Qui-Gon Jinn vs Ven Zallow

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Trocity
Can't remember if this has been done.

Who wins?

Kosmos Supreme
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t606005.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t593578.html

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Trocity
Can't remember if this has been done.

Who wins?

It's been done. For the most logical and well thought result watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5W4GYh6QRE&list=PLd9UlXo3DM_vfnK9Dtfsq36XGgPEHr_A_&index=3

carthage
Zallow or it could go either way

Fated Xtasy
Jinn in my opinion takes this. Though depending on how good these two are in the end it comes down to who is going to tire faster and who has enough endurance/stamina to pull through with a win. At least that's how I see it.

SunRazer
Either way.

McP
Originally posted by chilled monkey
It's been done. For the most logical and well thought result watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5W4GYh6QRE&list=PLd9UlXo3DM_vfnK9Dtfsq36XGgPEHr_A_&index=3

He may be right in that vid, but those youtubers are overall terrible. It is a shame to use their vids as an examples of anything.

The Merchant
Jinn-kun.

McP
Jinn-sama I would say

S_W_LeGenD

Nephthys
Zallow

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys
Zallow

chilled monkey
Originally posted by McP
He may be right in that vid, but those youtubers are overall terrible. It is a shame to use their vids as an examples of anything.

Sorry but I have to disagree with that. Overall those youtubers are absolute geniuses who provide logical evaluations and detailed analyses. Watching these videos is a great inspiration to me. They understand the importance of not only "what he did" but also "HOW and WHY he did it."

Anyway, Qui-Gon wins this one. The thing about Zallow is that he was really good at battlefield engagements. In a one-on-one duel he is severely hampered. People keep raving about how he killed multiple Sith in the temple battle but again, that was the kind of situation he was optimised for.

His style is textbook Ataru and is basically all speed and offense, the better to cut down as many foes as quick as possible. Because of this "attack only" view his defences are lacking. Notice how when forced onto the defensive he floundered and could barely avoid being utterly flattened. Also, at the end of the fight he leaves himself absurdly wide open which results in him getting stabbed. Qui-Gon doesn't make these kind of mistakes due to his more refined and less flashy style.

Against Qui-Gon Jinn, who has not only mastered Ataru but also modified it to better suit his needs, Zallow would be highly predictable, especially given how adaptable and improvisational Qui-Gon is. Qui-Gon's style has all the benefits while compensating for the weaknesses. Zallow's does not.

Quite simply, Qui-Gon is the winner.

|King Joker|
Hahahahaha

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Also, at the end of the fight he leaves himself absurdly wide open which results in him getting stabbed. Qui-Gon doesn't make these kind of mistakes due to his more refined and less flashy style.

This is the most ironic thing I've ever read.

Anyway Zallow.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by l King Joker l
Hahahahaha


Originally posted by FreshestSlice
This is the most ironic thing I've ever read.

Anyway Zallow.

Interesting that neither of you can offer any sort of justification or proof whereas I have.

Face facts. Qui-Gon is just better. He's more refined, more skilled, more adaptable. Zallow's by-the-book approach would allow Qui-Gon to easily anticipate and outmanoeuvre him. That is just common sense.

Zallow is ridiculously over-hyped.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Interesting that neither of you can offer any sort of justification or proof whereas I have.

Qui-Gon's style is why he was left wide open and stabbed, so it's pretty ironic that you used it as justification as to why he wouldn't be. Especially considering it is the exact same style Zallow uses.

It's like you've never even seen TPM, let alone read the duel with Maul. Of course struggling with and being killed by Maul is comparable to blitzing several Sith. The only thing he adapted to being is a Force Ghost.

Sinious
He just can't accept the fact that Liam Neeson can lose too.

Which is understandable I guess.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Anyway, Qui-Gon wins this one. The thing about Zallow is that he was really good at battlefield engagements. In a one-on-one duel he is severely hampered.

Good job restating Jensaarai's faulty logic. Please do provide any level of evidence supporting this.



Generally Jedi Guardians of Zallow's day didn't practice Ataru, but go on.



Still no proof that Zallow practices Ataru, but there is proof that Qui-Gon Jinn does. Thanks for fighting my battle for me.



Except that one time when he made a mistake and got stabbed and died



Quite the argument you made, there.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by NewGuy01


Except that one time when he made a mistake and got stabbed and died


Do you mean after carrying the entire battle by himself? Or after fighting through droids prior to getting to the Theed hangar? Or could you possibly mean after he had Maul on the defensive?

FreshestSlice
No, he means when Qui-Gon made a mistake, because of his style, got stabbed, and died, something chilled said wouldn't happen because reasons.
Originally posted by Sinious
He just can't accept the fact that Liam Neeson can lose too.

Which is understandable I guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlEJFjVCmgg

Zenwolf
Qui-Gon didn't really make a mistake, Maul just smacked him with his saber hit which gave him the opportunity to stab him after Maul pushed his blade back, I didn't see any mistake on Qui-Gon's part.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-05-2015/RqSjnt.gif

FreshestSlice
Leaving himself wide open is a mistake. Following Maul into a trap was also a mistake. Whenever you leave an opening or give your opponent an advantage, you made a mistake. Seems simple enough to me.

Zenwolf
How did Qui-Gon leave himself wide open exactly? Maul hit him right after he pushed his blade, it's not like Qui-Gon left himself open.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Zenwolf
How did Qui-Gon leave himself wide open exactly? Maul hit him right after he pushed his blade, it's not like Qui-Gon left himself open.

................... no expression

That's the literal definition of an opening. When you leave a space to be hit, you left an opening.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
................... no expression

That's the literal definition of an opening. When you leave a space to be hit, you left an opening.

He didn't intentionally do it though.

