Starkiller vs. Darth Nyriss (sabers only)

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by AncientPower
]A nexus of Dark Side energy of Kaas City tier is going to exponentially increase any Dark Sider's power, that power is going to increase how deep a reserve of Force energy they can augment their own speed with. Not your best argument.

Dromund Kaas the site of the Emperor's living for a thousand years and endless experiments is not an immensely powerful nexus? Holy shit I think LeGenD just lowballed Vitiate.

Yes plenty of people can, show me a single un-amped lightsaber feat from Nyriss.
Kaas City doesn't represents a nexus of dark side energy, this is your personal assumption. Officially, Dark Temple represents a nexus of dark side energy.

Also, a nexus setting can bolster stamina and facilitate superior manipulation of the Force but it doesn't influences speed. Still, this is irrelevant since Nyriss's confrontation with Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik didn't take place in a nexus setting.

Vitiate transformed some regions (e.g. Dark Temple) into a nexus of dark side energy and corrupted the environment of Dromund Kaas in its entirety. It is likely that Dromund Kaas became stronger in the dark side in its entirety due to Vitiate's actions but only those parts of it became a nexus of dark side energy where Vitiate performed his dark side experiments more frequently then his norm.

Nyriss have fought in other planets such as Drezzi and Melldia and became famous for her exploits in them. Her confrontations in these worlds are not documented but this doesn't means that she lacks as a combatant in a neutral setting.

Your assumptions are misplaced and represent cheap attempts to belittle Nyriss' showings.

ILS

Originally posted by AncientPower
They both had very similar circumstances to stalemate each other with as the novel makes abundantly clear. If Starkiller hadn't been on his tier or close to it, he'd have been stomped. Their Death Star battle was not one in which Vader held back and Starkiller was beating him on every level. It's okay, you don't have to debate me. I'm just making sure that you're aware, that I'm aware, that you're aware that you're talking out of your ass when you say Galen is a Vader-tier duelist. We've done the dance plenty of times, and it was always your side that stopped replying with arguments in the end.

With order restored once again, I take my leave. I look forward to observing the Ancient/Legend slugfest from my titanium coated tower.

/smokebomb

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nexus setting doesn't augments speed, genius. Also, Dromund Kaas is not a nexus in its entirety. Your assertions are baseless.

Starkiller cannot stomp Nyriss in a lightsaber duel. I really doubt that anybody can.

Jesus christ.

I might just start profiling the stupid shit that he says, IE Kaas not being a Nexus, Nexus' not augmenting speed, and Nyriss being un-stompable in sabers.

Kit Fisto was far, far greater than she ever was and he got slapped down like a child.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
Jesus christ.

I might just start profiling the stupid shit that he says, IE Kaas not being a Nexus, Nexus' not augmenting speed, and Nyriss being un-stompable in sabers.

Kit Fisto was far, far greater than she ever was and he got slapped down like a child.
You better profile your stupid shit and unsubstantiated theories, so that others may have an easy time at recalling your double-standards and lameness concerning some content of TOR era.

I know that you are butthurt about Nyriss' superiority over Meetra Surik but you need to get over it.

Fisto is a far far greater duelist then Nyriss now? Another unsubstantiated gem from you. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'd say that Fisto isn't even on level of Meetra Surik, forget Darth Nyriss.

NewGuy01

Are we talking about Galen Marek or his clone?

Actually, I guess it doesn't matter. Either way, I'd probably say them in a pretty even fight tbh.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, a nexus setting can bolster stamina and facilitate superior manipulation of the Force but it doesn't influences speed. Still, this is irrelevant since Nyriss's confrontation with Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik didn't take place in a nexus setting. I'm with Selenial on this one, you need to explain your logic.

Force speed is a Force ability that involves manipulating the Force to make yourself faster. Therefore on an area where the Force is concentrated your ability to augment your speed via the Force will increase. Your assertion to the contrary is the only baseless argument being made here.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm with Selenial on this one, you need to explain your logic.

Force speed is a Force ability that involves manipulating the Force to make yourself faster. Therefore on an area where the Force is concentrated your ability to augment your speed via the Force will increase. Your assertion to the contrary is the only baseless argument being made here.
Even if my understanding of influence of nexus setting on a Force-user is limited, Kaas City isn't a nexus of dark side energy. Therefore, my stand on this matter is valid still.

NewGuy01

@LeGenD As you said, a nexus facilitates superior manipulation of the Force. Force users manipulate the Force to enhance their speed. Therefore a nexus directly influences speed as well.

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You better profile your stupid shit and unsubstantiated theories, so that others may have an easy time at recalling your double-standards and lameness concerning some content of TOR era.

I know that you are butthurt about Nyriss' superiority over Meetra Surik but you need to get over it.

Fisto is a far far greater duelist then Nyriss now? Another unsubstantiated gem from you. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'd say that Fisto isn't even on level of Meetra Surik, forget Darth Nyriss.

You're literally saying Nyriss is a better duelist than "" from one passage in which she's in a fit of rage on a Nexus fighting extremely depleted opponents.

And I'm the one with unsubstantiated theories eek!

