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I don't see why Kyp isn't ANH Vader's equal with a blade, and his physicals outweigh Ben's. He'll outlast Ben eventually.

Ehhhhhhhh......I really wanna say Ben but I think youth takes this. RotS Kenobi would have the stamina to win.

Kyp being overhyped as per usual.

Kenobi wins. He was a pretty even fight for someone better than Kyp in every physical area and more skilled, and it was stated if Vader had taken his mind out of the fight for a moment Kenobi could have killed him. Better fight for Kyp would be someone a little lower tier, where he is in his era.

Originally posted by ILS
Kyp being overhyped as per usual.

Kenobi wins. He was a pretty even fight for someone better than Kyp in every physical area and more skilled, and it was stated if Vader had taken his mind out of the fight for a moment Kenobi could have killed him. Better fight for Kyp would be someone a little lower tier, where he is in his era.

Yeah on second thought I'll give it to Ben. He's my first instinct.

Originally posted by ILS
Kyp being overhyped as per usual.

Kenobi wins. He was a pretty even fight for someone better than Kyp in every physical area and more skilled, and it was stated if Vader had taken his mind out of the fight for a moment Kenobi could have killed him. Better fight for Kyp would be someone a little lower tier, where he is in his era.

Oh sure, lol. I'm underrating Legacy every time I don't put them as high as you do, but I'm overhyping people in sources you haven't read because you want it to be that way? Let's just say we don't see eye-to-eye on Legacy and NJO.

It wasn't stated by the omniscient narrator - it was Vader's fears. And the same would logically apply to Ben, except Ben risked a look away from the fight with no consequences. Vader's musings still suggested that he thought himself superior anyway, but like on the Mustafar fight, he feared that Ben could obtain the victory in some surprising manner. That was why he endeavored to leave no openings and feared that Ben could kill him if he was distracted. He was openly shocked at the end of the fight when Ben "surrendered", but he thought that Ben was too slow to retaliate anyway.

What has ANH Vader done to surpass somebody who is very close to Kyle Katarn as a swordsman? Vader could be on par with Kyle, which I suppose makes him better than Kyp, but it's still slight.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Oh sure, lol. I'm underrating Legacy every time I don't put them as high as you do, but I'm overhyping people in sources you haven't read because you want it to be that way? Sources I haven't read? Lol, I'm the one who found out that Kyp has never dueled Jaina "evenly" despite it being in your respect thread among a bunch of other misinterpreted showings coming from NJO fans. It's insufferable debating people who you have to do their job for and represent the character you're in the thread for in the first place.

And yes, you are underrating Legacy. All of the information you get about the era tends to be second hand, which is why a thread as disastrous as Nihl vs Saba was allowed to go on for more than a page.

*implying Vader isn't credible*

The fact that it was a high possibility is what is important. Kyp would honestly be taken to school by Vader.
None of this really disputes my points that Ben was both very capable of killing Vader, warranting his full attention, and that it was a close fight. Put Kyp in Ben's shoes and I highly doubt he'd do as well.

Setting aside the ridiculous amount of stretching that accolade is receiving; being considered one of the best "Imperial" duelists of all time, repeatedly stomping groups of Jedi even while still adjusting to his suit, fighting evenly with Galen Marek despite the fact Galen knew his form intimately and was faster than him (Galen having "near-perfect" skills, a Juyo master and having built up a nice long track record of wins), stomping Boba Fett despite the fact the same Boba has made a career out of killing Jedi, contended with Obi-Wan and stomped Rahm Kota, being capable of completely stomping Ferus Olin, and of course, dueling evenly with ANH Kenobi, who still retains a fair amount of his old skill despite both that and his physicals degrading over the years.

Vader has a nice long track record of impressive wins. Kyp maybe might be on a Tuesday sort of as skilled as Kyle. I know who I'm siding with.

No comment on Kyle.

1. That's the only misinterpreted showing, except perhaps for Mara and Lumiya. And it's not like you don't have misinterpreted showings lying around either - especially with the Ulic vs Sylvar feat still being wanked to hell at this moment. At least none of those misinterpreted showings form the basis of my arguments.

2. Of course he's not, but it's a fear, not canon. It's a double-standard to accept this but not what Caedus claims.

3. Kyp isn't getting taken to school when inferior duelists to himself have kept pace with Vader. That's just you belittling the NJO era.

