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All RotS incarnations.

Fight takes place in a gigantic wide open hangar bay with few obstructions.

The Emperor and Vader

Uh, Sidious can take this solo. And Anakin is superior to either on team 1.

Team 2 stomps.

Sidious can take this, but Anakin isn't superior to Obi-Wan. He's much more aggressive and flashy, but it was plainly obvious he couldn't take Kenobi in a 1x1 even with all his Force Powers.

Because of his conflict. He is the superior combatant though as evidenced by him curbing Dooku.

Sidious solos.

And for the record...

Anakin>Obi Wan. Vader<Obi Wan.

The team is 'Sidious and ANAKIN', which means he's the Invisible Hand badass, not the 'you underestimate my power' Mustafar dumbass.

Uh, no. Vader is at his most powerful on Mustafar in term of skill and strength. The problem is he doesn't want to kill Obi-Wan and doesn't want to fully embrace the Dark Side. IMO, Vader could destroy the Anakin that dueled Dooku. Easily.

So nobody thinks team 1 has a shot? I feel like Dooku vs Sidious would be fairly close in a sabers only bout. They each performed rather similarly against Yoda in the saber portion of their fights (Sids lasted a bit longer but unlike Dooku, Yoda was able to disarm him).

Now, if we were to say they could use force speed to enhance their fighting ability then Sidious would speed blitz a la the arrest scene. But in terms of pure saber skill/instinct/prowess it'd be close.

Same with Anakin and Obi-Wan, though the former would probably have the upper hand when fighting with a clear mind.

Team 1 hasn't a prayer against Sidious, even in Sabers only. Sidious is SO DAMN FAST that Dooku and Kenobi can't even track him.

Sidious solos.

Originally posted by ares834
Uh, Sidious can take this solo. And Anakin is superior to either on team 1.

Team 2 stomps.

Feats say Anakin becoming Vader was a major drop in power for him.

Dooku is a far better duelist then Kenobi will ever be. Anakin whooped him one. Then, Vader turns around and gets his famous Mustafar injuries from Kenobi.

Hence:

ROTS Anakin>Dooku>Kenobi>ROTS Vader

Now, by ROTJ, Vader beats his ROTS Anakin self, because he's that much more experienced, but in ROTS, being Vader just handicaps him.

And so, Anakin would stomp his evil self.

Operation Knightfall Vader>Invisible Hand Anakin.



And Sidious solos.

Vader doesn't fight anyone during Knightfall that's as powerful as Dooku or Kenobi. He's mostly just mopping up hordes of scrub jedi.

The only powerful beings he fights after becoming Vader are Kenobi, an illusion of Maul, Galen Marek/Starkiller, and Luke.

Wtf is this. Team 2 wrecks.

Kenobi's going to get blitzed.

Dooku and Kenobi are going to get speed blitzed. Awesome a Makashi duelist as Dooku is, he's got maybe 3 or 4 seconds against his master.

Anakin can take a coffee break as we argue whether he was stronger as Anakin or as Vader :P

Kenobi beat Dooku once and he bested Anakin, stalemated Maul, kicked Ventress's ass, and easily beat Savage. People REALLY need to stop lowballing him

And throughout all that circumstance, he got his ass kicked on multiple occasions against the same people.

Team 2. Sidious solos this.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Dooku and Kenobi are going to get speed blitzed. Awesome a Makashi duelist as Dooku is, he's got maybe 3 or 4 seconds against his master.



WTF? Dooku gets speed blitzed?

Funny I don't remember Dooku getting speed blitzed by Sidious's equal (Yoda). Nor do I remember Sidious speed blitzing Dooku's equal (Mace).

This forum has taken the whole speed blitzing thing way too far.

Mace had a unique Vapaad amp. And Yoda is inherently nonviolent and holds back most of the time.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Mace had a unique Vapaad amp. And Yoda is inherently nonviolent and holds back most of the time.


Great excuses.

So tell me where's the proof that Sidious would blitz Dooku. Tell me who on Dooku's level has Sidious previously blitzed.

Dooku won't get blitzed but he won't win either

In terms of purely saber dueling, no force powers.

Revan>Yoda>Sidious>Anakin>Dooku>Mace Windu>Kenobi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Great excuses.

So tell me where's the proof that Sidious would blitz Dooku. Tell me who on Dooku's level has Sidious previously blitzed.

