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All at their peak. Also:
* Vitiate is at his physical peak (physical form)
** Talzin gets her Dathomir feats
*** Kun gets his amulets

Setting: the Senate Rotunda

No amp/prep time.

Who wins?

Team 1.

Team 2

Anyone else?

Hmm...

Vitiate > Talzin

Caedus > Kun

HoT ? Wyyrlok

Originally posted by Stigma
Hmm...

Vitiate > Talzin

Caedus > Kun

HoT ? Wyyrlok

In a fight like this? Vitiate and Talzin would be a close fight. Caedus is much superior to Kun, and Wyyrlok would give HoT a very very good fight, I'd give him the edge too.

Team two takes it.

Vitiate > Talzin

Kun can probably beat Caedus

HoT > Wyyrlok.

Team 2.

Vitiate is the most powerful on the field, but Caedus is the best swordsman. Additionally Talzin is close to Vitiate in power. Wyyrlok is superior to the HoT, and his illusions will come in handy.

I'd say

Talzin could hold off vitiate as she was able to hold off Darth Sidious who is more powerful than Vititae. So she could hold him off.

Caedus beats Kun.

Wyyrlock could possibly beat HoT. I'd say he edges out barely.

Caedus could help whoever is struggling so he could either help Talzin or Wyyrlock.

I'd say Caedus maybe the most powerful on this field however I understand if anyone thinks differently.

Talzin's powers could probably hold Vitiate off long enough for Caedus to defeat Kun, which is the deciding fight in my opinion.

HoT seems to have enough mental fortitude and resiliency to withstand Wyyrlok's Sorcery - and in a clash of sabers, Wyyrlok is going down.

Still, team 2 probably wins, but there's at least a case to be made for team 1.

Caedus is the tipping point Team 2

Kun needs more respect.

Losing to Caedus isn't disrespecting Kun. Caedus is just on par with and slightly better then Plagueis, and on par and slightly worse then Yoda.

But yes. After Caedus wins his fight, he'll clean house with the rest of Team 1.

Maybe he'll beat Kun, but not as fast as the other two fights end tbh.

mmm

Vitiate would pour more and more lightning on Talzin until she is overwhelmed. A lighting clash would most likely end quicker than an all out duel. Kun is good enough to stall Caedus for a decent amount of time. And since HoT > Wyyrlok as well, I think team 1 wins this.

Caedus would also wipe the floor with Hero lest we forget

Team 1.

Originally posted by carthage
Caedus would also wipe the floor with Hero lest we forget
True.

And then we'll have Kun vs. Wyyrlok, which is an interesting fight.

Originally posted by carthage
Caedus would also wipe the floor with Hero lest we forget

And Vitiate could do the same to Wyyrlok.

Love the profile pic btw Sinny. LOL

Originally posted by Sinious
And Vitiate could do the same to Wyyrlok. So that leaves Talzin vs. Kun and I give it to Talzin.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Love the profile pic btw Sinny. LOL

Thanks

Originally posted by Stigma
So that leaves Talzin vs. Kun and I give it to Talzin.

And while that happens, Caedus will get killed by Vitiate(though I admit it would take longer than Talzin vs Kun). But you make it sound like HoT will die as fast as Wyyrlok which isn't the case.

Caedus is more than enough to handle Vitiate. A guy who can control entire worlds/ colonies of Kiliks couldn't mind control him and unamped Vitiate's lightning isn't as powerful as a turbolaser. He could hold him off a any point long enough for Talzin to kill Hero

Originally posted by carthage
Caedus is more than enough to handle Vitiate. A guy who can control entire worlds/ colonies of Kiliks couldn't mind control him and unamped Vitiate's lightning isn't as powerful as a turbolaser. He could hold him off a any point long enough for Talzin to kill Hero

And while all these happen Kun will kill Wyyrlok.

You and Stigma keep on matching 4 characters and ignore the other 2 as you wish which of course always ends with team 2 duo winning and unlike you, I don't look solely on feats to place characters. Even as of SoR, Revan is considered to be no match for Vitiate. This is Revan where he TK'ed Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana, Wrath/Nox + 3 non force users at the same time and lightning is Vitiate's most powerful ability so I'm confident that he is powerful enough to undo Caedus with it.

