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Both in their primes.

Sabers

Force

All out

Battle takes place on neutral ground

Dooku wins sabers and all-out. Not sure on Force.

>OP has Krayt below Dooku

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1341734200.gif

Originally posted by ILS
>OP has Krayt below Dooku

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1341734200.gif

I believe Dooku is above Krayt.

When is next versus series comin out.

To elaborate on my previous standing, Dooku is clearly the more masterful duelist, with both evidently more refined technique and just better dueling feats. I don't see any reasonable argument being made for Cade winning a majority in sheer lightsaber combat.

Force is harder to judge because whilst Dooku's knowledge of the Force and mastery of it definitely surpasses Cade's, raw power is a closer call. It doesn't help that Dooku's Force Lightning can be repulsed by Cade's Protection Bubble. Telekinesis is pretty close but I'd rank Cade somewhere between Maul and Dooku at best - I'd say Dooku's obelisk feat remains unrivaled. Then again, Dark Transfer could potentially be a quick win for Cade if he manages to get close.

Overall goes to Dooku. He's considerably more skilled and while he wouldn't make short work of Cade with a lightsaber, he would definitely win any engagement between the two that way. His Force attacks are probably of minimal consequence unless he catches Cade off-guard with telekinesis (which is entirely possible), and Cade definitely isn't winning via Force. I'm not sold on Cade's Dark Transfer being a get-out-of-jail-free card, particularly the argument of Cade being able to beat Dooku as soon as he touches him, so I'll have to award this to the Count. Cade can't really get close enough to Tyranus to touch him for a majority anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'd say Dooku's obelisk feat remains unrivaled.

It really baffles me how this bit feat impresses anyone

It's doubtful it took much more power to accomplish than a real world hand grenade detonation being generous

The parameters of which would require about... 50-100 tons total mass (or about 18.5 to 37 meters cubed of material assuming granite density) and lifting them about 2-4 meters IIRC

Think a hand grenade's worth about a megajoule or a few anyway :hmm

I'm not going to throw some n-canon numbers around, but a Savage Opress who was drawing off his pain and using maximum effort was barely lifting two of them up for a period of time, and in the same episode he was capable of pushing a shuttle of a cliff with only moderate effort and no pain.

On the other hand, Dooku required seemingly moderate effort to lift about a dozen of them.

Among other pretty impressive feats.

EDIT: On top of that Chaos, your assuming what the obelisks are made of, considering they are there for the purposes of training it could well be an extremely dense/heavy material. The effort Savage required to lift them would suggest as much.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not going to throw some n-canon numbers around, but a Savage Opress who was drawing off his pain and using maximum effort was barely lifting two of them up for a period of time, and in the same episode he was capable of pushing a shuttle of a cliff with only moderate effort and no pain.

The shuttle feat is legit

And Dooku's better performance with the Obelisks would suggest he can easily replicate it

That's all the Obelisks are useful for though, powerscaling

Given how fiction generally doesn't play with consistency well?

I'm not exactly about to start assuming the pillars are made of some unnamed ultra-yetstillmuchlesssothanneutronium-dense substance just to assert a facsimile of consistency on any fiction

The ease Dooku accomplishes the feat with is another nice observation towards powerscaling, but it's ultimately unquantifiable in measure if you're going to make anything more out of it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Among other pretty impressive feats.

EDIT: On top of that Chaos, your assuming what the obelisks are made of, considering they are there for the purposes of training it could well be an extremely dense/heavy material. The effort Savage required to lift them would suggest as much.

If you're fine with assigning an arbitrary, unsupported, speculative, entirely fictional density as opposed to working with real known materials when given no further data to work with?

Not exactly going to suggest you stop it

It's too subjective for my taste, but this hobby's subjective to start with

That said?

I'd still just stick with powerscaling to Savage's feat later in the same episode through this feat

I'm not, that's why I questioned your assumption it was granite density, and agreed with SunRazer's powerscaling approach.

That's fair

My bad there

Still not entirely awake yet :maybe

That said, you guys could just go the whole nine yards and note that even fairly late into the Clone Wars Dooku's TK was good enough to match and even overpower Anakin's (notably that sandstorm feat from TCW IIRC)

A much weaker incarnation of Anakin kind of pushed a CIS Dreadnaught into the path of speeding missiles launched at the surface from orbit

He pushed it faster than said missiles in fact

Yeah I had noticed that recently, however is that Dreadnaught feat from OCW?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah I had noticed that recently, however is that Dreadnaught feat from OCW?