NewGuy01

Actually, I'm not sure what the problem is there, tbh.

|King Joker|

Nice profile pic, Beni. wink

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even if my understanding of influence of nexus setting on a Force-user is limited, Kaas City isn't a nexus of dark side energy. Therefore, my stand on this matter is valid still. Limited indeed. I'd avoid lecturing people on the subject in the future.

As for the setting, I don't believe it was in Kaas City, but somewhere outside.

Regardless considering that Dromund Kaas is:And according to Luke from the Fate of the Jedi series is:And once they land on the planet, is described in this manner:Nyriss would have had her powers amplified in some form, if not considerably. Simply because the planet is not described as a nexus, and made exclusive from nexuses such as the Dark Temple, does not mean the dark side of the Force is not potent.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Nice profile pic, Beni. wink

Thanks.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
You're literally saying Nyriss is a better duelist than "" from one passage in which she's in a fit of rage on a Nexus fighting extremely depleted opponents.

And I'm the one with unsubstantiated theories eek!

Kit Fisto could be among the most skilled lightsaber combatants of his era but he specialized in Form I which isn't great for lightsaber combat. Additional lightsaber combat forms have been developed for some reasons.

Darth Nyriss have one of the best showings in the aspects of lightsaber combat in the mythos, hype is not necessary to prove her mettle when actual feats can be considered.

Lord Scourge was also an expert swordsman of such a caliber that even his instructors became reluctant to challenge him in a duel at the time of his graduation, specialized in all forms of lightsaber combat. On top of this, he is recognized as Meetra Surik TIER in the context of holistic capabilities during the era of Revan. Even he failed out cope with Darth Nyriss in a confrontation, and he didn't had any disadvantage in the context of setting.

In short, Nyriss is legit and Fisto is plainly hyped.

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kit Fisto could be among the most skilled lightsaber combatants of his era but he specialized in Form I which isn't great for lightsaber combat. Additional lightsaber combat forms have been developed for some reasons.

Kit Fisto overcame the boundaries of Form 1 lightsaber combat. His ridiculous speed was more than enough to make the disadvantages meaningless.

That's frankly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Wow. Lord Scourge scared a few lords who sometimes aren't even lords. That's super impressive, much wow. He's not recognized as Surik tier actually, he thinks he might have a good fight with her. Massive difference.

Trocity

If anything, Fisto is legit and Nyriss is overrated hype. Don't get me wrong, she's good, but come on now.

DarthAnt66

Nah, Scourge knew what he was talking about. He could sense her power - plus he had the ability to analyze opponents in battling and automatically know their strengths and weaknesses.

Plus, authorial intention.

Beniboybling

To be quite honest, Starkiller should be considerably faster and stronger than Nyriss by merit of being a more powerful Force User.

He's also managed to contend with (and in one instance defeat) Darth Vader in saber combat, so there is no reason to believe her lightsaber abilities should prove an issue either.

I wouldn't say Starkiler is Vader tier duellist but he is evidently able to contend with one, Nyriss will find herself out of her depth.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
Kit Fisto overcame the boundaries of Form 1 lightsaber combat. His ridiculous speed was more than enough to make the disadvantages meaningless.
Kit Fisto overcame shit, his weaknesses became apparent in his confrontations with other skilled lightsaber combatants such as Asajj Ventress and Darth Sidious.

In addition, Form I is acknowledged as a balanced lightsaber combat Form even during TOR era.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's frankly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
Nyriss demonstrated combat prowess of such magnitude that she outdueled two EXPERT lightsaber combatants such as Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik.

Your complaints are ridiculous and irrational in regards to the official representation of Nyriss.

Originally posted by Selenial
Wow. Lord Scourge scared a few lords who sometimes aren't even lords. That's super impressive, much wow. He's not recognized as Surik tier actually, he thinks he might have a good fight with her. Massive difference.
Lord Scourge was a battle-hardened warrior and was chosen by the Emperor himself to help Nyriss in tracking down and eliminating her enemies.

And Lord Scourge is implied to be Surik TIER because he felt that she represented a decent test for him, should it come down to exchanging blows between them. As an experienced Force-user with the ability to analyze the capabilities of his opponents, his judgement has merit in this regard.

Beniboybling

Surik would flatten Scourge lol

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Trocity
If anything, Fisto is legit and Nyriss is overrated hype. Don't get me wrong, she's good, but come on now.
FIXED below:

Originally posted by Trocity
If anything, Nyriss is legit and Fisto is overrated hype. Don't get me wrong, he's good, but come on now.

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kit Fisto overcame shit, his weaknesses became apparent in his confrontations with other skilled lightsaber combatants such as Asajj Ventress and Darth Sidious.

In addition, Form I is acknowledged as a balanced lightsaber combat form even during TOR era.

Your ignorance is amusing. Kenobi is a far superior duelist to Ventress, and in regards to Kenobi: "Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive" Besides, Ventress beat Kit due to prior knowledge in his forms and weakness. Kit's fighting style is to go overly agressive, almost brutish, but no Jedi would ever do that against an opponent they do not know. He knew nothing of Ventress.

Losing to Sidious is hardly a bad thing.

Kenobi out-dueled Maul and Savage, but still everyone recognizes that Maul and Kenobi are of the same tier. 2v2 fighting is difficult to gauge, but even so, Marek contended with Vader and that is a far superior feat.

