Goten & Trunks vs. The Gero Family...

Galan007

Originally posted by cdtm
Do you really think the adults were using anywhere close to their full power, though? Well, Vegeta visibly powered up just prior to sparring with Trunks(before this, he had no visible aura):
http://i.imgur.com/UO2GtRa.jpg

So he definitely powered up to *some* extent, and Trunks still nearly overwhelmed him. Would he have to power up at all to beat the Androids? Certainly not imo.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
On both accounts the adults were playing defensively and were still processing how strange it was that the kids could go Super Saiyan. Vegeta threw one punch and ended his bout with Trunks instantly lol. Though in Trunks' defense he was not expecting a hit, just like how Vegeta/Gohan were not expecting the kids to be that strong. Also in Trunks' defense, Buu-saga SSJ Vegeta could one-shot anyone in this thread, sans the Cell Jr.(which I don't think Trunks has a chance against anyway.) So yeah, not the best comparison if you're trying to disprove the notion that the boys>Androids.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I think you are taking the scene a bit too far. The scene where Goten throws a rock at Gohan is played exactly the same way and 18 herself has always had a "dodge the attack" mindset(dodging an attack she called half-assed). I read it as her being more surprised by their power and the fact that they threw a massive ki-blast at her. Keep in mind she hadn't been taking the fight all that seriously(her ki attack to the arena did almost nothing). She did end the fight in one attack once she got serious and the boys likewise opted to dodge the attack. Ignore the text(because it's not exactly accurate), but look at #18's expression/depiction here:
http://i.imgur.com/o8Ot8dQ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/byqbt7P.gif
http://i.imgur.com/nCs4SB8.gif
She was clearly worried about that blast. Flustered facial expression, nervous sweat-beads dripping from her face, "OMFG!!" narrative(I can post her exact statements if you'd like), etc.

For a point of comparison, this is what #18 looks like when she dodges a blast that she isn't worried about:
http://i.imgur.com/96ozveQ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Ys7ZHib.gif
http://i.imgur.com/qidpvTt.gif

First scene:
http://i.imgur.com/ZlG2oVt.png http://i.imgur.com/B7X47Q4.png
=Visibly worried.

Second scene:
http://i.imgur.com/r3sFNLL.png
=Visibly unworried.

...And once more: the boys heavily suppressed that blast, yet it still scared the piss out of her.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
and they generally lack the battle experience to make much use of being truly blood lusted(they'd probably waste more energy than they should). For what it's worth, a 'bloodlusted' Trunks delivered one hell of a kick to Fat Buu:
http://i.imgur.com/xGCvIpw.gif
http://i.imgur.com/C5S2QRY.gif
http://i.imgur.com/XO1h89b.gif
(Again: ignore the text.)

So the boys can act in that capacity when the situation requires it.

Originally posted by Q99
A SSJ can handle 19 and 20, but a normal SSJ is not enough for 17 and 18.

Trunks and Goten are likely the weakest super saiyans, and it was only once ASSJ was reached that SSJs could beat androids. As evident by their overall calm/playful demeanors, Trunks and Goten were both FPSSJ.

Originally posted by Q99
I mean, even during the matchup with 18, that was with her fighting *both* of them and finding their style weird because she thought they were two people. Their fighting style was terrible, actually, because they kept getting in each others way--they couldn't sync their movements and whatnot. Certainly you don't think that poor performance has any bearing on a fight where they would be acting as individuals, do you?

Q99

Originally posted by Galan007

Their fighting style was terrible, actually, because they kept getting in each others way--they couldn't sync their movements and whatnot. Certainly you don't think that poor performance has any bearing on a fight where they would be acting as individuals, do you?

Worse than them acting as two separate individals, but better than one acting as an individual, because one was doing full strength punch, the other full strength kicks, and focusing entirely on those at the same time in the way one individual *couldn't*.

It's only when they had to move around and pick directions and such that they messed up.

Galan007

You realize that as individuals they'd both be delivering full-power punches and kicks, right? Trying to act as one person actually hindered them quite a bit.

Trunks and Goten individually>>Mighty Mask.

AuraAngel

Originally posted by Galan007
Also in Trunks' defense, Buu-saga SSJ Vegeta could one-shot anyone in this thread, sans the Cell Jr.(which I don't think Trunks has a chance against anyway.) So yeah, not the best comparison if you're trying to disprove the notion that the boys>Androids.

I don't think Vegeta would casually one shot Cell or the Androids with a punch thrown at reflex followed by an "oops". He didn't hit Trunks with a massive blow like, say, the one Gohan used on Perfect Cell(or, conversely, the kick Vegeta used on Perfect Cell).

It would be like me using this as a basis for Trunk's ki blast. Unable to significantly hurt Goten at base, probably because it was thrown out without thinking like Vegeta's punch.

Originally posted by Galan007

Ignore the text(because it's not exactly accurate), but look at #18's expression/depiction here:
http://i.imgur.com/o8Ot8dQ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/byqbt7P.gif
http://i.imgur.com/nCs4SB8.gif
She was clearly worried about that blast. Flustered facial expression, nervous sweat-beads dripping from her face, "OMFG!!" narrative(I can post her exact statements if you'd like), etc.

For a point of comparison, this is what #18 looks like when she dodges a blast that she isn't worried about:
http://i.imgur.com/96ozveQ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Ys7ZHib.gif
http://i.imgur.com/qidpvTt.gif

First scene:
http://i.imgur.com/ZlG2oVt.png http://i.imgur.com/B7X47Q4.png
=Visibly worried.

Second scene:
http://i.imgur.com/r3sFNLL.png
=Visibly unworried.

...And once more: the boys heavily suppressed that blast, yet it still scared the piss out of her.

Yeah and Gohan has a similar reaction here.

http://view.thespectrum.net/manga/Dragon%20Ball/Volume%2036%20-%20LQ/db_v36_086.gif

Most every character reacts to Goten and Trunks this way. I don't take it to mean the kids are that much more powerful than everyone else but everyone else being so shocked at exactly how strong they really are.

Also keep in mind that while Trunks "didn't use full power" he was also under the impression that his ki attacks wouldn't actually kill her because she was once stronger than his dad. So I'm not really sold on how much they held back, only that Trunks didn't use his full power.

Originally posted by Galan007
For what it's worth, a 'bloodlusted' Trunks delivered one hell of a kick to Fat Buu:
http://i.imgur.com/xGCvIpw.gif
http://i.imgur.com/C5S2QRY.gif
http://i.imgur.com/XO1h89b.gif
(Again: ignore the text.)

So the boys can act in that capacity when the situation requires it.

Well yeah he was unprepared lol. The new movie basically says being unprepared makes you vulnerable, which probably goes double for playful characters like Buu.

This is what happened when Gotenks seriously tried to fight Buu and he had little reason to hold back. He should also be much stronger than Trunks.

Originally posted by Galan007
As evident by their overall calm/playful demeanors, Trunks and Goten were both FPSSJ.

I'm not sure I can believe this one. Goten could barely control the Kamehameha. Being a FPSSJ is a bit much since it requires a complete mastery over the ki to stay relaxed. I just think of them as very strange Super Saiyans since we never see how they awoke their forms.

cdtm

I just figured they were the logical extension of Saiyan "hybrid vigor." Gohan's always been stronger at a younger age then pure Saiyans, including achieving base SSJ much easier then Goku did. And then there's Pan (Or is it Bra?) Whatever, the little girl that was racing around the world at like 5.