I don't think Dooku's getting blitzed either but those aren't really excuses. If Yoda was bloodlusted then perhaps his fight gets easier. I doubt it but it's possible.

Originally posted by Based
I don't think Dooku's getting blitzed either but those aren't really excuses. If Yoda was bloodlusted then perhaps his fight gets easier. I doubt it but it's possible.


My point was that wouldn't make sense if Yoda could just "blitz" Dooku. Because in that scenario he could easily just disarm Dooku without being overly violent/aggressive at all. In fact IF he could do that, it would be the least aggressive way to take down Dooku.

Originally posted by Board Walker
In terms of purely saber dueling, no force powers.

Revan>Yoda>Sidious>Anakin>Dooku>Mace Windu>Kenobi


Have you ever made a legitimate comment that wasn't a troll on here before?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
My point was that wouldn't make sense if Yoda could just "blitz" Dooku. Because in that scenario he could easily just disarm Dooku without being overly violent/aggressive at all. In fact IF he could do that, it would be the least aggressive way to take down Dooku.

Yoda was holding back, and killing is much easier than disarming.

Fisto has similar speed feats, maybe faster tbh and he was blitzed.

Originally posted by Selenial
Yoda was holding back, and killing is much easier than disarming.



What?


Firstly it's easier to chop off limbs than it is to kill. But granted, that's still pretty violent.

But if he could actually SPEED BLITZ Dooku, then of course it would be easy to chuck his weapon out of his hand, if Dooku "CAN'T EVEN SEE YODA MOVE." lol




Originally posted by Selenial
Fisto has similar speed feats, maybe faster tbh and he was blitzed.


LOL You comparing Fisto to Dooku now?

Originally posted by Trocity
Have you ever made a legitimate comment that wasn't a troll on here before?
You dare address the prophet directly?

Originally posted by Selenial
Yoda was holding back, and killing is much easier than disarming.

Fisto has similar speed feats, maybe faster tbh and he was blitzed.
You are actually wrong. Disarming is much easier than killing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What?


Firstly it's easier to chop off limbs than it is to kill. But granted, that's still pretty violent.

But if he could actually SPEED BLITZ Dooku, then of course it would be easy to chuck his weapon out of his hand, if Dooku "CAN'T EVEN SEE YODA MOVE." lol







LOL You comparing Fisto to Dooku now?

Yes, and Yoda didn't want to kill or maim him. He wanted a chance to talk, like they did in Dark Rendezvous. And the thing is he as blitzing Dooku, Dooku could barely keep up even though all Yoda was trying to do was disarm him.

And Fisto has better speed feats, and this is entirely a discussion about speed.

Originally posted by Selenial
Yes, and Yoda didn't want to kill or maim him. He wanted a chance to talk, like they did in Dark Rendezvous. And the thing is he as blitzing Dooku, Dooku could barely keep up even though all Yoda was trying to do was disarm him.

And Fisto has better speed feats, and this is entirely a discussion about speed.
In script and novelization Yoda was clearly attacking Dooku in his vital body parts in both fights. In film Yoda had his talk and then he attacked Dooku, not other way around. Your claim that Yoda only tried to disarm Dooku is completely unsupported. Moreover, there is no reason for Yoda not to want to maim Dooku in the universe, where body parts are easily replaced with prosthetics.

Originally posted by Arhael
In script and novelization Yoda was clearly attacking Dooku in his vital body parts in both fights. In film Yoda had his talk and then he attacked Dooku, not other way around. Your claim that Yoda only tried to disarm Dooku is completely unsupported. Moreover, there is no reason for Yoda not to want to maim Dooku in the universe, where body parts are easily replaced with prosthetics.

Then please explain why he didn't once attack with the force, or why multiple sources state he was holding back.

Hell, he was even (according to the insider) being reckless against Dooku, putting himself at too much risk, as they say he couldn't dare risk going that speed against Palpatine who could easily counter and capitalise on those mistakes.

Well, yeah. Palpatine's the sort of guy where one mistake is your last. So is Dooku, typically, but if a master fencer is too slow to take advantage of errors, that says a lot.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Dooku and Kenobi are going to get speed blitzed. Awesome a Makashi duelist as Dooku is, he's got maybe 3 or 4 seconds against his master.


3-4 seconds? http://i48.tinypic.com/ksq4m.jpg

Dooku would last at least 30 seconds against Sidious.

