before they crossed several hundred kilometers in a second at all

Denial is not a valid counterargument

StealthRanger

Seriously though, I'll never understand why the combat speed fallacy is regarded as anything but just that

I mean, it originated in the DBZ vs Comic threads in MVC, the site was mocked by pretty much any respectable debating board for it, not sure why it's gained momentum

Silent Master

So you have no feats of Quicksilver/Flash Metro Man type superspeed for MOS Superman?

NemeBro

Originally posted by Silent Master
Per the op travel feats and guesses aren't allowed, so what concrete feats does MOS Superman have to support combat superspeed? Fighting at massively hypersonic speeds.

Are you trolling, or legitimately too stupid to understand this?

StealthRanger

Yeah, not every single character with speed feats has to be doing thousands of crazy speed tricks like they're the ****ing Flash in every damn situation they appear in, you know

Unless you're fine with saying god knows how many shonen characters, upper tier Warhammer characters, Guilty Gear characters aren't fast because their speed isn't portrayed as such (and they're not primarily portrayed as speedsters, so)

There are many ways of portraying speed in fiction

Silent Master

I didn't ask for flight speed feats.

StealthRanger

So... are you actually going to make an argument or just keep sticking your head in the sand?

Silent Master

It's nice that you think being able to throw punches while flying at superspeed is the same thing as your reactions being so fast that you can perceive and interact with the world as if everyone is a statue, but I disagree. IMO, Remove MOS Superman's ability to fly and Quicksilver and Flash would run circles around him.

As an example, Thor and Ironman were fighting while flying in the Avengers, yet I don't see anyone using that as proof that Ironman has superspeed reactions.

StealthRanger

"I don't have a valid argument so I'll just continue to stonewall with the same bullshit"

If you don't personally believe it, that's fine, but you don't get to dismiss it because it doesn't mesh with how you interpret it

If they were only normal human in reactions/attack speed they wouldn't have thrown any punches at all during their fight (after all, they cross 102 kms every second at least)

After all, it is a vs debate, not a roleplay of Little Britain

Argument from belief

Well hey now, Iron Man did dodge a tank shell and Thor kept up with him, so

Silent Master

I disagree and have explained my reason, I even gave an example of a normal human being able to fight while flying at well above human speed. take away MOS Superman's flight and Quicksilver and Flash would run circles around him.

Nibedicus

Guys, I already mentioned in my OP that travel speed is not considered here....

StealthRanger

Silent Master, I'll ask you here and now, because I'm damn serious here

How old are you?

I have a strong vibe I'm arguing with someone who's in their preteens

You don't make an argument, you just answer back to the opposition snidely and act smug about it like a 7 year old who yells swear words in class when he's told not to to try an get laughs out of the class

SSJGGogeta

lol, I love that you included Kung-fu hustle in this.

1. Superman (MoS) - He was clocked flying around half the Earth in like a second. That's... NEAR light speed. About 1/14th, conservatively speaking. No real defined speed feats other than that though. Still, 1/14th LS makes him faster than everyone else here, by leaps and bounds... An eighth of a mile tall... (sorry) erm

2. Quicksilver (X-Men: Days of Future past) - I believe he was clocked to be like mach 250 or something. Since the bullets fired at him were so still in comparison, and water itself was suspended in mid air, from his perspective. This could, however, be a low-end feat from QS, as not ONLY did he achieve this feat CASUALLY, but he even managed to screw around while doing so, even going so far as to give guards wedgies, taste soup that was cooking, etc. This is ludicrously above his comic book self though, which was... I believe mach 5 or 6? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If so though, then yes, it's ridiculous that they made him so much faster than he actually is.

3. The Beast (Kung-Fu hustle) - Hm... This one's kind of a toughy. However, I do remember that the Beast was capable of jumping into outer space, from his own estimation. Escape velocity on Earth is about 25,038.72 mph. The speed of sound is effectively 786 mph. This makes Beast, at least with jumping speed, around mach 31.86, which is pretty impressive.

4. Tied between:

Agents (the Matrix) - Well, the average speed of expansion for explosions, which they outran, iirc, is about mach 25 or so. So, they're likely a bit faster than that. thumb up

and

G-Girl (My Super Ex Gf) - Wow, been a minute since I've seen this movie, lol. Didn't she catch a nuke, and outrun the explosion or something though? That would be at least in the double digit machs.

5. Obi Wan (Star Wars franchise) - Well, tbh, most of Star Wars's feats are REALLY inconsistent. Especially going by the comics. They have really high end feats, and really low end ones. They don't seem that much faster than average humans though, in the movies. erm

Not worth mentioning here.

?. Metro Man (Megamind) - Never saw Megamind, sadly. erm

?. Didn't know where to place the *** from True Blood. erm

Nibedicus

No travel speed in this thread pls.

Just combat speed/reflexes.

StealthRanger

>combat speed fallacy

http://i.imgur.com/p6SP0.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/p6SP0.gif

Right, has this site become a second MovieCodec now?

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No travel speed in this thread pls.

Just combat speed/reflexes.

Is there a misunderstanding with this? Are land based speedsters considered the the only people that are allowed to be called "combat speed feats."

Because here we have Kryptonians who are not just subjected to land battles based on anti gravity powers.

Example:

Quicksilver could run in a straight line and punch fifty people going fast, and that would be acceptable as a "combat speed feat"

However,

If Man of Steel did the exact same feat but flying, that is now considered "traveling feat."

The exact same thing happened, just one was on the ground, and one was flying.

Its a double standard.

Same feat. Different delivery because of different powers.

StealthRanger

Can a character move and react at such a speed? If yes, then it counts as combat speed

StealthRanger

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/79-combat-speed-fallacy

Just because

Time Immemorial

If MoS was not able to react to other peoples movement who were faster then him, then no he would not have speed, however he did, so I dunno what the problem is. Faora was faster then him, once he learned how to counter it, that erases the idea he can't move fast.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Is there a misunderstanding with this? Are land based speedsters considered the the only people that are allowed to be called "combat speed feats."

Because here we have Kryptonians who are not just subjected to land battles based on anti gravity powers.

Example:

Quicksilver could run in a straight line and punch fifty people going fast, and that would be acceptable as a "combat speed feat"

However,

If Man of Steel did the exact same feat but flying, that is now considered traveling feat.

The exact same thing happened, just one was on the ground, and one was flying.

Same feat. Different delivery because of different powers.

Flying/travel speed is taken as a separate ability because characters being able to cross distances quickly does not necessarily equal being able to (1) percieve things at the same pace nor does it (2) equate to being able to move one's limbs at the same pace. Ex: Movie Silver Surfer, Human Torch.

Running speed (and ONLY the running speed that requires one to move one's arms and legs so fast that they travel at said speed) is usually the exception as it meets the (2) requirment as mentioned above. There are exceptions tho. Like moving fast because you manage to take giant powerfu lsemi-leap steps instead of fast steps. Ex. Ang Lee Hulk.

If you want to simplify it. Follow the "racecar driver rule". Racecars travel at over a hundred miles an hour yet drivers are pretty much able to react within these speeds, even make pinpoint maneuvers.

And yes, to be honest however, there can be arguments made on either positions. But that is NOT the point of this thread as I wanted pure, unquestionable "feats", not arguable ones.

I was very specific. Visually evident combat speed "feats" only.

StealthRanger

So Gotenks' speed feat in DBZ was him flying around the planet several times in a few seconds. Is this just "durr not combat speed"

This being the highest quantifiable speed feat in the series (barring animu filler anyhow)

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/79-combat-speed-fallacy

Just because

Really??