StiltmanFTW

I thought that only Goku and Gohan learned MSSJ? At least officially?

Dramatic Gecko

Originally posted by Galan007
Dunno. SSJ Goten briefly sparred with SSJ Gohan, and SSJ Trunks briefly sparred with SSJ Vegeta. On both occasions the boys nearly overwhelmed the adults. It's really, really hard for me to imagine a #17/#18-level opponent giving Gohan or Vegeta any grief at all by that point in the story. Even though Gohan was weaker at the time, he still would have logically been several times more powerful than the Androids. Vegeta, on the other hand, had actually become stronger since the Cell saga. So yeah...

Aside from that, #18 was scarred shitless by one of the boys' restrained blasts--to the point that she felt the need to dodge it, instead of simply blocking/deflecting it. She also commented on how f*cking powerful the blast was immediately afterward... And again: the boys drastically neutered that blast because they didn't want to harm #18. However, #18 herself certainly gave the impression that it still would have caused significant damage to her(ergo her anxiously dodging it at the last second, the beads of nervous-sweat depicted on her face immediately afterward, and her "OMFG!!" comments.)

That said, an argument can definitely be made for the boys being > the Androids, imo.

Just want to know which translation you read, I read the manga at my library and #18's reactions was more (along the lines of) "Those kids are strong." I do not recall a OMFG reaction. After the Buu training I haven't a clue but at the tournament I don't see them being capable of taking Semi Perfect Cell and probably having difficulty against Android 16.

But this is my least familiar saga so take it with a grain of salt.

juggerman

They would be hard pressed to get passed #2 imo. If they did, they wouldn't get passed #3

Branlor Swift

Honestly they haven't done much to say they could beat the Androids. However that kick Trunks delivered to Buu outdid Gohan's cheap kick to Buu. So...

Galan007

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I don't think Vegeta would casually one shot Cell or the Androids with a punch thrown at reflex followed by an "oops". He didn't hit Trunks with a massive blow like, say, the one Gohan used on Perfect Cell(or, conversely, the kick Vegeta used on Perfect Cell). Lol? This was NOT a "casual" punch from Vegeta:
http://i.imgur.com/z9gmwTV.png

He became visibly pissed when Trunks actually managed a glancing blow, and punched Trunks like he would an enemy. Given the power Vegeta was packing during the Buu saga, to say that the same punch would not have incapacitated the Androids(at the very least) is to drastically lowball Vegeta, imo. By the end of the Cell saga he had become SEVERAL times more powerful than the Androids--and Buu saga Vegeta>Cell saga Vegeta, so...

Originally posted by AuraAngel
It would be like me using this as a basis for Trunk's ki blast. Unable to significantly hurt Goten at base, probably because it was thrown out without thinking like Vegeta's punch. We both know those blasts were completely different. The blast you mentioned barely singed Gotenks' clothing. Conversely, the blast Trunks fired at #18 created a rather large explosion:
http://i.imgur.com/gU2CFup.png

C'mon, don't lowball.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Also keep in mind that while Trunks "didn't use full power" he was also under the impression that his ki attacks wouldn't actually kill her because she was once stronger than his dad.Not true. The boys mentioned that #18 used to be more powerful than Goku/Vegeta, and as such, they weren't going to underestimate her. However, if they didn't think their ki blasts would have been able to harm her, they wouldn't have consciously suppressed the blast to make sure she didn't get hurt.

#18's own reaction to the blast tells us all we need to know:

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Well yeah he was unprepared lol. I know. I said that. none

Those panels were simply meant to demonstrate Trunks acting in a 'bloodlusted' capacity. Obviously I'm not comparing the boys to Fat Buu. srsly

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I'm not sure I can believe this one. Goten could barely control the Kamehameha. Being a FPSSJ is a bit much since it requires a complete mastery over the ki to stay relaxed. I just think of them as very strange Super Saiyans since we never see how they awoke their forms. This is how the Daizenshuu defines FPSSJ:

So Gotenks/Trunks were FPSSJ, according to the official/canon definition of the form. thumb up

Galan007

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Just want to know which translation you read, I read the manga at my library and #18's reactions was more (along the lines of) "Those kids are strong." I do not recall a OMFG reaction. After the Buu training I haven't a clue but at the tournament I don't see them being capable of taking Semi Perfect Cell and probably having difficulty against Android 16.

But this is my least familiar saga so take it with a grain of salt.

And again: the boys had suppressed the blast that #18 freaked out about.

Galan007

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Honestly they haven't done much to say they could beat the Androids. However that kick Trunks delivered to Buu outdid Gohan's cheap kick to Buu. So... Good point. thumb up

Compare the effects of Gohan's cheap-shot:
http://i.imgur.com/NvFMW2dl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/i7aAnsHl.jpg

To the effects of Trunks' cheap-shot:
http://i.imgur.com/WJmKJ4Xl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/6yfPh2Cl.jpg

Neither of them had a reason to hold back against Buu, yet Trunks' kick obviously packed much more of a wallop than Gohan's. Food for thought. smile

Originally posted by Galan007
We both know those blasts were completely different. The blast you mentioned barely singed Gotenks' clothing.

So Gotenks/Trunks were FPSSJ, according to the official/canon definition of the form. thumb up

Whoops, typo(s). I meant *Goten, not Gotenks. embarrasment

cdtm

Originally posted by Galan007
And again: the boys had suppressed the blast that #18 freaked out about.

Counter point: There's also the fact they weren't taking #18's head off with a single punch.

I'm not contesting that the boys are higher then #18. I think the ki attacks do prove that.

But we're also not talking about Vegeta vs Recoome or Imperfect Cell vs the Android gap in power.

I mean, the Saibaman were, what, 1,200? And Ten, Krilling, and Yamcha were't even in the 2k's, yet they walked all over them.

AuraAngel

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol? This was NOT a "casual" punch from Vegeta:
http://i.imgur.com/z9gmwTV.png

He became visibly pissed when Trunks actually managed a glancing blow, and punched Trunks like he would an enemy. Given the power Vegeta was packing during the Buu saga, to say that the same punch would not have incapacitated the Androids(at the very least) is to drastically lowball Vegeta, imo. By the end of the Cell saga he had become SEVERAL times more powerful than the Androids--and Buu saga Vegeta>Cell saga Vegeta, so...

Every person Vegeta fought in the Buu Saga he fought with intent to kill. He also put a lot more effort into knocking Goku out while he was distracted than the hit against Trunks. Vegeta was not hitting Trunks with that much force on a reflex. For comparison this is what Vegeta was hitting at when trying to kill Goku.

http://view.thespectrum.net/manga/Dragon%20Ball/Volume%2038%20-%20LQ/db_v38_165.gif

It's Goku doing the hitting but the two are more or less equal at the time(sans SSJ3 of course). My point is that Vegeta was trying to knock Trunks away, not kill him. Given his "oops" he probably didn't even mean to hurt Trunks.

Originally posted by Galan007
We both know those blasts were completely different. The blast you mentioned barely singed Gotenks' clothing. Conversely, the blast Trunks fired at #18 created a rather large explosion:
http://i.imgur.com/gU2CFup.png

C'mon, don't lowball.

I'm not lowballing. I'm using a ki blast from a heat of the moment move done without thinking(Trunks uses his left hand when he'd made a conscious choice not to earlier) to one that is significantly more powerful(though as you have said multiple times, it isn't Trunks' full power).

