Saba Sebatyne vs. Darth Nihl

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carthage
Why not?

Battle takes place on neutral ground

SunRazer
Saba's the more skilled and physically superior, but Nihl's obviously the more powerful and might be able to secure wins through that route.

ILS
Is she really more skilled? I don't see it personally.

SunRazer
Well, not by much, but I see a small edge.

ILS
I don't really see her as someone who can stomp Wolf Sazen in the same manner as Nihl or give Cade a solid fight even though just prior Cade was able to stomp Talon in one move. She's stronger but that shouldn't make up for the skill deficit.

SunRazer
Well, if she really is substantially superior to Leia, I don't see why not, to be honest.

She's kind of somebody who has no defined upper limit, essentially, so it's not like it's impossible for her to perform that feat.

S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nihl is more attuned for combat, he may find a way to undermine Saba Sebatyne.

ILS
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, if she really is substantially superior to Leia, I don't see why not, to be honest.

She's kind of somebody who has no defined upper limit, essentially, so it's not like it's impossible for her to perform that feat. Nobody has a defined upper limit, but what we do have from her isn't as good as Nihl's showings. Leia's good but hardly overwhelming. I'd be hard pressed to say she's better than Talon.

SunRazer
Originally posted by ILS
Nobody has a defined upper limit, but what we do have from her isn't as good as Nihl's showings. Leia's good but hardly overwhelming. I'd be hard pressed to say she's better than Talon.

Actually, they do. For instance, Nihl has lost to Cade. That's his limit. Saba has no such losses to define her limitations, so it's not implausible to suggest that she can match or even slightly exceed Nihl in skill.

It's the fact that Saba's meant to considerably, if not vastly, superior to Leia.

ILS
And in the end no character has an upper limit because the one's at the very top don't. You can continually up characters like Nihl and Cade and in turn they up Krayt.

Leia doesn't have more going for her than Talon. She's a relatively equal match for Alema Rar and has some other decent wins on her record. Talon similarly has wins like curbstomping a high-ranking Imperial Knight, holding an edge over Wolf and Shado at the same time, managing to hold her own against Shado and Antares at the same time, and at times being able to give Cade a good fight when he isn't quite at his best. Talon's also accoladed with being one of the most skilled duelists in Krayt's empire, and by virtue of her rank, should be above the likes of Antares Draco, who has feats like killing scores of Sith Troopers and stomping five Sith single handedly. Antares is a great fighter, Talon's proven herself better than him, and Nihl had a solid fight with an iteration of Cade who stomped Talon. Even if we submit that Leia is as good as Talon, the disparity between her and Saba isn't such that Saba can last against someone who would oneshot Leia.

SunRazer
Originally posted by ILS
And in the end no character has an upper limit because the one's at the very top don't. You can continually up characters like Nihl and Cade and in turn they up Krayt.

Leia doesn't have more going for her than Talon. She's a relatively equal match for Alema Rar and has some other decent wins on her record. Talon similarly has wins like curbstomping a high-ranking Imperial Knight, holding an edge over Wolf and Shado at the same time, managing to hold her own against Shado and Antares at the same time, and at times being able to give Cade a good fight when he isn't quite at his best. Talon's also accoladed with being one of the most skilled duelists in Krayt's empire, and by virtue of her rank, should be above the likes of Antares Draco, who has feats like killing scores of Sith Troopers and stomping five Sith single handedly. Antares is a great fighter, Talon's proven herself better than him, and Nihl had a solid fight with an iteration of Cade who stomped Talon. Even if we submit that Leia is as good as Talon, the disparity between her and Saba isn't such that Saba can last against someone who would oneshot Leia.

1. There's a logic factor, though - you can't just go on to a no-limits fallacy. I wouldn't ever claim Saba could beat Luke, for instance. And besides, Sidious is canonically more powerful than Krayt, and so on - when you get to the top there's a hierarchy of beings, some being confirmed to be superior to others. The guys at the top also have limits and/or losses.

2. Well, Leia's natural potential in of itself is tremendous - it's her late training which hinders her. That being said, her natural potential should suggest that she's still quite talented a swordsman. As to where she actually is, it's kind of hard to tell. The circumstances under which she beat Beldorion are highly impressive, but he was out of practice (seemingly) and she had the mobility edge, obviously. She did beat a highly skilful Lost Tribe member quite decisively in Conviction, and she had the obvious edge over Tahiri Veila. Leia has also technically beaten Alema before, and I doubt I'd put Talon above Alema.

Cade wouldn't one-shot Leia, though. She might be roughly around Talon in sheer skill, but she has physical/power edges over her. Caedus regarded Saba as somebody who could give him difficulty in a fight, whereas he believed he could beat Leia easily. That's a pretty big difference, in my opinion - larger than the gap between Nihl and Talon.

ILS
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. There's a logic factor, though - you can't just go on to a no-limits fallacy. I wouldn't ever claim Saba could beat Luke, for instance. And besides, Sidious is canonically more powerful than Krayt, and so on - when you get to the top there's a hierarchy of beings, some being confirmed to be superior to others.

2. Well, Leia's natural potential in of itself is tremendous - it's her late training which hinders her. That being said, her natural potential should suggest that she's still quite talented a swordsman. As to where she actually is, it's kind of hard to tell. The circumstances under which she beat Beldorion are highly impressive, but he was out of practice (seemingly) and she had the mobility edge, obviously. She did beat a highly skilful Lost Tribe member quite decisively in Conviction, and she had the obvious edge over Tahiri Veila. Leia has also technically beaten Alema before, and I doubt I'd put Talon above Alema.