Posting an almost full-on rant wiki obviously written by an angry teenager battleboard poster?

Wow. Stop the presses! This debate is ovah! Obviously insightful tidbits like "usually DBZtards such as the Phenom Brigade and MvC wankers" have proven without a shadow of a doubt how true and credible this piece of wiki is...

...........

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
So Gotenks' speed feat in DBZ was him flying around the planet several times in a few seconds. Is this just "durr not combat speed"

This being the highest quantifiable speed feat in the series (barring animu filler anyhow)

You need direct proof and not inferential proof to prove with certainty that a character can perform an ability. Inferential proof is just that.

And the rule I made in the OP was VERY SPECIFIC. Stop trying to change the damned rules.

StealthRanger

Considering your "rule" is the same "durr combat speed" shit that was laughed out of here and everywhere else years ago when it was used by the Phenom Brigade and DBZ tards since 2006 and mocked ever since then, quite frankly, I don't give two shits about your "rules", and quite frankly, neither should anyone else

So according to you Gotenks isn't capable of fighting at Mach 30,000 speeds, much less Buu, Vegeta, Goku, etc?

Silent Master

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Flying/travel speed is taken as a separate ability because characters being able to cross distances quickly does not necessarily equal being able to (1) percieve things at the same pace nor does it (2) equate to being able to move one's limbs at the same pace. Ex: Movie Silver Surfer, Human Torch.

Running speed (and ONLY the running speed that requires one to move one's arms and legs so fast that they travel at said speed) is usually the exception as it meets the (2) requirment as mentioned above. There are exceptions tho. Like moving fast because you manage to take giant powerfu lsemi-leap steps instead of fast steps. Ex. Ang Lee Hulk.

If you want to simplify it. Follow the "racecar driver rule". Racecars travel at over a hundred miles an hour yet drivers are pretty much able to react within these speeds, even make pinpoint maneuvers.

And yes, to be honest however, there can be arguments made on either positions. But that is NOT the point of this thread as I wanted pure, unquestionable "feats", not arguable ones.

I was very specific. Visually evident combat speed "feats" only.

I think the problem is how people are defining combat speed, most of us the term to indicate how fast people can perform complex actions, like the aforementioned Quicksilver and Metro Man. while others use the term to mean 'can throw punches while flying really fast". as an example, I doubt either of us would have a problem saying that Smallvile and Lois and Clark Superman have combat superspeed. as they both have actual feats of performing complex actions ala QS and MM.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Considering your "rule" is the same "durr combat speed" shit that was laughed out of here and everywhere else years ago when it was used by the Phenom Brigade and DBZ tards since 2006, quite frankly, I don't give two shits about your "rules", and quite frankly, neither should anyone else

So according to you Gotenks isn't capable of fighting at Mach 30,000 speeds, much less Buu, Vegeta, Goku, etc?

You understand that insistently and directly disrergarding OP rules and causing a ruckus is only gonna get your reported right?

I never said any of that and neither am I going to dignify that with a repsonse as (1) they are not part of the OP. (2) this is not the freakin anime forums.

You know what? I'm just going to go ahead and report you. Good day.

StealthRanger

Yeah what are ya gonna do, ask for a CBR style mod ruling? By all means don't let me stop you dragging the site down to the levels of CBR with your shite

Point is, just because "it wuz fwight", doesn't mean it's automatically invalid as a combat speed feat, it's pretty much a case by case thing

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Yeah what are ya gonna do, ask for a CBR style mod ruling? By all means don't let me stop you dragging the site down to the levels of CBR with your shite

Point is, just because "it wuz fwight", doesn't mean it's automatically invalid as a combat speed feat, it's pretty much a case by case thing

You are directly and insistently disregarding OP rules even when asked to stop, you try to bring in characters NOT in the OP and you bring in anime characters in a movie VS thread. And you're saying that trying to bring order to the thread I made is "dragging the site down to the level of CBR"? Your standards of what brings a thread/site down are bizarre....

YES! THAT is EXACTLY what the hell I've been saying. It is a case by case thing. That is why DIRECT proof is needed and not INFERENTIAL evidence......

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Flying/travel speed is taken as a separate ability because characters being able to cross distances quickly does not necessarily equal being able to (1) percieve things at the same pace nor does it (2) equate to being able to move one's limbs at the same pace. Ex: Movie Silver Surfer, Human Torch.

Running speed (and ONLY the running speed that requires one to move one's arms and legs so fast that they travel at said speed) is usually the exception as it meets the (2) requirment as mentioned above. There are exceptions tho. Like moving fast because you manage to take giant powerfu lsemi-leap steps instead of fast steps. Ex. Ang Lee Hulk.

If you want to simplify it. Follow the "racecar driver rule". Racecars travel at over a hundred miles an hour yet drivers are pretty much able to react within these speeds, even make pinpoint maneuvers.

And yes, to be honest however, there can be arguments made on either positions. But that is NOT the point of this thread as I wanted pure, unquestionable "feats", not arguable ones.

I was very specific. Visually evident combat speed "feats" only.

Faora started off fighting MoS and was moving much faster then him, we all know she has combat speed. Once he figured out how to do the same thing he was able to react and counter. And this was on the ground. That's a combat speed feat.

Similar fighting style was happening when Zod and Mos were fighting except physics changed because they were in anti-gravity. But they were fighting at extreme speed and fighting and countering. As well as their punches causing shockwaves, meaning there arms were moving at a extreme high rate of speed. force=mass x acceleration

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Faora started off fighting MoS and was moving much faster then him, we all know she has combat speed. Once he figured out how to do the same thing he was able to react and counter. And this was on the ground. That's a combat speed feat.

Similar fighting style was happening when Zod and Mos were fighting except physics changed because they were in anti-gravity. But they were fighting at extreme speed and fighting and countering. As well as their punches causing shockwaves, meaning there arms were moving at a extreme high rate of speed. force=mass x acceleration

"Assumption of speed" or powerscaling is specificslly not allowed in this thread. This is an "only visually evident speed is allowed" thread.

If he does "feats" of moving fast in reacting to Faora's speed, however, that is allowed and you may post it here to prove your point.

FrothByte

What combat speed feats does Faora have?

Silent Master

They might be talking about where she charged at the soldiers at blur speeds and then stops in order to attack.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
"Assumption of speed" or powerscaling is specificslly not allowed in this thread. This is an "only visually evident speed is allowed" thread.

If he does "feats" of moving fast in reacting to Faora's speed, however, that is allowed and you may post it here to prove your point.

If he was not moving as fast as her, then he would not be able to counter her fast movement, yes?

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
If he was not moving as fast as her, then he would not be able to counter her fast movement, yes?

Not exactly. Slower fighters tag faster fighters all the time. Especially at short or grapple range. Heck, the other kryptonian (Nam-Ek was it?) who was moving pretty slow was tagging supes all the time. Visually evident means that it must be shown VISUALLY to be moving fast.

StealthRanger

When it's shit that's been mocked by every vs debating board since forever, yeah, I don't see the big deal

I like to think we all have a standard of "apply the same logic across fiction or don't apply it at all"

Being pedantic as **** isn't bringing order (:uvalaugh), it's being, well, pedantic

Okay, what exactly is your definition of "direct proof", since, you know, quantifiable speed feats only happen a few times throughout the series and the rest is just unquantifiable shit and speed tropes

StealthRanger

But seriously, constantly punching the **** out of eachother while flying around isn't combat speed, that's just retarded

It's on par with Phenom's "Flash and Zoom zipping around the planet many times isn't combat speed", even though they, you know, were exchanging punches and kicks the whole time

Time Immemorial

marwash22

Originally posted by NemeBro
Appeal to majority.

