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All in their respective primes. Neutral ground.

Dooku stomps the posers.

Dooku takes them to the curb, Tony Soprano style

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/killgrave_photo/peezee.gif

Dooku stomps Lana and has a good fight with Marr which he is victorious in.

Dooku easily

Dooku may well win but it is very far from a stomp.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Dooku may well win but it is very far from a stomp.

Yes it will be. Lana has no feats putting her above Ventress, and Marr has nothing putting him above Kenobi. Dooku can ragdoll and knock out either of them. Also he's far above the team in sabers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes it will be. Lana has no feats putting her above Ventress, and Marr has nothing putting him above Kenobi. Dooku can ragdoll and knock out either of them. Also he's far above the team in sabers.

Genuine question: wouldn't Beniko have to be relatively powerful to hold such a high position in the Empire? Since Sith positions are generally based on having the power to hold them. Guess the same could be said about Marr too.

Their showing against Revan wasn't that great, I'll give you that.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
Genuine question: wouldn't Beniko have to be relatively powerful to hold such a high position in the Empire? Since Sith positions are generally based on having the power to hold them. Guess the same could be said about Marr too.

Their showing against Revan wasn't that great, I'll give you that.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/b9758d5a464615764654487c7286db87/tumblr_n3dgj4CKfW1s2x8sxo1_r1_500.png

Still holding on to the idea that the top tier Sith in the Empire area ll amazing combatants eh? Sorry dude but most of the Dark Councilors have been bumped down. When dudes like Archanon and Hydra are meh-tier, then people like Lana (who isn't even a Darth) don't look that great. Marr, while powerful is also old and likely past his prime, but even in his prime he's likely at best up there with Maul.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Marr, while powerful is also old and likely past his prime, but even in his prime he's likely at best up there with Maul.

Doesn't help that he's voiced by KotOR's generic Sith Trooper VA....

Considering Marr's current standing in the Empire, (de facto Emperor, over even the likes of Nox/Baras/Thanaton,) hype, (routing armies, better defense than any planetary shield, abilities second to none,) and his stomping/blitzing of Darth Lachris, I'd be willing to wager that he isn't fodder for the likes of Dooku.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Considering Marr's current standing in the Empire, (de facto Emperor, over even the likes of Nox/Baras/Thanaton,) hype, (routing armies, better defense than any planetary shield, abilities second to none,) and his stomping/blitzing of Darth Lachris, I'd be willing to wager that he isn't fodder for the likes of Dooku.

Marr actually thought Thanaton was at least on par with him given that he "never thought he'd live to see him overthrown". Also Thanaton was never a contender for Council leader, as the Emperor was still ruler by that point. Baras was the leader of the Council for a good while, not Marr, as the Emperor's Voice and Marr just took it.

Lachris is featless, routing armies is impressive, planetary shield is hyperbole, second to none applied to the entire Dark Council which is in itself a contradictory statement. So he has one good feat of routing armies, although this was undoubtedly during his prime and not current Marr, who believes he's pretty close to death.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Marr actually thought Thanaton was at least on par with him given that he "never thought he'd live to see him overthrown".

That doesn't really imply anything of the sort.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Also Thanaton was never a contender for Council leader, as the Emperor was still ruler by that point.

Yes, but Thanaton wasn't a contender for Council Leader relative to Marr, either. He wasn't even appointed to the Dark Council until late in the Inquisitor's story arc.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Baras was the leader of the Council for a good while, not Marr, as the Emperor's Voice and Marr just took it.

The Council didn't wholly believe Baras's claim as Voice of the Emperor. Marr and others were skeptical, while the rest vouched for him only to gain power. The notion that the Dark Council feared Baras and bowed before him due to his strength in the force is unfounded. They feared him on feigned authority of the Sith Emperor himself. On the other hand:

"When Marr speaks, he commands the attention of the entire Dark Council with intimidating authority and stern wisdom."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Sounds like a leader to me. http://r30.imgfast.net/users/3013/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lachris is featless, routing armies is impressive, planetary shield is hyperbole, second to none applied to the entire Dark Council which is in itself a contradictory statement. So he has one good feat of routing armies, although this was undoubtedly during his prime and not current Marr, who believes he's pretty close to death.

Lachris is featless, to be sure, but the feats he displayed throughout the fight, (appearing to teleport through sheer speed, only slightly twitching his leg when it was struck by Lachris's force lightning, etc.) are nonetheless impressive.

Routing armies is impressive, yes.