Vitiate > Caedus.

Kun > Talzin.

HoT > Wyyrlok.

Ancients win.

Originally posted by Sinious
And while all these happen Kun will kill Wyyrlok.

You and Stigma keep on matching 4 characters and ignore the other 2 as you wish which of course always ends with team 2 duo winning
Not at all. I already mentioned all 6 fighters, albeit in two separate posts.

Going with your observations:

Vitiate > Wyyrlok.

But: Caedus > HoT and Talzin > Kun

Kun is actually tailor-made for beating Talzin.

Originally posted by Stigma
Not at all. I already mentioned all 6 fighters, albeit in two separate posts.

Going with your observations:

Vitiate > Wyyrlok.

But: Caedus > HoT and Talzin > Kun

Vitiate vs Wyyrlok will end a lot faster than the other 2 fights. It'll be 3 on 2 immediately.

What if Vitiate TP enslaves Wyyrlok from the start? It would not work on the other two but Wyyrlok is certainly susceptible.

Originally posted by AncientPower
What if Vitiate TP enslaves Wyyrlok from the start? It would not work on the other two but Wyyrlok is certainly susceptible.

I wasn't sure if Wyyrlok has any TP or willpower showings of any sort so I didn't mention it. But in that case, this will be an easier victory for team 1.

Wyyrlok, whose specialty lies in sorcery/illusions/tp, is going to get TP enslaved from the get-go?

I doubt that very much.

By Vitiate though.

Nah

Team 1 solidly.

Vitiate will disorient the entire Team 2 with his powers and his allies will shorten the inevitable.

Originally posted by Sinious
And while all these happen Kun will kill Wyyrlok.

You and Stigma keep on matching 4 characters and ignore the other 2 as you wish which of course always ends with team 2 duo winning and unlike you, I don't look solely on feats to place characters. Even as of SoR, Revan is considered to be no match for Vitiate. This is Revan where he TK'ed Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana, Wrath/Nox + 3 non force users at the same time and lightning is Vitiate's most powerful ability so I'm confident that he is powerful enough to undo Caedus with it.
Vitiate's most powerful ability is Force Drain.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I'd say

Talzin could hold off vitiate as she was able to hold off Darth Sidious who is more powerful than Vititae. So she could hold him off.
Darth Sidious (Canon) is stronger then Vitiate? FANON nonsense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Sidious (Canon) is stronger then Vitiate? FANON nonsense.

Yes. Your fanboyism for vitiate isn't going to work on me and any quote from any person in TOR era doesn't count as they have no knowledge of sidious or Caedus or anyone after vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Vitiate's most powerful ability is Force Drain.

Why? He never used it in combat and more importantly, this is Vitate in his physical form.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vitiate > Caedus.

Kun > Talzin.

HoT > Wyyrlok.

Ancients win.


Kun is not above Talzin, I don't think that HoT is above Wyyrlok, and Caedus and Vitiate is a toss up.

I'd say Talzin could fend off Vitiate long enough for Caedus to kill Kun. Then whoever wins between HoT or Wyyrlock the other two can defeat the HoT or Wyyrlock wins.

Originally posted by carthage
Caedus is the tipping point Team 2

Wait, we need to get back to this Exar Kun beating Dathomir enhanced Talzin first. That's not happening.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


I'm glad you and I both agreed he's better than Sheev

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Kun is not above Talzin, I don't think that HoT is above Wyyrlok, and Caedus and Vitiate is a toss up.

Her sorcery would be moot against one of the single greatest sorcerers ever.
He is a far better duelist than she is.
His Force defense is unbeaten against even the strongest Force techniques.
He is far stronger, faster and more durable.
She isn't stopping a Force Blast.
If she decides to go spirit mode well we saw what happened to Freedon Nadd.

HoT has killed a bunch of Sith Lords and Darths with comfort and killed the Voice of the Emperor himself, whom despite being weakened is well above Wyyrlok III.

