Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

That way we can confine the new skirmish to one easily manageable thread and I don't have to keep track of half a dozen random-ass threads.

?v=2ovjnTCk_vs

^ The latest exhibit for Vitiate's case.

Let's shoot for some classic KMC (I'm thinking '08-'10) style debate.

Zannah tbh.

goddammit Neph

uhuh

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/darth-bandon-respect-thread/102992/.

Mmkay I'll put this here then.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dread Masters powers also obliterated entire fleets. Did you forget the Oricon episode?

I recall witnessing obliterated pieces of starships around Oricon.You mean mentally dominate those aboard fleets...Now whose making baseless assumptions...This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known.

...

Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

Considering Darth Sidious was a master (and the only known master) of this technique and that Luke attributed Sidious with the power to kill worlds, and that he was demonstrated every other aspect mention, this is most likely within his capabilities.

Its also considered the most destructive Force power known...

Darth Reave

1) DE Sidious
2) Vitiate

and the rest is debatable. Although Caedus, Nihilus (debatable) and Plagueis would make it to top 5.

Oh, you haven't replaced Sidious with Vitiate, Sin? uhuh

Why would I?

I like you, Sin.

Please, call me Sinny.

Emperor Vitiate is the most powerful, and he is followed by Darth Sidious. Shortly after falls Darth Krayt and Darth Caeuds, who are equals. Then we got the following, not in order:
Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Darth Malgus, Darth Nox, Emperor's Wrath, Darth Bane, and Darth Vader should all be around the same level.

Thanks for your contribution, Ant. You guys have reasons?

No problem. For which people do you want reasons for?

All of them, I guess. You needn't spend 3hrs on an epic mega-post that no one will read. Just concise, scholarly reasons.

Originally posted by Sinious
1) DE Sidious
2) Vitiate

and the rest is debatable. Although Caedus, Nihilus (debatable) and Plagueis would make it to top 5.




I have Krayt instead of Nihilus though, he's too unique/weird for me to place.

I'm off for the night. Let's all weigh in and try to have a good, old-fashioned debate in the spirit of old KMC wherein I mercilessly crush you all in His Imperial Majesty's most glorious and honorable namewe all have fun.

Sidious has both the hype and feats advantage over any sith. Had he lived in TOR era, he probably wouldn't bother becoming an excellent duelist and just be a sorcerer. However, RoT required him to be good at everything. A Sith with such raw power and knowledge of the force who is also the greatest sith duelist of all times. Besides, he represents the devil in SW Universe and was the big bad of the climax era. Its really hard to top that and it would be inappropriate for another sith to surpass him tbh.

Vitiate's story background is so ridiculously OP that it even made me question Sidious' place at the top for a while when I first read about him. He consistently stomped every jedi and sith that dared to face him. Honestly, other than Sidious, I don't see anyone else who can keep up with his force offense.

Caedus' feats are enough to put him at the top Sith tier.

Plagueis' mastery over the force is incredible and he is confirmed to be an excellent duelist and is => TPM Sidious(who shouldn't be far behind ROTS Sidious) overall.

Originally posted by Trocity


I have Krayt instead of Nihilus though, he's too unique/weird for me to place.

Yeah I'm thinking about removing him from my list for the same reason.

- Emperor Vitiate: Destruction of Ziost; Domination of Jedi Strike Force; Superior to Dread Masters and Revan; Has power of 8,000 of the most powerful Sith Lords; Textbooks of extreme hype.
- Darth Sidious: Confirmed most powerful Sith Lord in history by many sources; Domination of Jedi Strike Team; Stalemate of Yoda; TK of Dooku; Virtually everything shown in Dark Empire.
- Darth Krayt: Regarded as an equal to Luke Skywalker by some sources; Powerful enough to contend and defeat Abeloth; Ultimate superiority to everyone of his era - including powerful people.
- Darth Caedus: Capable of nearly stalemating Luke Skywalker in a brutal battle; Has knowledge on a large list of ancient powers; Domination of Jedi Strike Team consisting of Kyle Katarn.

I am too lazy to type the rest - that should be good enough, tbh. Ah, and for my list of other people, I forgot Darth Plagueis. I also did not include Darth Nihilus for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Emperor Vitiate is the most powerful, and he is followed by Darth Sidious. Shortly after falls Darth Krayt and Darth Caeuds, who are equals. Then we got the following, not in order:
Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Darth Malgus, Darth Nox, Emperor's Wrath, Darth Bane, and Darth Vader should all be around the same level. I'm just going to assume your forgot about Darth Plagueis.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ah, and for my list of other people, I forgot Darth Plagueis.

Yeah just saw it, balance restored.

Well this thread died fast.

Marry me.

No one else confused as to why Ant's primary reason for placing Sidious at 2, is that he was confirmd as Number one in many sources?

Originally posted by Sinious
1) DE Sidious
2) Vitiate
Expected better from you, honestly.

Vitiate have:-

01. Survived in a ritual that destroyed 8000 other Sith Lord participants.
02. Created a nexus of dark side energy on planet Dromund Kaas (i.e. Dark Temple region)
03. Corrupted the entire environment of planet Dromund Kaas.
04. Concealed the presence of thousands of his minions stationed within the Republic and Jedi Order by virtue of First Son.
06. Augmented the power of thousands of individuals on galactic-scale.
07. Defeated an entire Dark Council based Sith Strike Team.
08. Defeated Jedi Strike Teams.
09. Possessed all living beings on planet Ziost, ranging from normal individuals to powerful Force-users.
10. Atomized all life on planet Ziost.
11. Destroyed the entire environment of planet Ziost.

Hype wise:-

1. Most powerful Force-user ever.
2. Almost godlike avatar of the dark side.
3. The combined might of Dread Masters being insignificant in comparison.
4. Most powerful Sith Lord.

---

Sidious is outgunned.

Originally posted by Selenial
No one else confused as to why Ant's primary reason for placing Sidious at 2, is that he was confirmd as Number one in many sources?
Sources that predate introduction of Vitiate. Common sense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
09. Possessed all living beings on planet Ziost, ranging from normal individuals to powerful Force-users.
10. Atomized all life on planet Ziost.
11. Destroyed the entire environment of planet Ziost..
None of these are true, tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
None of these are true, tbh.
Excuse me?

Vitiate dominates all inhabitants of Ziost:

The Emperor escaped destruction on Yavin 4, and now his presence has been felt on the planet Ziost, once powerful throne world of the Sith Empire. You are called upon again to face this galactic menace when your allies realize that the entire planet's inhabitants have been mind-controlled. And while the Emperor's ultimate plan is still unknown, you do know he must be stopped.

Source: http://www.swtor.com/blog/welcome-game-update-3.2-rise-emperor

Vitiate's power atomizes all life on Ziost:

http://i62.tinypic.com/xbiuc5.png

Vitiate's power destroys the atmosphere of Ziost:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2mcssb5.png

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
None of these are true, tbh.

Aren't you the one who posted the sources saying he'd possessed all life on Ziost just a few days ago?

@LeGenD: You don't need to act so offended, bro.

9.) He didn't possess any of the protags, Lana, Theron, or the Republic spy. So instead of "all," 99%.
10.) Not true. Even in your picture, some of the trees and flowered remained. They were merely sucked of their life, energy, and color.
Also, around 30 bodies of Imperial soldiers survived, actually. They were greatly disfigured into black Darth Sion's, but they weren't turned into ash. Some of them even still had genetic information in them.
11.) Perhaps I misunderstand what you meant. I mean that the atmosphere was still livable, and that the Force was still present.

