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Exar Kun
Ulic-Qel Droma
Vodo-Siosk Baas
Nomi Sunrider

vs

Kyp Durron
Saba Sebatyne
Corran Horn
Jaina Solo



All out, neutral ground.

Which team takes it?

Team TOTJ.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Team TOTJ.

Nomi's clearly outclassed as a swordsman here (nor will her Wall of Light work), and sufficient abuse of Force power from Kyp would absolutely wipe out Vodo. Exar could demolish several members of the NJO team himself with his artifacts, but it's not exactly something he would do under standard morals.

NJO

Exar and Ulic are better than any duelists on team 2 (sans Jaina who is their equal), but Nomi is out of her depth and I'd say Corran could probably beat Vodo in a good fight. Nomi is a weak link

Nomi's battle meditation and combative telepathy is slightly underrated here. We are talking about the same woman who tore Aleema Keto's mind apart while she was in her meditation sphere, yes? Nomi providing battle meditation on a smaller scale, but in a more directed fashion would hamper the NJO team pretty profusely.

That's if she could survive a direct encounter with the NJO duelists, and Jaina also knows battle meld which she's used quite effectively herself

She has Exar Kun, Ulic and Vodo covering her while she gets the first assault off with telepathy, or alternatively knocks the flow of battle in her favour with battle meditation. I'd say in this scenario the NJO team is the one in trouble initially.

Hell, Nomi could arguably reduce this to a 4v3 off the bat by choosing someone to assault with her full mental strength. She overpowered Aleema in her most powerful incarnation, whose mental strength is sufficient to form illusions that make capital ship fleets look tiny in comparison. Why couldn't she do it to, say, Corran or Saba?

Mental attacks are Corran's strong suit, he's probably not going to get overwhelmed that way. Corran is worried about TK, not telepathy.

They were Aleema's strong suit too

Corran's mental feats are pretty high, and under the pressure of another duelist, I highly doubt Nomi would manage to Battle Meditation/TP offensively. I mean, this is a morals on duel, so Nomi just using those powers off the bat in of itself is hardly assured, let alone doing so under such unrelenting pressure in a duel.

She could probably break through Saba's mental defenses, but at the same time, she wouldn't survive a physical attack from Saba either.

That's also assuming she isn't destroyed by Kyp's Force powers, as well. I'd say the same for Exar except he doesn't have a tendency to use Force powers in a duel. It's hardly likely that Kyp would just single her out with telekinesis and destroy her, but if he sees what's happening to Saba, then it's certainly a possibility.

I'm not seeing why we're all so eager to talk about why Nomi will be under pressure in a duel when the other team need to actually reach her first. Nomi would get her telepathic assault off first - unless the default setting on this board is to spawn characters within 5 feet of each other - and she does have three others to cover her while she does so. Her morals also denote using mental assaults in combat; it's her forte. She's been able to trick numerous adversaries into fighting each other on a few occasions before they could reach her in melee range.

Saba needs to close the distance. Nomi doesn't. Advantage - Nomi.

If Kyp began using his Force powers to destroy Nomi I have no doubt that Ulic - who cares deeply for Nomi - would respond in kind with his amulet, as well as Exar, whose MO is usually to do so when his opponent brings the Force into the equation. Can't say how it'd all go down for certain, but Force-wise, I favour the TotJ team between Nomi's battle meditation/telepathy, Exar's extremely potent sorcery, and his and Ulic's extremely powerful blasts. Or, the TotJ team could just win in lightsaber combat with Nomi running BM.

I don't know what the default distance is here, but it's generally 5-10m. And Nomi's the slowest here from what I know of her speed feats.

She has the advantage provided that the distance is sufficient for her to do so, but who says she'll mentally attack Saba with the Force specifically?

I meant morals in a lightsaber-based duel, but then, she hasn't exactly had those sorts of fights, so it is hard to judge.

Ulic has never, ever used anything like that in a duel, and assuming Jaina is his opponent, I doubt he would have room to do so. Exar might, but Kyp's still more powerful than him.