Scourge was only chosen because he had no affiliation to any Dark Council member. Try again.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Limited indeed. I'd avoid lecturing people on the subject in the future.
Do explain to me that why Darth Malgus and Darth Vader were highly effective in combat in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, if a nexus setting considerably influences (either positively or negatively) a Force-user's ability to call upon the Force.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As for the setting, I don't believe it was in Kaas City, but somewhere outside.
And her place isn't recognized as a nexus of the dark side energy.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless considering that Dromund Kaas is:And according to Luke from the Fate of the Jedi series is:

And once they land on the planet, is described in this manner:

Nyriss would have had her powers amplified in some form, if not considerably. Simply because the planet is not described as a nexus, and made exclusive from nexuses such as the Dark Temple, does not mean the dark side of the Force is not potent.
Now this is an argument worth respect. Appreciated.

Dark Side could be (holistically) potent on Dromund Kaas but Nyriss outdueled Lord Scourge as well, an individual whose lightsaber combat skills are more clearly defined and hyped in comparison to that of Surik's .

Nyriss is legit. The end.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
Your ignorance is amusing. Kenobi is a far superior duelist to Ventress, and in regards to Kenobi: "Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive" Besides, Ventress beat Kit due to prior knowledge in his forms and weakness. Kit's fighting style is to go overly agressive, almost brutish, but no Jedi would ever do that against an opponent they do not know. He knew nothing of Ventress.
Obi-Wan Kenobi may have felt like that at one time but he continued to hone his dueling talents further with passage of time.

Asajj Ventress had no prior experience with Kit Fisto, she observed him fighting some opponents from a distance and was able to counter his moves when he attacked her. This is not an unusual development, and shouldn't be used as an excuse for Fisto's failure or vulnerabilities in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Selenial
Losing to Sidious is hardly a bad thing.
Indeed! But loosing to Darth Sidious like a chump is a bad thing.

Originally posted by Selenial
Kenobi out-dueled Maul and Savage, but still everyone recognizes that Maul and Kenobi are of the same tier. 2v2 fighting is difficult to gauge, but even so, Marek contended with Vader and that is a far superior feat.
Contending with Vader is relatively a far superior showing , not officially implied and/or promoted as such. Big difference.

Originally posted by Selenial
Scourge was only chosen because he had no affiliation to any Dark Council member. Try again.
This as well:

His presence was an insult to her loyal followers, and a reminder that the Emperor doubted her ability to deal with the assassins herself.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

DarthAnt66

I'm confused what the debate is. Someone enlighten me.

The_Tempest

Half of the things in this thread make me cringe.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And according to Luke from the Fate of the Jedi series is:

And once they land on the planet, is described in this manner:

Nyriss would have had her powers amplified in some form, if not considerably. Simply because the planet is not described as a nexus, and made exclusive from nexuses such as the Dark Temple, does not mean the dark side of the Force is not potent.

Both these quotes are from thousands of years after Nyriss died though.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Nephthys
Both these quotes are from thousands of years after Nyriss died though. And over those thousands of years, very little happened, and it saw very little use, certainly none such use that would have at all added to it's dark side potency. So indeed if anything, the nexus would have gotten weaker.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And over those thousands of years, very little happened, and it saw very little use, certainly none such use that would have at all added to it's dark side potency. So indeed if anything, the nexus would have gotten weaker.

We don't know that. How do you know that nothing majorly effed up the planet after Nyriss' death? Like a ****ton of Sith dying when the Empire fell? Or Vitiate getting finished off for good and exploding in a blast of the energy from Nathema?

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do explain to me that why Darth Malgus and Darth Vader were highly effective in combat in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, if a nexus setting considerably influences (either positively or negatively) a Force-user's ability to call upon the Force.I can only assume your implying that the supposed light side nexus of the Jedi Temple should have weakened them.

This is not how it works. Where the dark side is oppressive, the light side is passive. Only dark side nexuses are know to stifle one's ability to wield the Force, a light side nexus, if any such thing can exist, as they are merely referred to as "Force nexuses", simply doesn't possess this oppressive nature.

Indeed refer Irek Ismaren i.e. Lord Nyax, who managed to tap into to these energies. Given that it should have not been detrimental to them whatsoever.
I'm sorry but the story continues.

Nyriss defeated Scourge through superior speed and strength, not skill, via her evidently superior Force ability she could and was able to simply overwhelm Scourge, and in this respect Scourge's lightsaber skills proved negilible.

Indeed as Scourge remarks:This is made quite evident in the fight itself also:This is effectively the extent of Scourge's ability to challenge Nyriss, in which he is too slow to even offer a counterattack and bring his martial skills to bear, and once away from Nyriss, cannot even engage her without being blown back.

Sadly for Nyriss, she'll have no such luxuries against Starkiller, who should have little difficult contending with her strength and speed, furthermore as one with specialises in the art of Sith sorcery, it is likely that she favoured study of Force abilities over lightsaber combat.