So Ziost isn't another Natemha? Interesting.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@LeGenD: You don't need to act so offended, bro.

09.) He didn't possess any of the protags, Lana, Theron, or the Republic spy. So instead of "all," 99%.
10.) Not true. Even in your picture, some of the trees and flowered remained. They were merely sucked of their life, energy, and color.
Also, around 30 bodies of Imperial soldiers survived, actually. They were greatly disfigured into black Darth Sion's, but they weren't turned into ash. Some of them even still had genetic information in them.
11.) Perhaps I misunderstand what you meant. I mean that the atmosphere was still livable, and that the Force was still present.
09.) Protags arrive after Vitiate had dominated all individuals on Ziost (confirmed in the information that I provided). Nonetheless, their arrival doesn't refutes earlier developments on Ziost and Vitiate's potential to dominate an entire planet, should he desire.

10.) Well, most of the living beings evaporated upon contact with Vitiate's power. It is possible that bodies of a few individuals remained intact to some extent but this may be due to their position at the time of Vitiate's power spreading around the planet.

11.) I am considering demonstrated story-elements only. Game mechanics are not realistic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
09.) Protags arrive after Vitiate had dominated all individuals on Ziost. Nonetheless, their arrival doesn't refutes earlier developments and Vitiate's potential to dominate an entire planet, should he desire.

10.) Well, most of the living beings evaporated upon contact with Vitiate's power. It is possible that bodies of a few individuals remained intact to some extent but this may be due to their position at the time of Vitiate's power spreading around the planet.

11.) I am considering story-elements only. Game mechanics are not realistic.

9 is incorrect.
So is 11, it's stated in a cutscene that the atmosphere is livable and transport to the surface is safe.

9.) Eh... not really.
10.) See, no reason to get all fussy.
11.) Nah, the atmosphere was canonically breathable.
I can neither confirm nor deny the Force, but considering they fight two giant Monoliths, it probably is still present.

Originally posted by Sinious
So Ziost isn't another Natemha? Interesting.

No one ever listens to me do they?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
9.) Eh... not really.
10.) See, no reason to get all fussy.
11.) Nah, the atmosphere was canonically breathable.
I can neither confirm nor deny the Force, but considering they fight two giant Monoliths, it probably is still present.

If you take fight mechanics as canon, which you do, then Vitiate didn't even fully drain the planet as one of the Monoliths both awakens and drains ancient energies.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Expected better from you, honestly.



I've never denied DE Sidious' superiority over Vitiate as a combatant even when I first joined the forums and sincerely believed that Vitiate might have surpassed him in the force(which I don't anymore).



Most of these are not combat applicable.



Obviously, most powerful force user ever applies to the history of the republic and Sidious has better hype compared to the other accolades you've listed.



Nah.

Originally posted by Selenial
9 is incorrect.
So is 11, it's stated in a cutscene that the atmosphere is livable and transport to the surface is safe.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
9.) Eh... not really.
10.) See, no reason to get all fussy.
11.) Nah, the atmosphere was canonically breathable.
I can neither confirm nor deny the Force, but considering they fight two giant Monoliths, it probably is still present.
How is (9.) incorrect when I have cited official disclosure as evidence?

11.) Monoliths are monsters, not Force-users.

Also, is their de-coloration on Ziost after the events depicted in the video?

I meant that I can't imagine them beating the monoliths without the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How is (9.) incorrect when I have cited official disclosure as evidence?

11.) Monoliths are monsters, not Force-users.

Also, is their de-coloration on Ziost after the events depicted in the video?

Because Beniko talks about it to the Protags when they first land, that as more of them are killed he gains enough power to corrupt more citizens, spreading across the world. That means it's still happening.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How about tearing the surface from worlds, y'know, obliterating the top surface layer. I think its pretty clear.

And we see Sidious' Force storms obliterating fleets and the damage it caused (inadvertently to Coruscant) was such that the planet still hadn't recovered 6 years later.

However if your going to claim ambiguity, then you can't make assumptions e.g. the Sith Emperor's showing his more impressive.

Please explain how tearing obliterating everything on the surface of a planet is less impressive than merely obliterating all life on a planet.

I don't. Tearing off how much of the surface? The surface of a planet is an ambiguous description and who even knows how accurate or hyperbolic that is given that he's never actually done it. Like I said we saw the Force Storm "tearing the surface off" a planet and it was nothing special. If Sidious is just destroying buildings and maybe a meter or two of ground then thats hardly in Ziosts league.

Obliterating fleets is nothing compared to ravaging an entire planet. Ziost is likely a thousand times larger than any fleet Sidious destroyed, or more.

That.... really isn't how this works. I'm not assuming anything, I'm making a judgement based on the evidence. Saying that Vitiate's showings are more impressive that Sidious' isn't an assumption if he's demonstrated something in excess of what Sidious has.

Like I said, Sidious' attack is miniscule compared to Vitiate's. Sidious' Force Storm has never been shown to be anywhere near the scale of Ziost's destruction, so he can only be said to be capable of destroying a small part of a planet at any one point, whereas Vitiate's single technique obliterated Ziost. I don't see why I need to explain this to you again, my previous explanation was perfectly valid. If I can hoover up a carpet slowly with a small nozzle but you can hoover up the entire carpet in one go with a massive hoover... thing then your hoover is better.

Originally posted by Sinious
I've never denied DE Sidious' superiority over Vitiate as a combatant even when I first joined the forums and sincerely believed that Vitiate might have surpassed him in the force(which I don't anymore).
If Sidious have superiors showings, then mention them.

Originally posted by Sinious
Most of these are not combat applicable.
Nonsense.

7 - 11 are all combat-applicable feats.

Others are general demonstrations of Vitiate's power.

Originally posted by Sinious
Obviously, most powerful force user ever applies to the history of the republic and Sidious has better hype compared to the other accolades you've listed.
Some of Sidious's accolades have been overruled by introduction of Son and Abeloth to the mythos. I don't see you arguing about Sidious's superiority over these two.

Originally posted by Sinious
Nah.
Yes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I meant that I can't imagine them beating the monoliths without the Force.
Look! Ziost remains hospitable due to the requirement of MMO and its mechanics. BioWare cannot simulate Ziost as an inhospitable planet in an MMO. Ponder over this.

Story-wise, Ziost is done and dusted.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Sidious have superiors showings, then mention them.

Blitzing the B-Team.
Utterly toying with Savage and Maul.
Stalemating Yoda.
Lightning so powerful it overwhelmed Yoda himself and easily took out TFU I Starkiller who's power in the force is immense.

These were only his famous onscreen feats. I can go on with more feats like:

Creates force storms that can destroy fleets.
Can turn force users and sithspawns into ash.
Has very good TP and mind reading.
Has such a mastery over lightning that even when he applies it areally, he can keep the targets he chooses from getting hurt etc.


See these are all purely combat applicable showings unlike most of the stuff you've listed.



No, only 8 is.




How could they be overruled by a lesser authority?

Cause it is G-Canon that says so. Besides, their depiction and showings make it obvious tbh.

Originally posted by Sinious
and easily took out TFU I Starkiller who's power in the force is immense.