Vitiate has far more strength in the Force, Caedus is far more capable as s duelist. In this kind of Force mega powers contest the Force is more prevalent.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yes. Your fanboyism for vitiate isn't going to work on me and any quote from any person in TOR era doesn't count as they have no knowledge of sidious or Caedus or anyone after vitiate.
It is your opinion, not an official canon declaration.

Vitiate is shown to be more powerful then any Sith by virtue of his feats and accomplishments. It is logical to focus on these factors when evaluating characters. It doesn't matters if Darths Sidious and Caedus existed in TOR era or not, Vitiate have relatively superior showings and official hype then both. In addition, Vitiate is officially superior to super-strong Force-users such as Revan, Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus and Soa - The Infernal One.

Also, we all are fans. So singling me out in this respect is ironic.

Originally posted by Sinious
Why? He never used it in combat and more importantly, this is Vitate in his physical form.
Vitiate used Force Drain powers in offensive manner on Yavin IV and Ziost. Also, physical body does not deters an individual to use Force Drain powers in combat situations or in offensive manner. Vitiate's inferiors have demonstrated the capability to use Force Drain powers in combat situations so why can't he?

DE Sidious =/> Vitiate > ROTS Sidious > Caedus.

That would be my ranking roughly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate used Force Drain powers in offensive manner on Yavin IV and Ziost. Also, physical body does not deters an individual to use Force Drain powers in combat situations or in offensive manner.

I never said he didn't use it in offensive manner, I said he didn't use it in combat.



Cause that's not how it works?

Originally posted by Sinious
I never said he didn't use it in offensive manner, I said he didn't use it in combat.
What exactly is a combat situation? It is meaningless term.

It takes a mere thought or gesture to perform Force Drain powers.

Originally posted by Sinious
Cause that's not how it works?
Lord Draahg using Force Drain:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4496159-7030469460-vn2pY.gif

"In minutes, the great Darth Vowrawn will disintegrate."

---

Whether facing a traitorous fellow Sith or a crowd of Republic soldiers, the Inquisitor fights with unlimited fury to create a storm of destruction. Expertise in conducting Force energies further allows Inquisitors to draw upon the life essence of themselves and others. This energy can be channeled to bolster their powers, harm their foes, and even to reinvigorate their allies.

Taken from SWTOR (Holonet)

Then why didn't Vitiate ever use drain in combat? I'm not saying he is incapable of it but it doesn't seem to be his most powerful attack.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Sidious (Canon) is stronger then Vitiate? FANON nonsense. Calm down.Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is your opinion, not an official canon declaration.

...

Also, we all are fans. So singling me out in this respect is ironic.And yet you dismiss those who disagree with your opinion as fanboys spouting fan fiction.

Ironic indeed. I await an official canon declaration to support the above.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Her sorcery would be moot against one of the single greatest sorcerers ever.Neither appear to favour sorcery based offenses in combat, so it's a moot point.
That doesn't guarantee him a win however. Mace Windu is a far better duelist than Talzin, but was driven back by the ferocity of her attack.Exar Kun's ability to shrug off Odan-Urr's sever force attack (which lets face it was never going to work) does not make him immune to Talzin's far more potent offensive powers.

Really Exar Kun's defense powers are largely untested, not unbeaten.You appear to be forgetting that Talzin is "a powerhouse that could go toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious", he is not going to be far stronger, faster or more durable by any means.
She stopped the combined lightning of Sidious and Dooku, she is stopping a Force Blast.
Not really, in regards to the Force they are comparable in many respects. Caedus on the other hand is indeed far more superior duelist, and in a the duel that Caedus will push for, that superior martial expertise will net him a win.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is your opinion, not an official canon declaration.

Vitiate is shown to be more powerful then any Sith by virtue of his feats and accomplishments. It is logical to focus on these factors when evaluating characters. It doesn't matters if Darths Sidious and Caedus existed in TOR era or not, Vitiate have relatively superior showings and official hype then both. In addition, Vitiate is officially superior to super-strong Force-users such as Revan, Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus and Soa - The Infernal One.

Also, we all are fans. So singling me out in this respect is ironic.