4. Based on what?

5. That accolade doesn't have ridiculous stretching. If somebody is a potential match for either A, or if not, then B, it means the two are very close. Nobody said anything about them being equals (I just stated that Kyle's above Kyp).

"Imperial" implies being within Palpatine's Empire - I'm sure Kyp is among the finest swordsmen of that group if he were to be placed there as well. Galen's wins of the account of sheer lightsaber skill are hardly better than Kyp's, and IIRC, he managed to find an opening. Boba's fight with Vader was of different circumstance to Boba's fight with Obi-Wan and Kota, and that's not the same as fighting Force-users. Ferus isn't an amazing fighter either. Both Roan Shyrne and the Dark Woman were not "taken to school" in a clash against Vader, and neither of them match Kyp in sabers.

Vader could be more skilled than Kyp, but definitely not drastically as you're suggesting, and how it translates to Ben is different because at this point in time Ben's defensive talents seem to be his greatest asset - his offensive skills only become apparent if his opponents are actually being distracted, which won't be the case here.

6. That's pretty much a concession. Kyle is a pretty major part of my argument, so if you want me to listen to you, you just need to make me believe that ANH Vader's above Kyle.

1. I've never misinterpreted one thing about Ulic vs Sylvar, you just whine about the feat whenever it's brought up is all. You on the other hand have passed off hand-to-hand brawls as lightsaber duels, flat out made up duels that never happened, tried to pass of Leia as deflecting thousands of blaster bolts in three seconds/running 10 miles in a few seconds as accurate, and so on. I've had to do as much debunking as debating when it comes to debating NJO, which is why I'm sick of it. Having said that, the day I pick up the novels is the day the wank dies

2. I accept what Caedus said as much as I accept what Vader said. I'm just telling you why you're stretching Caedus' quote beyond it's worth.

3. Nah, sorry, the "____ dueled Vader, why not Kyp" logic isn't flying here. That's just a fallacy you never seem to be able to drop. If Kyp had feats to support the case that he can challenge Vader, you'd start with them instead of trying to apply feats of other characters to Kyp, as if by principle they need to be lesser than him, when it's not necessarily the case.

4. Burden of proof is on you to prove he would.

5. It was said the guy might be a match for Kyle, or might be a match for Kyp. That barely implies parity between them outside of Luke considering them experts lol. I can't believe you and others would have people believe Kyle and Kyp are equals based off of that nonsense.

But he doesn't have that accolade so your conjecture is worthless. And all I see in this paragraph is a long list of excuses topped off by the "inferior duelist could do it" fallacy once again. Maybe instead of lowballing other characters down to Kyp's level you could try proving Kyp has feats to support being as good as Darth Vader?

6. A good sign of losing a debate is accepting concessions where there are none. I don't care about Kyle because his abilities don't apply to Kyp, and never will. If you want me to listen to you, start using sound logic, or better yet, provide characters from other eras the same respect you would NJO. Going by your rankings atm one of the main characters from the NJO series that is one of the poorest duelists out of the cast is as good as one of the best duelists out there, or alternatively one of the mid-tier NJO fighters would become the third best duelist once stepping into the Legacy era, which is honestly pretty funny. I can't imagine picking up an issue of Legacy and seeing Saba standing over Nihl's body ready to take on Krayt. Pretty ridiculous, and funny.

1. The transition into hand-to-hand and the stuff that went on behind it was somewhat indicative of skill at least, and I did approach others with the query of what it might have been. Leia deflecting that number of blaster bolts was something I decided to stop for the sake of no longer arguing with you - you had no case against it whatsoever except that you disliked the speed feat because that would make Leia Plagueis-tier in speed - even though that isn't ridiculous because Leia's innate potential compares to Luke, meaning her Force strength is naturally colossal. As a result, you said it was hyperbole and kept pressing the case and I decided to stop having that debate with you because it was just stupid.

You're stretching the Ulic vs Sylvar feat if you think it was a legitimate competition. Ulic reacting at all is a very good feat, I admit that, and so is his parrying of Sylvar's attacks, but the fact is that he only clashed blades briefly with strain before retreating until he was cornered. In the past you've passed it off as a legitimate, near-equal standoff between the two, which I just don't agree with. If I try to bring it up, you say that I'm viewing it in the worst possible light out of bias, but I can say the same about you with this as well, I'm just doing what I can to not do so.