Cade wouldn't one-shot Leia, though. She might be roughly around Talon in sheer skill, but she has physical/power edges over her. Caedus regarded Saba as somebody who could give him difficulty in a fight, whereas he believed he could beat Leia easily. That's a pretty big difference, in my opinion - larger than the gap between Nihl and Talon. 1. And like you can't claim Saba is better than Luke, you can't claim the same about Nihl without proof. I get that she isn't the most explored character but it's not really an excuse.

2. What has Alema got going for her that supersedes the feats I listed for Talon?

3. Physical and power edges are irrelevant, and if you're talking about speed I fail to see how she's faster than Talon. If I can prove Talon is at least equal to Leia in swordsmanship then there's no reason Cade couldn't in that scenario.

You're stretching the term "difficulty" into "difficult fight" - Palpatine had "difficulty" with Fisto but that doesn't mean it was much of a fight. There's only so much you can do with the word difficult. And the difference between the version of Talon who Cade stomped and Nihl is very large, because Cade actually had no problem with Talon whereas he had his hands full with Nihl, and basically overpowered him.

SunRazer
1. That accolade in of itself suggests it, to be honest. And her superiority over a Force Rage-amped Kenth Hamner, sometimes with disadvantages, might also suggest this. Kenth is generally mocked for some reason, but along with other Jedi, he did cut down hordes of Vong on what appeared to be his first fight against them.

2. I didn't say she supersedes her, but she probably at least rivals Talon. I mean, she seemed to be significantly ahead of a Yuuzhan Vong commander/elite Vong warrior.

3. How's Talon equal to her in speed? Force Speed has physical relations but also has relations to Force strength, an area in which Leia undoubtedly exceeds Talon, and if her innate strength is anything to go by, she's much more powerful than Talon.

4. What source claims Sidious had difficulty with Kit? And Mace helped Kit. On the other hand, I highly doubt that Caedus regarding Saba with enough skill to make it difficult for him to beat her means that he would strike her down as Palpatine did Fisto. That wasn't any difficulty, tbh.

Talon did last against Nihl, though. And in your respect thread you promoted it as a "fairly extensive fight with the inclusion of off-panel bits".

SunRazer
And while Leia's speed can get pretty hyped, it does deserve acclaim. It's still fairly respectable.

ILS
I'm not seeing how Saba is superior to Kenth, based on his respect thread. The fight was even until it ended with his lightsaber in her stomach. Then again the fight is presented in sections that might not be complete so I don't know how exactly it went for either of them.

Alema caught the Commander by surprise. Other than that all she seems to have is fighting Leia, whereas all of Talon's opponents have well documented skill showings.

If we go by the "Force power = greater speed argument" then I'll undoubtedly find some way to make it bite you in the ass in a later debate, lol. That aside it's just not always the case. Weaker Force users can be equally fast to their superiors, it's been seen plenty of times. And Talon's ability to combat two highly skilled fighters at the same time and wreck an Imperial Knight in seconds is why she should at least be equal to Leia.

Er, the fact that he did have visible difficulty? I mean you can stomp someone and still put a lot of effort into doing so, which is how I imagine Caedus would deal with Saba.

She evidently improved after recovering from the Claws of the Dragon duel, since she fought a serious Cade and did better than get stomped by him later on. I'd attribute it to the fact Krayt forced her to recover from her stab wound through healing meditation alone instead of proper medical treatment, which is the kind of ordeal that improve one's connection to the Force. However, it wasn't that Talon which Cade stomped, which is the point.

ILS
Originally posted by SunRazer
And while Leia's speed can get pretty hyped, it does deserve acclaim. It's still fairly respectable. I know, but in this case even as a Skywalker she isn't noticeably above people in her dueling tier. With more time to improve and train she would be.

SunRazer
1. He was enraged and Saba was holding back. There was a point when she might have stopped holding back, but the text states she fought at a positional disadvantage shortly after.

The text outright mentions her superiority to him on even ground anyway.

2. She was clearly far above his second-in-command, too.

3. How the heck was he challenged by somebody that he killed in three chops, even with Windu's aid?

4. Okay, lol.

SunRazer
Originally posted by ILS
I know, but in this case even as a Skywalker she isn't noticeably above people in her dueling tier. With more time to improve and train she would be.

She had years of time to improve and train between Dark Nest, LotF and FotJ, lol. About a decade in total, in fact.

Q99
Originally posted by ILS
and by virtue of her rank, should be above the likes of Antares Draco, who has feats like killing scores of Sith Troopers and stomping five Sith single handedly. Antares is a great fighter, Talon's proven herself better than him,

Speaking of rank, he is the leader of the Imperial Knights. I don't think I'd put him below Talon. While they've met, they haven't exactly directly clashed too.

ILS
Him being the leader of the Imperial Knights doesn't put him above or on par with Talon.

Him being an even fight for someone Krayt considers to be a less effective fighter than Talon (Havok), puts him below her, actually. Which is further supported by the fact Roan Fel had a very close fight with Darth Kruhl, who is also below Talon, and yet he was only an even match for Antares.

And Talon did meet him directly. They had a fairly long fight off-panel with Shado supporting Antares.

ILS
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He was enraged and Saba was holding back. There was a point when she might have stopped holding back, but the text states she fought at a positional disadvantage shortly after.

The text outright mentions her superiority to him on even ground anyway.

2. She was clearly far above his second-in-command, too.

3. How the heck was he challenged by somebody that he killed in three chops, even with Windu's aid?

4. Okay, lol. Okay, so she's better than Kenth Hamner. Hamner's feats extend to killing a few Vong, right? Forgive me if I'm missing out any details but that kind of feat isn't exactly considered too high in the Legacy hierarchy, and he was still a good fight for Saba. So, I'm not too impressed by her as far as this thread is concerned.