Obviously the planetary shield quote is hyperbole, but it still implies an extremely high level of warriorship.

Not sure what you think I'm quoting, but:

"But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none." -SWTOR Codex

TL;DR, Marr is the man in charge of the Empire, not even the likes of Darth Nox challenge his power and authority.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Marr actually thought Thanaton was at least on par with him given that he "never thought he'd live to see him overthrown".

That's actually because Marr is dying, and he knows it.

Gotta be a ****ing badass to die of Natural causes on the Dark Council tbh.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That doesn't really imply anything of the sort.

Uh, yes it does considering Marr's one of the most influential on the Council if he felt he could actually defeat Thanaton he'd probably just declare a duel.




There was no "leader" of the Dark Council until the Emperor's demise. After that Marr filled the power vacuum.



Vowrawn disagrees.


vJKlQHhmEW4

28:05

"Even now, Baras is near indestructible"

After they dismantled his powerbase.




Eh, that could mean anything from Kit Fisto-level speed to Sidious level speed. And her lightning isn't that impressive.



Again I direct you to the youtube video above. "Baras dares not strike at him within sight of the Dark Council". Nox is new to the council and her only true ally seems to be Darth Marr. Nox may be stronger than Marr, but his allies on the Council would never let her strike at him openly.

+ Marr has no interest to lead, only preserve the Empire. That's why so many are accepting of his 'rule' is because he's only interested in cooperation.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uh, yes it does considering Marr's one of the most influential on the Council if he felt he could actually defeat Thanaton he'd probably just declare a duel.

Uhh, what? This implies that Marr had any interest in dueling or overthrowing Thanaton in the first place. Which he didn't.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
There was no "leader" of the Dark Council until the Emperor's demise. After that Marr filled the power vacuum.

I meant leader as in the most powerful and respected member of the Dark Council itself. None of the Dark Councillors held Thanaton in high esteem except for Marr, and even then there's implied inferiority from Thanaton to Marr.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Vowrawn disagrees.


vJKlQHhmEW4

28:05

"Even now, Baras is near indestructible"

After they dismantled his powerbase.

Meanwhile, Vowrawn also directly states that it's split between those who do and don't believe Baras's claims/bid for power. If he was the unquestioned leader of the Council, this wouldn't be the case. The Council simply fears that striking back against Baras will incur the Wrath of the Emperor. It doesn't necessarily have to do with his own personal power or strength in the force.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, that could mean anything from Kit Fisto-level speed to Sidious level speed. And her lightning isn't that impressive.

Yeah, speed feats tend to be ambiguous like that. Lachris's lightning isn't markedly impressive, but Marr's sheer nonchalance when being struck with it is very impressive.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Again I direct you to the youtube video above. "Baras dares not strike at him within sight of the Dark Council". Nox is new to the council and her only true ally seems to be Darth Marr. Nox may be stronger than Marr, but his allies on the Council would never let her strike at him openly.

+ Marr has no interest to lead, only preserve the Empire. That's why so many are accepting of his 'rule' is because he's only interested in cooperation.

Fair enough, but this still doesn't mean Nox has to adhere to Marr's authority, but she does anyways. The fact that Marr has no interest to lead, yet none on the Dark Council dare challenge his authority, and instead adhere to it, is testament to his power and reach over the dark council. Considering Marr's MO is warriorship rather than politics, this bodes well for his capabilities in a fight.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Uhh, what? This implies that Marr had any interest in dueling or overthrowing Thanaton in the first place. Which he didn't.



"I did not think I would live to see Thanaton overthrown..." That implies to me that he was certainly a rival, and Marr certainly thought he'd outlive him.




There's only circumstantial evidence supporting Marr being the strongest on the Council. While surely he was one of the most if not the most powerful councilor
"by the time war broke out again with the Republic the Sith Lord was aware that his body would not last much longer."

I think Great War Marr could likely be Maul level, but current Marr is a good deal below that.



That's not true at all.
12:00
"Most of the Dark Council knows that Baras is not the Emperor's true Voice"

They don't fear the Emperor, they fear Baras and his powerbase.



Nah, Maul tanks a full blast of lightning from a nightsister and just walks through it. But lighting from Dooku made him scream like a stuck pig.




Uh, because with Decimus, Arho, Malgus, Arkous, Vengean, and Baras dead the Spheres of Military Offense, and Military Strategy were decapitated leaving Marr in sole command of the military. Especially with the Empire on the defense.

Marr is the most powerful councilor because his powerbase is also massive because many of his opponents have been killed. Regardless of if he likes it, the politics put him in a rather advantageous position.

