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Battle takes place on neutral ground

Who wins?

Either way.

Meetra.

Wrath.

Very interesting matchup, I'm thinking Wrath takes this from his history of taking serious punishment and being able to get up-close and personal real fast, while Surik is very well rounded in saber combat, I feel that Wrath has her outclassed just in the slightest.

Surik took down a far more durable opponent repeatedly whilst having her Force powers and willpower all but made non-existent.

The Exile has precognition of the highest tier and combat speed that the Wrath can't match. Taking down two elite Imperial Guards (in direct vicinity to the Emperor) in two or three seconds is extremely impressive. The Hero of Tython hasn't dispatched regular Imperial Guards with such ease and speed, nevermind hand-picked Guardsmen. Obviously whilst diminished by Dromund Kaas which makes this yet further impressive.

The Exile's power is evident in that immediately following her death she was capable of feeding Force energy to Revan sufficient enough that he could hold off the combined telepathic powers of the Emperor and the Dread Masters for three centuries, something which is stated he would have been unable to do without her power as a source.

Do not underestimate the Exile's powers and abilities just because of one severely skewed engagement.

I'm giving this one to the Exile.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Exile's power is evident in that immediately following her death she was capable of feeding Force energy to Revan sufficient enough that he could hold off the combined telepathic powers of the Emperor and the Dread Masters for three centuries, something which is stated he would have been unable to do without her power as a source.

---
The Wrath wins this.

"As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war.

Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay."

-Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Say again?

Revan fed off Meetra to counter Vitiate's Force Drain, thus allowing him to function close to full power in the mental war.

She never contributed directly to the mental war itself - she merely made it an even (or close to even) playing field by countering drain.

I see the point evaded you, Meetra Surik's spirit was strong enough to maintain Revan's powers, in a counter to that of the combined attempts of the Emperor and the DMs over three centuries.

Nit-pick however you please, this is extremely impressive regardless and is certainly a greater indication of power than we've seen from the Empire's Wrath so far.

It's a massive difference though, lol. Also, nothing says the Dread Masters contributed to the draining of Revan.
Revan only told us that they were apart of the mental war. I can't picture Vitiate sharing his best meal with other Sith Lords, lol.

Whichever way you like to put it, it's extremely impressive and highly indicative of her strength in the Force regardless.

Perhaps her Force-reserves, but even then I'm not sure how that sort of feat translates to the physical body.

That being said, the feat isn't combat applicable regardless, lol.

Because most if not almost all other Jedi spirits have shown nowhere near that strength and presence. Combat applications were not exactly my point regarding that feat, merely that Surik is alot more powerful than people give her credit for. Her SWTOR: Revan incarnation was canonically stronger than Darth Traya.

The Wrath blitzes the shit out of Meetra.

What speed feats does the Wrath have that even come close to blitzing someone who can blitz amped elite Imp Guards and react in half a second, not to mention has the highest tier Precognition.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik took down a far more durable opponent repeatedly whilst having her Force powers and willpower all but made non-existent.

A massive exaggeration. Sion is well below the Wrath, he could easily replicate that fight. He did repeatedly defeat Nomen Karr

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Exile has precognition of the highest tier and combat speed that the Wrath can't match. Taking down two elite Imperial Guards (in direct vicinity to the Emperor) in two or three seconds is extremely impressive. The Hero of Tython hasn't dispatched regular Imperial Guards with such ease and speed, nevermind hand-picked Guardsmen. Obviously whilst diminished by Dromund Kaas which makes this yet further impressive.

The Hero of Tython defeated the Emperor.

And that's not all that impressive. The Wrath has blitzed Jedi and shown himself to be very quick indeed.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Exile's power is evident in that immediately following her death she was capable of feeding Force energy to Revan sufficient enough that he could hold off the combined telepathic powers of the Emperor and the Dread Masters for three centuries, something which is stated he would have been unable to do without her power as a source.

Eh.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Do not underestimate the Exile's powers and abilities just because of one severely skewed engagement.

Don't underestimate the Wrath either. His defeat of Sel Makor is just as impressive as defeating Traya.

I rank the Exile higher than most, but nowhere it is stated or implied her willpower was made next to non-existent during her run in the Trayus Academy. Her willpower was sufficient to keep on going all the way up to Traya, and actually fight and kill Traya, an act which the latter expected would break the Exile. Surik's willpower was very intact in that instance - the nexus did hinder her abilities significantly, though.