2. I'd still place Talon's feats against the duos and her contending with Cade above killing a second-in-command Vong. She should be superior to both Leia and Alema. Which I think only makes sense; Talon is just shy of the best of the Legacy era by a few tiers, Leia and Saba aren't the same in their era.

3. Not challenged. He killed him with difficulty. I'm trying to give you some perspective on what Caedus meant by that. I'm not sure how far you're trying to stretch the quote but it doesn't elevate her above someone like Nihl.

Q99
Originally posted by ILS

Him being an even fight for someone Krayt considers to be a less effective fighter than Talon (Havok), puts him below her, actually.

I think Draco's stronger than Havok- Their first fight, Draco won, and the second, Havok won, but Draco had *just* come from leaving a pile of sith corpses, softening him up, while Havok was completely fresh.

Trocity
Cool fight

NewGuy01
In their first fight it was prior to Havok's Sith training, and even then he threw the fight and faked his death to escape the Empire's attentions. erm

Havok>Draco.

Q99
Originally posted by NewGuy01
In their first fight it was prior to Havok's Sith training, and even then he threw the fight and faked his death to escape the Empire's attentions. erm

Havok>Draco.


Sure, Havok didn't really die, but it wasn't said that he faked his death purposefully. And yea, he's probably stronger as a sith, but Draco'd have trained too.

He only fought Draco Sith-to-IK leader when he had the edge of being fresher.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, Havok didn't really die, but it wasn't said that he faked his death purposefully.

Sure, it's not outright stated, but it seems obvious to me.



I agree, Draco's improved since then too. Then again, I'd value the powers the Sith gave Havok as a more relevant improvement tbh.



I think that's an excuse, tbh. Can be said about a lot of fights.

ILS
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sure, it's not outright stated, but it seems obvious to me. There is literally no basis for it...

Q99
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sure, it's not outright stated, but it seems obvious to me.

It seems too risky to me. I mean, fighting Draco means Draco really would be trying to kill him.




It can be said, but it still definitely matters. I mean, we're not talking about 'cut down one or two, plus some random soldiers' like often happens, he faced a whole dogpile with Havok waiting til he was done to challenge him.

"Send a group of moderate foes, then jump in personally," is a classic tactic.

NewGuy01
I didn't say his fight with Draco was necessarily planned (nor necessarily an accident), but Eshkar Niin intentionally faked his death and escaped the Empire's radar--that's confirmed. That line of thought makes me think he decided to throw the fight to that end tbh.

ILS
Where was it confirmed that Antares didn't defeat him in their first fight? From what I can tell he didn't "fake" his death as much as he ran with the idea of it so he wouldn't be hunted down again.

NewGuy01
This is just like the Sidious vs Windu argument tbh. Havoc said he faked his death, once I get home Ill see if I can grab you a quote.

ILS
Are you talking about him trying to break Antares while torturing him with an illusion? Because if so he was lying during that. He projected an illusion of himself killing Sia's mother in front of Draco and tried to convince him that he failed to protect her and that he faked his death, when really Antares was sent after him in the first place because he killed Sia's mother. Antares wasn't there to see it, he just hunted Eshkar down. We get no real description or depiction of the fight other than that Eshkar was presumed dead. Pretty much seems like he just lost.

It's quite different from Sidious vs Windu. And nobody even buys Sidious faking his loss either way lol.

NewGuy01
What makes you think Draco wasn't present?

ILS
I wouldn't say it's impossible that he was present, just dubious, since he was only "present" in Havok's vision. All we do know is that Eshkar abandoned his vows as an Imperial Knight and Draco hunted him down and defeated him.
http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/19/13/19/27/screen11.jpg

SunRazer
Originally posted by ILS
Okay, so she's better than Kenth Hamner. Hamner's feats extend to killing a few Vong, right? Forgive me if I'm missing out any details but that kind of feat isn't exactly considered too high in the Legacy hierarchy, and he was still a good fight for Saba. So, I'm not too impressed by her as far as this thread is concerned.

2. I'd still place Talon's feats against the duos and her contending with Cade above killing a second-in-command Vong. She should be superior to both Leia and Alema. Which I think only makes sense; Talon is just shy of the best of the Legacy era by a few tiers, Leia and Saba aren't the same in their era.

3. Not challenged. He killed him with difficulty. I'm trying to give you some perspective on what Caedus meant by that. I'm not sure how far you're trying to stretch the quote but it doesn't elevate her above someone like Nihl.

1. An enraged Kenth Hamner, and whilst holding back. Killing numerous Vong on his first encounter with them is a very impressive fight - and on par with Talon's showings. You do, of course, realize that losing some of your most fundamental assets in a duel (precognition, clairvoyance, etc.) is a major detriment to your overall fighting ability? Kenth having never fought Vong before and still cutting them down, presumably by the dozens over the course of the battle, is a pretty damn good feat.

2. The difference is that the best of Leia's era is well above anybody else in Talon's era, so that comparison isn't valid.

3. It's not difficulty at all. The dictionary's definition of "difficulty" is if something requires great effort or struggle to perform, or if it wasn't done easily. Palpatine did easily cut Kit down without struggle, even with Mace parrying a blow.

And the dictionary's definition of "struggle" is to make a great physical effort.

ILS
1. Quote for Kenth killing them "by the dozens"?

2. Maybe in your mind lol. Luke, Caedus and Krayt aside everyone is pretty similar. Leia and Alema aren't on-par with Talon, sorry.

3. Again, you're missing the point. Palpatine did stomp him but he didn't do it nonchalantly. Just looking at him is enough to realize this. Result =/= Effort.

