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*Lightsabers only

Battle takes place on Jabba's skiff

ROTJ Luke stomps.

Meetra and Scourge were getting trounced by Nyriss in pure sabers.

This is KOTOR 2 version.

Then that's even worse.

I'm sick and tired of people saying "Nope, no power gained".

Every time she killed someone, she got stronger.

Kotor Meetra is weaker then Novel Meetra, it's in the future.

People don't just stop training because we haven't seen what they've been doing, and when they train, they ALWAYS grow at least a LITTLE bit in power.

Meetra becomes the Sarlaac's next lunch.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Then that's even worse.

I'm sick and tired of people saying "Nope, no power gained".

Every time she killed someone, she got stronger.

Kotor Meetra is weaker then Novel Meetra, it's in the future.

People don't just stop training because we haven't seen what they've been doing, and when they train, they ALWAYS grow at least a LITTLE bit in power.
The **** are you talking about?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The **** are you talking about?

**** knows, I think most people have just started ignoring his posts.

Meetra wins, BTW.

Originally posted by Selenial
**** knows, I think most people have just started ignoring his posts.

Meetra wins, BTW. Because Meetra totally can beat Vader in Sabers like Luke did.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Because Meetra totally can beat Vader in Sabers like Luke did.

Just lol, really.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The **** are you talking about? Like, people have a habit of thinking that unless it's shown in canon, a character never grows in power.

Like, Revan never growing in power.

It's my understanding, that, with time, every single force sensitive will always be stronger then their former selves.

Originally posted by Selenial
Just lol, really. So, are you going to put up an argument, or just keep saying "lol"?

Meetra's wound allows her to mirror and perfect her opponents style, she mastered all 7 forms of Lightsaber combat to levels that astounded council members. She bested a Dark Jedi, empowered by Holocrons using dark attacks such as lightning and crush, who also happened to be a master of the rarest sabre form, solely through her own mastery of the blade.

She beat a trained-from-birth Shadow Hand with her fists, defeated a Sith capable of dodging Lightsaber strikes from a trained Echani warrior effortlessly and took Valor, Speed and Force Resistance to "their highest degree". She also fought off a beast that could kill a Jedi with a single strike.

She has the strength advantage, the speed advantage, a major form advantage and what is basically an in depth knowledge of her opponents style. She has Echani battle precognition that simply adds to the almost endless list of reasons she wins.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Like, people have a habit of thinking that unless it's shown in canon, a character never grows in power.

Like, Revan never growing in power.

It's my understanding, that, with time, every single force sensitive will always be stronger then their former selves.

Except she literally lost power, since she healed the Wound in the force that was giving her strength originally.

Yet Revan would still "kick her ass."

I'm siding with Luke. The guy fought Vader to a stalemate in pure lightsabers - I'm not sure even Revan could do that.

Originally posted by Selenial
Meetra's wound allows her to mirror and perfect her opponents style, she mastered all 7 forms of Lightsaber combat to levels that astounded council members. She bested a Dark Jedi, empowered by Holocrons using dark attacks such as lightning and crush, who also happened to be a master of the rarest sabre form, solely through her own mastery of the blade.

She beat a trained-from-birth Shadow Hand with her fists, defeated a Sith capable of dodging Lightsaber strikes from a trained Echani warrior effortlessly and took Valor, Speed and Force Resistance to "their highest degree". She also fought off a beast that could kill a Jedi with a single strike.

She has the strength advantage, the speed advantage, a major form advantage and what is basically an in depth knowledge of her opponents style. She has Echani battle precognition that simply adds to the almost endless list of reasons she wins. ROTJ Luke beat Vader in pure sabers though...

Where do you even put Meetra in terms of tiering???

What has Meetra ever done that is even close to that?

Originally posted by Selenial
Except she literally lost power, since she healed the Wound in the force that was giving her strength originally. When was this said?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yet Revan would still "kick her ass."

I'm siding with Luke. The guy fought Vader to a stalemate in pure lightsabers - I'm not sure even Revan could do that. Well, Revan is at least ROTS' Anakin level in sabers.

Revan would probably win, being god and all. The Heart of the Force, and some such nonsense.

Surik would probably make him work for it, but without her Force advantage, she'd still lose against RotJ Luke. She'd have a chance against ESB Luke, though.

@Jman: And Vader isn't?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
ROTJ Luke beat Vader in pure sabers though...

Where do you even put Meetra in terms of tiering???

What has Meetra ever done that is even close to that?

He didn't though, he was on the Back foot the entire time and only actually won when a rage induced force-strength match with Vader put him ahead. Vader wasn't trying to kill him, he was trying to convert him, Luke had no such reservations at that point.

Oh, and Meetra beat a superior force user on a "Collosal geyser of pure dark side energy" that made her physically ill, using her skills with a blade. Noting of course that Traya was herself a Lightsaber Master.

Kotor 2 Exile tier wise? Idk, I vary a lot.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Revan would probably win, being god and all. The Heart of the Force, and some such nonsense.

Surik would probably make him work for it, but without her Force advantage, she'd still lose against RotJ Luke. She'd have a chance against ESB Luke, though.

See, Lightsaber only includes all saber bolstering powers, and Force Enlightenment is literally the highest tier of Saber-boosting powers you can have, tbh.

That's why I said he'd have to work for it. Unless you mean against Revan, and then that's just a lost cause.

Originally posted by Selenial
He didn't though, he was on the Back foot the entire time and only actually won when a rage induced force-strength match with Vader put him ahead. Vader wasn't trying to kill him, he was trying to convert him, Luke had no such reservations at that point.