Which makes it equally unlikely she'll be a superior duelist to an individual who has been forged into a martial weapon by one of the greatest lighsaber duellists in mythos.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Nephthys
We don't know that. How do you know that nothing majorly effed up the planet after Nyriss' death? Like a ****ton of Sith dying when the Empire fell? Or Vitiate getting finished off for good and exploding in a blast of the energy from Nathema? So we are now resorting to making up lore to support our arguments?

How about we look at what actually has happened in existing continuity, and if something to this effect does happen, we can take that into account.

Fated Xtasy

SK was able to contend Master swordsmen like Ti who was considered one of the most accomplished duelists of the order(TCW magazine) and was also revered by her fellow peers(TCW magazine). Not to mention considered dangerous by Mace(LoE)

That alone should put him above Nyriss in combat, adding Vader to the mix is just overkill.

Starkiller wins this IMO

Nephthys

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So we are now resorting to making up lore to support our arguments?

How about we look at what actually has happened in existing continuity, and if something to this effect does happen, we can take that into account.

No, we're not making up anything. We're just not assuming anything. That just makes an ass out of u and me.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, we're not making up anything. We're just not assuming anything. That just makes an ass out of u and me. Which is why I'm not assuming, I'm going off existing continuity.

In existing continuity nothing happened during this period. And when the writers and Fate of the Jedi and the creators of SWTOR envisioned Dromund Kaas they did not infer imaginary events, they looked at existing continuity of Dromund Kaas as a planet steeped in the dark side, and portrayed it accordingly.

We therefore have no reason to believe FotJ's portrayal of Dromund Kaas is in anyway different to SWTOR's portrayal of the planet due to imagined, non-existent events.

On the other hand it was most likely inferred (as it has been with Korriban and other Sith worlds) by the writers of FotJ and indeed those who wrote its initial appearance in Star Wars: Jedi Knight, that this ancient Sith world, visited in an era far from its golden age, might have lost some potency, yet remained so powerful in its prime, that it is still a threat.

Therefore for us as fans, based on existing continuity, its a valid conclusion to make.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Indeed! But loosing to Darth Sidious like a chump is a bad thing.Just as Scourge was handily and swiftly defeated by Nyriss?

He would have fared even worse against Sidious. He wouldn't have even drawn his saber.

Trocity

Yeah, I was gonna mention that - shitting on Kit Fisto for dying to Sidious quickly, when Thanaton gets absolutely godstomped in one of the most lopsided SW fights I've ever seen and Legend will still say he's better than Dooku, etc.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which is why I'm not assuming, I'm going off existing continuity.

In existing continuity nothing happened during this period. And when the writers and Fate of the Jedi and the creators of SWTOR envisioned Dromund Kaas they did not infer imaginary events, they looked at existing continuity of Dromund Kaas as a planet steeped in the dark side, and portrayed it accordingly.

We therefore have no reason to believe FotJ's portrayal of Dromund Kaas is in anyway different to SWTOR's portrayal of the planet due to imagined, non-existent events.

On the other hand it was most likely inferred (as it has been with Korriban and other Sith worlds) by the writers of FotJ and indeed those who wrote its initial appearance in Star Wars: Jedi Knight, that this ancient Sith world, visited in an era far from its golden age, might have lost some potency. Therefore for us as fans, based on existing continuity, its a valid conclusion to make.

You are assuming. Very much so.

Um, I just told you about something that did happen. The Sith Empire fell. There's a ton of variables there. The two things I mentioned were very plausible possibilities that you did not refute and those were just two random thoughts. Regardless, 3 and a half thousand years is a hell of a long time. It's illogical to dismiss that timespan as not relevant without knowledge.

It's funny how this is a valid conclusion to make whereas in other cases of ambiguity and a lack of knowledge people have always erred on the safe side. We don't know how Vitiate killed the Darth Council so we don't rule out a prepped ritual as a possibility. We cannot use nexus feats because we can't tell how big the amp was. Yet here it's just an easy assumption to make. 3,500 years of unknown variables is no reason to doubt something.

And again, you're just assuming that it lost it's potency. It is not likely inferred at all.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
SK was able to contend Master swordsmen like Ti who was considered one of the most accomplished duelists of the order(TCW magazine) and was also revered by her fellow peers(TCW magazine). Not to mention considered dangerous by Mace(LoE)

That alone should put him above Nyriss in combat, adding Vader to the mix is just overkill.

Starkiller wins this IMO
Master Usma is officially one of the greatest lightsaber duelists of the Jedi Order. Yet, Lord Praven defeated her inside the Jedi Temple on Coruscant.

So I shall assume that Lord Praven is above Darth Nyriss in combat, and adding Darth Vader to the mix is just overkill?

How about realizing the fact that Nyriss outdueled two expert swordsmen (and) accomplished warriors , and is therefore among the finest lightsaber duelists yet witnessed?

Nephthys

Sadic >>>> Praven.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Nephthys
You are assuming. Very much so.

Um, I just told you about something that did happen. The Sith Empire fell. There's a ton of variables there. The two things I mentioned were very plausible possibilities that you did not refute and those were just two random thoughts. Regardless, 3 and a half thousand years is a hell of a long time. It's illogical to dismiss that timespan as not relevant without knowledge. Your not taking into account the fact that they potrayed Dromund Kaas based on existing material, not what could or may have happened.