Happened in this

Only ever found the complete thing in spanish...

Scan quality in general kind of sucks too

Originally posted by SunRazer
Force is harder to judge because whilst Dooku's knowledge of the Force and mastery of it definitely surpasses Cade's Not totally convinced here.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Happened in this

Only ever found the complete thing in spanish...

Scan quality in general kind of sucks too Ah I see, problem with OCW and the comics surrounding it is they tend to exaggerate abilities.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah I see, problem with OCW and the comics surrounding it is they tend to exaggerate abilities.

Having only worked with a small sample of feats spread out through multiple Star Wars media?

I can honestly say that's objectively not true in so much that OCW feats are hardly stand out in terms of what's actually most powerful

Hell, even the movies can be said to have better speed feats when taken in conjunction with novel narrative

If you're talking raw power wise?

Just about everything not of the first 6 films is "an exaggeration" by what standards you seem to possess :hmm

Tossing senate pods being the best feats found there, that's hardly comparable to even budging those shuttles like Maul and Savage did

They grossly misrepresent the abilities of characters, Windu, Yoda and Grievous for example do things they have never done in the EU, let alone in Canon. Given that I'm not inclined to believe their portrayal of Anakin is at all accurate either.

Not really seeing it :hmm

Windu's performance during the battle of Dantooine? Nothing really stands out as being incredibly insane in terms of how much power goes into each feat.

You'd be surprised how little energy jumping a few hundred meters to kilometers with a significant parabolic arc takes... like significantly less than the time Grievous sent a piece of blast door flying with a kick down a hallway. All about how paltry Windu's mass is compared to that section of door... and that's still a bit feat compared to Kenobi actively damaging Grievous' armor with his bare hands.

Think Yoda's best shit was moving those carriers? It's a weaker showing than Padawan Anakin's and hilariously weaker than anything found in TFU

And TFU hardly has a monopoly on high end feats in the franchise

And Grievous is just a ****ing mess anyway :maybe

Dude, a random padawan levitated a star destroyer.

I heard a rumor that that padawan was being possessed by the spirit of Coleman Trebor at the time.

I find that highly unlikely - were the spirit of Coleman possessing said padawan, the star destroyer no doubt would have inadvertently crumpled under the power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, a random padawan levitated a star destroyer.

Who did what now? :hmm

Got a link?

Sounds interesting :maybe

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Who did what now? :hmm

Got a link?

Sounds interesting :maybe

Here:

http://s20.photobucket.com/user/Q99/media/Vanishingpointp12-13.png.html

I've never seen that

That's hilarious :lmao

Also an outlier for having been done by a random padawan, but still hilarious

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
I've never seen that

That's hilarious :lmao

Also an outlier for having been done by a random padawan, but still hilarious

It was a Jedi Knight actually.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
It was a Jedi Knight actually.

Somewhat "better"

Possibly works depending on the exact context too (slowing it down as opposed to outright stopping it from terminal velocity free fall for example)

**** if I know given I've never read the shit

Still hilariously out there for a character that was probably just a one off though

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah I see, problem with OCW and the comics surrounding it is they tend to exaggerate abilities.

Just to ask, do you also find this exaggerated?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4605627-2745118124-46055.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4605628-4085535054-46056.jpg

This was done by two otherwise less powerful Force users than even padawan Anakin. And as far as PT Jedi are concerned, there is also Yarael Poof containing the power of a planet destroying artifact while mortally wounded.

Back to the fight, Dooku takes this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, a random padawan levitated a star destroyer.

Welp. That's another character that we can put above HoT.

Oh grr, that makes me mad!

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Just to ask, do you also find this exaggerated?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4605627-2745118124-46055.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4605628-4085535054-46056.jpg

This was done by two otherwise less powerful Force users than even padawan Anakin. And as far as PT Jedi are concerned, there is also Yarael Poof containing the power of a planet destroying artifact while mortally wounded.

Back to the fight, Dooku takes this. Has he appeared in other mediums that show him having less that that ability?

Is the medium in general notorious for exaggerating character abilities?

If not then no.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Has he appeared in other mediums that show him having less that that ability?

