Ziost Vitiate vs. the Daughter

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Stigma
Who wins?

EmperorSidious2
The daughter curbstomps. It's stated that the only people who can defeat the ones are, one another, Abeloth, and anakin.

Angelalex242
Well, Anakin at full potential. Which he never got close to.

But yes, daughter curbstomps. It's like facing GM Luke with Oneness...but worse.

carthage
Lol

Emperordmb
Daughter stomps.

Lord Stark
Daughter lolstomps.

Trocity
Emperor Vitiate hype have elevated him to level of Ones of Mortis, good fight.

Daughter likely falls in the end to Emperor Vitiate's supreme Dark Side mastery.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Trocity
Emperor Vitiate hype have elevated him to level of Ones of Mortis, good fight.

Daughter likely falls in the end to Emperor Vitiate's supreme Dark Side mastery.


http://img.pandawhale.com/post-44867-arya-stark-laughing-gif-Imgur-B8ub.gif

NTJack0
Originally posted by Trocity
Emperor Vitiate hype have elevated him to level of Ones of Mortis, good fight.

Daughter likely falls in the end to Emperor Vitiate's supreme Dark Side mastery. http://img.pandawhale.com/post-31074-J-Jonah-Jameson-laughing-gif-S-NWLY.gif

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Trocity
Emperor Vitiate hype have elevated him to level of Ones of Mortis, good fight.

Daughter likely falls in the end to Emperor Vitiate's supreme Dark Side mastery.

Vitiate is slapped and then scolded and then shocked alive by the daughter. She was able to go toe to toe an even stalemate with the Son who we all know beats vitiate 10/10 times.

Emperordmb
@EmperorSidious2 He wasn't being serious. It's understandable if you didn't understand that at first because you're relatively new here.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Emperordmb
@EmperorSidious2 He wasn't being serious. It's understandable if you didn't understand that at first because you're relatively new here.

How can you tell?

Emperordmb
The mannerisms he used in his post were reminiscent of S_W_LeGenD, a user commonly mocked for his viewpoints on Vitiate, and I don't recall Trocity having a Vitiate>Ones viewpoint. In short, this was mimicry/mockery, rather than a serious viewpoint of his.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The mannerisms he used in his post were reminiscent of S_W_LeGenD, a user commonly mocked for his viewpoints on Vitiate, and I don't recall Trocity having a Vitiate>Ones viewpoint. In short, this was mimicry/mockery, rather than a serious viewpoint of his.

I guess I'll try to look for it. Thanks.

S_W_LeGenD
So all of you Daughter fangirls, care to explain how Daughter stomps? What are her feats?

Subjectivity at its finest on display in this thread.

The Ones are the most overhyped and overrated characters of Star Wars.

Emperordmb
Dave Filoni calling one of them the strongest SW character, TCW refers to them as being more powerful than any beings Jedi have seen before, having to withdraw from the Galaxy to avoid ruining it with their powers, being worshipped as gods by Mother Talzin, Tahiri putting them on a level beyond Sidious, and being the "embodiment of darkness" "power of the light" and "balance of the force" according to SW.com all have something to do with that...

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Dave Filoni calling one of them the strongest SW character,
Does Dave Filoni have knowledge of Vitiate? I doubt that he concentrates on SWTOR related developments. It is all subjective in the end. You ask him about Vitiate and then let me know.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
TCW refers to them as being more powerful than any beings Jedi have seen before,
Canon continuity.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
having to withdraw from the Galaxy to avoid ruining it with their powers,
A claim.

Vitiate's actions on Ziost confirm that he is a threat to the entire galaxy.

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy."

From (Darth Marr, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)

Originally posted by Emperordmb
being worshipped as gods by Mother Talzin,
I am sure that Vitiate got similar respect from many among his followers.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Tahiri putting them on a level beyond Sidious,
Her belief. She never faced Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
and being the "embodiment of darkness" "power of the light" and "balance of the force" according to SW.com all have something to do with that...
Vitiate have comparable hype.

The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

&


He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

&

"The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him. I may be that champion."

From (Revan, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

SunRazer
The Daughter being the antithesis of the dark side's very personification as per The Ultimate Visual Guide means she's automatically above any dark sider, both Vitiate and Sidious included.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
The Daughter being the antithesis of the dark side's very personification as per The Ultimate Visual Guide means she's automatically above any dark sider, both Vitiate and Sidious included.
Star Wars - The Ultimate Visual Guide - Updated and Expanded release date is April 30, 2012. It contains very limited information about Vitiate.

Star Wars - The Old Republic - Encyclopedia release date is October 15, 2012. It contains detailed information about Vitiate and promotes him as the most powerful Force-user ever.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb 4
Quotes have expiration dates? Interesting.
Newer sources always take precedence over older sources in reliability aspect.

Suppose that you consult an encyclopedia. If you have access to all of its editions, which edition would you like to consult? Latest or outdated?

B/W Star Wars - The Ultimate Visual Guide - Updated and Expanded recognizes The Ones as immensely powerful Force-users but doesn't promotes them as most powerful Force-users:

Here they encounter the Ones, a trio of immensely powerful and ancient Force-users.

ILS
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Her belief. She never faced Darth Sidious.
---
A claim.

Vitiate's actions on Ziost confirm that he is a threat to the entire galaxy.

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy."

From (Darth Marr, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan) >discredits opposing argument for using in-universe evidence
>character statement from Darth Marr used as confirmation

laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ILS
>discredits opposing argument for using in-universe evidence
>character statement from Darth Marr used as confirmation

laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud
Darth Marr have served Vitiate and his assertion is substantiated with evidence, genius.

In contrast, Tahiri have no experience with Darth Sidious. She doesn't understands how powerful Sidious had become, she feels overwhelmed in her experiences with Abeloth.

Laugh at your own stupidity.

ILS
What evidence does Marr have?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ILS
What evidence does Marr have?
Are you serious?

Darth Marr have directly served Vitiate for decades and have absolute understanding of his power and history. He guides protags in matters concerning Vitiate.

You would have known if you have played SWTOR and concentrated on its lore.

ILS
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Marr have directly served Vitiate and have absolute understanding of his power and history. Got a quote for that?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ILS
Got a quote for that?
Yes:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4563768-ziost-imp-mail-03.jpg

Darth Marr also opposed Revan's actions on Yavin IV because he understood that Vitiate posed threat to the entire galaxy and his revival won't be good for anybody. And his concerns have been proven valid by developments on Ziost.

As I said, if you haven't played latest expansions of SWTOR, you are not in the position to judge Marr's credibility.

ILS
Yeah, nothing in that message indicates Marr has "absolute understanding" of Vitiate's power, or evidence that he can and will consume the galaxy. The fact he flat out states that Vitiate is perhaps more powerful than they had already assumed, indicates he had no concrete evidence to begin with, just a false assumption. Marr disapproving of reviving Vitiate doesn't indicate he has "absolute understanding" either - it's common sense that reviving Vitiate is a bad idea.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ILS
Yeah, nothing in that message indicates Marr has "absolute understanding" of Vitiate's power, or evidence that he can and will consume the galaxy. The fact he flat out states that Vitiate is perhaps more powerful than they had already assumed, indicates he had no concrete evidence to begin with, just a false assumption. Marr disapproving of reviving Vitiate doesn't indicate he has "absolute understanding" either - it's common sense that reviving Vitiate is a bad idea.
Darth Marr is an authority on Vitiate from storytelling perspective. You are not, and your subjectivity have no merit.

Marr claimed that Vitiate would consume all life in the galaxy in time. And this is correct. If Vitiate is not stopped, he will consume all life in the galaxy in time. PERIOD.

ILS
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Marr is an authority on Vitiate from storytelling perspective. Based on what?
Hence why all I did was point out your double standard instead of evaluating Vitiate.
Maybe, maybe not - fact is, you're treating a character statement with little basis alone as factual evidence, while writing off similar sources presented by the opposition. That's just poor debating, my friend.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ILS
Based on what?
Works of BioWare.

Originally posted by ILS
Hence why all I did was point out your double standard instead of evaluating Vitiate.
What double-standard? Does Tahiri Veila have experience with Darth Sidious? Does she?