Just like how a punch thrown in the heat of the moment(when he'd not been attacking at all) will logically lack the power of a punch meant to kill or even seriously harm.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not true. The boys mentioned that #18 used to be more powerful than Goku/Vegeta, and as such, they weren't going to underestimate her. However, if they didn't think their ki blasts would have been able to harm her, they wouldn't have consciously suppressed the blast to make sure she didn't get hurt.

#18's own reaction to the blast tells us all we need to know:

If they aren't underestimating her then they aren't going to hold back a massive amount of power. Trunks is specifically not trying to kill her but he is almost certainly trying to hurt her. Because otherwise there is no point to the Ki blast.

Eh my copy doesn't have her say it is dangerous. She says "in that case...I better end this quickly!" But that is playing semantics. And while she reacted to their blast that way it is important to note that Goten and Trunks similarly dodged her attack to get out of the way. She can certainly harm them.

Originally posted by Galan007
I know. I said that. none

Those panels were simply meant to demonstrate Trunks acting in a 'bloodlusted' capacity. Obviously I'm not comparing the boys to Fat Buu. srsly

I know you said that sir. Was just agreeing with you. stick out tongue

Oh Trunks and Goten are massively strong when they are mad. That is non-negotiable. But they are also stupid kids and being half blooded Saiyans seem to lack talent for fighting, instead compensating with sheer power(note how they underestimate Buu, Future Trunks failed to see the failure in his USSJ mode, and Goten being able to generate enough Ki to go SSJ and shoot blasts but not be able to fly). For instance I don't disagree that they would beat 19 and 20. But I do think that Gero would be able to hide, wait for a ki blast, absorb it, then hide again. Trunks and Goten aren't intelligent fighters. They are inventive and unpredictable at times. But they are also very dumb(see where they counted on Buu to let them fuse).

I also wouldn't take Gohan's showing against Buu compared to Trunks' to mean something. Gohan had fought with Dabura and previously already been hit with an attack by Buu(the same kind that knocked Dabura out for a bit). He's pretty weakened by that point.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is how the Daizenshuu defines FPSSJ:

So Gotenks/Trunks were FPSSJ, according to the official/canon definition of the form. thumb up

Gotten rid of their wild personality huh?

Keep in mind how Goku and Gohan, the two most noteworthy FPSSJs since we see them doing it most, trained it. They stayed as Super Saiyans. One translation I read said they only stopped it when they slept and another didn't have that. Picnics, going to Namek, Dragonball hunting, driving the car, and so on. The two were never not transformed and they were completely calm and relaxed. The only time it stopped was when Cell killed people.

Trunks and Goten couldn't have done that. They couldn't stay in Super Saiyan mode for days upon days. The former because his dad didn't even know he could be a SSJ(which logically means Bulma probably didn't know as she never told him) and the latter because Chi-Chi outright forbade him from transforming(and we know he never did so around Gohan until it was tournament training time). They don't have the time to get used to the form. Also they deliberately got out of the form when they neared Majin Buu for the first time so they wouldn't be detected. But if Vegeta is to be believed then a FPSSJ is indistinguishable from their normal form unless they make a conscious effort to flex their power.

Also both Goten and Trunks are surprised that there is a form surpassing SSJ(when they are training in the ROSAT). If the Cell Saga is to be believed the chain of logic for discovery goes SSJ->ASSJ->USSJ->FPSSJ->SSJ2. Gohan got to skip 2 and 3 because Goku pointed out their flaws but Vegeta and Trunks both went to ASSJ and USSJ. Regardless Trunks and Goten seem surprised that SSJ can be surpassed at all which wouldn't make sense if they were Full Powered Super Saiyans. It would honestly surprise me if it ever occurred to them that one could get stronger by just staying Super Saiyan for a while.

I just don't really believe that in addition to becoming Super Saiyans they also became perfect Super Saiyans at the same time. Doesn't add up to me.

cdtm

Dude, up to that point becoming a SSJ PERIOD didn't add up without a ton of training and a soul crushing event. Even Future Trunks didn't hit SSJ until Gohan died.

Yet 'Geta clearly wasn't even training them, Goku was dead, and Gohan was as surprised as anyone about their power. And they had a pretty nomal, pain free childhood up until Buu came along.

With all that, why not go fpssj? Would make no less sense then anything else about them.

AuraAngel

By that logic they could be SSJ2 lol.

I just assume they are children who one day they discovered could do a neat trick and then left it at that, though of course they told each other.

Galan007

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Every person Vegeta fought in the Buu Saga he fought with intent to kill. He also put a lot more effort into knocking Goku out while he was distracted than the hit against Trunks. Vegeta was not hitting Trunks with that much force on a reflex. You originally said that Vegeta punched Trunks "casually", and now you're backpedaling a bit. As made clear in the scene I posted: that was NOT a casual punch. That was a powered up/pissed off punch from a guy SEVERAL TIMES more powerful then all of the Androids put together. HUGE difference.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
It's Goku doing the hitting but the two are more or less equal at the time(sans SSJ3 of course). My point is that Vegeta was trying to knock Trunks away, not kill him. Given his "oops" he probably didn't even mean to hurt Trunks. Vegeta didn't originally intend to punch Trunks. He punched Trunks because his defenses were clearly getting overwhelmed:
http://i.imgur.com/QbPxoFN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r3qpE3o.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9yInnEp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1GDmOsb.jpg

...Hence the "oops."

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I'm not lowballing. I'm using a ki blast from a heat of the moment move done without thinking(Trunks uses his left hand when he'd made a conscious choice not to earlier) to one that is significantly more powerful(though as you have said multiple times, it isn't Trunks' full power). It's a faulty analogy regardless. The ki blasts were vastly different in terms of lethality.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
If they aren't underestimating her then they aren't going to hold back a massive amount of power. Except they did hold back... Because we were told they held back. Despite this, #18 was still awestruck at the power of the blast.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Eh my copy doesn't have her say it is dangerous. She says "in that case...I better end this quickly!" But that is playing semantics. And while she reacted to their blast that way it is important to note that Goten and Trunks similarly dodged her attack to get out of the way. She can certainly harm them. Of course they wanted to dodge her Kienzan. Do you think they'd want to get decapitated? How on earth does that reflect poorly on the boys? No one has ever withstood a direct hit from a Kienzan in the manga. srsly

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I know you said that sir. Was just agreeing with you. stick out tongue

Oh, my bad. stick out tongue

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I also wouldn't take Gohan's showing against Buu compared to Trunks' to mean something. Gohan had fought with Dabura and previously already been hit with an attack by Buu(the same kind that knocked Dabura out for a bit). He's pretty weakened by that point. There is no reason to assume Gohan's fight with Dabra weakened him very much at all. Dabra only landed one shot successfully(two if you count the spit), and Gohan seemed just fine afterward--there was also a considerable amount of time between Gohan's encounter with Dabra and his encounter with Buu, to boot... And while Buu had punched Gohan once, before he delivered the cheap-shot, nothing indicated that he was weakened by some vast margin.

Trunks' cheap-shot-kick was just SO much more impressive than Gohan's that it's staggering, really. But again: I don't think the boys are on par with the adults. I DO, however, think they're much closer to that level then most realize, and/or want to believe.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Gotten rid of their wild personality huh?These pages literally do not disprove anything at all in regards to the boys being classified as FPSSJ... Especially the Gotenks pages(not only is Gotenks an entirely different person, but he also displayed a level of arrogance that the boys NEVER displayed individually.)

