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Decide who, between peak Vader and peak Revan, is better in each of the listed categories:

1. Strenght
2. Speed
3. Stamina
4. Lightsaber prowess
5. TK
6. Esoteric force powers
7. Overall

Vader in all

Revan for esoteric, dunno about stamina.

Vader takes the rest to varying degrees.

1. Vader
2. Toss up
3. Vader
4. Vader
5. Vader
6. Revan
7. Vader

Vader



Arguably Revan



Vader



Vader



Vader



Revan



Arguable.

1. Vader
2. Leaning Vader
3. Vader
4. Vader
5. Revan
6. Revan
7. Revan

1. Vader
2. Revan
3. Revan
4. Vader
5. Revan
6. Revan
7. Revan

I question 6. In Jedi vs Sith, Palpatine put so much emphasis on what he did keep secret from Vader. With such emphasis, the implication to me seemed that he shared much with Vader, other than things that could be used against him. Even Sidious' dark side adepts knew drain and various sorts of alchemy. Jerec gained a whole bunch of rare techniques from the limited access of secrets which Palpatine allowed him. Logically, Vader, being the direct apprentice, should know far more than any adept, hence the large amount of jealousy towards Vader.

Palpatine had the largest collection of knowledge than any being within the mythos, and Vader had access to a lot of it.

Vader > Revan in everything else, though.

@S66: You just went full Bantha man.

S66 makes a convincing argument.

I lean to Vader as being overall better.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@S66: You just went full Bantha man.


The creature or the member?

Originally posted by Stigma
S66 makes a convincing argument.
Joking or naw?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The creature or the member?
Either works with the logic you presented.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Either works with the logic you presented.


You just let me know when you're Revan vs Yoda is done. I'll read that for a good laugh.

Is there any verifiable way to show Vader knows more esoteric techniques? Because I call bullshit, Vader is no sorcerer and doesn't do rituals or alchemy and hasn't utilised the Force in the subtle ways that Revan has.

He doesn't even have lightning for christsakes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is there any verifiable way to show Vader knows more esoteric techniques? Because I call bullshit, Vader is no sorcerer and doesn't do rituals or alchemy has hasn't utilised the Force in the subtle ways that Revan has.

He doesn't even have lightning for christsakes.
Revan knows a planet-sized full of ancient Sith secrets exclusive to him alone (Malachor) and knew more rituals and sorcery then Bane could comprehend.

Vader isn't even coming close.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You just let me know when you're Revan vs Yoda is done. I'll read that for a good laugh.
I'll make sure to have specific mentions to you.

I know. Revan also has superior telepathy and can utilise both sides of the Force in equal measure and do his spazzy explosion thing.

Plus like, the Thought Bomb, his Ruusan fire ritual, and his Yavin IV ritual.

And Revan got Force Teleportation and shit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He doesn't even have lightning for christsakes.




All this time I thought Ant was your apprentice, not the other way around.

Go rest, Neph.

Quick reminder of the guy who is laughing at Neph:
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I've read every single respect thread of his except the one made by you (lol).

Ventress wins.

Begone.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Funny, considering I'm the only one who ever made a Revan Respect Thread.

How embarrassing. This is going on my profile.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is there any verifiable way to show Vader knows more esoteric techniques? Because I call bullshit, Vader is no sorcerer and doesn't do rituals or alchemy and hasn't utilised the Force in the subtle ways that Revan has.

He doesn't even have lightning for christsakes.

He actually has various esoteric powers, though not as much as Revan. Hell, I'd consider Kinetite more esoteric than lightning, lol.

1. Vader.
2. Revan
3. Vader.
4. Vader
5. Vader
6. Revan
7. Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plus like, the Thought Bomb, his Ruusan fire ritual, and his Yavin IV ritual.

And Revan got Force Teleportation and shit.

I totally forgot about teleportation. That's definitely a point in his favor. He can also deepen his force connection through performing practical work and knows alot about force bonds and force wounds and how to corrupt Jedi in subtle and overt ways. Revan's knowledge and understanding vastly outweighs that of a meathead like Vader.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He actually has various esoteric powers, though not as much as Revan. Hell, I'd consider Kinetite more esoteric than lightning, lol.

So would I, I was just pointing out that even some basic powers were beyond him. Though isn't Kinetite basically focused TK?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He actually has various esoteric powers, though not as much as Revan. Hell, I'd consider Kinetite more esoteric than lightning, lol.

Probably the most esoteric ability I've seen Vader use was when he turned a Stormtrooper to ash using some unspecified power.

How is Revan faster than Vader? Lol. His best speed feat was dodging blaster bolts in the novel, Vader has dodged ATT fire in one of the newer comics, blitzed Jedi, and moved fast enough to appear to teleport/appear out of thin air.

I don't recall anything from Revan in speed being amazing, at least nothing like dodging water droplets like Darth Bane

Because Vader is slower than X, Y, and Z fodder Jedi on a daily basis.

I remember a time Revan's combat feats weren't that far above Ventress's, yet with logic and reason most of us placed him on Dooku's level. Suddenly the same logic is applied to Vader in a certain category and TOR fans are mad.