Darth Marr have served Vitiate for decades. This is ample time to understand and evaluate someone.

Originally posted by ILS
Maybe, maybe not - fact is, you're treating a character statement with little basis alone as factual evidence, while writing off similar sources for the opposition. That's just poor debating, my friend.
Little basis? What is stopping Vitiate from consuming biota of each planet until the deed is done?

Poor debating is that you are putting Tahiri and Marr in the same basket without considering additional factors that determine their credibility.

Suppose that you get to consult two persons for holocaust topic. One have experience with holocaust and one does not. Would you consider views of both as equally reliable? In current times, some even deny that holocaust happened.

ILS
That doesn't aid your argument.
Your claim is that Marr has factual, indisputable evidence that Vitiate can and will consume the galaxy. I'm asking for that evidence. Him serving Vitiate for decades, and then falsely assuming how powerful he is during the Yavin IV incident, isn't much of a foundation to stand on, is it?
That's what you call a no limits fallacy, my friend.
I wouldn't consider them equally reliable just like I don't consider Tahiri and Marr equally reliable; but without evidence I won't consider Marr to be a factual source. This is pretty basic stuff.
And they'd be wrong.

..unless they're Darth Marr, that is. http://r30.imgfast.net/users/3013/11/32/39/smiles/2962655802.gif

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ILS
That doesn't aid your argument.
Darth Marr serves as the authority on matters concerning in Vitiate from storytelling perspective. Simple.

Originally posted by ILS
Your claim is that Marr has factual, indisputable evidence that Vitiate can and will consume the galaxy. I'm asking for that evidence. Him serving Vitiate for decades, and then falsely assuming how powerful he is during the Yavin IV incident, isn't much of a foundation to stand on, is it?
Marr didn't claim that Vitiate would consume the galaxy in a single attempt. He asserted that Vitiate would consume the galaxy in time.

Falsely assuming? Vitiate consumed planet Ziost, didn't he? A planet is likely to have billions of life forms. Vitiate can repeat this process on each planet. Also, the more he consumes, the more powerful he becomes.

Vitiate's actions on Ziost surprised Marr in the sense that Vitiate is likely to consume all life in the galaxy at a faster pace then he originally imagined.

You are wrong. Marr is not.

Originally posted by ILS
That's what you call a no limits fallacy, my friend.
I wouldn't consider them equally reliable just like I don't consider Tahiri and Marr equally reliable; but without evidence I won't consider Marr to be a factual source. This is pretty basic stuff.
You are not getting the basic stuff actually.

Marr have credibility because he had ample time to evaluate Vitiate.

Marr's assertion is substantiated by Vitiate's actions on Ziost.

Originally posted by ILS
And they'd be wrong.

..unless they're Darth Marr, that is. http://r30.imgfast.net/users/3013/11/32/39/smiles/2962655802.gif
You are missing the point.

AGAIN:

Suppose that you get to consult two persons for holocaust topic. One have experience with holocaust and one does not. Would you consider views of both as equally reliable? In current times, some even deny that holocaust happened.

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Star Wars - The Ultimate Visual Guide - Updated and Expanded release date is April 30, 2012. It contains very limited information about Vitiate.

Star Wars - The Old Republic - Encyclopedia release date is October 15, 2012. It contains detailed information about Vitiate and promotes him as the most powerful Force-user ever.

I'm aware of all this - TOR: Encyclopedia doesn't consider events beyond TOR, by the way, such as those form future eras (ie. Darth Sidious) or beings like the Ones. And no, mentioning the Celestials doesn't mean it considers the Ones, because they're not synonymous.

Beniboybling

SunRazer
Marr basically admitted his deficiency of knowledge of the Emperor when the Emperor left Yavin IV - and he didn't have any canonical relationships with the Emperor either. He's not a reliable source on the Emperor, lol.

AncientPower
Only the Emperor's hands really have any idea, though Darth Jadus seemed to understand what was coming and hid in the far edges of the galaxy accordingly.

SunRazer
BTW, Leland's quote about the Father being the most powerful Force user came after the Encyclopedia, IIRC. So... yeah.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Canon continuity.Considering this content was created prior to the new Canon that is technically not the case, in the contexts in which the statement was made, it applied to all EU material by merit of holding T-Canon status. The new canon rules are totally abstracted from the material itself, they are not relevant. I would apply the same logic to the statement made by Leland Chee as well.

On top of that the Father has said:

"My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other."

The Father having existing long before and during Vitiate's time and being very much in tune and attentive to the cosmic balance of the galaxy, and therefore presumably aware of any and all powerful beings who might effect it.

"The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him. I may be that champion."

Vitiate certainly fulfills that criteria.

And by your own actions you've admitted that its status as a claim in itself is not alone valid reason for dismissing it, and beyond that, we have no reason for believing the Father's claim false.

And just to reinforce the influence of the Ones on the Force as valid:
--Credit to ShootingNova's respect thread, I suggest you read.

Those are both from an objective sources. Vitiate's influence on the Force has never been stated to be as profound, because it is not.

Finally all of the Ones possess the ability to shut off lightsabers. Vitiate, evidently, does not:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KrZPp8.gif

/debate

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering this content was created prior to the new Canon that is technically not the case, in the contexts in which the statement was made, it applied to all EU material by merit of holding T-Canon status. The new canon rules are totally abstracted from the material itself, they are not relevant. I would apply the same logic to the statement made by Leland Chee as well.
This makes no sense.

Star Wars lore is split into two continuities: Legends and Canon. All observations shall revolve around this fact.

The Ones are the most powerful Force-users in Canon continuity. However, this matter becomes murkier in Legends continuity.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On top of that the Father has said:

"My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other."

The Father having existing long before and during Vitiate's time and being very much in tune and attentive to the cosmic balance of the galaxy, and therefore presumably aware of any and all powerful beings who might effect it.

"The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him. I may be that champion."

Vitiate certainly fulfills that criteria.

And by your own actions you've admitted that its status as a claim in itself is not alone valid reason for dismissing it, and beyond that, we have no reason for believing the Father's claim false.
I disagree with the assumption that Father is all-knowing. How the hell he is supposed to be?

I acknowledge The Ones as immensely powerful Force-users. However, their on-screen demonstrations do not do justice to their hype.

Father could be manipulating Anakin Skywalker to take his place.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And just to reinforce the influence of the Ones on the Force as valid:
--Credit to ShootingNova's respect thread, I suggest you read.

Those are both from an objective sources. Vitiate's influence on the Force has never been stated to be as profound, because it is not.
Vitiate harmed the Force in different places (e.g. Nathema and Ziost) and is implied to have created imbalance and you are stating that his influence is not profound? roll eyes (sarcastic)

BioWare isn't concentrating on this matter, this doesn't means that Vitiate's actions are not causing great disturbance in the Force.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Finally all of the Ones possess the ability to shut off lightsabers. Vitiate, evidently, does not:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KrZPp8.gif

/debate
Did Vitiate try tutaminis? He didn't.

When The Ones tanked Lightsabers, they weren't performing other actions. They fully concentrated on tanking lightsabers.

Selenial
Beni ****ing slaughterhousing LeGenD. Loving this thread.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
Beni ****ing slaughterhousing LeGenD. Loving this thread.
This debate have just begun.

We will see what The Ones are made of.

S_W_LeGenD
Power of The Son:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4390172-hlpu0.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/4390157-3358580965-43271.gif

- Not too great. I am disappointed.

Selenial
Why is that "not too great", he's throwing around two powerful Jedi without a thought. It would be bad if he failed to kill them while trying, but he wasn't trying to kill them.

You're literally like a child who follows the shiny lights of pretty force powers thinking extravagance means power.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
Why is that "not too great", he's throwing around two powerful Jedi without a thought. It would be bad if he failed to kill them while trying, but he wasn't trying to kill them.

You're literally like a child who follows the shiny lights of pretty force powers thinking extravagance means power.
Without a thought? You can't see the gesture? The Son performed that act with a proper gesture. B/W Force push doesn't kills on open ground.

Now watch this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4545452-2202876575-fVnT0.gif

Among them, the girl is a Force-user. Also, this demonstration of power and control is from a single host. And Vitiate had been spending energy on possessing countless hosts on Ziost. Imagine that.