Uh,,,,

Watch/play the dark side ending.

Before this gets too far, I want to go ahead and preempt the "ambiguous language" bullshit. Neph, this is supposed to be a fun, honest discussion. You complain all the time about the trolling and mockery that spawns in threads. All comments like that are going to do is incite a perpetual pissing contest involving every quote ever uttered by both characters. Tearing the surfaces off worlds is pretty clear and doesn't require exact digits.

In the spirit of honesty, take that shit elsewhere. If you can't respect that, please don't post.

What if I merely said that Sidious has never been shown actually doing that so the extent to which he could tear surfaces off is unknown? I think that's a valid point about the fact that the statement is unsubstantiated.

I think it's perfectly valid to question the speed with which Sidious could raze planetary surfaces vis a vis Vitiate.

Originally posted by Sinious
Blitzing the B-Team.
Its a lightsaber combat feat.

Originally posted by Sinious
Utterly toying with Savage and Maul.
No, it is a proper fight.

-7hBZNsPnyg

Also, Darth Sidious knocked out Savage Opress first and then proceeded to dominate Darth Maul. Essentially, one at a time.

In comparison, watch this:

0GalABjUCig

Emperor Vitiate overwhelmed some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order (simultaneously), with his Force powers. In short, Vitiate doesn't even needs a lightsaber to defeat powerful opponents.

Originally posted by Sinious
Stalemating Yoda.
Doesn't compares to Vitiate's greatest showings in combat.

Originally posted by Sinious
Lightning so powerful it overwhelmed Yoda himself and easily took out TFU I Starkiller who's power in the force is immense.
Starkiller wasn't overwhelmed by Sidious's Force Lightning in official version of the encounter. Yoda was showing signs of aging.

Vitiate overwhelmed Revan with his Force Lightning Storm, a Jedi Master who had earlier successfully deflected Darth Nyriss's Force Lightning Storm that was capable of destroying powerful Force-users such as Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik.

Originally posted by Sinious
These were only his famous onscreen feats. I can go on with more feats like:

Creates force storms that can destroy fleets.
Dread Masters could also destroy fleets.

http://www.junkiesnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Oricon-Flyby-e13807201074281.png

And yet:

"The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor."

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan

Originally posted by Sinious
Can turn force users and sithspawns into ash.
The former are acolytes of unknown defensive capabilities. The latter is a creature which is no match for the power of the dark side.

I am confident that even Darth Nyriss can match these feats, should she try.

Originally posted by Sinious
Has very good TP and mind reading.
Same is true for Vitiate.

In-fact, Vitiate have superior showings in the matters of telepathic subjugation.

Originally posted by Sinious
Has such a mastery over lightning that even when he applies it areally, he can keep the targets he chooses from getting hurt etc.
Sounds like a CONTROL feat.

Well, Vitiate 'controlled' Nathema ritual related developments.

Originally posted by Sinious
See these are all purely combat applicable showings unlike most of the stuff you've listed.
Yes, but Vitiate have superior combat-applicable showings.

Originally posted by Sinious
No, only 8 is.
You are mistaken or you haven't played the game.

From (7 - 11) combat-applicable showings, only 7th is off-screen event. The rest are on-screen events.

Originally posted by Sinious
How could they be overruled by a lesser authority?
Son is a canon creation and have accolade of being stronger then any Force-user whom Jedi have met in Canon continuity. Abeloth is Mother and much stronger then Luke Skywalker in Legends continuity.

Originally posted by Sinious
Cause it is G-Canon that says so. Besides, their depiction and showings make it obvious tbh.
G-canon argument is invalid. It is now Disney Canon and Legends.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Its a lightsaber combat feat.


No, it is a proper fight.

-7hBZNsPnyg

Also, Darth Sidious knocked out Savage Opress first and then proceeded to dominate Darth Maul. Essentially, one at a time.

In comparison, watch this:

0GalABjUCig

Emperor Vitiate overwhelmed some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order (simultaneously), with his Force powers. Vitiate doesn't even needs a lightsaber to defeat powerful opponents.
I suggest you rewatch the first part of their encounter on Mandalore.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I suggest you rewatch the first part of their encounter on Mandalore.
I did.

If that is an argument that Asajj Ventress once choked both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi simultaneously.

Choking action doesn't necessarily translates to victory or superiority.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD



Starkiller wasn't overwhelmed by Sidious's Force Lightning. Yoda was showing signs of aging.

To clarify, he didn't say Sidious overwhelmed Starkiller, he said that he destroyed him with it. Which in the LS ending he obviously died and the DS ending he just got wrecked.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-05-2015/M7ispr.gif

Either way Sidious killed/dominated Galen who was a powerful Force User.

That was a cool .gif, Zen.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I did.

If that is an argument that Asajj Ventress once choked both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi simultaneously.

Choking action doesn't necessarily translates to victory or superiority.

Blah blah "ground realities" blah blah. There's the thread for Sidious's fight with the Zabraks. The evidence says it wasn't a fight, but a merciless stomp. If you want to argue that, do it there.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
To clarify, he didn't say Sidious overwhelmed Starkiller, he said that he destroyed him with it. Which in the LS ending he obviously died and the DS ending he just got wrecked.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-05-2015/M7ispr.gif

Either way Sidious killed/dominated Galen who was a powerful Force User.
Well, this is not official version of the encounter. It doesn't holds water.

In the official version of the encounter, Starkiller willingly became one with the Force, in an attempt to protect his allies from death alongside confronting Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, this is not official version of the encounter. It doesn't holds water.

In the official version of the encounter, Starkiller willingly became one with the Force.

No one's claiming that the dark side ending is "the official version." The dark side ending merely reflects the outcome of a different decision on the part of the player. No reason why characters' abilities would fluctuate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, this is not official version of the encounter. It doesn't holds water.

In the official version of the encounter, Starkiller willingly became one with the Force, in an attempt to protect his allies from death alongside confronting Darth Sidious.

Right but what I'm saying is, either way you look at it. Galen died from Force Lighting or got wrecked with Force Lighting.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Right but what I'm saying is, either way you look at it. Galen died from Force Lighting or got wrecked with Force Lighting.

Sidious was trying to convert Starkiller in the light side ending, pulling the same stunt he later tries with Luke in Episode VI. The dark side ending depicts what happens when he's out for blood.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Blah blah "ground realities" blah blah. There's the thread for Sidious's fight with the Zabraks. The evidence says it wasn't a fight, but a merciless stomp. If you want to argue that, do it there.
Thanks for the share.

All it proves is that Sidious comfortably defeated the Zabrak brothers. Even in this, he knocked out Savage Opress first and then dealt with Maul afterwards.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanks for the share.

All it proves is that Sidious comfortably defeated the Zabrak brothers. Even in this, he knocked out Savage Opress first and then dealt with Maul afterwards.

Yup. No one denies he knocked Maul out and dealt with Opress separately. What's being denied is the claim that he needed to.

Sidious had those two pinned against the wall despite their best efforts to escaped and willingly released them. At no point was he out for the quick kill. He was courting combat.

Anything else to say on the subject needs to go to that thread, Leg. Let's not bog this thread down in tangents.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Right but what I'm saying is, either way you look at it. Galen died from Force Lighting or got wrecked with Force Lighting.
No, Starkiller didn't die from that attack.