@Neph - Nomen Karr hasn't done anything to put himself on the same level as Sion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A massive exaggeration. Sion is well below the Wrath, he could easily replicate that fight. He did repeatedly defeat Nomen Karr

Sion is a jedi killer of four decades experience, he killed Lonna Vash, a powerful Jedi High Council member and was one of Exar Kun's converts, all of shom are Force prodigies and the best of their generation, he is an acclaimed Sith Warrior at that. Nomen Karr has one feat and that is getting killed by Act 1 Wrath.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Hero of Tython defeated an extremely weakened Voice of the Emperor.

Corrected.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And that's not all that impressive. The Wrath has blitzed Jedi and shown himself to be very quick indeed.

The most elite handful of Imperial Guardsmen in the Empire empowered by the Sith Emperor is far above no-name featless Jedi.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't underestimate the Wrath either. His defeat of Sel Makor is just as impressive as defeating Traya.

Defeating Sel Makor is definitely not as impressive as defeating a legion of the most elite Sith in the galaxy, followed by Darth Sion and then Darth Traya single-handedly whilst feeling like this:



Not to mention being mentally haunted by the screams and ghosts of MalachorV whilst fighting on-top of a geyser of Dark Side energy.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Neph - Nomen Karr hasn't done anything to put himself on the same level as Sion.

I didn't suggest he was. I was merely offering a similar feat that also suggests high endurance.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sion is a jedi killer of four decades experience, he killed Lonna Vash, a powerful Jedi High Council member and was one of Exar Kun's converts, all of shom are Force prodigies and the best of their generation, he is an acclaimed Sith Warrior at that. Nomen Karr has one feat and that is getting killed by Act 1 Wrath.

Nomen Karr was an example, he defeated him well before his prime. Sion is a relative weakling who the Wrath would obliterate in a fight over and over and over again. We can make a thread if you want, I know he could do it. Killing Vash (a complete random) with the help of his sith assassins, on Korriban, isn't exactly blowing my socks off. At least Nomen Karr captured Ekkage, someone actually powerful. He's also a powerful, highly experienced Jedi Master who was drawing power from the darkside, which we know can give a huge boost of power.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Corrected.

Still >>>>> killing 2 Imperial Guardsmen. The Hero also had to fight through legions of Imperial Guard and at least one Guard Captain to get to Vitiate. Even Nyriss feared the full power of the Imperial Guard. The Hero plowed right through them like they weren't even there.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The most elite handful of Imperial Guardsmen in the Empire empowered by the Sith Emperor is far above no-name featless Jedi.

In speed? No. Vitiate empowers them to resist the Force, not to move quicker. They have no force speed capabilities or enhanced reflexes. They are peak humans.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Defeating Sel Makor is definitely not as impressive as defeating a legion of the most elite Sith in the galaxy, followed by Darth Sion and then Darth Traya single-handedly whilst feeling like this:

Yes, it is. Sel Makor is way more powerful than those people. Those "most elite Sith" are mere shadows compared to the real Sith. Plus Meetra has a massive advantage of being able to drain power from her fallen opponents, so it's only logical that she'd be able to do all that while being constantly replenished.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not to mention being mentally haunted by the screams and ghosts of MalachorV whilst fighting on-top of a geyser of Dark Side energy.

Pfft, the Wrath can resist the Dread Master's. Not to mention that Sel Makor's land is so unbelievably corrupt that even Sith go hopelessly insane there. That's a little bit above Malachor. Sure, the Wrath protected themselves from that, but Sel Makor's direct power would utterly eclipse anything Meetra faced.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I rank the Exile higher than most, but nowhere it is stated or implied her willpower was made next to non-existent during her run in the Trayus Academy. Her willpower was sufficient to keep on going all the way up to Traya, and actually fight and kill Traya, an act which the latter expected would break the Exile. Surik's willpower was very intact in that instance - the nexus did hinder her abilities significantly, though.

@Neph - Nomen Karr hasn't done anything to put himself on the same level as Sion.

Well it depends on the definition, her mental state was under massive strain though obviously her willpower wasn't shattered.

Her will was put under great pressure, but obviously she was able to hold strong despite that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't suggest he was. I was merely offering a similar feat that also suggests high endurance.

Not nearly as much as the Exile displayed in her solo assault on Malachor V, where she was diminished and not aided by Force Rage.

Originally posted by Nephthys Nomen Karr was an example, he defeated him well before his prime. Sion is a relative weakling who the Wrath would obliterate in a fight over and over and over again. We can make a thread if you want, I know he could do it. Killing Vash (a complete random) with the help of his sith assassins, on Korriban, isn't exactly blowing my socks off. At least Nomen Karr captured Ekkage, someone actually powerful. He's also a powerful, highly experienced Jedi Master who was drawing power from the darkside, which we know can give a huge boost of power.