It's funny how this is a valid conclusion to make whereas in other cases of ambiguity and a lack of knowledge people have always erred on the safe side. We don't know how Vitiate killed the Darth Council so we don't rule out a prepped ritual as a possibility. We cannot use nexus feats because we can't tell how big the amp was. Yet here it's just an easy assumption to make. 3,500 years of unknown variables is no reason to doubt something.

And again, you're just assuming that it lost it's potency. It is not likely inferred at all. The authors of these works don't give a damn about your random thoughts, that's the thing, your not taking into account authorial intentions.

This is not a case of ambiguity or lack of knowledge, so its irrelevant to draw those comparisons.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I can only assume your implying that the supposed light side nexus of the Jedi Temple should have weakened them.

This is not how it works. Where the dark side is oppressive, the light side is passive. Only dark side nexuses are know to stifle one's ability to wield the Force, a light side nexus, if any such thing can exist, as they are merely referred to as "Force nexuses", simply doesn't possess this oppressive nature.

Indeed refer Irek Ismaren i.e. Lord Nyax, who managed to tap into to these energies. Given that it should have not been detrimental to them whatsoever.
I'm sorry but the story continues.
Hmm, interesting.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nyriss defeated Scourge through superior speed and strength, not skill, via her evidently superior Force ability she could and was able to simply overwhelm Scourge, and in this respect Scourge's lightsaber skills proved negilible.

Indeed as Scourge remarks:

This is made quite evident in the fight itself also:

This is effectively the extent of Scourge's ability to challenge Nyriss, in which he is too slow to even offer a counterattack and bring his martial skills to bear, and once away from Nyriss, cannot even engage her without being blown back.
Speed and strength are important determinants of dueling ability just like skill.

And Darth Nyriss isn't lacking in skill either:

Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra's defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

If Lord Scourge hadn't helped, Meetra Surik would have ended-up decapitated at this point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sadly for Nyriss, she'll have no such luxuries against Starkiller, who should have little difficult contending with her strength and speed, furthermore as one with specialises in the art of Sith sorcery, it is likely that she favoured study of Force abilities over lightsaber combat.

Which makes it equally unlikely she'll be a superior duelist to an individual who has been forged into a martial weapon by one of the greatest lighsaber duellists in mythos.
See above.

Starkiller may have the strength to cope with Nyriss's dueling ability but he doesn't have an advantage either.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The authors of these works don't give a damn about your random thoughts, that's the thing, your not taking into account authorial intentions.

This is not a case of ambiguity or lack of knowledge, so its irrelevant to draw those comparisons.

Lol. Mad as a hatter.

It pretty much is. You have no clue what happened in those several thousand years, you have no claim to knowledge. Neither of us can say jack shit about authorial intention so that's an appeal to indeed jack and shit.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Trocity
Yeah, I was gonna mention that - shitting on Kit Fisto for dying to Sidious quickly, when Thanaton gets absolutely godstomped in one of the most lopsided SW fights I've ever seen and Legend will still say he's better than Dooku, etc.
One of the most lopsided fights, really?

Darths Nox and Thanaton had a vicious duel before the latter decided to unleash his sorcery on the former, it was at this point that Nox called upon the power of several ghosts to fuel his own to tank the powers of Thanaton and destroy him.

The combined might of several ghosts on top of Nox's original strength is simply too much for a mortal to cope with.

For comparison, some ghosts attacked and mortally wounded Darth Sidious on Korriban. The Emperor was revived in a Bacta Tank afterwards.

Do the math.

Yes, Thanaton > Count Dooku

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Speed and strength are important determinants of dueling ability just like skill.Yes they are, but what your not accounting for in this case is that Nyriss lacks the advantage of speed and skill over Starkiller, and is in fact at a disadvantage, which will contribute to her defeat.Which again, is a demonstration of Nyriss' superior augmentative abilities, in this case strength. Nyriss' blows are too strong for the Exile, and she is forced into a vulnerable position. If anything the Exile's ability to "hold her ground" is a testament to the Exile's superior skill, yet it matters not against the might of her opponents Force abilities.Sorry, but I fail to see how the above disproves the reality that Nyriss' expertise most likely lies in Force abilities, not lightsaber combat, and that she has simply not recieved the adequate level of training required to put her on Starkiller's level.

And for the record, he does have the advantage. He's both a superior Force user and a superior lightsaber duelist. He wins. 10/10

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lord Scourge is really fast:-

Scourge have several interpretations of speed under his belt:

- Blur
- Blinding speed
- Supernatural
- Before enemies could react

Aside from speed, Lord Scourge doesn't lacks in praise for his lightsaber combat skills either.

And he still was not fast enough to cope with the speed and ferocity of Nyriss. Nyriss' speed and ferocity was such that even the author ran out of words to interpret them in proper.

I don't think that Starkiller have advantage in speed and skill over Nyriss. Sorry.Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise we where gauging speed based on the fancifulness of the adjectives used to described them. I bow to your superior logic.

/sarcasm.

All above-average Force users are described as moving as a blur, its a text book phrase.