Cherry-picking the best feats is just as stupid as cherry-picking the lowest feats. thumb up

Anyway:

Metro Man > Superman > Quicksilver > The Beast = Agents (idk which would be faster) >=<? Obi > Russel

I have no idea how fast G-girl is. The Beast > Agents.

HQtIearBLAE

kAeFp-3qYfg

Nibedicus

Know what, stealthy? We're going in circles here. You insistently want to bring in logic/inferential evidence specifically disallowed in this thread and whine like a child when constantly reminded that such evidences is not considered here.... Are you familiar on how threads and rules work?

How is "being pedantic" bringing the site up/down? The whole point of why I am being overly strict with the rules I stated in my own thread is to avoid retarded back and forth evidential arguments like this. And yet you still manage to bring it in anyway, ignoring the rules of the forum.... SMFH. It is seriously like I'm arguing with a spoiled child here.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Okay, what exactly is your definition of "direct proof", since, you know, quantifiable speed feats only happen a few times throughout the series and the rest is just unquantifiable shit and speed tropes

"Visually evident" means that we can either (1) see it and be able to time it ourselves or at leas be able to compare it with speed showings of the characters existing in said OP as per rules (2) be showcased via a visual tool/style/technique that demonstrates how fast they are moving (such as slowing down the environment, blur lines, etc.).

The rules of the thread has been stated. It is on the posters who wish to debate within the thread to post evidence proving their assertions. If it is absent, don't whine, just show the ones you can.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Then flash would not be considered a speedster cause Arrow and others tagged him. However he is..

Actually, the REVERSE IS TRUE. And this proves my point exactly and shows the undependability of things like powerscaling.

Flash is a speedster. Arrow is not.

Arrow tagging Flash does not make Arrow a speedster (inferential evidence). But if Arrow gets "feats" that makes him a speedster (like running and reacting at superspeed aka. direct evidence), then he is.

StealthRanger

Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion

That's... not how it works at all

Unless it's something like Yusuke vs Sensui where they're crossing massive distances during their fight (which happens the be the quantifiable speed feat, which it is), then yeah, it'll be rare you'll find a situation like this. Hell, in said series in the next arc Yusuke vs Yomi doesn't have them crossing massive distances or statements of them punching thousands of times every second, but none of us would really assume that they're much slower than Sensui despite massive power boosts

Or to take this logic in Warhammer. Some Ultramarine Sargeant Schmuck hit a Word Bearer in the span of a microsecond (there are several feats of striking in a microsecond too but eh), this would put his reaction/attack speed at Mach 4000 or so (assuming his strike moved a meter and a half). Several fights involving upper tier Daemons or Primarchs don't mention strikes happening in microseconds, but none of us would be stupid and assume that high tiers are much slower than UM schmucks in attacks speed and reactions

Or in DBZ, as I said before, Gotenks flew around the earth several times in a few seconds, but his fight with Buu where Buu beat him on the first encounter, they didn't even zip between cities, but there's no reason to believe they're going much slower

List goes on in fiction

In other words just unquantifiable garbage (as I said, they're nothing more than speed tropes), which means nothing until you find a quantifiable speed feat, which puts how impressive said thing is into perspective

StealthRanger

Though if you want to play that way, fine, a vast majority of fictional fights are unquantifiable and since quantifiable speed feats can't be applied to character fights then there's no point in this

Nibedicus

Wow.

Still going in circles.

Still insisting on the thread starter to change his rules to what he wants.

Ignoring and disregarding thread starter's clarification of his rules.

Still bringing in characters not in thread. Characters not even allowed in this forum....

Won't leave thread.

............

Yeahhhh, I'm just going to go wait on a mod if you don't mind...

StealthRanger

No, rule is you're not allowed to use them in threads here, if there's a rule where they're not allowed to be referenced, by all means point it out

Well hey if you make rules based on bullshit (combat speed fallacy, characters having to perform the exact same speed they were in their quantifiable feats otherwise they weren't going that exact same speed and saying speed tropes like blurs and speed lines are actual quantifiers of speed rather than just tropes) that was laughed out of every vs debating board since forever since 2006, don't complain when someone criticizes you for doing this kind of shit

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Actually, the REVERSE IS TRUE. And this proves my point exactly and shows the undependability of things like powerscaling.

Flash is a speedster. Arrow is not.

Arrow tagging Flash does not make Arrow a speedster (inferential evidence). But if Arrow gets "feats" that makes him a speedster (like running and reacting at superspeed aka. direct evidence), then he is.

I was being facetious. Just because MoS does is not represented in the exact same fashion as say Flash or QS, does not mean he isn't.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Not exactly. Slower fighters tag faster fighters all the time. Especially at short or grapple range. Heck, the other kryptonian (Nam-Ek was it?) who was moving pretty slow was tagging supes all the time. Visually evident means that it must be shown VISUALLY to be moving fast.

Just to point out that Nam-Ek who, despite being slowed down enough (like the others) for us to follow properly, caused multiple sonic booms during the Smallville encounter. So unless the laws of physics operate differently in the MoS universe than it does in RL, he can move at supersonic speeds on the ground, despite being portrayed as moving at speeds we can follow. IMO, that's why they go out of their way to show how much faster Kryptonians are than humans, with the Faora scene. To give us some perspective despite keeping the action between the Kryptonians slow enough for us to follow.

Also, people trying to act like Faora was handling Clark like she was handling regular humans need to rewatch the film. She was completely and utterly beyond their ability to react to once she was in action. She was faster than Clark, but still operating within the same overall speed class. And she handled him because, y'know, he had never been in a fight before, and she is a trained soldier. Also, he learned quickly, because by the end of the encounter he was doing an ok job of handling both her and Nam-Ek at once, and reacting to both.

StealthRanger

I'd also bring up that Namek intercepted Superman while he was in motion

Though to be fair, fiction doesn't adhere to real life physics 100%

Not that it makes much of a difference

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I was being facetious. Just because MoS does is not represented in the exact same fashion as say Flash or QS, does not mean he isn't.

I love it how people assume that even in this day and age that if a character doesn't leave blurs, speed lines or afterimages while performing thousands of super crazy speed tricks in one panel like they're the ****ing Flash in every single situation they appear in that they can just ignore any and all feats and powerscaling all day erry day

BeyonderGod

-Quicksilver (X-Men: Days of Future past)=4th
-Obi Wan (Star Wars franchise)=8th
-Superman (MoS)=2nd
-Metro Man (Megamind)=1st
-Agents (the Matrix)=6th
-The Beast (Kung-Fu hustle)=3rd
-Russel Edgington (True Blood)=7th
-G-Girl (My Super Ex Gf)=5th

How I ranked them.

ares834

Nibedicus

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Just to point out that Nam-Ek who, despite being slowed down enough (like the others) for us to follow properly, caused multiple sonic booms during the Smallville encounter. So unless the laws of physics operate differently in the MoS universe than it does in RL, he can move at supersonic speeds on the ground, despite being portrayed as moving at speeds we can follow. IMO, that's why they go out of their way to show how much faster Kryptonians are than humans, with the Faora scene. To give us some perspective despite keeping the action between the Kryptonians slow enough for us to follow.