And then there's still Corran pulling a Halcyon if he falls, Battle Meld, Shatterpoint, Alter Environment, etc. so TotJ is hardly the only team with tricks up their sleeve. I also doubt TotJ has the superior Force power - nothing implies Ulic is more powerful than Jaina (or by any noticeable margin, at least), while Kyp is more powerful than Exar and Vodo just doesn't hold up in Force power - even Saba beats him in that. Nomi and Corran have different power sets, so it's hard to call, but in the instance in which you described with Nomi being taken out, even if Ulic and Exar let loose with their Force power, I would still doubt that they are the (noticeably) more powerful team.

5-10 meters is adequate space for Nomi to use her brain to think. She doesn't have a charge up time.

I find it puzzling that I'm not allowed to assume it's possible for Nomi to target one person on the other team with telepathy (I didn't necessarily say Saba), but in the same post you assume Ulic's opponent will be Jaina? The broad point I'm making here is that Nomi's telepathy is at least enough to give her team an advantage that can't be adequately dealt with, whether that means battle meditation, her targeting one person with telepathy, etc, etc.

However, he is prone to using the Force when his emotions are brought into the equation, as we've seen several times. If we go with your scenario where Kyp annihilates Nomi, then the other team can expect a lethal amulet blast in return.
I'm not sure what you meant by this.

Edit:

How exactly is Battle Meld, Shatterpoint or etc more useful than someone whose telepathy/battle meditation can destroy extremely powerful sorcerers while they're in a meditation chamber, and change the tide of battles containing thousands of soldiers?

There's certainly plenty of "implication" that he's more powerful than her; it's implied he's second only to Kun as far as "Dark Lords of the Sith" are concerned, which back then simply meant all of the Ancient Sith who held that title. It's acknowledged by Exar and objective sources that Ulic's power was a rival for Exar's once they both got their hands on an amulet - Exar being more powerful than Jaina as I'm sure we agree.

Feats-wise? There's the fact Ulic was regarded as the most powerful Jedi prior to him joining the Krath, which includes powerful Jedi like Odan-Urr (who can Force Sever Sith as well as telepathically address thousands of Jedi simultaneously as well as link their minds), Thon (who was able to cast a Wall of Light powerful enough to contain the dark side energies encompassing all of Ambria to just a lake, albeit over time, but still) and Tott Doneeta (who was able to temporarily hold back a Ryloth heat storm which was quite literally destroying an entire town). There's also the fact he shrugged off Ommin's sorcery despite already being pre-prime and in a dark-side rich environment. Or him maintaining a barrier which deflected laser cannon blasts powerful enough to damage Naga Sadow's capital ship.

So, yeah. Ulic is probably more powerful than Jaina in a raw sense, and his raw outbursts of power tend to be pretty potent when he's prompted to use them.

He's more powerful in a raw sense, but Exar beats him out combatively in terms of offensive and defensive powers.
Dude, if Exar and Ulic let loose their Force power the other team would get annihilated. We're talking about two guys using amulets that focus, concentrate, and amplify their already impressive raw power into blasts of energy, and one whose sorcery is too much for anyone on the other team to handle. If Kyp wipes out Nomi with the Force, then it goes from being a 3v3 to a TotJ victory pretty quickly.

1. Sure, but it's not as if dropping her telepathically would be easy.

2. Jaina's just an example. And her advantage isn't "inadequately dealt with" at all. She's completely vulnerable in that state, and if we had ten rounds, it's not as if she'd just abandon her saber immediately to retire into telepathic assaults every time, and probably not even for a majority. Battle Meditation is at least plausible, but it's not insurmountable by any means. And as I said, the NJO team have their own share of abilities they can use.

3. His loss of control involved a telekinetic burst, if that's what you're referring to, and that would probably only be devastating to Saba/Corran.

4. I'm referring to him replicating his grandfather's showing by absorbing a lightsaber blade and unleashing TK/TP/Illusion of a vast scale in death.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Sure, but it's not as if dropping her telepathically would be easy.

2. Jaina's just an example. And her advantage isn't "inadequately dealt with" at all. She's completely vulnerable in that state, and if we had ten rounds, it's not as if she'd just abandon her saber immediately to retire into telepathic assaults every time, and probably not even for a majority. Battle Meditation is at least plausible, but it's not insurmountable by any means. And as I said, the NJO team have their own share of abilities they can use.

3. His loss of control involved a telekinetic burst, if that's what you're referring to, and that would probably only be devastating to Saba/Corran.