Also, keep your taunts to yourself. I can respond in kind as well.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If the Father is correct, then why didn't The Ones rip Mortis apart as a side-effect of their powers?Because Mortis was a prison designed to contain them...We don't know the exact nature of the device but it is quite obvious that it is tremendously advanced, the Celestials being responsible for vastly powerful and advanced technology by which they could shape the very galaxy.

Bearing in mind that this has been validated by canonical sources.Lol OK, but the fact is he is one of many Sith who has never seen or spoken with the Emperor in person, let alone made privy to his secrets.No because I've actually given reasons beyond "it's a claim" to support the fact that Marr is less reliable.How? The Emperor has been cut off from the outside world for centuries and even to the Dark Council he remains a mystery.Neither his servitude to Vitiate nor his position on the Dark Council is proof he possesses privy and accurate knowledge on Vitiate's powers.

He guide the protags? Great. That's called leadership. As the de facto leader of the Sith Empire it is him that everyone is turning to guidance for, that does not make him an authority on the subject, and you've yet failed to prove he is.
Nothing is wrong with it, what is demonstrates though is that Marr prior assumptions on the Emperor were false, and he clearly does not wholly understand the Emperor's power as you claimed, otherwise he would not be confused.

Regardless whether Marr is an authority to Vitiate or not is hardly relevant to the debate. Nor is his possible ability to consume the entire galaxy, considering Ziost Vitiate has yet to achieve the power to do so. It's irrelevant.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I disagree with the assumption that Father is all-knowing. How the hell he is supposed to be?

I acknowledge The Ones as immensely powerful Force-users. However, their on-screen demonstrations do not do justice to their hype.I don't recall saying the Father is all knowing, I recall saying that the Father is in tune with the cosmic balance of the galaxy, and therefore would be aware of those who would effect it.

He did after all know of the existence of Anakin Skywalker, and brought him to Mortis. Really is ridiculous to believe that the Father, whose practical role is to maintain balance in the Force, would be unaware of a vastly powerful dark sider who plans to consume the entire galaxy. Prove it.I said nothing Vitiate has done is as profound. None of this is a demonstration of tearing the very fabric of the galaxy apart by virtue of one's existence, nor is it proof that Vitiate was a fulcrum for the Force and an essential aspect of it whose mere death could cause a considerable shift.

Try again.If your going to state Vitiate has parity with the Ones, provide proof not baseless assertions.Was the Emperor occupied with other actions throughout the entirety of their duel?

Was he occupied with other actions here?

http://share.gifyoutube.com/Ke0zqZ.gif

I wasn't aware Vitiate required so much concentration to walk.

Fact is conventional weaponry has prove useless against the Ones, but Vitiate has demonstrate to be vulnerable to it.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Power of The Son:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4390172-hlpu0.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/4390157-3358580965-43271.gif

- Not too great. I am disappointed. So we've resorted to cherry picking now?

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So all of you Daughter fangirls, care to explain how Daughter stomps? What are her feats?

Subjectivity at its finest on display in this thread.

The Ones are the most overhyped and overrated characters of Star Wars.


The only ones who coul defeat the daughter are The Father, The Son, Abeloth and anakin Skywalker. By extension as Luke became what anakin was supposed to become I would say Luke could also defeat them. With that alone vitiate can't defeat her as she is known as one of the most powerful force weilders the u inverse will ever see. Also she was able to stalemate the son someone who is basically the dark side in carnet meaning he is the most powerful dark sider (purely). It goes like this The Son>Sidious>Vitiate. So if Sidious can't do it than what hope does Vitate have.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Does Dave Filoni have knowledge of Vitiate? I doubt that he concentrates on SWTOR related developments. It is all subjective in the end. You ask him about Vitiate and then let me know.
He was the guy put in charge of continuity among sources. I'm pretty sure his statements outweigh your opinion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Canon continuity.
TCW is still applicable to the legends continuity as well.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A claim.
confirmed by The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am sure that Vitiate got similar respect from many among his followers.
None as powerful as Talzin.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Her belief. She never faced Darth Sidious.
She's certainly aware of his Force Storms. Plus, Luke said Abeloth used the force with greater power than he ever did, and Luke has achieved oneness twice and wielded his and Leia's power to vanquish DE Sidious with a wall of light.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Power of The Son:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4390172-hlpu0.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/4390157-3358580965-43271.gif

- Not too great. I am disappointed.


Oh and don't forget his tutamintis or his battle with the sister or his first bout with obi wan and ahsoka, or how he showed anakin his future, or how he can turn into a giant bird, or his battle with The Daughter, or how he overwhelmed The Father twice.

Emperordmb

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Mortis was a prison designed to contain them...
Not a convincing argument. Mortis maybe a prison but its internal environment is supposed to be destruction-proof?

We don't see The Ones causing violent tremors, knocking down trees, disintegrating rocks and structures as side-effect of their actions.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We don't know the exact nature of the device but it is quite obvious that it is tremendously advanced, the Celestials being responsible for vastly powerful and advanced technology by which they could shape the very galaxy.

Bearing in mind that this has been validated by canonical sources.
I don't deny the fact that Celestial creations are very impressive. They fascinate me.

However, below is the reason given for The Ones to migrate to Mortis in Legends continuity:

In these reliefs, Abeloth stood alone in the courtyard, watching the Father depart with the Son and Daughter. Her face was contorted in anger, and the air around her was whirling with fronds and jungle reptiles and lightning. In the panels that followed, she looked even more deranged. The courtyard was overrun with vegetation, and a large winged lizard was struggling to escape her grasp, its eyes wide with terror, it wings straining as it struggled to pull its foot out of her hand.

Taken from (Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol OK, but the fact is he is one of many Sith who has never seen or spoken with the Emperor in person, let alone made privy to his secrets.
I disagree. Darth Marr became a member of Dark Council and Vitiate was known to have meetings with the Dark Council to discuss important matters.

On the occasions when the Emperor summons them, however, all members of the Dark Council are expected to gather and obey.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Vitiate had become active in the galactic matters since Great Galactic War. And Darth Marr was a member of the Dark Council during these times. He likely had met Vitiate several times. In addition, Marr could gather information about Vitiate from other sources and individuals.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No because I've actually given reasons beyond "it's a claim" to support the fact that Marr is less reliable.
I don't find The Father's claim reliable either, specially when the Legends continuity is considered. See above.

Marr's limited knowledge of Vitiate should not be considered an indication of lack of reliability. He understood that Vitiate posed threat to the entire galaxy and his revival won't be good for anybody. This is why he opposed Revan's plan on Yavin IV. Ziost related developments surprised him in the sense that Vitiate turned out to be more powerful then he assumed earlier.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How? The Emperor has been cut off from the outside world for centuries and even to the Dark Council he remains a mystery.

Neither his servitude to Vitiate nor his position on the Dark Council is proof he possesses privy and accurate knowledge on Vitiate's powers.
That information is valid for events prior to Great Galactic War.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He guide the protags? Great. That's called leadership. As the de facto leader of the Sith Empire it is him that everyone is turning to guidance for, that does not make him an authority on the subject, and you've yet failed to prove he is.
My point is that Marr is more reliable authority for Vitiate then Tahiri Veila is for Darth Sidious. Unlike Veila, Marr had the opportunity to meet Vitiate and acquire information about him from within the Empire to formulate an assessment of his power.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nothing is wrong with it, what is demonstrates though is that Marr prior assumptions on the Emperor were false, and he clearly does not wholly understand the Emperor's power as you claimed, otherwise he would not be confused.
How is his earlier assumption false?

"Vitiate maybe more powerful then any of us assumed."

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

This isn't an indication of Vitiate power not being up to the mark, rather an indication of being greater then originally imagined.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless whether Marr is an authority to Vitiate or not is hardly relevant to the debate. Nor is his possible ability to consume the entire galaxy, considering Ziost Vitiate has yet to achieve the power to do so. It's irrelevant.
Vitiate needs sacrifices of billions for a ritual that can be performed to consume the entire galaxy. And he can pull this off by himself as apparent of his actions on Ziost. A single planet is likely to possess billions of life forms.

This is Marr's original assessment:

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy."