After that scene, Sidious gripped the starship of Starkiller's allies and threw it on the Starkiller. The latter still survived but was crippled and had to undergo Vader's treatment.

idiots all of you

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup. No one denies he knocked Maul out and dealt with Opress separately. What's being denied is the claim that he needed to.

Sidious had those two pinned against the wall despite their best efforts to escaped and willingly released them. At no point was he out for the quick kill. He was courting combat.

Anything else to say on the subject needs to go to that thread, Leg. Let's not bog this thread down in tangents.
People tend to interpret some Darth Sidious's showings differently. Discussion on these matters is unavoidable in this thread.

Some are of the opinion that Sidious outright stomped Savage and Maul. I disagree with this notion. I consider stomp as another way to say "one-shot."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I disagree with this notion.

Disagree with it in that thread. The common definition of a "stomp" is an extremely lopsided conflict. Doesn't have to be a literal one-shot.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No one's claiming that the dark side ending is "the official version." The dark side ending merely reflects the outcome of a different decision on the part of the player. No reason why characters' abilities would fluctuate.
Here:

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo.

The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all.

Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.

Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed: Novelization

You tell me?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here:

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo.

The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all.

Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.

Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed: Novelization

You tell me?

Which isn't what happened in the game or the graphic novel. In all three sources, the "official ending" is Sidious is trying to goad Marek to the dark side in an attempt to replace Vader with a potentially stronger apprentice. That's why in all three sources, Sidious is pissed when Marek dies, because not only is he still stuck with Vader, but the rebels now have a martyr.

The dark side ending depicts what happens when Vader is dead and Marek takes a swing at a Sidious who isn't screwing around. It's not the "official ending" in that it didn't actually happen, but Sidious didn't automatically get 2x more powerful for no reason.

In one version, he's playing possum, trying to lure Marek to the dark side. In the other version, he's pissed and beats Marek into submission.

Pretty straightforward.

lascivious |ləˈsivēəs|
adjective
(of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire: he gave her a lascivious wink.


Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Originally posted by Emperordmb
lascivious |ləˈsivēəs|
adjective
(of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire: he gave her a lascivious wink.


Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm LMFAO

#kinky

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, Starkiller didn't die from that attack.

After that scene, Sidious gripped the starship of Starkiller's allies and threw it on the Starkiller. The latter still survived but was crippled and had to undergo Vader's treatment.

...I know, hence why I'm saying he got wrecked by Force Lighting in the DS ending, not that he was killed by it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which isn't what happened in the game or the graphic novel. In all three sources, the "official ending" is Sidious is trying to goad Marek to the dark side in an attempt to replace Vader with a potentially stronger apprentice. That's why in all three sources, Sidious is pissed when Marek dies, because not only is he still stuck with Vader, but the rebels now have a martyr.

The dark side ending depicts what happens when Vader is dead and Marek takes a swing at a Sidious who isn't screwing around. It's not the "official ending" in that it didn't actually happen, but Sidious didn't automatically get 2x more powerful for no reason.

In one version, he's playing possum, trying to lure Marek to the dark side. In the other version, he's pissed and beats Marek into submission.

Pretty straightforward.
For the sake of reaching a middle-ground, acknowledged that Sidious > Marek. Even this demonstration doesn't holds water to Vitiate's greatest combat-applicable showings.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For the sake of reaching a middle-ground, acknowledged that Sidious > Marek. Even this demonstration doesn't holds water to Vitiate's greatest combat-applicable showings.

You thought Sidious wasn't > Starkiller?

"Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious." {The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia}

Sidious is definitely > Starkiller. The dark side ending just shows to the true extent.

^^^

Oh no, I never doubted Sidious's superiority over Starkiller. I regard official version of the confrontation as more realistic.

Coz, if we consider alternate endings as accurate portrayals of character's capabilities then Anakin Skywalker was strong enough to defeat and overthrow Darth Sidious and take his place as the Emperor in a game covering ROTS related events.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Oh no, I never doubted Sidious's superiority over Starkiller. I regard official version of the confrontation as more realistic.

Coz, if we consider alternate endings then Anakin Skywalker defeated and killed Darth Sidious in the game covering ROTS related events.

That's not true, Leg. The dark side ending has Anakin stabbing Sidious in the chest with a sneak attack.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's not true, Leg. The dark side ending has Anakin stabbing Sidious in the chest with a sneak attack.
Here:

o1N3h6Mty7c

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here:

o1N3h6Mty7c

That's just a Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy mod, Leg. It's there in the video's description.

Ouch.

So wait did Vitiate just nom the planet as a Force spirit without prep?

I have updated Vitiate's profile on comicvine: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/emperor-vitiate-respect-thread/97466/

1. RotS Sidious
2. Vitiate (perhaps)
3. Caedus
4. Plagueis
5. Krayt/Vader

Originally posted by Stigma
1. RotS Sidious
2. Vitiate (perhaps)
3. Caedus
4. Plagueis
5. Krayt/Vader
No.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.
You're cute

Ziost is destroyed.... then appears later on countless times in the lore? mkay.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am referring to the battle between the Dread Masters and an entire Republic fleet that was dispatched for Oricon.

This Republic fleet ended-up obliterated.

You can check some remains of this Republic fleet floating around Oricon:

http://www.junkiesnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Oricon-Flyby-e13807201074281.pngI'd like an explicit quote, or its guesswork at best.Far less so than its inferiority to Emperor's ritual, which you've fail to provide solid basis would require more power.

Need I also add it can rend the very fabric of time and space?

Its destructive power is superior in every respect.
Do you understand what an assumption is? Your assuming that because Darth Sidious has not done it he cannot. You have no basis for claiming as much as therefore your options are as follows:

1. You assume nothing i.e. that Darth Sidious cannot do this and is therefore inferior to the Sith Emperor, because you have no proof.

2. You accept the likelihood that he could, and Vitiate's inferiority.
In the contexts of Darth Sidious, the only person he'd ever seen use this power.

Note, their is a difference between never having done so, and having the power to do so, learn it.I've provided my proof, provide yours tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't. Tearing off how much of the surface? The surface of a planet is an ambiguous description and who even knows how accurate or hyperbolic that is given that he's never actually done it. Like I said we saw the Force Storm "tearing the surface off" a planet and it was nothing special. If Sidious is just destroying buildings and maybe a meter or two of ground then thats hardly in Ziosts league.The surface i.e. the entire thing. Just as when you say the chair you don't refer to part of the chair but the whole thing.

So if he's tearing off the surface its the whole thing, if it were parts of the surface he wouldn't even be torn of, the surface would be damaged or scarred. Luke also claims it can kill worlds, not parts of worlds, entire worlds.

And Sidious wasn't even trying to damage Coruscant so I fail to see your point.
I'm pointing out the fact that if it can obliterate a fleet, it should be able to burrow through solid earth.
Yes you are, your not just saying the Sith Emperor's showings are more impressive, your saying that because the Sith Emperor's showings are more impressive, he is more powerful, because evidently Darth Sidious doesn't have the strength to achieve them.

That's an assumption, because its not evident.
Sidious never had cause to destroy an entire planet, nor did he every dispatch a Force storm with the intent of doing harm to a planet. There is no proof that a Force storm could not cause damage to large amounts of a planet, if not the entire thing, its a possibility, if not even a likelihood.

At this point, I should just probably link Beni's profile in my bio.