4. I'm referring to him replicating his grandfather's showing by absorbing a lightsaber blade and unleashing TK/TP/Illusion of a vast scale in death. 1. ..easier than getting past Exar Kun's saberstaff.

2. I disagree, her advantage isn't adequately dealt with. The other team have no telepathic defence to prevent Nomi from doing to them what she did to Aleema, someone who specializes in the field of telepathy. And alternatively she can weaken all of them in one go with battle meditation, which is going to really suck for them. I'll take three Maul-tier duelists who are amplified over the weakened NJO team in this thread any day of the week, seeing as Jaina is the only one who can match any of them on neutral terms. Now she's weakened and they're amped, and her only support are three duelists who are already substantially weaker on regular terms, never mind Battle Med terms.

I just don't see the argument for Nomi's BM being prevented.

3. There's that and the time he nearly killed Nomi and co. with his amulet. And the time he blew apart his torture restraints. Not seeing why Ulic unleashing his Force power wouldn't be devastating to anyone who fails to raise a defence to it.

4. Interesting. So Corran's plan is to absorb his own lightsaber blade, die, and then oneshot the other team with telepathy? Not seeing it.

1. I was talking about Force power. And it's not as if the saberstaff is more unorthodox than a form which isn't even one of the Jedi's traditional ones (Jaina), or Trakta (Corran).

2. Well for one, telepathic defense isn't solely based on sheer TP ability, but also one's willpower, so I'm confident it's not easy for her to break Saba, who is the weakest of the four mentally and in the Force as a whole. I mean, even if it succeeded, it would take time, and in that time, both Nomi and Saba would be out of this fight, which still leaves a 3 v 3. Battle Meditation still makes more sense to me. I mean, her display against Aleema seemed to be initiated because Aleema was exercising her own mental powers. Without the Jedi exercising their own mental strength, there's absolutely no incentive for her to use her mental powers off the bat.

That, and as I said, you're speaking of it as if she certainly will just abandon her saber and retire to a corner of the field to unleash these mental assaults. That's just not happening every time, lol. If Kyp makes use of Alter Environment, the completely vulnerable Nomi is getting eliminated, and I'd say a combination of more lightning strikes and the remaining NJO members' attacks would keep Vodo, Ulic and Exar from stopping Nomi's demise.

They're all Maul-tier duelists, just on a lower scale. And they're not substantially less skilled by any means, considering that Qui-Gon, who likely isn't even in the same tier as Maul, gave him trouble - he's also not as good as the NJO team. Also, Vodo can be dropped eventually in sabers or quickly in Force as well. You're hugely underrating not only the NJO team, but also the potency of numbers, since it's still a 4 v 3 with the Battle Meditation, and Vodo can still be demolished Force-wise. And by all means, an additional member is still plenty, even if they're not on the level of an amped TotJ member. That being said, they can coordinate themselves with Battle Meld, detect faults with Shatterpoint, etc.

3. Maybe because they can raise a defense against it? I'm talking about Jaina and Kyp.

4. lol, no. I meant if he gets fatally stabbed, he could pull a Halcyon and absorb that saber and then use that power to kill one other person or eliminate them for some time.

Originally posted by ILS

4. Interesting. So Corran's plan is to absorb his own lightsaber blade, die, and then oneshot the other team with telepathy? Not seeing it.

Sounds like a trolling statement to me, but I'll bite for now:

"One night, Skywalker took all the students down to a hot spring underneath the Great Temple. There, they slipped into the water and contemplated the cosmos meditatively. Skywalker guided them on a Force-vision of the galaxy, during which Horn felt Mirax, but he was unable to find her precise location. The meditation was interrupted by the sensation of danger as hot gases began bubbling up from the bottom of the pool, threatening to roast the students alive. Horn tapped into the Force to protect himself and Tionne, who was floundering near the edge of the pool. He absorbed the heat and converted it to energy, easily using telekinesis to lift Tionne to safety."

I couldn't find the exact quote, but basically he absorbed energy that could have killed all of the students at the jedi academy, and not even Luke could have stopped it. Exar is going to blast Corran at some point, only to be incredibly surprised to have the energy returned to him or one of his allies.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I was talking about Force power. And it's not as if the saberstaff is more unorthodox than a form which isn't even one of the Jedi's traditional ones (Jaina), or Trakta (Corran).

