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Experience: The Jedi Knights of the Knights of the Old Republic are more experienced in intense and melee/lightsaber combat based off of all available sources. The Jedi being born and fighting in the Mandalorian Wars would have known, lived, and trained in war their entire life. From the origins of the original battles in the Beast Wars to the final battle over Rakata Prime, the galaxy has been consumed in approximately 45 years of continuous and brutal warfare. They were raised in this environment, and obviously would train under the Jedi to combat the Krath, Brotherhood, Terentatek, Mandalorians, or Sith respectively. Compare this kind of extensive training to the average Jedi Knight leading into the Clone Wars who never experienced such training since no one anticipated such a large scale war to take place. Hell, besides combat sparring with their other Jedi Knights which are not accurate representations of a individuals power, the Jedi haven't fought a dueling force like the Sith for about 1,000 years. Compare 45 years of continuous warfare to 3 years of continuous warfare and you will see the Jedi of Revan's era utterly outcasses that of Mace Windu's (9x more warfare experience possible). Canonical source and extra information is supplied in the quote below:

"From one end of the Knights of the Old Republic era to the other, the galaxy is constantly torn by wars, and times of peace seem more rare then times of conflict. Most of the heroes in a Knights of the Old Republic campaign will have experienced nearly a lifetime of war, and have likely felt the rippling effect of massive battles and horrific devastation. As such, the face of the galaxy is much different than in the classic era; the advent of the Clone Wars was a major event in the galaxy, while the Republic has already been weathered two major major wars by the time the Jedi Civil War begins. More then just affecting the heroes, the constant warfare plaguing the galaxy has changed the face of the planets and their populations irrecoverably. Most planets have militias and defense forces that are significantly more powerful than they would have in peacetime." --KotORCG

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Skill: Lightsaber prowess has a lot to do with experience and training. Dueling is a prime component of the galaxy's culture as of Revan's time, unlike the widespread pacifists seen in the Prequel Trilogy. The excess amount of individuals training and perfecting their skills with a blade requires the Jedi Order to do the same (but only better) in order to continue to being the dominant force of peace and protection in the known galaxy. This continual practice is interwoven with the frequent encounters with Dark Jedi and Mandalorians. In fact, sourcebooks state that a "large number of Jedi" during Revan's time "become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat." This mastery with a blade is nearly impossible to achieve for the average Jedi Knight merely fighting battledroids as seen in the Clone Wars. Let's face it, fighting Mandalorians and Sith are going to make you a better warrior a lot quicker then a couple battledroids. I have yet to see a quote that considers an average Jedi Knight of the Prequel Trilogy highly skilled in any form of combat. Masters like Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu are special for a reason. Below are additional sources that support my statements above, along with extra material added for some toppings:

"The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat." --KotORCG

"Throughout the history of the galaxy, dueling has seen many degrees of acceptability, militarily, legally, and socially. Some cultures or subcultures regard dueling as an honorable and civilized method of settling disputes, but others see dueling as barbaric. During the Knights of the Old Republic era, melee combat has resurged, forcing many to study dueling as a means to survive on the battlefield. In fact, dueling is allowed on more civilized worlds then gladiatorial combat, given the higher cultural status dueling enjoys. The melee duelist specializes in fighting a single opponent. The melee duelist selects a primary weapon of choice, studying and practicing maneuvers, feints, and tricks to perfection. Competitive duelists train with several types weapons because they may not know ahead of time which types of weapons will be used in a duel. Battlefield duelists expand their abilities to take on small groups because they cannot depend on the luxury of fighting a single opponent in the middle of a skirmish." --KotORCG

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Power: This part mostly focuses on the overall hype of the Order's power and strength. I understand Lucas has labeled the Prequel Trilogy as the "prime of the Jedi," but people must understand other facts alongside that. Note how George Lucas doesn't consider the EU canonical, and therefore would not take it into account when doing such a quote. If you listen to the context of the quote, he is specifically comparing the Prequel Trilogy to that of the Original Trilogy. He is not however comparing the Prequel Trilogy to all of the different eras of Star Wars that had powerful Jedi in them. Eras like Knights of the Old Republic or The Old Republic have been entirely war based, it is basically impossible for the Prequel Trilogy to be up with them as fast as Episode 1 where the only notable wars the Jedi have fought in before then was the Stark Hyperspace War. And honestly, that quote is hilariously outdated (I believe said in 1998). In the time since then, entire eras of Jedi have been formed, all of which are fighting far more brutal and skilled opponents then that of battledroids: KotOR, TOR, LotF, and Legacy. As anticipated, new sources have seemingly retconed those ideas. Multiple sources state that the Jedi Order during Revan's time was the combat prime of the Jedi, which also makes the most logical sense given all the opponents they are constantly fighting. Suggesting the normal Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy being more powerful is simply illogical. Revan's era needs superior Jedi in order to fight a superior fighting force. Below are merely a handful of quotes praising the Knights of the Old Republic era:

"During this time, the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence... Knights of the Old Republic campaigns take place against a backdrop that captures everything that makes Star Wars unique. Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime. They do battle with the evil Sith, and defend the galaxy against the Mandalorian hordes." --KotORCG

The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat." --KotORCG

"Long before the Galactic Civil War, an epic drama begins. Engage in this saga set in the Golden Age of the Republic - over 4,000 years before the first Star Wars film, when both Jedi and Sith number in the thousands. With the Galaxy reeling from a recent conflict with the Dark Lords, the ongoing battle between the Jedi and the Sith rages on. Your actions determine the outcome of this colossal galactic war - and your destiny as a Jedi." --KotOR

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Summary: Greater experience, skill, and power of the Knights of the Old Republic Jedi grants them an overall edge over the Prequel Trilogy Jedi. The Jedi of the Clone Wars simply don't have what is needed to go up against warriors who's life revolves around warfare. I don't see how it is possible an average Jedi Knight of the Clone Wars can come out on top more then vice-versa with these factors. Training to combat battledroids is not comparable to Dark Jedi and Mandalorians. Thank you for reading - May the Force be with you.

Well yeah.