2, 3, 4. The fact that Luke regarded Kyp as an expert swordsmaster and that he was in Kyle's tier of skill proves he can hold up to Vader. If he's in Kyle's tier, he's in Vader's tier, which makes him able to hold his own. And stomping a Vong in his very first encounter makes him a respectable duelist as well.

5. What's laughable is the fact that you're still insisting that I have Kyp and Kyle as equals despite the fact that I made it clear that Kyp is beneath Kyle in my mind. That kind of discredits your whole paragraph on that, and as I said, the quote at least shows that Kyp is in Kyle's tier, and seeing that Kyle is on par with Vader and that beings who are a tier behind can compete (see Qui-Gon vs Maul), there's nothing to imply that Vader would school Kyp utterly. Win? Yes, probably. But destroy? You have no evidence at all for something like that.

And I love how you tell me off for this but take the quote seemingly stating Ulic and Luke as equal duelists like gospel - except it doesn't say anything like that. It only says they're both excellent swordsmen. It's an even weaker case than Kyp being on par with Kyle, and I didn't even stretch it to that yet.

6. I said Saba only has a slight edge over Nihl in skill at most, or about equal, but would probably lose on the account of Nihl's power. And I didn't imply Saba is Cade's equal, if you're suggesting that.

What you envision doesn't matter to me in the slightest, though, not with what you've previously envisioned anyway.

1. So I guess blasters that spit out 3000-5000 blaster bolts in a few seconds is a thing now? I guess Alema Rar with one arm and literally anyone else who has exchanged blows with Leia evenly is Plagueis-tier speed now? I guess Caedus can effortlessly stomp someone as fast as Plagueis now? Please listen to the garbage you're posting for a second before you post it. Leia isn't that good, it's clearly hyperbole and to deny otherwise is ridiculous.

I've never said they fought evenly, I've always maintained that Ulic "held his own" and that he was only fighting defensively, which are both true.

2. Nah, he's not in Kyle's tier because the quote doesn't suggest that, sorry. Defeating one Vong doesn't make you Vader-tier.

5. They were considered equals until I and only I debated the point. Otherwise everyone on Comic Vine would still be operating as sheep and thinking Kyp is as good as Kyle. That simple. Were I to give ground on the matter I guarantee the standards would go back to their original form.

The rest of the paragraph is nonsense. You always create some big daisy chain argument for why a duelist you're supporting is as good as Qui-Gon, and Qui-Gon contended with Maul. Ridiculous logic.

It says that Ulic is an early version of Luke Skywalker because of traits they hold in equal quantity; swordsmanship, temper, ambition and so on. An out-of-universe, creator commentary making a clear comparison between two character is worth well more than Luke's inner musings that someone might be as good as A or B. Especially when someone thinks that it implies parity between A and B when it really doesn't. Keep looking for double standards, doe. It's fun debunking them.

6. She has no edge - that's ridiculous. You're still picking up this habit of trying to push for lower tier NJO characters as being high tier in every other era. Anyone remember Mara Jade being able to inherit Exar Kun's dueling accolades were she to step into his era? It's the same repetitive nonsense.

You don't have to worry yourself with my "envisions", just be concerned with how ridiculous some of your viewpoints are.

Kenobi. Kyp doesnt have the feats to contend

He has the feats to contend, just not enough to win imo.

Originally posted by Trocity
He has the feats to contend, just not enough to win imo. what sbaer feats would those be?

Tbh, using Vader's feats and translating them to Ben doesn't seem a good idea, because the former was stated as being better than the latter:

As the blade of the Dark Lord's lightsaber reduced his fomer Jedi Master to nothingness, Vader's relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi seemed to have come full circle from Mustafar. The Dark Lord's victory proved that he was now the master, both of the lightsaber and the Force itself.

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #1 (2013/2014)

And this is coming from an objective, out of universe source.

Lol at having to prove Vader is on par with Katarn

Kenobi has the slight edge in a lightsaber battle. In an all out fight, Kyp's force power gives him the win.

To be fair Kyp Durron held his own against Jaina while she was still a knight, granted this well before her prime:

pg-266 Dark Journey

Originally posted by carthage
To be fair Kyp Durron held his own against Jaina while she was still a knight, granted this well before her prime:

pg-266 Dark Journey

I interpreted that as Kyp holding back and just letting Jaina play out her frustrations. Kyp was very confident that he would win, and I doubt anyone is going to argue that Jaina > Kyp in NJO.

She had better skill showings than him in general in that time period other than raw power. But yeah agreed on all other counts