Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

All these sexy ladies face off in a triple threat match, everyone is in their prime. Battle takes place Yavin IV. (Yavin doesn't amp anyone).

Round 1: Normal battle.
Round 2: Everyone is bloodlusted.

Most likely Surik

2 Leneer kills Ventress with the force and then loses to Surik

Leneer

I'd say Ventress overall. Leneer has an edge in Force due to Versatility but idk.

Ventress, though Leneer has a very real chance in Round 2.

Ventress may or may not be the most skilled duelist here but I think Surik takes the Force edge over both.

Aryn Leener in both rounds. Though Meetra Surik might prove to be a challenge.

Asajj Ventress is outgunned in this contest.

The Exile's level of skill seems to fluctuate here tbh

Well, under normal circumstances I'd assume this to be the current version of Meetra Surik who loses to either decisively. She's only slightly worse than Aryn as a swordsman, if at all, and faster, but she's considerably inferior in the Force. And her only edge over Ventress is speed - she's behind in all other categories.

Ventress is the most skilled, Aryn is the most powerful. The bloodlust makes Aryn's edge more apparent, so she definitely has a solid chance of winning in round 2, but in round 1, Ventress outskills her.

One bad showing does not over-write every other feat of said character, especially when very valid reasons arise for why said showing occurred.

Neither Aryn Leneer nor Asajj Ventress could accomplish what Meetra Surik did at the Trayus Academy.

If this was KotOR II Exile, I'd place her above the others, but the simple matter of fact is that Karpyshyn omitted much of her characteristics and many of her abilities in the novel and just made her a fairly fast and skilful Jedi (but an average one nonetheless).

I'm aware of all her showings, but as I said, if this is Meetra Surik from Revan, she loses. KotOR II Exile is very versatile, adaptable, skilful and powerful. She has the benefit of causing effects with just her presence alone. So she could beat either.

Your problem is your need to differentiate between the two, they are halves of a whole and her entire feats must be applied for objective debate. Her Revan appearance actually solidified her place in the mythos. Her defeat on a Dark Side nexus against a Dark Councillor of great prestige because of a speed disadvantage is hardly a sign that she is 'average'.

I will never fail to be baffled by this mentality that Revan was extremely powerful(he was) and yet the likes of Traya, Malak, Atris, Surik, etc... are all weaksauce.

The Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide states abundantly, as Ant has posted repeatedly, that the Jedi Order of the era were the most experienced and combat-tested of any iteration. Not to mention direct statements that Revan and Malak's Sith Empire was filled with Masters of the Dark Side and the Triumvirate were the strongest of those.

Ventress > Leneer > Surik

@AncientPower - Not at all - she was clearly depowered in the novel, having lost her status as a Wound in the Force and seemingly losing her Force Bonds, which she uses to empower herself. Or at least that's the reasoning I use to try and explain why she's noticeably inferior to her game incarnation. And try to read my post, because I never said she was an average individual in respects to power or skill, but that she became an average Jedi (ie. no special characteristics or trademarks), where she was once notable for having numerous unique characteristics among Jedi.

The novel makes it clear she's similar to Scourge, who really shouldn't be anywhere near her given her Malachor run. As for Nyriss, Force Speed relates to Force power and is generally related to skill (which also played a factor in the fight). That, and she bluntly overpowered Surik with the Force, despite the fact that both Traya and Sion foresee that Surik becomes more powerful than Traya in the future. And yet she displays no signs of notable Force power in the novel - her sensory powers, her ability to form Bonds, her "aptitude for severing another's connection from the Force", as the KotOR Campaign Guide describes it, are all non-existent in the novel.

I'm aware of everything you claimed, which doesn't make any difference to the fact that Karpyshyn's writing of her simply conflicted with her in-game portrayal in a number of ways. I'm not interested in detailing that here, but the point is that he neglected a number of powers and traits. Further proof of his lack of research is based on the fact that he writes Mandalorian Wars Revan in as more powerful than Nihilus, Traya, etc. which is pretty laughable.

And if you think that I think Meetra is weaksauce in comparison to Revan, then you really shouldn't be discussing Surik with me. For one, I made her respect thread, but additionally, I hold her on par with Revan in sheer prowess with a lightsaber, which as far as I know, is a virtually unsupported notion among others. I rate her very highly. The same goes with Traya and Atris, whom few others (or Atris, at least) rank highly. So I'd suggest that you stop implying that I hold her in little regard or that I'm unaware of her combative abilities - because I can assure you that I have her higher than 90% of this board at the very least.

