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1 - same speed

2 - speed unequal

The movie isn't even out until May 1st.

Superman, Thors been nerfed the entire MCU

Only in America.

Originally posted by relentless1
Superman, Thors been nerfed the entire MCU

spoiler:







Thor destroys a city in Age of Ultron, so Thor is leginite, city buster.

Another retard, who cant use spoilers.

So many ****ing people wanting to spoil the movie for others

Originally posted by danielgamer
spoiler:







Thor destroys a city in Age of Ultron, so Thor is leginite, city buster.

That's not what happens. Saying so is akin to saying that it was Luke's missile that blew up the death star so it must've been a hugely powerful missile. False logic Thor and Ironman use the energy of the antigravity engine itself to destroy the chunk of land

USE SPOILERS, PEOPLE!!!

Originally posted by jaden101
That's not what happens. Saying so is akin to saying that it was Luke's missile that blew up the death star so it must've been a hugely powerful missile. False logic Thor and Ironman use the energy of the antigravity engine itself to destroy the chunk of land



spoiler alert:






Yes, he had help from Iron Man, but that gave the discharge of energy was Thor himself. The electrical energy produced by Thor was in enough quantity to destroy the engine, and by the logic the city itself.

Originally posted by danielgamer
Yes, he had help from Iron Man, but that gave the discharge of energy was Thor himself. The electrical energy produced Thor was in a quantity enough to destroy the engine, and by the logic the city itself.

What part of "spoilers" do you not understand, danielgamer?

Originally posted by Impediment
USE SPOILERS, PEOPLE!!!

http://i.imgur.com/FW0o97Wl.jpg

Originally posted by Impediment
What part of "spoilers" do you not understand, danielgamer?

I don`t know how to use the Spoilers.

Originally posted by danielgamer
I don`t know how to use the Spoilers.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/misc.php?action=showbbcode

Here is a list of VB code. Please read the section of "Spoilers". Thank you.

insert type here

All you have to do is remove the asterisk/* from what I typed.

BAN THE FCKING SPOILER!

Originally posted by danielgamer
spoiler alert:






Yes, he had help from Iron Man, but that gave the discharge of energy was Thor himself. The electrical energy produced by Thor was in enough quantity to destroy the engine, and by the logic the city itself.

But it's not his power that does it. Its the energy from the engine that contributes the vast majority of the energy that destroys the 'city'. The two of the simply cause it to malfunction and blow up

Originally posted by jaden101
But it's not his power that does it. Its the energy from the engine that contributes the vast majority of the energy that destroys the 'city'. The two of the simply cause it to malfunction and blow up

as per the movie, Tony mentioned that the engine was merely keeping the piece of land from crumbling under its own weight. The explosion at the end was Thor's.

Okay, since I'm pretty sure everyone here has been spoiled by these r-tards anyway, I'll just put it out there.

Destroying a city buster =/= City buster.

There are such things as glass cannons.

Since Superman in MOS destroyed the world engine, that doesn't make him a planet buster, does it?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
There are such things as glass cannons.

Never heard that one before.

awermm

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
The movie isn't even out until May 1st.

It's out here awesome

Where at?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
http://i.imgur.com/FW0o97Wl.jpg

Originally posted by Impediment
Where at?

The UK I'm gonna go see it in...3 and a half hours

Originally posted by steverules_2
The UK I'm gonna go see it in...3 and a half hours

Here's the story in a nutshell:

The Avengers will return!

Thor is going to win ! and i'm not gonna say why , yet !

Originally posted by Impediment
Never heard that one before.

awermm

It's basically a term used, when you say that something can dish out a ton of power, but not take much. A perfect example of this, would be a nuclear bomb. A nuke is made of metal, so not much force is required to destroy it completely, but if it explodes, it can release dozens, if not hundreds of Megatons worth of force.

Basically, I'm saying that this isn't Highlander. Destroying someone/thing doesn't give you that persons/things abilities.

Another example is someone like the Flash. He is capable of dishing out super high density punches to people like Superboy Prime, and actually hurting him with them. But if Superboy landed ONE punch, it could go through EVERY Flash there is at the same time. Just because the Flash's can dish out a lot of damage, because of the nature of their powers, but can't take much in return.

Hope this clears things up.

And if you were being sarcastic, or joking, then I hate you.

Age of Ultron just reinforces that Thor is at least as durable and hits noticeably harder with charged Mjolnir shots if we want to use collateral damage as a basis.

yeah, saw ultron and superman still stomps based on speed alone

Thor didn't destroy the city alone, it was a shared feat with Iron man and the engine.

Superman wins.

I think Superman wins here.

Superman still wins.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
as per the movie, Tony mentioned that the engine was merely keeping the piece of land from crumbling under its own weight. The explosion at the end was Thor's.
No, it wasn't Thor. I suggest you see it again.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Age of Ultron just reinforces that Thor is at least as durable and hits noticeably harder with charged Mjolnir shots if we want to use collateral damage as a basis.
Tell that to Ultron.

Just saw the movie. That was definitely all Thor.

He hit the core and it created a massive shockwave. Similar to what happens when he hits Cap's shield.

Still Superman wins. Thor doesn't have nearly enough time to charge an attack like that here.

**SPOILER**






















Thor got punked by Ultron, who was basically stalemated by Cap so Thor is still way below Superman

LOL at the butt-hurt from the DC fanboy crew.

Originally posted by relentless1
**SPOILER**






















Thor got punked by Ultron, who was basically stalemated by Cap so Thor is still way below Superman

Different Ultron body.

Originally posted by Silent Master
LOL at the butt-hurt from the DC fanboy crew.

***SPOILER***

























different durability? sure, id wager the same strength/mindset/fighting skill however and Thor was getting choked out like a child, he was doing abysmally worse than Cap was and Caps just a human

It was far stronger. That was the point. Ultron even says this.

Thor was also stalling during his altercation with Ultron Prime, and was clearly unharmed afterwards. The city busting feat was sick, and goes to show how much he holds back most of the time, but MoS Superman uses his speed devastatingly well, so based on that he'd probably win.

MoS in both.

Thor wrecks him in both. All he has to do is out the hammer on Superman's chest and laugh.