2. Well for one, telepathic defense isn't solely based on sheer TP ability, but also one's willpower, so I'm confident it's not easy for her to break Saba, who is the weakest of the four mentally and in the Force as a whole. I mean, even if it succeeded, it would take time, and in that time, both Nomi and Saba would be out of this fight, which still leaves a 3 v 3. Battle Meditation still makes more sense to me. I mean, her display against Aleema seemed to be initiated because Aleema was exercising her own mental powers. Without the Jedi exercising their own mental strength, there's absolutely no incentive for her to use her mental powers off the bat.

That, and as I said, you're speaking of it as if she certainly will just abandon her saber and retire to a corner of the field to unleash these mental assaults. That's just not happening every time, lol. If Kyp makes use of Alter Environment, the completely vulnerable Nomi is getting eliminated, and I'd say a combination of more lightning strikes and the remaining NJO members' attacks would keep Vodo, Ulic and Exar from stopping Nomi's demise.

They're all Maul-tier duelists, just on a lower scale. And they're not substantially less skilled by any means, considering that Qui-Gon, who likely isn't even in the same tier as Maul, gave him trouble - he's also not as good as the NJO team. Also, Vodo can be dropped eventually in sabers or quickly in Force as well. You're hugely underrating not only the NJO team, but also the potency of numbers, since it's still a 4 v 3 with the Battle Meditation, and Vodo can still be demolished Force-wise. And by all means, an additional member is still plenty, even if they're not on the level of an amped TotJ member. That being said, they can coordinate themselves with Battle Meld, detect faults with Shatterpoint, etc.

3. Maybe because they can raise a defense against it? I'm talking about Jaina and Kyp.

4. lol, no. I meant if he gets fatally stabbed, he could pull a Halcyon and absorb that saber and then use that power to kill one other person or eliminate them for some time. 1. I know you were. Nomi dropping Saba with TP is easier than Saba clearing whatever starting distance there is and then getting through Ulic, Exar and/or Vodo in order to get to Nomi. Waiting for a counter this.

2. I'd say Nomi has greater willpower than Saba. Aleema's illusions were not only potent enough to fool every Jedi and soldier barring Nomi herself (including Ulic), but she was also capable of projecting them down onto a planet from orbit with enough precision to turn weapons into snakes, among other things (in their minds anyway). And yet in a battle of sheer mental strength, while Aleema was in her meditation chamber, Nomi tore her mind apart. Not trying to knock the other team, but based on you and everyone else's analysis in this thread, Nomi essentially becomes useless, which is really just choosing to be willingly ignorant of her abilities.

Dude, Nomi's MO isn't to go into lightsaber combat against prominent duelists. Her main, true strength is telepathy and battle meditation, always has been. She's never been in a situation such as this where she's put against another main character, but it's honestly just ridiculous that we assume Nomi won't fall back on her main strength as a combatant a majority of the time. When we saw her escaping from the Krath she opted to kill guards by using battle meditation on small scale, causing them to fight amongst themselves. When she was on Ambria, she saved her daughter by causing the beasts in the lake to attack each other. Now, I'm not saying she'll do that to the other team, but whether she attacks someone directly, or weakens them overall while strengthening her team, it's going to have a profound impact on the battle. It's up to you if you want to acknowledge that or not.

So what if Qui-Gon gave Maul a good fight? Good for Qui-Gon. And yes, yes, Vodo can be dropped by the Force. You're just choosing not to then acknowledge what happens when Exar and Ulic choose to react to that. Remember? Colossal Force power channelled into sheer energy? Sorcery?

Wait, so let me get this straight. I'm underrating the NJO team tremendously, yet you're the one dancing around the point that nobody is going to reach Nomi before she lets off her telepathy for what, four posts now? And yet a battle meditation amped iteration of the TotJ team isn't going to be able to cover the back of Nomi from the NJO team which will be substantially weakened? This isn't even worth replying to. Until you can show me the other team overcoming the kind of mental strength that is usually reserved for affecting the minds of thousands of beings - to the point they can get through Exar, Ulic and Vodo who will be taking out the likes of Saba and Kyp in sabers preeetty quickly given the BM - you don't get to whine about me underrating and ignoring points.

3. I'm loving the elaboration you've gone into. You've also not once made an attempt to counter Exar's sorcery. Concession accepted.