My opinion that quotes from people who didn't know about Sidious or Caedus don't count? No it's fact?That's like saying George Washington saying that the British of that time have the best army that world has ever know or will ever know. That can't be taken into complete fact as look where America is now, we would destroy that army back then. You see time progresses and things happens so people of that time, quotes don't really hold as much weight as they don't know about Luke Skywlaker, Darth Caedus, Darth Sidious, Plagues, or any force weilder of those calibers after vitiate. Now showings, video games, don't count, novelizations do though. Just saying that so you will know. Also Sidious definitely would have all of his knowledge as the rule of two principles took from every era of SITH and Jedi, that would include vitiate, and yes I know about the SITH who basically destroyed all of the old SITH teachings that would include essence transfer, yet we see he has that ability and also knows SITH alchemy and its stated he had a knowledge of all known SITH abilities. Vitiates rituals are accomplishments but don't due to him credit as they require him assistance which he wouldn't get. Also when vitiate needed 8000 SITH lords to drain a planet, Sidious was able to do it by himself in his first known try. Sidious has cannon that states he is the most powerful SITH and has feats.

Originally posted by AncientPower
DE Sidious =/> Vitiate > ROTS Sidious > Caedus.

That would be my ranking roughly.
Nah.

DE Sidious > RotJ Sidious > RotS Sidious > Vitiate.

Even RotS Sidious can take Vitiate in prime physical form as specified in this thread.

Sidious is faster, stronger, much more skilled, vastly superior with a blade, has comparable Force power that will be enough to match Viti, Viti's TP won't work on Sidious either. TBH a proper fight goes strongly in Sidious's favor.

RotJ Sidious with more knowledge and power accomulated over his former self and especially DE Sidious are even more ahead of Vitiate.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vitiate has far more strength in the Force, Caedus is far more capable as s duelist. In this kind of Force mega powers contest the Force is more prevalent.
True. But Caedus is faster, he can make it a close-quarters fight. If that happens, Viti falls.

Originally posted by Sinious
Then why didn't Vitiate ever use drain in combat? I'm not saying he is incapable of it but it doesn't seem to be his most powerful attack.
Vitiate didn't choke someone in combat situation either, so should we assume that he cannot?

Versus scenarios aren't PIS or story-driven, they are neutral and all options are considered. Its not like that I am strictly assuming that Vitiate is a master of Force Drain powers and can consider them for offensive purposes, my argument is based on documented evidence. Situations are irrelevant. Vitiate utilizes Force Drain powers to fuel his own power and he have demonstratively consumed/killed many with such powers.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Calm down.
I am calm.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And yet you dismiss those who disagree with your opinion as fanboys spouting fan fiction.

Ironic indeed. I await an official canon declaration to support the above.
What is your point?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not really, in regards to the Force they are comparable in many respects. Caedus on the other hand is indeed far more superior duelist, and in a the duel that Caedus will push for, that superior martial expertise will net him a win.
And Vitiate's powers won't do anything to Darth Caedus, right?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am calm.Then cease raging at people who disagree with you.
That it makes you look like a silly hypocrite.http://r30.imgfast.net/users/3013/11/32/39/smiles/1742136542.gif

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
My opinion that quotes from people who didn't know about Sidious or Caedus don't count? No it's fact?That's like saying George Washington saying that the British of that time have the best army that world has ever know or will ever know. That can't be taken into complete fact as look where America is now, we would destroy that army back then.
What exactly have Darths Sidious and Caedus demonstrated in person that is not rivaled or surpassed by Vitiate? Anything remarkable?

Nothing.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
You see time progresses and things happens so people of that time, quotes don't really hold as much weight as they don't know about Luke Skywlaker, Darth Caedus, Darth Sidious, Plagues, or any force weilder of those calibers after vitiate.
Vitiate's hype is not restricted to in-universe perceptions of his peers. He is promoted as the most powerful and dominant Force-user ever at official capacity in TOR era sources in general.

How Vitiate - once his story is complete - would be perceived in sources other then those of TOR era, we will never know; continuity split have squandered any chances for this assessment.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Now showings, video games, don't count, novelizations do though. Just saying that so you will know.
Canon dictums do not apply on Vitiate.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Also Sidious definitely would have all of his knowledge as the rule of two principles took from every era of SITH and Jedi, that would include vitiate, and yes I know about the SITH who basically destroyed all of the old SITH teachings that would include essence transfer, yet we see he has that ability and also knows SITH alchemy and its stated he had a knowledge of all known SITH abilities.
Sidious doesn't knows everything and Vitiate is not among the most well-known individuals. The archives are incomplete.