Any arguments of Marr not being in his prime are null, as the OP specifically states that all combatants are in their respective primes. Anyways:

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"I did not think I would live to see Thanaton overthrown..." That implies to me that he was certainly a rival, and Marr certainly thought he'd outlive him.

Nah. That implies he never thought he'd live to see someone come up and overthrow Thanaton/take his place. Not sure how that paints Thanaton as Marr's rival, or that Marr had plans of dueling/overthrowing Thanaton himself. Hell, Ravage implies that he'd be the one to silence Thanaton.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's not true at all.
12:00
"Most of the Dark Council knows that Baras is not the Emperor's true Voice"

They don't fear the Emperor, they fear Baras and his powerbase.

Perhaps I recall the events differently. I'm fairly certain it was also stated that those who believed and didn't in Baras's claims were split, and those who did believe his claim were simply vying for power. Furthermore, I remember Baras chiding the Council that the Emperor would strike them down if they didn't comply with him, which would imply that he did use the authority of the Emperor as a means to control the Council.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah, Maul tanks a full blast of lightning from a nightsister and just walks through it. But lighting from Dooku made him scream like a stuck pig.

I agree that Dooku's lightning is vastly superior to that of a random nightsister. Similarly, Marr's nonchalance with mook-level lightning mirrors Maul's.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uh, because with Decimus, Arho, Malgus, Arkous, Vengean, and Baras dead the Spheres of Military Offense, and Military Strategy were decapitated leaving Marr in sole command of the military. Especially with the Empire on the defense.

Marr is the most powerful councilor because his powerbase is also massive because many of his opponents have been killed. Regardless of if he likes it, the politics put him in a rather advantageous position.

Even when all of those Council Members were alive,

"When Marr speaks, he commands the attention of the entire Dark Council with intimidating authority and stern wisdom."

Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Still implies leadership/superiority over the other Dark Council members.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Any arguments of Marr not being in his prime are null, as the OP specifically states that all combatants are in their respective primes. Anyways:

Fair.




Ravage also states that he could have murdered Malgus. His opinion means nothing he's supremely arrogant.




Vowrawn states on Corellia that most of the Council didn't buy Baras' claim. He did, and if he didn't have the power to back it the Council would have just said 'you are full of shit, we're going to kill you'.




I think you missed my point there. My point is him tanking Lachris's lightning is akin to Maul tanking that Nightsisters. Marr has no impressive lightning feats.




Not really dude. Marr is one of the most senior members of the Council, its only natural he'd command such respect. I mean look at Ravage who's probably the most unruly Councilor. Even he stopped his ranting when the Wrath was supported by a Dark Councilor with much experience like Vowrawn.

Look I think that Marr was pretty close to Maul in his prime. But that's not enough to defeat Dooku, even with Lana as support (Lana is fodder).

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ravage also states that he could have murdered Malgus. His opinion means nothing he's supremely arrogant.

Where is this stated?


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Vowrawn states on Corellia that most of the Council didn't buy Baras' claim. He did, and if he didn't have the power to back it the Council would have just said 'you are full of shit, we're going to kill you'.

The "power" comes in the form of The Entity. Which isn't power relevant to combat so much as it is farsight.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I think you missed my point there. My point is him tanking Lachris's lightning is akin to Maul tanking that Nightsisters. Marr has no impressive lightning feats.

Which is what I said. And it should be implied that Marr's lightning is infinitely superior to Lachris's.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not really dude. Marr is one of the most senior members of the Council, its only natural he'd command such respect. I mean look at Ravage who's probably the most unruly Councilor. Even he stopped his ranting when the Wrath was supported by a Dark Councilor with much experience like Vowrawn.

Look I think that Marr was pretty close to Maul in his prime. But that's not enough to defeat Dooku, even with Lana as support (Lana is fodder).

You're right, Marr is the most senior member of the Dark Council. How did Marr retain his position for so long? How did he command such respect? Politics? Manipulations? He hated both. It's pretty much fact that he gained and continued holding on to his position due to his military efforts, in which he'd routed armies and conquered worlds, hence why his abilities are, "second to none." Furthermore, Ravage wasn't silenced until Baras was.

The problem here is that no one said that Marr/Beniko would defeat Dooku. Personally I think they have a legitimate shot. I'm arguing the notion that Dooku would stomp Marr/Beniko, which is surprising coming from you, considering how high I thought you held Marr.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"I did not think I would live to see Thanaton overthrown..." That implies to me that he was certainly a rival, and Marr certainly thought he'd outlive him.