SunRazer
1. I said it's presumable. The Vong were pushed back, and they suffered immense casualties. Of course it wasn't all due to Kenth, but I think that's presumable, as I said.

2. "The very best" entails Luke and Krayt, respectively. Luke is easily above Krayt.

3. That doesn't entail "difficulty". Numerous sources claim Palpatine easily slaughtered Kit, and nothing at all suggests that it was "difficult", save for your arbitrary interpretation of events which isn't supported by any source.

And it wasn't nonchalant because Mace helped Kit. He only parried two blows before being exposed to one of Palpatine's strikes. Mace fended off that blow, giving Kit time to spin around and block one more of Sidious's strikes before getting bisected.

ILS
1. That's not really good enough. There are people lower than Talon in Legacy who can stand back to back with an ally and kill fodder in groups of two or three.

2. Obviously, but then that's Luke. I'm talking about the rest of the two eras. Luke is exceptional.

3. Quote for Palpatine doing it without effort?

Again, you're missing the point of Effort =/= Result. Palpatine was going all out on the B-Team, even though he slaughtered them he put effort into doing so.

Anyway, the point is you're stretching the Caedus quote beyond it's worth because outside of that, Saba has nothing to suggest she's as good as Krayt's head enforcer. The notion that she could be as good as him is just mind boggling to me. The Legacy era must be pretty sh*t in your mind if you think all it takes is someone like Saba to get through the best of Krayt's bodyguards and start trading blows with him herself.

SunRazer
1. So? Vong aren't fodder at all, especially not when a Jedi first encounters them.

2. You mentioned how they were relative to the cream of the crop in their respective eras.

3. I didn't say it was without effort. He unleashed himself, but he cut down Kit with liquid ease. Clearly Caedus didn't envision Saba suffering the same fate at his hands. Using effort doesn't make it difficult in the slightest. It just meant Palpatine went all-out, and in doing so, cut down Kit very easily and decisively.

4. So what if he went all out? Caedus's musings obviously involved him going all-out.

5. Not at all. If I don't hug Legacy like a teddy bear when I go to bed, that means I'm automatically underselling them? That's ridiculous. I have the Legacy era at a respectable level, but that doesn't automatically make Nihl above Saba.

The quote doesn't become invalid because of other showings. Saba still doesn't have any limit to suggest the quote is invalid. You might dislike the quote as much as others dislike Palpatine's quotes of supremacy, but nothing invalidates the quotes. Caedus's other assessments in that instance (that he can beat Ben and Leia easily and that it would be impossible for him to beat Saba and Luke at once) are completely correct.

And "all it takes is Saba"? That's implying Saba isn't one of the very best Jedi fighters of her age, which she clearly is, especially in Caedus's mind - somebody who isn't renowned for his humbleness. You clearly don't think much of the NJO era (especially Saba) if you reckon that nobody apart from Luke and Jaina can beat Krayt's elite or contend with him.

ILS
1. Neither are Sith Troopers, and people several tiers below Talon can take them on in similar waves as Kenth would take on Vong, except they also take on an army of Sith, stormtroopers and vehicles on top of all of that. Kenth and Saba are just not on-par with Talon. I'm just waiting for you to reverse your standards on the value of fodder-killing feats any second now, tbh.

2. I thought it went without saying that I was in no way comparing anyone to Luke. Seriously, just try and take a point for what it is for once; Talon, high-tier, well documented duelist. Saba - not so much.

3. You're contradicting yourself by saying Palpatine had to go all out in order to perform a task easily. Palpatine needing to go all out in order to do something means that whatever the task may be, it's a difficult one.

4. Exactly. Caedus might have difficulty stomping Saba, but he still would. And reality, if an enraged Kenth Hamner is all it takes to leave Saba with a lightsaber in her stomach maybe Caedus was just underrating himself. Nobody is infallible.

5. Not really lol. You're just underrating the best of the Legacy era by thinking they're a match for the lower tiers of other eras. You can ridicule the notion all you want but it's quite clear to see how you are with eras you don't understand.

Of course Caedus couldn't beat Luke and Saba at the same time lmfao. He couldn't solo Luke never mind a distraction on top of that. Doesn't help your case.

I didn't say it takes Luke or Jaina to take on Nihl lmfao. It just takes more than Saba. She's not really all that great. Neither is Kyp. Stick to debating Kyle, Corran, Mara etc. They have better feats.

SunRazer
1. I'm aware that dealing with Vong in regards to skill alone isn't better than the feats you're mentioning, but having to fight without some of the essential parts of your fighting technique (precognition etc.) for the first time makes the feat so much better than just beating Vong with no regard to circumstances.

2. Saba's very clearly one of the best of her age as well. You're deluding yourself to suggest otherwise.

3. Palpatine needed to go all out because Anakin was approaching and he only wanted Windu alive, and in another room, to play his drama out. He needed to eliminate the other three quickly, even in Mace's presence, so he unleashed himself fully. That doesn't mean it wasn't an easy win - maybe not in terms of effort, but in terms of how quickly Kit fell even with Mace's aid.

Regardless of how we see this, I think it's agreeable that what Caedus had in mind wasn't the same as Palpatine vs Kit. If you really think that, I'm just going to drop the bias claim and leave this debate.

4. The quote wasn't that Caedus would have difficulty stomping Saba, but that Caedus would have difficulty beating Saba at all. Of course it's not a several-minute long, hellacious fight for either end with no visible edge for either - I have no doubt that Caedus would very decisively cut down Saba, but only after exerting himself completely and clashing with her for a solid ten seconds or more.

