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All in peak incarnations (physical form). Fight.

Jedi win.

Luke > Sidious

Yoda > Vitiate

...Tough call, tough call.

Luke>Sidious>Vitiate>Yoda

I'm inclined to go with the Light Side, because Luke's Battle Meld helps Yoda keep up and Dark Siders inherently aren't good at teamwork. Force storms are a non factor, as Yoda>>>>>>Leia, and if Luke and Leia could stop one...hell, with Yoda, Luke may even be able to stop Ziost attacks that way.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
hell, with Yoda, Luke may even be able to stop Ziost attacks that way.
Ziost was Ghost!Vitiate. This is physical form Vitiate.

De sinuous can destroy yoda. However with this the Jedi still win as vitiate is the weak link here. Palpatines power can only make up for so much and vitiate maybe powerful but he is below all three here. So as much as I hate to say it the Jedi win.

lol

I doubt Luke is better than Sidious as a duelist, and his feat in DE of destroying multiple rebel fleets with force storms while simultaneously controlling a storm on Coruscant impresses me more than Luke's Dovin basal feat. I'd side with Sidious on that end

Originally posted by carthage
I doubt Luke is better than Sidious as a duelist, and his feat in DE of destroying multiple rebel fleets with force storms while simultaneously controlling a storm on Coruscant impresses me more than Luke's Dovin basal feat. I'd side with Sidious on that end


Everyone in their prime. I'd say Luke has surpassed palaptine in every category when they are both in their primes. Sidious prime is DE. Luke's prime is NJO. Luke is definitely more powerful and marginally a better duelist. I agree but Force storm takes time to make.

Luke has struggled with Lumiya, Welk, Lomi Plo i,e duelists he should logically annihilate. Sidious has beaten Yoda who is above Caedus in just about everything barring esoteric abilities, they're close but Sidious is canonically better than Caedus. He's also beaten Luke before as well so that helps imo

Luke's prime is technically FOTJ.

Luke and Yoda take this.

Team Sith is too strong for any Jedi duo.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
De sinuous can destroy yoda. However with this the Jedi still win as vitiate is the weak link here. Palpatines power can only make up for so much and vitiate maybe powerful but he is below all three here. So as much as I hate to say it the Jedi win.
Vitiate is the weak link? You got to be f****** kidding me.

Vitiate will drain and telepathically disorient the Jedi while Sidious stabs each with the lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Team Sith is too strong for any Jedi duo.


Vitiate is the weak link? You got to be f****** kidding me.

Vitiate will drain and telepathically disorient the Jedi while Sidious stabs each with the lightsaber.

http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab318/cheapoman/Gifs/0073_1nbe-1.gif

LeGenD needs to think about career in stand-up tbh. He has the chops for it.

Originally posted by carthage
Luke has struggled with Lumiya, Welk, Lomi Plo i,e duelists he should logically annihilate. Sidious has beaten Yoda who is above Caedus in just about everything barring esoteric abilities, they're close but Sidious is canonically better than Caedus. He's also beaten Luke before as well so that helps imo

And non-prime Luke beat him on even ground. Seems pretty clear that Luke is the better duelist, especially from end of NJO and onward.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Team Sith is too strong for any Jedi duo.


Vitiate is the weak link? You got to be f****** kidding me.

Vitiate will drain and telepathically disorient the Jedi while Sidious stabs each with the lightsaber.

Out of the three he is the weakest. I have hard time believing that in their primes vitiate can disorient them or drain them. So with that his telepathic powers aren't going to help. His drain ability won't help either. With that whoever he goes up agaisn't he will lose unless he's going up against Luke and can at the very least keep like on the defensive while Sidious takes out yoda making it a 2v1. Luke can still win. He can archive oneness with the force or use his sheer power to win. No matter what scenario, the Jedi win.

In his prime was t Caedus able to hold off Luke and Jaina in lightsaber combat while injured at the same time. Also wasn't he able to rival Luke in terms of the force.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
In his prime was t Caedus able to hold off Luke and Jaina in lightsaber combat while injured at the same time. Also wasn't he able to rival Luke in terms of the force.

He held off both individually while injured in each fight, but never both at once. And nah, he can't rival Luke in terms of the Force. Luke's TK is way above Caedus', Caedus has some nice exotic techniques but Luke is solidly above him in terms of overall Force capabilities.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Out of the three he is the weakest. I have hard time believing that in their primes vitiate can disorient them or drain them. So with that his telepathic powers aren't going to help.
What?

The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

Vitiate's telepathic powers are not to be underestimated.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
His drain ability won't help either.
Excuse me! Vitiate is able to drain virtually anybody, even the spirits. None can resist his Force Drain powers. And his most potent expressions of Force Drain can literally atomize living beings including Jedi and Sith.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
With that whoever he goes up agaisn't he will lose unless he's going up against Luke and can at the very least keep like on the defensive while Sidious takes out yoda making it a 2v1. Luke can still win. He can archive oneness with the force or use his sheer power to win. No matter what scenario, the Jedi win.
Oneness with the Force is not a defensive technique. It enhances a Jedi's connectivity to the Force.

Vitiate have defeated a Strike Team of some of the strongest Jedi of the Order. He can handle any single Jedi.

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy." (Darth Marr)

Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab318/cheapoman/Gifs/0073_1nbe-1.gif
See above.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What?

The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

Well like is no ordinary light sider. He is the light sider. That's like saying palaptines lightning is matched by none. That's not taking into consideration others in the future or people like the ones, however it does take into consideration people from history aka your old republic people.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

Vitiate's telepathic powers are not to be underestimated.

And it doesn't mean that they can resist.

Excuse me! Vitiate is able to drain virtually anybody, even the spirits. None can resist his Force Drain powers. And his most potent expressions of Force Drain can literally atomize living beings including Jedi and Sith.


Well it won't work agaisn't force users of Luke and Yodas caliber. Get over it.

Oneness with the Force is not a defensive technique. It enhances a Jedi's connectivity to the Force.

Again only to disprove you. Achieving oneness with the force amps everything a user has. Also by himself Luke is more powerful than vitiate by a landslide. Lucas has stated that Luke is the greatest most powerful Jedi/SITH that there ever has or will be. With that vitiate gets stomped by Luke no matter what form he's in.

Vitiate have defeated a Strike Team of some of the strongest Jedi of the Order. He can handle any single Jedi.

Of their order, none of which hold a candle to Luke Skywalker or yoda.

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy." (Darth Marr)

Darth Marr didn't know about Darth Sidious, Luke Skywlaker, yoda. So that statement is not a really helpful one. Also it says truly destroy which means vitiate is someone who does 1) essence transfer or spam other thing, however he can be defeated.


See above.

Vitiate agains gets stomped and isn't this him in his physical form? Stay on topic. He is the we least and can't defeat any of the Jedi so the SITH lose due to having the weak link.

No one person that existed in Vitiate's era, at last. That doesn't really take into account Chosen Ones and their heirs. Luke is the best the Jedi have ever had.

"Is the Dark Side stronger?" "No. But easier it is. More seductive..."

Yoda, whatever else you might say about him, is well aware of the strength of the light vs. the strength of the dark. If he says the dark isn't stronger...then it isn't, by word of Episode 5.

Originally posted by Angelalex242

Yoda, whatever else you might say about him, is well aware of the strength of the light vs. the strength of the dark. If he says the dark isn't stronger...then it isn't, by word of Episode 5.

Why are you so obsessed with this tbh?

Because people have been overrating the Dark Side because it's flashy.

Actually the dark side is stronger, just because yoda says something does it mean it true. Something about this. If he is asked the question of light vs dark, of course he is going to,say light because what side has he been on for 900 years? So yea he is going to say the light, just like any Jedi would. However in all honesty and truth, the dark side is stronger of the two. Why do you think palaptine looks the way he is? It's because of dark side degradation. The dark side is like a drug, it makes you feel good but at a cost to your physical appearance.

Also by showings, the dark side is more powerful. Sidious vs Yoda, dooku, vaapad, the abilities. All of these point to the dark side being superior, also dark is always stronger than light, the light just either gets lucky, or some sudden Burt of energy or assistance helps it.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Vitiate agains gets stomped and isn't this him in his physical form? Stay on topic. He is the we least and can't defeat any of the Jedi so the SITH lose due to having the weak link.
Translation: I (EmperorSidious2) don't have any argument so I am reverting back to my baseless assumptions.

Again, it is asinine to assume that Luke Skywalker and Yoda are virtually immune to external threats and deadly Force powers. They are likely to perish in this contest.

Learn to differentiate between mechanics of storytelling and hypothetical scenarios which are supposed to be fair. As an author, I can make it possible for a weak character to survive in an encounter with a strong character, but this would be PIS for the sake of storytelling to make it interesting for the audience. In real life, the strong may squash the weak like a bug.

Vitiate is not the weak link, he have best showings among the combatants. And him supporting Sidious is simply too much for any Jedi to cope with.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Because people have been overrating the Dark Side because it's flashy.

I do think its a shortcut to greater power but yeah, its advantage can be exaggerated sometimes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate have defeated a Strike Team of some of the strongest Jedi of the Order. He can handle any single Jedi.

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy." (Darth Marr)Because Darth Marr has knowledge of Yoda and Luke... Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Learn to differentiate between mechanics of storytelling and hypothetical scenarios which are supposed to be fair. As an author, I can make it possible for a weak character to survive in an encounter with a strong character, but this would be PIS for the sake of storytelling to make it interesting for the audience. In real life, the strong may squash the weak like a bug.Relevation: Star Wars is not real. Storytelling scenarios = hypothetical scenarios.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Actually the dark side is stronger, just because yoda says something does it mean it true. Something about this. If he is asked the question of light vs dark, of course he is going to,say light because what side has he been on for 900 years? So yea he is going to say the light, just like any Jedi would. However in all honesty and truth, the dark side is stronger of the two. Why do you think palaptine looks the way he is? It's because of dark side degradation. The dark side is like a drug, it makes you feel good but at a cost to your physical appearance.