Oh, and Meetra beat a superior force user on a "Collosal geyser of pure dark side energy" that made her physically ill, using her skills with a blade. Noting of course that Traya was herself a Lightsaber Master.

Kotor 2 Exile tier wise? Idk, I vary a lot.

Force rage is not a real force power, it's a stupid move in TFU that I've never ever seen used anywhere else.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's why I said he'd have to work for it. Unless you mean against Revan, and then that's just a lost cause.

Yeh but I'm confused by your logic. Let's analyse this right?

I've said she has: Speed advantage, Strength advantage, knowledge advantage, skill advantage, experience advantage and more.

Y'all's response is: He beat Vader doe.

Well, no. There were other reasons behind why he beat Vader. We don't have conclusive evidence to say Surik wouldn't, they've never fought. A>B>C logic is fail logic, so prove he's better at any of the above categories and we'll talk.

No, he beat Vader legit, and it is canon (apparently) that Vader = ROTJ Luke.

How does the Exile have a speed, strength, and skill advantage? "He beat Vader doe," is good evidence that she lacks all of those things here, and knowledge won't exactly make her a Battlemaster.

Also, Luke was holding back way more in the beginning then Vader was, at least Vader was actively trying to attack him, when Luke was all "I will not fight you, Father".

Seriously, Luke didn't even make an attempt to hurt him in the slightest until Vader started spouting all that shit about Leia.

Then, Luke beat Vader, badly.

LIKE, really, REALLY badly.

REALLY REALLY badly?

I have no idea why that made me laugh so hard.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Force rage is not a real force power, it's a stupid move in TFU that I've never ever seen used anywhere else.

Please stop, this post made me lose faith in the fanbase(or what was left of it at least).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yet Revan would still "kick her ass."

I'm siding with Luke. The guy fought Vader to a stalemate in pure lightsabers - I'm not sure even Revan could do that.
Your lack of faith in Revan is disturbing.

Luke probably takes this in a decent fight if anything. I'm not sure where to rank her in terms of skill, but none of what's being posted suggests she could defeat someone who can fight on even terms with Vader.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your lack of faith in Revan is disturbing.

Shots fired.

revan and his fanboys sux tbh

Meetra is a highly competent lightsaber combatant, IMHO. She outdueled Fallen Jedi Master Atris, Handmaidens, Darth Sion, Darth Traya and Imperial Guards. This is very impressive performance since most of these opponents are officially master swordsmen.

A single loss doesn't takes away from Meetra's holistic performance. Luke Skywalker have lost and struggled in battles too, do we hold his losses and struggles against him?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
revan and his fanboys sux tbh
Yep. Especially since all he did was bring shame on House Shan.

Originally posted by Based
Shots fired.
Countered with a Lightsaber. Then unleashed a wave of energy towards the shooters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Meetra is a highly competent lightsaber combatant, IMHO. She outdueled Fallen Jedi Master Atris, Handmaidens, Darth Sion, Darth Traya and Imperial Guards. This is very impressive performance since most of these opponents are officially master swordsmen.

A single loss doesn't takes away from Meetra's holistic performance. Luke Skywalker have lost and struggled in battles too, do we hold his losses and struggles against him?

Saesee Tiin was a "master swordsman".

Let that sink in for a bit.

Meetra has feats to put her very easily above Saesee Tiin, though. She just has nothing to indicate she can defeat someone that bested Vader. Saesee is quite literally nothing but accolades and a brief spar with Windu

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Meetra is a highly competent lightsaber combatant, IMHO. She outdueled Fallen Jedi Master Atris, Handmaidens, Darth Sion, Darth Traya and Imperial Guards. This is very impressive performance since most of these opponents are officially master swordsmen.

A single loss doesn't takes away from Meetra's holistic performance. Luke Skywalker have lost and struggled in battles too, do we hold his losses and struggles against him?

It's not that, its the fact she had help from Scourge, who was on equal terms with Meetra, and even then, they were getting destroyed.

I don't think they had the upperhand for a single moment, and remember, the majority of the fight was sabers.

Darth Nyriss was amplified by the extreme dark side energies of Dromund Kaas and the massive archive of Sith paraphernalia throughout her compound. It is stated on three separate occasions the she was too fast and strong to keep up with because her amplified power translated into extreme physical augmentation.

Even despite this Meetra Surik was holding her own in the duel for a limited time and this despite the fact she suffered from a decreased connection to the Force whilst on the planet, a connection which had already suffered severely on Nathema days beforehand.

Now take into account what user Selenial pointed out, Meetra Surik took internal amplifications to the highest possible degree(though I didn't know that myself admittedly). This combat speed is shown in two fights:

1.She analyses a group of mercenaries and telekinetically throws one into a cave wall with sufficient kinetic Force she died on impact... all in half of a second.

2.She faces Imperial Guardsmen whom are empowered by the Emperor to the degree that even Revan's TK is ineffective on one of them, she kills two of them in a few seconds. These being the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the entire organization charged by the Sith Emperor himself to protect him.

Both of these feats were accomplished on Dromund Kaas, where again her connection to the Force is diminished by the exteme Dark Side energies of the planet. On a neutral playing field she would be even faster in combat.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Nyriss was amplified by the extreme dark side energies of Dromund Kaas and the massive archive of Sith paraphernalia throughout her compound. It is stated on three separate occasions the she was too fast and strong to keep up with because her amplified power translated into extreme physical augmentation.