And indeed Drew pratically acknowledges as such, saying that Scourge moves with:

the supernatural speed of the Force.

the blinding speed of the Force

Or rather, with the speed of a Force user. All Force users possess supernatural speed, because they all possess a supernatural power.

His abilities are likewise text book. He moves faster than simple machines. He moves faster than a non-Force sensitive with no physical training.

In future, don't base your arguments on subjective, vague and irrelevant adjectives, but on the actual content of the feats themselves. Scourge's feats are basic, and could be achieved by any average Knight, I am not impressed.Fixed, try proving me wrong with reasoning and evidence next time rather than making the same baseless assertions.

Surik lost because of her inferior speed and strength, nothing more can be inferred.Except the most important ones, case in point:http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4115293-2850813668-43c3b.gif

Nyriss on a nexus reduces two non-Force sensitives in "charred and smoking husks". Starkiller on neutral ground totally vaporises three Stormtroopers.

Starkiller > Nyriss tbh.

And I've already proven why Nyriss is an inferior lightsaber duelist, and debunked your own assertions. I can only assumed you overlooked my arguments.

Look again:

...furthermore as one with specialises in the art of Sith sorcery, it is likely that she favoured study of Force abilities over lightsaber combat.

Which makes it equally unlikely she'll be a superior duelist to an individual who has been forged into a martial weapon by one of the greatest lighsaber duellists in mythos.

DarthAnt66

The video-game is not canon and exaggerated material.

ares834

You have proof for both of those claims?

DarthAnt66

Do I need proof to make a logical claim?

Beniboybling

Anything that doesn't contradict or exist purely for gameplay is C-canon.

--Leland Chee, Keeper of the Holocron

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/383263147445854208

Beniboybling

Double post, my bad.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise we where gauging speed based on the fancifulness of the adjectives used to described them. I bow to your superior logic.

/sarcasm.

All above-average Force users are described as moving as a blur, its a text book phrase.

And indeed Drew pratically acknowledges as such, saying that Scourge moves with:

the supernatural speed of the Force.

the blinding speed of the Force

Or rather, with the speed of a Force user. All Force users possess supernatural speed, because they all possess a supernatural power.

His abilities are likewise text book. He moves faster than simple machines. He moves faster than a non-Force sensitive with no physical training.

In future, don't base your arguments on subjective, vague and irrelevant adjectives, but on the actual content of the feats themselves. Scourge's feats are basic, and could be achieved by any average Knight, I am not impressed.
You are contradicting yourself.

At the start, you acknowledge that Lord Scourge is an above-average Force-user. But below, you assert that an average Knight can match Lord Scourge.

So is Lord Scourge an average Force-user or above-average Force-user? Decide on this first.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fixed, try proving me wrong with reasoning and evidence next time rather than making the same baseless assertions.

Surik lost because of her inferior speed and strength, nothing more can be inferred.
Baseless assertions?

You are asserting that Nyriss is not a skilled lightsaber combatant. That she was able to outduel two expert swordsmen by virtue of her superior speed and strength. Your assertion seems to be baseless in-fact:

Whether facing a traitorous fellow Sith or a crowd of Republic soldiers, the Inquisitor fights with unlimited fury to create a storm of destruction. Expertise in conducting Force energies further allows Inquisitors to draw upon the life essence of themselves and others. This energy can be channeled to bolster their powers, harm their foes, and even to reinvigorate their allies. An Inquisitor's skills with a Lightsaber are equally impressive. Often wielding a double-bladed Lightsaber, Inquisitors use quick, guileful, and lethal maneuvers to strike their enemies down with astonishing speed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet

Sith Inquisitors or Sorcerers do not necessarily overlook the importance of honing their talents in the lightsaber combat.

While speed and strength are important determinants of dueling ability in their own right, it is not possible to perform precise strikes with a lightsaber without proper training in lightsaber combat.

In short, factors such as speed, strength and skill determine the effectiveness of a lightsaber combatant.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except the most important ones, case in point:http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4115293-2850813668-43c3b.gif

Nyriss on a nexus reduces two non-Force sensitives in "charred and smoking husks". Starkiller on neutral ground totally vaporises three Stormtroopers.

Starkiller > Nyriss tbh.
More realistic interpretation of that event from the novel:

A dozen open-helmeted men and women in brown combat uniforms-Kota's insurgents, the apprentice presumed-came down the hangar's primary access corridor, sealing the blast door behind them. Baring his teeth, he ran to meet them, eager to take the offensive. Their rifles were no match for the power of the Force. A single, powerful push scattered them like dolls. One he blasted with lightning. A second he choked until all consciousness fled. A third he swept up and pounded against the nearest bulk-head. The rest he dismembered with graceful aggression, ignoring their cries of fear and pain.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Also, that was a normal lightning burst from Nyriss. Her charged attack may have vaporized those guards.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And I've already proven why Nyriss is an inferior lightsaber duelist, and debunked your own assertions. I can only assumed you overlooked my arguments.
No, I have proved you wrong with official information in this matter. Your attempts to lowball Scourge and Nyriss in this debate are being debunked.