From (Darth Marr, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)

It is absolutely correct.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not a convincing argument. Mortis maybe a prison but its internal environment is supposed to be destruction-proof?It's not an argument, its a fact. It is a fact that the power the Ones' possessed posed a considerable threat to the galaxy at large, and it is therefore a fact that they sealed themselves away on Mortis. Irrespective of what we see, it is obvious that Mortis through whatever means, is able to contain their destructive power. Your inability to accept that reality is not my concern.No we don't, proof that Mortis works. But what we do see is the environment on Mortis dramatically and sometimes violently changes in response to their presence. Something, for the record, does not happen when Vitiate swans about.Here's another reason:
Your "revelation" didn't reveal anything, you just spammed a random quote and expected me to be amazed.

Sorry, but I'm not feeling particular enlightened.
Translation: Vitiate needs power he currently does not possess to consume the entire galaxy. Great.

Unfortunately until he achieves that power, he is not on par with the Ones. And sadly, he never will.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Finally all of the Ones possess the ability to shut off lightsabers. Vitiate, evidently, does not:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KrZPp8.gif

/debate

A poor comparison. Anakin killed the Son with a lightsaber when his power had faded and he was preoccupied. Similarly Vitiate's power was exhausted and he wasn't given the opportunity to try to block the Hero's lightsaber.

Not that I'm suggesting Vitiate could shrug off lightsabers, just pointing out that your comparison is shit.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't recall saying the Father is all knowing, I recall saying that the Father is in tune with the cosmic balance of the galaxy, and therefore would be aware of those who would effect it.
And this doesn't conflicts with my point that the Father was trying to manipulate Anakin Skywalker. The Father was dying and he found a suitable replacement in the aforementioned Skywalker.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He did after all know of the existence of Anakin Skywalker, and brought him to Mortis.
He didn't knew about Anakin Skywalker. He conducted a test to verify the theory that Anakin was The Chosen One among the Jedi.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Really is ridiculous to believe that the Father, whose practical role is to maintain balance in the Force, would be unaware of a vastly powerful dark sider who plans to consume the entire galaxy.
He is unlikely to know the reasons behind such imbalances. He would send distress signals from Mortis to lure in potential visitors and interact with them. This is how Xendor was able to meet him centuries earlier then Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Prove it.
See the revelation from Legends continuity.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I said nothing Vitiate has done is as profound. None of this is a demonstration of tearing the very fabric of the galaxy apart by virtue of one's existence, nor is it proof that Vitiate was a fulcrum for the Force and an essential aspect of it whose mere death could cause a considerable shift.
Prove that The Ones were able to destroy galaxies with mere presence.

Influence of The Ones on the cosmic Force is also not much profound in the larger picture. The balance of the Force had been disrupted during PT era:

Yoda: Blind we are, of creation of this clone army we could not see.

Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.

Yoda: Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

Taken from Star Wars: Attack of the Clones

What does this revelation imply?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Try again.
You try again.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If your going to state Vitiate has parity with the Ones, provide proof not baseless assertions.
Vitiate had torn the very fabric of the cosmic Force apart around Nathema and Ziost.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Was the Emperor occupied with other actions throughout the entirety of their duel?

Was he occupied with other actions here?

http://share.gifyoutube.com/Ke0zqZ.gif

I wasn't aware Vitiate required so much concentration to walk.
This is red herring.

Vitiate was unleashing Force Lightning on Hero of Tython with both hands while approaching him. In the heat of this moment, HoT managed to strike him down. Vitiate was not in the position to tank a lightsaber in these circumstances. And Vitiate had already lost much of his power during the time of this confrontation.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fact is conventional weaponry has prove useless against the Ones, but Vitiate has demonstrate to be vulnerable to it.
Vitiate have found a way to circumvent it anyhow:

And as he does not appear to have any manner of physical form, he cannot be restrained or destroyed by conventional means.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)

Now tell me that how the Daughter is supposed to contend with formless Vitiate.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
A poor comparison. Anakin killed the Son with a lightsaber when his power had faded and he was preoccupied. Similarly Vitiate's power was exhausted and he wasn't given the opportunity to try to block the Hero's lightsaber.

Not that I'm suggesting Vitiate could shrug off lightsabers, just pointing out that your comparison is shit. As I said to Legend, Vitiate had ample time to deactive the HoT's lightsaber throughout that confrontation, I just find this scene entertaining. stick out tongue

Still, Vitiate was not distracted, he chose to attack with lightning.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
The only ones who coul defeat the daughter are The Father, The Son, Abeloth and anakin Skywalker. By extension as Luke became what anakin was supposed to become I would say Luke could also defeat them.
Vitiate's showings are on par with those of Abeloth. Your point is moot.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
With that alone vitiate can't defeat her as she is known as one of the most powerful force weilders the u inverse will ever see.
Big deal? Vitiate is in the same boat.

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

&

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Also she was able to stalemate the son someone who is basically the dark side in carnet meaning he is the most powerful dark sider (purely). It goes like this The Son>Sidious>Vitiate. So if Sidious can't do it than what hope does Vitate have.
It doesn't goes like that.

"The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance." - The Emperor's Wrath

The Ones are the most powerful Force-users in canon but Vitiate and Sidious (DE) are not part of canon continuity.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And this doesn't conflicts with my point that the Father was trying to manipulate Anakin Skywalker. The Father was dying and he found a suitable replacement in the aforementioned Skywalker.Which you have failed to prove. Nowhere are we given reason to believe the Father is lying.
The fact that he knew the Chosen One was among the Jedi is proof he knew about Anakin Skywalker lol. He may not have known his exact identity, but he knew he existed, he could only have done so by sensing his presence.

The fact that he makes such a broad and bold claim suggests he is aware of the larger galaxy and the powerful beings within it.
What is this supposed to prove? And Xendor discovered the planet by his own initiative I believe.Not only does your "revelation" prove diddly squat, but its not even relevant to this topic.
You can read yes? The Father claimed as much and his claim has been verified by a canon source. You've yet to invalidate either.
That Sidious > Vitiate. no expression
Lol cute.No, he drained the living Force from Nathema and Ziost. Both planets remained intact.

Draining living Force of some planets =/= tearing the apart the very fabric of the universe.How? Vitiate had ample time to deactivate the HoT's weapon and he did not. If we was as powerful as the Ones, he would have deactivated his weapon before he attacked. He didn't. And he died as a result.The Ones could deactivate lightsabers with ease, this is no excuse.
By banishing him with a Wall of Light...

Trocity
I love when Legend gets trashed.

So much irony, so many double standards.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which you have failed to prove. Nowhere are we given reason to believe the Father is lying.
Here:

In these reliefs, Abeloth stood alone in the courtyard, watching the Father depart with the Son and Daughter. Her face was contorted in anger, and the air around her was whirling with fronds and jungle reptiles and lightning. In the panels that followed, she looked even more deranged. The courtyard was overrun with vegetation, and a large winged lizard was struggling to escape her grasp, its eyes wide with terror, it wings straining as it struggled to pull its foot out of her hand.

Taken from (Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse)

You have memory issues or you don't pay attention?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The fact that he knew the Chosen One was among the Jedi is proof he knew about Anakin Skywalker lol. He may not have known his exact identity, but he knew he existed, he could only have done so by sensing his presence.
The legend of The Chosen One is ancient in its origins. The Father may have known about this legend from earlier visitors.

Mysterious message! A transmission has been intercepted far beyond the Outer Rim, deep in the Chrelythiumn system. Why the call has been made, and from where cannot be established. But buried in the message is a Jedi distress code that has not been used in over 2,000 years.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Overlords)

The highlighted part implies that the distress signal may have been intercepted in ancient times at some point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What is this supposed to prove? And Xendor discovered the planet by his own initiative I believe.
My point is that the Father is unlikely to be all-knowing. Xendor may have intercepted the distress signal of Mortis.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not only does your "revelation" prove diddly squat, but its not even relevant to this topic.
I can sense the butthurt in you.

Provide solid evidence that The Ones were able to destroy galaxies with mere presence as per your claim. Till then, you don't have a point, only Father's unsubstantiated claim to rely upon.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You can read yes? The Father claimed as much and his claim has been verified by a canon source. You've yet to invalidate either.
Its not much of a proof and it is contradicted in another source.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That Sidious > Vitiate. no expression
No, this is not the point. You claimed that The Ones had profound impact on the cosmic Force. If this is indeed the case, then how come the balance of the Force shifted due to external developments?

