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Each of them is put in charge of a galactic empire of equal strength and goes to war with the other

Who wins the war?

I couldn't even form a response over how mind-****ing this thread was.

Cronal wins btw

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I couldn't even form a response over how mind-****ing this thread was. h8r

This thread is basically just Bantha putting his jaw against the sidewalk and asking Ant to jump on it with both feet.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Cronal wins btw
Warfare/tactical feats for Cronal?

Originally posted by ILS
This thread is basically just Bantha putting his jaw against the sidewalk and asking Ant to jump on it with both feet.
In terms of a single battle, Thrawn is probably the best. In regards to overall warfare, no one has matched what Revan did - ever.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Warfare/tactical feats for Cronal? Manipulating palpatine, being described as having cunning and charisma akin to palpatine, impressing palpatine so much that he was made head of imperial intelligence, impressing palpatine so much that he was literally entrusted to run the empire if palpatine ever died. And the entire battle of mindor

I can't tell if serious, or just really stupid.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I can't tell if serious, or just really stupid. im taking it that you don't have a response.

*sigh*

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Manipulating palpatine,
Never happened.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
being described as having cunning and charisma akin to palpatine
According to rumors - and Revan has him outclassed in charisma.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
impressing palpatine so much that he was made head of imperial intelligence,
Because of his foresight, not tactical prowess. Revan humiliates him in all things related to Sense.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
impressing palpatine so much that he was literally entrusted to run the empire if palpatine ever died.
Hint: Palpatine never planned to die.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
And the entire battle of mindor

This thread making me be like
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kwjCOzdOuxs/U44fCp_3Y1I/AAAAAAAAAcg/O4CdtK9QopU/s1600/7.gif

Yes it did

Yep the shattered galactic empire all seemed to believe it

Please Cronals darksight is far superior to Revans lack luster precognition. Not only can see multiple futures years in advance, he can see the necessary steps needed to achieve said futures. His empire could win off of this alone

Hint: he did die and Cronal was his chosen place holder.

You can hide your true emotions with laughter but they wont go away. Battle of Mindor in a nutshell. Cronal forces the New Republic to engage in a hopeless battle where great tacticians such as Lando, Admiral Akbar, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, and Han Solo all have no hope of winning because of how well planned out the battle was

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Yes it did
In the limited, biased viewpoint of the narrator echoing Cronal's thoughts - sure.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Yep the shattered galactic empire all seemed to believe it
Good for them?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Not only can see multiple futures years in advance, he can see the necessary steps needed to achieve said futures.
I would like a quote for "years," but even then it is still mediocre. Revan can predict the path of entire wars.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Hint: he did die and Cronal was his chosen place holder.
"Shadowspawn claimed to have been handpicked by Palpatine to be his steward..."
―Star Wars: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor

The fact Palpatine did die is completely irrelevant. The fact he didn't plan to die is essential - it means he never planned or cared about Cronal succeeding him.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
You can hide your true emotions with laughter but they wont go away. Battle of Mindor in a nutshell. Cronal forces the New Republic to engage in a hopeless battle where great tacticians such as Lando, Admiral Akbar, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, and Han Solo all have no hope of winning because of how well planned out the battle was
Show me which part of this I missed that elevated him above Revan, tbh.

Darksight>Battle Precognition by a mile. That said, it doesn't necessarily mean Cronal will win.

Malorum thought he could manipulate the Emperor, too, IIRC, but he obviously didn't.

Revan's battle precognition is not to be underestimated.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's battle precognition is not to be underestimated. neither is Cronals darksight

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Darksight>Battle Precognition by a mile. That said, it doesn't necessarily mean Cronal will win.

This. It's surprisingly well matched tbh, well done

Revan's a better tactician, Cronal has better precognition by far. Revan's assassins would be huge, Cronal's imperial intelligence arguably even better.

Not sure. Probably Revan, barely.

