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Father and Son vs. the Ancient Sith

Battle takes place on neutral ground

Luke is killed with a saber.

I'd say vader is the best swordsman of these four. Kun definitely has the better weapon. Of Luke can hold off Ulic than vaders team wins because vader can definitely defeat Kun in a pure saber battle.

Nice thread.

At this point in time Luke's best feat is matching/beating Vader.

Likewise, Ulic's best feat is matching Exar.

It boils down to who you think is a better swordsman, Vader or Exar.

I'd say vader. He has more styles at his command, however Kun has the better weapon. Vader is probably more experienced as he spent 15+ years fighting Jedi. Vader is much stronger but Kun is faster. However vader can match the speeds of a faster duelist.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I'd say vader. He has more styles at his command, however Kun has the better weapon. Vader is probably more experienced as he spent 15+ years fighting Jedi. Vader is much stronger but Kun is faster. However vader can match the speeds of a faster duelist.

How do you figure? I thought Niman requires mastery of all forms except Vaapad/Juyo and Makashi.

Also I think Exar has the edge duelist wise.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
How do you figure? I thought Niman requires mastery of all forms except Vaapad/Juyo and Makashi.

Also I think Exar has the edge duelist wise.

Not sure, but I think you're confusing it with Juyo, which requires high level mastery of multiple forms. Niman is just a balanced form with no particular weakness or strenght.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
How do you figure? I thought Niman requires mastery of all forms except Vaapad/Juyo and Makashi.

Also I think Exar has the edge duelist wise.

Nyman is a form by itself. It's a jack of all trades. It incorporates elements from each style however not required mastery of it. Practioners of this style have encompassed different ELEMNETS OF THE PRECEDDING styles but they haven't mastered any. Vader has mastered every form including niman while Kun has only mastered niman. So he is more versatile. He also most likely has more experience fighting lightsaber duelist. He's also stronger and can counter Kuns speed. Vader has more endurance so if it's that type of duel vader will win.

So I say vader wins as I believe he is the superior duelist in every aspect except for weaponry.

Exar doesn't use Niman like a Jedi

Originally posted by carthage
Exar doesn't use Niman like a Jedi



Team 2, great fight.

Team 2.

I always interpreted Exar's "Niman" to be the Jar'Kai sort of Niman, not the diplomatic/balanced Form VI, which he really doesn't fight anything like.

It's a good fight because Ulic is comparable to Luke as a swordsman and Exar was his match, but Vader and Luke ultimately win.

Vader is the best fighter on the field and should ultimately prevail as long as Luke can prevent him from getting doubleteamed.

Exar Kun is completely different to anyone Vader has faced, Vader however has a traditional Form V core stance, something Kun has plenty of experience with.
Luke by extension knows even less, skill is important but so is knowledge and technical mastery, Luke is simply out of his depth.

Ancient Sith take this.

Luke's amazing potential should bridge any gap of skill, and his own speed feats/defeat of Vader should put him well within the skill tier of Ulic/Exar.

Vader vs. Kun can go either way.

Actually nevermind, Team OT.

People, vader is obviously the greater of the two in sabers and Luke was able to overwhelm vader who IMO was holding back against Luke in their duel. However he was able to disarm him and overwhelm him. With that Kun can hold his own however he can't defeat vader in a pure saber off.

Originally posted by carthage
Luke's amazing potential should bridge any gap of skill, and his own speed feats/defeat of Vader should put him well within the skill tier of Ulic/Exar.

Vader vs. Kun can go either way.

Oh my, this is funny.

Exar Kun can certainly defeat him:

Speed: Roughly equal.
Strength: Roughly equal.
Stamina: Exar Kun.
Durability: Darth Vader.
Lightsaber skill: Roughly equal.
Technical mastery: Darth Vader.
Battle Precognition: Exar Kun.
Weapon: Exar Kun.
Form advantage: Exar Kun.
Battle Record: Exar Kun.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun can certainly defeat him:

Speed: Roughly equal.
Strength: Roughly equal.
Stamina: Exar Kun.
Durability: Darth Vader.
Lightsaber skill: Roughly equal.
Technical mastery: Darth Vader.
Battle Precognition: Exar Kun.
Weapon: Exar Kun.
Form advantage: Exar Kun.
Battle Record: Exar Kun.