Yet Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were able to hold their own and fight against Darth Maul, a Sith which haven't been around for a long time.

I don't see how war experience matters, when Jedi of the PT were able to still fight Sith even without constantly doing so. Yeah the Kotor Jedi have war experience, which is all fine and dandy, but you're saying the PT Jedi can't contend just because they haven't fought against other Sith.

More to that even the PT Jedi were slaughtering Mandos easy as of when a band of Jedi encountered Jango Fett and his Mandos. All of them but him died during that.

So again...I don't see how there's much a difference when the PT Jedi were shown as being able to fight Sith and Mandos. Sure the Kotor Jedi have more war experience, but that's to be expected.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yet Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were able to hold their own and fight against Darth Maul, a Sith which haven't been around for a long time.

I don't see how war experience matters, when Jedi of the PT were able to still fight Sith even without constantly doing so. Yeah the Kotor Jedi have war experience, which is all fine and dandy, but you're saying the PT Jedi can't contend just because they haven't fought against other Sith.

More to that even the PT Jedi were slaughtering Mandos easy as of when a band of Jedi encountered Jango Fett and his Mandos. All of them but him died during that.

So again...I don't see how there's much a difference when the PT Jedi were shown as being able to fight Sith and Mandos. Sure the Kotor Jedi have more war experience, but that's to be expected.

I'd have no problem with the idea, if it weren't for the fact that the KOTOR high tiers would get the shit stomped out of them by the PT high tiers. It'd be odd to have that much disparity if KOTOR was better on an average basis, tbh.

Also the PT Jedi did go through the Jedi trials which of the skill part, would include either outlasting the Jedi Battlemaster that could span hours in a dueling session, fighting multiple opponents and even a training holoprojection of fighting against past Sith Lords, such as Darth Ruin, Lord Kaan or any other.

So let's not go there that the PT Jedi don't have experience in fighting against Sith Lords or having extensive lightsaber fighting. They maybe just training, but even still it helps prepare them for the actual thing.

They are also trained through all the various lightsaber forms, perhaps not mastering but they know the techniques, but Padawans are expected to master at least one form. You also have the Guardians practicing every single day training when they aren't off doing missions or whatever.

Among other things.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'd have no problem with the idea, if it weren't for the fact that the KOTOR high tiers would get the shit stomped out of them by the PT high tiers. It'd be odd to have that much disparity if KOTOR was better on an average basis, tbh.

Lol, the bold part is really funny.

Mace Windu vs Vrook Lamar tbh.

Lamar wasn't considered to be the top tier.

I agree with this thread, the top tiers from this era include:

Exar Kun
Revan
Ulic Qel-Droma
Meetra Surik
Kreia
Thon
Malak
Vandar
Kavar
Nomi
Odan-Urr
Arca Jeth
Vodo Siosk-Baas
Cay Qel-Droma

The PT era is definitely not 'shitstomping' them.

Poor Lucien Draay gets no appreciation, it seems.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yet Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were able to hold their own and fight against Darth Maul, a Sith which haven't been around for a long time.

I don't see how war experience matters, when Jedi of the PT were able to still fight Sith even without constantly doing so. Yeah the Kotor Jedi have war experience, which is all fine and dandy, but you're saying the PT Jedi can't contend just because they haven't fought against other Sith.

I think war experience matters, but isn't absolute, because even outside war there's combat missions and even smaller war-esque conflicts (like the Yinchorri uprising), and there's still training in the factor. The main difference seems to be, while a peacetime order will still have strong Jedi, there's a tendency for there to be fewer strong ones as the most badass ones will go around and handle all the worst conflicts (we're told Eeth Koth and Sharad Hett did this, you can be sure Windu did too, etc.), causing most Jedi to get less combat experience.

Early PT, due to a lack of war, there were a lot of weaker Jedi. When the Clone War happened, things tightened up, and some of the weaker ones died, others got stronger, and many of the stronger Jedi polished their skills significantly. The Jedi Council by the end of the Clone Wars would roll over the one from ten years before, even though pre-war Windu would still beat almost everyone on the late-war Council, and some of the already-experienced figures like Yoda and Plo Koon and Koth didn't change in level at all.


Or to put it another way, 'it's easier to find weak Jedi in peacetime, but as long as the training and knowledge of the force is good, you'll almost always be able to find strong Jedi too.'

Take ten random Jedi from each era, *especially* pre/early CW, against each other, and I'd bet on the KotoR. End of CW, then it's much more of a wash. And the PT order's *size* and number of trained people gave it a very deep talent pool, so when they got their experience, an impressive number rose fairly high.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Poor Lucien Draay gets no appreciation, it seems.


Yea, he was badass


Originally posted by AncientPower
I agree with this thread, the top tiers from this era include:


I do wanna mention that that's from, like, a 60 year span or so.

Traya was likely alive during the time of Exar Kun, but she might've been, oh, 18 or so when he hit.

Revan didn't exist during Ulic's lifespan.

So, it's not *quite* fair to mash those all up. The order underwent significant reforms as a result of the Exar Kun war, and due to time had almost everyone replaced with successors.

The version of the Jedi that Ant is using for comparison is itself stretching from the Great Sith War to the Dark Wars, as that is what the sources he uses here state. Thus all characters throughout that half century period are valid characters for discussion.

I'd say the top-tier Jedi of the PT Jedi Order would definitely outmatch the top tiers of the KotOR era Jedi, but the average KotOR Jedi is probably better than the average PT Jedi.

Exar Kun, Kreia, Surik, Droma and Revan are all very strong so I would not unanimously claim their inferiority.

Then we have very strong Jedi Masters in Odan-Urr, Arca Jeth, Thon, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Vandar, Draay, Atris, Nomi, Vima and so on.

Even those below them are rather impressive like Masters Kavar, Zez-Kai Ell, Zhar, Dorak and the rest.

The ranks of Jedi during the closing century of the Old Sith Wars had a very deep roster of strong Jedi.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun, Kreia, Surik, Droma and Revan are all very strong so I would not unanimously claim their inferiority.

Then we have very strong Jedi Masters in Odan-Urr, Arca Jeth, Thon, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Vandar, Draay, Atris, Nomi, Vima and so on.