In that case, Dooku crushes Revan in a pretty good fight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because Vader is slower than X, Y, and Z fodder Jedi on a daily basis.

So you have no superior feats for Revan being faster. Ok thanks.

@S66: No, that time was literally because you shitheads knew jack shit about Revan.

Most of the members adapted, you didn't. Admit your disgracehood and move on.

Originally posted by carthage
So you have no superior feats for Revan being faster. Ok thanks.
Revan keeping up with the coalition strike force, fighting Vitiate in a "few seconds", and dodging those torrent of blaster fire from a Mandalorian army. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Live Your Life
And Vader blitzed Jedi that can casually deflect and evade blaster fire.
The feat was Revan dodging and evading blasterfire from a Mandalorian army three times larger than Clan Ordo.

Plus the Mandalorian war droids in the air, possibly. Those guys have the firepower to break the hulls of star destroyers.

Vader has kept up with strike forces while barely accustomed to his suit.

If we are suddenly basing everything on feats. Revan is barely above Ventress, and gets tooled by Vader or Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I remember a time Revan's combat feats weren't that far above Ventress's, yet with logic and reason most of us placed him on Dooku's level. Suddenly the same logic is applied to Vader in a certain category and TOR fans are mad.

In that case, Dooku crushes Revan in a pretty good fight.

Like Ant said, that was due to a lack of feats and info for Revan. We know alot about Vader, more than most other characters and he's never been someone who uses esoteric techniques. Revan meanwhile has a massive and broad knowledge of the Force.

And sorry, but your argument just wasn't that convincing. Maybe if you'd posted what exactly this implication that you mentioned was I'd feel more compelled to give Vader the benefit of the doubt. As of now, no.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader has kept up with strike forces while barely accustomed to his suit.

If we are suddenly basing everything on feats. Revan is barely above Ventress, and gets tooled by Vader or Dooku.

Shitty strike teams of randoms.

Lmao, Revan has way better feats than Ventress. Get lost S66.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader has kept up with strike forces while barely accustomed to his suit.

If we are suddenly basing everything on feats. Revan is barely above Ventress, and gets tooled by Vader or Dooku.
Not a strike team comparable to the second Emperor's Wrath, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, Theron Shan, Shae Vizla and Jakarro.

Please stop talking. All you are doing is embarrassing yourself. You admitted you don't even know Revan's feats, this is sad... really.

Only after you admit that's totally not a word.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Only after you admit that's totally not a word.
I made it up to symbolize that S66 was such a disgrace new words had to be formed in order to describe him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like Ant said, that was due to a lack of feats and info for Revan.


If you can't see the double standard in this statement then you really should rest.

I mean, that same excuse can be applied to Vader.

I just said it's questionable then applied my reasons, and you guys get riled up. Why?

Revan outpassing basilisks, hordes of battle droids, and being faster than an echani champion that's defeated more Jedi than most of the PT Dark Jedi have ever faced is Ventress-level? You can do better.

We place TOR characters on Dooku's level because of lack of feats and info.

LMAO!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If you can't see the double standard in this statement then you really should rest.

I mean, that same excuse can be applied to Vader.

I just said it's questionable then applied my reasons, and you guys get riled up. Why?

Vader is a more explored character than 99% of the mythos dude.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Revan outpassing basilisk, hordes of battle droids, and being faster than an echani champion that's defeated more Jedi than most of the PT Dark Jedi have ever faced is Ventress-level? You can do better.


Wow, fighting hordes of battle droids is something Ahsoka and plenty of random PT jedi did on a daily. Ventress has defeated a jedi who can blitz magnaguards, and considering their reaction speed, I'm seeing where you draw such a conclusion based on that alone. Not to mention fighting off and escaping both Kenobi and Skywalker. I can go on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader is a more explored character than 99% of the mythos dude.


Oh?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh?

IKR? It was news to me as well.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Wow, fighting hordes of battle droids is something Ahsoka and plenty of random PT jedi did on a daily.
Lulz. Wow. Comparing Mark I Battle droids to the armies of the Star Forge. That's actually pretty disgusting. And I say that as someone who generally hates most of the material from TOR.

Blitzing A droid is impressive now?

Well just go on to ignore everything else I said then.

Because Revan wouldn't be able to fight off Obi-Wan and Anakin during TCW?

1. Vader
2. Depend of the sources
3. Vader probably, Revan against lightning
4. Vader probably
5. Vader comfortably
6. Revan
7. Vader

Fisto outpaced and blitzed Grievous's personal magnaguards, and while their reaction speed may have been exaggerated, they are still built with speed to match jedi, and that's just the average magnaguard, let alone Grievous' personal body guards. Fisto has also moved so fast that his speed surprised Obi Wan, who has by that time witnessed the speed of Maul, who is one of the fastest and most skilled fighters in the mythos barring the top dogs.

The fact that Ventress matched him and pierced his guard, is more impressive than what you've listed for Revan.

Perhaps Revan could fight them off simultaneously, but that burden of proof is not on me. I can also go into detail about Kenobi and Skywalkers feats, but I'm not at a lap top and don't feel like writing it all out. I'm also missing some of Fisto's feats. But I assure you, you'd need more than that to assume Revan can give them both a challenge.