Also by showings, the dark side is more powerful. Sidious vs Yoda, dooku, vaapad, the abilities. All of these point to the dark side being superior, also dark is always stronger than light, the light just either gets lucky, or some sudden Burt of energy or assistance helps it. Lol. The dark side being stronger doesn't make logical sense, because the Force is about balance, balance between light and dark, ying and yang. If the dark side were inherently stronger the Force would be inherently imbalanced and indeed balance would be impossible to achieve.

Case in point: The Son and the Daughter, respective embodiements of the dark and the light, yet neither appear to be more powerful and when they confront one another they appear to stalemate. If what your saying were true the Son would have the inherent advantage.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/yXPo8b.gif

The "showings" of Sith and Jedi are irrelevant, because none of them actually personify the light or dark side. So some Sith are more powerful than some Jedi, great. The reverse is often true as well. The flashiness of Sith abilities isn't proof of superiority either, the dark side represents destruction, the light side creation. So naturally Sith powers will be more destructive, but that doesn't make the Sith stronger.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Darth Marr has knowledge of Yoda and Luke...
Are Luke Skywalker and Yoda immune to external threats? Are they?

Revan is strong just like them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Relevation: Star Wars is not real. Storytelling scenarios = hypothetical scenarios.
Thanks for reminding me that Star Wars is fiction when their was no such need. My point however flew above your head.

Storytelling is always about arousing interest in audience. This is possible with use of fictional elements to make the story interesting.

Consider the example of WWE. Its fights are mostly staged. Due to this fact, we don't know how the real fights will turn out and who can defeat whom in what amount of time span. Perhaps Big Show may knock out John Cena with a single punch in real life. However, in a WWE fight, situation is different due to storytelling.

Abeloth have wide array of unique abilities unseen in TOR era. Abeloth have overpowered Son and Daughter simultaneously. Light Side and Dark Side combined or Dagger of Mortis are only ways to defeat Abeloth.

Emperor Vitiate have neither of said requirements. Maybe if combined with an elite TOR Light Side Force user, someone at least on level of Count Dooku or Darth Vader - perhaps Kao Cen Darach?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol. The dark side being stronger doesn't make logical sense, because the Force is about balance, balance between light and dark, ying and yang. If the dark side were inherently stronger the Force would be inherently imbalanced and indeed balance would be impossible to achieve.

Case in point: The Son and the Daughter, respective embodiements of the dark and the light, yet neither appear to be more powerful and when they confront one another they appear to stalemate. If what your saying were true the Son would have the inherent advantage.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/yXPo8b.gif

The "showings" of Sith and Jedi are irrelevant, because none of them actually personify the light or dark side. So some Sith are more powerful than some Jedi, great. The reverse is often true as well. The flashiness of Sith abilities isn't proof of superiority either, the dark side represents destruction, the light side creation. So naturally Sith powers will be more destructive, but that doesn't make the Sith stronger.

What was ROTS and 20+ years after and a little while before. The force was out of balance and to which side. The dark side. While I agree that the force Is about balance. I believe I may misinterpret more destructive power of being more powerful. I still stay with the belief the dark side is stronger as it has more abilities at its disposal and the sheer power of it causes degredation. so yes I understand point but the dark side shows more destructive power and more willingness to use it. Also I suggests you listen to this video. https://youtu.be/8jftZUJDvFw. This is his opinion on why he believes the dark side is stronger or not.

So with what your saying wouldn't that make what yoda said dishonest and non valid now,as according to you the force is all about balance not one overpowering the other. So that makes what yoda said his own opinion and not factual proven.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Translation: I (EmperorSidious2) don't have any argument so I am reverting back to my baseless assumptions.

Again, it is asinine to assume that Luke Skywalker and Yoda are virtually immune to external threats and deadly Force powers. They are likely to perish in this contest.

Learn to differentiate between mechanics of storytelling and hypothetical scenarios which are supposed to be fair. As an author, I can make it possible for a weak character to survive in an encounter with a strong character, but this would be PIS for the sake of storytelling to make it interesting for the audience. In real life, the strong may squash the weak like a bug.

Vitiate is not the weak link, he have best showings among the combatants. And him supporting Sidious is simply too much for any Jedi to cope with.

How don't I have an argument. Out of three how is he not the weakest. Sidious and Luke are both definitely the top 2. So the weak link would be either vitiate or yoda. Yoda in his prime, we see what he can do outside his prime and it's challenge a ROTS Sidious in the force. In his prime imagine what he can. Vitiate is the weak link if yoda out of his prime can take palpatines lightning then he can definitely take on vitiates lightning. Also get a real argument going please at least make this fun.

Translation. You don't have any real reason to know if it would work against yoda and Luke. These guys are high level, the highest level of the force outside the ONES. Why would drain work, because it's worked on everyone else? Did t he need rituals to do most of that stuff? None of those beings are on the level of yoda or Sidious or Luke. Also wasn't Revan able to eventually snap out of vitiates control. Luke by himself would demolish vitiate. So with that then vitiates in his physical form so none of that he can do all this in a ghost form, he's in physical form.



Exactly that's what vitiate has. Game mechanics. Storytelling and game mechanics. Some of his feats are game mechanics so like you said aren't really that likely to happen in an actual battle. I'm glad you know.

If he isn't the weakest, who is? I'll give you a hint it would be between yoda and vitiate and yoda would come out on top. I doubt it. Anything in the games don't count. I doubt anything vitiate has can top palpatine. He would over yoda as we have never seen yoda in his prime only in ROTS and ESB. Luke, has a title and feats to out due vitiate. With all of this vitiate is the weak link. In terms of who is most powerful it goes like this Luke>Sidious>yoda>vitiate. Vitiate being to far behind makes the SITH victory hard to gain.

Originally posted by Trocity
Abeloth have wide array of unique abilities unseen in TOR era.
Such as?

Originally posted by Trocity
Abeloth have overpowered Son and Daughter simultaneously.
Correct.

Originally posted by Trocity
Light Side and Dark Side combined or Dagger of Mortis are only ways to defeat Abeloth. Emperor Vitiate have neither of said requirements.
No.

The Sith and the Jedi forged temporary alliance to stop Revan. So do you think that this is the requirement to defeat Revan?

You need to differentiate story elements from requirements.

Originally posted by Trocity
Maybe if combined with an elite TOR Light Side Force user, someone at least on level of Count Dooku or Darth Vader - perhaps Kao Cen Darach?
It is not possible to stop Vitiate with conventional means. Ziost had to be abandoned due to this reason.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
What was ROTS and 20+ years after and a little while before. The force was out of balance and to which side. The dark side. While I agree that the force Is about balance. I believe I may misinterpret more destructive power of being more powerful. I still stay with the belief the dark side is stronger as it has more abilities at its disposal and the sheer power of it causes degredation. so yes I understand point but the dark side shows more destructive power and more willingness to use it. Also I suggests you listen to this video. https://youtu.be/8jftZUJDvFw. This is his opinion on why he believes the dark side is stronger or not.

So with what your saying wouldn't that make what yoda said dishonest and non valid now,as according to you the force is all about balance not one overpowering the other.Key word: out of balance. The dark side being stronger than the light side represents imbalance, its unnatural. The dark and light are naturally equal.

And yes I believe you are misinterpreting. More effective in battle? Perhaps. But not more powerful. And even in battle, the destructive power of the dark will always meet its match with the defensive and cleansing powers of the light.

Even the most powerful dark side ability in mythos: the Force storm, was thwarted by a light side power, a Wall of Light.

Your also incorrect it assuming is sheer power that causes a Sith's body to decay, its not, its the corruptive aspect of the dark side. Ying and yang, the dark side is corruption and death the light side is the opposite, purity and life - and indeed where the dark side corrupts a Sith, powerful Jedi are often blessed with youth and longevity.

And I have plans to watch that video, but I expect I'll disagree. Not really. Lets look at what is actually said:

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?

Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

All Yoda says is the dark side is not stronger, he never says it is weaker. And he is correct, it is the quicker path to power, but that doesn't make it weaker, just easier to aquire. That said the Jedi are not the authority on the subject, they may believe that light side is stronger and there is a suggestion that they do. But that interpretation would be wrong, and Lucas has himself implied that the Jedi interpretation of the Force is incorrect.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Are Luke Skywalker and Yoda immune to external threats? Are they?

Revan is strong just like them.Nope but they can overcome them.

Revan isn't as strong as Yoda or Luke.Other way around I'm afraid, your next getting that this is a fictional universe and this is a fictional debate, out of universe things like PIS therefore not relevant, what happened happened. Those are the facts of this fictional universe. Your attempts to say what would "really" happen is just baseless assumptions.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How don't I have an argument. Out of three how is he not the weakest. Sidious and Luke are both definitely the top 2. So the weak link would be either vitiate or yoda. Yoda in his prime, we see what he can do outside his prime and it's challenge a ROTS Sidious in the force. In his prime imagine what he can. Vitiate is the weak link if yoda out of his prime can take palpatines lightning then he can definitely take on vitiates lightning. Also get a real argument going please at least make this fun.
Your assumptions are based on revelations in sources that are outdated in coverage of material and predate introduction of Vitiate to the mythos. These revelations are likely to be scrutinized in the light of latest developments. As I pointed out to you, Vitiate have superior showings then all other participants in this hypothetical contest. His showings have to be taken into consideration.

It makes no sense to use revelations of outdated sources to dictate rankings. If Vitiate had been shown to be inferior to the other participants, then your position would have weightage and we won't be having this argument.

Vitiate can devastate entire worlds and atomize living beings. Other participants do not match these showings with exception of Palpatine (DE). Though Vitiate fights differently then Palpatine. Luke Skywalker might be able to take on Palpatine in a duel but Vitiate can use his powers to disorient both Jedi and also drain them. Due to such pressures, the Jedi are unlikely to function in effective manner and are likely to perish. Nothing in my assertion is far-fetched and impossible to believe.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Translation. You don't have any real reason to know if it would work against yoda and Luke. These guys are high level, the highest level of the force outside the ONES. Why would drain work, because it's worked on everyone else? Did t he need rituals to do most of that stuff? None of those beings are on the level of yoda or Sidious or Luke. Also wasn't Revan able to eventually snap out of vitiates control. Luke by himself would demolish vitiate. So with that then vitiates in his physical form so none of that he can do all this in a ghost form, he's in physical form.
Genius, Force Drain works on everybody. It worked on even Abeloth. You have memory problems or you don't bother reading materials?