This isn't Galactic Empire vs Revan's Empire; otherwise Revan would get stomped. The OP makes it sound like they have the exact same resources, and this is a battle of pure tactics and precog.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This isn't Galactic Empire vs Revan's Empire; otherwise Revan would get stomped. The OP makes it sound like they have the exact same resources, and this is a battle of pure tactics and precog.

I was under the impression Revan could create an Assassin sect again, and Cronal could reform intelligence. Theoretically they'd have the resources and ability to do so, why wouldn't they?

Revan's Battle Precognition > Darksight. Fite me irl m8.

Then again, Selenal legitimately thinks Surik is comparable to Revan as a tactician, so I can't be too surprised.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Fite me irl m8. I would but I don't want to goto jail for beating up a minor. Then again it might be worth it

Originally posted by WildBantha88
I would but I don't want to goto jail for beating up a minor. Then again it might be worth it

If you mean entertaining as in wears a helmet and a straight best than sure HE's a RIOT

Originally posted by WildBantha88
I would but I don't want to goto jail for beating up a minor. Then again it might be worth it
/implying you originally had some form of citizen and legal rights

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's Battle Precognition > Darksight. Fite me irl m8.

Then again, Selenal legitimately thinks Surik is comparable to Revan as a tactician, so I can't be too surprised.

Not sure why you need to lie to get out of the hilarious hope you've dug but ok.

She's comparable as a ship to ship tactician, that much is literally stated you just can't look at two things at once, and obviously marvelling at the minuscule hard on you have for revan is more fascinating to you

How so? Meetra's forces were being completely devastated at Malachor V until Revan showed up. And he manipulated her during the entire Battle of Dxun.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How so? Meetra's forces were being completely devastated at Malachor V until Revan showed up. And he manipulated her during the entire Battle of Dxun.

They were being decimated because she had half the forces, he planned it that way to make sure no one loyal to her (half the Republic navy) survived, or he'd have a harder time taking the core.

Sure, and Revan had the other half. He came in and turned the tide of the battle in their favor.

So, what points to Surik being a comparable tactician? Surely not Malachor or Dxun.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sure, and Revan had the other half. He came in and turned the tide of the battle in their favor.

So, what points to Surik being a comparable tactician? Surely not Malachor or Dxun.

I used all those quotes in my Kaggaths, go find them tbh. I'm playing Smite

Originally posted by Selenial
They were being decimated because she had half the forces, he planned it that way to make sure no one loyal to her (half the Republic navy) survived, or he'd have a harder time taking the core.

Where is this stated?

Yes, Revan used the device to "clean house" but where is it stated that those he killed were loyal to the Exile rather than the Republic?

Revan wins, obviously. Cronal is smart and cunning, and he has Darksight, granted. However, warfare is completely different from political machinations. Cronal has one showing of genuine tactical skill in war, just one. Revan has masterminded two wars, one of which he won completely and utterly against a vastly superior military force, the other he would have won if not for the betrayal of his apprentice.

Let's keep in mind Revan's accomplishments during the Mandalorian Wars. Not only had the Mandalorians broken into the Core Worlds, but the Republic was on the verge of collapse by that point:


--The Essential Atlas

Despite this, Revan and his Jedi defeated the Mandalorians in but a year (Revan joined in 3961 and the war ended in 3960). Revan didn't just defeat them, though, he utterly crushed them. Almost all of Mandalore the Ultimate's gains were rolled back by Revan's forces:


--The Essential Atlas

From there, Revan drew the Mandalorians into a trap at Malachor V and utterly annihilated them to the point that the Mandalorians could never pose a galactic threat again.

Now, what about Cronal?

Yes, Cronal waged his own war, this time against the New Republic. He was rather successful of course. However, take note that the galaxy was in chaos during this time. The New Republic was still fighting the Galactic Civil War, making engagements with other Imperial forces (such as the Warlord Zsinj), Ssi-ruuk, Lumiya and the Nagai, as well as its continuing campaigns into the Core World. (Review the Essential Atlas, the Essential Guide to Warfare, or even Wookieepedia to confirm)

Essentially, Cronal engaged a distracted New Republic. It should be obvious that he did so well. In comparison, Revan took a broken Republic and met the Mandalorians head on, utterly crushing them while simultaneously working to corrupt his own forces.