With Superman's speed advantage then he'll definitely win. Won't be a stomp though. With speed equal however then it will be a very close fight. I'll give a slight majority to Thor due to the following:

Superman IMO has the advantage in strength, durability and mobility (flight). But it's not such a big advantage since Thor also has a hefty degree of strength, durability and flight.

On the other hand, Thor has a huge advantage in fighting ability. He also clearly has a lot more raw destructive powers. Superman has his heat vision, and though they're pretty strong they don't seem to have the power to level an entire city with one strike.

thor busted the machine, it wasn't him directly that destroyed that city; it was the combo of iron man overloading the machine and thor hitting it with lightning causing it to explode that wrecked that city, not thor by himself

Poor Thor.

The initial shockwave and bolt was all Thor though. And it was nowhere close to an actual city. All in all it looked like he destroyed like 20-30 mid to skyscraper sized buildings and destroying the landmass underneath it. Dwarfs everyone else though. Then surviving the actual destruction of the city.MOS can win if he fights smart but Thor's packing a nasty punch in Mjolnir, one of those to Supes domepiece and its over.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Superman still wins.

Originally posted by relentless1
thor busted the machine, it wasn't him directly that destroyed that city; it was the combo of iron man overloading the machine and thor hitting it with lightning causing it to explode that wrecked that city, not thor by himself

You got it the other way around. IM destroyed the core. Thor destroyed the upper surface of that city. He also did something similar with his jotunheim buster, and that's a more devastating shot than any single attack Superman has shown.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You got it the other way around. IM destroyed the core. Thor destroyed the upper surface of that city. He also did something similar with his jotunheim buster, and that's a more devastating shot than any single attack Superman has shown.

Pretty simple to understand Froth, his hammer has larger AOE attacks. Last time I checked if Superman went around blowing up cities, people would cry even more then they do now, but hey Thor blew up two cities already and people are happy as shit.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Pretty simple to understand Froth, his hammer has larger AOE attacks. Last time I checked if Superman went around blowing up cities, people would cry even more then they do now, but hey Thor blew up two cities already and people are happy as shit.

Err... so are you agreeing with me or not?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Err... so are you agreeing with me or not?

More or less, but people applying his charged strikes to a VS match is kinda silly, for one he's never done it to a person, there would be zero chance for him to charge that up and hit MoS with it. Also I don't agree his H2H is above Kal's, watching his fight between Zod clearly shows he knows what he is doing, adding his physical strength and speed behind it makes it FTW for me.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
More or less, but people applying his charged strikes to a VS match is kinda silly, for one he's never done it to a person, there would be zero chance for him to charge that up and hit MoS with it. Also I don't agree his H2H is above Kal's, watching his fight between Zod clearly shows he knows what he is doing, adding his physical strength and speed behind it makes it FTW for me.

With superspeed, MOS wins this. But without it, Thor can definitely find time to make charged strikes... though it won't be easy.

Zod didn't really display great h2h skills. He pretty much brawled with Kal. Only Faora showed decent h2h skills. Thor has multiple fight scenes that display his h2h skills. Besides, Kal has been in 1 fight his entire life. Thor has probably been in thousands.

Still, it's a close fight. I'm just giving Thor the slight majority.

Originally posted by FrothByte
With superspeed, MOS wins this. But without it, Thor can definitely find time to make charged strikes... though it won't be easy.

Zod didn't really display great h2h skills. He pretty much brawled with Kal. Only Faora showed decent h2h skills. Thor has multiple fight scenes that display his h2h skills. Besides, Kal has been in 1 fight his entire life. Thor has probably been in thousands.

Still, it's a close fight. I'm just giving Thor the slight majority.

Earlier when I said I wanted to debate it with you, you said there was nothing to debate cause you though MOS wins, so now you giving it to Thor, so now we must debate right?

Just to point out, but Thor has used a charged hammer strike against a person, namely Captain America. He also slightly charged the hammer against the Leviathan that he and the Hulk tag teamed.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Just to point out, but Thor has used a charged hammer strike against a person, namely Captain America. He also slightly charged the hammer against the Leviathan that he and the Hulk tag teamed.

That is a good point.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Earlier when I said I wanted to debate it with you, you said there was nothing to debate cause you though MOS wins, so now you giving it to Thor, so now we must debate right?

In my defense, I did say Superman wins... all powers accounted for. But OP says round 2 is with equalized speed, and that's what I'm debating for.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In my defense, I did say Superman wins... all powers accounted for. But OP says round 2 is with equalized speed, and that's what I'm debating for.

So does speed equalized mean Man of Steel can't fly but Thor can and he gets his hammer as well?

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
So does speed equalized mean Man of Steel can't fly but Thor can and he gets his hammer as well?

No, speed equalized I assume means no superspeed for Supes. Thor still gets his hammer and both can still fly.

Originally posted by FrothByte
No, speed equalized I assume means no superspeed for Supes. Thor still gets his hammer and both can still fly.

So Thor and MoS have to fly the exact same speed?

Pretty much yeah. I assume that's the point of the OP making their speed equal.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Pretty much yeah. I assume that's the point of the OP making their speed equal.

Ok so lets get into it.

MoS hasn't really shown limits yet, where is Thor has when he fought Kurse.

So the fight would go like when Thor fought Kurse since MOS is easily above Kurse.

What proof have you that Superman is above Kurse? We also haven't seen Kurse's limit.

Thor has been hurt before but never knocked out. We've seen Kal knocked out.

Originally posted by FrothByte
What proof have you that Superman is above Kurse? We also haven't seen Kurse's limit.

Thor has been hurt before but never knocked out. We've seen Kal knocked out.

His feats, strength, durability and power are all above Kurse..

Kurse's limit was iron and black holes. Supermans was not.

Kurse's limit was a blackhole opened right in front of him. Lois survived the same blackhole as Superman so it's not such a good feat.

Superman never had an elven sword plunged into him by anyone of asgardian level strength, so we don't know if his durability is better than Kurse.

Strength, yeah I'll give you that. Kurse however has far better fighting skills.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Kurse's limit was a blackhole opened right in front of him. Lois survived the same blackhole as Superman so it's not such a good feat.