In addition, it is stated that Vitiate's telepathic powers can influence even the strongest of the Jedi. Is this too difficult for you to comprehend?

No, Vitiate doesn't needs rituals to perform his actions. He performed rituals to increase his understanding of the Dark Side, nothing else. Once he mastered a technique, their was no need for a ritual to perform it.

Revan was able to snap out of Vitiate's control due to actions of the Jedi High Council of his era. They erased his mind and this broke Vitiate's hold over Revan for good. Revan did try to suppress Vitiate's hold over him on his own but he was only able to lessen the influence and not break it fully, and this development took some time. So its not like that Luke Skywalker and Yoda can just shrug off Vitiate's telepathic powers. Even Lord Nyax was able to dominate Luke with his telepathic powers.

That is an assumption. Vitiate can do anything in his corporeal form.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Exactly that's what vitiate has. Game mechanics. Storytelling and game mechanics. Some of his feats are game mechanics so like you said aren't really that likely to happen in an actual battle. I'm glad you know.
Excuse me! Most of his feats are in the cut-scenes and also documented.

Check this blog: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/emperor-vitiate-respect-thread/97466/

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If he isn't the weakest, who is? I'll give you a hint it would be between yoda and vitiate and yoda would come out on top. I doubt it. Anything in the games don't count. I doubt anything vitiate has can top palpatine. He would over yoda as we have never seen yoda in his prime only in ROTS and ESB. Luke, has a title and feats to out due vitiate. With all of this vitiate is the weak link. In terms of who is most powerful it goes like this Luke>Sidious>yoda>vitiate. Vitiate being to far behind makes the SITH victory hard to gain.
Addressed above.

Vitiate is likely the strongest Force-user in this contest in fairness. Yoda is the weakest link in this contest.

Vitiate have superior showings then Palpatine. The latter only competes with command of the Force Storms (DE incarnation being considered).

We the see the best of Yoda in the PT era. His physical prime may make some difference but it won't be enormous.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope but they can overcome them.
They cannot just tank every Force power. They have limits.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Revan isn't as strong as Yoda or Luke.
Revan is regarded as the Jedi Order's most powerful champion, stronger then any individual whom Meetra Surik have met in life, acquired the capability to perform oneness attacks at will by calling upon both the Light and Dark sides of the Force simultaneously, defeated scores of Sith and Mandalorians in battles, easily defeated a Dark Council member who defeated Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik simultaneously in a battle, cheated death, proved to be a challenge for some of the greatest Strike Teams ever assembled in battles, and motivated Vitiate to switch to Voices.

Revan is certainly comparable to Yoda and Luke Skywalker in accomplishments and hype.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Other way around I'm afraid, your next getting that this is a fictional universe and this is a fictional debate, out of universe things like PIS therefore not relevant, what happened happened. Those are the facts of this fictional universe. Your attempts to say what would "really" happen is just baseless assumptions.
I disagree. Thank you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They cannot just tank every Force power. They have limits.Tank =/= overcome. But it does equal a win.Blah blah blah. Try actually making a comparison, you've failed to engage with Luke or Yoda's feats at all.No doubt because PIS is central to many of your arguments for Vitiate.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tank =/= overcome. But it does equal a win.
What is your point?

That Luke Skywalker and Yoda will be not effected by Force powers of Vitiate?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Blah blah blah. Try actually making a comparison, you've failed to engage with Luke or Yoda's feats at all.
I have highlighted some accomplishments and official promotion of Revan that IMO make him a peer of Yoda and Luke Skywalker.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No doubt because PIS is central to many of your arguments for Vitiate.
I am highlighting the difference between PIS and fairness.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Key word: out of balance. The dark side being stronger than the light side represents imbalance, its unnatural. The dark and light are naturally equal.

And yes I believe you are misinterpreting. More effective in battle? Perhaps. But not more powerful. And even in battle, the destructive power of the dark will always meet its match with the defensive and cleansing powers of the light.

Even the most powerful dark side ability in mythos: the Force storm, was thwarted by a light side power, a Wall of Light.

Your also incorrect it assuming is sheer power that causes a Sith's body to decay, its not, its the corruptive aspect of the dark side. Ying and yang, the dark side is corruption and death the light side is the opposite, purity and life - and indeed where the dark side corrupts a Sith, powerful Jedi are often blessed with youth and longevity.

And I have plans to watch that video, but I expect I'll disagree. Not really. Lets look at what is actually said:

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?

Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

All Yoda says is the dark side is not stronger, he never says it is weaker. And he is correct, it is the quicker path to power, but that doesn't make it weaker, just easier to aquire. That said the Jedi are not the authority on the subject, they may believe that light side is stronger and there is a suggestion that they do. But that interpretation would be wrong, and Lucas has himself implied that the Jedi interpretation of the Force is incorrect.

Ok I can agree with that.

Yea I most likely am misinterpreting.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is your point?

That Luke Skywalker and Yoda will be not effected by Force powers of Vitiate?My point is they won't be beaten by them, they'll overcome them and win, is that so hard to understand?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Key word: out of balance. The dark side being stronger than the light side represents imbalance, its unnatural. The dark and light are naturally equal.

And yes I believe you are misinterpreting. More effective in battle? Perhaps. But not more powerful. And even in battle, the destructive power of the dark will always meet its match with the defensive and cleansing powers of the light.

Even the most powerful dark side ability in mythos: the Force storm, was thwarted by a light side power, a Wall of Light.

Your also incorrect it assuming is sheer power that causes a Sith's body to decay, its not, its the corruptive aspect of the dark side. Ying and yang, the dark side is corruption and death the light side is the opposite, purity and life - and indeed where the dark side corrupts a Sith, powerful Jedi are often blessed with youth and longevity.

And I have plans to watch that video, but I expect I'll disagree. Not really. Lets look at what is actually said:

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?

Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

All Yoda says is the dark side is not stronger, he never says it is weaker. And he is correct, it is the quicker path to power, but that doesn't make it weaker, just easier to aquire. That said the Jedi are not the authority on the subject, they may believe that light side is stronger and there is a suggestion that they do. But that interpretation would be wrong, and Lucas has himself implied that the Jedi interpretation of the Force is incorrect.

I know I said it's the power of the dark side that corrupts and disfigured you i said the sheer power of the dark side is what gives it its destructive potential.

To be fair the force storm itself wasn't disrupted by a wall of light, palaptines concentration was, and he lost control of the force storm. Also the dark side has more powerful abilities but I do agree they are and are supposed to be balanced.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
My point is they won't be beaten by them, they'll overcome them and win, is that so hard to understand?
I disagree! They aren't unstoppable.

Revan had defenses just like Yoda and Vitiate's powers wrecked him. Worse would have happened if T3-M4 had not interfered.

Force Drain powers, in particular, are a game-changer in most conflicts.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I disagree! They aren't unstoppable.

Neither is the Sith Emperor. A concept you just cannot accept.



Revan is not as powerful as Yoda as per canon. Vitiate has never displayed Drain mid-combat, and even if he did Yoda was Jedi Grand Master for hundreds of years, and likely studied Qel-Droma's holocron.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Neither is the Sith Emperor. A concept you just cannot accept.Essentially this.Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan had defenses just like Yoda and Vitiate's powers wrecked him.Which you've failed to prove.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Neither is the Sith Emperor. A concept you just cannot accept.
He is more powerful then any mortal. A concept you just cannot grasp.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Revan is not as powerful as Yoda as per canon.
So? The gap isn't significant between these two, if it is to be assumed.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Vitiate has never displayed Drain mid-combat,
He has utilized Force Drain in offensive manner on Yavin IV and Ziost. He have been able to drain any being ranging from mortals to spirits. Your point is moot.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
and even if he did Yoda was Jedi Grand Master for hundreds of years, and likely studied Qel-Droma's holocron.
Ulic Qel Droma's technique isn't a proper counter. Its effectiveness is limited.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Essentially this.
See above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which you've failed to prove.
Revan comfortably absorbed and deflected Force Lightning Storm of Darth Nyriss back at her which was potent enough to incinerate Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your assumptions are based on revelations in sources that are outdated in coverage of material and predate introduction of Vitiate to the mythos. These revelations are likely to be scrutinized in the light of latest developments. As I pointed out to you, Vitiate have superior showings then all other participants in this hypothetical contest. His showings have to be taken into consideration.

It makes no sense to use revelations of outdated sources to dictate rankings. If Vitiate had been shown to be inferior to the other participants, then your position would have weightage and we won't be having this argument.

Vitiate can devastate entire worlds and atomize living beings. Other participants do not match these showings with exception of Palpatine (DE). Though Vitiate fights differently then Palpatine. Luke Skywalker might be able to take on Palpatine in a duel but Vitiate can use his powers to disorient both Jedi and also drain them. Due to such pressures, the Jedi are unlikely to function in effective manner and are likely to perish. Nothing in my assertion is far-fetched and impossible to believe.


Genius, Force Drain works on everybody. It worked on even Abeloth. You have memory problems or you don't bother reading materials?

In addition, it is stated that Vitiate's telepathic powers can influence even the strongest of the Jedi. Is this too difficult for you to comprehend?

No, Vitiate doesn't needs rituals to perform his actions. He performed rituals to increase his understanding of the Dark Side, nothing else. Once he mastered a technique, their was no need for a ritual to perform it.

Revan was able to snap out of Vitiate's control due to actions of the Jedi High Council of his era. They erased his mind and this broke Vitiate's hold over Revan for good. Revan did try to suppress Vitiate's hold over him on his own but he was only able to lessen the influence and not break it fully, and this development took some time. So its not like that Luke Skywalker and Yoda can just shrug off Vitiate's telepathic powers. Even Lord Nyax was able to dominate Luke with his telepathic powers.

That is an assumption. Vitiate can do anything in his corporeal form.


Excuse me! Most of his feats are in the cut-scenes and also documented.

