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Sidious and Luke are easily among the top 5 most skilled in the mythos, but at the end of the day is Luke more skilled than he is? Operating at the best of their abilities as lightsaber duelists, who has the more consistent showings and who would perform better as a duelist than their opponent? Who has the better track record as a duelist overall?

Nah, he ain't.

Sidious reigns supreme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0otZyorrCU&t=0m55s

I also might put Yoda above Luke in terms of pure lightsaber skill.

No, imo. Insofar as sheer talent, Palpatine is more skilled (and intelligent) then Luke. Luke's superiority comes from his naturally monstrous attunement to the force and strength of character.

I'd say yes. He learned from Sidious, he learned from Vader. He learned from clashing with a wide variety of high-power force users.

His first win may have been as a part of his power, but he continued to learn, practice, and be pushed. He fought in wars, plural, against a wide variety of foes and master duelists.

And, let's be honest, a lot of why *Sidious* was the best is his force talent.

Originally posted by carthage
Sidious and Luke are easily among the top 5 most skilled in the mythos, but at the end of the day is Luke more skilled than he is? Operating at the best of their abilities as lightsaber duelists, who has the more consistent showings and who would perform better as a duelist than their opponent? Who has the better track record as a duelist overall?

Luke easy.

Firstly there's the fact that he beat Palpatine in a duel (yes I know Leia helped but her assistance didn't increase Luke's technical skill with a blade).

Even if we don't count that, Luke has vastly more experience in combat and against a greater variety of foes. Palpatine is REALLY good, no question but Luke easily has the better track record.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Firstly there's the fact that he beat Palpatine in a duel (yes I know Leia helped but her assistance didn't increase Luke's technical skill with a blade).

And he lost to Palpatine on Byss.



Luke faced more foes, yes. Luke has a better track record, absolutely not. Sidious dominates almost everyone he faces on the field, Luke's been challenged by Desann, Kueller, Brakiss, Gantoris, Lumiya, and several other comparatively lackluster opponents before.

Yes, he beat Palpatine in a LS duel in Dark Empire and only got better and they both fought in a neutral area.

tbh I didn't read the OP. Yeah Luke will clean his clock 10\10 at this point.

Assuming Legends continuity, Luke Skywalker may have become more skilled then Darth Sidious in Jedi dueling arts at a certain point. But this is not officially confirmed.

Wow, interesting. When did people come up with this notion? Luke has widely been regarded as the most skilled duelist in the mythos for as long as I can remember, what gives?

Anyway, Yoda disarms Sidious in certain depictions of their fight, yet there is not a single depiction of Sidious disarming Yoda. Sidious is equal-to-or-greater-than Yoda in terms of Force power during ROTS, so the strength/attunement to the Force of Yoda can't be the reason.

Yoda #1.

Personally, I think "skill" doesn't tend to factor into the NJO+ fights. They tend to resemble brawls more than fencing. Sidious is likely more technically skilled than Luke, but Luke may be a better fighter overall in terms of swordplay based on experience and practical abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally, I think "skill" doesn't tend to factor into the NJO+ fights. They tend to resemble brawls more than fencing. Sidious is likely more technically skilled than Luke, but Luke may be a better fighter overall in terms of swordplay based on experience and practical abilities.

The way I'd put it is, if you had them in an olympic fencing competition at equal physical stats, Luke'd take gold most of the time.

The rest is just style.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And he lost to Palpatine on Byss.

Only because his mind and spirit were clouded by the dark side at that point (i.e. Luke was not at his normal effectiveness). In the rematch, when Luke had mental and spiritual clarity (i.e. normal circumstances) he defeated Palpatine.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Luke faced more foes, yes. Luke has a better track record, absolutely not. Sidious dominates almost everyone he faces on the field, Luke's been challenged by Desann, Kueller, Brakiss, Gantoris, Lumiya, and several other comparatively lackluster opponents before.

You need to consider the circumstances:

Desann- I don't know enough to comment.