Sion is nothing like a weakling, your arguments are baseless and biased, he is a very powerful Sith Warrior. Vash is not some random, she is very powerful, as are her fellow Jedi High Council members, she is stated to be a greater duelist than Kavar, a famed Jedi warrior and Juyo master.

Originally posted by Nephthys Still >>>>> killing 2 Imperial Guardsmen. The Hero also had to fight through legions of Imperial Guard and at least one Guard Captain to get to Vitiate. Even Nyriss feared the full power of the Imperial Guard. The Hero plowed right through them like they weren't even there.

Let us compare the Hero of Tython's fights against the Imperial Guardsmen and the Exile's:

Hero of Tython has fought and defeated dozens of Guards in a series of genuine battles.

Jedi Exile Meetra Surik speedblitzed two of the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the galaxy despite their empowerment by Vitiate.


Originally posted by Nephthys In speed? No. Vitiate empowers them to resist the Force, not to move quicker. They have no force speed capabilities or enhanced reflexes. They are peak humans.

Imperial Guards have the reflexes and martial prowess of powerful Jedi and Sith. Their most elite would be even better.

Originally posted by Nephthys Yes, it is. Sel Makor is way more powerful than those people. Those "most elite Sith" are mere shadows compared to the real Sith. Plus Meetra has a massive advantage of being able to drain power from her fallen opponents, so it's only logical that she'd be able to do all that while being constantly replenished.

Sel Makor certainly isn't, he has a shit ton of hype but his feats don't fit it, I wouldn't even put him on Nihilus tier. She can grow stronger over a prolonged amount of time, not instantly grow in strength.

Originally posted by Nephthys Pfft, the Wrath can resist the Dread Master's. Not to mention that Sel Makor's land is so unbelievably corrupt that even Sith go hopelessly insane there. That's a little bit above Malachor. Sure, the Wrath protected themselves from that, but Sel Makor's direct power would utterly eclipse anything Meetra faced.

A whole bunch of people including non-Force Users can as well. Malachor instantly corrupts or kills Jedi, so no. Sel Makor's power wasn't direct though.

The Exile takes this.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Her SWTOR: Revan incarnation was canonically stronger than Darth Traya.

What quote are you referring to that states that?

Both Sion and Traya herself both state she will become more powerful than Traya after Malachor V, logically her only following incarnation is in the novel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not nearly as much as the Exile displayed in her solo assault on Malachor V, where she was diminished and not aided by Force Rage.

The Exile's power is replenished by every foe she kills. And the Wrath pretty clearly wasn't aided by Force Rage in that fight, he spends the whole thing calmly goading Karr until he draws on Force Rage.

The Wrath is said to have "unrivaled stamina" though.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sion is nothing like a weakling, your arguments are baseless and biased, he is a very powerful Sith Warrior. Vash is not some random, she is very powerful, as are her fellow Jedi High Council members, she is stated to be a greater duelist than Kavar, a famed Jedi warrior and Juyo master.

I said relative weakling. Any Jedi Master or Sith Lord is "powerful", but in the halls of the greats Sion is like Vos level or something. Maybe that Lucien Draay guy. His best thing is his ability to regenerate, we don't really have anything on his skills or power to rate him that highly. Personally I think the Wrath beating the Orders top lightsaber instructor and his best student ever at once is better than beating Sion and the Wrath did that on Tatooine.

Quote for Vash being better than Kavar? At any rate, Vash specifically says that it was Sion's "cunning" that let him capture her. I wonder if there was even a fight.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Let us compare the Hero of Tython's fights against the Imperial Guardsmen and the Exile's:

Hero of Tython has fought and defeated dozens of Guards in a series of genuine battles.

Jedi Exile Meetra Surik speedblitzed two of the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the galaxy despite their empowerment by Vitiate.

We don't know that it was a series of genuine battles, they happen in gameplay. The Hero can easily blitz Sith Lords and shit in cutscenes, but they have "genuine" battles in gameplay. Also, the Dark Temple is an incredibly potent nexus beyond whatever the Exile was soooooo diminished by, they were also close to and thus empowered by Vitiate and unlike Meetra, the Hero didn't just fight 3 or 4 of them, she attacked them head on which even Nyriss thought was insane. The Hero also defeated Prime Scourge (before her prime) after fighting through the Emperor's Fortress, which is full of "Elite Imperial Guards", super-advanced battle droids and Sith. Even Leeha probably did better against the Imperial Guard than Meetra tbh considering she fought the lions share of the fortress.

Also, Meetra explicitly didn't speedblitz the Imperial Guard:

"At the same time, Meetra threw herself at the two guards standing in front of the doors to the throne room, her lightsaber materializing in her hand.