Check this blog: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/emperor-vitiate-respect-thread/97466/


Addressed above.

Vitiate is likely the strongest Force-user in this contest in fairness. Yoda is the weakest link in this contest.

Vitiate have superior showings then Palpatine. The latter only competes with command of the Force Storms (DE incarnation being considered).

We the see the best of Yoda in the PT era. His physical prime may make some difference but it won't be enormous.

1. I'm going to let you know something. Lucas always stays no matter what. Disney isn't changing anything like that, like who is the most powerful or someone's lightsaber color, they really could care less. Really vitiate is someone they pulled out of their a**. Vitiate may be powerful but he isn't Luke or Sidious level powerful. I still stand by that he is the weakest of the four as prime yoda can do a lot of things. For instance imagine everything he did in the clone wars movies and animated shows and the cannon movies and it's way more powerful. Vitiates lightning wouldn't help him agaisn't yoda at least it would overpower him. Also get it out of your mind that vitiate is the most powerful of all Star Wars or even these four. The ones beat his butt into the ground and then Sidious Luke Caedus, yoda, all people who fans would believe would beat vitiate.


2. All information counts especially if it's cannon. Cannon beat legends everytime. So outdated or not vitiate is legends while Sidious Luke and yoda are cannon, and Sidious is kmown as the most powerful SITH lord of all time by ROTS and the. Add legends the other are superior to vitiate.


3. So two can palaptine but yet he was beaten by Luke Skywalker. Dude I want the SITH to win two but they have the weak link as yoda can effectively match anything vitiate can throw or Luke can and definitely defeat depending on how the battles go. If it goes Luke vs Sidiosu and Yoda vs Vititae, Luke will help yoda once he defeats palaptine, but if it's the other way around where yoda fights Sidious it wil be a good fight but Sidious would come out the victor while Luke has thoroughly taken care of vitiate. And then Luke would defeat Sidious. So either way the Jedi win as they have the most powerful force weilders of all time.
Feats matter yes, but there have been beings who can unleash devastating power on different levels and they can still match and defeat them.


4. Didn't he need an entire 8000 SITH and weeks of preparation to drain a planet. If he could use it on anyone why didn't he use it on the hero of tython? He had plenty of time unless drain takes time in which vitiate does need. Also I find it hard to believe that force drain is unblockable, especially by people of Luke and Yodas level.


5. I'm going to let you know something. 1) Who is this statement said by? Is it someone form TOR era. If it is they didn't take into consideration any future SITH. Again didn't Revan get out of Vitiates control? Also if someone strong willed enough or incredibly powerful in mind barriers (Yoda and Luke and Sidious). Yoda out of his prime was able to withstand a SITH ritual form Sidious and Dooku, tow of the most powerful force weilders of all time. With Sidiosu being superior to vitiate. So with that vitiates power won't work on yoda, and Luke is more powerful than both Sidious and yoda and dooku so he can definitely defy vitiate.

6. Interesting. Yoda or like is no doubt more powerful than all of those council members combined or at least most and they also have their own power in the force so I don't see vitiate doing anything to them in terms of telepathy.

8. He can't do force storm.

9. Key word some. I didn't say all I said some. Learn to read.

10. No. He is not the strongest force weilders of the three. You are a fanboy who try's to put him onto power of everyone. Luke is stated by George Lucas and Disney has not made any announcement of that being changed or anything. Luke is the most powerful force weilder that there has or ever will be, that includes vitiate. Sidious is the most powerful SITH ever. No contradiction anywhere. Yoda is second to Luke and most likely not extremely far behind but not really that close either. So vitiate is definitely the weakes one here.


11. And the fact that he's stated as the most powerful SITH of all time by Lucas as of ROTS. He also has better lighting no doubt, and better TK. He also has a knowledge of all known SITH abilities as of ROTS. That knowledge only furthered when he killed off most of the Jedi and then took their holocrons or found other SITH teachings .

12. I refer you to the above statements. Yoda as of ROTS is capable of great feats. Again vitiates lightning won't get passed Yodas tutaminis, as he was able to hold ROTS Sidious back and redirect it, so,vitiates, and yoda being a little stronger in the force sense this is his prime, can defiantly hold vitiates and possibly push it back to where it fries vitiate or distracts him to where yoda could push him and collapse rocks on top of him.

As I pointed out to you, Vitiate have some of the best showings in the mythos. He have demonstrated power greater then that of any mortal.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
2. All information counts especially if it's cannon. Cannon beat legends everytime. So outdated or not vitiate is legends while Sidious Luke and yoda are cannon, and Sidious is kmown as the most powerful SITH lord of all time by ROTS and the. Add legends the other are superior to vitiate.
You still don't get it.

Vitiate have been introduced to the mythos years later then such promotions. Those promotions will be scrutinized on the basis of newer developments.

Darth Sidious, as of ROTS, have nothing on Vitiate.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
3. So two can palaptine but yet he was beaten by Luke Skywalker. Dude I want the SITH to win two but they have the weak link as yoda can effectively match anything vitiate can throw or Luke can and definitely defeat depending on how the battles go. If it goes Luke vs Sidiosu and Yoda vs Vititae, Luke will help yoda once he defeats palaptine, but if it's the other way around where yoda fights Sidious it wil be a good fight but Sidious would come out the victor while Luke has thoroughly taken care of vitiate. And then Luke would defeat Sidious. So either way the Jedi win as they have the most powerful force weilders of all time.
Feats matter yes, but there have been beings who can unleash devastating power on different levels and they can still match and defeat them.
Palpatine's ability to wield the Force have limitations. He haven't demonstrated the capability to utilize Force Drain and telepathic powers in offensive manner as effectively as Vitiate in combat situations and he needs time to conjure up a Force Storm which he won't easily get in a combat situation.

Vitiate is very effective in using the Force in offensive manner and even Strike Teams of powerful Force-users are unable to stop him. As an example:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4563787-0523714095-GSH6h.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4563794-4939691795-IVIHc.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4563796-7186109152-6fSC2.gif

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
4. Didn't he need an entire 8000 SITH and weeks of preparation to drain a planet.
This was long ago. Vitiate continued to grow in power with passage of time. You need to read this blog: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/power-progression-and-evolution-of-emperor-vitiate/105016/

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If he could use it on anyone why didn't he use it on the hero of tython? He had plenty of time unless drain takes time in which vitiate does need. Also I find it hard to believe that force drain is unblockable, especially by people of Luke and Yodas level.
This is a matter of decision-making. Vitiate decided to possess Hero of Tython and use him against the Republic. This worked until the spirit of Master Orgus Din interfered and broke his telepathic hold over the Jedi in question.

Vitiate is able to drain any being, from living individuals to spirits. And Force Drain powers materialize swiftly.

Force Drain powers cannot be effectively countered using conventional techniques.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
5. I'm going to let you know something. 1) Who is this statement said by? Is it someone form TOR era. If it is they didn't take into consideration any future SITH.
What statement?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Again didn't Revan get out of Vitiates control?
Not by himself.

The mindwipe performed on him by the Jedi High Council of his era, did the deed.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Also if someone strong willed enough or incredibly powerful in mind barriers (Yoda and Luke and Sidious). Yoda out of his prime was able to withstand a SITH ritual form Sidious and Dooku, tow of the most powerful force weilders of all time. With Sidiosu being superior to vitiate. So with that vitiates power won't work on yoda, and Luke is more powerful than both Sidious and yoda and dooku so he can definitely defy vitiate.
None of them are impossible to subjugate. As I pointed out to you earlier, Lord Nyax would have dominated Luke with his telepathic powers if they had fought .

Sidious being superior to Vitiate is a FANON assumption based on outdated revelations.

If telepathic powers can work on Luke, they can work on Yoda as well. And Vitiate can break even the strongest Jedi:

The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)."

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
6. Interesting. Yoda or like is no doubt more powerful than all of those council members combined or at least most and they also have their own power in the force so I don't see vitiate doing anything to them in terms of telepathy.
?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
8. He can't do force storm.
He can do anything.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
9. Key word some. I didn't say all I said some. Learn to read.
I have told you that Vitiate performed rituals to hone his talents in the dark side and explore it further.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
10. No. He is not the strongest force weilders of the three. You are a fanboy who try's to put him onto power of everyone. Luke is stated by George Lucas and Disney has not made any announcement of that being changed or anything. Luke is the most powerful force weilder that there has or ever will be, that includes vitiate. Sidious is the most powerful SITH ever. No contradiction anywhere. Yoda is second to Luke and most likely not extremely far behind but not really that close either. So vitiate is definitely the weakes one here.
I am being realistic. Vitiate have the best feats among all mentioned in this thread.

Luke isn't the most powerful Force-user and no source have stated as such. Your assumption is baseless.

Sidious's promotion as the most powerful Sith are in outdated sources that do not cover Vitiate.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
11. And the fact that he's stated as the most powerful SITH of all time by Lucas as of ROTS.
Addressed this nonsense above.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He also has better lighting no doubt, and better TK.
Really?

Vitiate overwhelmed lightsaber-augmented defenses of some of the strongest Jedi of the Order with Force Lightning:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11113/111138626/4544926-2216048301-15gru.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11113/111138626/4544929-6740601639-dhfga.png

Keep in mind that Vitiate wasn't trying to kill these Jedi.

---

Vitiate also wrecked Revan with Force Lightning and would have reduced the Jedi in question to ash if T3-M4 had not interfered.

Keep in mind that Revan was extremely proficient in defensive aspects of the Force.

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.

Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.

"I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

---

Vitiate also have fantastic telekinetic showings. He sent Revan packing across the hall without a gesture, utterly disintegrated T3-M4 without a gesture (a droid that wasn't damaged by falling down the stairs and crashing into a wall), halted lightsaber strike of Lord Scourge mid-air without a gesture, and collapsed a section of the Dark Temple without physical presence.

And also this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4545452-2202876575-fVnT0.gif

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He also has a knowledge of all known SITH abilities as of ROTS.
Based on?

For comparison:

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
That knowledge only furthered when he killed off most of the Jedi and then took their holocrons or found other SITH teachings .
Good for him.