Even those below them are rather impressive like Masters Kavar, Zez-Kai Ell, Zhar, Dorak and the rest.

The ranks of Jedi during the closing century of the Old Sith Wars had a very deep roster of strong Jedi.

Those beings mostly reached their prime after experiencing the dark side. As Jedi, they weren't as impressive as Dooku (as a Jedi), Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, etc. And of course, there's Yoda.

For your second list, they're impressive, but not as good as the likes of Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, etc. Then the likes of Ki-Adi Mundi, Qui-Gon Jinn and Quinlan Vos are still better than them by some margin (saber-wise, at least0.

I think novel Revan is nearly Yoda tier and that they trade inferior lightsaber skill with better over-all Force showings.

I think the OSW Jedi definitely have a Force advantage against the list you mentioned but again are likely inferior somewhat in lightsaber combat.

This I can't agree with, they are still all to master duelists with impressive Force feats to back it up with. Consider that Master Kavar was a top master duelist but is not considered as good as Vrook Lamar, Zez-Kai Ell, Atris or Lonna Vash. He is on the other hand stated to be a very potent Jedi Master with the Force.

1. Revan doesn't have better Force showings than Yoda, and he'd be defeated quite decisively in sabers.

2. Not really, when it comes to sabers. Force is a mixed bag.

3. Not sure about Kavar not being on par with Lonna Vash, but otherwise, despite his accolades and form mastery, his feats are far and few between to land him above the Jedi I mentioned.

I'm aware of all those Jedi's feats/accolades, by the way. They're powerful in their own right but haven't shown enough for me to place them above the Jedi I mentioned.

1.Revan is nearly his equal in Force prowess, between the rest we have a complicated story.

2.They are mostly master duelists themselves, especially the likes of Vodo. In the Force the OSW Jedi take it by a fair margin.

3.Yet they have greater experience, have statements calling them master duelists/Force users and are themselves Jedi Masters, among the greatest in the Jedi Order.

I think it's a far closer affair than many do.

1. In mastery, yes. In sheer power, not so much. He's close, but not necessarily a near-equal.

2. I know. "Master duelist" is quite a commn accolade, though.

3. So what? As if the Jedi I mentioned lack such accolades? More importantly, they have a number of concrete feats to support their positioning, whereas most KotOR Jedi rely on a combination of accolades/hype and what limited (though usually impressive) feats they have to infer a position.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The version of the Jedi that Ant is using for comparison is itself stretching from the Great Sith War to the Dark Wars, as that is what the sources he uses here state. Thus all characters throughout that half century period are valid characters for discussion.


Sure, but I think when comparing orders, I think it's more worth noting how much they bring to bear at any one time. Lumping a lot together obscures the data.

I mean, the same time frame from TPM would run all the way to Luke.



Which is not to say I disagree with you on the matter of them having a strong roster- I think they do, I just think it's two rosters to be counted separately. With the Exar War roster being somewhat the stronger of the two (due in part to the latter timeframe having lost a lot due to said wars).




I agree, there was much more focus on esoteric force powers over saber skills. As most exemplified by Arca Jeth, who eschewed the use of saber even.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Experience: The Jedi Knights of the Knights of the Old Republic are more experienced in intense and melee/lightsaber combat based off of all available sources. The Jedi being born and fighting in the Mandalorian Wars would have known, lived, and trained in war their entire life. That's not really true though, as your forgetting that the Jedi Order did not officially participate in the Mandalorian Wars at all, they abstained, the Revanchists were a splinter group. So any Jedi trained within that period would have done so under non-combat conditions.

In fact a great deal of Jedi would have experienced nigh 40 years of non-combat since the Great Sith War, which itself lasted only a year. The last major conflict since that being the Great Hyperspace War, which occurred 1,000 years ago. So in reality the Jedi Order proper has only a year or so of combat experience, which is probably why they were promptly slaughtered during the ensuing Jedi Civil War.

So if we are talking Jedi Orders, as in official members, I expect PT Jedi Order > KOTOR Jedi Order, the Revanchists are a different story.

Swtor definitely has the biggest edge in terms of experience in my estimation. According to Swtore even Jedi Padawans "have already spent more time in battle than the average veteran soldier" by the time they take the trials.

You can imagine the kind of battle experience Jedi like Orgus Din, who's the most veteran Jedi in the Order, have.

Plus they have all that experience against an actual Sith Empire, Mandalorians and more in protracted, open warfare and spent 15 years specifically training to beat the Empire.

The Brotherhood era might have better experience, but I dunno about that. Some of the BoD were kind of lame.

Experience is usually only going to make a noticeable difference if you're up against an inexperienced fighter. Otherwise, there's plenty of examples of more experienced characters losing to less experienced characters.

Logically speaking, it should be PT Jedi>SWTOR Jedi>KOTOR Jedi

Originally posted by SunRazer
Experience is usually only going to make a noticeable difference if you're up against an inexperienced fighter. Otherwise, there's plenty of examples of more experienced characters losing to less experienced characters.

I disagree. Experience directly ties into someone's combat skill. You wouldn't say that skill is only useful against unskilled opponents. You have a ton of experience dueling someone to the death then you have a lot of extra knowledge about fighting than someone greener. Practice makes perfect, after all.

You know better how to move, when to wait, when's the best chance to catch your breath, what the forms look like in a real fight and what to expect, what's it's like fighting someone with the Force. Your reflexes are sharper, you know better how to react etc etc.

Even in the PT, I'd say that Anakin benefited from surviving so many fights with Dooku. Come RotS he knew the guys fighting style, how he used the Force and had a better grasp of how to beat him. That's the concept, a Jedi in the Swtor period would have the same kind of experience against lots of Sith.

Experience is a resource just like skill and power and people with more of it are better. Put two people with equal skill and power in a ring, but one is more experienced, that guys gonna walk away more than not.

Originally posted by Sinious
Logically speaking, it should be PT Jedi>SWTOR Jedi>KOTOR Jedi

Is that really logical, or just going off of Lucas' quote?