4. Got a quote for both this and Corran's inclination to use such a tactic?
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Sounds like a trolling statement to me, but I'll bite for now:

"One night, Skywalker took all the students down to a hot spring underneath the Great Temple. There, they slipped into the water and contemplated the cosmos meditatively. Skywalker guided them on a Force-vision of the galaxy, during which Horn felt Mirax, but he was unable to find her precise location. The meditation was interrupted by the sensation of danger as hot gases began bubbling up from the bottom of the pool, threatening to roast the students alive. Horn tapped into the Force to protect himself and Tionne, who was floundering near the edge of the pool. He absorbed the heat and converted it to energy, easily using telekinesis to lift Tionne to safety."

I couldn't find the exact quote, but basically he absorbed energy that could have killed all of the students at the jedi academy, and not even Luke could have stopped it. Exar is going to blast Corran at some point, only to be incredibly surprised to have the energy returned to him or one of his allies. You'd do well not to butt into debates just to call people trolls. It looks rather... unprofessional on your part.

Dude, your interpretation of the quote you've post above is reaching tremendously. The text nowhere states that Luke or anyone else is incapable of escaping from the gasses or holding them back, only that the gasses were threatening. I can threaten Brock Lesnar, and one of his bodyguards can knock me out, but that doesn't mean Brock was soiling himself over it.

More to the point, all Horn did there, in that specific quote, was protect himself and Tionne. If you can show me a quote for Corran absorbing the entire pool, as well as how this correlates to Corran eating a lightsaber blade and then using that energy to oneshot any member of the other team, I'll concede.

What a troll.

http://media3.giphy.com/media/AT631VU1Fw208/giphy.gif

corrans illusions are pretty potent as well, being able to fool all of the students as well as luke. besides luke they were mostly noobs but brakiss was trained by the empire before joimimg the academy, and kam reached knight level before becomng a dark jedi. alos luke is the only one who was able to see thru it and had to dispell the illusion from the rest of the class, and this was in his first weeks/months of training.

this is probably his best absorbtion feat, also early in his training. hes in a large warehouse wired with the following- "i was looking at merr-sonn munitions lx-1 laser flechette mines all poimted in my direction. when detonated, the panels would abosorb the energy from the explosives and the laser diodes would spray out clouds of laser bolts. To complicate matters, the mine usually had a three meter backblast of pure explosive fire, which would feed into the chemical drums Id passed on my way in. That would trigger subsidiary explosions that would make quiet a mess" "I glanced up above the spotlight, and caught the blinking of another LX-1."

"I sank within myself, touched the force, started it flowing, and sucked in every stray erg being sprayed on my direction. I felt sting after sting, as if I were sliding through a sarlaccs gullet, and it felt as if I were desending into a black pit of pain. I directed some of the force to help me blunt the pain, but that made it much more difficult to hold onto all of the power I was absorbing.


I knew I couldn't hang onto it for long, and I knew I needed to use it to contain the explosions deadly force. As I had done in the grotto to save Tionne, I channeled all of it into telekinesis and raised my left hand. I twisted my wrist, stareted the energy swirling into a votrtex. I could feel the air begin to whirl around me, tighting, quicking flames from the chemical fires leapted toward the center of the room, spinning themselves into the vortex. Loose debris, flaming bits of duraplaste and rattling, clattering pieces of strap metal flew into air, filling the fiery cyclone with dark specks.

I pushed and drove the vortex up and out thru the roof, enlarging the hole the last mine had aready opened. chemical drums sailed up, exploding as they went, pulsing green and purple fire thru the rising funnel. flames wreathed me and i sucked their heat in, then vented it back out, building the firestorms strength until it ripped the warehouses roof off and crumpled it like a discarded piece of flimiplast.

the warehouses doors banged open, then ripped free and flew like sabacc cards into the maelstrom. the warehouses viewports imploded as air rushed in to feed the firestorm. i no longer needed to push, it had become a thing of its own, almost living, certainly beathing. i felt it tug at me, but the energy it fed me kept me rooted in place. i reached ou with my mind, pitching up into the column of fire the last several unexploded chemical drums, watched them blossom briliantly, then smiled. the explosion had been contained, drwwn inward. hough the warehouses corrugated metal walls glowed dully from the heat, they had not buckled. the tremors, from the explosion had rippled out thru the ground, but beyond that- and the fiery spear thrust into the sky- only the warehouse would be damaged by the hutts deathtrap."