Quote?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
12. I refer you to the above statements. Yoda as of ROTS is capable of great feats. Again vitiates lightning won't get passed Yodas tutaminis, as he was able to hold ROTS Sidious back and redirect it, so,vitiates, and yoda being a little stronger in the force sense this is his prime, can defiantly hold vitiates and possibly push it back to where it fries vitiate or distracts him to where yoda could push him and collapse rocks on top of him.
Vitiate have much superior showings then Yoda.

Revan, being extremely proficient in defensive aspects of the Force, could not handle Vitiate's Force Lightning. Yoda doesn't have much hope either and he was utterly exhausted by deflecting Sidious's Force Lightning.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote?
You need to quote to understand that?

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

What do you think would have happened if T3-M4 had not interfered? Revan would have perished, burned to ash or worse.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to quote to understand that?

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

What do you think would have happened if T3-M4 had not interfered? Revan would have perished, burned to ash or worse.
Nothing said, or suggested, Revan being burned literally to ash.
He would have eventually been killed, yeah, but not to the degree you claim.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He is more powerful then any mortal. A concept you just cannot grasp.




No he's not as per multiple canon statements. Also you said he can defeat the Daughter, so you think he's more powerful than immortals. Which is ridiculous.

At any rate, minority opinions aside, Luke and Yoda have the majority vote and win.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate have much superior showings then Yoda.

Revan, being extremely proficient in defensive aspects of the Force, could not handle Vitiate's Force Lightning. Yoda doesn't have much hope either and he was utterly exhausted by deflecting Sidious's Force Lightning.

Dolly has more superior showings than yoda yet yoda is greater than Dooku.

Yoda can handle vitiates lightning based on how he could take and redirect Sidious out of his prime. And your point is? He just went through a lenghth lightsbaers duel and spent enough to time jumping from Pod pod so him bis get able to do that while exhausted is pretty impressive.
So if it's a lightning vs tutaminis battle yoda wins the majority.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No he's not as per multiple canon statements.
Vitiate is regarded as the most powerful Force-user, significantly greater then any other Force-user in power, almost god-like being, living embodiment of the Dark Side of the Force, Dark Side incarnate, having blinding power, and having immeasurable power.

------

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)."

-----

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

-----

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

-----

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia)

-----

Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

-----

The pyramid's base represents the masses; the peak, rising to the point and seeming to pierce Korriban's harsh sun, embodies the blinding power of the Emperor.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

-----

"The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor."

From (Emperor's Wrath II, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)

-----

"The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance."

From (Emperor's Wrath II, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)

-----

"...The Emperor will prove far too powerful for Revan, or anyone else."

From (Darth Marr, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)

-----

Enduring and merciless and quite possibly unkillable, Monoliths plainly illustrate the immeasurable power of their creator and are best avoided at all costs.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)

-----

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy."

From (Darth Marr, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)

------

The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

------

He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Also you said he can defeat the Daughter, so you think he's more powerful than immortals. Which is ridiculous.
Vitiate have comparable hype and superior showings. What is ridiculous is that the hype of The Ones is taken at face value but others are supposed to have feats to justify their hype.

The Ones are not immortal. The Father was dying as an example. The Ones can live a lot longer then mortals though.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Dolly has more superior showings than yoda yet yoda is greater than Dooku.
Being greater then Count Dooku makes Yoda superior to Vitiate? Count Dooku is a joke in comparison to Vitiate.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yoda can handle vitiates lightning based on how he could take and redirect Sidious out of his prime.
Here is a comparison FYI:

Yoda found it difficult to absorb and deflect Force Lightning of Count Dooku:

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned-but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."

"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered. "Even you, my old Master!"

More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.

"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.

Taken from (Star Wars: Attack of the Clones: Novelization)

In comparison, Revan easily absorbed and deflected a more potent expression of Force Lightning from a Dark Council member:

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.

Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.

"I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

As I pointed out to you, Revan is extremely proficient in defensive aspects of the Force. More-so then even Yoda.

---

Yoda got knocked out by a blast of Force Lightning from Darth Sidious earlier in their duel. Did you forget?

Yoda lost his Lightsaber to another blast of Force Lightning from Sidious and deflecting it proved exhausting for the Jedi.

---

Vitiate will eat Yoda alive.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
And your point is? He just went through a lenghth lightsbaers duel and spent enough to time jumping from Pod pod so him bis get able to do that while exhausted is pretty impressive.
So if it's a lightning vs tutaminis battle yoda wins the majority.
See above.

As per OP all of them are in their physical prime so prime!Yoda is even more powerful than his RotS incarnation. I also assume this is DE!Sidious.

Yoda vs. Vitiate. Well, Yoda is just better at everything concerning a fight. He's faster, much more agile, vastly superior in close combat and can take everything Vitiate throwns at him via TK or FL.

Luke vs. Sidious is also a spectacular fight, with Luke holding an edge.

In short: Luke > DE Sidious > Prime!Yoda > Vitiate

All in all, the Jedi team wins this.

"Yoda is just better at everything concerning a fight".... What a joke this guy is.

Yoda's combat record:-

Vs. Ventress = Victory
Vs. Count Dooku = No outcome
Vs. Darth Sidious = Failure

Such a fantastic combat record it is.

"can take verything Vitiate throwns at him via TK or FL".... This is bad for even a joke.

TK and FL are not defensive abilities. Somebody needs to learn the basics of Star Wars.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I have not read so much nonsense in a while.


You don't keep a journal?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
"Yoda is just better at everything concerning a fight".... What a joke this guy is.

Yoda's combat record:-

Vs. Ventress = Victory
Vs. Count Dooku = No outcome
Vs. Darth Sidious = Failure

Such a fantastic combat record it is.

"can take verything Vitiate throwns at him via TK or FL".... This is bad for even a joke.

TK and FL are not defensive abilities. Somebody needs to learn the basics of Star Wars.

Vitiate's combat record is so much better though:

Revan and Malak = Win
Revans team = Inconclusive, Scourge betrays
Hero of Tython = Lose
Tol Braga team = Win
Hero of Tython = Lose, killed
Swtor Protag = Lose (repeatedly in possessed bodies)

Yoda forced Dooku to retreat, shouldn't be labeled as "no outcome".

Twice.

+ He's defeated Mace
+ He pwned Plo, Depa, and Saesee

Originally posted by Nephthys


Revan and Malak = Win
Revans team = Inconclusive, Scourge betrays
Hero of Tython = Lose
Tol Braga team = Win
Hero of Tython = Lose, killed
Swtor Protag = Lose (repeatedly in possessed bodies)

LOL what? Are you talking about Kira?

Also, he technically never lost while fighting at full capacity. He was extremely weakened when he got killed and Revan + friends fight is inconclusive but he did pwn Revan there and after Scourge witnessed Vitiate's power, he strongly believed that they would still lose if he hadn't betrayed them.

And him losing to protag again does not represent his full power.

He's talking about Vitiate's fights, as in he lost when he fought the HoT one on one, regardless of circumstances. It's a record, not a cut-and-dry determination of power.

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL what? Are you talking about Kira?

Also, he technically never lost while fighting at full capacity. He was extremely weakened when he got killed and Revan + friends fight is inconclusive but he did pwn Revan there and after Scourge witnessed Vitiate's power, he strongly believed that they would still lose if he hadn't betrayed them.

And him losing to protag again does not represent his full power.

Gosh, it's almost as if a list of wins and losses doesn't actually demonstrate an accurate depiction of ability or something.

I had to say something.

I'm not sure why we talk about track records of ALL the fights tbh / shrug.

All I said in my previous post that Yoda is vastly superior to Vitiate in close combat, not that he has better track record of all the fights he participated in.

Regardless, the proof enough is that Yoda was able to pretty much stalemate Sidious is close combat, a Sith Lord that is faster, more agile, and more skilled than Viti. As is Yoda, of course. And Yoda in this thread is Prime!Yoda so better than his RotS incarnation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate's combat record is so much better though:

Revan and Malak = Win
Revans team = Inconclusive, Scourge betrays
Hero of Tython = Lose
Tol Braga team = Win
Hero of Tython = Lose, killed
Swtor Protag = Lose (repeatedly in possessed bodies)
Below is an updated/corrected list.

Vs. Lord Dramath = Win
Vs. Sith Strike Team led by Darth Lokess = Win
Vs. Revan and Malak = Win
Vs. Revan = Win
Vs. Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga = Win

Vitiate's loss to Hero of Tython is a circumstantial development; Vitiate's effectiveness was compromised by disruption of his ritual.

On planet Ziost, Vitiate forced the Protags to retreat from the planet, it was his victory. Loss of some possessed hosts to the protags made no difference. These possessed hosts were not proper avatars like a Voice.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Yoda forced Dooku to retreat, shouldn't be labeled as "no outcome".


And calling Yoda vs Ventress a simple "victory" for him, is criminally understating how easily he overpowered her. There in fact was no fight between them.


Also his "failure" against Darth Sidious was really a stalemate. But a stalemate in that scenario meant Yoda failed.

Also, Drawing Sidious by one's self is no mean feat, considering he just pwned 3 other guys in less then a minute and then pulled a wounded gazelle gambit on the last.

Originally posted by carthage
Luke has struggled with Lumiya, Welk, Lomi Plo i,e duelists he should logically annihilate. Sidious has beaten Yoda who is above Caedus in just about everything barring esoteric abilities, they're close but Sidious is canonically better than Caedus. He's also beaten Luke before as well so that helps imo

Please link me to the different version of the movie than I have where Sidious beats Yoda. The version I saw was either a stalemate or Yoda looking slightly superior. Do you have some Sids apologist version of that movie that removes him losing to Mace and beating Yoda?

BTW... Look is NJO is superior to Sids in virtually every way imaginable. It's almost to the point of a non fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Please link me to the different version of the movie than I have where Sidious beats Yoda. The version I saw was either a stalemate or Yoda looking slightly superior. Do you have some Sids apologist version of that movie that removes him losing to Mace and beating Yoda?

BTW... Look is NJO is superior to Sids in virtually every way imaginable. It's almost to the point of a non fight.