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Keep in mind how Goku and Gohan, the two most noteworthy FPSSJs since we see them doing it most, trained it. They stayed as Super Saiyans. One translation I read said they only stopped it when they slept and another didn't have that. Picnics, going to Namek, Dragonball hunting, driving the car, and so on. The two were never not transformed and they were completely calm and relaxed. The only time it stopped was when Cell killed people. I just posted the Daizenshuu's definition of a FPSSJ(Super Saiyan Grade Four.) Goten and Trunks fit the description perfectly.

A calm/playful/relaxed demeanor certainly doesn't fit the description of Grades I, II, or III, after all, so where would YOU rank them, if not Grade IV? srsly

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Also both Goten and Trunks are surprised that there is a form surpassing SSJ(when they are training in the ROSAT). If the Cell Saga is to be believed the chain of logic for discovery goes SSJ->ASSJ->USSJ->FPSSJ->SSJ2. Gohan got to skip 2 and 3 because Goku pointed out their flaws but Vegeta and Trunks both went to ASSJ and USSJ. Regardless Trunks and Goten seem surprised that SSJ can be surpassed at all which wouldn't make sense if they were Full Powered Super Saiyans. It would honestly surprise me if it ever occurred to them that one could get stronger by just staying Super Saiyan for a while. No. In the Buu saga(which is the arc in question), SSJ2 is noted as 'the Super Saiyan which surpasses a Super Saiyan':
http://i.imgur.com/wgkwsH3.png

The 'levels within levels' theme was confined solely to the Cell saga, and is certainly NOT what the boys were referring to when they were training in the RoSaT(they didn't have time for that.)

Galan007

Originally posted by cdtm
Counter point: There's also the fact they weren't taking #18's head off with a single punch. Not a very good counter point.

The boys didn't throw any physical blows at #18 after going SSJ--they just fired that one blast before she DQ'd them with her Kienzan. We don't know what their SSJ-level punches would have done to her one way or the other...

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm not contesting that the boys are higher then #18. I think the ki attacks do prove that. Cool beans. thumb up

cdtm

They weren't fighting as SSJ's?

Did the manga specify/imply their power up? Because if they were holding their own as base Saiyans, either #18 was seriously holding back (And as she told Krillin, that's not so easy for her), they're pretty strong even at base (Low SSJ level or somewhere close), or it's just a bad showing for her.

And as I recall, nobody else was holding back from one shotting the scrubs. Plus, #18 was pretty motivated to win that money. smile

Galan007

In a nutshell: they fought #18 in their base levels for a bit, transformed into SSJs(yes, the SSJ power-up was shown/stated), fired one suppressed blast(the one #18 freaked out about), and were DQ'd by her Kienzan.

Reflassshh

Originally posted by Reflassshh
They make it pass Semi-perfect Cell after a hard fight. Cell junior stomps them. Just saw this.

Anyway, you've summed up all the reasons behind my stance. (ie: Almost overwhelming a FPSSJ, #18 fight etc)

john allerdyce

I see a lot of feats pertaining to Trunks, but how does Goten stack up next to him?

cdtm

Originally posted by john allerdyce
I see a lot of feats pertaining to Trunks, but how does Goten stack up next to him?

Well, Goten can do Kamehamehas, but he has terrible aim. Nearly hit the crowd and clipped a few buildings.

Trunks told Vegeta he's a little bit weaker when they fight.

Which made him mad, because he felt at a year older, Trunks should be more then a little ahead of him.

cdtm

Originally posted by Galan007
In a nutshell: they fought #18 in their base levels for a bit, transformed into SSJs(yes, the SSJ power-up was shown/stated), fired one suppressed blast(the one #18 freaked out about), and were DQ'd by her Kienzan.

The question then, is why was #18 even going easy on them when they were at base. KRILLIN of all people two shot a chump in the early rounds.

Galan007

Originally posted by john allerdyce
I see a lot of feats pertaining to Trunks, but how does Goten stack up next to him? When the boys both powered up to maximum, Goku noted that Trunks was only "slightly stronger" than Goten, and attributed that difference exclusively to Trunks being a year older:
http://i.imgur.com/4xrRWZ1h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/I8HvBGih.jpg
(Also note Piccolo's utterly shocked expression on the first page when he senses the boys' power.)

That's why Goten was able to nearly overwhelm Gohan's defenses when they sparred:
http://i.imgur.com/TgOSo8y.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/n89NYEr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fbl7MeI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3naPmXB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vnax7tE.jpg
...Much like Trunks nearly did to Vegeta

cdtm

Perhaps, but I'm imagine learning the two snot punks you had a hand in raising and seeing through the odd temper tantrum could wipe the floor with you now. smile

Galan007

Originally posted by cdtm
The question then, is why was #18 even going easy on them when they were at base. KRILLIN of all people two shot a chump in the early rounds. Not really sure what you're asking here..?

I believe #18>base Goten/Trunks(she's also > base Goku/Vegeta for what it's worth), and SSJ Goten/Trunks>>#18.

cdtm

Originally posted by Galan007
Not really sure what you're asking here..?

I believe #18>base Goten/Trunks(she's also > base Goku/Veget

a for what it's worth), and SSJ Goten/Trunks>>#18.

I'm asking why she didn't clobber them when she had a chance.

Seems ooc that she was holding back to such an extent, that the kids could sneak in attacks and draw the fight out.

Sure, Goku does that stupid stuff all the time, but everyone else seemed content on one shotting every weakling in the tourney.

Galan007

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm asking why she didn't clobber them when she had a chance.

Seems ooc that she was holding back to such an extent, that the kids could sneak in attacks and draw the fight out.

Sure, Goku does that stupid stuff all the time, but everyone else seemed content on one shotting every weakling in the tourney. Seemed like she was trying to fight 'Mighty Mask' long enough to figure out who he really was, because she knew he was far too powerful(and looked far too disproportionate, lol) to be a normal adult earthling. It wasn't until the boys went SSJ that she figured out Mighty Mask's true identities.

Dramatic Gecko

Originally posted by Galan007
And again: the boys had suppressed the blast that #18 freaked out about.

Still while she was worried about how dangerous this was. She was confident she would still win. She went on to say "Trunks! Goten! I'm going to win!" or to that effect. At no point did she ever feel worried about not beating them. If anything she could have been worried about the explosions they were unleashing and that her daughter was in the crowd.

Galan007

^ Incorrect.

Immediately after(literally) #18 made that "OMFG!!" statement, she used a Kienzan to split Mighty Mask apart, because she knew it would result in an automatic DQ for the boys... After seeing the type of power they could casually generate, she wanted no part of a continued battle--her dumbfounded/awestruck narrative was indicative enough of that.

cdtm

Even if she wasn't weaker then them, I think she'd still opt for the cheap win. Partly because all she cared about was the money, and partly because dinner parties would be pretty awkward after beating the crap out of their kids. wink

Dramatic Gecko

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Incorrect.

Immediately after(literally) #18 made that "OMFG!!" statement, she used a Kienzan to split Mighty Mask apart, because she knew it would result in an automatic DQ for the boys... After seeing the type of power they could casually generate, she wanted no part of a continued battle--her dumbfounded/awestruck narrative was indicative enough of that.

Err fine lets do this properly. Base Trunks was struggling in 150 Gravity so he turned Super Saiyan.