Marr says he's a better Sith than Ravage gives him credit for. Pretty obvious that seeing him dethroned was not something he wanted.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Where is this stated?

DbD3aMzxSyA

He does say we, but the point that Ravage is arrogant still stands. I doubt he's stronger than Thanaton.





I highly doubt that vision alone made the most powerful Darths in the galaxy bend the knee. They respect the Emperor due to his power not his foresight.

Also

Yfvn2gTjscA

"If Baras true, and I false he should be able to defeat me himself."

And the Councilors agree. Mosts of the Darths knew he was false and yet none challenged him? Why? Because they knew they could not stand against his power. Do you really think that these Councilors wouldn't just strike Baras down if he was Vowrawn-tier combat wise?




More powerful? Sure.




Vowrawn might actually edge him out age wise. Just because Marr despises the game doesn't mean he isn't a skilled player.

Also I direct you to the video above at 3:00

"The challenger is also supported by Darth Vowrawn, one of our own. I have no doubts about you Baras but swat this gnat quickly so we can continue our business."

Marr simply thinks that there's been too much infighting (you know with Thanaton, Baras, Vengean, and sort of Arho all being killed due to Sith actions). If he wasn't a master of the game, he'd be like Malgus. You can't bludgeon your way to the Council, even Malgus knew that in the end.




1. Mmmm I didn't read that they were all in their primes mind you.
2. I think Beniko is pretty much fodder in this fight.
3. As I said prime Marr is probably Maul level (probs a bit below), which is still a tier below Dooku. So yeah, they do lose, every time.

Lana Beniko is said to be very powerful in her own right, Darth Marr was very impressed with her and the fact she continuously survives campaigns agsinst Vitiate and Revan implied great strength all on it's own.

Surely Lana's ability to block Vitiate's mind controlling powers when Sixth Line Jedi Masters and Commanders couldn't accomplish the same is a great showing.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lana Beniko is said to be very powerful in her own right, Darth Marr was very impressed with her and the fact she continuously survives campaigns agsinst Vitiate and Revan implied great strength all on it's own.

Surely Lana's ability to block Vitiate's mind controlling powers when Sixth Line Jedi Masters and Commanders couldn't accomplish the same is a great showing.

That's the thing though. Powerful in her own right isn't enough to go up against Dooku who's humiliated some of the most skilled duelists in the Jedi Order's history. If anything she could be a hinderance.

Does she have any skill feats to suggest she doesn't get outright gutted by Tyranus in a duel?

Dooku can probably dispose of Lana as easily as he did to Tiplee. Marr vs Dooku would be quite the battle, but Dooku would prevail.

Yet Revan is more powerful and Vitiate far more so by orders of magnitude, If she can do relatively well against them I see no reason to believe Dooku fodderizes her when they couldn't.

Revan couldn't because he was also facing a shit ton of other powerful opponents - all of which were amplified "greatly" by Satele Shan's Battle Meditation.
And Vitiate did utterly fodderize her. He dismissed her in a couple seconds. Lana is probably clocking around Tiplee who, while great, was ultimately no match for Dooku.

I will give you the Revan fight however against Vitiate she resists his direct mental attacks when the entirety of the Sixth Line couldn't.

Sure, because he wasn't focusing on her. His TP was spread out across the entire planet.

He wasn't solely focusing on any one individual, yet all the sixth line was still subjugated to The Emperor's will, so Lana resisting is still very impressive.

No one is denying Lana isn't impressive. But it takes more than impressive to hold a candle against Tyranus.

Being impressive against the second strongest Sith in the mythos is definitely worthy of a candle against Dooku. She showed immense Force prowess and willpower in being able to do so where everyone but the protags couldn't.

She isn't Dooku tier, but she doesn't have to be, she only needs to be adequate support for Darth Marr.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He wasn't solely focusing on any one individual, yet all the sixth line was still subjugated to The Emperor's will, so Lana resisting is still very impressive.
The Emperor's intentions were the Sixth Line, IIRC.

Lana states she is fighting Vitiate's mind control, doesn't get much more clear than that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Emperor's intentions were the Sixth Line, IIRC.

True, but Lana actively suppressing the Emperor from her mind implies that The Emperor was indeed trying to dominate her will ala the Sixth Line.

Sure, he was trying to dominate everyone on the planet. That doesn't mean he used equal effort for everyone. The Sixth Line was his primary target iirc, not Lana.

That's a fair stance, though is there any conclusive evidence either way?