Originally posted by ILS

You'd do well not to butt into debates just to call people trolls. It looks rather... unprofessional on your part.

Dude, your interpretation of the quote you've post above is reaching tremendously. The text nowhere states that Luke or anyone else is incapable of escaping from the gasses or holding them back, only that the gasses were threatening. I can threaten Brock Lesnar, and one of his bodyguards can knock me out, but that doesn't mean Brock was soiling himself over it.

More to the point, all Horn did there, in that specific quote, was protect himself and Tionne. If you can show me a quote for Corran absorbing the entire pool, as well as how this correlates to Corran eating a lightsaber blade and then using that energy to oneshot any member of the other team, I'll concede.

The statement I quoted was a trolling statement, and I stand by that. No need to get all upset over it.

Roasting them alive sounds like killing them to me. Also sounds like a similar energy to sith lightening. Luke could have pulled them out with TK, sure, but he couldn't have done what Corran did.

So you see this scene, where Corran absorbs the energy of the hot springs, and think "gee, he only saved two people with it instead of everyone"? You think that the hot springs only heated up specifically under those two only?

This was while Corran was still a trainee.

You're right. I'll try to keep my emotional outbursts to a minimum in the future, senpai.
Same here.
I didn't know gas was the same as lightning now?

Same effect, different cause. At least you tried.
I don't really care about Luke. I'm disputing the notion that Luke, according to you and I quote, "could not have stopped" the gas. Nowhere in the quote provided by yourself is that stated or hinted at. I advise reading it again or supplementing it with something more substantial.
Try not to put words on my keyboard, dear. I see the scene, and I think "gee, this poster has clearly typed up an incomplete scene from a novel and is giving it more context than it inherently provides". I put on a squeaky voice while I do it, too.

Example:

"but basically he absorbed energy that could have killed all of the students at the jedi academy, and not even Luke could have stopped it."

Whereas all your quote provides is the following:

"The meditation was interrupted by the sensation of danger as hot gases began bubbling up from the bottom of the pool, threatening to roast the students alive. Horn tapped into the Force to protect himself and Tionne, who was floundering near the edge of the pool. He absorbed the heat and converted it to energy, easily using telekinesis to lift Tionne to safety."

"Threatening" only implies the possibility of a threat being carried out, not certainty.

Horn explicitly protects just himself and Tionne and nobody else, at this stage in the quote.

Horn absorbs an unknown amount of the energy being produced by the pool and uses it to fuel his telekinesis, to lift Tionne, just Tionne, away from danger.

This is a very different message being conveyed than "So yeah, Corran totes absorbed gas that waz gun' kill le whole Jedi academy dat even Luke Skywalker couldn't stop, yo". The quote looks incomplete and you're stretching what has been presented.

No, but I do wonder what was happening concurrently with Corran saving Tionne. I imagine they wouldn't all be sitting there like potatoes hoping Corran was going to absorb all the energy away and single handedly TK them all one by one to safety. That would be pretty, well, autistic. Posting more from the novel might clear this query up for us.
Man, what a badass! A trainee and he has already surpassed Luke's tutaminis, absorbing reserves of energy potent enough to kill the entire Jedi Academy!

Shall I make Corran vs Vitiate, or shall I grant you the honor?

tl;dr? Ridiculous argument receives an equally ridiculous response.

Is all your information regarding the hot springs incident coming from what little I've said?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Is all your information regarding the hot springs incident coming from what little I've said? Indeed.

Originally posted by ILS
Indeed.

Assertions without knowledge, awesome.
Your opinion regarding this is now null.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Assertions without knowledge, awesome.
Your opinion regarding this is now null. Except I haven't assumed anything about Corran. If I have, quote it and point out that it's an assumption. I've made it clear that I'm not making any assumptions without a full quote provided by yourself. At the moment, Corran has absorbed some amount of gas and levitated Tionne. Cool.

Originally posted by ILS
1. I know you were. Nomi dropping Saba with TP is easier than Saba clearing whatever starting distance there is and then getting through Ulic, Exar and/or Vodo in order to get to Nomi. Waiting for a counter this.