Vitiate have superior feats then your precious Sidious.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol cute.
Still waiting for solid evidence.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No, he drained the living Force from Nathema and Ziost. Both planets remained intact.

Draining living Force of some planets =/= tearing the apart the very fabric of the universe.
And what am I saying? I am talking about the Force, not planets.

REPEAT:

Vitiate had torn the very fabric of the cosmic Force apart around Nathema and Ziost.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How? Vitiate had ample time to deactivate the HoT's weapon and he did not. If we was as powerful as the Ones, he would have deactivated his weapon before he attacked. He didn't. And he died as a result.

The Ones could deactivate lightsabers with ease, this is no excuse.
Inferior Force-users have performed these feats so power isn't much relevant. Vitiate may not have concentrated much on this matter or his lack of showing is indication of PIS.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
By banishing him with a Wall of Light...
Prove that Wall of Light can stop Vitiate. And prove that Daughter have knowledge of this technique.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Trocity
I love when Legend gets trashed.

So much irony, so many double standards.
If trashing comprises of ignoring and dodging points and taking claims of favorite characters at face value but not those of others, then yes.

Stigma

S_W_LeGenD

Stigma
LeGenD, you're not a debater LOL. You're a SWTORetard. Now off you go on ignore.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Stigma
LeGenD, you're not a debater LOL. You're a SWTORetard. Now off you go on ignore.
Such a cry baby. Puts people on ignore for disagreements on matters of fiction. Coward.

Originally posted by Emperordmb 4
Whether a troll or a moron, the result is the same: an opinion not worth considering.
Mind your language.

This thread is about the Daughter and her capabilities, feats, and content will be brought into question and scrutinized just like other characters.

Trocity
LOL Stigma ownin

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Trocity
LOL Stigma ownin
This is an example of trolling, mind you. His participation in debate is lacking. You own someone in a debate, not with trolling and stupidity.

He is insecure cry baby.

If he assumes that The Ones cannot be contested then why the hell he bothered to make this thread? Was this supposed to be a bait?

And when the discussion happened, he put the opposition on the ignore. Brilliant.

The_Tempest
Can't help but notice LeGenD's argument is saturated with double standards and a peculiar emphasis on feats... mmm

Nephthys
Stigma is much more of a troll than Legend. Like it or not, Legend is sincere in his stances.

The_Tempest
Neph, you've made exactly 2 posts in this thread and each one has been a thinly-veiled defense of LeGenD.

If you don't restrain yourself, one might begin to think you share his opinions. erm

S_W_LeGenD
We have these debates due to inconsistencies in official disclosures.

In one source, it is stated that The Ones migrated to the Mortis because they could harm the galaxy. In another source, it is stated that The Ones migrated to Mortis due to Abeloth. This is a contradiction.

Now coming towards on-screen depictions, the Jedi are able to tolerate powers of the Son. The Ones aren't demonstrated damaging the environment of Mortis either while fighting each other.

Yet some members harbor the belief that The Ones can destroy galaxies because the Father said so.

In the nutshell, Star Wars is mostly devoid of logic.

At the least, Vitiate's story and depiction is much more logical. He is stated to grow in power with passage of time by virtue of draining others. And his demonstrations co-align with his progression.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, you've made exactly 2 posts in this thread and each one has been a thinly-veiled defense of LeGenD.

If you don't restrain yourself, one might begin to think you share his opinions. erm

I've barely even read this thread, I don't even know what Legends stance is.

Stigma
Originally posted by Nephthys
Stigma is much more of a troll than Legend. Like it or not, Legend is sincere in his stances.
Neph, the fact that you and I differ on the proper placement of Bane and co. does not make me a troll, but it makes you wrong wink

Apart from that... carry on thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I've barely even read this thread, I don't even know what Legends stance is.

You barely read the thread and still found a very specific remark of Beni's to nitpick in a dense wall of text? mmm

Not buying it, my man.

Stigma
Neph's sincerity is in question tbh.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stigma
Neph, the fact that you and I differ on the proper placement of Bane and co. does not make me a troll, but it makes you wrong wink

Apart from that... carry on thumb up

I agree that it doesn't make you a troll. Your thinly veiled and open antagonism is what makes you a troll.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You barely read the thread and still found a very specific remark of Beni's to nitpick in a dense wall of text? mmm

Not buying it, my man.

I noticed the gif while skimming.

Stigma
I am hurt by these remarks, Neph. I thought you knew I love you? sad

Nephthys
I regard you with immense distaste.

Stigma
Originally posted by Nephthys
I regard you with immense distaste.
So cruel.

S_W_LeGenD
So now Neph is answerable to others for his opinion?

The_Tempest
Neph is free to opine whatever he wants. It's not like anyone here will report anyone else for unflattering opinions.

FreshestSlice
I can't help but notice how M-A-D LeGenD is right now. Did something happen?

The_Tempest
Beni yelled at him.

Stigma
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph is free to opine whatever he wants. It's not like anyone here will report anyone else for unflattering opinions.
LOL i c wut u did there. thumb up

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Beni yelled at him.
I haven't seen this kind of meltdown here in a while. That Beni is a saint, he is.

S_W_LeGenD
If The Ones are all-powerful undisputed champions of the Star Wars, why consider them for versus scenarios?

What is the purpose of this thread? The thread starter didn't participate in the debate, he just sowed the seeds of discord.

FreshestSlice
Considering the very first post you made in this thread was just a bunch of butthurt bitching, I don't think you have the right to criticize anyone for sowing discord and not want to even pretend to debate with you.

Beniboybling

DarthAnt66
The Daughter's mere presence probably wins, tbh.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Considering the very first post you made in this thread was just a bunch of butthurt bitching, I don't think you have the right to criticize anyone for sowing discord and not want to even pretend to debate with you.
Labeling people fangirl is provoking action now? It is was not said to provoke someone.

You should calm down.

ares834
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Newer sources always take precedence over older sources in reliability aspect.

Not if the older source is a higher source of canon. Which it is.

Vitiate gets his ass kicked by a little girl.

carthage
Originally posted by Nephthys
Stigma is much more of a troll than Legend. Like it or not, Legend is sincere in his stances.

Considering you regularly post the same nonsense Legend does, you're not exactly innocent yourself

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Labeling people fangirl is provoking action now? It is was not said to provoke someone.

What the ****...

...are you talking about?

Deflect all you want. The only one who needs to calm down is you. You're the only one personally invested in this thread in anyway.

EmperorSidious2
The Daughter stomps. Not even Sidious could defeat her I believe. So if I have doubt about this, vitiate gets slaughtered 10/10 times.

Lord Stark
Lol at Legend. If the Son could give a perfect vision of the future (Anakin's defeat on Mustafar, destruction of Alderan, Sidious becoming Emperor, ect.) The Father not only knew of Anakin's existence, but also his ultimate fate. He likely knew of Vitiate.

Not to mention, I think that if Vitiate were as powerful as the Ones, and unable to be stopped by Mortals, the Ones would likely intervene as they do whenever Abeloth escapes.

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
FOTJ Confirms that the Ones are what the Celestials became.
What does this means?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I do find it interesting that you are using a source that says Celestials>Vitiate though.
Did I miss something? Where it is stated in the FOTJ series that Celestials > Vitiate?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
The Daughter stomps. Not even Sidious could defeat her I believe. So if I have doubt about this, vitiate gets slaughtered 10/10 times.
How is the Daughter going to fight a formless Vitiate? Care to elaborate?

It is stated in SWTOR that formless Vitiate cannot be restrained or destroyed by conventional methods/means.

DarthAnt66
If they can break the fabric of the universe, they can beat spirit!Vitiate. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
He was the guy put in charge of continuity among sources. I'm pretty sure his statements outweigh your opinion.
He doesn't responds to queries pertaining to power of Vitiate. Why would I take him seriously? His opinion is not the law.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
TCW is still applicable to the legends continuity as well.
Maybe, but TCW Mortis based episodes came out before the release of SWTOR Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
confirmed by The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
Contradicted by FOTJ series.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
None as powerful as Talzin.
Based on?