Considering Legends continuity even, Sidious had ample knowledge of Darth Malgus's exploits and powers but not much about Vitiate.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Vitiates rituals are accomplishments but don't due to him credit as they require him assistance which he wouldn't get.
You are terribly mistaken. Nathema ritual is the only known event in which Vitiate acquired assistance from others, but this was much earlier in his life. Vitiate continued to grow in power afterwards.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Also when vitiate needed 8000 SITH lords to drain a planet, Sidious was able to do it by himself in his first known try. Sidious has cannon that states he is the most powerful SITH and has feats.
You don't know much about Vitiate. You have lot of catching up to do.

For consultation:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-at-planet-ziost/105050/

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/power-progression-and-evolution-of-emperor-vitiate/105016/

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/emperor-vitiate-respect-thread/97466/

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exar Kun's ability to shrug off Odan-Urr's sever force attack (which lets face it was never going to work) does not make him immune to Talzin's far more potent offensive powers.

Really Exar Kun's defense powers are largely untested, not unbeaten.

He also walked through bombing runs.

And survived Aleema Keto's blast which reduced a servant to a charred corpse

"Survived", lol. I don't think he even noticed it tbh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What exactly have Darths Sidious and Caedus demonstrated in person that is not rivaled or surpassed by Vitiate? Anything remarkable?

Nothing.


Vitiate's hype is not restricted to in-universe perceptions of his peers. He is promoted as the most powerful and dominant Force-user ever at official capacity in TOR era sources in general.

How Vitiate - once his story is complete - would be perceived in sources other then those of TOR era, we will never know; continuity split have squandered any chances for this assessment.


Canon dictums do not apply on Vitiate.


Sidious doesn't knows everything and Vitiate is not among the most well-known individuals. The archives are incom

plete.

Considering Legends continuity even, Sidious had ample knowledge of Darth Malgus's exploits and powers but not much about Vitiate.


You are terribly mistaken. Nathema ritual is the only known event in which Vitiate acquired assistance from others, but this was much earlier in his life. Vitiate continued to grow in power afterwards.


You don't know much about Vitiate. You have lot of catching up to do. Have you read my blogs concerning Vitiate?

Sidious has force storm and Caedus oneness. While I accept your opinion for vitiate I must respectfully disagree as cannon soucres go with Sidious and vitiate is really just some random person that they made who really is beaten by Sidious, however it's not a stomp but it's a win for Sidious with a 7/10 win IMO.

So to is Sidious is more cannon sources. Cannon beats TOR sources in general.

Cannon trumps anything vitiate says. If Lucas or Disney say Sidious is more powerful than that's just the way it is. Like Luke for instance, he is the most powerful force weilder ever has been and ever will be, no other force weilder can or will ever top him.

Well either way it goes he's material was destroyed during a link in the Rule of two Sidious recovered some if not a lot of it as one of the abilities lost was Essence transfer and he can do that. Also he can perform SITH rituals so he definitely,y has a knowledge of archaic things. I believe he has a knowlegde of all known SITH abilities.


Matters how as weren't Malgus and vitiate in the same era? Also this could translate that he knew something about who Malgus was under and thus would have some read on his power.

Well a ritual none the less so no I don't believe I'm mistaken for the instance that I've showed. While I'm willing to agree that vitiate grew more powerful I'm still of the popular opinion Sidious is more powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate didn't choke someone in combat situation either, so should we assume that he cannot?

Versus scenarios aren't PIS or story-driven, they are neutral and all options are considered. Its not like that I am strictly assuming that Vitiate is a master of Force Drain powers and can consider them for offensive purposes, my argument is based on documented evidence. Situations are irrelevant. Vitiate utilizes Force Drain powers to fuel his own power and he have demonstratively consumed/killed many with such powers.

Again I didn't say he is incapable of drain.