Your entire argument is the most bias thing I have ever read. Like heck, you make fun of LeGenD so much... this is on an entire new level.
You claim because character A never showed the feat, it can therefore not be used as a feat against him, and that he could probably do it too.
I don't think I need to even explain why this is total BS...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
At this point, I should just probably link Beni's profile in my bio.

Your entire argument is the most bias thing I have ever read. Like heck, you make fun of LeGenD so much... this is on an entire new level.
You claim because character A never showed the feat, it can therefore not be used as a feat against him, and that he could probably do it too.
I don't think I need to even explain why this is total BS... Lol I never said X could probably do it too, I said quite explicitly you can't assume either way.

I'm saying that if you can't make a comparison, you can't make assumptions, and it's true you can't.

But good to see you've finally managed to articulate yourself.

Again with the negatives.

@ Legend

Regarding the Zabraks vs Sidious:

The fact that it wasn't a one-shot stomp makes it even more impressive. I usually compare the fight to Vitiate vs Revan. Sidious could've one-shotted them from the beginning just like Vitiate could to Revan. However, they both tried to toy with their enemies first. Sidious by dueling and Vitiate with the force. Vitiate failed to do so. Revan was too powerful to toy with where Sidious utterly mocked the brothers and was able to keep the fight going as long as he wanted to. It is a more humiliating stomp compared to other force users getting one-shot.

As for Starkiller:

Zenwolf already posted what I was talking about and Tempest explained why it should be taken seriously so I won't explain it again. Sidious single-handedly wrecked Galen who is insanely powerful. Simple as that.

Here is my main argument regarding Vitiate vs Sidious:

They are comparable in the force. Both have immense power and an a deep understanding of the dark side. However, in DE Palpatine has surpassed any other sith in force powers. It would still be an excellent force fight between the two though. But, Vitiate is not a master of close ranged combat where Sidious is the greatest of all times in this regard as well. The slight superiority in the force + being tiers above in dueling will guarantee Sidious the victory.

How do you defeat a living sith spirit that refuses to take a body and can ritually annihilate a planet?

Originally posted by Stigma
1. RotS Sidious
2. Vitiate (definitely)


This pleases me.

There's already proof that Force storms can tear the surfaces off worlds and the wording is very clear. Pursuing that line of inquiry is a waste of time.

Originally posted by psmith81992
How do you defeat a living sith spirit that refuses to take a body and can ritually annihilate a planet?

Are we talking about the formless spirit Vitiate? We have very little information on him and how he does what he does. I'm not even sure what kind of an existence he has become tbh. I was talking about SWTOR Vitiate but didn't disregard his new feats for the sake of argument.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Again with the negatives. What's your point?Originally posted by The_Tempest
There's already proof that Force storms can tear the surfaces off worlds and the wording is very clear. Pursuing that line of inquiry is a waste of time. On the topic of Force storms, Sidious actually partially mastered this technique prior to Dark Empire.

So it could be applied to ROTJ Sidious as well.

That nobody takes your "argument" seriously because it's not a legitimate debating tactic. You're just wasting space..


Yea no. Even Gideon wouldn't reach that far. Your assumptions are hysterical.

OK, lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd like an explicit quote, or its guesswork at best.
Hint: Oricon quest giver.

O4NP6x0ZKPo

The Dread Masters casted powerful images on a Republic task force (fleet) and this resulted in the devastation of the task force.

The remains of starships floating around Oricon belong to the referred task force.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Far less so than its inferiority to Emperor's ritual, which you've fail to provide solid basis would require more power.
Nathema ritual event made it apparent that it may take around 8000 mortals to ravage an entire planet with power of the dark side. Emperor Vitiate pulled-off a matching feat after the span of centuries (1000+ years) of growth in power and exploration of the darkest depths of the dark side.

In contrast, Darth Sidious never had centuries to grow in power.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Need I also add it can rend the very fabric of time and space?
Because it is a wormhole.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Its destructive power is superior in every respect.
Not denying the destructive potential but it have never been conjured on a scale that would be sufficient to ravage an entire planet.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do you understand what an assumption is? Your assuming that because Darth Sidious has not done it he cannot. You have no basis for claiming as much as therefore your options are as follows:

1. You assume nothing i.e. that Darth Sidious cannot do this and is therefore inferior to the Sith Emperor, because you have no proof.

2. You accept the likelihood that he could, and Vitiate's inferiority.
1. Sidious admitted his shortcoming in controlling Force Storm (Wormhole) power in the book of anger. This implies that Sidious is not capable of conjuring this power on a scale that he would ravage an entire planet with it. Your point is moot.

2. Vitiate's superiority is solid; he have documented evidence of ravaging an entire planet with his powers under his belt.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In the contexts of Darth Sidious, the only person he'd ever seen use this power.
Yes, but this doesn't changes the fact that Sidious never managed to ravage an entire planet with this power. Luke Skywalker's opinion, remains an opinion.

Darth Rivan also conjured a Force Storm (Wormhole) with aid from the Dark Staff. The power conjured was so intense that it teleported Rivan to future and sapped his powers, but it didn't destroy the planet that Rivan inhabited. It destroyed Rivan's army at maximum.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Note, their is a difference between never having done so, and having the power to do so, learn it.I've provided my proof, provide yours tbh.
Here:

"I admit I am not yet able to completely control this phenomenon." (Book of Anger, Darth Sidious)

pre-prime Sidious bending the will of the Force > Vitiate's feats

How does an "implication" make a point moot, Leg.?

Originally posted by psmith81992
That nobody takes your "argument" seriously because it's not a legitimate debating tactic. You're just wasting space..


Yea no. Even Gideon wouldn't reach that far. Your assumptions are hysterical.

Actually, there is a source that says Sidious opened a wormhole or some such in ROTJ. I'll find it for you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
How does an "implication" make a point moot, Leg.?



Actually, there is a source that says Sidious opened a wormhole or some such in ROTJ. I'll find it for you.

Go ahead. Looks like you have your legend too lol.

Originally posted by Stigma
pre-prime Sidious bending the will of the Force > Vitiate's feats

Exactly. Right now we are comparing Vitiate's uber yet not combat applicable feats to Sidious' pure combat feats.

If we take into account the stuff that Sidious did outside of combat, his superiority would be even clearer.

Originally posted by Sinious
Exactly. Right now we are comparing Vitiate's uber yet not combat applicable feats to Sidious' pure combat feats.

If we take into account the stuff that Sidious did outside of combat, his superiority would be even clearer.

Sidious' combat feats>Vitiate's combat feats
Vitiate's force feats>Sidious' force feats.

Sidious' combat force feats > Vitiate's combat force feats

Originally posted by psmith81992
Go ahead. Looks like you have your legend too lol.

Not sure why you're comparing Beni to Leg.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467

I'm typing from my iPhone so I'm limited with formatting and quoting, but the source is from Star Wars Gamer #5 and the quote is in this thread. I can paste it later if you don't wanna look.

Originally posted by Sinious
Sidious' combat force feats > Vitiate's combat force feats

That's fine. Vitiate's not a combatant. He just wipes everyone out.


The amount of reaching and baseless assertions? Lol. And no I don't want to look. I already looked and I'm not sure what I am looking at.

