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So curious folks, how does the list of the various Criminal Underworld factions go?

At the top is of course the Black Sun, straightforward it's literally inside the galaxy, everywhere possible, involved in all manner of things and cemented as the most powerful Crime Organization in the galaxy thanks to Prince Xizor up until his untimely death.

But where would the others rank?

I'd disagree about the Black Sun being #1. The Shadow Collective took over the Black Sun, 2000 systems, and almost overcame the Separatist Army IIRC

BioWare really hyped up the Hutts as their own faction really, that both the Emprie and Republic needed help from.

The Hutts were also a big deal in the Clone Wars, due to the amount of Hutt controlled space, and Maul got them in the Shadow Collective for a while there. I'm still holding Shadow Collective at #1.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'd disagree about the Black Sun being #1. The Shadow Collective took over the Black Sun, 2000 systems, and almost overcame the Separatist Army IIRC

I'm speaking of Legends really, in which the Black Sun is number 1. Black Sun surpassed pretty much all including the Hutts thanks to Xizor.

Canon sure I can see the Shadow Collective, but including Legends I don't think so.

Even in legends the Shadow Collective absorbed the Black Sun and took over 2000 systems via Mandalore.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Even in legends the Shadow Collective absorbed the Black Sun and took over 2000 systems via Mandalore.

Right but this wasn't peak Black Sun anyway, peak Black Sun under Xizor is still the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy.

Plus I'm not really counting the Shadow, because it wasn't really a Criminal Organization that did things such as gun running, smuggling, extortion and what not. All it was, was just a collective in order to garnder Sidious' attention and bring Maul back to him.

Ah, I suppose that's fair then.

Depends what is considered "criminal underground" and what isn't. I doubt there is much that can stand against the Hutt Empire during its heyday.

Originally posted by ares834
Depends what is considered "criminal underground" and what isn't. I doubt there is much that can stand against the Hutt Empire during its heyday.

Ya know, smuggling, gun running, drugs, extortion, bribery, information gathering, black market trading, assassination, political corruption, etc so on and so forth.

If it helps here's the list as I see it to rank

Black Sun

Hutt Cartel

The Exchange

Zann Cosortium

Czerka

Those guys.

Hutt Empire sounds like a good bet then.

Originally posted by ares834
Hutt Empire sounds like a good bet then.

Ok so Hutts for 2nd, I was kinda thinking that too.

But anyone want to challenge this?

I'd say the Zann Consortium actually considering that after the deaths of Xizor and Jabba, they practically took control of the underworld, and possessed fleets that could challenge both the Empire and Rebellion, as well as the employ of some of the best bounty hunters in the business.

The Hutt Cartel would certainly be second to them however, and #2 before they arrived. If not #1 during the Old Republic era.

The Hutt Empire was the biggest power around for awhile. I'd put it well above the Black Sun.

Originally posted by ares834
The Hutt Empire was the biggest power around for awhile. I'd put it well above the Black Sun.

Except at the height of the Black Sun, it already surpassed the Hutts. Plus the Hutt Empire didn't have the scope of the Black Sun anyway.

Originally posted by ares834
The Hutt Empire was the biggest power around for awhile. I'd put it well above the Black Sun. *Cartel

Sure, but they never reached the scope and influence that the Black Sun did.

I'd suggest you read Wolf's respect thread tbh:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/wolfrazer/blog/star-wars-a-look-at-the-black-sun/100142/

I believe he's referring to the Hutt Empire, which was the major Galactic power at some point prior to the formation of the republic.


I myself am unsure that would actually qualify as a criminal syndicate however.

How is the Hutt Empire a criminal syndicate?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I myself am unsure that would actually qualify as a criminal syndicate however. The Hutt Empire was not a criminal organisation, in any way, so no.

Which is why I said:

Originally posted by ares834
Depends what is considered "criminal underground" and what isn't. I doubt there is much that can stand against the Hutt Empire during its heyday.

When Zenwolf responded the Hutt Empire appears to match what he wanted.

Eh...tbh I don't see much info in the way for this Hutt Empire in what they did. As far as what I was looking for.

Plus when they were around, no other organization was there to challenge them. So I question as them being number 1 anyway.

Black Sun seems most fitting as number 1 given what is known and what they did, who they surpassed and so on.

I can only assume Wolf was confused and thought you meant the Hutt Cartel considering:
The Hutt Empire partook in none of these activities.

They were warlords, they had armies and conquered stuff, the whole idea is that they turned to crime after the collapse of their civilisation.

Information gathering lol

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Information gathering lol

What? Crime Organizations can get someone info...provided you have enough credits.