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled. The first soldier met her charge and parried the first strike with his electrostaff, the resilient metal of his weapon deflecting the energy blade of the Jedi off to the side so that it carved a deep scar in the wall.

The second soldier leapt into the fray, forcing Meetra to fall back a step to absorb their coordinated attack."

Originally posted by AncientPower
Imperial Guards have the reflexes and martial prowess of powerful Jedi and Sith. Their most elite would be even better.

Well as we saw, Meetra didn't blitz them. And the only thing that actually indicates the IG's have those reflexes, is that fight, where they show they can react to Meetra and Scourge and Revan to some extent.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sel Makor certainly isn't, he has a shit ton of hype but his feats don't fit it, I wouldn't even put him on Nihilus tier. She can grow stronger over a prolonged amount of time, not instantly grow in strength.

Oh no, not EVEN Nihilus tier! What a damn noob! Sel Makor was powerful enough to create beings out of thin air, he created a monster able to psychically dominate the Gormak race, his avatar was so powerful that no Voss Mystic had ever survived against it and Mystics regularly fight cyborg rancors and shit, his Nightmare Lands were so utterly corrupt Sith Lords were driven insane in it, he had enough power to drive every being on the planet irreparably insane and he was able to contain Vitiate himself in his Dark Heart. He is pretty legit godlike.

And not really, she drains her opponents as they die. We see this in action in the dark side playthrough but it happens even in the light side one.

Originally posted by AncientPower
A whole bunch of people including non-Force Users can as well. Malachor instantly corrupts or kills Jedi, so no. Sel Makor's power wasn't direct though.

Only Nox and the Wrath have to option to resist the Master's. And it's more impressive to corrupt Sith than Jedi, since they're dark side already.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile's power is replenished by every foe she kills. And the Wrath pretty clearly wasn't aided by Force Rage in that fight, he spends the whole thing calmly goading Karr until he draws on Force Rage.

The Wrath is said to have "unrivaled stamina" though.

She grows in strength over months, not instantly, the only comparison you can make is DS Exile draining off the Jedi Masters as she kills them. The Wrath constantly uses rage in combat, just because we don't see BW FX doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

The Wrath is also said to be a rage machine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I said relative weakling. Any Jedi Master or Sith Lord is "powerful", but in the halls of the greats Sion is like Vos level or something. Maybe that Lucien Draay guy. His best thing is his ability to regenerate, we don't really have anything on his skills or power to rate him that highly. Personally I think the Wrath beating the Orders top lightsaber instructor and his best student ever at once is better than beating Sion and the Wrath did that on Tatooine.

Quote for Vash being better than Kavar? At any rate, Vash specifically says that it was Sion's "cunning" that let him capture her. I wonder if there was even a fight.

He uses dark rage constantly to hold off physical death, an ability he mastered over the hundreds of Jedi he would have killed for four decades.

Darth Sion as one of Kun's converts was a Force prodigy and a next generation lightsaber prodigy, he evidently survived killing his own master and any Jedi that may have interfered, as an apprentice. This also means Sion wasn't just corrupted but was empowered by a Sith spirit. Sion then fought and survived the Exar Kun war and kept fighting Jedi right until his death.

The KOTOR II guide states that Master Kavar is not as good as the other Jedi Masters the Exile encountered, including Lonna Vash. Kavar's great reknown as a Jedi Guardian and his being considered the greatest Jedi by the Mandalorians is impressive. More impressive is as his mastery of Form VII: Juyo, mastery of numerous others by extension and evident mastery of Jar'kai. Vrook Lamar, Atris, Lonna Vash & Zez-Kai Ell are all stated to be better duelists than Kavar is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We don't know that it was a series of genuine battles, they happen in gameplay. The Hero can easily blitz Sith Lords and shit in cutscenes, but they have "genuine" battles in gameplay. Also, the Dark Temple is an incredibly potent nexus beyond whatever the Exile was soooooo diminished by, they were also close to and thus empowered by Vitiate and unlike Meetra, the Hero didn't just fight 3 or 4 of them, she attacked them head on which even Nyriss thought was insane. The Hero also defeated Prime Scourge (before her prime) after fighting through the Emperor's Fortress, which is full of "Elite Imperial Guards", super-advanced battle droids and Sith. Even Leeha probably did better against the Imperial Guard than Meetra tbh considering she fought the lions share of the fortress.

Also, Meetra explicitly didn't speedblitz the Imperial Guard:

"At the same time, Meetra threw herself at the two guards standing in front of the doors to the throne room, her lightsaber materializing in her hand.