Superman never had an elven sword plunged into him by anyone of asgardian level strength, so we don't know if his durability is better than Kurse.

Strength, yeah I'll give you that. Kurse however has far better fighting skills.

I don't think its a debate on who has greater durabilty feats then Kurse. They go handily to MoS. What was his great durabilty feats because I don't really recall any..If Loki tried to stab Kal with a sword, the damn thing would break. Even Kryptonian tech couldn't put MoS down. A sword isn't doing that either.

How is his fighting skill that much better?

Sometimes you make me question my sanity cause I really don't recall Uber durabilty feats from Kurse.

When was Kal stabbed by any kryptonian weapon?

Kurse slapping away mjolnir and beating Thor to the punch speak of his skill.

Besides, when has Kal ever taken a hit as strong as a charged mjolnir strike? How will Kal even land hits on Thor when speed is equal?

Originally posted by FrothByte
When was Kal stabbed by any kryptonian weapon?

Kurse slapping away mjolnir and beating Thor to the punch speak of his skill.

Besides, when has Kal ever taken a hit as strong as a charged mjolnir strike? How will Kal even land hits on Thor when speed is equal?

So because speed is equalized that means Kal is automatically slower and can't land hits? I don't recall Hulk or Ironman or Loki having a problem landing hits..

He took the World Engine blast..

Originally posted by ares834
Just saw the movie. That was definitely all Thor.

He hit the core and it created a massive shockwave. Similar to what happens when he hits Cap's shield.

Still Superman wins. Thor doesn't have nearly enough time to charge an attack like that here.
No, it wasn't. Tony directly says it and Friday confirms it.

Bout to go see it again. Thor did not destroy that entire landmass by himself. Abhi is correct. Thors initial strike straight up crumpled like 6 blocks filled with various buildings as well as the ground it was on. Then it kept going on to do further destruction. The complete destruction of the entire floating city was because of the bomb. And Thor pretty much tanked that shit.

Regardless, its still more power than MOS has been shown to have ever been hit with. If it was just the striking feat I would still give Supes the win 6/10, maybe 7. But that durability feat pretty much guarantees Thor can take whatever MOS dishes out long enough to bring the hammer down.

Bomb? When was there a bomb mentioned?

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Bout to go see it again. Thor did not destroy that entire landmass by himself. Abhi is correct. Thors initial strike straight up crumpled like 6 blocks filled with various buildings as well as the ground it was on. Then it kept going on to do further destruction. The complete destruction of the entire floating city was because of the bomb. And Thor pretty much tanked that shit.

Regardless, its still more power than MOS has been shown to have ever been hit with. If it was just the striking feat I would still give Supes the win 6/10, maybe 7. But that durability feat pretty much guarantees Thor can take whatever MOS dishes out long enough to bring the hammer down.

Kal tanked the World Engine weakend..as well as re entry, Krptonian weapons, his equals outnumbering him and beating on him, as well as the black hole. I think that explosion was >MoS.

Originally posted by ares834
Bomb? When was there a bomb mentioned?

Sorry, not a bomb. Overloading the reactors triggered a reaction. Thors power was used to set it off.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Kal tanked the World Engine weakend..as well as re entry, Krptonian weapons, his equals outnumbering him and beating on him, as well as the black hole. I think that explosion was >MoS.


*I don't think.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
So because speed is equalized that means Kal is automatically slower and can't land hits? I don't recall Hulk or Ironman or Loki having a problem landing hits..

He took the World Engine blast..

Speed equalized doesn't mean fighting ability is equalized. Hulk was never able to land a hit on Thor unless it was a cheapshot or if Thor was already off his feet.

IM also had trouble landing hits on Thor. IIRC, all the hits he landed were due to him using his thrusters. When they stood toe to toe he couldn't land a hit except for the headbutt.

That said, I want to make myself clear. Superman can hit Thor. Just that he'll mostly miss whereas Thor will connect with regularity.

Originally posted by ares834
Bomb? When was there a bomb mentioned?


In short the Shockwave kept doubling and that's why the city was vaporized.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Speed equalized doesn't mean fighting ability is equalized. Hulk was never able to land a hit on Thor unless it was a cheapshot or if Thor was already off his feet.

IM also had trouble landing hits on Thor. IIRC, all the hits he landed were due to him using his thrusters. When they stood toe to toe he couldn't land a hit except for the headbutt.

That said, I want to make myself clear. Superman can hit Thor. Just that he'll mostly miss whereas Thor will connect with regularity.
What are you talking about now? Faora was faster than Thor could ever hope to be and Superman had no problem tagging her.

Thor couldn't react to Tony firing his repulsor and flying away, fell flat on his face. To think Thor is going to be untouchable here is nonsense. Hulk was an out of control savage, Superman isn't.

1. How would "same speed" possibly work. Makes no sense

2. Superman, obvs

Originally posted by abhilegend
In short the Shockwave kept doubling and that's why the city was vaporized.

The shockwave generated by Thor hitting it....

Originally posted by FrothByte
Speed equalized doesn't mean fighting ability is equalized. Hulk was never able to land a hit on Thor unless it was a cheapshot or if Thor was already off his feet.

IM also had trouble landing hits on Thor. IIRC, all the hits he landed were due to him using his thrusters. When they stood toe to toe he couldn't land a hit except for the headbutt.

That said, I want to make myself clear. Superman can hit Thor. Just that he'll mostly miss whereas Thor will connect with regularity.

superman can hit thor, agreed. thor is a warrior though and Kal is a farm boy throwing punches

yes the asgardian and kryptonial are immensly powerful but it just comes down to skill and advanteges in the end

Originally posted by FrothByte
Speed equalized doesn't mean fighting ability is equalized. Hulk was never able to land a hit on Thor unless it was a cheapshot or if Thor was already off his feet.

IM also had trouble landing hits on Thor. IIRC, all the hits he landed were due to him using his thrusters. When they stood toe to toe he couldn't land a hit except for the headbutt.

That said, I want to make myself clear. Superman can hit Thor. Just that he'll mostly miss whereas Thor will connect with regularity.