Originally posted by Selenial
Then please explain why he didn't once attack with the force, or why multiple sources state he was holding back.


Firstly he did attack Dooku Once with the Force. A Force Lightning deflection aimed right at Dooku's face. Second he was assessing Dooku's power level and seeing if he had truly turned to the Darkside: "Powerful you have become Dooku.. Hmm the Dark Side I sense in you. "

Kindly post these Canon sources which state Yoda was holding back once they started clashing Sabers.

Originally posted by Board Walker
In terms of purely saber dueling, no force powers.

Revan>Yoda>Sidious>Anakin>Dooku>Mace Windu>Kenobi

You might need to reorganize that. IMO this is how I put them.

Yoda>/=Sidious>Dooku>/=Windu>Anakin>Kenobi>Revan

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Agreed.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
3-4 seconds? http://i48.tinypic.com/ksq4m.jpg

Dooku would last at least 30 seconds against Sidious.

I agree. He lasted a very long time against Yoda so Sidious couldn't just outright take him out. I'd say with no holding back I'd give Dooku at a Maximum of 2minutes against Sidious. If Maul can survive for that long against Sidious, ( someone I believe to be weaker than Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat ) and Dooku can last an entire duel vs. Yoda I have no doubt that Sidious mixing his styles, Dooku would last at max 2minutes.

EmperorSidious2: Revan vs Qui-Gon Jinn?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
EmperorSidious2: Revan vs Qui-Gon Jinn?

Revan. Qui hon is to with the force and not trying to use it as an aggressive tool. In lightsaber so I would give it to Revan as he's more diverse and may actually be pretty good.

In the force I'd give. The edge to Revan as he did go up against the vitiate and also is regarded as a powerful force weilder. However I believe most of his power is fan made but, but he is still a good duelist and powerful force weilder.

Overall Revan.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I agree. He lasted a very long time against Yoda so Sidious couldn't just outright take him out. I'd say with no holding back I'd give Dooku at a Maximum of 2minutes against Sidious. If Maul can survive for that long against Sidious, ( someone I believe to be weaker than Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat ) and Dooku can last an entire duel vs. Yoda I have no doubt that Sidious mixing his styles, Dooku would last at max 2minutes.

I might even go longer TBH. Not Obi v Vader on Mustafar long, but perhaps 5 minutes or a bit more. Only because Sidious was clearly not on Yoda's level in sabers (else he wouldn't have resorted to high ground and the force). Dooku retreated against Yoda as well, so all we know about both is that they can each hold their own against Yoda for a (short) time.

If Yoda is a 10 and Sidious is a 9.5, I'd give Dooku like a 9.4 in sabers.

Team 2 definitely has the advantage, but it's not totally clear cut. The main issue for team 1 is that Kenobi probably takes too long against Anakin to go help Dooku beat Sidious. Or, Anakin wins and slices Dooku while he's straining himself against Sidious.

So it all depends on whether you think Kenobi could find some way to Soresu himself to a victory against Anakin before Dooku falls to Sidious. People say Anakin would do better against Obi Wan than Vader did, but remember it's unlikely he'd get the "Zone" buff fighting Kenobi, and he never really used the dark side effectively otherwise as Anakin. It's definitely a long shot. Probably 8/10 a victory for team 2, but not impossible for team 1 if certain stars align.

Originally posted by Selenial
Then please explain why he didn't once attack with the force, or why multiple sources state he was holding back.

Hell, he was even (according to the insider) being reckless against Dooku, putting himself at too much risk, as they say he couldn't dare risk going that speed against Palpatine who could easily counter and capitalise on those mistakes.

Could be many reasons. Could be because attacking Dooku with Force wouldn't work. Could be because lightsaber is a more effective way, Dooku even said that the contest will be decided by lightsaber, Yoda did not disagree. Or Yoda simply did not see suitable opportunity to attack with Force. During duel Yoda has to direct Force effort at keeping him fast, strong and agile, which prevents him from generating strong Force attack during mid combat.

Anyway, the fact that Yoda did not attack Dooku with Force means nothing, you can't use it as an excuse to prove anything. In most fights characters choose not to attack with Force or rarely use it. Maul did not use Force against Qui-Gon. Sidious and Windu did not use Force against each other during duel. Anakin and Dooku did not use Force against each other in RotS either.