Also, people trying to act like Faora was handling Clark like she was handling regular humans need to rewatch the film. She was completely and utterly beyond their ability to react to once she was in action. She was faster than Clark, but still operating within the same overall speed class. And she handled him because, y'know, he had never been in a fight before, and she is a trained soldier. Also, he learned quickly, because by the end of the encounter he was doing an ok job of handling both her and Nam-Ek at once, and reacting to both.

Nobody is disputing that MoS characters can travel very fast. And I am not disputing (in this thread anyway) that they may have some sort of superspeed. Why do you think I included them in the thread in the first place?? Cuz they probably have some form of superspeed. As long as the "feats" are posted, they are more than admissible in this case.

What I have issues with is that some ppl are using the "hypersonic flight" scene to state that Superman has near light speed combat speed. Which in of itself flawed because they are basing it on travel speed and not actual combat-speed that is shown throughout the movie. This is flawed reasoning and the fact that I specifically excluded this kind of flawed debating logic in my thread only to have stealth continuously come here and insist we do things his way in a thread he didn't make, kinda makes me wanna lose faith in humanity....

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I was being facetious. Just because MoS does is not represented in the exact same fashion as say Flash or QS, does not mean he isn't.

Not saying that he is or isn't.

Burden of proof is on the person making the assertion, tho.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
No, rule is you're not allowed to use them in threads here, if there's a rule where they're not allowed to be referenced, by all means point it out

Well hey if you make rules based on bullshit (combat speed fallacy, characters having to perform the exact same speed they were in their quantifiable feats otherwise they weren't going that exact same speed and saying speed tropes like blurs and speed lines are actual quantifiers of speed rather than just tropes)

So the big "MOVIE FEATS ONLY!" in the golden rule allows us to reference anime "feats" here now? Didn't know that. Guess we learn things everyday. roll eyes (sarcastic)

"Combat speed fallacy" is a fallacy written by a an angry battleboard poster and is not really a real fallacy as logical fallacies go. Glad that you use made-up fallacies in wikis by angry teenagers as your logical standard tho. thumb up

And speaking of logical fallacies...

Originally posted by StealthRanger
that was laughed out of every vs debating board since forever since 2006, don't complain when someone criticizes you for doing this kind of shit

Argumentum ad populum.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

And it's even written in a wiki for your convenience. We know how you just looveeee those... roll eyes (sarcastic)

StealthRanger

Referencing feats from different series to prove a point is a different thing than using say, EU feats for a Star Wars character (of E-616 feats for a Marvel character) in a Darth Vader vs Spiderman thread in the movie vs

Nice try, though

I should note that was written by someone fairly well known and respected here (I believe, wikis shifted location a few times so **** if I knew who originally wrote it). But yeah, dismissing shit because you don't like it isn't a valid tactic

Speaking of which, thought you were just going to sit in the corner and wait for a mod ruling, by all means do so

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Referencing feats from different series to prove a point is a different thing than using say, EU feats for a Star Wars character (of E-616 feats for a Marvel character) in a Darth Vader vs Spiderman thread in the movie vs

Nice try, though

I should note that was written by someone fairly well known and respected here (I believe, wikis shifted location a few times so **** if I knew who originally wrote it). But yeah, dismissing shit because you don't like it isn't a valid tactic

Speaking of which, thought you were just going to sit in the corner and wait for a mod ruling, by all means do so

Lol. If you say so. I guess our intepretation of the golden rule is different. When bold letters say "MOVIE FEATS ONLY", I guess in 2006 battleboard speak, thre is some fine print ppl aren't told about. But if that floats your boat, by all means.

"Poster was popular and well respected, thus his post must be correct!!"

Uses made up fallacy to try and prove you wrong. Uses real logical fallacies.

There is a meme here somewhere...l

You understand this is my thread right? And you're the one here who can just leave if he doesn't like the OP?

StealthRanger

I assume this was you trying to be witty, rite? But if you're admitting you can't keep up then I wholeheartedly apologize

But if I made a Dracula (Dracula Untold) vs Sebastian Shaw thread and somebody told me that Shaw can't win because Dracula can just regenerate from anything. I tell him this is a no limit fallacy and he's never regenerated from anything that Shaw can put out (not sure if this is the case but bear with me). He tells me it still doesn't matter. I ask "Could Drac regenerate from say, Goku's Kamehameha or Lina Inverse's Giga Slave" to enforce the NLF point. That's not a violation

If I used feats for Sebastian Shaw from Earth 616 on the other hand? Now that would be a violation

Just noting it in the face of "raging teenager" dismissal of yours, then again, dismissal seems to be par for the course here given shit like the Final Fantasy and comic vs animu threads here

Like I said, going by your methodology pretty much a vast majority of fiction is quantifiable because we can't apply quantifiable speed feats to everywhere else unless they perform those exact same feats in said other instances (though as I said, something of this sort happening is an extreme rare occurrence in fiction). If that's how you want to play, by all means, though that makes quantification pointless

Though if you want to work off that, be it far from me to stop you m8

StealthRanger

But whatever, am willing to agree to disagree if you will

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
I assume this was you trying to be witty, rite? But if you're admitting you can't keep up then I wholeheartedly apologize

But if I made a Dracula (Dracula Untold) vs Sebastian Shaw thread and somebody told me that Shaw can't win because Dracula can just regenerate from anything. I tell him this is a no limit fallacy and he's never regenerated from anything that Shaw can put out (not sure if this is the case but bear with me). He tells me it still doesn't matter. I ask "Could Drac regenerate from say, Goku's Kamehameha or Lina Inverse's Giga Slave" to enforce the NLF point. That's not a violation

If I used feats for Sebastian Shaw from Earth 616 on the other hand? Now that would be a violation

Just noting it in the face of "raging teenager" dismissal of yours, then again, dismissal seems to be par for the course here given shit like the Final Fantasy and comic vs animu threads here

Like I said, going by your methodology pretty much a vast majority of fiction is quantifiable because we can't apply quantifiable speed feats to everywhere else unless they perform those exact same feats in said other instances (though as I said, something of this sort happening is an extreme rare occurrence in fiction). If that's how you want to play, by all means, though that makes quantification pointless

Though if you want to work off that, be it far from me to stop you m8

Call me pedantic, but I follow rules to the letter here.

Have you read that freakin wiki? It sounds like it was written by an angry teenager. Even the logical framework was completely flawed and the methodology to try and prove his case barely goes anywhere. It's a mess of an argument and it is a sad day if ppl actually respected him. Although he might have been popular the way ppl who flame a lot could be popular, but that's it.

And you'd be right. And you'd actually be starting to get the point of this thread. Going by my methodology, plenty of characters would have their "feats" disqualified. That is why I made pains to include ONLY characters that DO have "feats" that qualify within the limited scope I presented. This isn't an end all and be all ranking of characters which includes all their "feats" and using all logical approaches and methodologies. This is a quick and easy debate using the easiest and most indisputable "feats". I figured without the need to prove every "feat" out there for admissibility, I can include several of my favorite characters and have a fun and easy debate....

But now, thanks to your butthurt, you've probably derailed this thread so badly that we've lost any and all posters who once had an interest in posting here. Well, thanks for that... SMFH.