Even despite this Meetra Surik was holding her own in the duel for a limited time and this despite the fact she suffered from a decreased connection to the Force whilst on the planet, a connection which had already suffered severely on Nathema days beforehand.

She still lost the fight and Nyriss is nowhere near in the same realm as skilled as Vader. Also loling at her "holding her own" the text even says she was outmatched.



Not sure why you're bringing that point up either, as the version I'm using in this thread is KOTOR 2 Surik. And no beating fodder guards is in no way comparable to beating the Greatest Imperial duelist and one of the canonically best Jedi slayers of all time.

KotOR 2 Surik is probably more versatile and has more responsive skill (even though Luke is remarkable in these regards as well), but in terms of sheer lightsaber prowess, I'd say Luke edges her out.

Originally posted by Selenial
He didn't though, he was on the Back foot the entire time and only actually won when a rage induced force-strength match with Vader put him ahead. Vader wasn't trying to kill him, he was trying to convert him, Luke had no such reservations at that point.

Oh, and Meetra beat a superior force user on a "Collosal geyser of pure dark side energy" that made her physically ill, using her skills with a blade. Noting of course that Traya was herself a Lightsaber Master.

Kotor 2 Exile tier wise? Idk, I vary a lot.

He didn't just beat him through "dark rage", he forced him on the defensive multiple times as well.



-Return of the Jedi novelization.

Before that Luke even force him on the defensive, so its quite obvious he negated Vader's Strength advantage over him



-Credit to Shootingnova/Newguy

And even in spite of Traya's amp she hasn't got a skill feat comparable to Vader at all.

Originally posted by carthage
She still lost the fight and Nyriss is nowhere near in the same realm as skilled as Vader. Also loling at her "holding her own" the text even says she was outmatched.



Not sure why you're bringing that point up either, as the version I'm using in this thread is KOTOR 2 Surik. And no beating fodder guards is in no way comparable to beating the Greatest Imperial duelist and one of the canonically best Jedi slayers of all time.

Nyriss didn't win via skill, but through speed and physical strength. Nice you managed to quote the wrong part of the fight, well done. The book also states that Surik fought her but was overwhelmed regardless and was going to be cut through her midrim, if not for Darth Sion.

Malachor V Surik is about 10 weeks before Dromund Kaas Surik, not seeinga huge difference in power. Unless you take Traya and Sion's statements that Surik becomes more powerful than Traya to a very serious degree.

Regardless I am replying to Jmanghan's claiming that the one Nyriss feat somehow retcons every other feat she has accomplished.

You seem upset, Ancient. Surik a raw spot for you in debates?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nyriss didn't win via skill, but through speed and physical strength. Nice you managed to quote the wrong part of the fight, well done. The book also states that Surik fought her but was overwhelmed regardless and was going to be cut through her midrim, if not for Darth Sion.

Malachor V Surik is about 10 weeks before Dromund Kaas Surik, not seeinga huge difference in power. Unless you take Traya and Sion's statements that Surik becomes more powerful than Traya to a very serious degree.

Regardless I am replying to Jmanghan's claiming that the one Nyriss feat somehow retcons every other feat she has accomplished.

I never claimed Nyriss was more skilled than Surik, and you also acknowledged that she was beaten down regardless so well done yourself . I personally listed KOTOR 2 Exile, but if you want to acknowledge Revan Meetra- you do so at your own peril. Traya and Sion are fodder to Vader in terms of sheer lightsaber skill/mastery/feats. Unless you've got someone better that Surik has beaten that surpasses Luke beating Vader, I think we're done here

Originally posted by carthage
She still lost the fight and Nyriss is nowhere near in the same realm as skilled as Vader. Also loling at her "holding her own" the text even says she was outmatched.
You hype Darth Vader too much. Darth Vader may have the strength and skill to contend with Darth Nyriss but the latter likely have advantage in the matters of command of the Force and speed.

Check this thread for reference: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-611486-starkiller-vs-darth-nyriss-sabers-only.html

Originally posted by carthage
Not sure why you're bringing that point up either, as the version I'm using in this thread is KOTOR 2 Surik. And no beating fodder guards is in no way comparable to beating the Greatest Imperial duelist and one of the canonically best Jedi slayers of all time.
Fodder Imperial Guard?

They are not fodder if Jedi powers don't effect them and they are able to match Jedi and Sith in combat prowess.

Originally posted by carthage
I never claimed Nyriss was more skilled than Surik, and you also acknowledged that she was beaten down regardless so well done yourself . I personally listed KOTOR 2 Exile, but if you want to acknowledge Revan Meetra- you do so at your own peril. Traya and Sion are fodder to Vader in terms of sheer lightsaber skill/mastery/feats. Unless you've got someone better that Surik has beaten that surpasses Luke beating Vader, I think we're done here
I wouldn't go as far as to assert that Darth Traya is fodder to Darth Vader. Nope.

Darth Traya have demonstrated expertise in the use of Force powers that are among the most difficult to master; a sign of great potential, talent, and command of the Force. In short, Darth Traya was able to wield the Force in ways Darth Vader never could.

Originally posted by ILS
You seem upset, Ancient. Surik a raw spot for you in debates?

Is this your contribution to debates now? my how far you have fallen.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Is this your contribution to debates now? my how far you have fallen. Least he isn't XxSUPREMESKILLZxX

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I wouldn't go as far as to assert that Darth Traya is fodder to Darth Vader. Nope.

Darth Traya have demonstrated expertise in the use of Force powers that are among the most difficult to master; a sign of great potential, talent, and command of the Force. In short, Darth Traya was able to wield the Force in ways Darth Vader never could. Such as?