If you're hard pressed to prove Revan's superiority over Ventress on feats alone. What hope is there that he'd stand a chance against Dooku?

Open a thread, and I'll happily get to it when I can.

Not to mention a lot of Revan's feats need more context but there again, that's where the double standard is showing.

Neph, by your logic, Vader know little of esoteric abilities when my post implies otherwise, unless you think the adepts knew more than he based on what Vader hasn't shown, but that line of logic applies to Revan. He doesn't get off the hook because he's not as explored.

Sidious66, curious question: Why are you honestly debating Revan when you haven't read my respect thread?

I call total bullshit you even know a 1/10th of his feats, so your entire tantrum here is just the ultimate display of arrogance.

That's actually a good point that Sidious 66 brought up regarding the adepts knowledge and how Vader>>Them. Never thought of that. Too bad most sources depict Vader just using raw power rather than any Sith spell.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fisto outpaced and blitzed Grievous's personal magnaguards, and while their reaction speed may have been exaggerated, they are still built with speed to match jedi, and that's just the average magnaguard, let alone Grievous' personal body guards. Fisto has also moved so fast that his speed surprised Obi Wan, who has by that time witnessed the speed of Maul, who is one of the fastest and most skilled fighters in the mythos barring the top dogs.

Ashoka can fight magnaguards and Grievous. The droids on the Star Forge aren't built to match Jedi. They are built to outpace, outpower, and kill them.

It's actually pretty retarded to claim Ventress getting the up on Fisto is comparable to taking down multiple giant, assault droids, armies, and scores of the finest warriors in the galaxy.

I don't need a list of feats for Obi-Wan or Anakin. This Team struggles with Dooku. Even if that weren't true, they have both defeated Ventress several times solo, Obi-Wan very recently.

Revan's superior battle record, precog, TK, and diversity is his hope that he could stand a chance to Dooku. It's not like Ventress stands a chance on her own anyway, as we've seen several times.

Way to deflect from the actual topic. I'm happy with discussing Revan in the thread already made for him and Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sidious66, curious question: Why are you honestly debating Revan when you haven't read my respect thread?

I call total bullshit you even know a 1/10th of his feats, so your entire tantrum here is just the ultimate display of arrogance.


All I need to know is Revan's best feats in order to know where he stands. Again, your respect thread isn't a requirement for that. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

I'm not the one throwing the tantrum here. I made a reasonable assertion regarding Vader's knowledge of esoteric techniques, which wasn't even a conclusive one on my part, hence the word "questionable," and it riled everyone up and, again, exposed heavy double standards. If we are going to take that route, then based on showings alone, I can make a good case of Ventress being a challenge to Revan, and even has a chance. If it's arguable, then there's no hope of him being Dooku tier. I'm taking this as an opportunity to show you guys how petty you are when it comes to another character from the PT era. So which route are we to take?

This was probably a waste of time to text all of this out, as I doubt you still know where I'm coming from. However, Neph does, which makes it worse on his part, and its the reason he attempts to challenge me then backs away so quickly, because he sees that his usage of double standards are strongly notceable.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
All I need to know is Revan's best feats in order to know where he stands.
That's the issue - you don't.

Its actually laziness and apathy.

I find this thread interesting. Go on.

1. Vader
2. Vader
3. Vader
4. Vader
5. Vader
6. Revan
7. Revan

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Ashoka can fight magnaguards and Grievous. The droids on the Star Forge aren't built to match Jedi. They are built to outpace, outpower, and kill them.

It's actually pretty retarded to claim Ventress getting the up on Fisto is comparable to taking down multiple giant, assault droids, armies, and scores of the finest warriors in the galaxy.

I don't need a list of feats for Obi-Wan or Anakin. This Team struggles with Dooku. Even if that weren't true, they have both defeated Ventress several times solo, Obi-Wan very recently.

Revan's superior battle record, precog, TK, and diversity is his hope that he could stand a chance to Dooku. It's not like Ventress stands a chance on her own anyway, as we've seen several times.

Way to deflect from the actual topic. I'm happy with discussing Revan in the thread already made for him and Vader.


It's pretty retarded that you're using Ahsoka to lowball, and to ignore Fisto's feats, and suggest beating droids built to fight off weak jedi (your own admission of the jedi in that era) is better than beating Fisto when he's beat magnaguards who can react to jedi in the prime of it's order, and have been stated to have lightspeed (maybe it was fraction of lightspeed) reaction speed. Other than claiming the SF forces are better, do you have anything to show that they are faster than magnaguards? I can bust out with a bunch of highly detailed feats as opposed to ones that only suggest a force user is above average.

I'm referring to Revan before he got his new feat of knocking down a group of jedi with a gust of wind, which isn't much above Savage, BTW, since most put him above Dooku before that time. What TK feats does he have that are above Ventress, let alone the guy who can ragdoll Ventress. The best you can give me is a game mechanic feat, which lacks context other than us knowing it happened.

You're struggling to prove superiority over Ventress, and that's against me throwing out feat off the top of my head, and not even getting into it like I would be able to on a laptop and more research. Bringing up Ahsoka is a noticeable sign of the struggle. My point here is, if you're having trouble with Ventress, how on earth do you expect him to be on par with Dooku--feats only?