Vitiate would make Talzin his b****.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
She's certainly aware of his Force Storms. Plus, Luke said Abeloth used the force with greater power than he ever did, and Luke has achieved oneness twice and wielded his and Leia's power to vanquish DE Sidious with a wall of light.
Abeloth is more powerful then Luke Skywalker, I don't disagree with this. However, my point of contention is that Tahiri Veila likely felt overwhelmed from her experiences with Abeloth. I am sure that she wouldn't enjoy experiencing a Force Storm either.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If they can break the fabric of the universe, they can beat spirit!Vitiate. thumb up
IF is the key word.

Selenial
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Contradicted by FOTJ series.

I thought newer sources took precedent...?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
I thought newer sources took precedent...?
FOTJ Apocalypse came out in March while SWTVG Updated and Expanded came out in April, so I doubt that the author of the latter source had the time to read this novel and make amendments in his book in such a short span. SWTVG doesn't covers Abeloth.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What does this means?


Did I miss something? Where it is stated in the FOTJ series that Celestials > Vitiate?


How is the Daughter going to fight a formless Vitiate? Care to elaborate?

It is stated in SWTOR that formless Vitiate cannot be restrained or destroyed by conventional methods/means.

She is The Daughter. I doubt anything vitiate has would threaten her. He may be powerful, but she was able to stalemate the Son someone greater than vitiate, so solid form or not, vitiate is going down and hey here's something you should be familiar with is that her abilities are above any others with the exception of the other ones and Abeloth so she should be able to mind rape vitiate.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In one source, it is stated that The Ones migrated to the Mortis because they could harm the galaxy. In another source, it is stated that The Ones migrated to Mortis due to Abeloth. This is a contradiction.And where exactly is that stated?

In that quote from FOTJ you provided? Seriously? You think your interpretation of some murals trumps or even begins to contradict a canon statement? roll eyes (sarcastic)

That excerpt from FOTJ doesn't contradict anything. It depicts the Ones abandoning Mortis as a result of Abeloth's actions, and stranding her there. But that is all that can be inferred. It is a leap in logic and assumption on your part to believe this was the reason they came to Mortis. These are two separate events which you are assuming are connected, but that assumption contradicts canon, so take it elsewhere please.I don't remember the Father having any visions...Speculating? No. I'm validating the Father's claim. The Father claims that he and his children can wield the Force like no other, not nobody he's ever met, no other. This suggests awareness of Force users in outside galaxy and all and any powerful inhabitants in it. The Father has the means to acquire this knowledge, we therefore have no reason to doubt his claim.Oh so it's hyperbole now? What next I wonder? I fail to see what could be considered hyperbolic about "tear the very fabric of our universe", seems pretty literal to me.

Abeloth was imprisoned by the Ones to protect the rest of the galaxy, and the Ones only left Mortis to repress her when she escaped. In time we can't say what Abeloth could have done to the galaxy, because she was killed.Nobody said they could control the Force, but it is evident their influence on it surpasses others, Sidious' influence on the Force does not dispute this.Your understanding is incorrect and misinformed, check out the intro to my blog:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/beniboybling/blog/understanding-the-nature-of-force-ghosts-sith-spir/105225/

TL;DR The Force is comprised of two parts, living Force energy and cosmic Force energy. The living Force sustains all living things, as the name suggests. The cosmic Force gives cohesion to matter, and governs time and space.

Last time I checked the matter on Ziost and Nathema remained intact, space and time still flow. Vitiate didn't harm the cosmic Force in any way.Deflecting a lightsaber with your hands is not the same as disable it with a wave of one's hand. Nor is sucking out its energy. And many if not most lightsabers have a pressure grip which causes the lightsaber to be deactivated if grip on it lost. So that is not the same either.

Try again.It worked on the spirit of Exar Kun, and various other dark side phenemoma, it eradicates the dark side, so what reason do we have to believe it won't work? Some baseless assumptions perhaps?

The Son was evidently too powerful, and is more powerful than Vitiate.

Did you miss the part that she is an embodiment of the light? What reason do we have to believe she hasn't mastered this power?Your confused. Ant was rightly implying that Vitiate would immediately realise his gross inferiority to the Daughter and promptly flee/commit suicide, giving the Daughter the win.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
FOTJ Apocalypse came out in March while SWTVG Updated and Expanded came out in April, so I doubt that the author of the latter source had the time to read this novel and make amendments in his book in such a short span. SWTVG doesn't covers Abeloth. Because LucasBooks doesn't have access to Star Wars material prior to it being published. And there doesn't exist a team of individuals who coordinate and align continuity. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Bearing in mind that TCW, which established that fact, was released prior to FOTJ, and FOTJ was made in the context of it. Hence why there is no contradiction.

Angelalex242
More to the point, I'm not even convinced Vitiate can take Luke, let alone Daughter.

Luke may or may not need Oneness to pull it off, but he certainly can. Because ultimately, the Dark just plain is not stronger then the Light.

By word of Ep 5 Yoda.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Nephthys
Stigma is much more of a troll than Legend. Like it or not, Legend is sincere in his stances.
thumb up

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree that it doesn't make you a troll. Your thinly veiled and open antagonism is what makes you a troll.
thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is the purpose of this thread? The thread starter didn't participate in the debate, he just sowed the seeds of discord.
You just answered your own question right there.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He doesn't responds to queries pertaining to power of Vitiate. Why would I take him seriously? His opinion is not the law.
Because they put him in charge of keeping track of continuity...


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Contradicted by FOTJ series.
Not really. Abeloth was only the reason they withdrew from the Maw. Abeloth was trapped in the Maw. They did not need to withdraw from the entire galaxy because of Abeloth. They withdrew from the Maw because of Abeloth, and then they withdrew from the galaxy to avoid wrecking the universe.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Based on?

Vitiate would make Talzin his b****.
Based on her holding her own against Sidious, which is subsequently the reason I disagree with the assertion after your question.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Abeloth is more powerful then Luke Skywalker, I don't disagree with this. However, my point of contention is that Tahiri Veila likely felt overwhelmed from her experiences with Abeloth. I am sure that she wouldn't enjoy experiencing a Force Storm either.
Correction, Abeloth has more power than Luke ever had, including Luke in a state of oneness, and Luke wielding his own power and Leia's power when they bested DE Sidious.

So are you disregarding Tahiri's statements about Abeloth and Sidious, both of whom she is clearly aware of, yet you are also considering Marr's statement about Vitiate being the most powerful being in the Galaxy to mean Vitiate>The Ones, even though Marr doesn't know jack shit about the Ones?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What does this means?
It means the Ones are essentially evolved Celestials.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did I miss something? Where it is stated in the FOTJ series that Celestials > Vitiate?
You were quoting Darth Plagueis, which states in literally the following paragraph that the Sith had not made it more than half way across the bridge to Celestial power, citing Vitiate as an example.

FreshestSlice
It's kind of sad how easy it is to trigger some of you. And Stigma is no troll. LeGenD isn't either, but that really doesn't make Stigma more of one. The fact that someone mocks you doesn't make you a troll.


Anyway, as to actually answer the topic, the Daughter. And it isn't even close.

SunRazer

Selenial
The Killiks had a hive mind that gave them intimate knowledge of the ones, however. What they hypothesize is likely correct...

SunRazer
They're also unable to distinguish between fact and fiction, though I do agree what they say is likely to be correct.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
She is The Daughter. I doubt anything vitiate has would threaten her.
Why not?

Abeloth, a being of similar nature, wasn't immune to Force powers. As an example, Force Drain powers proved to be useful in weakening and eventually neutralizing her avatar.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He may be powerful, but she was able to stalemate the Son someone greater than vitiate, so solid form or not, vitiate is going down and hey here's something you should be familiar with is that her abilities are above any others with the exception of the other ones and Abeloth so she should be able to mind rape vitiate.
He may be powerful? He is stated to have immeasurable power and he have one of the best feats among all.

I am not convinced that the Son is stronger then Vitiate. I have seen nothing from the Son to imply as such. Statements or not, the Son is untested in external environments and his on-screen depictions don't match his hype.