StealthRanger

Yeah, several times

Right, that doesn't sound subjective or anything there

"I don't like it so I'll just dismiss it with a pseudo sense of elitism"

Only real debate was over Silent Master doing his age old "Superman r only peak human in combat" shite he seems to be unwilling to drop even after going back and forth on god knows how many threads

Oh stop playing the victim

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Yeah, several times

Right, that doesn't sound subjective or anything there

"I don't like it so I'll just dismiss it with a pseudo sense of elitism"

Only real debate was over Silent Master doing his age old "Superman r only peak human in combat" shite he seems to be unwilling to drop even after going back and forth on god knows how many threads

Oh stop playing the victim

Well, I feel bad for you if you think ppl would read that rant abd think that it has any credibility in it.

It actually is objectively similar to how a teenager writes. As anyone having beyond a high school education would know that in academic writing, gems like "wanker" and "tards" does not inspire confidence in your work. Instead it makes the writer seem juvenile.

No, I dismiss it because it is a mess, is poorly written and failed to prove his point.

Then prove him wrong in those threads instead if stinking up mine with your butthurt.

Grow up. Thanks for skipping the whole point of the thread I made even when I've paintef a clear and defined picture of it, tho. I don't even know why you're still here.

StealthRanger

Oh come now, don't give me that pseudo elitist shit

>pseudo intellectualism

Oh man, this is almost as gold as Pencil would flame you over how his "physics degree" made him the superior debater over in the OBD several years ago in 2009

Style over substance fallacy

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Oh come now, don't give me that pseudo elitist shit

>pseudo intellectualism

Oh man, this is almost as gold as Pencil would flame you over how his "physics degree" made him the superior debater over in the OBD several years ago in 2009

L
Style over substance fallacy

I'm beginning to think you wrote that garbage and you're taking offense because I insulted your baby. laughing

insultingly name dropping irrelevant ppl as if it somehow helps your argument is actually his MO and why his rant was so poorly written.

Lol @ crying "pseudo intellectualism". You don't have to be an intellectual to know his rant went nowhere.

Except the whole reason why I questioned his use of words was to point out that it sounded like a teenager wrote it exactly because of his poor choice of words. And I'd be right. I never mentioned it to dispute the validity of his point, however.

The writer failed to prove his point. He had no "substance". And due to his poor "style", I refuse to take him at his word.

Wrong use of fallacy fail. laughing

nice try tho.

StealthRanger

Yeah, that was written in like, 2006 or something, well before I became involved in vs debating, but whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose

Style over substance had two different meanings. One of them being dismissive of an argument because of the choice of wording

Besides, it's not like the OBD like many other vs wikis are maintained by their communities who do it as a recreational hobby

That's pretty much what a style over substance argument is

Or, you know, notifying people who utlised this kind of double standards, ala Phenom and his Bridage downplaying comic characters with the "combat speed" argument (ir. Superman flying between solar systems instantly and demanding proof that he could use that in combat) while saying quantifiable speed feats could be applied to character fights in animu (Gotenks flew around the earth several times in seconds and Buu beat him, Gohan beat Buu and so on, so they'd be relativistic, and when proof would be demanded that they're going that fast in combat they'd just say "oh but they leave afterimages and speed lines so we just know they are mmmkay!" and not bothering to quantify it beyond that)

Plus, really, it is used by them the most out of any faction on the webs, if you look at any MovieCodec thread with DBZ/animu vs comics

Can a character move at a certain speed? Can he percieve something moving at that speed? Can he react at that speed? If yes, then that'd constitute as combat speed (unless they'd see their punches move in slow motion to their own perceptions, which is silly)

StealthRanger

Also

>vs debates and their wikis
>academic writing

Pencil tier debating

:skully

Nibedicus

Originally posted by StealthRanger

1) Yeah, that was written in like, 2006 or something, well before I became involved in vs debating, but whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose

2) Style over substance had two different meanings. One of them being dismissive of an argument because of the choice of wording

3) Besides, it's not like the OBD like many other vs wikis are maintained by their communities who do it as a recreational hobby

4) That's pretty much what a style over substance argument is

5) Or, you know, notifying people who utlised this kind of double standards, ala Phenom and his Bridage downplaying comic characters with the "combat speed" argument (ir. Superman flying between solar systems instantly and demanding proof that he could use that in combat) while saying quantifiable speed feats could be applied to character fights in animu (Gotenks flew around the earth several times in seconds and Buu beat him, Gohan beat Buu and so on, so they'd be relativistic, and when proof would be demanded that they're going that fast in combat they'd just say "oh but they leave afterimages and speed lines so we just know they are mmmkay!" and not bothering to quantify it beyond that)

6) Plus, really, it is used by them the most out of any faction on the webs, if you look at any MovieCodec thread with DBZ/animu vs comics

7) Can a character move at a certain speed? Can he percieve something moving at that speed? Can he react at that speed? If yes, then that'd constitute as combat speed (unless they'd see their punches move in slow motion to their own perceptions, which is silly)

1) I was obviously ribbing. Sorry you can't tell jokes from direct accusation in the interwebz, I guess. laughing out loud

2) And this is the exact definition I used. Reread.

3) Irrelevant. You tried to present this rant like it was an actual fallacy. It's sad that you don't see the absolute fail in this.

4) My issue was with the effect of the method of writing on the credibility of the wiki post. And as his presentation of facts was inconclusive, I am neither convinced nor inclined go believe it. If you cannot distinguish between validity and credibility, I cannot help you.

5) The existence of double standard debating does not make you logic (or for that matter, the wiki writer's) correct and bringing it up is just fluff in an otherwise flawed logic.

6) Appeal to majority. Appeal to belief. Jee-suz. You really need to stop doing this... I mean, you know this is wrong, right? Just because everyone does it, doesn't mean it is the right method.

7) A person travelling fast and reacting while travelling fast and can see things while travelling fast DOES NOT DIRECTLY translate to the person reacting/percieving at the speed he is travelling in aka. Mach travel speed does immediately not translate to mach speed reaction time.

This example fits all your criteria:

A pilot in a supersonic jet dogfighting another pilot in a supersonic jet does not have supersonic reaction time. But is he traveling at supersonic speed? Yes. Is he percieving something moving at supersonic speed? Yes. Is he reacting to the enemy plane moving at supersonic speed? Yes.

Yet here he is, not a supersonic human.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Nobody is disputing that MoS characters can travel very fast. And I am not disputing (in this thread anyway) that they may have some sort of superspeed. Why do you think I included them in the thread in the first place?? Cuz they probably have some form of superspeed. As long as the "feats" are posted, they are more than admissible in this case.

Hey man, was just pointing out that even though he might appear slower than Faora, he is by no means slow. Fact is that he does create a sonic boom right before he jumps at the one plane, and during combat against Clark. He also dashes quickly and intercepts, grabs and slams Clark while Clark is in mid flight (which we all agree is super fast). So there is also an example of him reacting to a superhumanly fast object while fighting. Clark himself creates one or two shockwaves while the two of them duke it out as well.

We also see Faora display clear superhuman speed in combat against the humans. Don't know where people are getting the idea from that she dashed and then stops and throws a punch at human speeds. Only times she stops is very brief pauses before moving between some of her opponents. She delivers her blows at speed, while doing the blitz thing. It's just really hard to pick up because she one-shots all of them, so it's not like we see opponents each taking a flurry of superfast blows before she moves on. Pretty sure there are other visual cues in both the Smallville and final fight that shows enhanced speed. Would need to crack out my MoS DVD to check.

From a sheer rational level, it also doesn't make sense that the two Kryptonians with the least developed powers would display abilities neither Clark (who has had decades to learn about his abilites) and Zod (who was the only one other than Clark to master flight and heat vision) had, and then choose to use them against humans but not against an equal opponent.