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled. The first soldier met her charge and parried the first strike with his electrostaff, the resilient metal of his weapon deflecting the energy blade of the Jedi off to the side so that it carved a deep scar in the wall.

The second soldier leapt into the fray, forcing Meetra to fall back a step to absorb their coordinated attack."

Exactly, we don't know if the HoT fought them in protracted battles or quick ones, just because the HoT has blitzed featless Sith/Jedi is in no manner an indication he can do the same to Imperiak Guardsmen.

As the novel states the entire battle lasted only a few seconds, so either Meetra blitzed in a second or they are all top tier speed combatants.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well as we saw, Meetra didn't blitz them. And the only thing that actually indicates the IG's have those reflexes, is that fight, where they show they can react to Meetra and Scourge and Revan to some extent.

They apparently fought an entire duel in less than a few seconds, considering that afterwards Surik runs and saber throws Vitiate before the battle 'ends'.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh no, not EVEN Nihilus tier! What a damn noob! Sel Makor was powerful enough to create beings out of thin air, he created a monster able to psychically dominate the Gormak race, his avatar was so powerful that no Voss Mystic had ever survived against it and Mystics regularly fight cyborg rancors and shit, his Nightmare Lands were so utterly corrupt Sith Lords were driven insane in it, he had enough power to drive every being on the planet irreparably insane and he was able to contain Vitiate himself in his Dark Heart. He is pretty legit godlike.

Except you've missed the numerous issues inherent there, Sel Makor is an entity that exists in his own realm and spent what could be hundreds or thousands of years turning it into a glorified booby trap. His feats are impressive but really they are hardly unprecedented, they show high tier sorcery. I am not saying Sel Makor is weak but you are wanking him so much I doubt he is fertile, he trapped Vitiate because of his vost, something Baras played him into doing.

Sel Makor whilst dominating a resisting Vitiate was also fighting the Wrath, he was not able to focus on the Wrath at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only Nox and the Wrath have to option to resist the Master's. And it's more impressive to corrupt Sith than Jedi, since they're dark side already.

The Masters have had their telepathic assaults thwarted by featless Sith/Jedi/non-Force Users on Korriban. They like Vitiate do not have irresistible TP.

Killing > insanity.

Originally posted by AncientPower
What speed feats does the Wrath have that even come close to blitzing someone who can blitz amped elite Imp Guards and react in half a second, not to mention has the highest tier Precognition.
You say that as if half of ToR's cast hasn't blitzed "amped Imperial guards," Sith, and Jedi alike.

That being said, I don't actually think the Wrath will blitz her. She will just die horribly, as this contest is well in the Wrath's favor.

Originally posted by AncientPower




just because the HoT has blitzed featless Sith/Jedi is in no manner an indication he can do the same to Imperiak Guardsmen.



? confused

Now how is that?

Originally posted by Selenial


Who do you think would win this Selenial? Opinions seem split so far.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You say that as if half of ToR's cast hasn't blitzed "amped Imperial guards," Sith, and Jedi alike.

That being said, I don't actually think the Wrath will blitz her. She will just die horribly, as this contest is well in the Wrath's favor.

When have they blitzed Imperial Guardsmen? Or better yet the most elite handful of their entire number? Take note that only Jedi Council/Dark Council members have ever showed an ability to even fight them nevermind defeat them. The likes of Exal Kressh, the Emperor's own apprentice didn't even entertain the idea.

Yet Surik has a perfectly good chance as I've displayed throughout the thread.

Originally posted by AncientPower
When have they blitzed Imperial Guardsmen? Or better yet the most elite handful of their entire number? Take note that only Jedi Council/Dark Council members have ever showed an ability to even fight them nevermind defeat them. The likes of Exal Kressh, the Emperor's own apprentice didn't even entertain the idea.

Yet Surik has a perfectly good chance as I've displayed throughout the thread.

When did any of this happen?....Because throughout the stories in TOR, characters do meet up and fight Imperial Guardsmen both named and non and defeat em.

So I'm not seeing where just JC and DC members are able to.

I would also like to know how any TOR protagonist isn't above Dark Council or Jedi Council level.

What i am asking for is speed feats that match the seconds long assassination attempt on Vitiate, an entire battle fought that quickly is an insane feat for all involved.

Ancient I'm not sure what you're getting at. Revan was confronting and fighting against the Emperor while Scourge and Surik were still fighting the Guardsmen.

The Exile's engagement with the guard was anything but seconds, lol.

The fight began far before Revan's fight with Vitiate, and ended iirc after it.

The novel says that the battle was in reality only a few seconds long.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You say that as if half of ToR's cast hasn't blitzed "amped Imperial guards," Sith, and Jedi alike.