SunRazer
The Son canonically personifies the Dark Side, and the Daughter canonically personifies the Light Side. That's clearly above Vitiate.

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
The Son canonically personifies the Dark Side, and the Daughter canonically personifies the Light Side. That's clearly above Vitiate.
By the same token, Yoda personified the Light Side and Sidious personified the Dark Side. This makes no difference and this is not an argument.

S_W_LeGenD
FOR ALL:

Abeloth may have harmed the galaxy in time.

Vitiate would have harmed the galaxy in time. This is what Darth Marr asserted.

The Ones may have harmed the galaxy in time due to their eternal struggles of dominance amongst themselves.

In time is the key word.

Try to comprehend.

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By the same token, Yoda personified the Light Side and Sidious personified the Dark Side. This makes no difference and this is not an argument.

What? It's not hyperbole, we have multiple quotes stating the Daughter is the very incarnation of the light side itself, hence why her death tips the galaxy towards the dark side.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
What? It's not hyperbole, we have multiple quotes stating the Daughter is the very incarnation of the light side itself, hence why her death tips the galaxy towards the dark side.
They are symbolic accolades. Vitiate also have such accolades under his belt.

And that revelation is false. The Force had been out of balance prior to the events of Mortis depicted during the Clone Wars.

Yoda: Blind we are, of creation of this clone army we could not see.

Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.

Yoda: Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

Taken from Star Wars: Attack of the Clones

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, they're not. The Killiks hypothesized in FotJ that the Ones might have been evolved forms of Celestials, but that's all. Your quote refers to Celestials, which, as I said, does not mean they refer to the Ones. You highlighted "ones" in the text, except the "o" is in lower case - ie. it's just referencing ordinary Celestials, not the Ones.
What do you make of this?

Of course, Admiral. Anyway, all of these early spacefarers were contacted by the species known to us as the Celestials, or sometimes the Architects. We have neither reliable records nor even legends about how the Celestial dominion came to be, but it is clear that they were beings of astonishing power.

Source: http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-essential-guide-to-warfare-authors-cut-the-celestials

And what about the Centerpoint Station? Who constructed it and for what purpose?

Beniboybling

S_W_LeGenD

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What do you make of this?

Of course, Admiral. Anyway, all of these early spacefarers were contacted by the species known to us as the Celestials, or sometimes the Architects. We have neither reliable records nor even legends about how the Celestial dominion came to be, but it is clear that they were beings of astonishing power.

Source: http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-essential-guide-to-warfare-authors-cut-the-celestials

And what about the Centerpoint Station? Who constructed it and for what purpose?

What? This has nothing to do with the Ones.

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They are symbolic accolades. Vitiate also have such accolades under his belt.

And that revelation is false. The Force had been out of balance prior to the events of Mortis depicted during the Clone Wars.

Yoda: Blind we are, of creation of this clone army we could not see.

Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.

Yoda: Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

Taken from Star Wars: Attack of the Clones

No, they're not. Being the personification of the light/dark sides might be hyperbole because it's been used before, but literally stating something as the incarnation of the light side/dark side isn't. You can't just say it's metaphorical or hyperbolic because you don't like it.

I know - it was first tipped by Palpatine and Plagueis' rituals. However, the Daughter's death actually plunged the galaxy (further) towards the dark side.

By the way, Vitiate has only been stated as almost-godlike - the Ones have been stated as canonically godlike. :P

S_W_LeGenD

Beniboybling

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not?

Abeloth, a being of similar nature, wasn't immune to Force powers. As an example, Force Drain powers proved to be useful in weakening and eventually neutralizing her avatar.


He may be powerful? He is stated to have immeasurable power and he have one of the best feats among all.

I am not convinced that the Son is stronger then Vitiate. I have seen nothing from the Son to imply as such. Statements or not, the Son is untested in external environments and his on-screen depictions don't match his hype.

I'm not saying she isn't immune to force attacks but only the son and the father have been able to successfully push her, and anakin the chosen one. Also didn't Abeloth take on Luke and Krayt and almost a dozen of SITH and Jedi at one time, during that reflecting off the effects of the control Webb. She was also able to use TK to blast all of the Jedi and SITH back. So her immunity pretty high.



How come whenever sow one says something about Vitate why do you make a big deal out of it. I said he may be powerful. I'm saying he is powerful but, I admit he's powerful why are you getting so mad about me giving him a compliment?

Ok you have seen enough to know he's a powerful force weilders, also, you have enough information on the son to know he is more powerful. Based on what your saying, you are t convinced the son is more powerful than Dooku. When he stomps Dooku and probably sodious to. He is the embodiment of the dark, the most powerful dark sider of all time. He has out lived vitiate and helped take down abeloth. So what do you need to know a fact.

S_W_LeGenD

MythLord
Pretty sure the Daughter stomps.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Either you consider Legends continuity or Canon continuity for arguments. Picking and choosing from the revelations from both continuities is bad practice. The bottom statement that you cited is part of Legends continuity, from a Legends sourcebook.

If Canon continuity is considered, The Ones are possibly unparalleled.

If Legends continuity is considered, we have Abeloth, Bedlam Spirits, Vitiate, Dark Empire era resurrected Palpatine and perhaps more entities as potential rivals.We are discussing TCW, a Canon source, so of course Canon is being considered. But on what basis are you saying your interpretation of FOTJ (Legends) takes precedence over TCW (Canon)?

But anyway do you plan to explain to be how those referenced statements can be interpreted as semantically hyperbolic or is this a concession?Looks like I'm going to have to quote myselfmessedo why are you bringing up powers he hasn't achieved yet?And the statements made in regards to the Ones take precedence over your interpretation of Abeloth's powers. Fact > Speculation.no expression What's that supposed to mean, care to elaborate?Story element tbh.Your referring to the living Force, life. Tearing the very fabric of the universe apart would be an attack on the cosmic/unifying Force. They are different.You didn't answer my questions:

If he did possess this power, why didn't used it here, to prevent the HoT from raising a lightsaber against him, and eventually strike him down with it?

If Vitiate possessed the power of the Ones. Why didn't he disable their lightsabers before unleashing his attack?

Please do your best to rectify that.So rituals aren't Force powers then?

FreshestSlice
TCW is also a part of Legends, as T, and therefore superior to C, Canon, so it definitely takes precedence.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
We are discussing TCW, a Canon source, so of course Canon is being considered. But on what basis are you saying your interpretation of FOTJ (Legends) takes precedence over TCW (Canon)?
Vitiate is not part of the Canon continuity. Therefore, Canon dictums do not apply to him.

I am considering Legends continuity because Vitiate is part of this continuity and Abeloth serves as a measuring yardstick for The Ones in this continuity. And in this continuity, The Ones are not unparalleled in hype and showings.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But anyway do you plan to explain to be how those referenced statements can be interpreted as semantically hyperbolic or is this a concession?
In Legends continuity, Abeloth represents the benchmark for the capabilities of The Ones in external environments. She haven't demonstrated the capability to harm/destroy the galaxy. She is also stated to be not able to contend with all Jedi in the galaxy, yet she subdued The Son and The Daughter at one point in history in a show of strength. These observations make it clear that The Ones cannot ruin the galaxy with their powers and the statements asserting otherwise are absolutely hyperbolic.

Even in the Canon continuity, we don't see beings destroying planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies. If this would have been the case then what is the point of storytelling? Nothing would be able to stop beings so powerful. They would simply crush anything in their path.

I am being fair in my assessment. If The Ones had feats of destroying galaxies then we wouldn't be having this debate and I would have gladly accepted their superiority, but this isn't the case. I am not unrealistic in real life. However, fiction is a different matter and it always fuels debates due to loopholes, inconsistencies and imperfections.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Looks like I'm going to have to quote myself:
Again, taking his each saying at face value is not a brilliant idea. He could be manipulating Anakin Skywalker with such scary assertions. Characters tend to lie and manipulate just like people in real life. We shouldn't excuse characters from these traits, we should focus on their motives. The Father may or may not be correct. If Legends continuity is considered, he is not correct.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So why are you bringing up powers he hasn't achieved yet?
He is powerful enough to consume all life in the galaxy in time so far. But during the feeding process, he may become powerful enough to ravage the entire galaxy. Therefore, stopping him ASAP is important. I am highlighting this point because Vitiate can achieve such strength on his own. He is like Darth Nihilus, but stable and more powerful.