The only reason would look better is because the terrain they were in was against Sidious. Yoda is smaller and this had more room for his movements while Sidious was hampered. So really it's no real way to say who is better as per the movies they looked pretty even in almost every way.

I'm okay with even, but in no way did Sids win that fight. If anything yoda looked the superior of the two. I'm fine with a stalemate, but I just wanted to see the Sids apologist copy this guy had of the movie

In RotS it was a stalemate in a fight, and a failure for Yoda because he did not accomplish his mission (to kill Sids). That's it really.

Regardless, Prime!Yoda is better than his RotS self.

Originally posted by Stigma
In RotS it was a stalemate in a fight, and a failure for Yoda because he did not accomplish his mission (to kill Sids). That's it really.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
The only reason would look better is because the terrain they were in was against Sidious. Yoda is smaller and this had more room for his movements while Sidious was hampered. So really it's no real way to say who is better as per the movies they looked pretty even in almost every way.

Actually, the canonical guides and source material put Sidious > Yoda.

Huh?

Originally posted by psmith81992
Huh?

The new guides put Sidious > Yoda.

WHERE

lol @ caps lock

The newly-released Ultimate Guide.

Though Yoda is a tough combatant, the Emperor uses his Sith powers to release lightning bolts and hurl floating platforms at his foe. Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Though Yoda is a tough combatant, the Emperor uses his Sith powers to release lightning bolts and hurl floating platforms at his foe. Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa

Wow that's pretty cool.

How does this overwrite the movie exactly? And being "too much for Yoda" doesn't mean he's more powerful.

Interesting. And what do you suggest it means?

It means that the battle was too much for him. They could be equals, Sidious could gain the upper hand, etc. Basically, what you saw in the movie. When Yoda fell off the platform "circumstances", the battle WAS too much for him.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

The battle was too much for Yoda given that the person he was waging it with was Sidious. Even if that weren't true, the fight put up by Yoda wasn't too much for Sidious, so this is besides the point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

In last year's NBA finals, Kawhi Leonard proved too much for Lebron James. Using your liberal interpretation (confirmation bias), Kawi Leonard is superior to Lebron James.

Hmm.. was Kawhi Leonard overwhelming Lebron with his lightning and superior TK as well?

Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm.. was Kawhi Leonard overwhelming Lebron with his lightning and superior TK as well?

He was overwhelming him with his skill. He outplayed him for 5 games. Once again, your liberal interpretation allows for Leonard>Lebron arguments.

'confirmation bias'

Beefy, you have no less of an established 'agenda' on this subject than anyone else here. Calm down.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I seem to be very calm. Normally when you tell others to calm down, you're projecting. And seeing as how I care little about Sidious compared to Yoda, and even less about Yoda, you don't really have a point

Originally posted by psmith81992
I seem to be very calm. Normally when you tell others to calm down, you're projecting. And seeing as how I care little about Sidious compared to Yoda, and even less about Yoda, you don't really have a point

Beefy, calm down. Sheev is important enough to you to be a frequent topic of conversation for years and years in a number of debates and arguments with a wide number of other people.

mhm. My point stands

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Beefy, calm down.

Originally posted by psmith81992
He was overwhelming him with his skill. He outplayed him for 5 games. Once again, your liberal interpretation allows for Leonard>Lebron arguments.

Except in sports, individuals' performances can vary a lot more than it does in SW Universe(unless there are circumstantial dynamics going on) and Sidious has better feats than Yoda so its not really surprising to see him lose where in your example, Lebron's inferiority was surprising(assuming thats the case cause I don't watch that stuff) which is why your example is irrelevant.

They battled, they were close in both power and skill and one side ended up being on the winning side of that stalemate which is quite natural since he was on the offensive throughout the whole force interchange even though Yoda is the one who came to him to kill him. Your lame comparison of the fight to NBA doesn't really refute any arguments here.

Originally posted by psmith81992
mhm. My point stands

Not really, no.

My example is relevant considering both Yoda and Lebron losing was more due to circumstances than being overwhelmed by a superior opponent.


Calling my comparison "lame" without even attempting to point out how it's "lame" (it's ok we know you can't), makes you look quite biased. Move along and let Gideon handle this.

Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm.. was Kawhi Leonard overwhelming Lebron with his lightning and superior TK as well?
Damn, the one time to miss a game.

LOL

I wouldn't say Kawhi Leonard "outplayed" or "overmatched" Lebron James, persay. If you look at the stats from that finals series, Lebron's were infinitely superior. The difference is that Kawhi made Lebron work for it enough so that the latter's help was completely and utterly insufficient, whereas the slick ball movement of the Spurs and their own star power of Duncan/Parker was too much.

Their stats were nearly identical while Leonard was more efficient. And yes the Spurs annihilated Miami.

I'd be inclined to disagree. Leonard was slightly more efficient, but Lebron's volume was vastly superior.

Kawhi Leonard's NBA Finals Stats:

17.8 points (61% FG)
6.4 rebounds
2.0 assists
1.6 steals
1.2 blocks

Lebron James NBA Finals Stats

28.2 points (57% FG)
7.8 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
0.4 blocks

Tim Duncan and Tony Parker utterly outshined D Wade and Bosh, though.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'd be inclined to disagree. Leonard was slightly more efficient, but Lebron's volume was vastly superior.

Kawhi Leonard's NBA Finals Stats:

17.8 points (61% FG)
6.4 rebounds
2.0 assists
1.6 steals
1.2 blocks

Lebron James NBA Finals Stats

28.2 points (57% FG)
7.8 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
0.4 blocks

Tim Duncan and Tony Parker utterly outshined D Wade and Bosh, though.

You forgot plus/minus, usage rate, and minutes played.

Originally posted by psmith81992
You forgot plus/minus, usage rate, and minutes played.

True enough, though to be fair advanced stats and scaled stats (such as per 36 minutes stats) can be inconsistent and misleading. Kobe's advanced stats such as PER/Win Shares are relatively pathetic compared to the likes of Lebron or Jordan, but that doesn't necessarily tell the entire story or mean that Kobe is literally pathetic compared to them. Similarly, scaling up Kawhi's minutes/usage wouldn't necessarily put him on even ground with Lebron volume wise. And considering the circumstances (Kawhi had Duncan/Parker/Ginobili to lean on, all of whom had a higher usage rate than Kawhi, and the fact that Lebron had no help other than an ailing Dwayne Wade who had the second highest usage rate of anyone in the series, yet was only averaging 15 pts on 43% shooting,) I'd say Lebron outplayed Kawhi Leonard.

It's been well documented that any copycats of baseball's WAR and other all in one metrics in basketball are heavily flawed based on defensive deficiencies in the numbers.

However to suggest per 36 metrics are "inconsistent and misleading" is entirely wrong given a proper sample size.

This is true.


It shows how pathetically inefficient Kobe is compared to them.


That doesn't work because it was essentially the same Miami team from the year before. The only difference was San Antonio vengeance.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The battle was too much for Yoda given that the person he was waging it with was Sidious. Even if that weren't true, the fight put up by Yoda wasn't too much for Sidious, so this is besides the point. Sidious vs Yoda was decided purely by Sidious grabbing on and Yoda for whatever reason not being flung hundreds of feet when he weighs as much as a cat, but still falling.

It's not really the best comparison to use. For all intents and purposes the battle was even until Yoda fell and hit everything on the way down.

Not saying one is superior to the other but Yoda smashing into everything wasn't exactly Sidious' doing. Had the battle been waged not on a relatively tiny platform really high in the air would Yoda have run away? If Yoda was able to grab onto a handle instead of clawing on the side of a smooth incline would he have ran away? If Sidious missed that sick grab and been the one who fell and smashed into everything would that have shown Yoda was more powerful?

It's like saying Jango was too much for Obi Wan because he made him fall, and therefore was more powerful.

It was purely the battlefield that caused the "win". This shit happens a lot in Star Wars and people get hurt by outside forces.

I've no idea which one of you is right but psmith here is my point:

Lebron has already been acknowledged as the superior player so him being outplayed is a surprising outcome which doesn't prove that he is inferior to his rival because he had to chance to prove himself as the better player time and time again where in Yoda vs Sidious, that is not the case at all. Sidious and Yoda are clearly very close in power and skill but Sidious has better feats and even though he was supposed to be defending during that fight, he managed to push Yoda back and remain as the offensive side. And so your example is lame and irrelevant.

Originally posted by Based
However to suggest per 36 metrics are "inconsistent and misleading" is entirely wrong given a proper sample size.

"Given a proper sample size," hence the potential for inconsistency. That said, even if we directly scale Kawhi Leonard's raw numbers per 36 minutes (not factoring in other potential circumstances, mind you,) they're still inferior to Lebron's.

Little child, the point appears to be far above you. Nothing you said leads to the conclusion that my example is "lame and irrelevant". Who cares about Sidious having more feats? The point of contention was Sidious' superior based on the wording. You're wasting everyone's time by typing.


Don't think so for 2014 playoffs at least.

Originally posted by psmith81992
It shows how pathetically inefficient Kobe is compared to them.


That doesn't work because it was essentially the same Miami team from the year before. The only difference was San Antonio vengeance.

It also shows how "pathetically" insignificant Kobe is to a team compared to the likes of even James Harden, Kevin Durant, or Stephen Curry (win shares.)

The players were the same, not the quality of play. Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh literally disappeared, and Lebron was all that's left. It was almost reminiscent of the 2007 finals, tbh.

Is anyone besides Legend seriously arguing in favor of the Sith?

Also both Yoda and Palpatine seemed to get pushed back about the same amount. Problem is Yoda was on the edge and Sidious got thrown to the other side.

If the positions were reversed Yoda would have shown wicked handskills in the grab and Palpatine would have fell. The ending really shows nothing, and the "battle being too much" while true doesn't indicate being inferior. Because the battle includes everything that happened. Had the words been "Sidious was too much", there'd be more merit in it. As is, it tells us no new information we didn't already know.

I don't think they disappeared as much as what the Spurs did. It was literally the best brand of basketball I've ever seen and that includes Jordan's bulls.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Little child, the point appears to be far above you. Nothing you said leads to the conclusion that my example is "lame and irrelevant". Who cares about Sidious having more feats? The point of contention was Sidious' superior based on the wording. You're wasting everyone's time by typing.