Caedus isn't underrating himself because you want him to. As with all Sith, he's arrogant (not overly so, but still) and not known for his humbleness. He hasn't severely underestimated himself before - in fact, quite the opposite.
Kenth has no defined limits, so for all we know he could be Nihl's match as well. I have nothing to base that on, so I won't push the point. Saba, however, is an entirely different story. Not to mention it wasn't Kenth just being enraged that let him stab Saba, who was holding back/underestimating Kenth.

5. I don't have qualms with Nihl being Plo's match as a duelist, lol, but I do think Saba's also a match for Plo. That's all I'm saying - it's nothing against the Legacy era as a whole - and you're reaching pretty pettily if you think it is.

6. So? The simple matter of fact is that every other musing he made in that instance was utterly correct by your standards - it's a double standard to suddenly go back on Saba because she hasn't shown feats to match that. Cin doesn't have the feats to suggest superiority to Shaak, yet he is her better.

7. I didn't say Kyp's that great a swordsman. Saba, however, is. And Corran doesn't have better feats than Saba - he definitely isn't above Saba, considering he was on the defensive in the snippet of the spar we had between them, and he was making liberal use of his extended lightsaber blade as well as Saba fighting with a new style. At the very worst, Saba is Corran's equal. At best, however, she's clearly above him.

ILS
1. I'd say fighting Jedi-tier combatants without your passive senses is roughly as good as fighting cybernetically enhanced super-Sith who can stomp regular Jedi and Sith. So with that said, Kenth Hamner via a comparison of feats is equivalent to someone like Ganner Kreig or Wolf Sazen, Shado at a push.

2. Quote? Or more conjecture?

3. You're getting so far away from the point it's not ever funny. Caedus' quote is ambiguous at best and the only comparison I can see for it is how Palpatine has reacted to duelists he could defeat "with difficulty", but should also by all rights stomp, which is how Caedus is to Saba. Drop the bias claim if you want, works for me lol.

4. Yeah, no. Pulling ten seconds out of your ass isn't going to cut it, sorry. There's no way to take that figure from Caedus saying he could kill Saba "with difficulty".

I'd say Caedus is quite humble. He shat himself at the notion of fighting Luke even though he did very well against him. Correct me if I'm wrong but he seems accurate most of the time, for a Sith. So yeah, I have no doubt in my mind that he could pull a Fisto on Saba. His feats suggest this and the Palpatine comparison aligns with it. Suggesting he wouldn't and that he would be given a decent fight by someone like Saba completely undermines who Caedus is meant to be - the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, the guy who dueled evenly with Luke, the guy who the "Sword of the Jedi" would be destroyed by without having "every possible advantage" on her side. Saba has nothing on that, whatsoever.

5. I don't see how Saba is on-par with Plo. People throw duelists on-par with Plo all the time because it's quite easy to do so. I don't think it's far fetched to put Krayt's head enforcer, and the guy who gave Cade Skywalker a very hard fight on that level. The chick whose best feat is against Kenth Hamner, on the other hand? Nah.

6. Who says I'm going back on Saba's quote? I'm not denying it, I'm just putting it in the correct perspective instead of pulling figures like 10 seconds out my ass.

7. Not seeing it. They had a very short spar, that doesn't necessarily denote that they are perfect equals or one is better in a real combat situation. It took Kenobi and Fisto an hour to find out who was better between them. Saesee Tiin dueled evenly with Mace in their short spar. It's definitely not enough to suggest Saba is on par with Corran. I tend to hold Corran in higher regard than her; he showed some very impressive skill in his fight with IIRC a Vong Warmaster, as well as his well-detailed and contested spar with Mara Jade where they were both suffering physically to a degree. Mara being someone I believe you have in that Kenobi/Maul pocket of dueling? So yeah, I really am not seeing Saba being up there.

SunRazer
1. Not exactly comparable feats. One is fighting somebody of just immense capacity, the other is of fighting not so immensely powerful enemies, but instead with severe hindrances to the very essence of one's fighting technique.

2. Her general depiction overall - Caedus's quote, and other things like the fact that Cilghal seems to consider her the among the best warriors on the Council. Cilghal also ceded inferiority to her as a warrior. Not as strong a basis as for Nihl, definitely, but to be fair, most NJO Jedi don't even have direct accolades to suggest they're the best of their time, sans Luke and Jaina.

3. That only works if you have any source suggesting Palpatine did in fact have difficulty in killing Kit, which you don't.

4. It's just a number, but the point is that "difficulty" isn't just an effort rating, but also a measure of how somebody else stacks up against you. I have never heard of any fight akin to Palpatine vs Fisto being called "difficult". There's a reason.

5. I rarely make comparisons to Plo, to be honest, Obi-Wan's less ambiguous and a better measuring stick. And given the amounts that some have improved via Force Rage is also worth taking into account, as his Saba holding back for at least a majority of the fight.

6. 10 seconds has no evidential criteria, sure, but at least its compatible with the idea of "difficult to beat" moreso than a virtual blitz.

7. It wasn't incredibly short - just that we only got two snippets of it because it was mostly focused on the others. And it's not decisive, true, but what we do see is Corran being on the defensive and making liberal use of his saber's extended reach to keep Saba at bay - who was using Jar'kai, which she's never used or been implied to use before - or at least not with her proficiency with a single blade.

Anyways, regarding Saba vs Nihl itself - I think suggesting she's outright more skilful is probably reaching, so I'll take that back, but being on par overall with her general fighting style and physical attributes being factored in shouldn't be a stretch. Nihl probably wins because, as I said, he's more powerful and has Lightning at his disposal.

Q99
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I didn't say his fight with Draco was necessarily planned (nor necessarily an accident), but Eshkar Niin intentionally faked his death and escaped the Empire's radar--that's confirmed. That line of thought makes me think he decided to throw the fight to that end tbh.