Base Goku trained 100X gravity before Namek which put him at 32,000 BP without Kao Ken and 180,000 BP max Kao Ken. Even is he went Super saiyan at that stage he would be weaker than Frieza. He needed that Zenkai after getting thrashed by Vegeta/Ginyu Force

So SSJ Trunks is weaker than Final Form Frieza.

Android 18>>>>>Final Form Frieza>>SSJ Trunks

Dramatic Gecko

While we are at it Vegeta was training 300X gravity before he went Super Saiyan ands till got pwned by Android 18.

Galan007

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Err fine lets do this properly. Base Trunks was struggling in 150 Gravity so he turned Super Saiyan.

Base Goku trained 100X gravity before Namek which put him at 32,000 BP without Kao Ken and 180,000 BP max Kao Ken. Even is he went Super saiyan at that stage he would be weaker than Frieza. He needed that Zenkai after getting thrashed by Vegeta/Ginyu Force

So SSJ Trunks is weaker than Final Form Frieza.

Android 18>>>>>Final Form Frieza>>SSJ Trunks This is about the most ridiculous 'logic' I've seen from anyone here, and it entirely contradicts the PLETHORA of evidence to the contrary.

Even Vegeta was already in his SSJ state whilst training in the 150x gravity... Yet when Trunks transforms into a SSJ to simply make it easier for him to move around in said gravity, he all of the sudden becomes sub-Freeza-level? Lol.

Screw Goten nearly overwhelming Gohan(who was >>>>> #18 & Freeza.) Screw Trunks nearly overwhelming Vegeta(who was >>>>> #18 & Freeza.) Screw #18 freaking the f*ck out at one of their suppressed blasts. Screw Piccolo being awestruck when they powered up to max. Screw Trunks' cheap-shot-kick doing FAR more to Fat Buu than Gohan's did. Screw the fact that it was almost certainly the first time Trunks had ever trained in heightened gravity, so he likely hadn't acclimated to it yet. Etc.

Yeah, you aren't trying to lowball or anything. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Dramatic Gecko

Originally posted by Galan007
This is about the most ridiculous 'logic' I've seen from anyone here, and it entirely contradicts the PLETHORA of evidence to the contrary.

Even Vegeta was already in his SSJ state whilst training in the 150x gravity... Yet when Trunks transforms into a SSJ to simply make it easier for him to move around in said gravity, he all of the sudden becomes sub-Freeza-level? Lol.

Screw Goten nearly overwhelming Gohan(who was >>>>> #18 & Freeza.) Screw Trunks nearly overwhelming Vegeta(who was >>>>> #18 & Freeza.) Screw #18 freaking the f*ck out at one of their suppressed blasts. Screw Piccolo being awestruck when they powered up to max. Screw Trunks' cheap-shot-kick doing FAR more to Fat Buu than Gohan's did. Screw the fact that it was almost certainly the first time Trunks had ever trained in heightened gravity, so he likely hadn't acclimated to it yet. Etc.

Yeah, you aren't trying to lowball or anything. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Would you please stop freakin out when I present a case.

The entire SHOCK from everyone can be chalked up to them being kids and already being super saiyan. And remember how Gohan beats the crap out of people when he is genuinely pissed? Well Trunks is a saiyan hybrid just like Gohan and i'm sure seeing Vegeta getting wrecked as Majin would boost that attack (due to saiyan hybrid anger boosts which lead to SSJ2) enough to border SSJ2 power even if for a second.

But an indisputable fact is that Base Trunks was having difficulty at 150g (and even if he wasn't use to it do you see him getting to over 300?) and Base Vegeta was training over 300g in early Android Saga before he went Super Saiyan a few years later. Meaning Super Saiyan Vegeta who got rekt by 18 is stronger than SSJ Kid Trunks.

Unless kid Trunks was ascended or full power. In which case I give up on trying to figure out Buu Saga.

But I still don't see them beating Semi Perfect Cell until after training on the lookout.

Galan007

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Would you please stop freakin out when I present a case. I'm not freaking out at all. I just don't care for the lowballing... It's unneeded. smile

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
The entire SHOCK from everyone can be chalked up to them being kids and already being super saiyan. Nope. When #18 freaked out at the boys' suppressed blast, she already knew they were capable of becoming SSJ. Same with Piccolo.

Clearly they were awestruck at the sheer amount of raw ki the boys were producing.

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
But an indisputable fact is that Base Trunks was having difficulty at 150g Even the Saiyans have to continuously train in heightened gravity, or else they have to re-acclimate themselves to the rigors associated with said gravity before it becomes easy for them to move around in again. That's why Goku(post-zenkai) initially struggled just to barely move around in 20G when he first started his trip to Namek:
http://i.imgur.com/yI5Zvdvh.jpg

...And that was only 2x more gravity then he'd grown accustomed to a few days prior on King Kai's world.

Trunks, on the other hand, had never trained under increased gravity a day in his life. So he basically went from 1G to 150G--150x more gravity then he's used to. That's going to take some time to get acclimated to, regardless of his PL. In absolutely no way/shape/form does that imply he's sub-Freeza-level, though... Especially given the multitude of feats/statements that put he and Goten FAR above that level. srsly

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Unless kid Trunks was ascended or full power. In which case I give up on trying to figure out Buu Saga.Goten and Trunks were undoubtedly FPSSJ... It's the only 'Grade' of Super Saiyan that fits their clam/relaxed/playful demeanors, after all.

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
But I still don't see them beating Semi Perfect Cell until after training on the lookout. That's fine. I just hope the 'sub-Freeza' thing was a joke. thumb up

Galan007

Stumbled upon this excerpt from a VIZ summary page:
http://i.imgur.com/uA6VPUZm.jpg

Aside from Goku/Gohan/Vegeta, the boys are referred to as "the strongest heroes on earth!"

This lends to the notion that they were > Piccolo and #18.

SSJGGogeta

Yeah, I'm not sure why this is even a debate, here.

Galan is clearly right. The boys were each a lot stronger than either of the androids. A single, suppressed blast from SSJ Trunks TERRIFIED #18, to the point where she was sweating, and had to dodge the raw ki blast. She didn't even dodge all of SSJ Vegeta's attacks, when she first fought him.

Gohan himself even stated that Goten was nearly STRONGER than he was. And Goten was weaker than Trunks. Sos SSJ Trunks was quite possibly stronger than SSJ Gohan. And if that were the case, then he would be MORE than capable of taking on ANY android, bearing Cell Jr, or Perfect Cell. And he would need SSJ Goten along with him, and it would be a hard battle, but I could definitely see them beating Semi-perfect Cell with a tag-team effort.

But yeah, all in all, Galan's right. And @ the thread, Goten and Trunks reach, and then stop hard at the Cell Jr. It would be a tough fight for the Cell Jr, but it would win against the two.

Galan007

Heh, this is quickly turning into a Goten/Trunks respect thread, but I came across this excerpt from Goten's bio in Daizenshuu #2, and thought it was worth posting here:

ie. Trunks =/> Goten = Gohan(pre-Kaioshin unlock.) That's a pretty interesting revelation, right there...

Damborgson

They would have a hell of a time getting past #17 and 18...it'd be close.

#16 would take care of them after though.

carver9

They are not heating 17 and 18.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Galan007
Stumbled upon this excerpt from a VIZ summary page:
http://i.imgur.com/uA6VPUZm.jpg

Aside from Goku/Gohan/Vegeta, the boys are referred to as "the strongest heroes on earth!"

This lends to the notion that they were > Piccolo and #18.

From that statement, they'd have a good chance against #16 probably.