Also Beni I was sort of thinking that he was talking about the Hutt Cartel..

But anyway yeah, from what I see, the Hutt Empire was just a bunch of warlords and the like that didn't do anything of what stipulations I have panned out.

Well again I'd raise the Zann Consortium.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well again I'd raise the Zann Consortium.

Wait yeah, I goofed they are different things. Whoops!

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Hutt Empire partook in none of these activities.

They were warlords, they had armies and conquered stuff, the whole idea is that they turned to crime after the collapse of their civilisation.

No. They actually partook in pretty much all of those. lol

Sure they had armies but they used commerce as a weapon as well. I recall they enslaved an entire species by making them so in debt that they were forced to sell their race and planet to the Hutts.

It's kinda hard to be a criminal power IMO, when you are the dominant power in the Galaxy. Can't exactly be a criminal when you're the ones setting the rules.

Hell, you could probably put a lot of those things on the Galactic Empire tbh. They aren't a criminal organization though.

Sure you can.

The US gov't does illegal shit all the time.

Originally posted by ares834
I recall they enslaved an entire species by making them so in debt that they were forced to sell their race and planet to the Hutts. How is that illegal? Besides that was done by the Cartel, post-Empire.Originally posted by ares834
The US gov't does illegal shit all the time. So the US gov't is a criminal/underworld organisation?

Yet to see any evidence of them engaging in any "underworld" activities of any kind.

So yeah, those requirements have yet to be met.

I'm still thinking BS is #1 because the competition for the Hutt Empire wasn't that great as far as Underworld stuff went. In fact from the looks of it, there wasn't any other competition.

Whereas the Black Sun blew away all other crime syndicates and noted as the most powerful out of them all.

You're right, there wasn't much competition. Because they squashed it like they did to Zim. Regardless, it wasn't technically a criminal organization so I could see why some won't consider it.

In which case, I'd say the Zann Consortium seem to weild the most power.

I can see the Zann as 2 and Hutt as 3 respectively behind the Black Sun.

What about The Exchange or Czerka though?

I wonder where Czerka Corp is ranked. They seemed to be prominent during TOR era

Czerka isn't really a criminal organisation, sure some of their business practices were questionable but they were first and foremost a legal corporation and arms dealer.

The Swtor Smuggler was supposed to be the biggest single crime boss up til their time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Czerka isn't really a criminal organisation, sure some of their business practices were questionable but they were first and foremost a legal corporation and arms dealer.

I always felt it was, but then again....eh. I guess it wouldn't apply.

So this just leaves The Exchange as last then?

Shadow Collective should be on that list somewhere tbf

Zann Consortium reigns supreme imo. I can't think of a single other underground that wielded a fleet that wouldn't immediately retreat when an Executor-class Star Dreadnought + Supporting fleet showed up. That includes the Black Sun.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Zann Consortium reigns supreme imo. I can't think of a single other underground that wielded a fleet that wouldn't immediately retreat when an Executor-class Star Dreadnought + Supporting fleet showed up. That includes the Black Sun.

Thing is, Zann only was supreme after the fact BS and Hutts went under.

That and I'm kinda skeptical in approving of it, because for the most part it's appeared all of once...in FoC and like, nowhere else in lore.

It's mentioned in the Falcon novel but really just as a passing mention...so it seems to me it's not that big a thing.

Plus Zann got rid of the Star Dreadnought anyhow.

That and Tyber Zann was impressed with only billions of credits.



Xizor and the Black Sun literally has limitless credits and power to do whatever they wished.

I mean if you wanna include the Zann Consortium go ahead, but I don't think it would be number 1.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Thing is, Zann only was supreme after the fact BS and Hutts went under.

That and I'm kinda skeptical in approving of it, because for the most part it's appeared all of once...in FoC and like, nowhere else in lore.

It's mentioned in the Falcon novel but really just as a passing mention...so it seems to me it's not that big a thing.

Plus Zann got rid of the Star Dreadnought anyhow.

That and Tyber Zann was impressed with only billions of credits.



Xizor and the Black Sun literally has limitless credits and power to do whatever they wished.

I mean if you wanna include the Zann Consortium go ahead, but I don't think it would be number 1. Well Tyber also made Jabba his ***** so there is that

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Well Tyber also made Jabba his ***** so there is that

True but so did Xizor. :P

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Thing is, Zann only was supreme after the fact BS and Hutts went under.

Why is that relevant? We're talking about each Underworld power in their prime aren't we? Even before that Zann was clashing with Grand Admiral Thrawn. None of the other factions would ever risk an open space battle with the Empire.



I mean its still canon though. If you don't wanna take feats from FoC, then the Consortium has virtually no feats.