I know everyone vouches for her haxing force powers. "10/10 BEST DRAIN, DRAIN OF THE YEAR!"

When in reality, it isn't impressive in the slightest, and there's no guarantee lesser characters couldn't replicate it.

Originally posted by carthage
I never claimed Nyriss was more skilled than Surik, and you also acknowledged that she was beaten down regardless so well done yourself . I personally listed KOTOR 2 Exile, but if you want to acknowledge Revan Meetra- you do so at your own peril. Traya and Sion are fodder to Vader in terms of sheer lightsaber skill/mastery/feats. Unless you've got someone better that Surik has beaten that surpasses Luke beating Vader, I think we're done here

You argued that Nyriss was nowhere near as skilled as Darth Vader despite the fact Nyriss wasn't winning via skill. Instead she won via speed, but even then as the novel states she was able to defend herself due to lightsaber skill.

They are not two different characters, all of her feats are valid in this debate.

Oh and Luke was not beating an all-out Vader, Luke was hiding from a Vader that was trying to convert him, when Luke decided to go all-out Vader was far from prepared and lost in very short order. Coincidentally Luke himself states that if Darth Vader had intended to kill him he would be dead.

ROTJ Luke is not Vader tier and never has been Carthage so make a proper argument concerning whom ROTJ Luke defeated in all-out.

Make sure it compares to walking the surface of Malachor V:



Which is also covered in toxic fumes:



Whilst fighting the powerful Storm Beasts:









Then an amped legion of Elite Sith:



amped Darth Sion and finally amped Darth Traya:





On Malachor V:



Thanks to EvanNova64/ShootingNova/SunRazer.

No I didn't I said Nyriss was nowhere near as skilled as Vader and pointed out where in Revan the text says she was outmatched in her fight. Nowhere did I say Nyriss was more skilled than Meetra, Nyriss won due to being amped by DK. Try again. I make no claims for Meetra's skill, other than her being inferior to Luke by virtue of not having beaten anyone apart from beings that are largely accolades and lack the showings of Vader.





Ok, I'll acknowledge her beating Non force sensitive guards whom Luke and Vader would stomp easily



All of which is completely invalidated by canon sources . In addition to the quotes I posted earlier:





Vader also considered Luke a worthy opponent as of the Empire strikes back


--Shadows of the Empire






Maybe you should try reading my OP this battle is sabers only?



So what I'm gathering is none of the opponents you've listed remotely come close to Vader in skill. She killed Storm beasts? That's nice tell me how random beasts would somehow be an adequate gauge of her abilities as a ligthsaber combatant? It isn't or I can just point out that Vader killed Lyleks that can besiege entire cities, even though that has no bearing whatsoever on Vader's abilities as a duelist so much as defeating skilled opponents




Not sure how beating fodder Sith >>> beating a guy and negating the strength advantage of one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos




Sion is a joke of a duelist barring his near-immortality, and Traya has no skill feats of note that would compare to Vader as a duelist.

Her being afflicted by a nexus is worth mentioning, but considering how her opponents have next to feats to determine how skilled they are-I'm not sure how any of that at all compares to someone like Vader or being able to hold his own against Vader in ESB in spite of virtually no training.

LMAO at using the movie novels that are so far out of date it's hilarious. Plenty of sources have stated Vader never went all out against Luke in either confrontation.

Oh and calling the elite Sith of an order founded upon the most combat experienced and well-trained era of Jedi ever all fodder and featless is hilarious in all honesty, lowballing the entire KOTOR era isn't going to convince any body.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LMAO at using the movie novels that are so far out of date it's hilarious. Plenty of sources have stated Vader never went all out against Luke in either confrontation.

Oh and calling the elite Sith of an order founded upon the most combat experienced and well-trained era of Jedi ever all fodder and featless is hilarious in all honesty, lowballing the entire KOTOR era isn't going to convince any body.

Proof? And Disregarding canon sources that don't support your point of view is laughable , especially when you've provided no evidence that Meetra is in any sense more skilled than Luke per feats. You have no problem sucking Exar's cock with "out of date" sources from the TOTJ handbook

No but actually showing a single instance where Meetra has defeated an opponent superior to Vader in feats would really help your cause

Originally posted by AncientPower
the most combat experienced and well-trained era of Jedi ever

Swtor padawans have more combat experience than veteran soldiers brah. estahuh

But yes to everything else you said.

"these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, Pg.103

-----------

"the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence."

Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, Pg.129

------------

"The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters of the battlefield, others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat."

Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Swtor didn't even exist when that guide was written. Swtor Jedi are made clear to basically be a better version of the Kotor Jedi. They are much larger, better equipped and better trained.

Carthage it appears I was wrong concerning Luke, in older sources your stance is correct, however more modern sources make it quite clear that Luke defeated Vader due to tapping into the Dark Side not due to skill alone.

However I question just how well this Luke iteration deals with someone with near top tier speed feats and excellent precognition. Not to mention full mastery of lightsaber combat and unarmed combat.

The only time he "tapped into the Darkside" was when he downed Vader and smashed through his arms and downed him. He wasn't using dark rage when he was forcing him on the defensive. Luke has some decent speed feats as well, so there probably isn't too much of an edge either way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Swtor padawans have more combat experience than veteran soldiers brah. estahuh

Gross.

I sensed KotOR Jedi lowballing. Who's asses do I need to whoop?