One Big Mob

Trunks and Goten gave 18 trouble in base form while getting in the way of each other. 50 times boost in a serious fight...

Kento

If the Potara Fusion multiplies the users power levels together, what does the Fusion Dance do? Does it just add them together, does it boost it in some other ways? Does it ever say?

juggerman

Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, this is quickly turning into a Goten/Trunks respect thread, but I came across this excerpt from Goten's bio in Daizenshuu #2, and thought it was worth posting here:

ie. Trunks =/> Goten = Gohan(pre-Kaioshin unlock.) That's a pretty interesting revelation, right there...

That sounds like they are just comparing base forms there. Gohan would still be the most powerful due to SSJ2. But Gohan being weaker than Trunks is ass

Galan007

Originally posted by Kento
If the Potara Fusion multiplies the users power levels together, what does the Fusion Dance do? Does it just add them together, does it boost it in some other ways? Does it ever say? Unknown. It is definitely a weaker method of fusion, however.

Originally posted by juggerman
That sounds like they are just comparing base forms there. Gohan would still be the most powerful due to SSJ2. But Gohan being weaker than Trunks is ass If base Goten/Trunks=base Gohan, then SSJ Goten/Trunks=SSJ Gohan by proxy(which is what the Daizenshuu excerpt was likely referring to.)

But yeah, SSJ2 Gohan is obviously >.

Sj_Sharp

Originally posted by Galan007
Goten & Trunks (Buu saga)
http://s16.postimg.org/og1x82mlx/image.gif http://s16.postimg.org/xp8ovxkvp/image.gif

VS.

Round 1:
Androids #19 & #20
http://s16.postimg.org/jb5b46z1x/image.png

Round 2:
Androids #17 & #18
http://s16.postimg.org/u9gkmdnn9/image.png

Round 3:
Android #16
http://s16.postimg.org/qajd3jz05/image.gif

Round 4:
Semi-Perfect Cell
http://s16.postimg.org/yu2r1b7cl/image.gif

Round 5:
1 Cell Junior
http://s7.postimg.org/3tl1476nv/imageedit_12_8326841626.gif

-Fight takes place on the Sacred World of the Kais.
-The boys are at their peaks.
-They start each Round at full power, and do not hold back.
-No fusion.

How far do they get?

*Note: I do not expect the boys to clear. I gave them such a wide range of opponents, because there tends to be a wide range of opinion regarding their power levels.

Pre Rosat boys clear up to round 4 but definitely stops at the Cell Junior.
Post Rosat boys became even stronger (even if not by that much) and more experienced in fight, thus I personally think they could give the Cell Jr a hard fight. I'd say 50:50 since they are 2 vs 1.

Agusto Pinochet

Clear all. Goten was fighting Gohan evenly in sparring, and after the ROSAT they would be even stronger.

SSJGGogeta

Originally posted by Agusto Pinochet
Clear all. Goten was fighting Gohan evenly in sparring, and after the ROSAT they would be even stronger.

Yeah, but they weren't that much stronger. The only real difference was that they learned SSJ3 while they were fused.

And fighting evenly with a weakened SSJ1 Gohan certainly does NOT make you as powerful as a Cell Jr. SSJ1 Gohan from the Cell saga was weaker than Super Vegeta and Trunks, and they were both weaker than the Cell Jr.'s. Buu saga Gohan was less than HALF as strong as he was during the Cell saga, according to Vegeta.

So Cell Jr. > Super Vegeta > Cell saga MSSJ1 Gohan > Buu saga SSJ1 Gohan >= MSSJ1 Goten.

MSSJ1 Trunks was also more powerful than Goten, and even he was brought to tears by a serious hit from MSSJ1 Vegeta. Super Vegeta would have stomped him, and he was weaker than a Cell Jr.

Gotenks is the only way for Goten or Trunks to beat a Cell Jr. They MIGHT be able to win with teamwork, but it'd be a hell of a fight.

Kento

It never says how much stronger they got.. But they were training seriously for months after being powerful as they were never having real training.

Vegeta said he was weaker. I don't remember him saying half as weak. And Gohan still was even with Perfect Cell level Dabura.

Uhm Cell Saga Mssj Gohan = Perfect Cell > Mssj Goku > Super Vegeta.

Trunks was only 'brought to tears' because his dad punched him and so he cried because he wasn't expecting it..and was automatically better when Vegeta said he would take him to the park.

SSJGGogeta

Originally posted by Kento
It never says how much stronger they got.. But they were training seriously for months after being powerful as they were never having real training.

Vegeta said he was weaker. I don't remember him saying half as weak. And Gohan still was even with Perfect Cell level Dabura.

Uhm Cell Saga Mssj Gohan = Perfect Cell > Mssj Goku > Super Vegeta.

Trunks was only 'brought to tears' because his dad punched him and so he cried because he wasn't expecting it..and was automatically better when Vegeta said he would take him to the park.

1. Goten and Trunks were in the Hyperbolic time chamber for one hour. That is the equivalent of 15 days, on the inside. Two weeks. That is not enough time for a noticeable power increase to occur. Again, the only real difference was that they had created new attacks, and learned SSJ3. Along with gaining a mastery of the fusion dance. That is all.

2. I can't find the official english translation, but in it Vegeta said that Gohan had lost over half of his strength. In the unofficial version, he just says that Gohan "isn't even close" to the level he was at when he fought Cell.

3. Uh, that was SSJ2 Gohan. Not MSSJ1 Gohan. SSJ2 Gohan was around equal to Dabura/Perfect Cell. Which makes sense, given that Gohan had lost half of his strength, and SSJ2 is a 2X boost to SSJ1. Which would make SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan equal to his MSSJ1 Cell saga self.

4. That is 100% not true. Trunks was brought to tears because his nose was bloodied after being slugged by Vegeta. His face was even still bruised after he wiped the blood off of his nose.

http://i10.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/430/dragon-ball-71346.jpg

So... Yeah, he shrugged it off to look cool for his dad, but he was still bloodied by that single punch. So again, given that MSSJ1 Vegeta > MSSJ1 Trunks, that means that Super Vegeta >> MSSJ1 Trunks, which puts a Cell Jr. also well above Trunks.

Kento

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Goten and Trunks were in the Hyperbolic time chamber for one hour. That is the equivalent of 15 days, on the inside. Two weeks. That is not enough time for a noticeable power increase to occur. Again, the only real difference was that they had created new attacks, and learned SSJ3. Along with gaining a mastery of the fusion dance. That is all.

2. I can't find the official english translation, but in it Vegeta said that Gohan had lost over half of his strength. In the unofficial version, he just says that Gohan "isn't even close" to the level he was at when he fought Cell.

3. Uh, that was SSJ2 Gohan. Not MSSJ1 Gohan. SSJ2 Gohan was around equal to Dabura/Perfect Cell. Which makes sense, given that Gohan had lost half of his strength, and SSJ2 is a 2X boost to SSJ1. Which would make SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan equal to his MSSJ1 Cell saga self.

4. That is 100% not true. Trunks was brought to tears because his nose was bloodied after being slugged by Vegeta. His face was even still bruised after he wiped the blood off of his nose.

So... Yeah, he shrugged it off to look cool for his dad, but he was still bloodied by that single punch. So again, given that MSSJ1 Vegeta > MSSJ1 Trunks, that means that Super Vegeta >> MSSJ1 Trunks, which puts a Cell Jr. also well above Trunks.