LOL no,you're using a basketball game as an example but it is not the same as a SW duel. They've different realities and so being outplayed for a few times is not as significant as being outdueled in a SW duel.



@Branlor Swift, I can easily say that the environment prevented Sidious from using Yoda's size disadvantage against him and that wouldn't be the case if they dueled in an open field. And even though the lightning clash was a stalemate, Sidious had the upper hand in TK.

Btw, I remember a quote saying Sidious bested him in that fight. Isn't that a more clear statement of superiority of Sidious?

No. I'm using the wording and your interpretation in a similar context. It doesn't have to be star wars and lightsabers and "pew pew" for it to work.

Originally posted by Sinious
@Branlor Swift, I can easily say that the environment prevented Sidious from using Yoda's size disadvantage against him and that wouldn't be the case if they dueled in an open field. And even though the lightning clash was a stalemate, Sidious had the upper hand in TK.

Btw, I remember a quote saying Sidious bested him in that fight. Isn't that a more clear statement of superiority for Sidious? When has Yoda's size been a disadvantage for him and when has Sidious' size been an advantage for him? If we're going entirely by assumptions then that opens the doors for all sorts of made up fantasy shit. The fact remains that neither showed anything that would garner favor over the other in a featureless environment. If all we're going on is facts, then you'd have to conclude a stalemate based entirely on that fight in a featureless environment. Nothing more, nothing less.

Which you would be using the pods to say he had the advantage? Nevermind the fact that Yoda didn't try to whip pods, but he actually stopped one backed by Sidious' might and threw it back at him where Sidious didn't even try to stop it.
I'd like to think stopping an object cold that was backed by Sidious' power is a better feat than merely picking it up and throwing it. Though I'm not saying it proves better tk, but both showings in that regard were tip top in that fight.

It depends entirely on the wording. Nothing we saw in that fight showed superiority. If anything it portrayed two exact equals.

I'm not denying Sidious won or "bested" him, but that was less a case of Sidious' raw power advantage and more a case of bad placement by Yoda. Hell the backlash alone should prove how close they were.

Maybe Sidious' stamina would prevail in an extended fight, but we can't conclude that by what we saw. An unfortunate fall ended a fight early, like falls are want to do in Star Wars. Basically you have to look through other feats to try and pit one over the other, because that fight did anything but show a stronger combatant.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I don't think they disappeared as much as what the Spurs did. It was literally the best brand of basketball I've ever seen and that includes Jordan's bulls.

Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh both averaged around 14-15 pts per game on low fg%, and Wade had a 27.5% usage rate. Their quality of play diminished significantly from the 2013 title year, where Wade had a couple of 30 point explosions.

The brand in and of itself is perhaps the most effective method ever, but I'd take the 1996 bulls over any squad in history with potential exceptions such as peak russell/peak bird celtics, peak magic lakers, and peak wilt sixers.

Originally posted by psmith81992
No. I'm using the wording and your interpretation in a similar context. It doesn't have to be star wars and lightsabers and "pew pew" for it to work.

And I'm telling you that my interpretation of the wording varies mostly cause the function of the context changes with your example.


And again, I'm pretty sure there is a quote that says Sidious bested him so I'm not sure why Tempest felt the need to bring up this quote in the first place.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
When has Yoda's size been a disadvantage for him and when has Sidious' size been an advantage for him? If we're going entirely by assumptions then that opens the doors for all sorts of made up fantasy shit. The fact remains that neither showed anything that would garner favor over the other in a featureless environment. If all we're going on is facts, then you'd have to conclude a stalemate based entirely on that fight in a featureless environment. Nothing more, nothing less.

Which you would be using the pods to say he had the advantage? Nevermind the fact that Yoda didn't try to whip pods, but he actually stopped one backed by Sidious' might and threw it back at him where Sidious didn't even try to stop it.
I'd like to think stopping an object cold that was backed by Sidious' power is a better feat than merely picking it up and throwing it. Though I'm not saying it proves better tk, but both showings in that regard were tip top in that fight.

It depends entirely on the wording. Nothing we saw in that fight showed superiority. If anything it portrayed two exact equals.

I'm not denying Sidious won or "bested" him, but that was less a case of Sidious' raw power advantage and more a case of bad placement by Yoda. Hell the backlash alone should prove how close they were.

Maybe Sidious' stamina would prevail in an extended fight, but we can't conclude that by what we saw. An unfortunate fall ended a fight early, like falls are want to do in Star Wars. Basically you have to look through other feats to try and pit one over the other, because that fight did anything but show a stronger combatant.

Yoda never faced a duelist as skilled and fast as Sidious. Yoda's style of dueling is a very exhausting one. He(thanks to the Chancellor's podium) was on a higher ground than he normally would have been and so he didn't have to jump as high as he normally has to to match his opponents saber. This wouldn't be the case on neutral ground.

How did Sidious gain the upper hand and forced Yoda in to dodging the pods he was sending in the first place if he isn't more capable?

Again, if you can undervalue Sidious' victory in the force by blaming the circumstances, I can do the same to undervalue Yoda's victory in sabers.

I'm not saying the fight showed a clear superior combatant but that Sidious performed better and that he was on the winning side of that stalemate. 2 different combatants can never be exact equals(other than unique cases like the Son and Daughter). The fight as you said ended prematurely and how it would end if it lasted until one of them died is not clear in the movies. The material we have in the EU should be taken seriously as long as it doesn't contradict with the movies. And since its stated that Sidious bested him and that Sidious was too much for him + Sidious' superior feats, I believe its fair to declare him the superior combatant but admittedly, they're extremely close in pretty much everything.

There's your problem.


Well no you misunderstand. Jordan's Bulls (all 6 teams) are all pretty much in the top 15 in everything and the 96 team is the greatest ever assembled. I'm just saying in the 2014 NBA finals, I've never seen a team play better.

Originally posted by psmith81992
There's your problem.

I'll find it when I can.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Well no you misunderstand. Jordan's Bulls (all 6 teams) are all pretty much in the top 15 in everything and the 96 team is the greatest ever assembled. I'm just saying in the 2014 NBA finals, I've never seen a team play better.

Ah, understood and agreed with then. Though as a team I'd imagine Russell's best finals squad/performance would be a contender.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yoda never faced a duelist as skilled and fast as Sidious. Yoda's style of dueling is a very exhausting one. He(thanks to the Chancellor's podium) was on a higher ground than he normally would have been and so he didn't have to jump as high as he normally has to to match his opponents saber. This wouldn't be the case on neutral ground.

How did Sidious gain the upper hand and forced Yoda in to dodging the pods he was sending in the first place if he isn't more capable?

Again, if you can undervalue Sidious' victory in the force by blaming the circumstances, I can do the same to undervalue Yoda's victory in sabers.

I'm not saying the fight showed a clear superior combatant but that Sidious performed better and that he was on the winning side of that stalemate. 2 different combatants can never be exact equals(other than unique cases like the Son and Daughter). The fight as you said ended prematurely and how it would end if it lasted until one of them died is not clear in the movies. The material we have in the EU should be taken seriously as long as it doesn't contradict with the movies. And since its stated that Sidious bested him and that Sidious was too much for him + Sidious' superior feats, I believe its fair to declare him the superior combatant but admittedly, they're extremely close in pretty much everything. Your logic works the exact same in reverse.
And that's assuming we're under the pretense that Yoda doesn't train with any other Jedis of course.
It was two people without tricks being equals. That's it.

Also the jumping around has never been shown to be an issue in battle. Sure you can assume in the long run it'd be an issue but Yoda simply not jumping higher doesn't change the entire course of a fight. You're reaching severely.
You might as well say Yoda would have an easier time cutting off his feet in a featureless environment. He was at a feet severing disadvantage you see.

Because that's the way battles go. People use the force and sometimes they don't. Sidious used the force and Yoda dodged until he used the force and forced Sidious to dodge. It's not anything special to be the only one using the force. Both of them showed immense tk in that scene with examples being different yet both impressive. Sidious with how easy it was to throw them, and Yoda with his stopping a Sidious propelled pod cold and spinning it and throwing it back.
Maybe Yoda realized he wasn't going to get close if he didn't directly put a stop to it? Which seems like the reason.

But you can't do the same, that's the issue. You're going by some made up excuses, and I'm using what was shown in the actual scene. If you think "Yoda didn't have to jump as high" is the same as "both were pushed back about the same but Yoda was at the edge and Sidious had like 10 feet of land" then I don't know what to say.
Do you disagree that both were pushed back a ways and Yoda was at the edge or something? Do you disagree that had they been in reversed positions that Sidious would have fell based on how far he was pushed back or something? Because if you do, then you're merely covering your ears and saying you don't like it. There's absolutely no reason again based on the amount both flew that the one closest to the edge wasn't going on a huge drop. Which is my point. I'm not undervaluing Palpatine, I'm simply applying logic to what happened. If the positions were reversed and Palpatine ran away because he smashed into hard objects and seemed to hurt himself in the process then Yoda would have "bested" him and I'd be making the same argument on Palpatine's behalf. It's not rocket appliances. I have no dog in this race, I'm simply trying to portray it in a way that makes sense to you.

And Sidious only came out on the winning side because of a fall. Like I said, it'd be like saying Jango is more powerful than Obi Wan. Different circumstances but same result.

I'm not going by EU though. I'm simply going by the fight. Though EU is exactly what I said would be a better place to look.

But looking at the fight and assuming Sidious straight up bested him doesn't work considering if we assume the quote is real then Sidious only bested him because of Yoda's placement. If we look at the fight we can see that they were equals. The whole "never true equals" is semantics.

Sabers: No advantage for either. Both performed exceptional.
Force: Sidious threw tons of force pods while Yoda was able to stop one of his and throw it back which is more impressive than picking up a static object and throwing it. However Sidious' volume compensates for that. This is really just a push.
And then we have them both using the force in a backlash that propelled both equal distances. The X factor was placement.

If they weren't exact equals they were about the closest we're ever going to see outside the Ones.