Vitiate is capable of defeating anyone in his era with his lightning. If drain was an even more effective ability for him, he would have used it a lot since he is a big time drainer(even had a cult of worshipers for him to drain for centuries). So why didn't a guy who is so into draining others never used this ability in combat? Probably cause his lightning is more powerful and therefor more preferable for him in a combat situation.

Originally posted by Sinious
Again I didn't say he is incapable of drain.

Vitiate is capable of defeating anyone in his era with his lightning. If drain was an even more effective ability for him, he would have used it a lot since he is a big time drainer(even had a cult of worshipers for him to drain for centuries). So why didn't a guy who is so into draining others never used this ability in combat? Probably cause his lightning is more powerful and therefor more preferable for him in a combat situation.
Vitiate seems to decide his course of action according to the magnitude of challenge he comes across.

For example, Vitiate one-shotted a Sith Strike Team led by Darth Lokess (an entire rebellious Dark Council) with an unexplained sorcery/technique. It is obvious that Vitiate could not afford to toy with opposition of such magnitude and rather had to act swiftly and utilize one of his most potent abilities to ensure his survival.

On Ziost, Vitiate created a Death Field and spread it across the planet after attempts were made to thwart his actions on this planet by Jedi and Sith. Vitiate's objective was to destroy all life on the planet and he decided his course of action accordingly.

---

As far as the lore is concerned, authors have to tell a story. If Vitiate is depicted going all-out in every situation then their would be no story to tell.

I have one problem here: Revan.

Vitiate failed to toy with him and he was more powerful when he faced Revan compared to when he one-shotted the Dark Council. So I'm inclined to believe that his unexplained sorcery is most likely not an attack he can instantaneously replicate anytime he wants and so it proves how capable Vitiate is with sorcery but it does't represent his true capabilities on even ground.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As far as the lore is concerned, authors have to tell a story. If Vitiate is depicted going all-out in every situation then their would be no story to tell.

This is the case with Luke Skywalker - yet you shit all over him and try to lowball him when compared to Vitiate every chance you get.

Originally posted by Sinious
I have one problem here: Revan.

Vitiate failed to toy with him and he was more powerful when he faced Revan compared to when he one-shotted the Dark Council. So I'm inclined to believe that his unexplained sorcery is most likely not an attack he can instantaneously replicate anytime he wants and so it proves how capable Vitiate is with sorcery but it does't represent his true capabilities on even ground.

Revan >>> Nihilus though bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan >>> Nihilus though bro.

Hmm?

Meetra says that Mando Wars Revan has a better command of the Force than any she had met. Darth Revan gets stronger than Mando Revan, Malak gets stronger than Darth Revan, Malak gets massively boosted by the Star Forge, Prodigal Knight Revan beats his ass over and over then recovers his memory and gets stronger as Revan Reborn and gets smacked down by Vitiate.

So actually it's Vitiate >> Revan > Revan >> Malak > Malak > Revan > Revan > Malak > Nihilus. >>>>> Meetra > Kreia.

Duh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meetra says that Mando Wars Revan has a better command of the Force than any she had met. Darth Revan gets stronger than Mando Revan, Malak gets stronger than Darth Revan, Malak gets massively boosted by the Star Forge, Prodigal Knight Revan beats his ass over and over then recovers his memory and gets stronger as Revan Reborn and gets smacked down by Vitiate.

So actually it's Vitiate >> Revan > Revan >> Malak > Malak > Revan > Revan > Malak > Nihilus. >>>>> Meetra > Kreia.

Duh.

Ohhhh of course!

Well in that case, Vitiate > Ones confirmed.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Sidious has force storm and Caedus oneness.
You need to differentiate between Canon and Legends Darth Sidious first. Canon Sidious doesn't have knowledge of Force Storm.

Darth Caedus's oneness experience is a one time event. It is not something that can be considered for versus scenarios.

If you are highlighting greatest Force abilities then keep in mind that Vitiate have command of Force Drain powers with which he can ravage entire worlds. No, I am not referring to developments on Medriaas (i.e. Nathema); I am referring to developments on Ziost.