But Cronal set up that trap, right? One of his better accomplishments? Yes he did, and yes it is. Thing is, it didn't work. If we're still comparing Revan's feats in the Mandalorian Wars to Cronal's, then Revan has him beat in the development of traps. Mostly because his trap was actually successful. Even better, Revan wasn't even there for most of the battle at Malachor V. Revan's trap was so well-founded that he didn't even need to execute it personally until the final stages. On the flip side, Cronal was at Mindor and he still lost.

I would refer to Rishi for another example of Revan's skill in that particular area, but it seems to have already been mentioned, so I don't feel a pressing need to get into it.

Revan is the superior tactician, obviously. I think we can all agree to that, right? Moving on...

So, what about Darksight? Well, as a perceptive ability it is incredibly powerful. However, it has one major flaw. As has been posted already, Darksight drives Cronal slowly insane. If Cronal were to rely on this ability since he is so outclassed in tactical abilities, he would slowly drive himself towards insanity. Psychological warfare (one of Revan's most used methods) becomes that much more effective. Revan's mass deceptions skyrocket in efficiency. Etc, etc. Revan's advanced military tactics are practically designed to take advantage of Cronal's slowly growing insanity and paranoia.

And not to mention Revan's own advanced perceptive abilities. Revan can see the paths of entire wars and outdo other masters of precognitive abilities, as he demonstrated during the engagements with the Echani's greatest warrior Yusanis.

So, assuming Cronal uses Darksight and sees himself winning against Revan, the latter will most likely be able to predict Cronal's movements and counter them. It's simple, Cronal sees the outcome and attempts to manipulate events towards that outcome. Revan sees these events and counters.

Regardless, Revan is the superior military commander and has a means of contending with Cronal's Darksight, flawed as it is. Based on all of the above and more, Revan should come out on top.

Originally posted by ares834
Where is this stated?

Yes, Revan used the device to "clean house" but where is it stated that those he killed were loyal to the Exile rather than the Republic?

He killed those who weren't loyal to him, there's a difference.

One of the Kreia speeches, or Atris in the Revan Novel. I forget.

Nvm

Originally posted by Selenial
He killed those who weren't loyal to him, there's a difference.

One of the Kreia speeches, or Atris in the Revan Novel. I forget.

That's entirely stupid tbh.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
That's entirely stupid tbh.

Meh, he was a Dark Lord at that point. Wanted to weaken the republic. Not stupid, it's Genius.

Originally posted by Selenial
Meh, he was a Dark Lord at that point. Wanted to weaken the republic. Not stupid, it's Genius.

Yeah but doing it during the middle of a war?....Still stupid imo, you don't just kill others because they are loyal to one of your other officers instead of you, that's just wasting men that could be used.

Well clearly then you don't understand Revan's plan, do you?
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/the-power-of-darth-revan-overview/103361/.

I understand it, doesn't mean that I don't find it ridiculous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1DcD8e55YY

Cronal made a volcano into a space ship. :iwin:

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah but doing it during the middle of a war?....Still stupid imo, you don't just kill others because they are loyal to one of your other officers instead of you, that's just wasting men that could be used.

Well it was at the end of a war, the Mandalorians were defeated whatever happened.

What it actually was, was massacring the force that would rise up to oppose you. Had Revan returned to conquer, he would have been met with a force larger than his own with a far stronger power base and intimate knowledge of his forces. Not to mention a General who would pose a very serious threat.

He took out the General, the majority of said force and did it all without anyone raising an eyebrow...