Originally posted by Selenial
Meetra's wound allows her to mirror and perfect her opponents style, she mastered all 7 forms of Lightsaber combat to levels that astounded council members.Meh I don't think that's true. Kreia was the one who was able to recognise the styles of others and respond with the perfect counter, due to shatterpoint. The Exile was just a very quick learner, because the bonds she established with others, considering that she shared a bond with Kreia she's merely taking Kreia's evaluations, gaining insta knowledge of those concepts, and turning it against her opponent.

However Kreia isn't here, so she lacks that advantage.Considering ROTJ Luke matched Vader's strength blow for blow, I'd hardly say she has a strength advantage. Luke also has very impressive speed feats also. And considering that he has been described as Vader's equal in lightsaber combat, and in their duel on the Death Star pushed Vader to his limits, I would also conclude that Luke has the advantage in skill (and probably overall Force strength for that matter.)

Altogether Luke has a strong chance of winning this.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Gross.

It's true though. excellent

Originally posted by Nephthys
Swtor didn't even exist when that guide was written. Swtor Jedi are made clear to basically be a better version of the Kotor Jedi. They are much larger, better equipped and better trained.

Doesn't matter. KotOR campaign guide is canon until otherwise directly contradicted. Which hasn't happened yet.

KotOR Jedi > SWTOR Jedi

It's contradicted by the fact that the Swtor Jedi are an improved version of the Kotor Jedi. And like I said, those quotes cannot match the fact that the Swtor Jedi are many times the size of the positively crippled, half-our-jedi-turned-to-the-darkside Kotor order, they have more advanced technology, lightsaber construction and are better equipped with actual battle armor and other gizmo's and they have improved their techniques and training through rediscovered teachings.

The Swtor order would annihilate the Kotor order and you'd pretty much have to be nuts to say otherwise.

Technically I could argue they are the same era so those quotes apply to them as well.

"My opinions," is so many less words to type, Neph. Save us all the trouble.

To be fair the statement isn't exactly absolute:

"Even more so than the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

The PT Order has already been recognised as the golden age of the Jedi, the KOTOR campaign guide is just claiming its goldener, so what can't SWTOR being goldener still?

Because the writers of KotOR and TOR are the same people, but they have said nothing to that effect?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
To be fair the statement isn't exactly absolute:

"Even more so than the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

The PT Order has already been recognised as the golden age of the Jedi, the KOTOR campaign guide is just claiming its goldener, so what can't SWTOR being goldener still?

Tbh that quote is also BS, considering it contradicted GL who said the prime of the Jedi was the PT era...so...that quote doesn't really hold anything.

Sourcebooks/Guides can have wrong information folks, they aren't infailable.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because the writers of KotOR and TOR are the same people, but they have said nothing to that effect?

Well they've said there's millions of Sith, one would expect millions of Jedi.

I guess though we'll roll with "that sourcebook has been updated", as per LeGenD's logic, since when I contacted authors who worked on SWTOR, they numbered the Sith in the thousands...

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Tbh that quote is also BS, considering it contradicting GL who said the prime of the Jedi was the PT era...so...that quote doesn't really hold anything.

I struggle to care what George says anymore, if I'm honest. He says he doesn't acknowledge the existence of the EU, so why should what he says be applied to it?

Originally posted by Selenial
Well they've said there's millions of Sith, one would expect millions of Jedi.

I guess though we'll roll with "that sourcebook has been updated", as per LeGenD's logic, since when I contacted authors who worked on SWTOR, they numbered the Sith in the thousands...
Quantity doesn't really reflect quality, tho.

Originally posted by Selenial
I struggle to care what George says anymore, if I'm honest. He says he doesn't acknowledge the existence of the EU, so why should what he says be applied to it?

Yeah he doesn't acknowledge is so...that's why he clearly pulled in EU stuff into the main canon.

But this isn't about what he said, it's about the canon levels. Which the Sourcebooks fall under C and anything as per GL would be G so...G > C...therefore the Sourcebook is inaccurate.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because the writers of KotOR and TOR are the same people, but they have said nothing to that effect? Meh, I don't know. That said it has been stated that the Jedi Order lost a lost of their accumulated knowledge and teaching as a result of the Sacking of Coruscant, and their training suffered as a result...

However they posit the KOTOR era's superiority on the basis that they have been fighting hordes of Mandalorians and Sith, but the SWTOR era has been doing that for thirty years, and have had 300 years of peace to build on knowledge and teaching.

It only makes logical sense that they would be better, and as I say the statement isn't absolute.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's contradicted by the fact that the Swtor Jedi are an improved version of the Kotor Jedi. And like I said, those quotes cannot match the fact that the Swtor Jedi are many times the size of the positively crippled, half-our-jedi-turned-to-the-darkside Kotor order, they have more advanced technology, lightsaber construction and are better equipped with actual battle armor and other gizmo's and they have improved their techniques and training through rediscovered teachings.

The Swtor order would annihilate the Kotor order and you'd pretty much have to be nuts to say otherwise.

Technically I could argue they are the same era so those quotes apply to them as well.

So you're arguing that your opinion > canon fact. Ok.

Edit: it's also referring to before the Sith War.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"My opinions," is so many less words to type, Neph. Save us all the trouble.

Originally posted by ares834
So you're arguing that your opinion > canon fact. Ok.

Suggest to me how the Kotor Jedi could possibly be better based on the information we know about both order's.

I'm not arguing my opinion. Bioware created Kotor and that sourcebook and then they also created the Swtor period and made numerous aspects of that times Jedi stronger than the Kotor era's. Furthermore, the whole frigging point of Kotor is that the Jedi are on the brink of ruin. They failed, they were split in half by Revan and then lost most of their remaining numbers in the war to death or further corruption. By Kotor 2 they were almost entirely wiped out. The Swtor Jedi are massive, united, in the midst of a renaissance and are beating a massive Sith Empire on the battlefield.