That being said, I don't actually think the Wrath will blitz her. She will just die horribly, as this contest is well in the Wrath's favor.

??....The only thing that happened in seconds was Vitiate disintegrating T3 and Revan being blasted with Force Lighting.

??....The only thing that happened in seconds was Vitiate disintegrating T3 and Revan being blasted with Force Lighting.



Before that, Scourge and Suirk were still fighting the Guard while Revan charged.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The novel says that the battle was in reality only a few seconds long.
Yeah, the fight with Revan.

The Exile's battle with the Guard started even before Revan killed the Guard, and she didn't finish them until they retreated into the Throne Room and fought there while Revan fought the Emperor.

We don't really have a gauge on how long it was, but certainly not a few seconds lol. It took her forever to kill one of the Guards.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
??....The only thing that happened in seconds was Vitiate disintegrating T3 and Revan being blasted with Force Lighting.
Not necessarily. You can say the entire Revan vs Vitiate fight happened in that span, but that doesn't support AP either anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah, the fight with Revan.

The Exile's battle with the Guard started even before Revan killed the Guard, and she didn't finish them until they retreated into the Throne Room and fought there while Revan fought the Emperor.

We don't really have a gauge on how long it was, but certainly not a few seconds lol. It took her forever to kill one of the Guards.


Not necessarily. You can say the entire Revan vs Vitiate fight happened in that span, but that doesn't support AP either anyway.

Well /shrug regardless I doubt the fight against the Guard were seconds, that just seems wonky considering that they were posing a challenge to Scourge and Surik.

Also it seems that there's an issue with editing posts..

There is no way it took minutes longer, as soon as they broke in Revan charged the Emperor and started the fight which lasted seconds. A few seconds longer perhaps than the Revan vs Emperor exchange but that hardly changes things.

Agreed with Zenwolf, and being more than "a few seconds" doesn't register to "several minutes", AP.

Of course not but it is an incredibly impressive feat for Scourge and Meetra to take down the most elite of the elite Imperial Guards and their captain in such a short amount of time, likely less than even 15 seconds when you put the whole pace of the fight in context.

The battles; Revan versus Vitiate; Meetra Surik versus Imperial Guard; and Lord Scourge versus Imperial Guard, realistically ended in a span of some seconds.

Originally posted by AncientPower
She grows in strength over months, not instantly, the only comparison you can make is DS Exile draining off the Jedi Masters as she kills them. The Wrath constantly uses rage in combat, just because we don't see BW FX doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

The Wrath is also said to be a rage machine.

I'm not talking about her growing in strength, I'm talking about her stamina and how much energy she gets back after every kill. How much effort do you think it took her to kill each Sith on Malachor? More than she drained from them afterwards? It's a factor that helped her to keep fighting with her replenished force reserves. Also no, she instantly grows in strength after each kill. She isn't slowly siphoning power from them, she drains them at the moment of death.

Every Sith uses anger, that doesn't mean anything. The Wrath wasn't using a berserk rage like Luke or Savage were.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He uses dark rage constantly to hold off physical death, an ability he mastered over the hundreds of Jedi he would have killed for four decades.

Darth Sion as one of Kun's converts was a Force prodigy and a next generation lightsaber prodigy, he evidently survived killing his own master and any Jedi that may have interfered, as an apprentice. This also means Sion wasn't just corrupted but was empowered by a Sith spirit. Sion then fought and survived the Exar Kun war and kept fighting Jedi right until his death.

The KOTOR II guide states that Master Kavar is not as good as the other Jedi Masters the Exile encountered, including Lonna Vash. Kavar's great reknown as a Jedi Guardian and his being considered the greatest Jedi by the Mandalorians is impressive. More impressive is as his mastery of Form VII: Juyo, mastery of numerous others by extension and evident mastery of Jar'kai. Vrook Lamar, Atris, Lonna Vash & Zez-Kai Ell are all stated to be better duelists than Kavar is.

You're making that number up, we have no clue how many Jedi he killed. I know about his ability, it just suggests he relied heavily on that instead of his skills.

I want quotes saying that all of Kun's converts were Force and Lightsaber prodigies. I doubt that's accurate considering Jolee's wife was one as well. Also we have no idea that Sion was actually one of those Jedi, his backstory seems completely at odds with that. Even if all that is true though, I don't care. It still doesn't make him that good. I already said that he was good and powerful. But in the grand scheme of things, he's just average. Hell, he loses to freaking Atton in the restored content.