Show me those sources. I haven't seen a single one.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
I might even go longer TBH. Not Obi v Vader on Mustafar long, but perhaps 5 minutes or a bit more. Only because Sidious was clearly not on Yoda's level in sabers (else he wouldn't have resorted to high ground and the force). Dooku retreated against Yoda as well, so all we know about both is that they can each hold their own against Yoda for a (short) time.

If Yoda is a 10 and Sidious is a 9.5, I'd give Dooku like a 9.4 in sabers.

Team 2 definitely has the advantage, but it's not totally clear cut. The main issue for team 1 is that Kenobi probably takes too long against Anakin to go help Dooku beat Sidious. Or, Anakin wins and slices Dooku while he's straining himself against Sidious.

So it all depends on whether you think Kenobi could find some way to Soresu himself to a victory against Anakin before Dooku falls to Sidious. People say Anakin would do better against Obi Wan than Vader did, but remember it's unlikely he'd get the "Zone" buff fighting Kenobi, and he never really used the dark side effectively otherwise as Anakin. It's definitely a long shot. Probably 8/10 a victory for team 2, but not impossible for team 1 if certain stars align.

1. The battle ground that they were fighting in during sabers were against sidious. So if sidious can hold off yoda while in that position he can definitely do better if in an open space. So if yoda is a 10 so to if sidious. The movie puts them as equals if they were in an open field or more balanced location. Dooku would definitely be below sidious as a duelist. If yoda is a 10, sidious is also a 10 and Dooku is an 8 or 8.5, or even a nine but I'd go with an 8 as yoda was able to handle Dooku with little effort. So if say that Dooku will get beaten but not in such a short time.

2. Anakin is actually the better duelist. So if anakin plays smart this time he would be able to defeat kenobi quicker than he did in mustafar and also actually win instead of losing. Kenobi would basically not help Dooku in the slightest. Since kenobi would basically just be defending and not pushing anakin while sidious is about to kill Dooku.

3. Sidious can solo this.

Anakin's contribution, or lack thereof, is meaningless till team 1 can prove they can take Sidious by himself. As far as I can tell, they can't.

Dooku lasting 5 minutes against Sidious?

tf?

Originally posted by Trocity
Dooku lasting 5 minutes against Sidious?

tf?

It's not that unimaginable given Dooku's feats. We're only talking sabers here...Sids is great but he's not going to plow over one of the best swordsmen of all time like he did Fisto or Tinn (and he was using Force Speed then anyways).

To me, "sabers only" means literally sabers only. So skill and prowess with a blade. They aren't enhanced by their force powers in the slightest, other than what it takes to properly control a lightsaber without dismembering themselves. So based on their technical abilities alone, I wouldn't be surprised if the Count could hold off Sidious for 5 minutes.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Anakin's contribution, or lack thereof, is meaningless till team 1 can prove they can take Sidious by himself. As far as I can tell, they can't.

Based on technical ability alone, two Jedi who are the masters of makashi and soresu (respectively), will be enough to beat any single opponent in sabers only. It's just too much. Sidious might take one but he'd be too tired to kill the second.

Do you guys see what I'm saying here? Of course Sidious would solo with access to his force reserves. But this fight is based only on what they can do with their blades...no force amps/hacks of any kind allowed.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2



Dooku would definitely be below sidious as a duelist.


Is he though? Has that been proven in some source that I missed?



Originally posted by EmperorSidious2

but I'd go with an 8 as yoda was able to handle Dooku with little effort.


Where are you getting "little effort" from? Yoda was jumping all over the place and was left exhausted (according to the AOTC Novel).

Force Augmentation (including Force Speed) is typically included in sabers only.

If you wanted to make it a truly Forceless duel, you'd have to set the battle on Myrkr or something like it. Or say 'in a Ysalimiri arena' or something like that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is he though? Has that been proven in some source that I missed?


Yoda vs Dooku. In the novel and movie yoda was the clear winner.



Where are you getting "little effort" from? Yoda was jumping all over the place and was left exhausted (according to the AOTC Novel).

Little effort was definitely the wrong pair of words. Sidious will have to put his back into it. I've never read the novel, but from what I've heard Dooku could not even pierce his defense and was actually becoming very tired. Movies are the ultimate source and yoda was ready to continue the fight with Dooku running.

Dooku can last as long as he did against yoda in their duel possibly a little bit longer as he wasn't in his prime as much yet. So I give Dooku 2 minutes and 45 seconds.