Hulk pounded Thor Once and it wasn't a cheap shot, though Thor did block it.

And Iron man kicked Thor through a tree.

Who exactly did Thor dodge to make you think he would miss? He dodged hulk, but we both know there is a very big speed difference between Hulk and These two.

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Hulk pounded Thor Once and it wasn't a cheap shot, though Thor did block it.

And Iron man kicked Thor through a tree.

Who exactly did Thor dodge to make you think he would miss? He dodged hulk, but we both know there is a very big speed difference between Hulk and These two.

So has Hulk ever actually HIT Thor without it being a cheap shot or when he wasn't off his feat?

IM kicked Thor through tree and as I said, he had used his thrusters yes?

As for Superman, if you read my original response I said Superman wins if he has his superspeed. But if speed was made equal then he really wouldn't be any faster than Hulk would he?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What are you talking about now? Faora was faster than Thor could ever hope to be and Superman had no problem tagging her.

Thor couldn't react to Tony firing his repulsor and flying away, fell flat on his face. To think Thor is going to be untouchable here is nonsense. Hulk was an out of control savage, Superman isn't.

Pish. If you bothered to read the arguments between me and TI, you'd know that we were arguing only IF speed was equal. We both agree Superman wins if he has his superspeed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So has Hulk ever actually HIT Thor without it being a cheap shot or when he wasn't off his feat?

IM kicked Thor through tree and as I said, he had used his thrusters yes?

As for Superman, if you read my original response I said Superman wins if he has his superspeed. But if speed was made equal then he really wouldn't be any faster than Hulk would he?

I believe Thor was on his feet when Hulk had struck.


You said headbutt though

Thor is faster than hulk, we actually saw Superman being able to strike faster than Thor when him and Zod went H2H fighting skills.

Also Running speed/Flying speed shouldn't really = Fighting speed

Unless of course that's what the OP meant.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Speed equalized doesn't mean fighting ability is equalized. Hulk was never able to land a hit on Thor unless it was a cheapshot or if Thor was already off his feet.

IM also had trouble landing hits on Thor. IIRC, all the hits he landed were due to him using his thrusters. When they stood toe to toe he couldn't land a hit except for the headbutt.

That said, I want to make myself clear. Superman can hit Thor. Just that he'll mostly miss whereas Thor will connect with regularity.

Really though, we have seen plenty of people tag Thor, even that frost giant. When Thor lost his powers, he didn't lose any sort of speed, so when he fought that big guy at the shield base, he was able to tag him. Iron Man, with or without repulsers hit him. Loki can tag him, Ultron can, Hulk can, Mal can, point is, Thor has gotten tagged by lots less then.

If we go back to raw strength and durability MoS has that as well, so even if Thor dodges, he isn't dodging them all. Superman learns pretty fast as shown in H2H. And once he starts landing punches he will go down. Rewatch the Kurse fight and tell me I'm wrong. Kurse was a slow moving tank with no flight and he rocked him back.

Also we are equalizing speed, and MOS can still fly like you said, he will use flight ability like a machine. He will still use that to close the gaps, and toss Thor around, much like Iron Man did when he used his flight to close the gaps, but Kals will be a lot faster.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Really though, we have seen plenty of people tag Thor, even that frost giant. When Thor lost his powers, he didn't lose any sort of speed, so when he fought that big guy at the shield base, he was able to tag him. Iron Man, with or without repulsers hit him. Loki can tag him, Ultron can, Hulk can, Mal can, point is, Thor has gotten tagged by lots less then.

If we go back to raw strength and durability MoS has that as well, so even if Thor dodges, he isn't dodging them all. Superman learns pretty fast as shown in H2H. And once he starts landing punches he will go down. Rewatch the Kurse fight and tell me I'm wrong. Kurse was a slow moving tank with no flight and he rocked him back.

Also we are equalizing speed, and MOS can still fly like you said, he will use flight ability like a machine. He will still use that to close the gaps, and toss Thor around, much like Iron Man did when he used his flight to close the gaps, but Kals will be a lot faster.

The problem is, all those people who tagged Thor were all fighters of some sort. Some highly trained (like the SHIELD agents), some warrior veterans (like the frost giants) and some just have way more fight experience than Kal (like IM). In fact when you think about it, Kal will be the least experienced fighter Thor would ever have faced.

As I previously mentioned, Kal will hit Thor, he'll just have a way harder time hitting him than the other way around. And considering the amount of power Thor hits with Mjolnir then it's looking pretty bad for Superman.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The problem is, all those people who tagged Thor were all fighters of some sort. Some highly trained (like the SHIELD agents), some warrior veterans (like the frost giants) and some just have way more fight experience than Kal (like IM). In fact when you think about it, Kal will be the least experienced fighter Thor would ever have faced.

As I previously mentioned, Kal will hit Thor, he'll just have a way harder time hitting him than the other way around. And considering the amount of power Thor hits with Mjolnir then it's looking pretty bad for Superman.

Maybe before the movie, but these threads go of post movie events, in which Kal has complete control of his powers.

As far as the hammer hits, Kal could just block them like Mal did or beat the hammer away like Kurse did.

Originally posted by ares834
The shockwave generated by Thor hitting it....
It kept increasing exponentially as stated by Tony. Him hitting wouldn't be enough as per the movie.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Pish. If you bothered to read the arguments between me and TI, you'd know that we were arguing only IF speed was equal. We both agree Superman wins if he has his superspeed.
Even with equal speed, how would Thor Dodge him? Was there any mention of Hulk being as fast as Thor and Thor using his skills that I missed?

Based on Thor surfing his own city buster, how is MoS Superman even hurting him? Also lol @ Hulk not having Superspeed, did you not see him running away from Widow, and her not even closely keeping up?

Thor wins.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Based on Thor surfing his own city buster, how is MoS Superman even hurting him?

The same way Kurse did..by punching him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It kept increasing exponentially as stated by Tony. Him hitting wouldn't be enough as per the movie.

No such thing is said. He says he will cause it to keep "doubling back" which is an expression that means to return it back where it came from not actually double it.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Maybe before the movie, but these threads go of post movie events, in which Kal has complete control of his powers.