Training and its power increase are very plot heavy in DBZ. Also, they were actually seriously training for a goal, for the first time in their lives. Gotenks power stems from them, and Gotenks also got insanely more powerful compared to when they went in. Two weeks did a lot for them.

There isn't anything suggesting he went ssj2. Even Vegeta, who was incapable of going ssj2, was saying how he or Goku could have taken Dabura already. Gohan was weaker than when he fought Cell sure but nothing says that he was that much weaker. The lightning aura was around him during the tournament, and the same aura was around Goku and Vegeta when they went ssj2 fighting each other, so its not just Akira forgetting the aura around Gohan. He just didn't go ssj2.

Trunks still cried because he wasn't expecting to be hit. He had no guard up, or anything. And he still took a full punch from a Vegeta that was ssj. And that was without any proper training. Then he had the month or whatever of formal training by Vegeta to be even stronger. Vegeta at that time was also stronger than Cell.

And if what the Daizenshuu said is true, Gohan = Goten. And ssj Gohan fought Dabura nearly evenly without going ssj2. And Dabura = Perfect Cell > Cell Jrs.
Vegeta/Goku >= Cell Saga ssj Gohan > Trunks = Cell =Dabura > Buu Saga Gohan = Goten > Cell Jr. > Super Vegeta

One Big Mob

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yeah, but they weren't that much stronger. The only real difference was that they learned SSJ3 while they were fused.

And fighting evenly with a weakened SSJ1 Gohan certainly does NOT make you as powerful as a Cell Jr. SSJ1 Gohan from the Cell saga was weaker than Super Vegeta and Trunks, and they were both weaker than the Cell Jr.'s. Buu saga Gohan was less than HALF as strong as he was during the Cell saga, according to Vegeta.

So Cell Jr. > Super Vegeta > Cell saga MSSJ1 Gohan > Buu saga SSJ1 Gohan >= MSSJ1 Goten.

MSSJ1 Trunks was also more powerful than Goten, and even he was brought to tears by a serious hit from MSSJ1 Vegeta. Super Vegeta would have stomped him, and he was weaker than a Cell Jr.

Gotenks is the only way for Goten or Trunks to beat a Cell Jr. They MIGHT be able to win with teamwork, but it'd be a hell of a fight. Wait what? How do you figure during the Cell Games that Gohan was weaker than Vegeta and Trunks?

yungz22

end of buu sage trunks and goten have trained in the hyperbolic time chamber they can beat the androids they just stop at cell junior

SSJGGogeta

Originally posted by Kento
Training and its power increase are very plot heavy in DBZ. Also, they were actually seriously training for a goal, for the first time in their lives. Gotenks power stems from them, and Gotenks also got insanely more powerful compared to when they went in. Two weeks did a lot for them.

There isn't anything suggesting he went ssj2. Even Vegeta, who was incapable of going ssj2, was saying how he or Goku could have taken Dabura already. Gohan was weaker than when he fought Cell sure but nothing says that he was that much weaker. The lightning aura was around him during the tournament, and the same aura was around Goku and Vegeta when they went ssj2 fighting each other, so its not just Akira forgetting the aura around Gohan. He just didn't go ssj2.

Trunks still cried because he wasn't expecting to be hit. He had no guard up, or anything. And he still took a full punch from a Vegeta that was ssj. And that was without any proper training. Then he had the month or whatever of formal training by Vegeta to be even stronger. Vegeta at that time was also stronger than Cell.

And if what the Daizenshuu said is true, Gohan = Goten. And ssj Gohan fought Dabura nearly evenly without going ssj2. And Dabura = Perfect Cell > Cell Jrs.
Vegeta/Goku >= Cell Saga ssj Gohan > Trunks = Cell =Dabura > Buu Saga Gohan = Goten > Cell Jr. > Super Vegeta

1. Gotenks did NOT get that much more powerful. As I stated, the biggest differences between pre-ROSAT Gotenks, and post-ROSAT Gotenks were the super ghost kamikaze attack, and SSJ3. His base power level didn't change much, which is why he STILL was incapable of even damaging Buu in base form, and was only able to hurt him with sneak attacks in SSJ1.

2. What? Of course Vegeta could go SSJ2. He went SSJ2 multiple times in the Buu saga, like against Kid Buu. However, Vegeta and Goku's statement that Gohan was half as powerful as he was in the Cell saga wouldn't make sense if Gohan could fight a perfect Cell level opponent on par in SSJ1. The lightning is NOT always present when characters go SSJ2, as I have already proven several times in this thread alone. I can post a dozen scans of SSJ2's with no lightning aura, in case you don't agree.

Gohan was a SSJ2, and this is made noticeable by his hair, and more hardened features.

3. Vegeta was stronger than Cell. That is irrelevant.

You're speculating with this whole, "Trunks didn't have his guard up" thing. He was going at full power trying to attack Vegeta, which means his ki was at it's maximum. Which, in DBZ, translates to being ON-GUARD.

4. You're basing your entire argument on the false premise that Gohan didn't go SSJ2 against Dabura. Which is incorrect. Gohan DID go SSJ2 against Dabura, which is why Vegeta and Goku were so disappointed in him. It's also why Vegeta stated that he would beat Dabura easily, and why Goku said that Dabura would have been really tough, back when they fought Cell. But Vegeta and Goku could have beaten him as a SSJ1, and Gohan could only stalemate him as a SSJ2.

So again, Vegeta/Goku > Perfect Cell ~ Dabura ~ SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan > Cell Jr. ~ SSJ1 Trunks > SSJ1 Gohan ~ SSJ1 Goten.

Which is why I said it might be possible that Trunks and Goten together could beat a Cell Jr. They're not that far behind one in power, but the regeneration would be a huge factor, if Cell Jr.'s can regenerate like Cell, that is.

Kento

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Gotenks did NOT get that much more powerful. As I stated, the biggest differences between pre-ROSAT Gotenks, and post-ROSAT Gotenks were the super ghost kamikaze attack, and SSJ3. His base power level didn't change much, which is why he STILL was incapable of even damaging Buu in base form, and was only able to hurt him with sneak attacks in SSJ1.

2. What? Of course Vegeta could go SSJ2. He went SSJ2 multiple times in the Buu saga, like against Kid Buu. However, Vegeta and Goku's statement that Gohan was half as powerful as he was in the Cell saga wouldn't make sense if Gohan could fight a perfect Cell level opponent on par in SSJ1. The lightning is NOT always present when characters go SSJ2, as I have already proven several times in this thread alone. I can post a dozen scans of SSJ2's with no lightning aura, in case you don't agree.

Gohan was a SSJ2, and this is made noticeable by his hair, and more hardened features.

3. Vegeta was stronger than Cell. That is irrelevant.

You're speculating with this whole, "Trunks didn't have his guard up" thing. He was going at full power trying to attack Vegeta, which means his ki was at it's maximum. Which, in DBZ, translates to being ON-GUARD.

4. You're basing your entire argument on the false premise that Gohan didn't go SSJ2 against Dabura. Which is incorrect. Gohan DID go SSJ2 against Dabura, which is why Vegeta and Goku were so disappointed in him. It's also why Vegeta stated that he would beat Dabura easily, and why Goku said that Dabura would have been really tough, back when they fought Cell. But Vegeta and Goku could have beaten him as a SSJ1, and Gohan could only stalemate him as a SSJ2.

So again, Vegeta/Goku > Perfect Cell ~ Dabura ~ SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan > Cell Jr. ~ SSJ1 Trunks > SSJ1 Gohan ~ SSJ1 Goten.