Temp - this is your champion?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is there any verifiable way to show Vader knows more esoteric techniques? Because I call bullshit, Vader is no sorcerer and doesn't do rituals or alchemy and hasn't utilised the Force in the subtle ways that Revan has.

He doesn't even have lightning for christsakes.


He does know how to counter the powers of the Dark Reaper excellent

I agree with S66 in regards to the implications of Vader's advanced force knowledge. Basing his esoteric prowess solely on what he's shown is ludicrous, as then it can be said that Vitiate is relatively ignorant compared to the likes of Exar Kun, who's shown quite a greater variety of powers than Vitiate. That said, Revan still has the edge in esoteric knowledge and application.

The motion Revan only has an "edge" in esoteric knowledge over Vader disturbs me, Skillz.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's pretty retarded that you're using Ahsoka to lowball, and to ignore Fisto's feats, and suggest beating droids built to fight off weak jedi (your own admission of the jedi in that era) is better than beating Fisto when he's beat magnaguards who can react to jedi in the prime of it's order, and have been stated to have lightspeed (maybe it was fraction of lightspeed) reaction speed.

Was near lightspeed the reactions.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The motion Revan only has an "edge" in esoteric knowledge over Vader disturbs me, Skillz.

Palpatine>Malachor+Vitiate+Lehon+Dread Masters in knowledge tbh

It's odd that Freshest is accusing me of deflecting the topic. I don't see anything in that last post pertaining to Vader vs Revan. Just on my case about Ventress, missing the whole point as to why she was brought up. All the while struggling, and lowballing her feats, then using Dooku as a measuring stick as a way to undermine, which is a failed attempt seeing as he hasn't even proven Revan's superiority over Ventress let alone Dooku. Again, feats only.

Where are you going with this, Freshest? Just curious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's odd that Freshest is accusing me of deflecting the topic. I don't see anything in that last post pertaining to Vader vs Revan. Just on my case about Ventress, missing the whole point as to why she was brought up. All the while struggling, and lowballing her feats, then using Dooku as a measuring stick as a way to undermine, which is a failed attempt seeing as he hasn't even proven Revan's superiority over Ventress let alone Dooku. Again, feats only.

Have no fear. If Freshest can't, I will.

I have confidence in him though. He's a better debater than you.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Palpatine>Malachor+Vitiate+Lehon+Dread Masters in knowledge tbh
http://33.media.tumblr.com/18bc1c78c0fc14d1fa93d063adf7c266/tumblr_n917d2kQOO1sh43kgo1_500.gif

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I agree with S66 in regards to the implications of Vader's advanced force knowledge. Basing his esoteric prowess solely on what he's shown is ludicrous, as then it can be said that Vitiate is relatively ignorant compared to the likes of Exar Kun, who's shown quite a greater variety of powers than Vitiate. That said, Revan still has the edge in esoteric knowledge and application.


I knew you understood where I was going with this. I assume you still know my stance, right?

@Zenwolf--thanks.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I knew you understood where I was going with this.

Exploitation of TORians not funny tbh

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I assume you still know my stance, right?

In regards to this thread? Vader slaughterfest

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Have no fear. If Freshest can't, I will.

I have confidence in him though. He's a better debater than you.


How do you win a debate against people missing the point?

No, you won't. I recall you posting Ventress manipulating small rocks and compared it to Revan manipulating meteorites, lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://33.media.tumblr.com/18bc1c78c0fc14d1fa93d063adf7c266/tumblr_n917d2kQOO1sh43kgo1_500.gif

Quote says he's literally mastered every force technique, so....

S66 remains the NY Jets of debates. It's amusing to watch him argue in favor of PT characters in all situations.



http://isarta.com/infos/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/6877727841_aa5fb75b26_z.jpg

Originally posted by Selenial
Quote says he's literally mastered every force technique, so....
Haven't seen that argument presented in a while.
Last time I did, I remember seeing the quote - and it didn't say what everyone hyped it too.

Enlighten me by resharing.

Found it. As I suspected:

"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"
-- Star Wars: The Dark Empire Sourcebook

That being said, Gideon kindly presented all the powers that apply to this (everything listed in the Dark Empire Sourcebook). Majority were basic powers, the others Revan had. Only a few he didn't - like Wormholes, Dopplegänger, etc. Plus, like psmith said, this is a generic quote that has been said for the likes of Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, and Thon as well. Not really as special as you make it out to be, TBH.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I question 6. In Jedi vs Sith, Palpatine put so much emphasis on what he did keep secret from Vader. With such emphasis, the implication to me seemed that he shared much with Vader, other than things that could be used against him. Even Sidious' dark side adepts knew drain and various sorts of alchemy. Jerec gained a whole bunch of rare techniques from the limited access of secrets which Palpatine allowed him. Logically, Vader, being the direct apprentice, should know far more than any adept, hence the large amount of jealousy towards Vader.

Palpatine had the largest collection of knowledge than any being within the mythos, and Vader had access to a lot of it.

Vader > Revan in everything else, though.