As far as the hammer hits, Kal could just block them like Mal did or beat the hammer away like Kurse did.

Yup, post movie events. In which case Kal has only been in 2 fights in his entire life. Like I said, he's still the least experienced fighter Thor has ever fought. If you completely took out all their powers, made them human and made them fight h2h, Thor would completely demolish him. It's only because I consider Superman stronger, more durable and more mobile than Thor that I'm saying this is a close match.

Maelkith had the power of the Aether when he blocked Mjolnir. If Kal tries to block it with his arm that would be the end of the fight right there.

To beat the hammer away like curse did he'd have to prove that he has the fighter reflexes to do something like that... something that he has yet to show.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Even with equal speed, how would Thor Dodge him? Was there any mention of Hulk being as fast as Thor and Thor using his skills that I missed?

You do realize that when a fighter blocks or dodges a blow it's not really that much about speed as it is about timing, technique, muscle memory and reflexes right?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yup, post movie events. In which case Kal has only been in 2 fights in his entire life. Like I said, he's still the least experienced fighter Thor has ever fought. If you completely took out all their powers, made them human and made them fight h2h, Thor would completely demolish him. It's only because I consider Superman stronger, more durable and more mobile than Thor that I'm saying this is a close match.

Maelkith had the power of the Aether when he blocked Mjolnir. If Kal tries to block it with his arm that would be the end of the fight right there.

To beat the hammer away like curse did he'd have to prove that he has the fighter reflexes to do something like that... something that he has yet to show.

Even if he did have the Aether, MoS would wipe the floor with Mal. So MoS>Mal w/Aether. So it does not mean much other then it helped him keep up with Thor.

Kal weakened took down the world engine.

What strength feats does Thor have? Because charged hammer strikes are not strength feats..thats a weapon feat.

Originally posted by ares834
No such thing is said. He says he will cause it to keep "doubling back" which is an expression that means to return it back where it came from not actually double it.

Exactly. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/double+back


double back

vb
1. (intr, adverb) to go back in the opposite direction (esp in the phrase double back on one's tracks)

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Even if he did have the Aether, MoS would wipe the floor with Mal. So MoS>Mal w/Aether. So it does not mean much other then it helped him keep up with Thor.

Kal weakened took down the world engine.

What strength feats does Thor have? Because charged hammer strikes are not strength feats..thats a weapon feat.

MOS would only stand a chance against Mal with Aether if he had his superspeed. If that's taken out then I don't see how he can take out Maelkith.

Thor strength feat? How about blocking a punch from a completely enraged Hulk? Hulk who has enough punching power to stop a leviathan in it's tracks. Thor is not as strong as the Hulk and he's not as strong as Superman, but he's strong enough to keep up. What he does have is a lot more hitting/striking power than either of them. And in a fight, that matters more than strength (unless this becomes a grappling match).

Thor also has AOE attacks and more versatile ranged attacks. Some of his lightning attacks doesn't seem to even need to be aimed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
What he does have is a lot more hitting/striking power than either of them. And in a fight, that matters more than strength (unless this becomes a grappling match).
Based on what?

Originally posted by FrothByte
MOS would only stand a chance against Mal with Aether if he had his superspeed. If that's taken out then I don't see how he can take out Maelkith.

Thor strength feat? How about blocking a punch from a completely enraged Hulk? Hulk who has enough punching power to stop a leviathan in it's tracks. Thor is not as strong as the Hulk and he's not as strong as Superman, but he's strong enough to keep up. What he does have is a lot more hitting/striking power than either of them. And in a fight, that matters more than strength (unless this becomes a grappling match).

Thor also has AOE attacks and more versatile ranged attacks. Some of his lightning attacks doesn't seem to even need to be aimed.

So his blocking feat on the helicarrier is his only strength feat and we gonna power scale that to a leviathan level strength feat? No...it doesn't work that way.

You keep wanting to take away his speed. Then lets take away Thor's hammer I mean cmon now this is getting silly. Even if he lost his speed he could still fly. Are we limiting how fast he can fly now if we take away his speed, because he uses his flight mainly as his speed to close the distance.

MOS also has a heavy hitting ranged attack as well. So he's not stuck to H2H, and most likely it would get into a brawl/grabble like it did with Hulk, Ironman, Loki, Kurse and everyone else he fought. So the amazing skill Thor has will be met with MoS superior strength and durability.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Based on what?

Based on him demolishing acres of land with charged Mjolnir shots. I don't recall MOS ever displaying such striking power with a single hit.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
So his blocking feat on the helicarrier is his only strength feat and we gonna power scale that to a leviathan level strength feat? No...it doesn't work that way.

You keep wanting to take away his speed. Then lets take away Thor's hammer I mean cmon now this is getting silly. Even if he lost his speed he could still fly. Are we limiting how fast he can fly now if we take away his speed, because he uses his flight mainly as his speed to close the distance.

MOS also has a heavy hitting ranged attack as well. So he's not stuck to H2H, and most likely it would get into a brawl/grabble like it did with Hulk, Ironman, Loki, Kurse and everyone else he fought. So the amazing skill Thor has will be met with MoS superior strength and durability.

Hey man, I'm not the one making the rules. You want to give Superman his speed? Then he wins. You want to take away Thor's hammer? Then Superman still wins. I won't argue against those.

Superman has one ranged attack. I'm not denying it's powerful, but he doesn't have AOE like Thor nor does he have the same versatility of powers.

Him brawling with Thor is the worst thing Superman could do. Because then Thor's fighting skill will come into play. Superman's best bet is to just keep flying around, tackling Thor, punch him a few times then fly out. At least that's what I would do if I was Kal. Of course the more time he flies away the more time Thor gets to use ranged and charged attacks.

And yes, I'm assuming equal speed means that their flight speed is equal as well, which means no one is speed blitzing the other. If he gets superspeed flight then that's a different story.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Hey man, I'm not the one making the rules. You want to give Superman his speed? Then he wins. You want to take away Thor's hammer? Then Superman still wins. I won't argue against those.

Superman has one ranged attack. I'm not denying it's powerful, but he doesn't have AOE like Thor nor does he have the same versatility of powers.