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Brotherhood era might have better experience, but I dunno about that. Some of the BoD were kind of lame. Meh, the New Sith Wars and the Ruusan Campaign really drove them into the ground, not only were they sending half trained children into battle, but they were in a Dark Age regarding technology.

Problem is, especially for Jedi, there is a fine line between experience and too much experience. Endless conflict is only going to whittle down the Order's numbers, and leave less and less experienced and talented teachers to train the next generation, there is also the dark side to consider, Jedi get there power from peace and serenity, so constant conflict would literally whittle down their connection to the Force.

How much this would apply to the SWTOR era and the Revanites I cannot say.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, the New Sith Wars and the Ruusan Campaign really drove them into the ground, not only were they sending half trained children into battle, but they were in a Dark Age regarding technology.

Problem is, especially for Jedi, there is a fine line between experience and too much experience. Endless conflict is only going to whittle down the Order's numbers, and leave less and less experienced and talented teachers to train the next generation, there is also the dark side to consider, Jedi get there power from peace and serenity, so constant conflict would literally whittle down their connection to the Force.

How much this would apply to the SWTOR era and the Revanites I cannot say.



Looking at the comic, some of those "sith" were just using ****ing spears. And yeah the Jedi were sending in children, which is terrible in so many ways.

I don't think that was an issue for the Swtor Jedi. They did have a 15 year period of peace to strengthen their resolve and deepen their connection to the Force in preparation for the inevitable conflict. I can't recall anything in the game pointing to the Jedi weakening or anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Is that really logical, or just going off of Lucas' quote?

First of all, do you agree with SWTOR Jedi > Kotor Jedi?

About PT>SWTOR, I'm not sure tbh. It does make sense to think it was Jedi's golden age. They had 1000 years of prosperity and peace just like SWTOR Jedi did for 300 years. The TOR force users have the advantage of wearing armor and being more combat oriented overall but skill and connection to the force wise, I'm not sure why PT wouldn't top any other era.

And of course as mentioned above, PT top dudes are better than KOTOR's and SWTOR's top dudes.

Originally posted by Sinious
First of all, do you agree with SWTOR Jedi > Kotor Jedi?

About PT>SWTOR, I'm not sure tbh. It does make sense to think it was Jedi's golden age. They had 1000 years of prosperity and peace just like SWTOR Jedi did for 300 years. The TOR force users have the advantage of wearing armor and being more combat oriented overall but skill and connection to the force wise, I'm not sure why PT wouldn't top any other era.

And of course as mentioned above, PT top dudes are better than KOTOR's and SWTOR's top dudes.

Hell yeah.

I'd say the PT had 1000 years of stagnation, isolating themselves from the galaxy, getting mired in politics and diplomacy and resting on their laurels. Personally I think that was pretty much the WHOLE point of the PT. They'd phased out Makashi because of the lack of lightsaber wielding foes and the majority of the order used Soresu, Niman or bog standard Shii-Cho. Swtor (I think) knew about the Sith still being out there and used that 300 years preparing or at least were very militarized and strong. Plus the PT had the Sith messing with the Force and tipping it in their favor, and dampening the Jedi's sight.

I'd say that's only because the PT is the village two-wheeled device of the mythos. They have ridiculously more exposure fleshing out the skills of minor characters like Plo Koon etc.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Problem is, especially for Jedi, there is a fine line between experience and too much experience. Endless conflict is only going to whittle down the Order's numbers, and leave less and less experienced and talented teachers to train the next generation, there is also the dark side to consider, Jedi get there power from peace and serenity, so constant conflict would literally whittle down their connection to the Force.


Good point.


Part of why the PT is in good shape is simply, Yoda. They've had a top expert at the force doing their training for centuries.

Even a human or similar species in top form, one just as insightful in the force as Yoda, heck even more-so, only has a few decades to pass that knowledge on, before they must hand that knowledge off to a successor who while likely skilled, still is likely a bit behind and has to spend some time catching up.

The PT Jedi, for their flaws, did have centuries for Yoda's teachings to be institutionalized, with less interruption than even eras of peace normally bring.

Originally posted by Sinious
Logically speaking, it should be PT Jedi>SWTOR Jedi>KOTOR Jedi

Curious, where would you put Legacy Jedi?


And I think there's consensus that Brotherhood of Darkness is at the bottom. Hm, and also down fairly low is Je'daii, simply because they're so new at things and have so relatively few members.

Yoda isn't the only.... whatever he is Jedi in history.

Originally posted by Sinious
First of all, do you agree with SWTOR Jedi > Kotor Jedi?

About PT>SWTOR, I'm not sure tbh. It does make sense to think it was Jedi's golden age. They had 1000 years of prosperity and peace just like SWTOR Jedi did for 300 years. The TOR force users have the advantage of wearing armor and being more combat oriented overall but skill and connection to the force wise, I'm not sure why PT wouldn't top any other era.

And of course as mentioned above, PT top dudes are better than KOTOR's and SWTOR's top dudes. I think they'd be better at different things. I think there are some definite merits to having as you say more than 1,000 years of peace to really refine and hone not only styles and techniques, but teaching methods as well. There is really no excused for a combat-orientated PT Jedi Master to know the ins and outs of their style, to have mastered all the techniques to the highest levels. So they are going to produce very refined, high level elegant duellists.

On the other hand SWTOR Jedi training is probably going to be a bit more rushed, more focused on teaching them the basics and getting them on the front lines. That said they have a mountain of experience, and that comes with effectiveness, they know how to kill, to get the job done without the fancy feints and flourishes.

On the other hand a PT Jedi will likely be more defensively orientated, and focused on disarming and neutralising opponents rather than quickly dispatching them. They'd be a lot less strength orientated as well, whereas SWTOR Jedi with that heavy armor and combat experience will be much stronger and have a higher pain threshold.

Altogether I'd guess that the SWTOR Jedi Order is going to produce a lot of simple but brutally effective and strength orientated duelists, who can take hits and deliver quick kills. People like Ven Zallow and Aryn Leener. Compare them to someone like Skywalker, a Djem So duellist but a lot more twirly twirly, more refined, but packs less punch.