Originally posted by Sinious
Here is my main argument regarding Vitiate vs Sidious:

They are comparable in the force. Both have immense power and an a deep understanding of the dark side. However, in DE Palpatine has surpassed any other sith in force powers. It would still be an excellent force fight between the two though. But, Vitiate is not a master of close ranged combat where Sidious is the greatest of all times in this regard as well. The slight superiority in the force + being tiers above in dueling will guarantee Sidious the victory.
This demonstration:

2ovjnTCk_vs

+

This revelation:

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

- proves that Vitiate have surpassed any other Sith in Force powers.

---

And Vitiate have best showings in close-ranged combat, I have provided ample proof. Fact is that Vitiate is so powerful and potent with his Force abilities, that he doesn't needs a lightsaber to defeat and kill enemies.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Sidious' combat feats>Vitiate's combat feats
Vitiate's force feats>Sidious' force feats.

How so?

Originally posted by Sinious
Sidious' combat force feats > Vitiate's combat force feats
No, they aren't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Hint: Oricon quest giver.

O4NP6x0ZKPo

The Dread Masters casted powerful images on a Republic task force (fleet) and this resulted in the devastation of the task force.

The remains of starships floating around Oricon belong to the referred task force.Yes but they didn't TK it apart, they just used mind domination to cause them to loose control. Anyway, its not really relevant.
1. The Book of Anger was written prior to the events of Dark Empire, where he claimed to have mastered the technique.

Furthermore, Sidious also says:

It may take decades to master this art, but once I have perfected it, I will be invincible.

--The Book of Sith

The implication being that Sidious already had the necessary strength to master this power, he merely needed time to practice. If he were not strong enough, he would not be confident that he could perfect this ability.

So no, the implication is it was within Sidious power, to achieve this ability in its entirety, including its ability to kill worlds.

2. I don't deny that, I'm questioning your solid proof that Sidious couldn't replicate it.Not never managed, never required, Sidious never aimed nor tried to destroy an entire planet with the Force, but that doesn't mean he was incapable of doing so.

Take into account authorial intentions, that opinion was provided to prove a point, that a Force storm has the power to kill worlds, and that power was held by Darth Sidious, if the authors wanted us to doubt this, they would have given us reason to.

In terms of Darth Rivan:
He had no intention of killing a planet, it is clear that the Force storm can take many forms, varying in size and purpose.

Darth Rivan ended up meeting his death as a result of this, it is obvious he was dabbling in powers he had no mastery over.

It is unlikely the power Rivan gathered in the Darkstaff was equal to that of Sidious' own power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
How so?
Vitiate's greatest force feats:-

1. Corrupted the atmosphere of planet Dromund Kaas with his powers.
2. Prevented the Jedi Order to identify his minions (i.e. Children) for centuries with his Force concealment powers.
3. Telepathically dominated all living beings on planet Ziost.
4. Ravaged an entire planet (i.e. Ziost) with his powers, atomizing many living beings in the process.

Vitiate's greatest combat showings:-

1. Stomped an entire Dark Council.
2. Stomped a powerful Jedi Strike Team.
3. Defeated Revan. Even had the capability to defeat the trio of Revan, Meetra, and Scourge simultaneously.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not sure why you're comparing Beni to Leg.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467

I'm typing from my iPhone so I'm limited with formatting and quoting, but the source is from Star Wars Gamer #5 and the quote is in this thread. I can paste it later if you don't wanna look. I found it for you:

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5

However I was referring to the Book of Anger, where Sidious says he has learned the Force storm technique.

Yea that's not a force storm. That's essence transfer traveling at very fast speeds.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
01. Survived in a ritual that destroyed 8000 other Sith Lord participants.

That would be because it was him performing the ritual on said Sith Lords.



Not really special for these high tiers, tbh.



Not really special for these high tiers, tbh.



Quote for thousands, tbh?



Quote for thousands, tbh?



Under unknown circumstances.



So did RotS Sidious



Proof that he posessed them all at once? The DLC didn't give me that impression at all, tbh, which is probably why you felt the need to italicize "all". Besides, Sidious reportedly mindwiped Byss as well, so I don't see the importance of this tbh.



Except the plants apparently.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This demonstration:

2ovjnTCk_vs




Amazing, I agree but do you think he atomized an entire planet with raw power? I'm pretty sure its another ritualistic application of the force that helped him end the planet. Still very impressive though.




How does that prove what you claim? Do you really wanna start an accolades war? As a big fan of Vitiate, I would rather not.



Vitiate dominated beings lesser to himself with his force powers, I know. He won't be able to do it to Sidious though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The surface i.e. the entire thing. Just as when you say the chair you don't refer to part of the chair but the whole thing.

So if he's tearing off the surface its the whole thing, if it were parts of the surface he wouldn't even be torn of, the surface would be damaged or scarred. Luke also claims it can kill worlds, not parts of worlds, entire worlds.

And Sidious wasn't even trying to damage Coruscant so I fail to see your point.

Not necessarily. If I break a part of a chair, then I can be said to have broken the chair. My point was that technically the surface of a planet is just the visible part of it, it doesn't need to extend deeper than that and it's unsubstantiated how much damage Sidious could do. But Tempy yelled at me for this so I'm not going to push the point even though I'm way the f*ck right and yall should recognise.

Luke is speaking from ignorance. Sidious has never actually done that so Luke cannot know that it can do that. But I already indicated that Sidious could tear the surface off planets, it would just take him a really ****ing long time because his Storm is like a mile wide at most. He cannot encompass the globe in the manner that Vitiate did.

I don't know what Sidious did to Coruscant so I cannot speak of that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm pointing out the fact that if it can obliterate a fleet, it should be able to burrow through solid earth.

Plausibly. He hasn't though. Still, being able to burrow through rock isn't any more impressive than destroying fleets and it doesn't affect my ultimate point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes you are, your not just saying the Sith Emperor's showings are more impressive, your saying that because the Sith Emperor's showings are more impressive, he is more powerful, because evidently Darth Sidious doesn't have the strength to achieve them.

That's an assumption, because its not evident.

That isn't how debating works. Saying that Vitiate is more powerful because he's done something on a level of power above what Sidious has is a totally valid argument that makes for the basis of comparing two characters. Going "well maybe Sidious could do it too" is speculative and hypothetical and is basically complete nonsense that no-one pays any attention to.

It is evident that one character has done one thing. And another has done another thing. And one is more impressive. And the other is not. Dats the truf.

Hilariously though, this is an argument Legend has used time and again for Vitiate. I guess it's true that we all become the things we hate in the end.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sidious never had cause to destroy an entire planet, nor did he every dispatch a Force storm with the intent of doing harm to a planet. There is no proof that a Force storm could not cause damage to large amounts of a planet, if not the entire thing, its a possibility, if not even a likelihood.

Again, this is something Legend has said many times. Psmith is right, I don't need to prove a negative. The imaginary scenario in which Sidious did do that, is imaginary and doesn't matter.


(Legend, I hope you know that I don't mean these comparisons to be insulting to you. It's just that Beni will take it that way, so it's a good way to troll him)


Originally posted by Beniboybling
I found it for you:

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5

However I was referring to the Book of Anger, where Sidious says he has learned the Force storm technique.

Isn't this just fold space? If Sidious learned that technique from the ancient Sith then it can't be Force Storm since didn't Sidious figure that out himself?

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Except the plants apparently.

Thats a pretty weak argument tbh.