Him brawling with Thor is the worst thing Superman could do. Because then Thor's fighting skill will come into play. Superman's best bet is to just keep flying around, tackling Thor, punch him a few times then fly out. At least that's what I would do if I was Kal. Of course the more time he flies away the more time Thor gets to use ranged and charged attacks.

And yes, I'm assuming equal speed means that their flight speed is equal as well, which means no one is speed blitzing the other. If he gets superspeed flight then that's a different story.

His AOE attacks are powerful, but AOE attacks are really only used to take out fodder. Focused blasts like what he tried to do on Ironman are more effective on the power players.

By thinking that if MOS gets close he's going to lose is really silly don't you think? The "He's been in 2 fights theory" goes straight out the window when you see what he was up against and pulled through. Ironman did plenty well against him. Going by screen feats, Kurse had only been on one fight. I just don't by into Thor's been fighting for thousands of years. Maybe in CBVF, but here we know we all go on screen feats. So while Thor has more movies and fights on screen, none of those were like the MOS fights, and the one time he went up against a slow moving brick he got stomped.

I for one like Thor and usually watch it whenever its on FX. I have watched it more then MOS I can tell you that cause its always on, so I think I could tell the difference between the fights in Metropolis and Smallville vs the bi frost, hellicarrier and forest fight.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
His AOE attacks are powerful, but AOE attacks are really only used to take out fodder. Focused blasts like what he tried to do on Ironman are more effective on the power players.

By thinking that if MOS gets close he's going to lose is really silly don't you think? The "He's been in 2 fights theory" goes straight out the window when you see what he was up against and pulled through. Ironman did plenty well against him. Going by screen feats, Kurse had only been on one fight. I just don't by into Thor's been fighting for thousands of years. Maybe in CBVF, but here we know we all go on screen feats. So while Thor has more movies and fights on screen, none of those were like the MOS fights, and the one time he went up against a slow moving brick he got stomped.

I for one like Thor and usually watch it whenever its on FX. I have watched it more then MOS I can tell you that cause its always on, so I think I could tell the difference between the fights in Metropolis and Smallville vs the bi frost, hellicarrier and forest fight.

Kurse has been in one fight in the movies but 1.) Is an elven general who's implied to have been in several wars, 2) outfought an established skilled fighter (Thor) and 3.) actually has good feats of reflex speed

You keep bringing up the Kurse fight to make it seem like Thor is a crappy fighter but what the Kurse fight actually shows is that for all his bulk, Kurse was actually a good fighter. Besides, you keep bringing that up I'll have to bring up Clarke getting knocked out by an oil rig. Because if we're going for low showings then we might as well use low showings for both characters.

You really believe Superman has enough skill to hang with Thor then prove it. Show me instances where Superman actually displayed skill instead of just brawling.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Kurse has been in one fight in the movies but 1.) Is an elven general who's implied to have been in several wars, 2) outfought an established skilled fighter (Thor) and 3.) actually has good feats of reflex speed

You keep bringing up the Kurse fight to make it seem like Thor is a crappy fighter but what the Kurse fight actually shows is that for all his bulk, Kurse was actually a good fighter. Besides, you keep bringing that up I'll have to bring up Clarke getting knocked out by an oil rig. Because if we're going for low showings then we might as well use low showings for both characters.

You really believe Superman has enough skill to hang with Thor then prove it. Show me instances where Superman actually displayed skill instead of just brawling.

Me bringing up Kurse is not me implying Thor is a crappy fighter. Its acknowledging the fact that when he goes up against a power player like Kurse he faces trouble. Is the Kurse fight a low showing? Or was he just that vastly outgunned? MOS can reproduce Kurse's feats now, because they seem on the same level strength wise H2H.

I don't consider this brawling:

Tb8u3Aunsyw

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Me bringing up Kurse is not me implying Thor is a crappy fighter. Its acknowledging the fact that when he goes up against a power player like Kurse he faces trouble. Is the Kurse fight a low showing? Or was he just that vastly outgunned? MOS can reproduce Kurse's feats now, because they seem on the same level strength wise H2H.

I don't consider this brawling:

Tb8u3Aunsyw And Thor was able to hold his own in strength against Hulk for awhile. Hulk who also has better strength feats than Kurse.

So does that mean Thor was somehow weaker when he fought Kurse than he when did against Hulk?

Originally posted by Newjak
And Thor was able to hold his own in strength against Hulk for awhile. Hulk who also has better strength feats than Kurse.

So does that mean Thor was somehow weaker when he fought Kurse than he when did against Hulk?

I'm debating with Froth right now, I'll deal with you later.

In all seriousness, Kurse is probably stronger then Hulk based on his showing. I don't think he would have any problem stopping the leviathan.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I'm debating with Froth right now, I'll deal with you later. I'm trying to point a problem with automatically assuming that because MoS can duplicate Kurse's few strength feats that means that are automatically equivalent.

I mean Kurse did not have many quantifiable strength feats. Basically his feats are lifting people off the ground and throwing that boulder really hard.

If those are feats people need to duplicate than Ironman would be as strong as Kurse. War Machine can fly with a tank as described in AoU, and Tony can casually quick a car 20 feet in one of his weaker armors ala IM2.

Hulk's strength feats are far better than that. Heck the Leviathan feats easily trumps anything Kurse did strength feat wise.

None of them were easily able or unable all together to over power Thor.

Personally if you wanted to show MoS being greatly stronger than Thor I would go the showing MoS to be much stronger than Hulk route than the Kurse route.

EDIT: Just saw your edit.

Personally I would currently pick Kurse i na majority over Hulk based solely on their combat feats against Thor. Kurse clearly looked superior.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Based on him demolishing acres of land with charged Mjolnir shots. I don't recall MOS ever displaying such striking power with a single hit.
It wasn't a hammer strike it was a thunderbolt if you're referring to the Jotenheim scene.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
It wasn't a hammer strike it was a thunderbolt if you're referring to the Jotenheim scene.

Well I didn't say it was just a hammer strike, I said it was a charged hammer strike. But doesn't really matter, the point is that Thor is capable of leveling an entire town with one shot (whether through lightning or mjolnir). Superman has never fought anyone who can hit as hard.