Possibly intentionally, but possibly just 'I got a lightsaber wound by my old student, survived, and decided to not advertise the fact.'

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
You're stretching the term "difficulty" into "difficult fight" - Palpatine had "difficulty" with Fisto but that doesn't mean it was much of a fight.

LMAO WHAT?

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
LMAO WHAT? I take it you didn't read the rest of my posts and just decided to take one sentence out of context? Deary me, Neph. I thought you were good at this. You should probably go back to guzzling Bane's dick at the DMB Empire while the big boys have their big boy conversations now, kay? big grin

carthage
How skilled do you think Saba is ILS?

ILS
She's ok

carthage
I honestly don't recall any notable skill feats from Saba apart from beating Welk who is fodder and outsparring Kenth who has only beaten Vong. Assuming Nihl has beaten someone who isn't a joke like Welk, or isn't the anus of the NJO like Hamner he probably wins.

ILS
thumb up

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
I take it you didn't read the rest of my posts and just decided to take one sentence out of context? Deary me, Neph. I thought you were good at this. You should probably go back to guzzling Bane's dick at the DMB Empire while the big boys have their big boy conversations now, kay? big grin

The context is that you're a complete goober. Sidious didn't have difficulty with Fisto, dude. Not even remotely. It's a utterly invalid comparison to Saba being difficult for Caedus to beat.

Now I remember how I pissed you off geez. Talk about insecure. laughing

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
The context is that you're a complete goober. Sidious didn't have difficulty with Fisto, dude. Not even remotely. It's a utterly invalid comparison to Saba being difficult for Caedus to beat. Like I said before, effort =/= difficulty. He completely stomped Fisto, nobody is disputing that. But he didn't perform the act easily, he put effort in. If you aren't capable of understanding that then I'm afraid it is you who is the goober.
lolwut. I'm not allowed to make fun of your terrible posts and be calm while doing so now? laughing out loud

If that's the case carthage must be in a permanent state of rage.

Nephthys
Vitiate arguably put effort into stomping his strike team, as much as Sidious did. Doesn't change the fact that he beat them "easily", as literally stated. But no, he absolutely did beat Fisto easily. He far eclipsed him and killed him ludicrously fast. It was easy. Although something doesn't have to be difficult if it wasn't easy.

Also lol @ you saying effort =/= difficulty then basing your argument around how much effort Sidious put in. Nice continuity. thumb up

It really is a bit pathetic that me laughing at one post of yours enrages you so much that you storm around the forum insulting me. Pathetic....... but a little flattering. wink

ILS
Definition of difficult:

"needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

I'd say Sidious required a fair bit of that to stomp Fisto. An easy stomp would be more akin to him casually handing Savage his ass while playing around with his lightsaber ignition and stabbing him with his back turned. I'm glad we're now on the same page. thumb up
Your interpretation of "enrage" and "storm around" is quite different from mine, Neph. It's not my fault that your posts were especially funny today. I mean, they weren't quite as bad as this one:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=612296&from=thread&pagenumber=2#post15202167

But they were certainly up there! I mean... saying Ulic should "last a bit" against Bane? Pretty hilarious if you ask me.

Nephthys
Except he didn't need to put in that effort to beat Fisto. Humoring you, it took him some effort to stomp him while fighting Mace Windu and 2 others at the same time, meaning that it wouldn't take him any at all to "deal with" him or to accomplish his victory. That's completely different from Caedus saying that it would be difficult for him to beat Saba at all. Maybe if he'd said "gosh, it would be hard for me to utterly destroy her in 2 seconds" you'd have a point. But he didn't, so you don't. It wasn't difficult for Sidious to beat Fisto. That he was going all out and Fisto therefore folded faster than a paper crane doesn't mean it was a difficult victory for him. That it's the complete opposite is why I laughed at you, because it's hilarious.

The more effort you put into denying that you have a thing for me the more transparent it gets.

Ciao-Ciao!

Stigma
Hmm... ILS makes some good points thumb up

carthage
He sent her flying into an explosion with the flick of his wrist, and she generally is nowhere near as skilled as him even with the implication in him considering her a "threat" (whatever that means). He even regarded Kyle as a challenge in spite of near bifurcating him and stomping him even with backup.

His opinion doesn't really match how she was dismissed, granted it wasn't an engagement based on pure skill between them on the Anakin Solo

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except he didn't need to put in that effort to beat Fisto. To beat him, no. To stomp him in the same manner? Who knows.
Nobody is disputing that Sidious could play around with Fisto before beating him.
It's down to interpretation ultimately, but personally I don't see how you and Nova's more generous interpretation is more valid than mine. Caedus would have difficulty defeating Saba? Cool. Sidious had a degree of difficulty defeating Fisto despite how one sided it was.
Rofl, I didn't realize the way he said it aids your argument any more than it does mine. Your argument is lacking horridly atm.
According to the dictionary, it was. thumb up
No, but the visible effort Sidious put into accomplishing the task does. Why is this difficult for you Neph? laughing out loud
The only part that's hilarious is the fact you've just gotten done accusing me of being insecure, upset and a borderline-stalker, yet here you are typing up a big paragraph of nonsense in an attempt to save face. Pretty pathetic and funny if you ask me. laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud
Or again, maybe you just find yourself to be a little bit too important. And again, if you didn't want my attention you'd have blocked me or asked me to stop talking to you by now. I didn't realize your fetish was acknowledging your stalker and then continuing a lengthy conversation with them. Pretty creepy, bro. laughing out loud

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
To beat him, no. To stomp him in the same manner? Who knows.

I hate to break it to you, but if you stomp someone by default it means the person isn't difficult to defeat. You numpty.