Is the medium in general notorious for exaggerating character abilities?

If not then no.

Mmm, since we're going OT, I think it would be better to open a thread specifically to discuss this matter.

So people are willing to accept the satellite feat? http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

@ChaosTheory123 - I never made any assumptions as to the material or content of the obelisks. I just said that based on Savage's performance and his other feat in the same episode, we can tell how powerful Tyranus is.

@ILS - He knows more powers and has a more fluent command of them is what I'm saying.

Oops

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Somewhat "better"

Possibly works depending on the exact context too (slowing it down as opposed to outright stopping it from terminal velocity free fall for example)

**** if I know given I've never read the shit

Still hilariously out there for a character that was probably just a one off though


It was very much a 'oneness with the force' moment, and completely badass.

The last stand of Rivi-Anu

Yeah

Suppose attributing it to attaining Oneness would be better than outright discounting it as an outlier :hmm

The feat isn't out of place in the franchise in so much as the person accomplishing it and all

Not a bad last stand, especially given this is her sole appearance

Considering she was young, it may be she was a rising star, unpolished but a potential really great... if her career hadn't been cut short.

I'm thinking it's a Ganner Rhysode-type situation going on.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah I see, problem with OCW and the comics surrounding it is they tend to exaggerate abilities.

The Legends/Canon distinction sinks your battleship, though. There's nothing to contradict: OCW no longer has to align with canon and is therefore as valid as anything else under the Legends umbrella.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Legends/Canon distinction sinks your battleship, though. There's nothing to contradict: OCW no longer has to align with canon and is therefore as valid as anything else under the Legends umbrella. That doesn't make OCW an any more accurate portrayal of characters as they appear in the new continuity.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That doesn't make OCW an any more accurate portrayal of characters as they appear in the new continuity.

The problem is that each character exists in both continuities. If we are discussing only canon!incarnations of the characters, then I'd agree. But no one ever specified that we were.

Point being that Canon still takes precedence over Legends.

There's a canon/legend distinction only for the canon side. The legends side (basically our EU forum) uses both legends and canon material except when they contradict.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Point being that Canon still takes precedence over Legends.

Who suggested otherwise? But this forum explores both canon and Legends content. OCW feats are no more or less Legend-y than Legacy feats or TOR feats or TFU feats. They're all equally non-canon. If you can point me to where a Lucasfilm official has identified degrees, stages, or levels of Legend status, I'll concede.

Until then, it's perfectly reasonable and perfectly valid to utilize Legends feats in a forum that lets you do just that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's a canon/legend distinction only for the canon side. The legends side (basically our EU forum) uses both legends and canon material except when they contradict.

You're free to direct me to where that has been articulated as official policy. The "levels of canon" don't exist anymore in Legends because Legends isn't canon. It's all equally non-canon. OCW isn't less canon than another Legends story; if that's your claim, it's your burden to prove and I'd suggest you arm yourself with something stronger than an anti-film agenda to defend it.

Obvious and clumsy attempts to stack the deck are obvious and clumsy.

I would think the holocron continuity database technically exists as a legends source now, ergo those levels still applying to the Legends continuity.

As much as I deeply respect your opinion, I think I should like something a bit more authoritative in this instance.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're free to direct me to where that has been articulated as official policy. The "levels of canon" don't exist anymore in Legends because Legends isn't canon. It's all equally non-canon. OCW isn't less canon than another Legends story; if that's your claim, it's your burden to prove and I'd suggest you arm yourself with something stronger than an anti-film agenda to defend it.

Obvious and clumsy attempts to stack the deck are obvious and clumsy.

It doesn't need to be said? Like, what are you thinking, that now all canon sections can't be used at the same time as the legend parts? That's impossible, all the EU was built off of the movies and shows. The canon part can freely ignore everything that happened in legends. The legends part cannot possibly do the same. If you want to talk about legend materials, you have to acknowledge the canon materials.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't need to be said?

You're not off to a good start lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like, what are you thinking, that now all canon sections can't be used at the same time as the legend parts? That's impossible, all the EU was built off of the movies and shows.

No... If a thread wants to constrain characters to their canon iterations, they're free to do so. Unless otherwise specified in the OP, I'll be using Legends feats whenever I please for characters who exist in each domain simultaneously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The canon part can freely ignore everything that happened in legends. The legends part cannot possibly do the same. If you want to talk about legend materials, you have to acknowledge the canon materials.