But as I said, Meetra Surik's novelized incarnation simply does not reflect her true combative potential. Drew loves to write about form switching and mastery (which he mentions for Scourge in Revan), yet he neglects to mention it for a master of all seven forms? He also neglected her mastery of the Force forms, and, as I said, her sensory powers, talents in Sever Force, ability to form strong Force Bonds quickly (now, this is tied somewhat to her Wound in the Force status, which was gone by the Revan novel, but Surik was still famous for her Bonds before becoming a Wound in the Force).

This is why I specifically mentioned "current" Surik losing to them, but Prime Surik (ie. KotOR II) would beat either.

Drew Karpyshyn's novel cannot just over-write what we know is fact from numerous sources concerning her already established prowess. This problem arises repeatedly in the NJO era, Jaina Solo being a hilariously bad example of lazy author research. Yet we don't claim Jaina can't fly just because Traviss was and is an imbecile.

Also my supplementary comments was a general view of fan interpretations, not directed at you alone. Malak for example has been shat on endlessly simply because he isn't Revan, as has every other KOTOR character. KOTOR is not the only era in which the fanbase has done this without reason.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ventress may or may not be the most skilled duelist here but I think Surik takes the Force edge over both.

Why the Force edge? Meetra lacks force feats.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Her Revan appearance actually solidified her place in the mythos. Her defeat on a Dark Side nexus against a Dark Councillor of great prestige because of a speed disadvantage is hardly a sign that she is 'average'.

I can't remember, but whats the way you get around the fact that Malachor as a nexus is far superior to Kaas?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Drew Karpyshyn's novel cannot just over-write what we know is fact from numerous sources concerning her already established prowess. This problem arises repeatedly in the NJO era, Jaina Solo being a hilariously bad example of lazy author research. Yet we don't claim Jaina can't fly just because Traviss was and is an imbecile.

Oh man, please tell me more. Does she pwned by a Mando in a dogfight or something? http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-allears.gif

I think AP and SunRazer are actually agreeing on everything, it's confusing me.

The difference between the two is that SunRazer acknowledges that Revan!Surik is weaker than Malachhor!Exile and thus should be treated as a different entity in debates, to which I agree.

The problem I have is everyone decides to use Revan!Surik just to shit on her. When you hear Kenobi you don't thknk ANH just because it's the latest we've seen him. When you see Ventress you don't assume the dark Jedi warlord of Rattatak, so why assume it's the weakest version of Surik?

On that basis, the exile wins.

The issue for me is that nothing in the novel points to how Surik is so much weaker than she was in the game. Nothing points to having declined significantly in power, so outside of fan theories we can't separate the two that easily.

Also, this is Surik instead of the Exile.

If it was KotOR II Meetra/Exile would that be a better fight?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why the Force edge? Meetra lacks force feats.

Meetra does not lack Force feats, we know what her powers are and they are better than anything Leneer or Ventress has displayed, Ventress can TK her all she likes but Surik can cut her off from the Force.

I can't remember, but whats the way you get around the fact that Malachor as a nexus is far superior to Kaas?

Meetra was a symptom of Malachor V and only felt sick on the planet whereas according to the lore almost every other single Jedi immediately turned to the Dark Side. Evidently Surik does not display any signs of her symptom after that point, I would say much as she was immune to Nihilus and Traya's Force Drain variant, she was also largely resistant to Malachor's effects.

Oh man, please tell me more. Does she pwned by a Mando in a dogfight or something? http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-allears.gif

No she asks a Mandalorian how to fly a ship despite being an ace pilot with near a decade's experience, Corran Horn is another good one.

Joker, what do you mean by blood lusted? Usually it means no holding back, out for the kill, which is the mindset I always assume the character to be in unless said otherwise.

Maybe the better question is, what do you mean by normal battle?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Joker, what do you mean by blood lusted? Usually it means no holding back, out for the kill, which is the mindset I always assume the character to be in unless said otherwise.

Maybe the better question is, what do you mean by normal battle? Normal battle being like a 'normal' mindset, like, determined and focused. Bloodlusted is like when Dooku betrayed Ventress -- completely pissed and filled with rage. That's what I had in mind.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra does not lack Force feats, we know what her powers are and they are better than anything Leneer or Ventress has displayed, Ventress can TK her all she likes but Surik can cut her off from the Force.