While I acknowledge the possibility of Starkiller being fast, strong, and skilled enough to contend with Nyriss, I have yet to see evidence or well-reasoned argument for Starkiller in regards to having relatively superior dueling ability.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Look again:

...furthermore as one with specialises in the art of Sith sorcery, it is likely that she favoured study of Force abilities over lightsaber combat.

Which makes it equally unlikely she'll be a superior duelist to an individual who has been forged into a martial weapon by one of the greatest lighsaber duellists in mythos.
Look again:

Whether facing a traitorous fellow Sith or a crowd of Republic soldiers, the Inquisitor fights with unlimited fury to create a storm of destruction. Expertise in conducting Force energies further allows Inquisitors to draw upon the life essence of themselves and others. This energy can be channeled to bolster their powers, harm their foes, and even to reinvigorate their allies. An Inquisitor's skills with a Lightsaber are equally impressive. Often wielding a double-bladed Lightsaber, Inquisitors use quick, guileful, and lethal maneuvers to strike their enemies down with astonishing speed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anything that doesn't contradict or exist purely for gameplay is C-canon.

--Leland Chee, Keeper of the Holocron

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/383263147445854208
It contradicts the novel by having a different account on what happened in that situation.

Nice find, though (seen it before - forgot about it).

Nephthys

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anything that doesn't contradict or exist purely for gameplay is C-canon.

--Leland Chee, Keeper of the Holocron

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/383263147445854208

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol. Mad as a hatter.

It pretty much is. You have no clue what happened in those several thousand years, you have no claim to knowledge. Neither of us can say jack shit about authorial intention so that's an appeal to indeed jack and shit.

Well Ok, I'll email Drew.

I mean he's already confirmed that the SWTOR(E) estimation on Sith Numbers aren't accurate, so I'm sure he'll confirm that DK is a nexus.

carthage

It states It's a nexus on the opening pages of the Revan novel iirc in Chapter 1

Nephthys

Originally posted by Selenial
Well Ok, I'll email Drew.

I mean he's already confirmed that the SWTOR(E) estimation on Sith Numbers aren't accurate, so I'm sure he'll confirm that DK is a nexus.

He'll just say that his opinions are unofficial. Also leave him alone, jesus. Bothering authors just to win arguments is really lame.

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
He'll just say that his opinions are unofficial. Also leave him alone, jesus. Bothering authors just to win arguments is really lame.

Someone's scared now roll eyes (sarcastic)

I've emailed him twice in the past 2 years, I'm not Ant. And he didn't actually say his opinions were unofficial, I asked him about the numbers because the SWTOR(E) seemed overblown and pretty abnormal, and he estimated there were a few thousand Sith across the galaxy....

Nephthys

Originally posted by Selenial
Someone's scared now roll eyes (sarcastic)

Selenial

Originally posted by carthage
It states It's a nexus on the opening pages of the Revan novel iirc in Chapter 1

"Here the darkness reigns eternal" could be, but might refer to literal light levels.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It contradicts the novel by having a different account on what happened in that situation.

Nice find, though (seen it before - forgot about it). Mmm but cut content from say KOTOR II, contradicts the game proper, and yet we still regard it with value.

When it comes to displays in the Force, I feel contradictions of this kind are still valid in regards to what they are capable of, if they found themselves in that situation, even if they never actually did.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Selenial
Well Ok, I'll email Drew.

I mean he's already confirmed that the SWTOR(E) estimation on Sith Numbers aren't accurate, so I'm sure he'll confirm that DK is a nexus. The planet is bristling with the energy of the dark side...

--Dromund Kaas, Old Republic HoloNet

I assumed Neph was just being pedantic, as I've already provided this quote.

Nephthys

I was purely pointing out that those two specific quotes don't have much relevance for a planet 3500 years ago, yes. Hence why I didn't contradict the first quote.

ares834

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Do I need proof to make a logical claim?

It's not logical at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

Cool. So it's as canon as SWTOR. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
Well Ok, I'll email Drew.

I mean he's already confirmed that the SWTOR(E) estimation on Sith Numbers aren't accurate, so I'm sure he'll confirm that DK is a nexus.
SWTOR(E) contains information that have been put together by several authors and approved by LucasArts for publication.

Mr. Kayphyshn had left BioWare years ago and his unofficial opinion doesn't holds more weightage then the official information. People generally consider official information as factual and consult authors on the matters that are poorly described at official capacity .

The Empire contained millions of Force-sensitives at a time. Training in the ways of the dark side was compulsory for all Force-sensitives. Millions would start from Sith Academies but the numbers would continue to reduce at the higher echelons of power. At the top, Darths always remained in short numbers because becoming one was extremely difficult and many would perish during training, competition, and politics. And the vicious cycle would repeat non-stop.

Nephthys

Originally posted by ares834
It's not logical at all.

Cool. So it's as canon as SWTOR. thumb up

Technically yes, but in past-canon-wise not really since Swtor isn't as bonkers exaggerated as TFU was.

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
Technically yes, but in past-canon-wise not really since Swtor isn't as bonkers exaggerated as TFU was.

He says, while claiming there's 500x as many force users in the TOR era than any other.

Nephthys

It's not my fault every other era is retarded.

Selenial

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not my fault every other era is retarded.

Saving for future bias debates...