Well, that means that he shouldn't be underestimated, but it's not enough to put him even close to Revan. And Vader likely wasn't allowed to have access to the same knowledge as those dark side acolytes simply because he would use it much better than them, and that would be dangerous for Palpatine.

That would explain why we don't see him use that many powers in combat, though that's probably also because Vader is a Sith Juggernaut.

He was implied however to known many more powers than the ones listed in the Shadows Of The Empire Sourcebook. It was also stated that Galen Marek learned to use "many fearsome dark side powers" from Vader, so that's at least proof that he is no slouch in this regard.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Well, that means that he shouldn't be underestimated, but it's not enough to put him even close to Revan. And Vader likely wasn't allowed to have access to the same knowledge as those dark side acolytes simply because he would use it much better than them, and that would be dangerous for Palpatine.

That would explain why we don't see him use that many powers in combat, though that's probably also because Vader is a Sith Juggernaut.

He was implied however to known many more powers than the ones listed in the Shadows Of The Empire Sourcebook. It was also stated that Galen Marek learned to use "many fearsome dark side powers" from Vader, so that's at least proof that he is no slouch in this regard.

He has shown other powers though, IE: Beast Control, Mind Control, Drain Knowledge, Alter Environment, Barrier, Detoxify Poison, Force Absorb, Force Stun and so on.

So there is some truth that he learned from Palpatine.

Originally posted by psmith81992
http://isarta.com/infos/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/6877727841_aa5fb75b26_z.jpg


No, that's not hyperbole.

Hyperbole are statements like Vitiate is godlike, and other statements used to hype him up.

Palpatine perhaps knowing every technique is supported, as he had an entire galaxy at his disposal to dig up. Fast learning rate. And decades to study.

The statement isn't exaggerated, just unquantifiable (hence the word "almost" and something that was said to be believed.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to know this. Don't throw out what you believe to be a big fancy word just to make yourself seem smart, unless you know its meaning.

Your wife must be lonely, BTW. Does she know about me? I bet she'd be jealous of all the obsessive attention you give me.

*waits for I know you are but what am I?*

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I find this thread interesting. Go on.



Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Temp - this is your champion?

I like ya Ant, and I mean this with all due respect, but you are absolutely no match for S66. Now if you could enlist Skillz to enter the fray on SWTOR's behalf, the outcome might very well be different...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
but you are absolutely no match for S66.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwaRQ-_kgy8
---
There's a reason why everyone is laughing at him in this thread Temp.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwaRQ-_kgy8
---
There's a reason why everyone is laughing at him in this thread Temp.

mmm

An appeal to the majority is a logical fallacy. "Everyone" also thinks Sidious would blitz Vitiate and annihilate Revan... does that make them right?

{This is why S66 is going to stomp you unless you have Skillz on your side. excellent}

Originally posted by The_Tempest
"Everyone" also thinks Sidious would blitz Vitiate and annihilate Revan... does that make them right?
Since when, lmfao?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Since when, lmfao?

We see more opinions and arguments in favor of that sentiment than to the contrary. Across the internet, the majority vastly favors Sidious over the likes of Vitiate and Revan and, more often than not, to an excessive degree.

Since we must abide by the wisdom of the majority, Sidious clearly must be >>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate.

{he's not, but that's what you get when you subscribe to "majority rules" logic. }

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Well, that means that he shouldn't be underestimated, but it's not enough to put him even close to Revan. And Vader likely wasn't allowed to have access to the same knowledge as those dark side acolytes simply because he would use it much better than them, and that would be dangerous for Palpatine.

That would explain why we don't see him use that many powers in combat, though that's probably also because Vader is a Sith Juggernaut.

He was implied however to known many more powers than the ones listed in the Shadows Of The Empire Sourcebook. It was also stated that Galen Marek learned to use "many fearsome dark side powers" from Vader, so that's at least proof that he is no slouch in this regard.


Palpatine wouldn't give him access to powers that could be used against him that's all. Other than that, there's absolutely no reason to assume Palpatine's adepts would be given more access to sith secrets than Palpatine's only sith disciple. Palpatine went on record to state what he hid from Vader (I believe some of Naga's and Kun's secrets). Also, I forget which source states that most of the adepts were jealous of Vader being the apprentice, but I know there is one (if I can't find it, I'll concede that notion), which wouldn't make sense unless being a sith gives you more privileges, and knowledge would be the most apparent one, as that's what most dark siders crave the most.

All in all, there's absolutely nothing to support the notion that Palpatine would give his mere adepts access to knowledge that he would hold back from Vader, and a lot to support the opposite. That's the whole point of being an apprentice.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rLHpEHrXcWg/TskKIQGKmOI/AAAAAAAABgQ/CkY1WGbvazs/s1600/yawn.png
This is the general reaction to any of your posts.

That's not true, Beefy, you go out of your way to respond. excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's not true, Beefy, you go out of your way to respond. excellent

First time in what, 3-4 weeks? Great point there

Originally posted by psmith81992
First time in what, 3-4 weeks? Great point there

S66 really isn't active on here either, so actually, it is.

{You're getting pretty riled up here, tho.}

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's not true, Beefy, you go out of your way to respond. excellent




And even keeps track of the responses.