Yes to the first.
Vader IMO is stronger.
Vader has the greater stamina IMO as his suit does help his oxygen intake and stamina levels.
Yes to fourth
I'd give vader the edge in lightsaber skill as he's more experienced and overall more complete
Yes to the 7th
Yes to the 8th
Vader has more styles at his command and actaually a greater hold over them with Kun having an edge in niman
Vader a battle record isn't bad either.

Remember, Vader's record includes destroying a crapton of piker jedi. Typically against superior numbers. And Darth Maul in that one comic. And Starkiller(Though to be fair Vader designed him to lose to Vader). ANH Kenobi isn't a bad kill either.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Remember, Vader's record includes destroying a crapton of piker jedi. Typically against superior numbers. And Darth Maul in that one comic. And Starkiller(Though to be fair Vader designed him to lose to Vader). ANH Kenobi isn't a bad kill either.

Maul defeated him though.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yes to the first.
Vader IMO is stronger.
Vader has the greater stamina IMO as his suit does help his oxygen intake and stamina levels.
Yes to fourth
I'd give vader the edge in lightsaber skill as he's more experienced and overall more complete
Yes to the 7th
Yes to the 8th
Vader has more styles at his command and actaually a greater hold over them with Kun having an edge in niman
Vader a battle record isn't bad either.

Exar Kun smashed through a three feet wall of Mandalorian Iron, that isn't including a rage amp either, he has equal strength.

Exar Kun would have been able to stalemate Ulic Qel-Droma for hours before exhaustion took it's toll.

Exar Kun is the most highly skilled master of Niman, is definitely the best duelist before the likes of Yoda, the era he fought in was the greatest of Jedi combat and experience in all of history. He is a top tier hybrid duelist, I see no reason why Vader should be higher.

Exar Kun has Jar'kai, saberstaff, and Niman mastery under his belt furthermore Vader's chosen form is a common one, Kun's personal Niman is entirely uniwue to himself.

He has lost about as many as he's won, he is the greatest Jedi killer certainly but that's not all that impressive when almost all of said Jedi are featless.

Maul...didn't defeat him.

As I recall, that ended with.

"What could you possibly hate enough to destroy me?"
"Myself."

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun smashed through a three feet wall of Mandalorian Iron, that isn't including a rage amp either, he has equal strength.

Exar Kun would have been able to stalemate Ulic Qel-Droma for hours before exhaustion took it's toll.

Exar Kun is the most highly skilled master of Niman, is definitely the best duelist before the likes of Yoda, the era he fought in was the greatest of Jedi combat and experience in all of history. He is a top tier hybrid duelist, I see no reason why Vader should be higher.

Exar Kun has Jar'kai, saberstaff, and Niman mastery under his belt furthermore Vader's chosen form is a common one, Kun's personal Niman is entirely uniwue to himself.

He has lost about as many as he's won, he is the greatest Jedi killer certainly but that's not all that impressive when almost all of said Jedi are featless.

Vodo and Sylvar aren't exactly better than ANH Kenobi, Luke, or hell even Galen

More to the point, Vader's style as ROTJ Vader isn't just Djem So, like it was with Anakin.

As Vader, he's blended Makashi, Soresu, and Ataru into his main Djem So form.

Bumping this after I saw a quote by Tom Vetich comparing Ulic to Luke.



Anyone else?

To make it interesting

Ulic vs. Vader
Luke vs. Exar (Round 1)

Exar vs. Vader
Luke vs. Ulic (Round 2)

Originally posted by carthage
Vodo and Sylvar aren't exactly better than ANH Kenobi, Luke, or hell even Galen
Sylvar is not a top number on his list, regardless the point being Exar Kun never lost a battle. He was so far above everyone else, Ulic himself could only stalemate Kun before Kun's style and preferred weapon was an option.

Excellent find Carthage.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sylvar is not a top number on his list, regardless the point being Exar Kun never lost a battle. He was so far above everyone else, Ulic himself could only stalemate Kun before Kun's style and preferred weapon was an option.