Among Sidious, Caedus, and Vitiate, only Vitiate have on-screen and concrete demonstration of ravaging an entire world with his powers.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
While I accept your opinion for vitiate I must respectfully disagree as cannon soucres go with Sidious and vitiate is really just some random person that they made who really is beaten by Sidious, however it's not a stomp but it's a win for Sidious with a 7/10 win IMO.
You need to understand the difference between Legends and Canon continuities.

In Canon continuity, Vitiate doesn't exists. Sidious's standing in canon is irrelevant for Vitiate due to this reason.

In Legends continuity, Sidious have considerable hype in sources predating introduction of Vitiate to the mythos. After the latter development (i.e. introduction of Vitiate to the mythos), Sidious's hype is no more apparent. You won't find a source that covers both Vitiate and Sidious in great detail and promotes Sidious as the most powerful Force-user or practitioner of the dark side. No such source exists.

I shall make one thing clear to you; its not that I don't take Sidious's hype seriously. My point of contention is that consistency in promotion of a character is important for a lore that continuously expands with passage of time and that we need to look further then hype to evaluate characters. If Vitiate can ravage an entire world with his powers and Sidious haven't matched this feat then Vitiate deserves the benefit of doubt for being relatively superior. Aside from powers, Vitiate have grown in power in a span of centuries. It is unrealistic to assume that Vitiate will be weaker then a 60 year old mortal individual after such span of growth in power. I am just being realistic.

Aside from hype, we have feats and accomplishments to consider for evaluation. And Vitiate have superior feats and accomplishments then Sidious. This is what I am trying to tell you.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So to is Sidious is more cannon sources. Cannon beats TOR sources in general.
See above

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Cannon trumps anything vitiate says. If Lucas or Disney say Sidious is more powerful than that's just the way it is. Like Luke for instance, he is the most powerful force weilder ever has been and ever will be, no other force weilder can or will ever top him.
Canon argument is covered above. Mr. Lucas and Disney haven't made such declarations.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well either way it goes he's material was destroyed during a link in the Rule of two Sidious recovered some if not a lot of it as one of the abilities lost was Essence transfer and he can do that. Also he can perform SITH rituals so he definitely,y has a knowledge of archaic things. I believe he has a knowlegde of all known SITH abilities.
These are Legends continuity related developments. Sidious did focus on exploring the dark side to great extent but him having knowledge of all known Sith abilities is stretching it.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Matters how as weren't Malgus and vitiate in the same era? Also this could translate that he knew something about who Malgus was under and thus would have some read on his power.
Yes, they co-existed. Their is no official information about Sidious having knowledge of Vitiate's capabilities and power.

Gnost Dural, a famous Jedi historian, once stated that Vitiate is shrouded in mystery and not much is known about him and his exploits in the galaxy at large. It is possible that the Jedi Order attempted to conceal Vitiate's actions from the public and/or destroyed records featuring him so that no one is able to benefit from such information in the future.

Plagueis clearly had some knowledge on Vitiate's abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plagueis clearly had some knowledge on Vitiate's abilities.
He didn't knew much either. Most of what he knew was hearsay.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to differentiate between Canon and Legends Darth Sidious first. Canon Sidious doesn't have knowledge of Force Storm.

Darth Caedus's oneness experience is a one time event. It is not something that can be considered for versus scenarios.

If you are highlighting greatest Force abilities then keep in mind that Vitiate have command of Force Drain powers with which he can ravage entire worlds. No, I am not referring to developments on Medriaas (i.e. Nathema); I am referring to developments on Ziost.

Among Sidious, Caedus, and Vitiate, only Vitiate have on-screen and concrete demonstration of ravaging an entire world with his powers.


You need to understand the difference between Legends and Canon continuities.

In Canon continuity, Vitiate doesn't exists. Sidious's standing in canon is irrelevant for Vitiate due to this reason.

In Legends continuity, Sidious have considerable hype in sources predating introduction of Vitiate to the mythos. After the latter development (i.e. introduction of Vitiate to the mythos), Sidious's hype is no more apparent. You won't find a source that covers both Vitiate and Sidious in great detail and promotes Sidious as the most powerful Force-user or practitioner of the dark side. No such source exists.