I love your dynamic tbh. Each of you trying to outtroll the other. It pleases me. excellent

It definitely beats you sucking Sidious cock Tempest

Nothing beats that, Cart. excellent

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's pretty retarded that you're using Ahsoka to lowball,

You were the one who brought up beating magnaguards as being superior to something, not I, so how am I lowballing. She's a Padawan, one clearly bellow Ventress, so using an opponent she is greater than as a baseline is kind of stupid.

The ****? Compared to the monsters of the PT like Anakin, Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, or Maul? Sure, but you are confusing me with someone else. I've always advocated for the KotOR having pretty elite Jedi, because that's said in game. They're all elite war veterans, so please tell me the logic behind them being weak compared to randoms in the PT?

You could, you know, play the game? It's all said in there. And Revan faced armies, literal armies, of said droids, at a time. For hours. Fisto going up a few magnaguards doesn't compare in anyway. It doesn't mean Fisto is weak. It means Revan is stronger.

Savage isn't ragdolling Marr, Satele, Protags and friends.

It happens in a cutscene. How is a cutscene a game mechanic? It's a plot telling device by definition.

I don't need to prove superiority over Ventress, because you were the one who said Ventress compares. The burden of proof lies with you, and I find it lacking. Regardless, I've sighted examples of Revan's superior combat record to Ventress, as well as his feats in speed, and you've given me Magnaguards.

Get to it then. I'm waiting for something substantial, anything really, and I have all the time in the world to wait.

It's kind of funny how you think one needs to lowball someone who loses constantly in almost every appearance she has. You putting your fingers in your ears and saying, "But Fisto," doesn't really change that.

It also has shit to do with this thread.

I don't think S66 is saying Ventress is above Revan, really. I think he's just saying that to inflame the ire of his enemies.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
his enemies.

lol

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I love your dynamic tbh. Each of you trying to outtroll the other. It pleases me. excellent


Oh yea, what gave it away, the picture of the guy yawning? Lol


I think none of us (except for you)would be surprised if he was serious.

This is war brah.

goddammit Beefy, quit interrupting me.

S66, are you interested in a formal Ventress x Revan debate on Friday to Saturday?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine wouldn't give him access to powers that could be used against him that's all. Other than that, there's absolutely no reason to assume Palpatine's adepts would be given more access to sith secrets than Palpatine's only sith disciple. Palpatine went on record to state what he hid from Vader (I believe some of Naga's and Kun's secrets). Also, I forget which source states that most of the adepts were jealous of Vader being the apprentice, but I know there is one (if I can't find it, I'll concede that notion), which wouldn't make sense unless being a sith gives you more privileges, and knowledge would be the most apparent one, as that's what most dark siders crave the most.

All in all, there's absolutely nothing to support the notion that Palpatine would give his mere adepts access to knowledge that he would hold back from Vader, and a lot to support the opposite. That's the whole point of being an apprentice.

That would mean, however, that he also knows powers like Drain, Teleport, Sith Sorcery, Sith Alchemy, Battle Meditation and so on, which leads me to ask why he never used them.

Pretty sure he used all those but Teleportation - but I see your point.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I think none of us (except for you)would be surprised if he was serious.

Your anger towards S66 is misplaced. Dude's just rightly putting Sidious at the top of the heap. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you don't hate 66 as much as you hate Sidious himself. Which is weird, because you were such a devoted champion of the Emperor for so long. excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is war brah.


I'm still waiting to hear your Caedus/Sidious comparison tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your anger towards S66 is misplaced. Dude's just rightly putting Sidious at the top of the heap. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you don't hate 66 as much as you hate Sidious himself. Which is weird, because you were such a devoted champion of the Emperor for so long. excellent

Sidious has nothing to do with anything. It's basically any PT character.. And if it's Sidious, it's almost always a wtfpwn. Like I said, very amusing.

1.Vader.
2.Revan.
3.Vader
4.Vader.
5.Equal.
6.Revan.
7.Revan.

Originally posted by ares834
Probably the most esoteric ability I've seen Vader use was when he turned a Stormtrooper to ash using some unspecified power.

What? When did he do this?

Originally posted by psmith81992
Sidious has nothing to do with anything. It's basically any PT character.. And if it's Sidious, it's almost always a wtfpwn. Like I said, very amusing.

Isn't it the same with SWTOR and Vitiate? excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Isn't it the same with SWTOR and Vitiate? excellent
Nope. I don't think all major SWTOR characters>characters from every other area. And nobody outside legend does either.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Nope. I don't think all major SWTOR characters>characters from every other area. And nobody outside legend does either.

I don't think S66 does either tbh.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You were the one who brought up beating magnaguards as being superior to something, not I, so how am I lowballing. She's a Padawan, one clearly bellow Ventress, so using an opponent she is greater than as a baseline is kind of stupid.

The ****? Compared to the monsters of the PT like Anakin, Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, or Maul? Sure, but you are confusing me with someone else. I've always advocated for the KotOR having pretty elite Jedi, because that's said in game. They're all elite war veterans, so please tell me the logic behind them being weak compared to randoms in the PT?

You could, you know, play the game? It's all said in there. And Revan faced armies, literal armies, of said droids, at a time. For hours. Fisto going up a few magnaguards doesn't compare in anyway. It doesn't mean Fisto is weak. It means Revan is stronger.