Canon was always free to do that, Neph. George and co. ran roughshod over the EU all the time. The EU has always been the abused and neglected Bottom in that particular relationship.

The Canon/Legends distinction simply means that there's no more levels of canon. It either is or it isn't. There's no G-canon, no T-canon, no C-canon. TFU & TOR; Dark Empire and Path of Destruction; Legacy and NJO. All are Legends, all are equally non-canon, and no story or set of stories is more or less canon than the other.

It's simply binary now. You are or you're not.

And since OCW is no more or less canon than any other Legends story, including SWTOR and Legacy and KOTOR and TFU and so on ad infinitum, users are free to draw upon such feats unless the OP specifically confines characters to their canon iterations.

The Legends tiers were cancelled before the Canon/Legend split. Nothing suggests they came back.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who suggested otherwise? But this forum explores both canon and Legends content. OCW feats are no more or less Legend-y than Legacy feats or TOR feats or TFU feats. They're all equally non-canon. If you can point me to where a Lucasfilm official has identified degrees, stages, or levels of Legend status, I'll concede.

Until then, it's perfectly reasonable and perfectly valid to utilize Legends feats in a forum that lets you do just that. Not me. But as you say, this forum explores Legends and Canon, unless we are discussing Legends only OCW is inevitably going to find itself coming to blows and overruled by Canon sources.

Bearing in mind that OCW has always been - as C-Canon - equal to any Legends source, it's how they stack up to Canon that sets them apart, i.e. poorly, that has not changed.

But by taking OCW at face value, when Canon is also being considered, your suggesting OCW is equal/takes precedence over Canon material.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're not off to a good start lol.

Common sense usually doesn't have to pointed out.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No... If a thread wants to constrain characters to their canon iterations, they're free to do so. Unless otherwise specified in the OP, I'll be using Legends feats whenever I please for characters who exist in each domain simultaneously.

No, you got this the wrong way around. I was asking if you can't bring canon feats into something about legends. Since your whole point is that we can't use canon as a basis of comparison for legends material. Surely since one is canon and the other isn't, if the EU contradicts canon then it's invalid as evidence even when accounting for legends material?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Canon was always free to do that, Neph. George and co. ran roughshod over the EU all the time. The EU has always been the abused and neglected Bottom in that particular relationship.

No shit. But you're looking at this from the wrong angle. Canon doesn't have to pay attention to the EU, but the EU does have to align with canon if you're using both.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Canon/Legends distinction simply means that there's no more levels of canon. It either is or it isn't. There's no G-canon, no T-canon, no C-canon. TFU & TOR; Dark Empire and Path of Destruction; Legacy and NJO. All are Legends, all are equally non-canon, and no story or set of stories is more or less canon than the other.

So are you actually speaking here or are you just typing words without registering anything? This isn't an issue of levels of canon. It has never been an issue of levels of canon. This is completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's simply binary now. You are or you're not.

And since OCW is no more or less canon than any other Legends story, including SWTOR and Legacy and KOTOR and TFU and so on ad infinitum, users are free to draw upon such feats unless the OP specifically confines characters to their canon iterations.

No, you're wrong here. I think you're having a fundamental difficulty with grasping what the actual point is. No-one is saying the OCW feats are less canon or some technicality bullshit you're using to trump them up. They always occupied the same level of canon as most other works, they weren't bumped down to T-canon or some shit. No-one has ever said that they are "less-canon". Just that they're exaggerations. That didn't stop being a thing just because they were made non-canon. At the time of their creation they were intended as exaggerations and thus they are forever. Canon has nothing to do with it. People have been always allowed to draw upon such feats. It's not like people said they didn't take place (though tbh that Rivi-Anu thing is so bollocks it would be best to just ignore it), just they were heavily exaggerated in their portrayal. Which is what people always bring up when these feats are drawn upon. As they are free to do. Nothings changed by the EU being made legends.

My first post had nothing to do with the OCW feats anyway, I was just clarifying what the canon/legend distinction was.

Originally posted by Q99
It was very much a 'oneness with the force' moment, and completely badass.

The last stand of Rivi-Anu

Rivi-Anu was awesome!