I know that it's popular to hate on the swtor era, but this is pretty inarguable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Suggest to me how the Kotor Jedi could possibly be better based on the information we know about both order's.

It's better because it's directly stated to be the best.

Also, like I said, it's referring to before the Sith War not after Revan divides the order again.

Originally posted by ares834
It's better because it's directly stated to be the best.

Also, like I said, it's referring to before the Sith War not after Revan divides the order again.

It isn't and you know that it isn't. Offer actual reasons please, because we all know the Swtor era would crush the Kotor one logically speaking.

You mean Exar Kun's war? That order was still much weaker than the Swtor order. Even outside of their massive numbers advantage, the swtor era is equipped with advanced battle-armor, superior shield generator tech and improved lightsaber designs. And they're so battle-hardened that even their padawans have more combat experience than the average veteran soldier AND they have more experience fighting Sith.

It is an actual reason though. It's the best damn reason in fact and is, frankly, inarguable unless you believe your opinion is more important than canon fact.

Also, Exar Kun's war is also referred to as the Sith War.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Such as?

I know everyone vouches for her haxing force powers. "10/10 BEST DRAIN, DRAIN OF THE YEAR!"

When in reality, it isn't impressive in the slightest, and there's no guarantee lesser characters couldn't replicate it.
I have never hyped Darth Traya to extreme levels and I have been among the critics who argued for a long time that she cannot just pwn everybody with her greatest powers. But credit where due, Traya's proficiency in the use of Force Drain powers is really impressive, proved by her demonstration against 3 Jedi Masters of note.

It shall be kept in mind that Force Drain powers are among the most difficult to master and utilize in combat situations. Even Darth Bane wasn't able to use Force Drain powers for combat purposes without drawing on the power of a nexus. And Darth Vader haven't demonstrated aptitude for these powers.

"Meetra" (I hate that name) was nerfed pretty hard and nothing she did in the book says she'd have a shot against Vader in pure sabers. That said, Luke was riding a dark side boost when he bested his father, so that wasn't really an indicator of his skills in a normal fight.

So in this battle I say Exile wins on sheer experience, unless Luke gets really pissed and taps into his rage buff.

Meetra wouldn't have a shot against Vader in pure sabers regardless.

She would based on her Kotor 2 persona.

In some sense, yes. On the other hand, KOTOR 2 is generally an upscaled version of the rest of the SW universe, but with the same hierarchy. That is, the ancient sith such as Tulak Hord are far greater than Avellone!Meetra, but in Avellone's world, the ancient sith are galaxy-shaping masterminds/deities. Case in point, Avellone has Vader and Sidious>Nihilus, so how he'd depict those two would be far different than the rest of their material. In the same way, Revan!Meetra is still far weaker than Hord, just on a much different scale. Avellone Meetra is also much weaker than Avellone!Revan, but again, on a different scale.

TL;DR, KOTOR 2 Exile is the same as Meetra, in all actuality. Vader slaughterfest tbh

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh I don't think that's true. Kreia was the one who was able to recognise the styles of others and respond with the perfect counter, due to shatterpoint. The Exile was just a very quick learner, because the bonds she established with others, considering that she shared a bond with Kreia she's merely taking Kreia's evaluations, gaining insta knowledge of those concepts, and turning it against her opponent.

However Kreia isn't here, so she lacks that advantage.Considering ROTJ Luke matched Vader's strength blow for blow, I'd hardly say she has a strength advantage. Luke also has very impressive speed feats also. And considering that he has been described as Vader's equal in lightsaber combat, and in their duel on the Death Star pushed Vader to his limits, I would also conclude that Luke has the advantage in skill (and probably overall Force strength for that matter.)

Altogether Luke has a strong chance of winning this.

She becomes highly adept at the Ataru lightsaber form by meeting Zez-Kai Ell





-------------

She becomes highly adept at the Shien lightsaber form through meeting Vrook:





She masters the Juyo form through meeting Master Kavar:





By mastering Form VII: Juyo we know she must be a master of multiple other lightsaber forms:

-

Anyway, as for this thread, Luke stomps.

Luke may well win but it's in no manner a stomp.

Nah it's not close.

Meetra Surik is better than almost every Jedi Vader has defeated, she is not some weakling like everybody is making out. She puts up a good but losing fight.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra Surik is better than almost every Jedi Vader has defeated, she is not some weakling like everybody is making out. She puts up a good but losing fight.

Never said she was a weakling. Just that she isn't a match for Luke.

Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, as for this thread, Luke stomps.

Riiiight. She gets stomped by ROTJ Luke but isn't a weakling?

Yep.

There is a leap in logic there, better yet instead of clinging to Carthage's sole lifeline which is the Vader duel, taking a look at opponents Luke has fought even after this is quite telling, the likes of Lumiya and more have all given Luke a red ass.

The idea that Surik isn't good enough to give Luke a good fight when plenty of lesser characters have is pretty ludicrous.

That "sole lifeline" is pretty much RotJ Luke's premier feat.

Which is great, but we also have a series of saber duels where Luke fails to 'stomp' as you say, his competition. There is no reason to assume he would do so against a better opponent than most of the ones he has fought.

And we also got him surpassing Vader. Considering how large a role emotional state plays in these duels I argue characters dueling at their best not their worst. It's why I'm not bringing up the Exile's abysmal showing against Nyriss.