I asked for the quote. I'm not sure if you mean the Kotor campaign guide, but I can't find anything in there and I'm not familiar with any Kotor II guide. In any event, assuming you're describing it accurately it doesn't matter since the Exile didn't encounter Vash. She was dead by the time the Exile reached Korriban.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exactly, we don't know if the HoT fought them in protracted battles or quick ones, just because the HoT has blitzed featless Sith/Jedi is in no manner an indication he can do the same to Imperiak Guardsmen.

As the novel states the entire battle lasted only a few seconds, so either Meetra blitzed in a second or they are all top tier speed combatants.

Sith have force speed, imperial guards don't. The Hero's blitz is much more impressive since the Sith couldn't react to her attacks and she cut them down with a single slash each. By contrast, the Imperial Guard's Meetra fought were able to react and block her attacks. She actually had to out-duel them and clearly fought a protracted battle with them since they forced her to retreat.

As shown by other's, that's wrong. You don't blitz someone if they text specifically says you didn't blitz them.

Originally posted by AncientPower
They apparently fought an entire duel in less than a few seconds, considering that afterwards Surik runs and saber throws Vitiate before the battle 'ends'.

Nah. Since she didn't blitz them, it doesn't matter. Most Jedi are fast enough to have fights in the span of seconds too btw.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except you've missed the numerous issues inherent there, Sel Makor is an entity that exists in his own realm and spent what could be hundreds or thousands of years turning it into a glorified booby trap. His feats are impressive but really they are hardly unprecedented, they show high tier sorcery. I am not saying Sel Makor is weak but you are wanking him so much I doubt he is fertile, he trapped Vitiate because of his vost, something Baras played him into doing.

Sel Makor whilst dominating a resisting Vitiate was also fighting the Wrath, he was not able to focus on the Wrath at all.

There's nothing that says that Sel Makor specifically worked to make the Nightmare Lands that corrupt. His mere presence could have been enough. I never said that Sel Makor was unprecedented, but he is certainly more powerful than Traya.

That's supposition, Vitiate lowered his defenses. While he may have hampered Sel Makor somewhat, there's nothing suggesting that he couldn't focus on the Wrath. The first thing he does is channel his power and create a dozen Gormak out of thin air for you to fight, he was clearly still immensely powerful and in control. I doubt Vitiate hindered him any more than Kreia's lacking a hand hindered her ability to duel the Exile.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Masters have had their telepathic assaults thwarted by featless Sith/Jedi/non-Force Users on Korriban. They like Vitiate do not have irresistible TP.

Killing > insanity.

Non-force sensitives can walk on Malachor too (Hanharr). The Dread Master's influence is miles greater than that planets and resisting them is a far greater feat of will than just walking on Malachor.

I don't believe Malachor actually killed anyone. The Nightmare Lands are corrupt enough that no-one barring the Hero of Tython can walk into it without performing the rituals protecting their minds. Even Sith are drowned in the darkside. That's more impressive than Malachor where a wookiee can just stroll around on it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not talking about her growing in strength, I'm talking about her stamina and how much energy she gets back after every kill. How much effort do you think it took her to kill each Sith on Malachor? More than she drained from them afterwards? It's a factor that helped her to keep fighting with her replenished force reserves. Also no, she instantly grows in strength after each kill. She isn't slowly siphoning power from them, she drains them at the moment of death.

She does not get revitalized by this in any manner, will the low-balling of this character ever subside here? She gains ever so slightly more power with each death which culminates over months in the return of her power.

Originally posted by Nephthys Every Sith uses anger, that doesn't mean anything. The Wrath wasn't using a berserk rage like Luke or Savage were.

Except that the Wrath constantly uses rage in combat, this is all a moot point though, I see no reason to believe that Nomen Karr is any greater than the self-exiled Jedi High Council members of the Dark Wars.

Originally posted by Nephthys You're making that number up, we have no clue how many Jedi he killed. I know about his ability, it just suggests he relied heavily on that instead of his skills.

He fought Jedi in the Great Sith War, Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War and Dafk Wars, as well as all the years inbetween. He hunted Jedi and killed them for forty years, hardly an exaggeration.

Originally posted by Nephthys I want quotes saying that all of Kun's converts were Force and Lightsaber prodigies. I doubt that's accurate considering Jolee's wife was one as well. Also we have no idea that Sion was actually one of those Jedi, his backstory seems completely at odds with that. Even if all that is true though, I don't care. It still doesn't make him that good. I already said that he was good and powerful. But in the grand scheme of things, he's just average. Hell, he loses to freaking Atton in the restored content.

What? It is well stated that Kun targeted the Jedi Knights with the strongest potential to convert into his students. His KOTOR CG Profile states he was one of Exar Kun's sith warriors during the war, the only genuine Force Users Kun had in his force were those twenty he converted, that was the entire point.

