Kingdom Come Captain Marvel Vs Gladiator

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Golgo13
Who wins?

Star428
Marvel.

carver9
Really Golgo?

zopzop
Didn't KCCM get killed by a nuke (that KCSM was completely unaffected by)?!

I'm going with Gladiator.

tkitna
Gladiator. The good captains magic lightning isn't going to cut it here.

deathslash
Originally posted by zopzop
Didn't KCCM get killed by a nuke (that KCSM was completely unaffected by)?!

I'm going with Gladiator. I'm pretty sure that that very same nuke obliterated hundreds of powerful metahumans and that the guy that proposed that they launch the nuke said that it was specifically designed to withstand and counteract any of the metahuman's powers. Billy was literally right next the bomb when it went off and he more or less stopped it when it was still in the higher part of the atmosphere and it still obliterated almost all of the metahumans. Also, wasn't KCSM transported to the main DC earth right before the bomb went off?

abhilegend
Cap wins easily.

DTM
Is there actually a difference between KC Capt Marvel and regular Capt Marvel? Im a huge fan of KC, love the series, but as far as I can tell Marvel gets his powers from the same exact source there as he does normally, at the same levels. Unlike KC Superman, he hasnt been storing energy for years, which is why KC Superman is stronger than normal Supes.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by DTM
Is there actually a difference between KC Capt Marvel and regular Capt Marvel? Im a huge fan of KC, love the series, but as far as I can tell Marvel gets his powers from the same exact source there as he does normally, at the same levels. Unlike KC Superman, he hasnt been storing energy for years, which is why KC Superman is stronger than normal Supes.

He was also more ruthless, and less 'Billy'.

Insane Titan
Cap stomps easily

DTM
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He was also more ruthless, and less 'Billy'.

Well, he was more crazy, not necessarily more ruthless. smile

This fight is basically Gladiator vs. Capt Marvel, if anything it being KC means hes not in his right mind, which usually hurts fighters in comic fights.

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
Didn't KCCM get killed by a nuke (that KCSM was completely unaffected by)?!

I'm going with Gladiator. Didn't he presumably "Shazam!, Shazam!, Shazam!" back into regular ol' Billy when the nuke detonated? That's always been how I interpreted it. Marvel was depicted/described as Superman's equal in every way, after all, so it's hard for me to imagine him being inextricably vaporized by a county-busting blast that Superman tanked. /shrug

DTM
In the novel, and audio book, for KC, Capt Marvel was more an annoyance to Superman, a temporary hinderance, blocking him but not actually hurting him (until he called down the lightning that is, which at the time was a brand new ability for CM).

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Galan007
Didn't he presumably "Shazam!, Shazam!, Shazam!" back into regular ol' Billy when the nuke detonated? That's always been how I interpreted it. Marvel was depicted/described as Superman's equal in every way, after all, so it's hard for me to imagine him being inextricably vaporized by a county-busting blast that Superman tanked. /shrug

True. He shouted it three times - that would have turned him into Billy.

So Billy died from the nuke, not Cap:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/100692/1981035-captain_marvel_kc_bomb.png

riv6672
We're getting some nice synopses of Kingdom Come over a couple of threads; cool.

But yeah, Captain Marvel wins.

Estacado
Cap.
Can Gladiator beat any of the "Superman copies" at all?

Star428
+**Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True. He shouted it three times - that would have turned him into Billy.

So Billy died from the nuke, not Cap



If that were true, then Superman wouldn't have had CM's cape to hang on the flagpole at the UN would he?

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Estacado
Cap.
Can Gladiator beat any of the "Superman copies" at all?

I think he stands a good chance against regular Captain Atom, Superboy (Kon) and Hyperion but KC CM wins easily.

Galan007
Originally posted by Star428
If that were true, then Superman wouldn't have had CM's cape to hang on the flagpole at the UN would he? Superman ripped Marvel's cape off just prior to the detonation:
http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/23235581_Kingdom_Come_004-025.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/23235582_Kingdom_Come_004-026.jpg

DarkSaint85
Was about to say, the scan I posted even shows Marvel without his cape....

riv6672
Same thing i was going to point out in the scan.

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Didn't he presumably "Shazam!, Shazam!, Shazam!" back into regular ol' Billy when the nuke detonated? That's always been how I interpreted it. Marvel was depicted/described as Superman's equal in every way, after all, so it's hard for me to imagine him being inextricably vaporized by a county-busting blast that Superman tanked. /shrug
If you're correct and he was vaporized only because he turned back into Billy, I change my answer to :
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Cap stomps easily

riv6672
Why did you use such a high pitched voice to say it? wink

DTM
I dont know about CM being Billy when the bomb went off. That wasnt shown or hinted at at all in the story, not in text or illustration. Id say he screamed SHAZAM 3 times more for dramatic effect, over them suggesting it was Billy who was killed there, not CM.

riv6672
I like the the Bully theory better.
As many times as him saying Shazam has been a plot point in his stories, both classic and modern, that cant have been a coincidence.

Sin I AM
Billy died not cap. Cap stomps

riv6672
Yrs and yes IMO.

Time Immemorial
Go to the bar already, lush.

Blue Area Vet
Gladiator, easily. Far better trained and likely stronger based on feats.

Sin I AM
Got some h2h scans that show his skillz

deathslash
Originally posted by DTM
I dont know about CM being Billy when the bomb went off. That wasnt shown or hinted at at all in the story, not in text or illustration. Id say he screamed SHAZAM 3 times more for dramatic effect, over them suggesting it was Billy who was killed there, not CM. thumb up It wasn't said even once that Cap reverted to Billy. However, it was said that the bomb was specifically designed for killing metahumans and even characters like Donna Troy and Power Woman (Power Girl) died when it hit them. I think that there's enough evidence to conclude that it was the bomb itself that killed batson.

cdtm
Originally posted by DTM
I dont know about CM being Billy when the bomb went off. That wasnt shown or hinted at at all in the story, not in text or illustration. Id say he screamed SHAZAM 3 times more for dramatic effect, over them suggesting it was Billy who was killed there, not CM.