2. I'd say Nomi has greater willpower than Saba. Aleema's illusions were not only potent enough to fool every Jedi and soldier barring Nomi herself (including Ulic), but she was also capable of projecting them down onto a planet from orbit with enough precision to turn weapons into snakes, among other things (in their minds anyway). And yet in a battle of sheer mental strength, while Aleema was in her meditation chamber, Nomi tore her mind apart. Not trying to knock the other team, but based on you and everyone else's analysis in this thread, Nomi essentially becomes useless, which is really just choosing to be willingly ignorant of her abilities.

Dude, Nomi's MO isn't to go into lightsaber combat against prominent duelists. Her main, true strength is telepathy and battle meditation, always has been. She's never been in a situation such as this where she's put against another main character, but it's honestly just ridiculous that we assume Nomi won't fall back on her main strength as a combatant a majority of the time. When we saw her escaping from the Krath she opted to kill guards by using battle meditation on small scale, causing them to fight amongst themselves. When she was on Ambria, she saved her daughter by causing the beasts in the lake to attack each other. Now, I'm not saying she'll do that to the other team, but whether she attacks someone directly, or weakens them overall while strengthening her team, it's going to have a profound impact on the battle. It's up to you if you want to acknowledge that or not.

So what if Qui-Gon gave Maul a good fight? Good for Qui-Gon. And yes, yes, Vodo can be dropped by the Force. You're just choosing not to then acknowledge what happens when Exar and Ulic choose to react to that. Remember? Colossal Force power channelled into sheer energy? Sorcery?

Wait, so let me get this straight. I'm underrating the NJO team tremendously, yet you're the one dancing around the point that nobody is going to reach Nomi before she lets off her telepathy for what, four posts now? And yet a battle meditation amped iteration of the TotJ team isn't going to be able to cover the back of Nomi from the NJO team which will be substantially weakened? This isn't even worth replying to. Until you can show me the other team overcoming the kind of mental strength that is usually reserved for affecting the minds of thousands of beings - to the point they can get through Exar, Ulic and Vodo who will be taking out the likes of Saba and Kyp in sabers preeetty quickly given the BM - you don't get to whine about me underrating and ignoring points.

3. I'm loving the elaboration you've gone into. You've also not once made an attempt to counter Exar's sorcery. Concession accepted.

4. Got a quote for both this and Corran's inclination to use such a tactic?



1. It's just clearing the distance, because she has the other three to hold off Ulic, Kun and Vodo. You're implying that Saba's alone in trying to stop Nomi or that her other teammates would just sit there waiting for her to be cut down by the other three.

2. I didn't say anything about Saba's willpower being stronger than Nomi's - I'm very well aware of the fact that Nomi can eventually win in telepathy, I'm saying that because of willpower, it's not an instant mind-crush, but something that takes time. And in that time, they're both vulnerable/eliminated until she actually wins via TP. Nobody said she's useless.

Beasts and high-tier Jedi are completely different examples. As I said, retiring to perform Battle Meditation is a plausible scenario, but just mindripping from the onset of the fight is not. Surely that's agreeable, especially because Nomi was prompted to perform her Mind Crushing because of Aleema's own mental powers. Without the same being performed by the Jedi, Nomi doesn't have an incentive to Mind-Crush. So the debate should center around Battle Meditation.

If Qui-Gon gave Maul a good fight, then the Jedi would give Ulic and Exar a good, or rather, even better fight, since Ulic and Exar are around Maul's level, and the Jedi above Qui-Gon. You claimed that even without Battle Meditation, the NJO Jedi are substantially worse as duelists already, and that's just not true, especially not with Vodo.

The amount of times I respond to something has nothing to do with underrating or overrating something. I already told you, Kyp's Alter Environment and a combination of the other three Jedi distracting Exar, Ulic and Vodo for even a few moments is sufficient to take out Nomi. We were about to discuss the "consequences" of that, namely Exar and Ulic retaliating, but for some reason we dropped that. We can go back to that now - if Kyp demolished Nomi in that fashion, what would you imagine Exar and Ulic would do to the others?

3. Show me Exar displaying Sorcery mid-duel against high-tier Jedi in any form and under any circumstances. The most he'd use is Blast, which is because it's an outburst of sheer power. I love how you're telling me how my elaboration is poor when you offer no explanation on what Sorcery you're referring to. Using Sadow's amulet to petrify? Attempting a Drain ritual? I can't offer any rebuttal until you tell me exactly what "Sorcery" you're talking about.