Savage isn't ragdolling Marr, Satele, Protags and friends.

It happens in a cutscene. How is a cutscene a game mechanic? It's a plot telling device by definition.

I don't need to prove superiority over Ventress, because you were the one who said Ventress compares. The burden of proof lies with you, and I find it lacking. Regardless, I've sighted examples of Revan's superior combat record to Ventress, as well as his feats in speed, and you've given me Magnaguards.

Get to it then. I'm waiting for something substantial, anything really, and I have all the time in the world to wait.

It's kind of funny how you think one needs to lowball someone who loses constantly in almost every appearance she has. You putting your fingers in your ears and saying, "But Fisto," doesn't really change that.

It also has shit to do with this thread.


You're not understanding how this works. Mentioning Ahsoka in an attempt to lowball the feat, would only indicate Ahsoka is just that good (ignoring the fact that magnaguards are different in terms of skill). Yes, considering their reaction speed and ability to adapt rather instantly, cutting down magnaguards with such ease impresses me a lot more than cutting down an army, with an unknown amount of effort within a much bigger gap of time. See that's the thing when we lack details behind a certain feat. Context/details matter a lot when evaluating. For instance, Vader has fought a larger number of jedi at the same time than Palp ever has, and for a longer period of time, yet I doubt anyone in their right mind would think it's better than Sidious blitzing three in perhaps a second. See where I'm getting at here? And seriously, you don't think Fisto could take on armies of magnaguards within the span of hours, given the ease with which he cut them down in a very short amount of time? Unless you can prove those fodder troops are better than magnaguards, then you can't determine Revan cutting down a much larger army in a much larger period of time is better. You're just arguing from your opinion, which I'm not really interested in. By that logic you may as well put him on Sidious's level in terms of saber prowess.

I was referring to Revan before that fight. His best TK feat before then was bringing down meteorites, a feat Ventress has matched when crushing giants with huge boulders that she ripped from a cave. As for Revan force pushing Satele and crew, is hardly ragdolling them. Savage, in a fit of rage, has dominated both Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, but even outside of that feat, he's sent Anakin and Kenobi flying numerous times, and has done the same to Maul and some other jedi. Since you don't care much about details/context, I might as well add in their Ventress nearly choking out Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time, which is another display of domination, I've yet to see Revan match. Sorry but you don't lose to people you can casually ragdoll.

Yes, I brought up Ventress for a specific reason, and you jumped to it and decided to debate me on that of all things, which suggests you missed the point. But go ahead and continue, because you've yet to prove anything other than you have an opinion. But I assure you, harping on Ahsoka is diminishing your argument, not helping. If you were following my point, you'd realize that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't think S66 does either tbh.


Ssshhhh.

This is fun.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't think S66 does either tbh.

Oh see how cute now you gave him the opening he needed. After looking foolish he can simply say, "oh uh ha I was trolling all of you!". You're definitely the handicap sticker he needs but not the one he deserves.

Also, I'd like to clarify, you don't lose to people you can casually ragdoll unless you're not taking the fight seriously or going all out.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Oh see how cute now you gave him the opening he needed. After looking foolish he can simply say, "oh uh ha I was trolling all of you!". You're definitely the handicap sticker he needs but not the one he deserves.


I'm not trolling.

Temp just knows where I'm going with all of this. Which should be easy to understand, even for Ant as dense as he is.

You're a special case, though. Once you brought up Krayt's force ripples to indicate superiority over Dooku as a combatant, I was done with you in debating (lol).

I like how you didn't accept my debate offering, tbh.

Or we can do Dooku vs Krayt.

Dunno why no-one has mentioned the rather obvious possibility that Vader simply may not be talented in sorcery and esoteric force techniques. It happens.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I like how you didn't accept my debate offering, tbh.

Or we can do Dooku vs Krayt.


Revan vs Ventress? You'd really waste your time? You mustn't think too highly of Revan.

But sure. You start it off.

After making you my ***** the first few times we 'debated', I decided you weren't worth the effort. From that point on, you became an amusement to us all. Also, lol@you making things up. But you're not too bright so this isn't shocking

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Revan vs Ventress? You'd really waste your time? You mustn't think too highly of Revan.

But sure. You start it off.
It would be a formal debate on a separate thread for us specifically, btw.

Have you done those before?

He's never actually debated anyone successfully. He will just keep posting until the other parties stop, then declare victory.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Revan vs Ventress? You'd really waste your time? You mustn't think too highly of Revan.

But sure. You start it off.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It would be a formal debate on a separate thread for us specifically, btw.

Have you done those before?

http://media.giphy.com/media/YPIrsRqqO7oB2/giphy.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It would be a formal debate on a separate thread for us specifically, btw.

Have you done those before?


I've never done one, but I know what you're talking about. Comic Vine style.

You start it off. Don't mind my stalker if he/she/it posts on it, though. Well he'll likely just agree with you and insult me anyway. Like a mad ex or something.

1. Revan
2. Revan
3. Revan
4. Vader
5. Revan
6. Revan
7. Revan

That's so cute. S66 is still posting.