I'm not sure who would win in such a confrontation, the PT Jedi may merely be overwhelmed by the brutal and powerful effectiveness of their opponent, but they might be able to exploit the flaws in a less refined style, and outmaneuver them with higher level techniques, and superior knowledge of the form.

Not sure I'd agree with your assessment. The PT Jedi were sending out children like Ahsoka on to the frontlines and even as generals. That doesn't suggest they were taking their time more than Swtor, who never did that kind of thing to my knowledge.

If anything I'd say the suddenness and surprise of the Clone Wars would cause the Jedi to scramble and rush things, vs the 15 year period of build up and preparation the Swtor Jedi got after the Treaty of Coruscant.

Also I thought Zallow used Ataru.

Meh fair point, but considering the Clone Wars only lasted 2-3 years, I doubt it would have had much of an impact. And really I think its only fair we deal with the prime/current generation i.e. minus the Younglings and Padawans in training, the next generation.

That said I would draw different conclusions for different SWTOR periods, we are talking a 40 year timespan here.

Taking the PT Jedi at the end of the Clone Wars, just prior to the GGW I'd give it to the SWTOR era, for as you said they've had a long period of peace but preparatory peace for the next Sith encounter. Mid-war I'd say they are roughly equal, for reasons stated. But only in effectiveness, not skill, I'd give that to the PT Jedi. At the end of the Cold War I'd probably give it to the SWTOR Jedi, and they've had a 10 year period of peace to build on their skills and experience.

Altogether I supposed I'd give it to the SWTOR Jedi, but I don't think the PT Jedi are that far behind.

KOTOR Jedi are right at the bottom though.

P.S. Don't know what Zallow used but Ataru is an offensive and often strength orientated style. He seems the Qui-Gon type.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I thought Zallow used Ataru.

He did.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
P.S. Don't know what Zallow used but Ataru is an offensive and often strength orientated style. He seems the Qui-Gon type.

Not quite.

Qui-Gon used a customised variant of Ataru that addressed many of its shortcomings and was overall a far more effective fighting style. Zallow used textbook Ataru, lacking any kind of refinement or personalisation. That was a big contributing factor to his defeat.

EvanNova95 made a very good point about this. He noted that while the KOTOR-SWTOR era Jedi had more overall combat experience, one major drawback to this was that the unforgiving nature of battlefield engagements meant they really didn't have time or place to experiment with their fighting techniques. They had to adapt a "stick to what works" mentality.

Against opponents like Qui-Gon, who have had time and opportunity to experiment, innovate and refine their skills and techniques, its very likely that many KOTOR-SWTOR Jedi by comparison would be very limited and predictable in their fighting skills.

Interesting, and good point I would agree with that.

However I was more talking about how Zallow's Ataru is very much focused on strength over speed and agility, much like Qui-Gon's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hell yeah.

I'd say the PT had 1000 years of stagnation, isolating themselves from the galaxy, getting mired in politics and diplomacy and resting on their laurels. Personally I think that was pretty much the WHOLE point of the PT. They'd phased out Makashi because of the lack of lightsaber wielding foes and the majority of the order used Soresu, Niman or bog standard Shii-Cho. Swtor (I think) knew about the Sith still being out there and used that 300 years preparing or at least were very militarized and strong. Plus the PT had the Sith messing with the Force and tipping it in their favor, and dampening the Jedi's sight.

I'd say that's only because the PT is the village two-wheeled device of the mythos. They have ridiculously more exposure fleshing out the skills of minor characters like Plo Koon etc.

Why do you think SWTOR Jedi knew about the hidden sith? This is a matter I've been meaning to explore.

But anyway, I never said PT is better in every way but has the upper hand in some areas. Again, no doubt SWTOR Jedi are more battle-oriented, especially against other saber wielders/force users. However, they have the advantage of advancing in prosperity and gaining experience during the clone wars. And yes, they were more comfortable but the Jedi are not like the Sith. A thousand years of chilling wouldn't affect them as bad as it would affect the Sith. In short, I think PT has the upper hand in skill/technique and having a greater connection with the force where SWTOR has the upper hand in strength and power.

Nah, SWTOR is like the climax of TOR and PT is the climax era of the entire EU and its fitting to have the best of the best in that era imo.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think they'd be better at different things. I think there are some definite merits to having as you say more than 1,000 years of peace to really refine and hone not only styles and techniques, but teaching methods as well. There is really no excused for a combat-orientated PT Jedi Master to know the ins and outs of their style, to have mastered all the techniques to the highest levels. So they are going to produce very refined, high level elegant duellists.

On the other hand SWTOR Jedi training is probably going to be a bit more rushed, more focused on teaching them the basics and getting them on the front lines. That said they have a mountain of experience, and that comes with effectiveness, they know how to kill, to get the job done without the fancy feints and flourishes.

On the other hand a PT Jedi will likely be more defensively orientated, and focused on disarming and neutralising opponents rather than quickly dispatching them. They'd be a lot less strength orientated as well, whereas SWTOR Jedi with that heavy armor and combat experience will be much stronger and have a higher pain threshold.

Altogether I'd guess that the SWTOR Jedi Order is going to produce a lot of simple but brutally effective and strength orientated duelists, who can take hits and deliver quick kills. People like Ven Zallow and Aryn Leener. Compare them to someone like Skywalker, a Djem So duellist but a lot more twirly twirly, more refined, but packs less punch.

I'm not sure who would win in such a confrontation, the PT Jedi may merely be overwhelmed by the brutal and powerful effectiveness of their opponent, but they might be able to exploit the flaws in a less refined style, and outmaneuver them with higher level techniques, and superior knowledge of the form.

I more or less agree with most of the stuff you said here.

Who do you think has the upper hand in usage of the force?

Originally posted by Q99

Curious, where would you put Legacy Jedi?

They're a bit weird tbh. Their top players are very impressive but I think they lack the cultural discipline of prior eras mostly due to the damage the order received with O66.

Originally posted by Sinious
I more or less agree with most of the stuff you said here.