Kueller- Luke was injured from his ship blowing up earlier. He'd had some medical attention but he was not in tip-top shape.

Brakiss- He was never a major threat to Luke. He was always shown as someone who could hold his ground but never had a real chance of beating Luke. Plus Luke held back as he had hope of redeeming Brakiss. At one point Luke could have cut his hand off but instead chose just to destroy his lightsabre. That really shows how superior Luke is to him.

Gantoris- Again Luke held back. He didn't want to hurt his own student.

Lumiya- In their first duel Luke lost due to unfamiliarity with her lightwhip (plus that was still early in his career). He won the rematch as he was ready for her. In their later bouts she typically relied on using bystanders as shields. In their final duel you might claim she didn't care if she died but remember at that point she still wanted Luke to think she had killed Mara. She would have fought with everything she had in order to keep up the ruse.

Plus you have to consider the simple fact that Luke is a Jedi and a good-hearted person. He doesn't WANT to hurt anyone; he believes that killing should be a last resort. It's just common sense that he's not going to "dominate" his opponents, he doesn't even want to.


Originally posted by Q99
The way I'd put it is, if you had them in an olympic fencing competition at equal physical stats, Luke'd take gold most of the time.

Exactly.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Only because his mind and spirit were clouded by the dark side at that point (i.e. Luke was not at his normal effectiveness). In the rematch, when Luke had mental and spiritual clarity (i.e. normal circumstances) he defeated Palpatine.

Which is true enough, sure. Except that we're dealing with a rusty Palpatine, and Luke doesn't consistently perform this well, which is part of the OP's criteria.



There really wasn't anything unfair, there.



Regardless he's struggled with all three of them. Sidious has completely wiped the floor with much more competent opponents.



He and Mara together were outperformed by a lone Tresina Lobi against Lumiya and Alema, that doesn't scream "Luke's consistently in a class of his own" to me.



There's a difference between not dominating lesser opponents and being pressed by lesser opponents. Sidious fighting Maul and Savage is a perfect example of this; he danced around them with ease and was never put in a disadvantageous position.

There's a TV Trope called 'strong as he needs to be.'

If the plot calls for a lone droideka to hold off Luke and Mara, it'll happen, however stupidly illogical it is.

Well, as far as showings go, probably no.

But logically, Luke is stronger in the Force, has honed his lightsaber skills without pause over the decades (unlike Sidious) and is just more battle-tested. From that viewpoint, Luke kind of has to be more skilled.

Palpatine definitely has the better dueling resume, though.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
There's a TV Trope called 'strong as he needs to be.'

If the plot calls for a lone droideka to hold off Luke and Mara, it'll happen, however stupidly illogical it is.

I really haven't a care for out of universe explanations, the OP asked who had the better track record and I answered.

Luke stomps in a fight, but Sidious is more studied then Luke would ever be.

Well Nai just claimed that Sidious was in fact, barely studied. Anyone who's read Plagueis, what's his actual training like?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Nai just claimed that Sidious was in fact, barely studied. Anyone who's read Plagueis, what's his actual training like? As brutal and as intense as you'd expect...

His saber training. Not.... the other saber training.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious was in fact, barely studied.

Intriguing. mmm

Nai has no basis for that, lol.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/photo_zpsdddd9efd.jpg

A rather ambitious station for an ignorant clod, but perhaps he's just that much of a natural? mmm

I'm cool with either interpretation tbh. stoned

Was wondering if that had been confirmed.

Not that Nick Gillard didn't tell us in 2004 that Sidious is a master of all weapons and styles.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/photo_zpsdddd9efd.jpg

A rather ambitious station for an ignorant clod, but perhaps he's just that much of a natural? mmm

I'm cool with either interpretation tbh. stoned

That was what immediately came to mind. But I'd want some more detail on Nai's point about his training in Plagueis: "The guy received nearly no formal lightsaber training by his own master (as mentioned in "Darth Plagueis"." Any thoughts, since you have read the book?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not that Nick Gillard didn't tell us in 2004 that Sidious is a master of all weapons and styles.