I think its only sensible to suggest this would be a close duel, considering the Exile took on and defeated an entire academy of Sith and then defeated Darth Traya on possibly the strongest dark side nexus in galactic history...

Credit where credit is due.

Except she's nowhere near that powerful anymore, none of that was sabers only, and her wound is definitely healed by the time of the novel.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think its only sensible to suggest this would be a close duel, considering the Exile took on and defeated an entire academy of Sith and then defeated Darth Traya on possibly the strongest dark side nexus in galactic history...

Credit where credit is due.

But how do we know that she killed them by virtue of skill alone? How many of them did she beat together?

Also, I don't recall any official information about what she did in the Trayus Academy, and if we go by gameplay, it is possible to avoid most of those encounters via stealth. If I'm wrong, please post some quotes.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except she's nowhere near that powerful anymore, none of that was sabers only, and her wound is definitely healed by the time of the novel. Originally posted by carthage
This is KOTOR 2 version. Not that I agree with the idea that the Exile's powers all came from her wound.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
But how do we know that she killed them by virtue of skill alone? How many of them did she beat together?

Also, I don't recall any official information about what she did in the Trayus Academy, and if we go by gameplay, it is possible to avoid most of those encounters via stealth. If I'm wrong, please post some quotes.

It's stated that she killed a Legion of elite assassins... So.....

Should that be a surprise? Her wound allows her to feed on both the presence of those around her, and by all those she kills. Mega-amp is mega-amp.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not that I agree with the idea that the Exile's powers all came from her wound.
She was also drawing off a bond she had with her companions, all of which were Force Sensitive, and Kreia.

As to the rest, that was said in game, so it really doesn't matter what your opinion is.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She was also drawing off a bond she had with her companions, all of which were Force Sensitive, and Kreia.

As to the rest, that was said in game, so it really doesn't matter what your opinion is.

The bonds were two way though.

I really don't see how that matters. Kreia isn't getting an amp from the Exile.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I really don't see how that matters. Kreia isn't getting an amp from the Exile.

All of her party members were, they were in the Trayus academy being tortured and shit. Seeing as no other force user has ever resisted Malachor, and they're inferior to Surik, It's logical to assume what got them through it was her bond. Not to mention she weakened herself by going out of her way to save them.

Oh and Ant, seeing as they couldn't feed off Surik, and they were supposedly lesser versions of Surik, I don't see why she could feed off them.

Quote they couldn't feed on her? And them and Surik weren't the same.

Not sure why this bond thing is being brought up considering none of Suirk's companions are around here and she doesn't have a bond with Luke.

Let's just look at the actual stuff here please?

Also the term Legion can be vague, so while Suirk may have defeated an entire Legion of Sith Assassins...what is exactly that number? Take note that this is the remains of a leftover Empire and the Sith Trimuvirate was small as it is.

So let's look at things that can actually be noted, such as speed, strength, skill and so on.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote they couldn't feed on her? And them and Surik weren't the same.

That's your opinion, one that literally everyone in the game disagrees on, since they all say the Assassins learned their technique from Surik and malachor developed them in the same way.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She was also drawing off a bond she had with her companions, all of which were Force Sensitive, and Kreia.

As to the rest, that was said in game, so it really doesn't matter what your opinion is. I don't remember it being said in the game that the Exile was dependent on her bonds for power, or that once her wound closed, she would lose her power. And her Force bonds would likely have been nullified on Malachor, it also seems very unlikely that Kreia's bond with the Exile still existed post-betrayal.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't remember it being said in the game that the Exile was dependent on her bonds for power, or that once her wound closed, she would lose her power.

Well it was, but the game also says it was based on proximity.

But of course, any chance to lowball the exile by ignoring quotes is fine.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well it was, but the game also says it was based on proximity.

But of course, any chance to lowball the exile by ignoring quotes is fine. As far as I'm aware its said that she feeds of their strength, but that's different from being dependent on it.

i.e. that without her buddies, the Exile was lawls weak.

So anyway here....can we actually get into actual feats of speed, strength, skill and so on here? Ya know, stuff that is actually quantifiable? Enough of this bond nonsense.

Bond nonsense? Such heresies.

Originally posted by Selenial
All of her party members were, they were in the Trayus academy being tortured and shit. Seeing as no other force user has ever resisted Malachor, and they're inferior to Surik, It's logical to assume what got them through it was her bond. Not to mention she weakened herself by going out of her way to save them.

Only the Battle of Malachor V was a definite. The reason no one else resisted Malachor was because they were all tortured until they broke. Obviously there wasn't enough time for that.

Kreia was talking about a metaphorical weakness of being a Light Sider, not actually getting weaker.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
they were all tortured until they broke.
False.

Yes, how does that go against my point? Only Revan's Sith have been there. Besides, all places strong in the Dark Side slowly corrupt everything. It's not like it's an instant process.

I suppose you and Selenial also think the Exile is the only reason Nihilus didn't completely dominate all the Mandalorians on the Ravager.

Because it means that the Exile's companions did not have to be tortured to be corrupted. Its also made a big show of that Revan was able to resist its corruptive influence, so its obvious that you don't need to be tortured to succumb, mere exposure is enough.

This is all I'm really contending with, whether the Exile helped them overcome the influence or not is speculation, but it is possible.

Pre-Battle of Malachor and Post-Battle of Malachor corruption seems to work differently, tbh.

I'd assume post-battle of Malachor it would merely be more potent...

Again, this matters? The fight isn't taking place on Malachor, so there's none of this happening.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd assume post-battle of Malachor it would merely be more potent...
Logically yes, but the feats show otherwise strangely enough.