Meetra was a symptom of Malachor V and only felt sick on the planet whereas according to the lore almost every other single Jedi immediately turned to the Dark Side. Evidently Surik does not display any signs of her symptom after that point, I would say much as she was immune to Nihilus and Traya's Force Drain variant, she was also largely resistant to Malachor's effects.



No she asks a Mandalorian how to fly a ship despite being an ace pilot with near a decade's experience, Corran Horn is another good one.

Huh? I'm pretty sure she's never performed a Force feat on Leneer and Ventress' level. Force Sever isn't a feat, thats a technique. Which I doubt will work on someone as powerful as Ventress considering Surik has no feats with willingly using it. Not that I'm arguing with you, your comment was just confusing.

Which doesn't matter with regards to the Sith on the planet? Traya was pretty explicitly tapping deeply into Malachor and obviously they'd have no problems resisting the darkside after being turned, lol. They'd probably get their jollies from hearing all the screams of the deceased tbh.

Oh man, so dumb. Travis was such a dipshit.

She can analyse a group of mercenaries and kill a mercenary with the kinetic force of her telekinesis in half a second. She maintained stamina through the Force to trash the most elite Sith in the Triumvirate on Malachor whilst physically sick. Resisting Nathema's attempts to rip her apart for so long is yet more evidence that she has extreme showings in Force assisted physical ability, which neither of her opponents here have compared to.

This is a bloodlusted battle and the entire point is that they hold nothing back, a Sever Force attack is certainly plausible against the less powerful Ventress.

She can defeat multiple Imperial Guardsmen, whom were in direct contact with Vitiate making them immune to Revan's own Force power through pure saber skill in a portion of a battle that wasn't a minute long.

Nathema was trying to rip her body apart? I thought that was a mental thing?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/14/147508/4350097-av+ability+force+choke+%284%29.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/14/147508/4350108-av+ability+force+choke+%283%29.gif

I feel like posting these.

If this is Novel Meetra Aryn wins round 2, they both lose round 1 to Asajj though

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Normal battle being like a 'normal' mindset, like, determined and focused. Bloodlusted is like when Dooku betrayed Ventress -- completely pissed and filled with rage. That's what I had in mind.


That's what I thought you meant, but then I wasn't sure considering she nearly choked out both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time despite their efforts to break free, which is pretty much over the top and beyond these two. Of course, considering they would be in a similar rage, whereas Anakin and Kenobi were not, I doubt she'd do the same to these two. However, even considering Skywalker's and Kenobi's own feats under normal circumstances, I'm not sure the other two would be capable of overpowering them the way Ventress did or even close, so I'd give this to Ventress for sure.

Leneer did briefly hold her own against a rage filled Malgus, but wasn't she also fighting with rage at the time?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's what I thought you meant, but then I wasn't sure considering she nearly choked out both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time despite their efforts to break free, which is pretty much over the top and beyond these two. Of course, considering they would be in a similar rage, whereas Anakin and Kenobi were not, I doubt she'd do the same to these two. However, even considering Skywalker's and Kenobi's own feats under normal circumstances, I'm not sure the other two would be capable of overpowering them the way Ventress did or even close, so I'd give this to Ventress for sure.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Leneer did briefly hold her own against a rage filled Malgus, but wasn't she also fighting with rage at the time? I believe so.

@SunRazer How is Meetra faster?


@Ap She never did that voluntarily, it was brought on by Malachors echo IIRC. If I'm wrong please correct me. I'm going by the game here.

It is stated Vima Sunrider taught her to master her natural affinity for the technique so as to control it because of how dangerous she was, she definitely knows how to weild it willingly. In a bloodlusted battle Meetra could certainly cut her opponents off from the Force, perhaps even drain them.

@DMB, it was a mix of both.

I'm thinking Metra wins round 1, if it's KoTOR incarnate, but Revan I'm thinking maybe Ventress(?)

For round 2 it definitely comes down to either Ventress or Leneer. I'm thinking maybe Leneer if she can draw on the emotions she felt when her master got killed, then she is the definite winner, plus she's a Force Empath so she can draw on her feelings from that more than most can from a similar experience.

@FatedXtasy - Because, even when weakened by a dark side nexus, she kills a pair of Imperial Guard members in only a few seconds.

And yes, she can use Sever Force against others - KotORCG makes it clear that she has talents for severing another's connection to the Force.