I shall make one thing clear to you; its not that I don't take Sidious's hype seriously. My point of contention is that consistency in promotion of a character is important for a lore that continuously expands with passage of time and that we need to look further then hype to evaluate characters. If Vitiate can ravage an entire world with his powers and Sidious haven't matched this feat then Vitiate deserves the benefit of doubt for being relatively superior. Aside from powers, Vitiate have grown in power in a span of centuries. It is unrealistic to assume that Vitiate will be weaker then a 60 year old mortal individual after such span of growth in power. I am just being realistic.

Aside from hype, we have feats and accomplishments to consider for evaluation. And Vitiate have superior feats and accomplishments then Sidious. This is what I am trying to tell you.


See above


Canon argument is covered above. Mr. Lucas and Disney haven't made such declarations.


These are Legends continuity related developments. Sidious did focus on exploring the dark side to great extent but him having knowledge of all known Sith abilities is stretching it.


Yes, they co-existed. Their is no official information about Sidious having knowledge of Vitiate's capabilities and power.

Gnost Dural, a famous Jedi historian, once stated that Vitiate is shrouded in mystery and not much is known about him and his exploits in the galaxy at large. It is possible that the Jedi Order attempted to conceal Vitiate's actions from the public and/or destroyed records featuring him so that no one is able to benefit from such information in the future.

Well to make it fair for everyone we will stick with the legends Sidious, so he and vitiate are on the same playing field. Let's begin. Well all depends on his state I believe as wasn't he capable of it when he was a Jedi but when turned to a SITH was unable to. However it is a feat and an extrordinary one so yes we are going to use that one.

Now as you suggested I read your respect thread for vitiate. I also read a respect thread for Sidious. To tell you truth I was impressed with your work and must say good job man. However based on the comparison, Vitiate hasn't really got anything on Sidious. For example I know this is not what you're looking for but let's compare first tries. Vitiate needed 8000 SITH and 10 days of preparation to drain a planet on his first try. Sidious needed himself and much less time. 20 billion people he mind controlled with seemingly little effort.

As we are going by legends IMO only video games don't really count as they create powers and boost them to levels fit for the game, not to the cannon or legends continuity.

I do understand the difference so we will stick with legends. Well that's why we have proof, and just a side note that maybe why legends didn't bother with it as cannon had already said who was the better SITH. While both are powerful I must say that vitiate isn't the greatest practioner of the dark side ever. The Son is there, Abeloth, The Father, and Sidious all stand in his way.

Realistic hmm. See now I think you are behind on Sidious. As before Dark Empire he was able to cause a storm to appear on Vjun just as a holograph. While vitiate Dramund Kass was always encased in clouds of energy due to his rituals. Which is greater someone who can create a storm without the need to physically be on the planet or someone who uses rituals which causes that planet to appear in the way it does? Also this was done again before his prime. Also he was also able to absorb and ravage a world and keep the people(20 billion) under his control. Also his force storms were able to ravage the surface of worlds and rip holes in the galaxy. Pretty impressive.

Now what I'm telling you is your days of putting vitiate in a pedestal and keeping Sidious down is over.

Are you sure. There have been plenty of sources. You should check sidious' respect thread.

Then what logic do you have he doesn't have the ability to know all known SITH abilities especially by the time of DE. He had plagues as his master someone who delved very deeply into the dark side and also had the tilted plagues the wise and has produced the most powerful SITH lord of all time. Also during his 20+ years as emperor what do you think he was doing all that time. Exploring the dark side even further. So yes it's very plausible that he knows all SITH abilities and also it is stated that he has a knowledge of all SITH abilities and makes up ones at his pleasure.

There is nothing against it either. As the Rule of two was basically 1000 years of knowledge not from each other but form the Jedi and past SITH which would include vitiate. Also didn't Darth Bane the founder of the rule of two become inspired due to a Holocron from Darth Revan? Revan and vitiate were in the same time span as vitiate spanned for 4000+ years. So yes it definitely highly possible if not so that Sidious has knowledge or at the least some knowledge of who vitiate is and what his power was.

Well that seem to stop Sidious from learning many arcane SITH abilities which vitiate would have no doubt used or even made himself. What era was this Jedi. Was he during vitiates era or Sidious?