Which is why I said it might be possible that Trunks and Goten together could beat a Cell Jr. They're not that far behind one in power, but the regeneration would be a huge factor, if Cell Jr.'s can regenerate like Cell, that is. The power they had as Gotenks went from being weaker than Fat Buu, so not much stronger than they are unfused to being a little bit stronger than Super Buu. Even with obtaining ssj3, which is also a part of showing they got a lot of power in a short time because ssj was only obtainable, Gotenks gained a lot of power.

But when Gohan fought Dabura Vegeta couldn't go ssj2. And Vegeta saying Gohan isn't as close to being the level he was when he fought Cell seems a more accurate statement than Gohan being half as powerful. Because SSJ Gohan in Cell Saga was stronger than Cell. So going from being stronger than Cell to barely being able to keep up with someone of Cells level at ssj would make him a lot weaker. And not once is Gohan shown having lighting aura around him while fighting while both ssj2 Goku and Vegeta are. And not once is Gohan shown with lighting against Buu while Goku and Vegeta are both ssj2 fighting each other, and lighting all around them. Its one thing too debate it coming from movies or something, but even Akira isn't so bad as to forget it on one character and then show two other characters have it, then next page the one character never having it.

There's no way Gohan was ssj2. Akira forgets details and what he wrote a lot but forgetting to give Gohan lightning aura during the same time giving Goku and Vegeta lightning aura just doesn't add up.

SSJGGogeta

Originally posted by Kento
The power they had as Gotenks went from being weaker than Fat Buu, so not much stronger than they are unfused to being a little bit stronger than Super Buu. Even with obtaining ssj3, which is also a part of showing they got a lot of power in a short time because ssj was only obtainable, Gotenks gained a lot of power.

But when Gohan fought Dabura Vegeta couldn't go ssj2. And Vegeta saying Gohan isn't as close to being the level he was when he fought Cell seems a more accurate statement than Gohan being half as powerful. Because SSJ Gohan in Cell Saga was stronger than Cell. So going from being stronger than Cell to barely being able to keep up with someone of Cells level at ssj would make him a lot weaker. And not once is Gohan shown having lighting aura around him while fighting while both ssj2 Goku and Vegeta are. And not once is Gohan shown with lighting against Buu while Goku and Vegeta are both ssj2 fighting each other, and lighting all around them. Its one thing too debate it coming from movies or something, but even Akira isn't so bad as to forget it on one character and then show two other characters have it, then next page the one character never having it.

There's no way Gohan was ssj2. Akira forgets details and what he wrote a lot but forgetting to give Gohan lightning aura during the same time giving Goku and Vegeta lightning aura just doesn't add up.

We only saw Pre-ROSAT BASE Gotenks get phucked up by Buu. SSJ1 is 50X stronger than base form, so it's safe to say that SSJ Gotenks pre-ROSAT would have done at least decent against fat Buu. And SSJ3 Gotenks was only a little stronger than Super Buu. SSJ1 Gotenks wasn't even able to hurt him, bearing super ghost kamikaze attack.

What? SSJ Gohan from the Cell saga was NOT stronger than Perfect Cell. SSJ Gohan was weaker than SSJ Goku, and Goku was weaker than Perfect Cell. Goku only sent Gohan in because he knew he could go SSJ2 and win.

Goku and Vegeta didn't have lightning around them during their entire fight. I can give scans.

You made the same point twice, so here ya go.

http://i3.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/457/dragon-ball-1951711.jpg

Vegeta clearly doesn't have lightning here, despite being SSJ2.

http://i3.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/461/dragon-ball-71752.jpg

Even more proof that Gohan was SSJ2, is how he EXPLICITLY states that he was at full power. His full power is in SSJ2, not SSJ1. thumb up

Kento

There's no way to solve the Gotenks debate. So.I'm gonna drop it.

Gohan was stronger than Goku.. That's why he assumed Goku was holding back. He kept up with the fight too easily and didn't think Goku was going all out because of it. Gohan was the most powerful person there. At the least he was even with Cell but be wasn't weaker than Goku.

Of course they don't have it around them BEFORE they got ssj2. But once they do they have the aura. Vegeta has it around him in his fight with Fat and Kid Buu also. Gohan has no lightning aura around him ever except in the tournament. It's unbelievable that Gohan is ssj2 and Akira forgot to put the aura around him when every single other scene involving ssj2 has the aura.

Gohans power fluctuate with anger. Right after that when Buu appears he says he might have a chance if he could get out his full power. And before that he talks about how be isn't angry as he was to pull out the power he knows he has. Even Kaioshin tells Gohan, after he blows up the Buu ball and said he was fully charged, to bring out his full power.

SSJGGogeta

Originally posted by Kento
There's no way to solve the Gotenks debate. So.I'm gonna drop it.

Gohan was stronger than Goku.. That's why he assumed Goku was holding back. He kept up with the fight too easily and didn't think Goku was going all out because of it. Gohan was the most powerful person there. At the least he was even with Cell but be wasn't weaker than Goku.

Of course they don't have it around them BEFORE they got ssj2. But once they do they have the aura. Vegeta has it around him in his fight with Fat and Kid Buu also. Gohan has no lightning aura around him ever except in the tournament. It's unbelievable that Gohan is ssj2 and Akira forgot to put the aura around him when every single other scene involving ssj2 has the aura.

Gohans power fluctuate with anger. Right after that when Buu appears he says he might have a chance if he could get out his full power. And before that he talks about how be isn't angry as he was to pull out the power he knows he has. Even Kaioshin tells Gohan, after he blows up the Buu ball and said he was fully charged, to bring out his full power.

Yes, because you're simply incorrect. thumb up

Gohan was not stronger than Goku, they were equal. THAT is the reason that Goku thought Goku was holding back, because he was used to being weaker than Goku, and he saw that Goku was only using the same amount of power as him. Which is why Gohan couldn't beat Cell without going SSJ2. Because he was weaker than Cell, as was Goku. Gohan MIGHT have been a smidge stronger than Goku, but not really enough to consider him more powerful. Just like how we consider SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta to be equals.

Okay, I don't care how unbelievable it is to you. Akira Toriyama forgot that Launch even existed, I'm sure it's not that much of a stretch to think that he forgot to put a little lightning aura around Gohan. However, the facts still stand. Gohan said he was at FULL POWER, and his hair AND pupils were in SSJ2 style, not his relaxed SSJ1 demeanor. There is more proof saying he is SSJ2, than there is saying that he's SSJ1. It is too contradictory, and there is nothing that contradicts him being a SSJ2. In fact, him being a SSJ2 makes THE MOST sense, given that he was half as strong as he was during the Cell saga, and SSJ2 is a 2X boost to SSJ1. That would make SSJ2 Buu saga Gohan EQUAL to Perfect Cell, who is roughly as strong as Dabura. This makes a lot of sense, given that Dabura and Gohan were equals, and Goku and Vegeta both commented how pitiful it was that Gohan had gotten so much weaker.

Supreme Kai was just boasting, and talking big because he thought Gohan just killed Buu. And he didn't insinuate that Gohan hadn't been at full power, he just said, "Bring out your full power, we're almost done!", because the plan was for Gohan to kill Dabura. Not to mention that Supreme Kai is HORRIBLE at gauging someone's strength. He most likely can't even sense ki, which is why he didn't feel Buu's ki growing so fast that Gohan literally nearly shat himself.