That being said, while they do have enhanced combat speed, I have no idea how to give an accurate estimation, so still have no idea where they fall on this list. laughing

Originally posted by Nibedicus
A pilot in a supersonic jet dogfighting another pilot in a supersonic jet does not have supersonic reaction time. But is he traveling at supersonic speed? Yes. Is he percieving something moving at supersonic speed? Yes. Is he reacting to the enemy plane moving at supersonic speed? Yes.

Yet here he is, not a supersonic human.

The flaw with this example is that it doesn't consider the effect inertial frames play on perception of movement.

If two pilots are both moving at supersonic speeds, if their speed and acceleration is very similar relative to each other, they won't appear to be moving at supersonic speeds from each others point of view.

Take this example:
You and someone else are in the same model car, on an open stretch of road. You both take off at the exact same time and accelerate at the exact same speed. Now, if you used only the other car as reference as to how fast you both were moving, it would look like you are both standing still from your perspective. That's because you are both in the same inertial frame. So with your human perceptions, something rapidly accelerating appears to not be moving at all. And that has to do with your own acceleration in relation to the other object.

Now, look at this for example, from about 50 seconds into the clip:
OMKsuA4Bi-c

He is ducking and dodging between buildings during mid flight, while accelerating. Now, because those buildings are not moving with him and are in fact static, from his perspective they would be accelerating at him at the speed he is. So him, for example, ducking and dodging between buildings, is not the same situation as two fighter pilots dueling it out.

That being said, simply throwing punches at each other while moving at the same super fast speed is NOT a definitive way to prove someone has superhuman speed, for the same reason the jet fighter example doesn't work. For example, two guys fighting on top of a fast moving train are both in the same inertial frame, so while they might both be rapidly moving while they are busy fighting, as long as they are moving at the same speed and acceleration relative to each other, the speed the train is moving will have zero effect on how fast their punches or overall fight is going. It would obviously affect things like balance, but that is not the point here. Point is you would have two people fighting while moving extremely fast, yet fighting at regular human speed.

F*** it. Basically, I just rambled a lot and didn't answer the OP question at all, in terms of ranking the speedsters.
laughing

TheGrat1

To be clear: I am only talking about hand speed.

Metro Man
Quicksilver
Agents (Smith super speed punches + casual bullet dodging)
Kal-El = The Beast
Obi Wan

Never seen True Blood and don't really remember G-Girl.

Originally posted by KingD19
This thread is about combat speed, correct? So in this context, losing to Faora is a low showing as his speed is severely lacking. Even though that wasn't the point I was making, although you think it was. In that aspect Superman is pretty low on this list, because while he can fly fast as hell, he doesn't seem to be able to fight or react at those speeds.

If he did, he'd have schooled Faora as he was stronger. He wouldn't have been plodding around fighting Nam-Ek, and he and Zod's fight would have been a lot more fast paced.

Rm_06apWsRg

@ 0:02 Kal attempts (appropriately enough) a left-handed "Superman punch". He covers roughly 20 feet from a sitting position in about 1 1/2 seconds, running the entire way. His speed is not lacking at all, he just never got a clear chance to demonstrate his foot speed like Faora did.

See also: Faora's jog at 1:22. Kal is capable of virtually anything she is.

7pnlP-VHvps

@ around 0:20 Kal starts making hairpin turns at 400+ mph and is able to stop on a dime shortly after. That is combat speed.

Kal is way above Obi Wan or any other Jedi on film in terms of any speed classification you can think of.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
1) Hey man, was just pointing out that even though he might appear slower than Faora, he is by no means slow. Fact is that he does create a sonic boom right before he jumps at the one plane, and during combat against Clark. He also dashes quickly and intercepts, grabs and slams Clark while Clark is in mid flight (which we all agree is super fast). So there is also an example of him reacting to a superhumanly fast object while fighting. Clark himself creates one or two shockwaves while the two of them duke it out as well.

We also see Faora display clear superhuman speed in combat against the humans. Don't know where people are getting the idea from that she dashed and then stops and throws a punch at human speeds. Only times she stops is very brief pauses before moving between some of her opponents. She delivers her blows at speed, while doing the blitz thing. It's just really hard to pick up because she one-shots all of them, so it's not like we see opponents each taking a flurry of superfast blows before she moves on. Pretty sure there are other visual cues in both the Smallville and final fight that shows enhanced speed. Would need to crack out my MoS DVD to check.

From a sheer rational level, it also doesn't make sense that the two Kryptonians with the least developed powers would display abilities neither Clark (who has had decades to learn about his abilites) and Zod (who was the only one other than Clark to master flight and heat vision) had, and then choose to use them against humans but not against an equal opponent.

That being said, while they do have enhanced combat speed, I have no idea how to give an accurate estimation, so still have no idea where they fall on this list. laughing

2) The flaw with this example is that it doesn't consider the effect inertial frames play on perception of movement.

If two pilots are both moving at supersonic speeds, if their speed and acceleration is very similar relative to each other, they won't appear to be moving at supersonic speeds from each others point of view.

Take this example:
You and someone else are in the same model car, on an open stretch of road. You both take off at the exact same time and accelerate at the exact same speed. Now, if you used only the other car as reference as to how fast you both were moving, it would look like you are both standing still from your perspective. That's because you are both in the same inertial frame. So with your human perceptions, something rapidly accelerating appears to not be moving at all. And that has to do with your own acceleration in relation to the other object.

Now, look at this for example, from about 50 seconds into the clip:
OMKsuA4Bi-c

He is ducking and dodging between buildings during mid flight, while accelerating. Now, because those buildings are not moving with him and are in fact static, from his perspective they would be accelerating at him at the speed he is. So him, for example, ducking and dodging between buildings, is not the same situation as two fighter pilots dueling it out.

That being said, simply throwing punches at each other while moving at the same super fast speed is NOT a definitive way to prove someone has superhuman speed, for the same reason the jet fighter example doesn't work. For example, two guys fighting on top of a fast moving train are both in the same inertial frame, so while they might both be rapidly moving while they are busy fighting, as long as they are moving at the same speed and acceleration relative to each other, the speed the train is moving will have zero effect on how fast their punches or overall fight is going. It would obviously affect things like balance, but that is not the point here. Point is you would have two people fighting while moving extremely fast, yet fighting at regular human speed.

F*** it. Basically, I just rambled a lot and didn't answer the OP question at all, in terms of ranking the speedsters.
laughing

1) Let me be clear: I am not disputing the MoS speed "feats" in this thread. If you have them, post them. But if you measure his superspeed based using his his flight speed, then I will argue it. As it is, you are not doing that.

Although it does make sense as they seem to be still be discovering their powers and it could be that some personalities are more disposed towards certain attributes. Zod developed flight sooner (with less time under the sun, I mean) than Kal, for example. Even thought Kal had a longer exposure to sunlight he may still be discovering some of his powers and it could be part of how his story unfolds in the sequel. From a logical and storytelling point of view, it makes sense.

That said, I'm not saying this is what is happening here, just that this is a more than plausible explanation.

2) Except that this reply has nothing to do with MoS. This reply has to do with the poor "logic" Stealth presented and the flawed "logic" presented in the fake fallacy he posted.

His false fallacy states that if one posseses travel speed, the ability to react in that speed and the ability to percieve others at that speed exists then superspeed exists. My example meets all 3 criteria.