All of those defeats happen before Vader's prime in ROTJ, he canonically became a greater duelist after Empire stikes back, he also was unparalleled in his era (unlike Exar who was equal to Ulic contrary to Gnost's assessment):





He canonically grew in skill in Empire strikes back, and was able to stalemate Luke in much the same fashion Kun was to Ulic in Return of the Jedi. Not sure how losing to a bunch of Jedi would prove he's a lesser duelist than Exar when those showings occur when he was at his worst in terms of skill

If Ulic is an equal of (I'm guessing here) ROTJ Luke then that puts his Form V ability on par with Vader himself, Kun completely equalled him on that level to the point where if not for the spirits they would have died from exhaustion hours later.

Now take into account that Exar Kun got better after refitting his form and weapon, then we have a fairly conclusive and entirely objective argument for Kun's saber skill > Vader & Luke's saber skill.

Where is it stated he became more skilled after getting his saber staff?

His saberstaff embued his unpredictability and his form in general, his abilities when given his staff are greater, this is said a few times, my respect thread has those sources.

The only statement I've found even remotely coming close to that is this in ILS's thread and the last statement can certainly be construed as hyperbole. Vader as of his encounter with Maul would be familiar with saberstaffs.

That would be like equating Dooku/Bane's curved hilt with a standard one. The only similarity between Maul's staff and Kun's is that they have dual blades, the comparison ends there.

Vader's saber also has a standard blade length changer, so even if Kun was changing his blade length in combat Vader can do the same.

Exar Kun's weapon is completely unique though, it doesn't have the weakness that Maul's does, it can look like a standard daber, it can switch off/on or lengthen/shorten each blade simultaneously and it can even change the intensity of the blades themselves, from solid to passable.

Furthermore Kun's style is designed around this, it is even stated that this is why Kun stomped Vodo when Vodo rejected him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That would be like equating Dooku/Bane's curved hilt with a standard one. The only similarity between Maul's staff and Kun's is that they have dual blades, the comparison ends there.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If Ulic is an equal of (I'm guessing here) ROTJ Luke then that puts his Form V ability on par with Vader himself, Kun completely equalled him on that level to the point where if not for the spirits they would have died from exhaustion hours later.

Now take into account that Exar Kun got better after refitting his form and weapon, then we have a fairly conclusive and entirely objective argument for Kun's saber skill > Vader & Luke's saber skill.

That Exar Kun was the best duelist of his era does not mean he is a superior duelist to either Vader or Luke.

Ulic has been compared to ROTJ Luke as a swordsman, ROTJ Luke mirrored Darth Vader's form perfectly, thus Ulic's own Form V mastery must be at least comparable. Exar Kun once he upgraded got even better than when he was a perfect equal for Ulic.

Kun > Vader in lightsaber skill.

Where is this comparison stated? Got a quote?

Not saying you're wrong though. Just want to see the evidence.

Edit: saw the quote you wee referring to. It doesn't state that they were equal swordsmen in any way. Just that they were "excellent" swordsmen.

-- Tom Veitch, Co-Author of Tales of the Jedi
- Star Wars Galaxy Magazine 8

Yeah, saw that immediately after posting. He isn't saying they are equal but rather that they are similar characters that go through similar arcs (Luke's DE arc).

I'm sure it was in reference to Luke during the Rebellion era. I'll give the magazine a read again. I still think Ulic being called an early version of Luke, partly because of their swordsmanship, is a considerable accolade, even if Ancient is stretching it.

Without the context Id assume he is referring to DE. Remember, before working on TotJ Veitch wrote DE. In DE Luke joins the dark side in an attempt to defeat it from the inside. At the same time Veitch was writing the DE endnotes which told Uliq's tale of joking the Krath in an attempt to defeat them from the inside. Clearly Veitch was deliberately echoing Luke's tale.

Ah, good point.

Ulic = DE Luke confirmed. http://r30.imgfast.net/users/3013/11/32/39/smiles/2193636915.gif

If that's the case Vader is ****ed

If we can really narrow this down then that really does make Ulic and by extension Exar Kun Vader/Luke tier duelists. Not that I doubted this in the first place.

Team 1 stomps