Originally posted by Q99
Considering she was young, it may be she was a rising star, unpolished but a potential really great... if her career hadn't been cut short.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not me. But as you say, this forum explores Legends and Canon, unless we are discussing Legends only OCW is inevitably going to find itself coming to blows and overruled by Canon sources.

Bearing in mind that OCW has always been - as C-Canon - equal to any Legends source, it's how they stack up to Canon that sets them apart, i.e. poorly, that has not changed.

But by taking OCW at face value, when Canon is also being considered, your suggesting OCW is equal/takes precedence over Canon material.

Not at all. Canon also establishes that Sith cannot exist in any form posthumously; does that mean that any thread that involves a canon character and Vitiate, the reborn Emperor, Darth Nihilus, Darth Krayt, etc. {Sith Lords who have, in the old EU, survived their deaths} is suggesting a Legends work takes precedence over canon material? Can Coleman Trebor beat Vitiate, since Trebor is a canon character and Vitiate doesn't exist canonically?

The Legends/Canon dichotomy often presents us with mutually exclusive scenarios, but that's just it: both domains are mutually exclusive now. There's no cohesive universe like there was before, no levels of canon. It's binary: a story is canon or it isn't.

No one is suggesting that any source takes precedence over the other. Legends material simply provides us with feats and abilities attributed to that character and as long as this forum allows Legends feats to be used, they can be used for characters who exist in canon and Legends.

Your entire argument hinges on the outdated paradigm: OCW "contradicts" canon and therefore cannot be considered. Plenty of Legends material that we consider here "contradicts" canon and yet here we are, using it anyway. The Legends/Canon split rendered that way of thinking obsolete. It's all explicitly non-canon.

OCW and its feats are perfectly valid material to draw on in these discussions unless the OP specifies that the character in question is limited to his canon iteration.

It's a double standard, quite frankly, and I won't even entertain the notion until it's applied broadly.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. Canon also establishes that Sith cannot exist in any form posthumously;

When?

Originally posted by Nephthys
When?

"The Witches of the Mist" commentary {it's the reason George ultimately nixed the idea of Bane and Revan returning in spectral form on Mortis} and echoed again by Dave Filoni.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. Canon also establishes that Sith cannot exist in any form posthumously; does that mean that any thread that involves a canon character and Vitiate, the reborn Emperor, Darth Nihilus, Darth Krayt, etc. {Sith Lords who have, in the old EU, survived their deaths} is suggesting a Legends work takes precedence over canon material? Can Coleman Trebor beat Vitiate, since Trebor is a canon character and Vitiate doesn't exist canonically?

The Legends/Canon dichotomy often presents us with mutually exclusive scenarios, but that's just it: both domains are mutually exclusive now. There's no cohesive universe like there was before, no levels of canon. It's binary: a story is canon or it isn't.

No one is suggesting that any source takes precedence over the other. Legends material simply provides us with feats and abilities attributed to that character and as long as this forum allows Legends feats to be used, they can be used for characters who exist in canon and Legends.

Your entire argument hinges on the outdated paradigm: OCW "contradicts" canon and therefore cannot be considered. Plenty of Legends material that we consider here "contradicts" canon and yet here we are, using it anyway. The Legends/Canon split rendered that way of thinking obsolete. It's all explicitly non-canon.

OCW and its feats are perfectly valid material to draw on in these discussions unless the OP specifies that the character in question is limited to his canon iteration.

It's a double standard, quite frankly, and I won't even entertain the notion until it's applied broadly. That approach doesn't help your argument. If you approach Legends and Canon are mutually exclusive, you can't consider both of them in relation to a single character, you have to consider one or the other.

ChaosTheory suggested that Anakin's OCW feats can be considered in relation to a occurence that happened in Canon, but again if you approach Canon and Legends are mutually exclusive, only one of these continuities is true, and the other is false, and they certainly cannot be compared.

Disney has made it pretty clear that Canon is the "true" story, so OCW remains invalidated.

However the OP has not, as you say, specified Canon only, and we are instead approaching this situation as if Canon and Legends are not mutually exclusive, but part of a cohesive continuity.

If we do that then he have to consider some kind of strata of accuracy in which some sources are less reliable than others.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That approach doesn't help your argument. If you approach Legends and Canon are mutually exclusive, you can't consider both of them in relation to a single character, you have to consider one or the other.