Who do you think has the upper hand in usage of the force? In terms of the Force am I unsure. On one hand peace lends itself very much to the Consular side of things, lots of time to meditate on the Force, achieve peace and serenity, strengthen their connection etc. and I don't think combat experience would give much of an improvement. A Force push is a Force push, irrespective of whether its a person or a rock.

That said combat would push a Jedi to their limits, and in both RL and in fantasy worlds it's common that one's "true" strength only comes into being when really pushed, when you really need to dig deep in a life or death situation. What doesn't kill you makes your stronger. But for a Jedi it also comes with the risk of falling to or becoming clouded/unbalanced by the dark side.

Altogether I think as long as you maintain your literal cool, you're more likely to get more powerful in the Force by being pushed in combat, as opposed to meditating. So I'd give it to the SWTOR Jedi, who holistically have superior Force feats and quite tellingly really impressive feats from no-namers and minor characters.

Problem is one could argue that the PT Jedi Order had there powers lessened somewhat by the influence of the dark side. Which as an external factor makes comparison (in a neutral setting) problematic.

What does SWTOR have to do with this thread, tho?

It's basically Kotor but better.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda isn't the only.... whatever he is Jedi in history.

No, but he's the only member of his species that has been Grand Master for centuries preceding one of the wars.

If there's another long-lived grand master of comparable force knowledge, it's during one of the long-peace periods like the gaps after the Legion of Lettow, before the Great Hyperspace War, or between TOR and the New Sith Wars.


Originally posted by chilled monkey

EvanNova95 made a very good point about this. He noted that while the KOTOR-SWTOR era Jedi had more overall combat experience, one major drawback to this was that the unforgiving nature of battlefield engagements meant they really didn't have time or place to experiment with their fighting techniques. They had to adapt a "stick to what works" mentality.

Yes, there's definitely advantages to peace.

Probably the best Jedi are those who've had a lot of peace, but enough war to hone their blade.



Originally posted by Sinious
They're a bit weird tbh. Their top players are very impressive but I think they lack the cultural discipline of prior eras mostly due to the damage the order received with O66.


Though their willingness to learn from a wide range of sources helped them adjust and gave them a large knowledge base (if at the cost of a high proportion of brushes with the dark side). They also seemed more worldly than PT Jedi, including in Cade's time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's basically Kotor but better.

Except, it's canonically confirmed to be not.

Originally posted by ares834
Except, it's canonically confirmed to be not. To be honest it could easily be extended to SWTOR as it is referring to the same era which possesses the same contexts.

No. It's referring to the era of the campaign guide ergo TotJ/KotOR.

Which has since been expanded, SWTOR is essentially a continuation of KOTOR.

And yet, that's not what the guide is covering. It's referring specifically to those two time periods. In fact, IIRC, it even mentions that the Jedi Order goes from it's peak to near extinction.

My point is that there is no reason to believe the Jedi were no longer in their prime come the GGW. The fact that it doesn't include SWTOR is irrelevant, considering SWTOR did not at this time exist.

Sure there was. The became near extinct during KotOR 2...

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's basically Kotor but better.
So nothing, then.

https://youtu.be/Cf8Jj_GuJ3E?t=385
No not this one.. The one were it talk about how massiv the Jedi order was... Dammit...

More than that. Dooku, Grievous, Asajj, Sora Bulq, Durge, Maul, Savage, and some lesser Dark Jedi like Tol Skorr.


Plus even droids, especially the higher ones like droideka and magnaguards, were threats. Magnaguard definitely made Jedi brush up on dueling skill!







Both true points, but I think the three hundred years after was enough time to recover pretty well (I mean, Luke's order got up to proper order size in just one century). Heck, TOR is the most rawly numerous period of force users. Because they knew they were facing sith they recruited many, but unlike the New Sith Wars, had the time and capability to actually train them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
My point is that there is no reason to believe the Jedi were no longer in their prime come the GGW. The fact that it doesn't include SWTOR is irrelevant, considering SWTOR did not at this time exist.

How about the fact they were completely and utterly decimated, and rebuilt on the backs of people who weren't even raised as Jedi? Mical would be the only reason the SWTOR Order survived, but even he couldn't bring them into an actual prime in 300 years. It's probably the reason they're so different as an order to everyone else.

And that Campaign guide gives time periods that it covers, all ending before SWTOR.

It cover up to the aftermath of the Dark Wars and goes no further. the SWTOR order is completely different from the one decimated by the Sith Triumvirate, we have no reason to apply OSW Jedi Order quotes to SWTOR Jedi Order.

Wasn't the Jedi Order of Kotor completely gone before the Sith Triumvirate appeared? I haven't played Kotor 2 in some time, but I recall that the Jedi Order was pretty much gone before the Triumvirate actually came into play. They were just hunting down the last of the Jedi.

"By the war's end barely a hundred Jedi remained."

So yes it was largely the Jedi Civil War and Revan's Sith Empire that did it, not surprising considering that Revan's Empire was on par with the Galactic Empire as per the KOTOR CG.

The Triumvirate was essentially the extension of that Empire after Malak but without the Star Forge.

I'm not seeing how Revan's Sith Empire is on par with the GE, Revan's Empire only covered 1/3rd of the known galaxy at the time, with many planets being in contest between it and the Republic. The GE was far bigger and had a greater technological advantage, unless the quote is meaning as far as threatening goes of that time it's comparable in that timeframe.

The only thing the SE of the time would have over the GE, would be the Starforge and it's mass production capability, but this alone wouldn't be enough as the GE does also have mass production capability, it probably wouldn't be as fast. But considering the standing GE military without mass producing anything, it would still be gigantic, considering the scale of the GE.

The Republic was more powerful than the Sith Empire of the time, even with the Star Forge. And the Republic was a mess.

Originally posted by Q99
No, but he's the only member of his species that has been Grand Master for centuries preceding one of the wars.

If there's another long-lived grand master of comparable force knowledge, it's during one of the long-peace periods like the gaps after the Legion of Lettow, before the Great Hyperspace War, or between TOR and the New Sith Wars.




Yes, there's definitely advantages to peace.

Probably the best Jedi are those who've had a lot of peace, but enough war to hone their blade.