4. It's on the Nejaa Halcyon respect thread, and as for the inclination, that's harder to prove because Corran hasn't died before, but Corran and Nejaa's similarities in almost every other aspect leaves me to believe that this is a plausible options.

No, I'm implying that combat isn't as simple as four sets of 1v1 in this case. Someone gets within melee range of Nomi, Exar or Ulic take a second out of combat to blast them with telekinesis, like they've both shown themselves capable of. I'd also argue that with everyone here being familiar with how battle meditation operates and how vulnerable someone is while practising it - everyone here having worked with BM practitioners extensively in combat - that they know to keep Nomi covered while she amps them.

Exar Kun's saberstaff, as well as Vodo's quarterstaff due to it's similar nature, are also ideal weapons for engaging two opponents at a time, as per IIRC the Book of Sith, or another source pertaining to saberstaffs.
Right, so you concede that Saba isn't getting within melee range of Nomi before Nomi could assault her mentally? Fantastic.

So now I'm wondering why Saba is going to last longer than Aleema, who for all intents and purposes has great mental fortitude.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4354110-nomi+sunrider+tp+attacks+aleema.jpg

You can feasibly argue that Nomi wouldn't do this specifically, or Sever Force, but she would more than likely use battle meditation, as is her norm. Disrupting the enemy, raising the morale of her team.

So with those circumstances in mind, it's a greatly weakened Kyp, Jaina, Corran and Saba vs agreatly amplified Exar Kun, Ulic and Vodo. That is until they get to Nomi, which, in order to do, they have to get past her teammates. Personally, I believe her teammates are good enough to win that confrontation. Kyp's raw power is the biggest challenge should he choose to use it, which I believe Exar's sorcery, his and Ulic's defensive powers, and their amulet blasts, is enough to at least match in effectiveness. Otherwise, the TotJ team under these circumstances win the duel. Quality over quantity.
Agreed, mind ripping is merely a possibility, not a probability.

What puts them all above Qui-Gon?

Everyone barring Jaina, yes. I believe it is true. We've discussed many times why we believe Exar and Ulic are peers of Maul with a lightsaber (and by our standards, Tom Veitch agrees too), and with that said, Vodo was stalemating Exar in a close contest before being faced by an incredibly unpredictable new weapon and fighting style. Without the saberstaff factoring in, Vodo would have had a nice long fight with Exar, so he should at least be approaching Maul level well enough. Perhaps even a rival of Exar.

Blast them to pieces.

Hasn't ever happened. Although I'm not the type to operate under the "didn't happen, can't ever happen" logical thought process, so we'd have to agree to disagree on this matter. Personally? Given that Kun is one of the most masterful and skilled Force users in the mythos, a master of Niman which encourages Force-attacks being integrated into lightsaber combat, and the fact he petrified tens of thousands of people with a flick of his wrist, I'd say it isn't out of the question that he could release some Sorcery spells in this situation to dispose of those who lack an adequate defence. I.e, Dark Side Web, Illusions, Bolt of Hatred, Lightning, Amulet blasts, telekinesis and it's sub-categories such as Force Wound, and so on. Then again, he might have developed all of these awesome powers just so he could choose not to use them when it'd be incredibly convenient.

And while they aren't strictly dueling situations, Exar has telekinetically thrown Sylvar, killed Odan-Urr and blasted Aleema unconscious. He's clearly very adept in the arts of killing people with the Force.
Your take on Nomi's telepathy vs Saba's comparatively fragile mind is what I regarded as poor, just as a heads up.

I've detailed the sorcery and other powers I was referring to above.

Well, while I can appreciate that it's something that could plausibly happen, the same way I do with some of my arguments, I think while discussing eight rather unique characters it'd be safer to dealing with certainties for now. What I believe to be certainties are as follows:

-TotJ team have better combative Force powers and defensive powers on the whole.
-TotJ team will be able to win a lightsaber confrontation while amped by Nomi's battle meditation.
-TotJ team will be able to adequately cover Nomi by using their Force powers and amplified combat proficiency to keep the NJO team off her back, which will only become easier when one of the weaker fighters, such as Saba or Corran, are removed from the fight with either a lightsaber wound or a Force-based attack.