I think that only makes Sel's theory necessary.

I was just chiming in - not contributing to one party of the debate. If its in favor of the Exile's wiillpower on Malachor, it's wrong though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I was just chiming in - not contributing to one party of the debate. If its in favor of the Exile's wiillpower on Malachor, it's wrong though. Lol and:
Originally posted by Selenial
All of her party members were, they were in the Trayus academy being tortured and shit. Seeing as no other force user has ever resisted Malachor, and they're inferior to Surik, It's logical to assume what got them through it was her bond. Not to mention she weakened herself by going out of her way to save them.Its the only logical explanation I can see.

Post-Destruction Malachor didn't corrupt when you stepped on the surface, that was only Pre-Destruction.
Surik's wound in the Force should allow her to negate the effects of Malachor - which is also a wound in the Force.
She managed to resist Nihilus' drain, and also showed no visible issues against his wound presence corruption attacks.

Yeah but I'm talking about her companions, there is no reason why they should not have been corrupted, the Kreia specifically states in present tense that it "corrupts all who walk on its surface".

And that makes it fact? I guess we are now going to say Revan is power incarnated into a single man? Post-Destruction Malachor was far less intense than Pre-Destruction in terms of corruptible dark side energies. The underground Sith city that Revan found and learned his untold wealth of knowledge from was destroyed during the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars. Nearly all those energies within all that knowledge would have been lost. Malachor converted into a less powerful dark side nexus (yet still very powerful), and a wound in the Force (feeling all those dead weighing down on you - etc etc). Revan trained his Assassins to take new recruits to Malachor to torture and break them (Malachor made the process merely easier - I guess.) Once broken, the effects of Malachor's wound in stuff would then play in, it seems. Before the destruction though, the planet basically mind-****ed anyone that went on its surface.

Again none of this shit matters, this is a fight between two lightsiders on a sail barge on Tatooine.

Why you guys keep bringing up Malachor and it's corrupting effects and all other shit not related to the fight, is turning this more into off topic.

It's not helping that it's just the same things being repeated over and over again.

So back to the fight at hand yes?

I feel that Luke takes this, just sheer sabers he has shown as being stronger and faster than Surik. The skill shouldn't be all that off considering both have instantaneous learning curves.

Who cares if it's off topic? This is KMC bro.


Boobs.

Nipples.

Because it's about a fight? Not an off topic discussion.

Originally posted by ILS
Nipples.
Honkers.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Honkers. Titties.

Originally posted by ILS
Titties.
Humpty Dumplings.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And that makes it fact? I guess we are now going to say Revan is power incarnated into a single man? Post-Destruction Malachor was far less intense than Pre-Destruction in terms of corruptible dark side energies. The underground Sith city that Revan found and learned his untold wealth of knowledge from was destroyed during the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars. Nearly all those energies within all that knowledge would have been lost. Malachor converted into a less powerful dark side nexus (yet still very powerful), and a wound in the Force (feeling all those dead weighing down on you - etc etc). Revan trained his Assassins to take new recruits to Malachor to torture and break them (Malachor made the process merely easier - I guess.) Once broken, the effects of Malachor's wound in stuff would then play in, it seems. Before the destruction though, the planet basically mind-****ed anyone that went on its surface. It suggests that Malachor V did not get weaker, as your suggesting. Yes its a character statement, but in trumps your opinion tbh.

I don't remember any mention of a Sith city... but OK. The Academy remained intact however, and that's the real focal point of its dark energies, and the presumably the repository for the Sith artifacts and the like.

But more importantly the suggestion is that Malachor became even more potent post-Malachor by feeding on the pain and terror caused by the MSG. Heck lets not forget that post-Malachor Kreia came to the planet and was corrupted without an external forces influencing her.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Who cares if it's off topic? This is KMC bro.Tbh

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It suggests that Malachor V did not get weaker, as your suggesting. Yes its a character statement, but in trumps your opinion tbh.

Is really ironic when followed by:

Your opinion. Kreia also wasn't corrupted by Malachor. Besides, she was there during the war if you by the all but confirmed Arren Kae story.

Which is supported rather than contradicted by Kreia's words. I don't see your point.

None of that, "Everything is concentrated in the Academy," and "All of these deaths made Malachor a super nexus," is said by Kreia. Only the emptiness is spoken of getting more powerful.

My apologies, Sion actually said some of that:
And what Kreia says is intepretable:
If we approach this without the contexts of the wound, it would be seemingly stating that the pain and suffering (read negative emotions) fed the dark side presence on the planet. However given the existence of the wound in the Force, it could be that too.

But does it really matter? Whatever it fed it made being on Malachor all the less bearable and all the more corrupting and consuming. To suggest that after the atrocity of Malachor V the planet grew weaker is... well it's nonsense.

Yes, it does matter, because while a nexus may be beneficial, a Wound in the Force is not. A Force wound isn't corrupting, so while I'm sure it became a lot more painful to stand on the surface of a giant rock that slowly kills you, I don't see where it states it's capabilities to twist the mind were strengthened. It's never said anywhere. Only that it added in torture, which Revan used to turn Jedi.

"It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."

Kreia is either referring to the dark side nexus or the wound. Either way it corrupts, and was made more potent by the effects of the MSG.

And remember Force wounds cause echoes of the pain and suffering that happened there, negative emotions that as you might expect, can prove overwhelming. That would have certainly made it more difficult to resist the dark side nexus itself.

Still, we haven't proven that the nexus got weaker.