It's ok, DP's hatred of Sidious is as mythic as his hatred of Kit Fisto and the B-Team. In his head-canon, Sidious was only the master because Dooku let him be. He only allowed himself to get throttled like a licentious whore tbh. Dooku was in control the whole time, really.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Kenobi beat Dooku...

When did Kenobi beat Dooku?

Yeah, I'm gonna have to call Citation Needed on Kenobi beating Dooku. Kenobi generally gets hosed.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Force Augmentation (including Force Speed) is typically included in sabers only.

If you wanted to make it a truly Forceless duel, you'd have to set the battle on Myrkr or something like it. Or say 'in a Ysalimiri arena' or something like that.

Yeah I figured, it's my fault for assuming my interpretation was correct. Will note for the future.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Little effort was definitely the wrong pair of words. Sidious will have to put his back into it. I've never read the novel, but from what I've heard Dooku could not even pierce his defense and was actually becoming very tired. Movies are the ultimate source and yoda was ready to continue the fight with Dooku running.

I'm running into speculation here but does the fact that Dooku just finished fighting against two Jedi give him any sort of handicap against Yoda? True he dispatched Obi-Wan in thirty seconds max (depending on how the edits were cut), but Anakin made him work for it. He was already an old man so I wouldn't be surprised if that cut his force reserves/stamina by 25-30%.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
I'm running into speculation here but does the fact that Dooku just finished fighting against two Jedi give him any sort of handicap against Yoda? True he dispatched Obi-Wan in thirty seconds max (depending on how the edits were cut), but Anakin made him work for it. He was already an old man so I wouldn't be surprised if that cut his force reserves/stamina by 25-30%.

Ok if you look at what happened I can see it both ways. He did look tired however when he turned around he looked just fine. The he was the one who challenged yoda to a lightsaber duel. However they fought again and Dooku had a huge amp. So with that yoda is still better as he defeated him so Dooku is less than sidious and yoda.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok if you look at what happened I can see it both ways. He did look tired however when he turned around he looked just fine. The he was the one who challenged yoda to a lightsaber duel. However they fought again and Dooku had a huge amp. So with that yoda is still better as he defeated him so Dooku is less than sidious and yoda.

It's funny how established canon is so affected by what Lucas and crew chose to cut. For instance, I didn't even realize they had filmed a much longer Anakin vs Dooku fight, as well as a prolonged Dooku vs Yoda sequence that involved the Count using two blades:

http://www.geocities.ws/mrghoul_01/saberduel.html

The more you know! Wish someone could find that footage and edit it into the film..as it is, the episode II duels are horribly edited and filled with erratic jump-cut nonsense.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
It's funny how established canon is so affected by what Lucas and crew chose to cut. For instance, I didn't even realize they had filmed a much longer Anakin vs Dooku fight, as well as a prolonged Dooku vs Yoda sequence that involved the Count using two blades:

http://www.geocities.ws/mrghoul_01/saberduel.html

The more you know! Wish someone could find that footage and edit it into the film..as it is, the episode II duels are horribly edited and filled with erratic jump-cut nonsense.

Fascinating yes it is. it was still a good movie and and fight sequence my personal favoritee is Revenge of The Sith

Kenobi gets ragdolled by Sidious and Anakin shits on Dooku again.

Still waiting on a source/quote/anything at all (as long as it's valid) confirming that "Kenobi beat Dooku."

Sidious and Anakin win for sure.

Sidious and Anakin
- sidious is dooku's master so that "should" automatically mean that he is going to be more powerful than him in every way.
-at this time sidious, yoda, windu, and dooku are considered the best swordsmen.
-anakin killed dooku. although dooku had probably used some of his enery to fight anakin and dooku, but none the less it has been said that dooku could no longer anakin.
-yoda even said that kenobi did not stand a chance against sidious
-dooku had to retreat from yoda bc he could not beat him on geonosis
- sidious was not exactly on neutral ground when he was fighting yoda in the senate building, because they were fighting in that podium thing, so it was hard for him to fight when it was easier for yoda since he was much smaller and ataru was his preffered fighting style anyway.
-I know this isn't relevant but I think that if windu and sidious were to fight again i bet sidious would win bc he would be familiar with windu's vaapad and could change his own to overcome his vaapad.

then again i think in one of the comics dooku and wndu fought to a stale mate sort of, but I am not sure.

all depends on their motives for fighting when you get right down to it.