It's not a force storm. He's the king of reaching.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Yea that's not a force storm. That's essence transfer traveling at very fast speeds. Again I was just providing the quote Tempest was referring to, the Book of Anger states Sidious has learned the Force storm technique:

With this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that swirl invisibly around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.

So again, Sidious learned this technique pre-DE.

You specifically said ROTJ. Since you can't prove that, move on.

I'm pretty sure the Book of Sith was created before RotJ actually.

Find out. And timeline. Because from what I remember, he did not have this knowledge until after his death at Endor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Before this gets too far, I want to go ahead and preempt the "ambiguous language" bullshit. Neph, this is supposed to be a fun, honest discussion. You complain all the time about the trolling and mockery that spawns in threads. All comments like that are going to do is incite a perpetual pissing contest involving every quote ever uttered by both characters. Tearing the surfaces off worlds is pretty clear and doesn't require exact digits.

In the spirit of honesty, take that shit elsewhere. If you can't respect that, please don't post.

Neph, if you can't drop it, we might as well close this thread and go resume regular business where both sides nitpick and piss and moan about the constant nitpicking and the trolling and mockery that ensues. You wanted honest debate, I'm providing the platform. 👍

He responded to me. And I said that I was dropping it.

Also I don't recall saying I wanted an honest debate, lol. Not that I don't.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes but they didn't TK it apart, they just used mind domination to cause them to loose control. Anyway, its not really relevant.
It's relevant in the sense that it is possible to destroy fleets with powers other then Force Storm (Wormhole).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. The Book of Anger was written prior to the events of Dark Empire, where he claimed to have mastered the technique.

Furthermore, Sidious also says:

It may take decades to master this art, but once I have perfected it, I will be invincible.

--The Book of Sith

The implication being that Sidious already had the necessary strength to master this power, he merely needed time to practice. If he were not strong enough, he would not be confident that he could perfect this ability.

So no, the implication is it was within Sidious power, to achieve this ability in its entirety, including its ability to kill worlds.
I see double-standards here. You want me to acknowledge the possibility of Darth Sidious having the ability to conjure up a Force Storm (Wormhole) large enough to ravage an entire planet, but did you give Emperor Vitiate same benefit of doubt vis-a-vis Revan's assertion about his potential to ravage an entire planet single-handedly? Nope.

So how does it feels to be on the receiving end now? huh?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
2. I don't deny that, I'm questioning your solid proof that Sidious couldn't replicate it.

Not never managed, never required, Sidious never aimed nor tried to destroy an entire planet with the Force, but that doesn't mean he was incapable of doing so.
Solid proof?

Top showings of Sidious's Force Storm (Wormhole) power fall much short of ravaging entire planets in scale. Your argument is Sidious's intent, but why would a Sith Lord hold back from mass destruction with the potential to achieve it?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Take into account authorial intentions, that opinion was provided to prove a point, that a Force storm has the power to kill worlds, and that power was held by Darth Sidious, if the authors wanted us to doubt this, they would have given us reason to.
Depending upon the size of Force Storm (Wormhole) power, it might be possible to ravage an entire world with it. However, Sidious's demonstrations are not on par.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111197689/4179467-1640326-force_storm_1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4293503-1538420241-19944.jpg

A planet is a much larger object.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In terms of Darth Rivan:
He had no intention of killing a planet, it is clear that the Force storm can take many forms, varying in size and purpose.

Darth Rivan ended up meeting his death as a result of this, it is obvious he was dabbling in powers he had no mastery over.

It is unlikely the power Rivan gathered in the Darkstaff was equal to that of Sidious' own power.
1.Darth Rivan's intent is unknown.

2. Because his powers were sapped and he was slain in the battle of Ruusan by virtue of being defenseless.

3. Darkstaff conjured a Force Storm (Wormhole) of such intensity that it teleported Rivan to future.

BTW I just wanted to say that I read through Ant's Dread Master's respect thread recently and they really are bonkers powerful. Anyone saying that Vader or someone can solo them is a ****ing lunatic, those guys are insane. They can teleport, travel through time, revive the dead and do all sorts of crazy feats.

If Vitiate really is more powerful than them collectively he is by far the most powerful Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He responded to me. And I said that I was dropping it.

Also I don't recall saying I wanted an honest debate, lol. Not that I don't.

Ok, let's close the thread. Or better yet, you can just stay out of it and let everyone else who wants to discuss in an honest fashion do so unmolested.

Your cooperation in this respect would be appreciated.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok, let's close the thread. Or better yet, you can just stay out of it and let everyone else who wants to discuss in an honest fashion do so unmolested.

Your cooperation in this respect would be appreciated.

If you actually payed attention instead of throwing a knee-jerk hissy fit you'd see that I actually conceded to most of Beni's points and instead stressed what we agreed was acceptable, that Sidious' hype was unsubstantiated in that he can tear the surfaces off worlds but the extent is unknown.

You're not getting an honest discussion here.

Show 'em how an honest debate is done, Beefy.

You have guys on both sides that exaggerate or flat out make up shit. What do you expect?

I expect a certain homosexual Texan to demonstrate. Rise above, like the rainbow Phoenix he is.

In fact, you and I will do show them when I get off work and have computer access. J

Why can't we all just agree that Sidious is better than Vitiate and live in peace and harmony.

Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW I just wanted to say that I read through Ant's Dread Master's respect thread recently and they really are bonkers powerful. Anyone saying that Vader or someone can solo them is a ****ing lunatic, those guys are insane. They can teleport, travel through time, revive the dead and do all sorts of crazy feats.

If Vitiate really is more powerful than them collectively he is by far the most powerful Sith. I don't think they could time travel, I think it was an illusion...Originally posted by psmith81992
You specifically said ROTJ. Since you can't prove that, move on. Pre-DE is ROTJ lol.

The Book of Anger, one of three volumes of a compendium called Absolute Power was written at the beginning of Darth Sidious reign as Galactic Empire, and prior to his first death aboard the Death Star:

The following three books - The Weakness of Inferiors, The Book of Anger, and The Manipulation of Life - present how I have achieved absolute power, how I shall maintain it through the agency of my Galactic Empire, and how I will reshape the galaxy throughout the ages to come.

So I think I'll stay, thanks.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That would be because it was him performing the ritual on said Sith Lords.
No, All Sith Lords performed the same ritual. Difference is that when the resultant nexus of the dark side spread across the planet, it is at this stage that Emperor Vitiate turned on his allies and utilized the nexus against them.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not really special for these high tiers, tbh.
Did Darth Sidious create one?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not really special for these high tiers, tbh.
Does Sidious have a matching accomplishment?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Quote for thousands, tbh?
Children numbered in hundreds, at minimum:

By the time of the Great War, hundreds of the Emperor's Children were embedded within the Republic. Devoted Jedi, loyal soldiers, and influential politicians all unknowingly served as the Emperor's spies and, when the Emperor willed I, acted to tear down the Republic they held so dear.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Still, a fantastic feat.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Quote for thousands, tbh?
Children and Imperial Guard combined, definitely numbered in thousands.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Under unknown circumstances.
No, it is demonstration of Vitiate's power.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
So did RotS Sidious
Try to comprehend the difference between winning a fight with a lightsaber and without one. Lightsaber makes killing convenient.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Proof that he posessed them all at once? The DLC didn't give me that impression at all, tbh, which is probably why you felt the need to italicize "all". Besides, Sidious reportedly mindwiped Byss as well, so I don't see the importance of this tbh.
Sure:

The Emperor escaped destruction on Yavin 4, and now his presence has been felt on the planet Ziost, once powerful throne world of the Sith Empire. You are called upon again to face this galactic menace when your allies realize that the entire planet's inhabitants have been mind-controlled.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Community News "Welcome to Game Update 3.2: Rise of the Emperor"

+

As the Sith Emperor gradually dominates the free will of everyone on Ziost, both Lana Beniko, Minister of the newly formed Sith Intelligence, and Theron Shan, a spy for the Galactic Republic, are trying to stop the chaos.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

---

Sidious did not mindwipe the entire populace of Byss, at any point in history. You are wrong.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except the plants apparently.
Vitiate's sorcery devastated the atmosphere of the planet, a development that would doom the plants as well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, if you can't drop it, we might as well close this thread and go resume regular business where both sides nitpick and piss and moan about the constant nitpicking and the trolling and mockery that ensues. You wanted honest debate, I'm providing the platform. 👍 Sorry I missed that, however I do believe we could discuss the meaning of the statement civilly...

Exactly, so Vitiate was attacking them, and thus wasn't a victim himself.



He's often linked with Byss, yeah.



So 1/10th of what you were attempting to pass off.



A demonstration that we didn't see.



I daresay the Dark Side of the Force is a more convenient and powerful killing weapon than a laser sword.



Thx.



Temp's probably the one to ask about that, but I think there is mention of it in either the Dark Side Sourcebook or the Dark Empire Sourcebook.



What I was referencing is the fact that the humans seemed to vanish, while the rest of the life on Ziost just died normally as if they were different. Pretty shitty visual choices on BioWare's part, really.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sorry I missed that, however I do believe we could discuss the meaning of the statement civilly...

The meaning is pretty clear: Force storms can tear the surfaces off worlds. Trying to determine (irrelevant) specifics from the statement is pointless and impossible. Could refer to something as random as depth of 12 feet or the entire planetary crust or anything in between.

I don't see how fruitful or productive the conversation will be when nothing can be ascertained with mathematical exactitude.

On the flip side, I see a potential to derail the conversation into nitpicking and dishonesty on both sides. Neph will disregard the quote entirely on the grounds that specifics aren't given, which will open the door for his opponents to put every single quote about Vitiate under scrutiny on the same grounds, which in turn will cause the pro-Vitiate faction to do the same and wham! you have total impasse and the discussion dies.

Palps actually erased the minds of the people of Courscant not Byss, though on Byss he did dominate their minds too.






The Byss feat is this one

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The meaning is pretty clear: Force storms can tear the surfaces off worlds. Trying to determine (irrelevant) specifics from the statement is pointless and impossible. Could refer to something as random as depth of 12 feet or the entire planetary crust or anything in between.

I don't see how fruitful or productive the conversation will be when nothing can be ascertained with mathematical exactitude.

On the flip side, I see a potential to derail the conversation into nitpicking and dishonesty on both sides. Neph will disregard the quote entirely on the grounds that specifics aren't given, which will open the door for his opponents to put every single quote about Vitiate under scrutiny on the same grounds, which in turn will cause the pro-Vitiate faction to do the same and wham! you have total impasse and the discussion dies. I guess that is true.

I suppose then are time would be better spent discussing just how large a Force storm Darth Sidious is capable of creating.

That said, I feel the destructive power of the Force storm, combined with Sidious' evidently planetary reach on Byss, is evidence enough he could unleash a wave of destructive energy on this scale over an entire planet.

Enough damage to "kill" them, certainly. Beyond that, we don't know specifics.

It's always great when Nihilus consuming a planet is just circumstance, but Vitiate doing it makes him the most powerful being in existence.

Originally posted by psmith81992
That nobody takes your "argument" seriously because it's not a legitimate debating tactic. You're just wasting space..

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The meaning is pretty clear: Force storms can tear the surfaces off worlds. Trying to determine (irrelevant) specifics from the statement is pointless and impossible. Could refer to something as random as depth of 12 feet or the entire planetary crust or anything in between.

I don't see how fruitful or productive the conversation will be when nothing can be ascertained with mathematical exactitude.

On the flip side, I see a potential to derail the conversation into nitpicking and dishonesty on both sides. Neph will disregard the quote entirely on the grounds that specifics aren't given, which will open the door for his opponents to put every single quote about Vitiate under scrutiny on the same grounds, which in turn will cause the pro-Vitiate faction to do the same and wham! you have total impasse and the discussion dies.

A) That was exactly my point and

B) I dismissed nothing, I openly admitted he could but that the lack of evidence made it impossible to claim that statement makes Sidious > Vitiate. The Force Storm is still a very powerful ability.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Exactly, so Vitiate was attacking them, and thus wasn't a victim himself.
This doesn't means that Emperor Vitiate was not in danger:

Meetra was no expert on dark side sorcery, but it was safe to assume Vitiate not only survived the ritual, but emerged more powerful than ever.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's often linked with Byss, yeah.
Fair enough.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
So 1/10th of what you were attempting to pass off.
Using maths in these matters is silly.

Now, provide evidence of a matching feat from Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
A demonstration that we didn't see.
Doesn't matters. Vitiate's tremendous power is amply demonstrated on Ziost.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I daresay the Dark Side of the Force is a more convenient and powerful killing weapon than a laser sword.
It should be, but why Sidious commonly utilized a Lightsaber in his confrontations? Was he not confident in his dark side abilities?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Thx.
Welcome.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Temp's probably the one to ask about that, but I think there is mention of it in either the Dark Side Sourcebook or the Dark Empire Sourcebook.
Member Zenwolf provided information. Admittedly, it is very impressive showing from Sidious. However, Vitiate's demonstrations on Ziost are comparatively superior.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What I was referencing is the fact that the humans seemed to vanish, while the rest of the life on Ziost just died normally as if they were different. Pretty shitty visual choices on BioWare's part, really.
It's a demonstration of sorcery.

Sidious' lightsaber prowess is canonically just as great as his Force powers.

"Just as skilled with a lightsaber as his destructive mastery of the Force; Sidious is skilled enough to defeat almost any Jedi who opposes him.
--Star Wars: Force Collection

http://r30.imgfast.net/users/3013/11/32/39/smiles/922207309.gif.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This doesn't means that Emperor Vitiate was not in danger:

Meetra was no expert on dark side sorcery, but it was safe to assume Vitiate not only survived the ritual, but emerged more powerful than ever.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Cool, though it's not overwhelmingly relevant.



It's hardly silly to point out that you were trying to pass his feat off as literally ten times greater than it was.



Sidious operates in different ways than Vitiate, so he doesn't have a feat to match up perfectly... The closest example is probably his Battle Meditation, which is also arguably done on a galactic scale.



Indeed it was. He was able to recreate Nathema without the aid of other Sith, like Revan implied he could.



It was mentioned in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader that Sidious never needed to utilize a lightsaber in his confrontations, but did so to mock the Jedi by beating them in their own games.



I think your case could be argued, indeed.



And I agree that Vitiate is unarguably the greatest Sorcerer in the mythos.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Sidious never needed to utilize a lightsaber in his confrontations, but did so to mock the Jedi by beating them in their own games.


Was about to post this