Though their willingness to learn from a wide range of sources helped them adjust and gave them a large knowledge base (if at the cost of a high proportion of brushes with the dark side). They also seemed more worldly than PT Jedi, including in Cade's time.

Eh, Vandar Tokare was probably at least 300 years old at the time of his death, given 273 years before Katarr he was already training multiple apprentices at Ossus. Even 4-500 years wouldn't be a stretch imo. While Vandar is never canonically confirmed as Grand Master, it kind of seems like he was when you look at how he Vrook is the only other contender for the spot by the Mando Wars time.

Then Odan-Urr was over 1,000 at the time of his death.

Not Yoda level either of them, but KOTOR did have some experienced masters.

According to the KOTOR CG Darth Revan's Sith Empire was on par with the Galactic Empire. It states repeatedly that legions of Sith Troopers and their masters swept across the galaxy.

There are quite a few statements infact debunking the idea that the Republic was comparable in size. Which makes sense when it is stated that Revan was prepared to strike the Core Worlds which would be impossible without the Inner Rim already largely under his control.

Then consider the fact that Revan disappeared with a third of the Republic navy and then returned with a massive armada of Rakatan built Sith Interdictors as well. Then the Republic Navy had the living shit kicked out of it for years until Bastila appeared.

It's not, it simply isn't. It has *maybe* a fifth the territory, if that, and it's ships are a lot smaller and weaker.

Here is the Revan Empire's territory, just the yellow.

Here is the Galactic Empire, the GE including the *purple* bits (i.e. the fullest extent on that map).


The Galactic Empire could smush the Raven Empire no matter how you slice it.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, Vandar Tokare was probably at least 300 years old at the time of his death, given 273 years before Katarr he was already training multiple apprentices at Ossus. Even 4-500 years wouldn't be a stretch imo. While Vandar is never canonically confirmed as Grand Master, it kind of seems like he was when you look at how he Vrook is the only other contender for the spot by the Mando Wars time.

Then Odan-Urr was over 1,000 at the time of his death.

Not Yoda level either of them, but KOTOR did have some experienced masters.


Yes, and the PT (and beyond) has T'ra Saa as well. It's not just the presence of long-liveds, but the perfect storm of a long-lived of that power and skill at the force, at the top of the organization for so long, and spending a lot of effort training people.

Vander might've been GM by Revan's time, but that'd only be after Nomi at best, so he's only in charge for a few decades tops.


Odan-Urr was probably the closest to Yoda in influence, but they lost him with the Exar Kun war.

It's not, it simply isn't. It has *maybe* a fifth the territory, if that, and it's ships are a lot smaller and weaker.

I'm quoting SW legend here....

Keep in mind that this map is written by republican historian that have no idea of what's happeing in the unknowed region...

This map is on this website site in higher resolution :
http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/TimeLine.html
http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/images/Cartes_galactiques/Guerre_civile_des_Jedi-Seconde_guerre_des_Siths.png

We don't know if Revan empire had relation with chiss etc... We know nothing about it...
Since the day where Revan empire claim indepency over Vitiate own empire by pretexting to keep the true sith empire hidden from the republic. I don't thik that both empire where in collaboration anymore.... Revan had just gather men from Vitiate army for sure....

http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/effectifs_militaires_de_revan.html

Butr there is mystery about that....


Revan army real problem was bad ass Boudhists Monks that could hold a siege against an entire army of samouraïe during 11 years.....
XD (We all know that those bad ass Boudhist Monk heavly inspired George Lucas in creating the Jedi order... In the otehr hand we heavly doubts about them to be really monks... And as the Jedi are suspect to be kinda hypocrites....)

Originally posted by Selenial
How about the fact they were completely and utterly decimated, and rebuilt on the backs of people who weren't even raised as Jedi? Mical would be the only reason the SWTOR Order survived, but even he couldn't bring them into an actual prime in 300 years. It's probably the reason they're so different as an order to everyone else.

And that Campaign guide gives time periods that it covers, all ending before SWTOR. Meh, I guess so, I'm just attempting to make the statement make sense.Originally posted by Q99
It's not, it simply isn't. It has *maybe* a fifth the territory, if that, and it's ships are a lot smaller and weaker.

Here is the Revan Empire's territory, just the yellow.

Here is the Galactic Empire, the GE including the *purple* bits (i.e. the fullest extent on that map).


The Galactic Empire could smush the Revan Empire no matter how you slice it.

I'd also like to see this accolade, as it's likely being stretched out of proportion.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, I guess so, I'm just attempting to make the statement make sense.

I'd also like to see this accolade, as it's likely being stretched out of proportion.

Here's the quote.



However it appears it's just meaning it's galaxy threatening for the time because it then states that at the height of its power is much like the Republic.




It seems to me it's not saying it's comparable to the GE, but it's comparable of being the GE of that timeframe.

It doesn't add up that the SE, would be on par with the GE with the great technological difference and the fact it has a much smaller occupation of space.

More to that, if it was the size of the GE and on par, the Republic wouldn't have stood any chance at all even with the Jedi. The Starforge wouldn't make that huge a difference, otherwise again how would the Republic have even lasted to even fight?

Plus with Rataka infused tech ships n such, I don't see as big a game changer because during the space battle of the Starforge, the Republic fleet was able to destroy those Rataka infused ships, and yes I know the Battle Meditation was turned against them, but the point is, that wouldn't really matter if the ships of the SE being enhanced because the ships didn't just turn back to normal after the Republic started winning.

Originally posted by Selenial
How about the fact they were completely and utterly decimated, and rebuilt on the backs of people who weren't even raised as Jedi? Mical would be the only reason the SWTOR Order survived, but even he couldn't bring them into an actual prime in 300 years. It's probably the reason they're so different as an order to everyone else.

And that Campaign guide gives time periods that it covers, all ending before SWTOR.

Pretty sure they still had all the information of the Jedi and their teachings and techniques available to them, waiting on Coruscant. The Noeticons, the Tedryn Holocron, the holocron chamber and also whatever Atris had on Telos. Atris herself could likely pass on a lot of Jedi knowledge. And don't forget Bastila, we know she was able to work on the Noeticons personally and pass on her knowledge.