You must understand that "being able to percieve others in that speed" when being in supersonic speed has a lot to do with reacting within the time frame allowed outside one's inertial frame (as yes, you can still percieve things moving at supersonic speed although you have a limited time to view it until it passes your field of view given it is moving in a straight line and it is big enough to be seen from X distance) and moving yourself within said inertial frame to allow for dogfighting (or outside of it if you are the one being pursued). That still fits the criteria of "percieve X while moving at Y speed" and is one of the reasons why the false "fallacy's" logic is so flawed.

Silent Master

I'd love to see them go to the comic vs board and argue that Thor being able to react to objects/people while flying at FTL speeds means that he has FTL reactions/combat speed.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Silent Master
I'd love to see them go to the comic vs board and argue that Thor being able to react to objects/people while flying at FTL speeds means that he has FTL reactions/combat speed.

Or Surfer being able to travel 1 light year within a few seconds (Infinity
Gauntlet) trying to grab stationary gauntlets at that speed and Thanos being able to react to it in the last moment means they both have over a million times light speed...

Would be fun to watch.

Actually, yeah. I dare anyone here arguing such logic to do that. If you got the guts.

Silent Master

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Or Surfer being able to travel 1 light year within a few seconds (Infinity
Gauntlet) trying to grab stationary gauntlets at that speed and Thanos being able to react to it in the last moment means they both have over a million times light speed...

Would be fun to watch.

Actually, yeah. I dare anyone here arguing such logic to do that. If you got the guts.

I knew they were trolling from the start; I mean their argument basically boiled down to "yeah, I know that the movie doesn't show or state that they were fighting at superspeed, but they were, because I say so". and when someone disagreed with them, they went straight to posting insults.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Nibedicus

"Combat speed fallacy" is a fallacy written by a an angry battleboard poster and is not really a real fallacy as logical fallacies go. Glad that you use made-up fallacies in wikis by angry teenagers as your logical standard tho. thumb up

This is actually true.

There's no logical fallacy involved. Just stupid people unable to wrap their heads around the concept that reacting while moving hundreds of times the speed of sound requires combat speed on par with that. It's less a failure of logic and more outright denial.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Silent Master
I knew they were trolling from the start; I mean their argument basically boiled down to "yeah, I know that the movie doesn't show or state that they were fighting at superspeed, but they were, because I say so". and when someone disagreed with them, they went straight to posting insults. Why are you of all people saying this?

You've done the same thing when arguing with dadudemon.

Don't be a hypocrite. thumb up

I don't feel the need to argue with people who can't grasp the idea that catching or reacting to people moving far in excess the speed of sound have reaction-times on par.

edit: Disregard that first part, I think I might have confused you with someone else.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by NemeBro
This is actually true.

There's no logical fallacy involved. Just stupid people unable to wrap their heads around the concept that reacting while moving hundreds of times the speed of sound requires combat speed on par with that. It's less a failure of logic and more outright denial.

You know what, define what you mean by "on par" with regards to speed vs combat speed perception as I'm starting to feel that a lot of the argument here has a lot more to do with semantics than it does logic.

Silent Master

If they are both flying at x speed, then their relative speed to each other is 0mph thus it wouldn't take superspeed reflexes to react to punches being thrown. just like it doesn't take superspeed reactions for fighter pilots to react during dogfights or high-speed flight maneuverers.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Silent Master
If they are both flying at x speed, then their relative speed to each other is 0mph thus it wouldn't take superspeed reflexes to react to punches being thrown. just like it doesn't take superspeed reactions for fighter pilots to react during dogfights or high-speed flight maneuverers. No fighter pilot has ever maneuvered as well as Superman did while fighting at those speeds, nor have they ever actually reacted to the supersonic bullets or missiles fired by another plane from close range. If another plane was a couple of meters away and about to collide with their plane, they would have no way to react.

Superman would. All the Kryptonians showed that they can react to each other's flight speed. Like when Nam-ek grabbed Superman while he was in flight, for example.

If Superman couldn't react to his own speed then he would be unable to so much as perceive the world around him while in flight. He wouldn't be able to weave through buildings without destroying them, like he has shown to be capable of.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You know what, define what you mean by "on par" with regards to speed vs combat speed perception as I'm starting to feel that a lot of the argument here has a lot more to do with semantics than it does logic. If Zod is moving at mach 5,000, for example, and is rushing Superman from five meters away, if Superman is able to throw his fist forward to stop him (I'm not sure what the actual distance of that motion would be but let's say a meter), then Superman's fist was flying at mach 1,000.

FrothByte

Even if Superman had combat super speed, do people actually believe he has faster combat speed than Russel Edgington and Matrix Agents?

Nibedicus

Originally posted by NemeBro
1) No fighter pilot has ever maneuvered as well as Superman did while fighting at those speeds, nor have they ever actually reacted to the supersonic bullets or missiles fired by another plane from close range. If another plane was a couple of meters away and about to collide with their plane, they would have no way to react.

2) Superman would. All the Kryptonians showed that they can react to each other's flight speed. Like when Nam-ek grabbed Superman while he was in flight, for example.

3) If Superman couldn't react to his own speed then he would be unable to so much as perceive the world around him while in flight. He wouldn't be able to weave through buildings without destroying them, like he has shown to be capable of.

1) Better reaction time to pilots =/= supersonic reaction speed.

The fun part is that Kal actually got hit by bullets while trying to avoid them. Bullets that move at maybe Mach 4 tops IIRC. A-10 strafe scene. Not really a good indicator of supersonic reaction time is it?

2) Superman was visible in flight while covering short distances. We could actually clock approximate distance vs time in his movement and see if those were supersonic. And if you mean the short range bullrush he attempted on Faora that Nam intercepted, then it was not supersonic (as it took half a second to not even cover 10-15 feet) and Namek most probably zeroed in and intercepted him from his prone position just to catch it from mid flight. If you mean the high jump he did to catch Kal from mid flight, again, time vs distance is NOT supersonic at all. That was so slow I would put it on par with a Hulk leap from Avengers.

3) he made hairpin turns the same way high speed racers do high speed turns (tho they are limited by their G tolerance and the maneuverbility of their vehicles) and while he could do it better than racecar drivers, this is no indicator that his reaction time is supersonic. Hell, he wasn't even travelling at supersonic speeds when he was flying around the city if you do a distance vs time computaions (too lazy to do it atm). I'm willing to bet that wasn't supersonic at all. Or at least not at the level ppl are making it.

Unless of course you accept that normal humans percieve and react within the hundred+ mph speed range.

Edit. Lost a few sentences while cut/pasting. Fixed.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by NemeBro
If Zod is moving at mach 5,000, for example, and is rushing Superman from five meters away, if Superman is able to throw his fist forward to stop him (I'm not sure what the actual distance of that motion would be but let's say a meter), then Superman's fist was flying at mach 1,000.

First prove that Zod was moving at mach 5000 as the punch was being thrown. A basic distance v time computation will do.

Nibedicus

You know, the whole point of me making this thread was to not argue the MoS speed "feats" for admissibility. That is why I made the criteria so strict as to avoid having to argue all this silliness.

But thanks to one poster and his fake fallacy, this is the thread now. The hand we are dealt. Might as well embrace it.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by FrothByte
Even if Superman had combat super speed, do people actually believe he has faster combat speed than Russel Edgington and Matrix Agents?

So many people dodge bullets now, Matrix agents are not as OP as they used to be.

Silent Master

mach 5000 would be around 3,800,000 miles per hour or 1055 miles per second. do people really want us to believe that they were fighting at that speed in the city, I suppose the argument will be that the fight really only took a fraction of a second, we were just seeing it from their perspective.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
So many people dodge bullets now, Matrix agents are not as OP as they used to be.