Case in point: I'm putting some effort into this reply, but by no means was this a difficult discussion for me to win. My victory was evident from the start. Its a stomp.

Originally posted by ILS
Nobody is disputing that Sidious could play around with Fisto before beating him.

Cool. Then your point is completely invalid. thumb up

Originally posted by ILS
It's down to interpretation ultimately, but personally I don't see how you and Nova's more generous interpretation is more valid than mine. Caedus would have difficulty defeating Saba? Cool. Sidious had a degree of difficulty defeating Fisto despite how one sided it was.

It really isn't open to interpretation. Saying Sidious had trouble beating Fisto because he needed to go all out to stomp him is like saying that because it was "difficult" for me to get an A on the test, it was difficult for me to pass the test. If you exceed the minimum requirements to accomplish something by miles then it is not difficult to accomplish something. Also Sidious was fighting 3 other people at the same time. erm

Originally posted by ILS
Rofl, I didn't realize the way he said it aids your argument any more than it does mine. Your argument is lacking horridly atm.

It's the other way around genius. You're the one trying to compare it to an example where Sidious stomped someone. Your argument is "hmmm weeeeeell i think, that maybe, he meant that it would be difficult for him to stomp Sababa." Me pointing out that this isn't a remotely valid comparison and not anything like what he said is a fair point and I advise you to concede.

Originally posted by ILS
No, but the visible effort Sidious put into accomplishing the task does. Why is this difficult for you Neph? laughing out loud

Yeah, it was so difficult for Sidious to kill someone in 3 attacks while fighting another person. A curbstomp fight is the definition of a tough fight amirite?

Originally posted by ILS
The only part that's hilarious is the fact you've just gotten done accusing me of being insecure, upset and a borderline-stalker, yet here you are typing up a big paragraph of nonsense in an attempt to save face. Pretty pathetic and funny if you ask me. laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud


Or again, maybe you just find yourself to be a little bit too important. And again, if you didn't want my attention you'd have blocked me or asked me to stop talking to you by now. I didn't realize your fetish was acknowledging your stalker and then continuing a lengthy conversation with them. Pretty creepy, bro. laughing out loud

I simply still believe in you ILS. You can do it! <3

ILS
The result of the fight has nothing to do with how difficult it was to reach that result. I guess I'll just post it for you again:

"needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

Case in point: It's causing you a lot of effort to understand, or become able to deal with, the fact that Sidious exerted effort into stomping Fisto, thus making his victory over him one attained through a degree of difficulty, regardless of whether or not it was a stomp.

I do enjoy your anger though.
Not at all. My point is that Caedus can still stomp Saba even if there is some difficulty involved in doing so.
Is exactly how it sounds, I agree. thumb up So does the dictionary, because as we now know, any activity in which a degree of effort is required to complete is one completed with a degree of difficulty. thumb up
The grading system analogy doesn't really translate well over to a battle between two fictional characters. erm
Now you just need proof that Sidious can stomp Fisto without much effort at all put in. When I say stomp I mean stomp him in the same manner as he did in RotS, just with very little effort on his part.
One, actually, since Kolar and Tiin were out of the way earlier on. thumb up

It's not an ideal comparison but it's the best one I can think of in terms of how Saba would react to a high tier going all out on them. Can you think of a better one?
I think it's a pretty valid comparison because, as we've discovered, Sidious was able to defeat someone along the lines of Saba, "with difficulty", but also in a stomp, which is a fair measuring stick for how Saba would perform. How she would perform for certain is not for me to know, I'm just giving a new perspective on the quote.

I think the main issue with our discussion is not that you want to support Saba but more that your embarrassment at not understanding what a relatively basic word means is tearing you up inside. It's okay Neph, nobody is perfect. thumb up
I didn't say it was exceedingly difficult, only that he stomped Fisto with difficulty, which is absolutely true.
And to think you're meant to be one of the "veteran" debaters around here. You're not too great at this, I must say. erm

SunRazer
All I'm going to say is that it mentions "beating" Saba with difficulty, not stomping her with difficulty. A stomp in of itself means that it's not difficult. So that's a pretty lowly interpretation. Unless a quote can be provided for Sidious slaying Fisto "with difficulty", that's just a subjective term slapped on with no canonical value. We should try to make ourselves open to interpretations, but we also do kind of need to support it with at least some evidence. You can't just claim that Sidious killed Fisto with difficulty because he used effort - if he killed a peasant with full effort, does that mean he had difficulty in doing so? No, it doesn't.

Even if you're using the definition of "requiring a lot of effort", again, the quote mentions him requiring a lot of effort just to beat Saba, not a lot of effort to destroy her. There's a distinction, and one that writers wouldn't neglect. So the whole argument about "a lot of effort to stomp" lacks basis.

At the very least, you could argue that Saba is just next to being stomped by Caedus, but not quite.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
The result of the fight has nothing to do with how difficult it was to reach that result. I guess I'll just post it for you again:

"needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

Case in point: It's causing you a lot of effort to understand, or become able to deal with, the fact that Sidious exerted effort into stomping Fisto, thus making his victory over him one attained through a degree of difficulty, regardless of whether or not it was a stomp.

I do enjoy your anger though.

I'm sorry but it does. It does have something to do with that! I'm so sorry. You must be very disappointed. You've posted why yourself:

"needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."

Sidious didn't "need" to put much effort or skill into beating Fisto. And he didn't merely accomplish beating him or deal with him. He curbstomped him. Which is a level beyond those descriptions. Curbstomping someone is well in excess to merely defeating them. By your own definition, Sidious did not need much effort or skill to deal with Fisto in their fight.

Originally posted by ILS
Not at all. My point is that Caedus can still stomp Saba even if there is some difficulty involved in doing so.