Nephthys

10,000 Jedi for the whole galaxy will never not be dumb, iiregardless of era.

FreshestSlice

How do you misspell a misspelling?

Nephthys

I'm not gonna lie, it ain't easy.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are contradicting yourself.

At the start, you acknowledge that Lord Scourge is an above-average Force-user. But below, you assert that an average Knight can match Lord Scourge.

So is Lord Scourge an average Force-user or above-average Force-user? Decide on this first.Lol, OK. Let's say they are Kanan Jarrus level feats.

What is important though, its that they are unimpressive, and Nyriss notably surpassing them does not make her faster than Starkiller by any stretch.
No I'm not, I'm asserting that Nyriss did not defeat Scourge and the Exile by virtue of her superior skill, hence she is not a superior duelist to either Scourge or the Exile.

This is self evident from the content, which demonstrates her overwhelming her opponents through strength and speed alone, skill had very little to do with it.Even if the events didn't occur in that way in the novel, its still a valid indication of what Starkiller is capable of.

On top of that Nyriss had her ass handed to her by Revan in a contest of raw Force power, whereas in a similar engagement, Galen Marek was able to almost overwhelm Darth Sidious.

Go figure.All you have proven is that Nyriss possesses skill, not that she possesses superior skill to Starkiller.

Even if Nyriss did not neglect her abilities, by merit of being an Inquisitor whose focus it is made clear is in Sith sorcery and other aspects of the Force, she is simply unlikely to be trained to as high a standard as Vader's personal assassin, who on top of personal training, used PROXY to test his abilities against some of the greatest duelists in mythos.

Observe:
Whatever tutelage Nyriss received would be decidedly inferior.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, OK. Let's say they are Kanan Jarrus level feats.
Thanks for the joke.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What is important though, its that they are unimpressive, and Nyriss notably surpassing them does not make her faster than Starkiller by any stretch.
Here is a comparison of dueling ability of Lord Scourge and Starkiller:-

Starkiller:

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2 (Novelization)

Scourge:

Instead he performed a complex routine of drills designed to hone his reflexes, all while wearing his heavy armor. His crimson blade hummed as he cycled through the aggressive thrusts and cuts of Juyo, the seventh form of lightsaber combat. The weapon moved so fast that it was nothing but a blur, but each strike was precise and controlled.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Do you notice any disparity in the capabilities of the two? It seems that Scourge and Starkiller are comparable in the matters of speed and dueling ability. Therefore, the possibility of Nyriss being faster then Starkiller cannot be ruled out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No I'm not, I'm asserting that Nyriss did not defeat Scourge and the Exile by virtue of her superior skill, hence she is not a superior duelist to either Scourge or the Exile.

This is self evident from the content, which demonstrates her overwhelming her opponents through strength and speed alone, skill had very little to do with it.
This description explains Nyriss' performance:

Through years of disciplined training and meditation, the Jedi Knight hones body and mind into perfect harmony. Combining the foresight of the Force with unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision, the Knight turns combat into an art form, gracefully executing acrobatic feats in tandem with elegant lightsaber tactics.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic (Holonet)

Nyriss outdueled both Scourge and Meetra with combination of her ferocity, skill, speed, and strength.

Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

The blue highlighted part represents skill, IMO.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Even if the events didn't occur in that way in the novel, its still a valid indication of what Starkiller is capable of.
The animation likely represents a charged attack of Starkiller.

Nyriss can likely achieve similar magnitude of potency against normal beings with her charged attacks.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On top of that Nyriss had her ass handed to her by Revan in a contest of raw Force power, whereas in a similar engagement, Galen Marek was able to almost overwhelm Darth Sidious.

Go figure.
Here:

Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Go figure.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
All you have proven is that Nyriss possesses skill, not that she possesses superior skill to Starkiller.
See above

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Even if Nyriss did not neglect her abilities, by merit of being an Inquisitor whose focus it is made clear is in Sith sorcery and other aspects of the Force, she is simply unlikely to be trained to as high a standard as Vader's personal assassin, who on top of personal training, used PROXY to test his abilities against some of the greatest duelists in mythos.
Force-users do not necessarily follow a class to the textbook level throughout their lives. Yes, Sith Inquisitors heavily concentrate on the matters of manipulating the Force but they can choose to hone their talents in lightsaber combat as well. Therefore:

Whether facing a traitorous fellow Sith or a crowd of Republic soldiers, the Inquisitor fights with unlimited fury to create a storm of destruction. Expertise in conducting Force energies further allows Inquisitors to draw upon the life essence of themselves and others. This energy can be channeled to bolster their powers, harm their foes, and even to reinvigorate their allies. An Inquisitor's skills with a Lightsaber are equally impressive. Often wielding a double-bladed Lightsaber, Inquisitors use quick, guileful, and lethal maneuvers to strike their enemies down with astonishing speed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic (Holonet)

ANALOGY: Yoda is a Jedi Consular and you are aware of his dueling ability.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Observe:

Whatever tutelage Nyriss received would be decidedly inferior.
It's "all but."

Scourge and Starkiller are comparable in dueling ability. In-fact, Scourge's skills with a lightsaber are honed to perfection.

And yet, Nyriss outdueled Scourge.

Do the math.