He was using his super speed to avoid the lightning every time he called it on Superman.m

DTM
Yes, I know that, when did I say otherwise? smile

As for it being Billy dying over CM, I dont see it personally, nice theory, but not one that was shown or hinted at in the actual story.

Galan007
He screamed "Shazam, Shazam, Shazam", and didn't move away before the lightning struck. That doesn't imply that he was transformed back to Billy, iyo?

Prof. T.C McAbe
Fact is, he turns back to Billy when he screams Shazam. He said it three times and he started as CM, so
1. CM turns to Billy
2. Billy Turns to CM
3. CM turns to Billy
Billy is dead.

DTM
Originally posted by Galan007
He screamed "Shazam, Shazam, Shazam", and didn't move away before the lightning struck. That doesn't imply that he was transformed back to Billy, iyo?

No, not at all. There was no mention from anyone that it was Billy who died, nor visually showing of Marvel turning to Billy at the last second (both of which would have been easy enough for the writer or artist to do). Heck, by your reasoning, Marvel should have turned to Billy, then back to Marvel, then again to Billy before he died, yet we clearly saw that wasnt the case. Of course this is speculation, on both of our parts, Im going by what I see, as you are yours, though as no one actually involved in KC ever mentioned that CM turned into Billy at the end, Ill stick with whats actually shown in the story. smile

DTM
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Fact is, he turns back to Billy when he screams Shazam. He said it three times and he started as CM, so
1. CM turns to Billy
2. Billy Turns to CM
3. CM turns to Billy
Billy is dead.

Yet we never saw CM turn to Billy, nor Billy turn to CM, in that scene. Something that if the writer meant it to be, the aritst could easily have illustrated it as such.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DTM
Yet we never saw CM turn to Billy, nor Billy turn to CM, in that scene. Something that if the writer meant it to be, the aritst could easily have illustrated it as such.

It was just one picture in a whole page, you think it would add to the story to see him turn to CM back again and so on? This is kind of unecessary.

DTM
Alex Ross could have Easily drawn it as such, using panels showing the back to back transformation, if it was meant to be so. Yes, that could have been shown in the story, but it wasnt, nor was it even hinted at.

DTM
If we want to feel better about Marvels durability, we could say that him being at Ground Zero of the blast caused him much more damage, and that it was a special futuristic nuclear bomb (supposedly designed to use against superhumans), could also be a reason why he was killed. That is at least as plausible as him turning to Billy and it being him who as killed, if not moreso.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DTM
Alex Ross could have Easily drawn it as such, using panels showing the back to back transformation, if it was meant to be so. Yes, that could have been shown in the story, but it wasnt, nor was it even hinted at.

No one shows everything, we don't see Hulk transform every time, nor Superman change his socks, I mean, seriously?

DTM
Come now, thats hardly a fair comparison.

My point is simple, if the creators of KC wanted us to believe it was Billy who died from the bomb, and not CM, they easily could have put something there, either visual or in writing, to suggest or state that. They didnt, there is literally no mention or hinting of this in the story.

-K-M-
In convergence KC Marvel beat pre-52 Martian Manhunter for what it's worth

leonidas
i'd take cm for a slight majority.

Galan007
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Fact is, he turns back to Billy when he screams Shazam. He said it three times and he started as CM, so
1. CM turns to Billy
2. Billy Turns to CM
3. CM turns to Billy
Billy is dead. I agree.

Originally posted by DTM
Come now, thats hardly a fair comparison.

My point is simple, if the creators of KC wanted us to believe it was Billy who died from the bomb, and not CM, they easily could have put something there, either visual or in writing, to suggest or state that. They didnt, there is literally no mention or hinting of this in the story. The 'hint' is the amount of times he screamed "SHAZAM!", coupled with the fact that he didn't avoid the subsequent lightning.

...And it's a pretty blatant hint at that, imo.

deathslash
Originally posted by -K-M-
In convergence KC Marvel beat pre-52 Martian Manhunter for what it's worth is there a single character that couldn't beat pre 52 manjobber?

Mindset
Originally posted by Galan007
He screamed "Shazam, Shazam, Shazam", and didn't move away before the lightning struck. That doesn't imply that he was transformed back to Billy, iyo? No.

riv6672
Wow. Just wow at your refusal to concede a point.
At least 3 posters have broken it down for you very succinctly.

DTM
I too dont believe CM was Billy when he was killed in KC, though as that topic is detracting from the CM vs Gladiator post here, I decided to hold fire on continuing to debate it. smile

iceman24567
From what i can tell it was Billy that died

JBL
Beats me why CM would change back and forth, seems kind of stupid because it helps nothing. Did he say it three times to let the lightning strike the bomb and destroy/set it off????

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by JBL
Beats me why CM would change back and forth, seems kind of stupid because it helps nothing. Did he say it three times to let the lightning strike the bomb and destroy/set it off????

If he doesn't avoid the lightning, every time he calls it down, he will turn. Hence the use of it as a weapon (which I believe, he used for the first time in Kingdom Come). Before Kingdom Come, he had never used the 'call it down then use my speed to avoid it' trick.

In KC, he used it as a weapon to blow the nuke up. And stacked three lightning strikes on top of each other.

riv6672
^^^thats what i got from it.

And, DTM is right. Subject dropped.

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