Superman still wins, but its closer.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well I didn't say it was just a hammer strike, I said it was a charged hammer strike. But doesn't really matter, the point is that Thor is capable of leveling an entire town with one shot (whether through lightning or mjolnir). Superman has never fought anyone who can hit as hard.

From a small collision Zod and MoS had mid air it leveled a building. Imagine what would happen if he rammed earth's crust moving at full speed. He would level a city.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Me bringing up Kurse is not me implying Thor is a crappy fighter. Its acknowledging the fact that when he goes up against a power player like Kurse he faces trouble. Is the Kurse fight a low showing? Or was he just that vastly outgunned? MOS can reproduce Kurse's feats now, because they seem on the same level strength wise H2H.

I don't consider this brawling:

Tb8u3Aunsyw

Well at least we agree that it wasn't a low showing for Thor but was instead a high showing for Kurse. But Superman being able to replicate Kurse's single strength feat doesn't automatically make him as strong as Kurse... because we had yet to see Kurse's limits.

Kurse is also not just a powerhouse, as his fight against Thor proved he was decently fast and pretty skilled as well.

As for your vid, yeah that's still pretty much brawling. Just with fancy effects put in. I'll consider Superman skilled when he can do something like this to his fellow kryptonians:

https://youtu.be/4Ybnlsnbqgk

Considering those are cannon fodder and nothing is really happening to the environment. I don't know how that compares to the smallville fight.

How is Thor's hand 2 hand strength any where near a kryptonians. I still have not seen any H2H that put him at that level.

3J72eEF2X-Q

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Considering those are cannon fodder and nothing is really happening to the environment. I don't know how that compares to the smallville fight.

How is Thor's hand 2 hand strength any where near a kryptonians. I still have not seen any H2H that put him at that level.

3J72eEF2X-Q

Maybe they are fodder, but those are still other Asgardians he fought. Asgardian warriors, who have way more fighting experience than a farmboy. And he easily defeated them. Kal has zero feats of defeating anyone that easily. Kal has zero feats of him displaying that kind of fighting skill. Neither does Zod, Namek or even Faora for that matter.

As for H2H strength, need I keep repeating his fight against Hulk? Him being able to block Hulk's punch when Hulk can stop a leviathan in it's tracks with one punch? How bout the fact that IM can easily push around cars yet Thor catches his punch and easily holds it in place.

Is it in the same range as the krptonian's strength? Maybe not. But it's close enough that when combined with Mjolnir, his better fighting skills and his more versatile energy attacks it would make for a very hard fight for Superman to win without his superspeed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Maybe they are fodder, but those are still other Asgardians he fought. Asgardian warriors, who have way more fighting experience than a farmboy. And he easily defeated them. Kal has zero feats of defeating anyone that easily.

As for H2H strength, need I keep repeating his fight against Hulk? Him being able to block Hulk's punch when Hulk can stop a leviathan in it's tracks with one punch? How bout the fact that IM can easily push around cars yet Thor catches his punch and easily holds it in place.

Is it in the same range as the krptonian's strength? Maybe not. But it's close enough that when combined with Mjolnir, his better fighting skills and his more versatile energy attacks it would make for a very hard fight for Superman to win without his superspeed.

Kal would have destroyed those guys without even a sweat. It would have been a slaughter of epic proportions.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Kal would have destroyed those guys without even a sweat. It would have been a slaughter of epic proportions.

Of course Superman would have been able to beat them. That wasn't the point.. That scene was to prove fighting ability. To show the difference between someone who brawls (Superman) and someone who actually knows how to fight (Thor).

Superman's got this due to speedblitzing. There's really nothing Mjolnir can do about a guy who flies 9 times the speed of light.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Of course Superman would have been able to beat them. That wasn't the point.. That scene was to prove fighting ability. To show the difference between someone who brawls (Superman) and someone who actually knows how to fight (Thor).

Thats fancy tricks and showboating, he could of just punched them in the face and been done with it. Also supes isn't fighting with spears.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Thats fancy tricks and showboating, he could of just punched them in the face and been done with it. Also supes isn't fighting with spears.

Nah, if Superman tried to just walk straight in and punch one of them in the face he would have been skewered with a few spears and swords.

Let me ask you this: If you removed all of Thor's and Superman's powers, made them fight without weapons, how do you think the fight would turn out?

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Superman's got this due to speedblitzing. There's really nothing Mjolnir can do about a guy who flies 9 times the speed of light.

Post a clip of MOS Superman flying at 9 times the speed of light.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Nah, if Superman tried to just walk straight in and punch one of them in the face he would have been skewered with a few spears and swords.

Let me ask you this: If you removed all of Thor's and Superman's powers, made them fight without weapons, how do you think the fight would turn out?

They would have broken on him upon impact. None of those people demonstrated any type of strength compared to Kal, your also using stuff that was never on screen, I'm being agreeable to debating it, but your starting to stretch this off screen feat farther and farther now saying they could hurt Mos with some spears.

Obviously Thor would win in a powerless fight, but because Krptonian powers are that much above a fully powered Asgardian is why it does not matter. It eliminates the gap in skills.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
They would have broken on him upon impact. None of those people demonstrated any type of strength compared to Kal, your also using stuff that was never on screen, I'm being agreeable to debating it, but your starting to stretch this off screen feat farther and farther now saying they could hurt Mos with some spears.

Obviously Thor would win in a powerless fight, but because Krptonian powers are that much above a fully powered Asgardian is why it does not matter. It eliminates the gap in skills.

I'm not using it as proof of anything. Just trying to show that Kal is just a brawler in comparison to Thor.

Prove that Asgardian spears will break against Kryptonian skin? You're pulling this out of nowhere.

Thor has a massive fighting skill advantage over Superman. Based on feats, Thor's durability also seems to be in the same range. I've been agreeable saying that I THINK Superman is stronger and more durable, but you don't really have any proof to show that Superman massively outclasses Thor in strength.

thanos wins this, he teams up with Darkseid

Thanos is just a poor-man's Darkseid.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm not using it as proof of anything. Just trying to show that Kal is just a brawler in comparison to Thor.