It was a subtle process, too. He broke his forces slowly - especially at Dxun. By Malachor, his fleet had unwavering loyalty to him. He cemented this by calling upon the power of Malachor to turn them into his ultimate minions.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Cronal made a volcano into a space ship. :iwin:
Revan made the Republic his b!tch :iwin:

Originally posted by Selenial
Well it was at the end of a war, the Mandalorians were defeated whatever happened.

What it actually was, was massacring the force that would rise up to oppose you. Had Revan returned to conquer, he would have been met with a force larger than his own with a far stronger power base and intimate knowledge of his forces. Not to mention a General who would pose a very serious threat.

He took out the General, the majority of said force and did it all without anyone raising an eyebrow...

Still doesn't make it any less ridiculous, he wanted them loyal he could have done it differently too.

But /shrug, it's w/e

He wanted them more than just loyal.

At any rate, Bantha you kinda made this vague. You say they have Empires at equal strength....so does this mean that numbers and so forth are equal and that the troopers, ships, equipment etc are different?

Or do they have the same exact Empire down to the tiniest detail?

Would be kinda uneventful then because it's all the same thing.

http://cdn.riveraveblues.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/miss-the-point2.jpg

What? This is a galactic war with two Empires yes? Bantha just said equal strength, which doesn't say much.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sure, and Revan had the other half. He came in and turned the tide of the battle in their favor.
I'm not saying I agree with Seleniel on this subject, but this alone doesn't necessarily mean Revan is the better tactician. More than doubling the forces of one of the sides in a battle is going to be a gamechanger, regardless of who is leading said forces.

I never said it did. I was merely trying to figure out what places Surik as an equal to Revan.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Seleniel



Also: Yeh, DMB's right Ant. No one's even saying she's better than him as an overall Tactician, don't get why you won't listen when we say Surik's decent. She was given more of a force than him for a reason, he directed the war not fought the battles.

Since when was she given more of a force than Revan? Wasn't their fleets at Malachor split in half, with Surik getting the shitty half?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Since when was she given more of a force than Revan? Wasn't their fleets at Malachor split in half, with Surik getting the shitty half?

During the War she was given half the Republic Military. Seeing as Malak led his own arm of the forces, that means Revan would have had less than her.

At Malachor, I'm not sure anyone's ever said it was split in half. Revan had the reinforcements, Surik had the bulk of the fleet that was used to lure the Mandalorians in in the first place.

She was given the Republic military, but her campaigns and instructions were still from Revan. It's how Revan was able to make Dxun such a big success without not publicly leading it.
Can I have a source for Malak leading his own forces? Everything I've ever seen points he was the forefront of the ground assaults - never an actual military leader who strategized stuff.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She was given the Republic military, but her campaigns and instructions were still from Revan. It's how Revan was able to make Dxun such a big success without not publicly leading it.
Can I have a source for Malak leading his own forces? Everything I've ever seen points he was the forefront of the ground assaults - never an actual military leader who strategized stuff.

Well that's what I'm saying, Revan organised the war.

And Dxun was Surik and Revan leading the force together to be honest, not that that is even remotely close to a Strategic feat. They both realised they had no choice, no tactics available because they had to destroy the Dxun camps before Onderon fell, so they threw troop after troop into the dirt to die.

Not really brilliant tactics, just something that had to be done.

That's not what happened though - Dxun served as the pinnacle of Revan's ingenious plan, and set the scene for the massacre of Malachor V. Going to copy-and-paste from my blog:

The Battle of Dxun was arguably the bloodiest battle of the Mandalorian Wars. It was said that for every Mandalorian who died, ten Republic soldiers shared the same fate. Little does history, or the fan-base, know that this was indeed intentional. HK-47 and Meetra Surik note that the battle could have easily been won without the amount of casualties they suffered. Under the command of Meetra Surik, Revan forced her forces through "a hundred feints" during the battle, dwindling her numbers down to a quarter of their full strength. The majority of her remaining soldiers were lost during a desperate charge across a minefield as they attempted to strike at the Mandalorian emplacements, as Revan ordered. This entire charge however was completely unnecessary for victory, and there were far easier choices for a more decisive victory.