Your other point, about Fisto. You admitted that Sidious could clown him, so I win.

Originally posted by ILS
Is exactly how it sounds, I agree. thumb up So does the dictionary, because as we now know, any activity in which a degree of effort is required to complete is one completed with a degree of difficulty. thumb up

That isn't even what your quote says. laughing

It specifically says it's difficult if you need "much effort." That isn't the same as any degree. Maybe you should go look up the definition for "much" next, because somehow primary school children know the meaning of a word better than you do. haermm

Originally posted by ILS
The grading system analogy doesn't really translate well over to a battle between two fictional characters. erm

Why not? The underlying concept is the same. Just like I did not merely pass the test, I aced it, Sidious did not merely beat Fisto, he crushed him.

That you are unable to recognise that there are degree's to which something may be accomplished demonstrates a lack of intelligence on your part and is very troubling about your mental maturity.

Originally posted by ILS
Now you just need proof that Sidious can stomp Fisto without much effort at all put in. When I say stomp I mean stomp him in the same manner as he did in RotS, just with very little effort on his part.

no expression

P-Pretty sure I don't need to prove that. He already did stomp Fisto with very little effort, while also fighting Mace Windu at the same time. Killing someone in 3 attacks is very little effort.

Originally posted by ILS
One, actually, since Kolar and Tiin were out of the way earlier on. thumb up

Fisto was present for that, so Sidious was fighting him at the same time. It's just that he was too slow to actually do anything.

Originally posted by ILS
It's not an ideal comparison but it's the best one I can think of in terms of how Saba would react to a high tier going all out on them. Can you think of a better one?

Dooku vs Yoda, perhaps? Yoda can clearly defeat Dooku, but it would still be difficult for him to do so and require some no small effort on his part.

Originally posted by ILS
I think it's a pretty valid comparison because, as we've discovered, Sidious was able to defeat someone along the lines of Saba, "with difficulty", but also in a stomp, which is a fair measuring stick for how Saba would perform. How she would perform for certain is not for me to know, I'm just giving a new perspective on the quote.

You see, that's your problem. You've already decided that Fisto and Saba are comparable and are basing the evidence around your conclusion instead of basing the conclusion around the evidence. I'd say Saba is better than Fisto. Caedus would clown Fisto in a fight just like Sidious, but if Saba poses a challenge for him that's a strong indication of a higher level.

Originally posted by ILS
I think the main issue with our discussion is not that you want to support Saba but more that your embarrassment at not understanding what a relatively basic word means is tearing you up inside. It's okay Neph, nobody is perfect. thumb up

I don't actually want to support Saba and I didn't get into this spat with you because of that. I saw that you said something incredibly stupid so I pointed and laughed at the idiot.

Originally posted by ILS
I didn't say it was exceedingly difficult, only that he stomped Fisto with difficulty, which is absolutely true.

It absolutely is not true. Your quote says "need much effort". Sidious did not need much effort, he slaughtered him in 3 attacks while contending with someone else. It's a perfect example of a low-effort fight. And if he did "need" to put that much effort into the fight, it was because he was fighting Mace (mother****ing) Windu at the same time. Something you continually neglect to account for.

Originally posted by ILS
And to think you're meant to be one of the "veteran" debaters around here. You're not too great at this, I must say. erm

You know for someone claiming not to be obsessed with me, you sure are spending a long time arguing with me instead of responding to SunRazer.

ILS
Into attaining victory? Nope.

Into stomping him in three strikes? Questionable.
Your issue now is that you believe "curbstomping" can't possibly fall under the umbrella term "defeating" - Caedus can defeat Saba "with difficulty". The question is what the nature of this victory would be - a curbstomp, a decent fight? It's ambiguous. You seem to believe that "dealing with" someone cannot possibly also mean stomping them. Not true.
Clown him, sure.

But he didn't clown Savage in three moves. He clowned him in like, 7, or 10. He did it effortlessly but he didn't get the same results would he have put in effort. Would he have put in effort I'm sure Sidious would have went from clowning Savage in over a handful of moves to Fisto'ing him.

That's the level I see Saba at, which is why I'm making these comparisons. I know later on you go on to say "base your conclusion around evidence, Saba can contend with Caedus", and I'd agree if it was explicitly stated that she can contend with him. But she can't. She's just difficult to defeat, in whatever manner that means.
Lol, you're getting awfully excited because I tripped up on my phrasing. Is this perhaps the highlight of your day, Neph? I do hope not. eek!
I've acknowledged that there are degrees.

The point that you are missing is that you have not yet produced anything to suggest that Sidious, without applying "much effort" (wink ), can wipe Fisto out in three moves.
No, killing someone in three attacks constitutes a stomp, not how much effort went into attaining that stomp. Show me Sidious stomping Fisto, or someone similar, in three or less moves while not exerting "much effort".
Fisto was present for that, so Sidious was fighting him at the same time. It's just that he was too slow to actually do anything.

This is entirely plausible. As is my theory.

With that said, the fact Saba has a good amount of difficulty with Kenth Hamner, I'm thinking she's more along the lines of Fisto than Dooku.

How noble of you. laughing out loud

Hence why in my last post I said it wasn't the perfect comparison. However it's not like Fisto suddenly becomes a bag of potatoes without Mace there. He still deflected what came his way for as long as he could, whereas other duelists like Aayla Secura have been put on their asses in one hit while engaging lesser duelists, even with Mace at their side to carry some of the weight.



As soon as he agreed Nihl is more skilled than Saba I was done, tbh. We talk outside of KMC so I didn't feel the need to press him on it anymore here in a formal matter. That okay with you, dear? Happy Dance

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