Mmmm...it was pretty big.


With his fleet...which is impressive.



And a million clone troopers were enough to bring the galaxy to heel. Come on bro, everyone knows in Star Wars numbers are just a placeholder for 'stupid big'.




They are certainly #1 if we include them bro. Tyber Zann and Urai made Jabba their *****, defeated Grand Admiral Thrawn in a Space Battle +maintained a powerful network capable of overthrowing planetary governments.

Zann didn't best Thrawn, Thrawn left after Bossk gave him a Sith artifact which he wanted.

Also it's not like the Black Sun couldn't do the same, considering it had resources and powers which were pretty much limitless even far before it's prime pre-TPM.

Plus Xizor made Jabba his **** too.

Both at the height seem neck and neck.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Zann didn't best Thrawn, Thrawn left after Bossk gave him a Sith artifact which he wanted.

Also it's not like the Black Sun couldn't do the same, considering it had resources and powers which were pretty much limitless even far before it's prime pre-TPM.

Plus Xizor made Jabba his **** too.

Both at the height seem neck and neck.

Not...really. I don't think you understand what a big deal it is to down an Executor.

A single Mandator-class Star Dreadnought could take on 1,000 capital ships during TCWs. An Executor could likely easily take on 2-3,000 perhaps even 4. The number of vessels/ power of vessels required is ludicrous. Assaulting any core world is quite the endeavor, let alone Kuat Drive Yards, which had one of the largest defense fleets.

Sorry but that trumps hyperbolic statements about the Black Sun, who at best were nuisances to galactic governments like the Empire.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not...really. I don't think you understand what a big deal it is to down an Executor.

A single Mandator-class Star Dreadnought could take on 1,000 capital ships during TCWs. An Executor could likely easily take on 2-3,000 perhaps even 4. The number of vessels/ power of vessels required is ludicrous. Assaulting any core world is quite the endeavor, let alone Kuat Drive Yards, which had one of the largest defense fleets.

Sorry but that trumps hyperbolic statements about the Black Sun, who at best were nuisances to galactic governments like the Empire.

I didn't see any large defense fleet either fighting off Zann.

Plus you're forgetting that the Rebel Alliance was involved too.

Now he did take out a Star Dreadnought sure, but this being after he had stole the Eclipse + his own reinforcements helping to take it out.

It's a fair point, the military arm of the Black Sun doesn't come close to the Zann Consortium.

In no specific order:

- Hutt Cartel
- Black Sun
- Exchange Syndicate
- Zann Consortium

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In no specific order:

- Hutt Cartel
- Black Sun
- Exchange Syndicate
- Zann Consortium

The Black Sun already surpassed the Hutt Cartel.


Also Beni I can agree to that but military prowess isn't exactly what I'm looking at. I'm looking for what a Criminal Underworld does...which they involve themselves in illegal activities and so forth.

Any faction can have a military if big enough, that doesn't make it an Underworld faction.

A couple were big, but also comparative flashes in the pan. Shadow Collective was big but temporary, ditto Zann Consortium. The Black Sun and Hutts and even the Exchange were lasting powers.

When talking a criminal enterprise, what matters more? Lasting criminal power, or a single big grab that crumbles away to nothing?

The Hutts are a combination of criminal enterprise and one of the few areas that could be considered separate, largely out of Republic/Empire control (though I think nominally acknowledging whoever's in charge).


The Hutts seemed to have better and more total control of their territory, and have some military, but the Black Sun had a much wider reach and seemed to have enterprises throughout the galaxy, if a lot less direct force. Both did work with each other a lot.


I'm guessing Zann hit it really big with his fleet, but it drew too much attention and was likely smushed. Similar the Shadow bunch. The Exchange almost seems like a precursor to Black Sun- their time overlapped some, but I'm guessing it's just the Exchange went into decline and Black Sun took it's place.


Overall, I'd say-
1. Black Sun. Their wide reach probably means they have the largest income and influence of any.
2. Hutt Syndicate. While not as wide, they still have some fingers out there, plus a good portion of the galaxy where they control the crime more thoroughly than any other syndicate, which gives them a reliable base.
3. The Exchange. A once-rival of the Hutts and the big non-Hutt group before Black Sun, they were eventually replaced but were quite significant.
4. Shadow Collective. They didn't last long at all, but they were impressive when they did.
5. Zann Consortium. Ditto.


Then at 6, I'll add one, the Crucible. A slave-trading and pit-fighting organization originally created by the Sith to be self-perpetuating and turn refugees into soldiers for the sith, they remained fairly hidden and weren't as wide-ranging, but they were secretive, dangerous, and conducted a criminal enterprise for a very long time.