Except Superman.

hmm

http://i.imgur.com/9PJ7hlCl.jpg

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Except Superman.

hmm

http://i.imgur.com/9PJ7hlCl.jpg

Actually he did dodge those..Namek was the one who didn't.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Actually he did dodge those..Namek was the one who didn't.

You mean except for the fact that he got hit, right? Cuz I'm sure that's what you must mean.

http://i.imgur.com/GS8ljf7.png

Or are you simply saying that he performed the act of dodging (only to fail)?

Silent Master

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You mean except for the fact that he got hit, right? Cuz I'm sure that's what you must mean.

http://i.imgur.com/GS8ljf7.png

Or are you simply saying that he performed the act of dodging (only to fail)?

Isn't it interesting how those bullets are moving faster than Superman? they must be moving at mach 5,001.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Silent Master
Isn't it interesting how those bullets are moving faster than Superman? they must be moving at mach 5,001.

That must be why ppl are so afraid of A-10's! Mach 5001 bullets FTW!

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You mean except for the fact that he got hit, right? Cuz I'm sure that's what you must mean.

http://i.imgur.com/GS8ljf7.png

Or are you simply saying that he performed the act of dodging (only to fail)?

Is there a reason to be nasty about it?

It looks like he might have gotten glazed by one if you look real hard, but its hard to tell either way.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Is there a reason to be nasty about it?

It looks like he might have gotten glazed by one if you look real hard, but its hard to tell either way.

Sorry, didn't mean to be nasty. Was just playing around. Peace, bro!

Edit. And I admit it is hard to tell in the video clip. But if you look hard enough, it becomes clear he got scored a direct hit. And I think you mean "grazed". Not trying to be pedantic!! Pls don't kill me.

Silent Master

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That must be why ppl are so afraid of A-10's! Mach 5001 bullets FTW!

BTW, don't you also find it interesting that a movie that went to great lengths to showcase the damage a fight between superpowered people would cause seemingly ignored the damage that moving around a city at 3.8 million mph would cause?

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Silent Master
BTW, don't you also find it interesting that a movie that went to great lengths to showcase the damage a fight between superpowered people would cause seemingly ignored the damage that moving around a city at 3.8 million mph would cause?

And while they were burning up in re-entry, they seem to be suffering no heat from air friction while travelling at Mach 5000 leaving the earth's atmosphere...

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Sorry, didn't mean to be nasty. Was just playing around. Peace, bro!

Edit. And I admit it is hard to tell in the video clip. But if you look hard enough, it becomes clear he got scored a direct hit. And I think you mean "grazed". Not trying to be pedantic!! Pls don't kill me.

No worries, anyways back to the matrix comparison, even those agents got hit with that minigun Neo used from the chopper. Kinda hard to dodge all those bullets from guns like those. Him getting grazed by one vs being pummeled is big difference.

Silent Master

Originally posted by Nibedicus
And while they were burning up in re-entry, they seem to be suffering no heat from air friction while travelling at Mach 5000 leaving the earth's atmosphere...

I guess Lois has superhuman durability, seeing as she tanked being grabbed and carried at mach 5,000.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
No worries, anyways back to the matrix comparison, even those agents got hit with that minigun Neo used from the chopper. Kinda hard to dodge all those bullets from guns like those. Him getting grazed by one vs being pummeled is big difference.

Direct hit, not grazed. :-p projectile didn't deflect, it scored a flat rear torso hit.

And I agree. Never saw Agents as actual bullet timers on average.

The way the matrix works (IMO) is that they have to "cheat" the system for a short time to perform certain "feats" beyond their average displays of ability. That is why they are inconsistent, that is also why he could dodge multiple bullets fired at close range but failed to dodge a gun aimed at his head seconds later. This explains Neo's short bullet time moment soon after. Neo replicated the ability.

That is IMO anyway.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Silent Master
I guess Lois has superhuman durability, seeing as she tanked being grabbed and carried at mach 5,000.

She does remember? She took on a Kryptonian with full powers, survived re entry into earth atmosphere and survived the black hole. rolling on floor laughing

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Direct hit, not grazed. :-p projectile didn't deflect, it scored a flat rear torso hit.

And I agree. Never saw Agents as actual bullet timers on average.

The way the matrix works (IMO) is that they have to "cheat" the system for a short time to perform certain "feats" beyond their average displays of ability. That is why they are inconsistent, that is also why he could dodge multiple bullets fired at close range but failed to dodge a gun aimed at his head seconds later. This explains Neo's short bullet time moment soon after. Neo replicated the ability.

That is IMO anyway.

So then we really can't compare the two feats with miniguns involved with MoS and the Agents because the agents were considered bullet timers but they had their limits and got hit with a mini gun. And comparing a hand gun dodging feat between the agents and MoS would not be a good comparison because its a slower cyclic rate, slower bullet and less rounds down range. But we could say that without a doubt MoS dodged all of them but one, and the agents failed to dodge any. Agreeable?

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
So then we really can't compare the two feats with miniguns involved with MoS and the Agents because the agents were considered bullet timers but they had their limits and got hit with a mini gun. And comparing a hand gun dodging feat between the agents and MoS would not be a good comparison because its a slower cyclic rate, slower bullet and less rounds down range. But we could say that without a doubt MoS dodged all of them but one, and the agents failed to dodge any. Agreeable?

I didn't compare them. I was just being snippy.

uhuh

Edit. And he technically didn't dodge the bullets per se. At least not the way the agent dodged the gunfire on that rooftop scene. He tried to get out of the way and still ended up getting hit. He had a good second or two to get out of the way, too. stick out tongue

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Let me be clear: I am not disputing the MoS speed "feats" in this thread. If you have them, post them. But if you measure his superspeed based using his his flight speed, then I will argue it. As it is, you are not doing that.

Although it does make sense as they seem to be still be discovering their powers and it could be that some personalities are more disposed towards certain attributes. Zod developed flight sooner (with less time under the sun, I mean) than Kal, for example. Even thought Kal had a longer exposure to sunlight he may still be discovering some of his powers and it could be part of how his story unfolds in the sequel. From a logical and storytelling point of view, it makes sense.

That said, I'm not saying this is what is happening here, just that this is a more than plausible explanation.

2) Except that this reply has nothing to do with MoS. This reply has to do with the poor "logic" Stealth presented and the flawed "logic" presented in the fake fallacy he posted.

His false fallacy states that if one posseses travel speed, the ability to react in that speed and the ability to percieve others at that speed exists then superspeed exists. My example meets all 3 criteria.

You must understand that "being able to percieve others in that speed" when being in supersonic speed has a lot to do with reacting within the time frame allowed outside one's inertial frame (as yes, you can still percieve things moving at supersonic speed although you have a limited time to view it until it passes your field of view given it is moving in a straight line and it is big enough to be seen from X distance) and moving yourself within said inertial frame to allow for dogfighting (or outside of it if you are the one being pursued). That still fits the criteria of "percieve X while moving at Y speed" and is one of the reasons why the false "fallacy's" logic is so flawed.

Hey man, never said I disagreed with you. In fact, some of my post directly supports some of your flight argument against the flying while fighting thing. Was just clearing up my previous post (might have come across like I was coming at you, but was just commenting generally on MoS), and was also why I posted a clip of Supes zipping between buildings, because it actually provides a visible example of him rapidly reacting at high speeds, instead of just him fighting.