1. Vader
2. Revan
3. Revan
4. Vader
5. Vader
6. Revan
7. Debatable

Vader.



I'll give Revan the benefit of the doubt.



Either or, tbh. Vader's a cyborg and Revan's a zombie.



Vader's the more prolific of the two, I suppose.



Vader.



Revan.



Probably Revan.

1) Vader
2) Even, or Revan.
3) Revan
4) Vader
5) Vader
6) Revan
7) Vader

1. Strength - Vader
2. Speed - Revan
3. Stamina - Revan
4. Lightsaber prowess - Even
5. TK - Vader
6. Esoteric force powers - Revan
7. Overall - Revan

Originally posted by Stigma
Decide who, between peak Vader and peak Revan, is better in each of the listed categories:

1. Strenght
2. Speed
3. Stamina
4. Lightsaber prowess
5. TK
6. Esoteric force powers
7. Overall

1. Vader
2. Revan
3. Vader
4. Vader
5. Vader
6. Revan
7. Undecided.

How the **** does Vader have better stamina than Revan?

The guy fought armies of Sith for over an hour, then Bastila, then an army bigger and tougher than the army that he fought for an hour, then Darth Malak on a nexus.

"the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort."

Plus we can throw in his mental war with Vitiate, insane pain resistance, willing himself back from the dead, and continuing to fight on Yavin IV despite X, Y, and Z happening to him.

I really doubt 1 room of droids was bigger than the whole floors of Sith that proceeded it. No matter if they replicate or not.

Malak was quite certain those droids would beat Revan while the armies of Sith would fall. mmm

I'm willing to bet that's due to numbers than being better than dozens of mega amped dark side warriors.

Or he was just thick enough to not think that Revan could reprogram the consoles. Also theres more of a constant pressure with that room than just loads of droids.

Been awhile since I played KotOR, but didn't Malak realize that his armies wouldn't stop Revan? Wasn't it all to buy him time to prepare for the duel?

To me that looks like a game mechanic, tbh. Malak may be perceived as dumb but he's not going to let Revan take control of the Star Forge's best droids after preparing and counting on them throughout Revan's entire room to stop him. Plus I can't picture Revan canonically reprogramming them while others are shooting at him like shown in the game. That being said, even if there weren't more droids, he still fought through a respectable amount of them, the armies before him, Shan, and then Malak, so my point holds.

Originally posted by ares834
Been awhile since I played KotOR, but didn't Malak realize that his armies wouldn't stop Revan? Wasn't it all to buy him time to prepare for the duel?
Malak knew the armies wouldn't stop Revan, but he thought he could use them to buy time so he could set up the droids in the final room against Revan, IIRC.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To me that looks like a game mechanic, tbh. Malak may be perceived as dumb but he's not going to let Revan take control of the Star Forge's best droids after preparing and counting on them throughout Revan's entire room to stop him. Plus I can't picture Revan canonically reprogramming them while others are shooting at him like shown in the game. That being said, even if there weren't more droids, he still fought through a respectable amount of them, the armies before him, Shan, and then Malak, so my point holds.

Buh-buh... BUT IT WAS SCRIPTED BRO! The game designers INTENTIONALLY put it there, so it must have been what happened.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Buh-buh... BUT IT WAS SCRIPTED BRO! The game designers INTENTIONALLY put it there, so it must have been what happened.
http://bottomlinehealth.com/help-my-mouth-tastes-salty-all-the-time/

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://bottomlinehealth.com/help-my-mouth-tastes-salty-all-the-time/

Concession accepted.

Vader is the Chosen One, so he's better in all categories. Trufax

TBH, I have no problem logically breaking apart the Star Forge event after re-reading the prima.

Malak established an infinite line of droids, so clearly at one point Revan would have to disable them.

That doesn't change Revan's multitasking or battling through multiple waves of them or what I said in the thread.

Their firepower alone is capable of utterly destroying massive Rakata doors that stood for countless centuries.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Vader in all

Mfw I read KMC this early in the morning and see shit like this:

https://media.giphy.com/media/eikW9F4wTUHK0/giphy.gif

Depressing isn't it?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Depressing isn't it?

It really is, but to be fair, this kind of stuff predates this sub-forum. And that's going back ten years.

#haterade

Originally posted by The_Tempest
#haterade

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee399/CherrySueDointheDo/32294-Ron-Swanson-no-gif-LN4e_zps631d5937.gif

Doesn't legends Vader have a couple esoteric powers?

Kinetite for example.

One guide said drain iirc.

Meh

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
One guide said drain iirc.

Meh

Which one?

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Which one?

I think, think it was the DS source book. But I'm unsure.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Doesn't legends Vader have a couple esoteric powers?

Kinetite for example.

One guide said drain iirc.

Meh
damn must be over revan then kek

Strength - Vader comfortably.
Speed - impossible to call.
Stamina - Vader, but both are top tiers.
Lightsaber prowess - Vader comfortably.
Telekinesis - Vader.
Esoteric Force powers - Revan comfortably.
Overall - Vader.

Originally posted by JKBart
Stamina - Vader, but both are top tiers.
Lightsaber prowess - Vader comfortably.
LMFAO

pedophile trying to direct attention the other way lmao