However, I'm not sure I'm of the opinion that EU feats would prevail outside DE. We saw in direct combat that for Sidious' better feats it gained him no leverage. Why should we assume that looking at his history as a whole would gain leverage when it didn't in a direct showdown?

What would be of better use would be to go by something you touched on earlier and I did as well. Stamina.
If we go by unlimited power of Sidious then he would win in an extended fight as sooner or later Yoda would start slowing down. Which although they stalemated definitively IMO, Sidious has more reserves and that should net him the win over an equal. That doesn't mean he's more powerful, but it means he should win.

The fight might have ended early but I've no allusions that if it lasted as long as Anakin vs Obi Wan did that Yoda would start to falter.

The possible "bested" comments existing and "the battle being too much" don't actually touch on the circumstances and don't paint a real picture. However Sidious' power reserves and the fact that he was equal with Yoda point you in a much better direction. It's not always about blindly accepting whatever's stated. Sometimes you have to apply some thought to it is what my point is.

Is all.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
"Given a proper sample size," hence the potential for inconsistency. That said, even if we directly scale Kawhi Leonard's raw numbers per 36 minutes (not factoring in other potential circumstances, mind you,) they're still inferior to Lebron's.

Oh. Yeah, you're right about the Kawhi stuff but I thought you were using per 36 to also say that Kobe's numbers do him an injustice.

@Branlor Swift,

Damn that is a long reply. I'll respond as soon as I can.

I usually keep them shorter when I have my phone. In any case I'll switch to my laptop in a reply.

But anyway Yoda vs Palpatine is basically Frieza vs Goku. One simply has more stamina. But that doesn't mean there's a power difference before hand is what I'm saying.

And I disagree heavily with "battle was too much" and "bested" being indicators to decide Sidious was more powerful when we were shown everything but that. Just another prematurely ended duel. You either have to go with EU feats and ignore the duel or try and mish mash them in a way that says Sidious was holding back, to get Sidious being noticably above. Imo

To sum it up.

Onto this battle. This depends entirely whether or not Luke can beat Vitiate if Yoda fights Sidious (perpetual stalemate for quite a while). Or if we place Luke vs Sidious and Yoda vs Vitiate.
It's not really decided by a team format unless they switch off in duels. Someone needs to come out on top to help the other.

More to the point, equals can have winners and losers. Yoda and Sidious are 5/10. The actual fight that happened in ROTS happened to be one of Sidious' 5.

More to the point of his battle, however, is that Sidious gets more out of Dark Empire then Yoda gets out of being 200 years younger.

Irrespective of what the guide says, I think if you look closely at the duel (and the script), Yoda actually appears to be superior, and a stronger Force user than at least ROTS Sidious.

I mean first off, Sidious outright tries to flee the confrontation before it even begins, and he is visibly afraid.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/v9eLgk.gif

Yoda overpowers Sidious on several occassions, making Sidious visibly angry as opposed to his usual glee:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/vWwWLA.gif

http://share.gifyoutube.com/yDaoDx.gif

And according to the script, which I believe is G-Canon by the old EU rules in the portions of the duel we do not see Yoda drives Palpatine back:

PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena.

And then pretty much defeats him in lightsaber combat:

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

Yoda has the guy beat in terms of Force powers as well:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

Doomed people. Doomed. Palps was flat out losing.

Then Palpatine gets the high ground. Not because of superior ability, he just does:

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

For some reason Yoda breaks off his assault and lets Palps get away. *shrug*

And then we have the final confrontation of Force abilities, in which it appears at least to me, that Yoda is quite clearly winning:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/m6ZR3g.gif
http://share.gifyoutube.com/Kjrnbg.gif

Palps intially pushes him back, but Yoda finds his resolve and Palpatine is visibly overwhelmed, just as he was in the scripted scenes we did not see. The script itself, saying the following:

YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.

So again, irrespective of what the guide says, I think its pretty obvious the movie sought to depict Yoda as superior. And what the guide says is intepretable and generalised. It was too much for Yoda, he should for all intents and purposes have was, but was "unlucky" and too exhausted to regain lost ground. So he abandoned the fight. And I bet Palpatine was counting his lucky stars that he escape with his life.

P.S. So relevancy for this debate, Yoda can totally handle/pwn Vitiate.

Thank you for that post, Beni.

Hard to say that with so few teams in the league at the time.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Thank you for that post, Beni. The pleasure's all mine.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Irrespective of what the guide says, I think if you look closely at the duel (and the script), Yoda actually appears to be superior, and a stronger Force user than at least ROTS Sidious.

I mean first off, Sidious outright tries to flee the confrontation before it even begins, and he is visibly afraid.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/v9eLgk.gif

Yoda overpowers Sidious on several occassions, making Sidious visibly angry as opposed to his usual glee:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/vWwWLA.gif

http://share.gifyoutube.com/yDaoDx.gif

And according to the script, which I believe is G-Canon by the old EU rules in the portions of the duel we do not see Yoda drives Palpatine back:

PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena.

And then pretty much defeats him in lightsaber combat:

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

Yoda has the guy beat in terms of Force powers as well:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

Doomed people. Doomed. Palps was flat out losing.

Then Palpatine gets the high ground. Not because of superior ability, he just does:

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

For some reason Yoda breaks off his assault and lets Palps get away. *shrug*

And then we have the final confrontation of Force abilities, in which it appears at least to me, that Yoda is quite clearly winning:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/m6ZR3g.gif
http://share.gifyoutube.com/Kjrnbg.gif

Palps intially pushes him back, but Yoda finds his resolve and Palpatine is visibly overwhelmed, just as he was in the scripted scenes we did not see. The script itself, saying the following:

YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.

So again, irrespective of what the guide says, I think its pretty obvious the movie sought to depict Yoda as superior. And what the guide says is intepretable and generalised. It was too much for Yoda, he should for all intents and purposes have was, but was "unlucky" and too exhausted to regain lost ground. So he abandoned the fight. And I bet Palpatine was counting his lucky stars that he escape with his life.

P.S. So relevancy for this debate, Yoda can totally handle/pwn Vitiate.

Heresy on all fronts! This will be addressed l8r when I have my computer in front of me. uhuh

His entire post is completely illogical. I love this part most: "Yoda overpowers Sidious on several occassions, making Sidious visibly angry as opposed to his usual glee"

LMAO He is a sith lord of course he won't look as calm as Yoda. Sidious was also laughing and enjoying himself in other parts of the fight. Does that mean that he wasn't taking the fight seriously at those times? Perhaps that's why it was a stalemate in the first place.

@ Temp, don't get mad. Sids is still sexy tbh. biscuits

Guys, some good points in favor of Yoda were made. Yet, Sidious as of RotS is backed up by numerous sources to be his equal/slight superior. Not to mention the fight in RotS indicates they are equals/near equals.

Can't we all just agree that they are near equals as of RotS.

IMHO this thread should concentrate on how far beyond Vitiate are Yoda/Sidious/Luke

Also, this is Prime!Yoda in here so superior version to his RotS self.



It goes:

RotS Yoda =< RotS Sidious =< Prime!Yoda < RotJ Sidious < DE Sidious

Originally posted by Sinious
His entire post is completely illogical.I assume you plan on supporting that when you have the time.
If I didn't know any better, I'd say your cherry picking. But anyway I feel the point has eluded you, namely that Yoda visibly comes out of top in both of those blade locks, demonstrating his superior strength, hence why Sidious' glee quickly turns to rage, not as evidenced by it.

That said, Sidious has never showed a flicker of rage in his fight with Maul & Savage, so to claim its an intrinsic and hence meaningless aspect of his fighting style seems illogical.Only when he believed he had the upper hand, which for the record was twice, and in both instances it quickly gave way to fear or anger when he realised he was wrong.So a duel were an opponent is disarmed and overpowered is a stalemate? Mmkay.

Oh, I dunno. Prime Yoda may actually be equal to ROTJ Sidious. The increase in power for being 200 years younger may be equal to what Sidious learned over 23 years of being Emperor.

I think you should stick to "It was a stalemate!" stance. You're not gonna win this if if you're actually trying to argue that Yoda was winning that fight.

But sure, I'll respond when I'm back in my chateau.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Heresy on all fronts! This will be addressed l8r when I have my computer in front of me. uhuh watch?v=GyJNEZPm-pQ

Originally posted by Sinious
I think you should stick to "It was a stalemate!" stance. You're not gonna win this if if you're actually trying to argue that Yoda was winning that fight.

But sure, I'll respond when I'm back in my chateau. Sadly that's never been my stance.

Originally posted by Sinious
I think you should stick to "It was a stalemate!" stance. You're not gonna win this if if you're actually trying to argue that Yoda was winning that fight.

But sure, I'll respond when I'm back in my chateau.

You're not really in position to critique other people's arguments, even if it is captain persistence.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Oh, I dunno. Prime Yoda may actually be equal to ROTJ Sidious. The increase in power for being 200 years younger may be equal to what Sidious learned over 23 years of being Emperor.
Hard to say tbh. That would be the realm of pure speculation. Maaaybe he is. Maybe not.

Still, Prime!Yoda is more powerful than his RotS self and that's enough fot me to give him an edge over RotS Sidious.

Beefy, Sin is a stalwart Vitiate supporter. He's like your brother in arms. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sadly that's never been my stance.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3c7d8329152c70144e7d886ead4676dd/tumblr_meubm8EZpq1rme023o1_500.png

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Beefy, Sin is a stalwart Vitiate supporter. He's like your brother in arms. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Vitiate's fanclub is a really weird environment tbh. At one side I have a dude who legitimately claims Vitiate > Ones and on the other side there is this guy. The latter is worse tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Beefy, Sin is a stalwart Vitiate supporter. He's like your brother in arms. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I don't care. A buffoon is a buffoon regardless of who he supports. Criticizing other people's arguments just by saying the equivalent of "nope", doesn't work.

Originally posted by Sinious
http://24.media.tumblr.com/3c7d8329152c70144e7d886ead4676dd/tumblr_meubm8EZpq1rme023o1_500.png http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa125/Wats_and_Alex/yoda2.png