They lost a lot of Jedi in the purge but the actual knowledge of the order was intact. As far as I know Coruscant wasn't ever breached.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, I guess so, I'm just attempting to make the statement make sense.

I'd also like to see this accolade, as it's likely being stretched out of proportion.

I think that I underlined the complexity and the mystery of the story....

Since It was quasi minimum... It was more passive help than active one.. Still Revan gather mens and assassins.

+
http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/effectifs_militaires_de_revan.html
This website estimate Revan army effectives and old republic army.. Since a 1/3 of the old republic army have been given to Revan command. In order to calculate Darth Revan army's Size. you must estimate how many men that Republic can mobilized....

We know that 50.000.000 soldiers die at Malachor V.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Here's the quote.



However it appears it's just meaning it's galaxy threatening for the time because it then states that at the height of its power is much like the Republic.




It seems to me it's not saying it's comparable to the GE, but it's comparable of being the GE of that timeframe.

It doesn't add up that the SE, would be on par with the GE with the great technological difference and the fact it has a much smaller occupation of space.

More to that, if it was the size of the GE and on par, the Republic wouldn't have stood any chance at all even with the Jedi. The Starforge wouldn't make that huge a difference, otherwise again how would the Republic have even lasted to even fight?

Plus with Rataka infused tech ships n such, I don't see as big a game changer because during the space battle of the Starforge, the Republic fleet was able to destroy those Rataka infused ships, and yes I know the Battle Meditation was turned against them, but the point is, that wouldn't really matter if the ships of the SE being enhanced because the ships didn't just turn back to normal after the Republic started winning. I see, and I would agree, there's certainly no truth in its parity with the GE.

So either your assessment or its just plain hyperbole.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure they still had all the information of the Jedi and their teachings and techniques available to them, waiting on Coruscant. The Noeticons, the Tedryn Holocron, the holocron chamber and also whatever Atris had on Telos. Atris herself could likely pass on a lot of Jedi knowledge. And don't forget Bastila, we know she was able to work on the Noeticons personally and pass on her knowledge.

They lost a lot of Jedi in the purge but the actual knowledge of the order was intact. As far as I know Coruscant wasn't ever breached.

? Legend that quote isn't in the novel, I just looked and it doesn't make sense for it to be in that novel anyway.

It seems to be from something called "Introduction to the Old Republic Era" which was appended to various books...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure they still had all the information of the Jedi and their teachings and techniques available to them, waiting on Coruscant. The Noeticons, the Tedryn Holocron, the holocron chamber and also whatever Atris had on Telos. Atris herself could likely pass on a lot of Jedi knowledge. And don't forget Bastila, we know she was able to work on the Noeticons personally and pass on her knowledge.

They lost a lot of Jedi in the purge but the actual knowledge of the order was intact. As far as I know Coruscant wasn't ever breached.

The Coruscant Temple was entirely cleared of Jedi by the Assassins, every temple is confirmed barren in the Kotor Campaign Guide, if Coruscant was so untouchable it would not have remained so. Not to mention a very popular theory as to why the Exile was made so famous on Coruscant is that the Sith wanted to know immediately if she was to arrive.

Yes, Bastila and Atris. Atris was said to stand on trial by the new council, so I doubt she was trusted too much, though I agree that Bastila may have aided them. Surik herself also stayed on for a time to make sure the order would survive.

That does not mean they would have made it out of everything as perfectly powerful as when they came in, obviously some secrets were lost, some that may have taken as long as 3000 years to make it back to the Jedi. Dantooine was almost as large as Coruscant in terms of Jedi trained, and all of their holocrons were looted and sold after Malak destroyed the place.

Much of their history was gone.

Originally posted by Selenial
The Coruscant Temple was entirely cleared of Jedi by the Assassins, every temple is confirmed barren in the Kotor Campaign Guide, if Coruscant was so untouchable it would not have remained so. Not to mention a very popular theory as to why the Exile was made so famous on Coruscant is that the Sith wanted to know immediately if she was to arrive.

Yes, Bastila and Atris. Atris was said to stand on trial by the new council, so I doubt she was trusted too much, though I agree that Bastila may have aided them. Surik herself also stayed on for a time to make sure the order would survive.

That does not mean they would have made it out of everything as perfectly powerful as when they came in, obviously some secrets were lost, some that may have taken as long as 3000 years to make it back to the Jedi. Dantooine was almost as large as Coruscant in terms of Jedi trained, and all of their holocrons were looted and sold after Malak destroyed the place.

Much of their history was gone.

The great majority of the Jedi died on Katarr and the handful who didn't immediately went into hiding. There'd be no reason for the Sith to go to Coruscant and destroy the Jedi's knowledge and I highly doubt the Republic would allow them to either. Carth at least (as an admiral) would guard the temple somewhat. Yeah, if any Jedi was dumb enough to go to the temple they'd be killed most likely, but none did and the Sith wouldn't reveal themselves in an pointless attack on the temple to destroy their knowledge and artifacts.

Atris wouldn't be trusted but she'd still have the resources she'd gathered on Telos. Sure, she had a ton of sith holocrons, but I'm sure she had a bunch of regular Jedi knowledge as well since it WAS a Jedi academy.

I think 300 years would be more than enough time to track down some stolen holocrons. Given the size and ubiquity of the Jedi by the time of Swtor they'd be able to unearth any lost knowledge pretty easily. I also doubt Dantooine had much that couldn't be found on Coruscant. Maybe some super obscure techniques that don't really impact the strength of the average Jedi at all, most likely. Everything that a standard Jedi would learn was protected. Also they're very much capable of inventing new stuff themselves.

But none of that really matters since the order still possessed the Noeticons, the Great Holocron and the Tedryn Holocron which combined possess the accumulated wisdom and knowledge of the greatest Jedi to ever live. How could they have lost much of their history when they can chat with the key figures in it whenever they want?

So I don't see anything that would make them weaker as an order to one far less militarised and much smaller. Also the Swtor Jedi rediscovered knowledge on Tython that the Kotor Jedi didn't possess.