Pretty sure extensive sparring was a Banite Sith thing. Even Maul got to spar a lot with Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was what immediately came to mind. But I'd want some more detail on Nai's point about his training in Plagueis: "The guy received nearly no formal lightsaber training by his own master (as mentioned in "Darth Plagueis"." Any thoughts, since you have read the book?

I haven't seen any of Nai's posts on the subject {he's still on my ignore list, I think?}. If he said that Plagueis doesn't feature sparring between Plagueis and Sidious, he's right. But if he said Sidious is untrained or whatever, he's flat-out wrongmaking a peculiar inference.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not that Nick Gillard didn't tell us in 2004 that Sidious is a master of all weapons and styles. Didn't know that, interesting.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was what immediately came to mind. But I'd want some more detail on Nai's point about his training in Plagueis: "The guy received nearly no formal lightsaber training by his own master (as mentioned in "Darth Plagueis"." Any thoughts, since you have read the book? What Temp says, it doesn't feature any sparring, but that doesn't mean their wasn't any.

There is a lot of lightsaber practice however, for example Plagueis takes Sidious to Hypori (which he is said to have done so frequently) and together and they practice blast deflection against 200 battle droids.

Plagueis and Sidious also practice fighting with saberstaffs against an army of Kursid warriors, both of these things are implied to be regular exercises.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And he lost to Palpatine on Byss.
A Dark Side nexus

Originally posted by Stigma
A Dark Side nexus

Dark Side Luke

Pretty sure that only hampered him at the time...

By that same token you could say Mustifar!Anakin was hampered, but that wouldn't make being on a DS nexus a disadvantage for him.

What I mean was, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Luke was actually struggling to overcome the Emperor's dark influence, in that respect he would have in fact being futilely attempting to use the light side, not the dark.

Which is why the Emperor is then able to mentally dominate him, something he was unable to do in their final showdown on Byss. Altogether I have little doubt that Luke, once free from the Emperor's influence, was stronger than before.

I think you got a little confused with your wording there, which in turn has left me confused, but no matter.



I was under no such impression. Luke's struggle to overcome the Dark Side was during his brief duel with Leia; during the battle on Byss he fully intended to use the dark side powers Palpatine had taught him to destroy him. Fight fire with fire, if you will. He felt it was necessary that even if he could never be redeemed, even if he had to die in the end, he had to kill Palpatine by any means possible.

In their second battle, Leia helped Luke break free of the dark side, and he realized that he was wrong. Fighting fire with fire was not the answer, and he went on about how the way of the Jedi was not a solitary path, etc. etc.

And it's made clear that Leia isn't helping Luke in the saber duel.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I was under no such impression. Luke's struggle to overcome the Dark Side was during his brief duel with Leia; during the battle on Byss he fully intended to use the dark side powers Palpatine had taught him to destroy him. Fight fire with fire, if you will. He felt it was necessary that even if he could never be redeemed, even if he had to die in the end, he had to kill Palpatine by any means possible.

In their second battle, Leia helped Luke break free of the dark side, and he realized that he was wrong. Fighting fire with fire was not the answer, and he went on about how the way of the Jedi was not a solitary path, etc. etc. Well I've only seen the one panel, so I'll refer to you on that one.

Dark Empire I is actually pretty good tbh, though I wasn't as fond of the following two issues. Relatively short, worth the read; pick it up, if you can.

Its weirdly hard to find.

Originally posted by Sinious
Its weirdly hard to find.

Try the Audiodrama, they're pretty good.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dark Empire I is actually pretty good tbh, though I wasn't as fond of the following two issues. Relatively short, worth the read; pick it up, if you can.

Yeah, DE is a bit dated but honestly pretty good. I still have issues with it undermining ROTJ, tho.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, DE is a bit dated but honestly pretty good. I still have issues with it undermining ROTJ, tho.

Empire's End was the worst of the three tbh. The first one was best.