HK-47 accounts that Revan saw Dxun as a way to break Jedi psychologically in the heat of conflict. Like I mentioned a while back, Revan will use this tactic many times. Take note that the forces of Dxun were under Meetra Surik's command. Revan eliminated a large bulk of her forces and defeated the Mandalorians together in a glorious victory for himself. It is no coincidence that after this battle, the remnants of Meetra Surik's forces saw Revan single-handily annihilate a huge number of Mandalorian ground forces on Althir with casual ease. And it makes perfect sense too: Revan wanted the soldiers not loyal to the Republic or to the Jedi Exile, but rather to him. He secretly orchestrated the entire battle in order to gain the loyalty of Surik's forces. Who would they be more loyal to: the general who, in their mind, lead thousands of them to their death in an unavailingly futile ground incursion on Dxun, or the one who expeditiously obliterated Mandalorian forces on Althir and showed superior leadership abilities? The answer is obvious.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not what happened though - Dxun served as the pinnacle of Revan's ingenious plan, and set the scene for the massacre of Malachor V. Going to copy-and-paste from my blog:

The Battle of Dxun was arguably the bloodiest battle of the Mandalorian Wars. It was said that for every Mandalorian who died, ten Republic soldiers shared the same fate. Little does history, or the fan-base, know that this was indeed intentional. HK-47 and Meetra Surik note that the battle could have easily been won without the amount of casualties they suffered. Under the command of Meetra Surik, Revan forced her forces through "a hundred feints" during the battle, dwindling her numbers down to a quarter of their full strength. The majority of her remaining soldiers were lost during a desperate charge across a minefield as they attempted to strike at the Mandalorian emplacements, as Revan ordered. This entire charge however was completely unnecessary for victory, and there were far easier choices for a more decisive victory.

HK-47 accounts that Revan saw Dxun as a way to break Jedi psychologically in the heat of conflict. Like I mentioned a while back, Revan will use this tactic many times. Take note that the forces of Dxun were under Meetra Surik's command. Revan eliminated a large bulk of her forces and defeated the Mandalorians together in a glorious victory for himself. It is no coincidence that after this battle, the remnants of Meetra Surik's forces saw Revan single-handily annihilate a huge number of Mandalorian ground forces on Althir with casual ease. And it makes perfect sense too: Revan wanted the soldiers not loyal to the Republic or to the Jedi Exile, but rather to him. He secretly orchestrated the entire battle in order to gain the loyalty of Surik's forces. Who would they be more loyal to: the general who, in their mind, lead thousands of them to their death in an unavailingly futile ground incursion on Dxun, or the one who expeditiously obliterated Mandalorian forces on Althir and showed superior leadership abilities? The answer is obvious.

Fair enough, but from everyone else's perspective it was something that simply had to be done, Surik's forces didn't see it that way (as evidence by Bao-dur's speeches on it) and the only Jedi it really effectively broke was Surik herself...

Interesting analysis none the less.

Because they didn't know Revan's true intentions. Surik would later say something along the lines of "Only Revan would know why the battle happened the way it did" or something like that.

When you piece the puzzle together, you realize how big of an ******* Revan was.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because they didn't know Revan's true intentions. Surik would later say something along the lines of "Only Revan would know why the battle happened the way it did" or something like that.

When you piece the puzzle together, you realize how big of an ******* Revan was.

Yeh, he really was. Quite impressive.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
At any rate, Bantha you kinda made this vague. You say they have Empires at equal strength....so does this mean that numbers and so forth are equal and that the troopers, ships, equipment etc are different?

Or do they have the same exact Empire down to the tiniest detail?

Would be kinda uneventful then because it's all the same thing. the expires are different, like different ships troops tech, ex. But they both have around the same military strength, political influence, and the empires are about the same size.

Aurbere and I accept your concession, Bantha.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Aurbere and I accept your concession, Bantha.