I guess that's where the wires got crossed, there was an opening yes but it was hardly Qui-Gon's fault because he was obviously stunned from the hit.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Qui-Gon's style is why he was left wide open and stabbed, so it's pretty ironic that you used it as justification as to why he wouldn't be. Especially considering it is the exact same style Zallow uses.

No it isn't. Did you not pay attention?

Zallow uses textbook Ataru without any kind of modifications or refinements. Qui-Gon uses a modified variant of Ataru which cuts down the flashy acrobatics and superfluous movements, is far more energy-efficient and has better defensive techniques.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's like you've never even seen TPM, let alone read the duel with Maul. Of course struggling with and being killed by Maul is comparable to blitzing several Sith.

Like how Zallow struggled with and was killed by Malgus?

And no duh, he blitzed several Sith. That was in a battlefield engagement, the very thing he was optimised for.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Qui-Gon's Good job restating Jensaarai's faulty logic. Please do provide any level of evidence supporting this.


Gee, maybe the fact that you know, the only one-on-one duel he was in ended with him getting killed.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Still no proof that Zallow practices Ataru,

Is that supposed to be funny? Have you actually watched the Deceived trailer? The one where Zallow jumps and flips around all over the place?

And you know, jumping and flipping around is the definition of Ataru.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except that one time when he made a mistake and got stabbed and died


Have you watched the movie?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Qui-Gon didn't really make a mistake, Maul just smacked him with his saber hit which gave him the opportunity to stab him after Maul pushed his blade back, I didn't see any mistake on Qui-Gon's part.


Precisely. Thank you.

He didn't make any mistake at all. Maul just landed a hit because, surprise, surprise, Qui-Gon is not perfect.

EVERY fighter is going to get hit at some point in their career.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Do you mean after carrying the entire battle by himself? Or after fighting through droids prior to getting to the Theed hangar? Or could you possibly mean after he had Maul on the defensive?


Also true. Thank you.

NewGuy01
Sure, because he was facing a vastly superior oopponent.



Anakin and Bane can do fancy jumps and flips too. Djem So specialists.



Just because Ataru involves heavy acrobatics doesn't mean that any fighter who does flips is performing Ataru sequences. erm



Yes, I watched the movie where Qui-Gon was gutted.



thumb up Just like Zallow.

Sinious
Since almost all of us agree that Malgus is a harder foe to fight compared to TPM Maul and Zallow killed 2 sith warriors while fighting him where Qui-Gon failed to defeat Maul even with the aid of his apprentice, I don't see how an argument can be made for Jinn here.

FreshestSlice
Much more than two Warriors.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
No it isn't. Did you not pay attention?

Zallow uses textbook Ataru without any kind of modifications or refinements. Qui-Gon uses a modified variant of Ataru which cuts down the flashy acrobatics and superfluous movements, is far more energy-efficient and has better defensive techniques.

The **** does that have to do with anything? Zallow doesn't need acrobatics, and he's obviously a proficient swordsman in his own right. Blitzing several of Sith Warriors, two at once, while dueling Malgus. Most of his acrobatics are evasive maneuvers, which is pretty common in far superior duelists to Ginn.


Decieved Malgus is superior to TPM Maul, and like I and several others have said, Zallow didn't fight Malgus alone.

And? Battlefield engagements are MORE difficult than duels. Especially when a duel happens during it.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Much more than two Warriors.


I meant while dueling Malgus not during the entire battle.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Sinious
Since almost all of us agree that Malgus is a harder foe to fight compared to TPM Maul

Actually, I think TPM Maul has a good chance of victory against the Malgus that Ven Zallow fought tbh.

Sinious
And you've admitted this in another thread very recently:
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'll still edge it to Malgus over TPM Maul.

Which means you do accept that Deceived Malgus is a more challenging foe regardless of how close the two are.

NewGuy01
Malgus became more powerful between the Sacking of Coruscant and the end of Deceived.

Sinious
Hmm, fair enough. So would you say that Sacking of Coruscant Malgus would lose to TPM Maul or it could go both ways?

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm, fair enough. So would you say that Sacking of Coruscant Malgus would lose to TPM Maul or it could go both ways?

I don't find either option to be mutually exclusive, but Maul should win more often than not, if that's what you're asking.

Sinious
It was.

What about the rest of my argument? Jinn failed with the assistance of his apprentice where Zallow failed alone + managed to kill 2 warriors while doing so. Isn't the latter more impressive?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Sinious
Since almost all of us agree that Malgus is a harder foe to fight compared to TPM Maul and Zallow killed 2 sith warriors while fighting him where Qui-Gon failed to defeat Maul even with the aid of his apprentice, I don't see how an argument can be made for Jinn here.

That's because you're relying on ABC logic (this guy beat this guy and this other guy beat this other guy so the first guy is better). Beg your pardon but that is limited, unimaginative and frankly not very smart.

That is why youtube Vs. videos (for the most part at least) are so awesome; because the makers understand that its not just a matter of "who won?" You also have to ask "HOW and WHY did he/she win?" You need to consider how the duellists different skillsets, strengths, weaknesses and tactical approaches match up. An approach that works against one foe may not work against another. Even if that other is overall "weaker" they may be better equipped to defeat him/her.

Watch this (I know it's long but its worth it):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5W4GYh6QRE&index=3&list=PLd9UlXo3DM_vfnK9Dtfsq36XGgPEHr_A_

Put simply, Zallow beat those 2 dudes while fighting Malgus because his personal fighting style was designed for that kind of situation. That same approach would not be effective against Qui-Gon because Zallow uses textbook Atraru while Qui-Gon uses a personalised form of Ataru. This means he would easily be able to suss Zallow out and outmaneuver him.

Sinious
Yeah but if Zallow is a superior combatant, I don't see Jinn being able to do that.

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