Atton was an elite Sith Assassin in Revan's deadliest unit, he was a master of breaking Jedi and was expert in Echani training, furthermore he was taught combat techniques to the rank of a Jedi Sentinel by Meetra Surik whom had already achieved mastery of combat equal to Traya.

Though thanks for opening the floodgates for Cut Content, bad move Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys I asked for the quote. I'm not sure if you mean the Kotor campaign guide, but I can't find anything in there and I'm not familiar with any Kotor II guide. In any event, assuming you're describing it accurately it doesn't matter since the Exile didn't encounter Vash. She was dead by the time the Exile reached Korriban.

Kavar isn't as much of a lightsaber virtuoso as the other Jedi masters you've met, but he makes up for this with his extremely potent Force powers.
- Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Both the Exile and Visas Marr sensed Lonna's presence and fall as they landed and then discovered her corpse, your loophole is humorous but hardly valid.

Furthermore cut content does have Meetra meet Lonna Vash.

Originally posted by Nephthys Sith have force speed, imperial guards don't. The Hero's blitz is much more impressive since the Sith couldn't react to her attacks and she cut them down with a single slash each. By contrast, the Imperial Guard's Meetra fought were able to react and block her attacks. She actually had to out-duel them and clearly fought a protracted battle with them since they forced her to retreat.

Imperial Guardsmen as standard are handpicked from the most elite soldier in the Empire and are trained ruthlessly to the point that they are the physical and martial equals of any Sith or Jedi. Their most elite are even better than this, they are better than most Force Users and make Dark Council members quake, most DC members don't even try to fight back. There is no reason to think featless Sith can match an elite Guardsmen in combat.

Yet that fight was only seconds longer than the Vitiate vs Revan fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys Nah. Since she didn't blitz them, it doesn't matter. Most Jedi are fast enough to have fights in the span of seconds too btw.

Her beating them over a span of seconds and not in 30 seconds to a minute is an incredible speed feat. Oh and no Jedi beating such high tier combatants in such a quick manner is not a norm, stop low-balling.

Furthermore when the Wrath encounters Imperial Guardsmen on Yavin IV, he too has a protracted fight. Infact the leaders of both factions make it clear that defeating the Guard would be extremely difficult despite their own numbers.

Originally posted by Nephthys There's nothing that says that Sel Makor specifically worked to make the Nightmare Lands that corrupt. His mere presence could have been enough. I never said that Sel Makor was unprecedented, but he is certainly more powerful than Traya.

Sel Makor in the Nightmare Lands certainly is, but said lands have been vital to his success.

Originally posted by Nephthys That's supposition, Vitiate lowered his defenses. While he may have hampered Sel Makor somewhat, there's nothing suggesting that he couldn't focus on the Wrath. The first thing he does is channel his power and create a dozen Gormak out of thin air for you to fight, he was clearly still immensely powerful and in control. I doubt Vitiate hindered him any more than Kreia's lacking a hand hindered her ability to duel the Exile.

Lowering his defenses does not mean he was not helping the Wrath, he allowed Sel Makor to enter his host body, but there is certainly room for a mental war.

Originally posted by Nephthys Non-force sensitives can walk on Malachor too (Hanharr). The Dread Master's influence is miles greater than that planets and resisting them is a far greater feat of will than just walking on Malachor.

Hanharr was connected to Darth Traya, Jedi Knights either turned to the Dark Side or were killed by the planet. The Dread Master's influence has been thwarted before, it is not infallible as you present it to be.

Originally posted by Nephthys I don't believe Malachor actually killed anyone. The Nightmare Lands are corrupt enough that no-one barring the Hero of Tython can walk into it without performing the rituals protecting their minds. Even Sith are drowned in the darkside. That's more impressive than Malachor where a wookiee can just stroll around on it.

Yes it did, do some basic research. Again, Hanharr was connected to Darth Traya.

How does the Exile's killing lead to the return of her power, when it's specifically said that she is feeding off the death and destruction she's causing? The Exile's power returned from letting go of Traya and blowing up Malachor.

That is how her power increased in such a short breadth of time, it is how she achieved power in the Force surpassing Darth Traya after Malachor V.

The Exile, until the day she died, was always weaker than Traya. Even when she fought her at Malachor she was weaker.

Both Sion and Traya state that Meetra will surpass Traya herself in power eventually, this means that Meetra as of the Revan novel is canonically stronger than the lady of betrayals.

That's actually not what that means at all. Considering Traya also said that the Exile would destroy the Force, something that very much didn't happen, I think we'll need something just a little more tangible to make such certain statements.