But if you want to stick to demonstrated actions, then he is powerful enough to consume all life in the galaxy in time. And this is still unprecedented capability and level of power, far greater then that of any mortal.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And the statements made in regards to the Ones take precedence over your interpretation of Abeloth's powers. Fact > Speculation.
My interpretation of Abeloth's powers is based on her officially demonstrated capabilities and defined limitations, I am not making stuff up. Due to this, I find the statement in SWTUVG (Updated and Expanded) about the capabilities of The Ones hyperbolic. Even in canon, we don't see beings destroying planets, stars, solar systems, and galaxies. If such power is on display then storytelling becomes a moot point.

I stick with my interpretations for good reasons.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
no expression What's that supposed to mean, care to elaborate?
I regard this:

No, because it is expliclty stated that actions on Mortis would impact the outside world, and the Daughter's death would give the Sith strength, and you've failed to explain how that can be interpreted symbolically, its a literal fact.

- as a story element.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Story element tbh.
Ok. If we are to regard such developments as story elements then you extend the same to the impact of The Ones on the Force. And we shall drop this point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your referring to the living Force, life. Tearing the very fabric of the universe apart would be an attack on the cosmic/unifying Force. They are different.
Do I give a damn about Darth Plagueis's beliefs? I don't.

The Force is an omnipresent (cosmic) energy field that exists everywhere and binds all life in the Universe. Call it living or whatever, it exists independently of the Midi-chlorians that exist within the biota. I have cited official descriptions of this energy field and it is your responsibility to pay attention to them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You didn't answer my questions:

If he did possess this power, why didn't used it here, to prevent the HoT from raising a lightsaber against him, and eventually strike him down with it?

If Vitiate possessed the power of the Ones. Why didn't he disable their lightsabers before unleashing his attack?

Please do your best to rectify that.
If you want to play by this logic then tell me why The Ones didn't drain/atomize the Jedi.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So rituals aren't Force powers then?
Rituals can be Force powers and other stuff. They are all not the same.

|King Joker|
Hey guys the Son killed Ahsoka with a touch!

He literally put his fingers on her forehead and she died! The Son slays all.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Hey guys the Son killed Ahsoka with a touch!

He literally put his fingers on her forehead and she died! The Son slays all.
And Obi-Wan tolerated a blast of his Force Lightning. Killing Ahsoka like that isn't a big deal, she isn't powerful by Jedi standards.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by 2400 Aside
If I recall correctly, some narration either in an episode of TCW or somewhere on the official site notes them as the most powerful Force users ever.
It is correct for Canon continuity.

Vitiate is stated to be the most powerful Force-user ever in TOR sources that are treated as alternate universe by Disney.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Obi-Wan tolerated a blast of his Force Lightning. Killing Ahsoka like that isn't a big deal, she isn't powerful by Jedi standards. Considering Vitiate has never killed anyone in such a manner, I'd say its pretty impressive.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering Vitiate has never killed anyone in such a manner, I'd say its pretty impressive.
Vitiate have atomized living beings with an expression of Force Drain.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4565804-3.gif

The Ones haven't demonstrated comparable potency.

Beniboybling
Great. But that doesn't change the fact that Vitiate has never killed a person with such ease.

And considering the Ones possessed destructive power that could ruin the galaxy, it hardly means much.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Great. But that doesn't change the fact that Vitiate has never killed a person with such ease.
Look at this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4545452-2202876575-fVnT0.gif

This is a feat from a single host. While performing this act, Vitiate is spending energy on possessing countless individuals on a planet.

Killing a Jedi with a touch won't be an issue for Vitiate, I assure you.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And considering the Ones possessed destructive power that could ruin the galaxy, it hardly means much.
And such power is not demonstrated.

S_W_LeGenD
This official trailer sums up Vitiate's power:

Y0Rpffux6bw

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And such power is not demonstrated. And yet your arguing that Vitiate can kill a person with his touch despite him never demonstrating as such. Double standards are double standards. It is stated they can, and nothing contradicts this fact, so they can.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And yet your arguing that Vitiate can kill a person with his touch despite him never demonstrating as such. Double standards are double standards. It is stated they can, and nothing contradicts this fact, so they can.
Vitiate packs sufficient power to do that. It is not an assumption. He discarded several individuals (including a Force-user) like paper with a single host and he was possessing many hosts while performing this act.

Double standards?

I cited the example of Abeloth to prove your stand wrong. Again, do you have memory issues?

Emperordmb

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Obi-Wan tolerated a blast of his Force Lightning. Killing Ahsoka like that isn't a big deal, she isn't powerful by Jedi standards.

And Kira broke out of Vitiate's Mind Control sad

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Just because TCW is in the Canon continuity doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the Legends continuity. The Holocron Database, which has TCW>SWTORE as a source as far as canon precedence goes is technically a legends source now, ergo the Legends continuity would still be governed by that rule.

If a statement was made in a canon source after the continuity split, it is not applicable to Legends, but anything in a canon source before that split should apply to both continuities.

As it so happens, the TCW narration and Leland Chee statement came out before that continuity split. Their statements still apply to both continuities.
Canon dictums do not apply to Legends continuity because Legends continuity related developments are not part of Canon continuity. As an example, Vitiate does not exists in canon.

The Ones were hyped as the most powerful Force-users prior to introduction and promotion of Vitiate to the mythos.

Release date of Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Altar of Mortis (episode) is February 4, 2011.

Release data of Star Wars: The Old Republic (game) is December 20, 2011.

Vitiate's promotion as the most powerful Force-user became apparent in year 2012.

I know that Mr. Leland Chee regarded The Father as the most powerful Force-user but this could be his personal assumption and his opinion was contradicted in the official literature. Even if we are to assume that the Father was the most powerful Force-user in his prime, his ranking is not valid for The Son and The Daughter.

Since continuity split is the newer official development, it can be assumed that The Ones are likely unparalleled in Canon continuity but have rivals in the Legends continuity.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Apparently they didn't have access to the Dagger of Mortis, which is required to permanently destroy her. Without using the Dagger, she'd just keep coming back.
When was the Dagger of Mortis created?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Choking Darth Tyranus from across the Galaxy says differently.
It is a good feat.

For comparison, consider Vitiate's Children feat. Vitiate shared his essence with hundreds of Force-users whom he planted within enemy ranks including withinn the Jedi Order. Vitiate could use these Force-users as unwitting pwns at will and could activate all of them simultaneously. Not just this but he utilized the First Son (most powerful among the Children) as a conduit to conceal the darkness of his Children from even the Jedi Order for centuries 24/7.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes, they bested DE Sidious using less power than Abeloth wields.
Temporarily.

In one battle, Luke Skywalker single-handedly defeated Abeloth in a cave setting, using the environment to his advantage. So?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
She's certainly familiar with them. Any Jedi post DE whose unaware of Sidious's Force Storms was poorly educated.
It is still a belief.

Some people believe that US army sucks. Is it true?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
It's pretty heavily implied. ie. Abeloth using more power than Luke wielded when besting DE Sidious, and Grand Master Luke viewing her as having powers almost beyond comprehension.
Abeloth certainly holds her own against Sidious (DE) in matters of strength and command of the Force. Never disputed this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And Kira broke out of Vitiate's Mind Control sad
Hero of Tython helped her.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate packs sufficient power to do that. It is not an assumption. He discarded several individuals (including a Force-user) like paper with a single host and he was possessing many hosts while performing this act.The point is a lack of demonstration isn't sufficient proof in itself, which you seem to be falling back to dispute the reality of the Ones' powers.You then failed to prove why that interpretation of yours takes precedence over literal canon statements regarding the Ones' abilities. My memory is quite fine thanks, but it would appear yours has room for improvement, as it's omitted this particular response:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15233662#post15233662

Care to rectify that or shall I start taking concessions?

Stigma
Wow..this thread is still going on cool

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Stigma
Wow..this thread is still going on cool It's both amusing and sad.

Beniboybling
http://www.pulpozaur.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/VIII.gif

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