Prove that Asgardian spears will break against Kryptonian skin? You're pulling this out of nowhere.

Thor has a massive fighting skill advantage over Superman. Based on feats, Thor's durability also seems to be in the same range. I've been agreeable saying that I THINK Superman is stronger and more durable, but you don't really have any proof to show that Superman massively outclasses Thor in strength.

He snapped those wooden spears like lolly pops. How are Asgardian Spears now piercing Kal now when Kryptonian weapons far outclassing those spears did not?

Since you using off screen deleted scenes, I might as well use him bringing a space rocket down.

xe1LrMqURuw

Originally posted by Robtard
Thanos is just a poor-man's Darkseid.

even with the gems and gauntlet?

i give praise to the church of robtard

Originally posted by Robtard
Thanos is just a poor-man's Darkseid. Untrue. Darkseid is the one who begged Superman to stop hitting him. Thanos is what Darkseid wants to be when he grows up.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
He snapped those wooden spears like lolly pops. How are Asgardian Spears now piercing Kal now when Kryptonian weapons far outclassing those spears did not?

Since you using off screen deleted scenes, I might as well use him bringing a space rocket down.

xe1LrMqURuw

Which kryptonian weapons have not hurt Superman? Clips?

You're verging on a no limits fallacy here. Just because Superman tanked earth-made bullets he is somehow invulnerable to Asgardian weaponry as well?

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
From a small collision Zod and MoS had mid air it leveled a building. Imagine what would happen if he rammed earth's crust moving at full speed. He would level a city. Superman + Zod together couldn't do the damage Thor did by himself, not to mention he hit an object flying away from him as opposed to Supes & Zod who had momentum to help them.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Based on Thor surviving his own city buster, how is MoS Superman even hurting him? Also lol @ Hulk not having Superspeed, did you not see him running away from Widow, and her not even coming close to keeping up?

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Superman + Zod together couldn't do the damage Thor did by himself, not to mention he hit an object flying away from him as opposed to Supes & Zod who had momentum to help them.

I don't get your point, he used his weapon. If MOS rammed that thing flying it would have blew it up as well.

Two different methods and powers, same result.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I don't get your point, he used his weapon. If MOS rammed that thing flying it would have blew it up as well.

Two different methods and powers, same result. its Thor's power set...

Superman (while charging) hit Zod (who was charging in the opposite direction) & they did pitiful damage compared to Thor.

Prove Superman can do what Thor did, or don't idc.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Untrue. Darkseid is the one who begged Superman to stop hitting him. Thanos is what Darkseid wants to be when he grows up.

An old fart that steals from children?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/54054/1057692-sss_thanos01.jpg

Its pretty simple here, he rams the core, like he did the world engine, and blows the whole thing up..

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
its Thor's power set...

Superman (while charging) hit Zod (who was charging in the opposite direction) & they did pitiful damage compared to Thor.

Prove Superman can do what Thor did, or don't idc.

Thor didn't destroy the city, the reactor did.

IIRC, that "reactor" wasn't explosive. It was supposed to levitate the land mass and hold it together. Nothing about it was explosive from what I recall.

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Thor didn't destroy the city, the reactor did. the vibranium core was in the rubble, Thor didn't explode it...Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Its pretty simple here, he rams the core, like he did the world engine, and blows the whole thing up.. so, no you can't prove it.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
the vibranium core was in the rubble, Thor didn't explode it... so, no you can't prove it.

I didn't know I was debating with a 12 year old in a 5 year olds body.

Ignored..

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I didn't know I was debating with a 12 year old in a 5 year olds body.

Ignored.. ok?

Reported for flaming

Originally posted by FrothByte
Which kryptonian weapons have not hurt Superman? Clips?

You're verging on a no limits fallacy here. Just because Superman tanked earth-made bullets he is somehow invulnerable to Asgardian weaponry as well?

World Engine sentry defense and the "special beam cannon", Kryptonian drop ship plasma cannon.

So those cannon fodder troops spears that Thor snapped like twigs are going to pierce MOS because they are made in Asgard?

Kryptonians are basically human, unless there was a non-native sun around.

So Superman tanked human weapons... Yes Asguardian weapons are plainly stated as being above human tech to the point it's called "magic"

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
World Engine sentry defense and the "special beam cannon", Kryptonian drop ship plasma cannon.

So those cannon fodder troops spears that Thor snapped like twigs are going to pierce MOS because they are made in Asgard?

Kryptonians weren't superpowered in their homeworld, so their weapons were never meant to fight off superpowered beings. Asgardians on the other hand are as powerful on Earth as they are on Asgard, so their weapons were specifically made to battle superpowered beings whether it was against Frost giants, dark elves, kree or even other Asgardians.

So yeah, Asgardian weaponry should definitely be more powerful than Kryptonian weapons.

Superman ain't brushing off those spears and swords.

Superman all day.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Superman all day. Based on ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on ? Blind Fanaticism

Originally posted by FrothByte
Kryptonians weren't superpowered in their homeworld, so their weapons were never meant to fight off superpowered beings. Asgardians on the other hand are as powerful on Earth as they are on Asgard, so their weapons were specifically made to battle superpowered beings whether it was against Frost giants, dark elves, kree or even other Asgardians.

So yeah, Asgardian weaponry should definitely be more powerful than Kryptonian weapons.

Superman ain't brushing off those spears and swords.



He is brushing off swords and spears and thats just the way it is.


Wow froth, I never thought I would see you grasping for straws in this debate to go back to this.

Are you kidding, they were blasting through blast doors, and incinerated one of the council members upon impact.

Did you even watch MOS beginning and watch the whole planet go under civil war?

Even on Krypton they were radical alien weapons, you saying they were nothing because they were on Krypton is like saying Predator weapons on their home world mean nothing.

I guess tanks here mean nothing to us since we make them.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial


He is brushing off swords and spears and thats just the way it is.


Wow froth, I never thought I would see you grasping for straws in this debate to go back to this.

Are you kidding, they were blasting through blast doors, and incinerated one of the council members upon impact.

Did you even watch MOS beginning and watch the whole planet go under civil war? Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Blind Fanaticism

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Blind Fanaticism