That approach most certainly does help my argument. Until you're prepared to apply your way of thinking across the board {i.e. to all things that "contradict" canon}, I'm not prepared to entertain this specific example.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
ChaosTheory suggested that Anakin's OCW feats can be considered in relation to a occurence that happened in Canon,

He's right: Nothing in this particular OCW event contradicts canon anyway, beyond the fact that it falls under a Legends source.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
but again if you approach Canon and Legends are mutually exclusive, only one of these continuities is true, and the other is false, and they certainly cannot be compared.

Only if we examine things under the outdated model, which I've already demonstrated no longer exists.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Disney has made it pretty clear that Canon is the "true" story, so OCW remains invalidated.

Then by your definition, that canon "true story" doesn't include things like SWTOR or TFU or Legacy or Dark Empire or Darth Plagueis and so on ad infinitum.

I disagree with your stance categorically, but take even greater issue with how selectively you're applying it here.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
However the OP has not, as you say, specified Canon only, and we are instead approaching this situation as if Canon and Legends are not mutually exclusive, but part of a cohesive continuity.

There is no cohesive continuity other than canon. {In fact, Legends notoriously contradicted itself all the time.} No one is suggesting that Legends feats and Legends sources are canonical or let alone that the overrule canon.

What is being suggested is that this forum allows users to draw on material from both domains and OCW isn't some magical exception to that fact.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There is no cohesive continuity other than canon. {In fact, Legends notoriously contradicted itself all the time.} No one is suggesting that Legends feats and Legends sources are canonical or let alone that the overrule canon.

What is being suggested is that this forum allows users to draw on material from both domains and OCW isn't some magical exception to that fact.
Precisely.

Again, no-one's saying you can't draw on OCW. Just that it's not representative of the character's true abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, no-one's saying you can't draw on OCW. Just that it's not representative of the character's true abilities.

Perhaps it's not representative of a character's canonical abilities. The legends/canon distinction renders the entire discussion of what is and what is not canonical moot.

All I've been saying is that OCW feats are as valid as any other to draw on when discussing these things.

Based on what is OCW not representative of the characters' abilities?

On Neph's liking, I assume.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That approach most certainly does help my argument. Until you're prepared to apply your way of thinking across the board {i.e. to all things that "contradict" canon}, I'm not prepared to entertain this specific example.I'm applying this way of thinking specifically to character abilities, because in a vs. debate you can't consider differing variations of a single character as equally valid, or you'll inevitably run into contradictions. e.g. their is a stark contrast between OCW Grievous and Grievous' portrayal in other sources.

OCW Grievous > most Jedi Council Members. Canon Grievous doesn't. But by your logic OCW is just as valid as any others source. Making it impossible to conclude whether Grievous can beat a Jedi Council Member or not.

In that respect you either establish some sources as inaccurate, or only consider feats from one source. You can't treat them as all equally valid.Multiple OCW potrayals of character abilities are problematic, including Anakin's, given that we can't expect any of them to be accurate.

Nonetheless even if you believe OCW a perfectly accurate source, you can't pretend that Canon potrayals of characters haven't in some ways contradicted their portrayal in Legends sources. They have, and that issue has to be confronted.
I'm perfectly aware of that, but what you don't understand is that the new Disney model is incompatible with Legends + Canon debates.
Absolutely, all of that has been rendered Legends/non-canon.

But this isn't my stance, I'm explaining the result of approaching these continuities as mutually exclusive as you suggest. Which demands that you choose one occurrence or continuity, and in the process falsify the other. They can't both be true.
But by accepting OCW are valid, your overruling contradictory potrayals of Windu, Yoda, Grievous, Anakin and others in Canon.

Fact is you simply can't treat every source as equally valid, as there will come a point when one potrayal contradicts another, and as of yet, you've failed to provide a means of resolving those contradictions.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps it's not representative of a character's canonical abilities. The legends/canon distinction renders the entire discussion of what is and what is not canonical moot.

All I've been saying is that OCW feats are as valid as any other to draw on when discussing these things.

No, I didn't say anything about canonical abilities either. They are incongruous with all portrayals.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm applying this way of thinking specifically to character abilities, because in a vs. debate you can't consider differing variations of a single character as equally valid, or you'll inevitably run into contradictions. e.g. their is a stark contrast between OCW Grievous and Grievous' portrayal in other sources.

The nebulous contradictions you cite existed long before the Legends/Canon split. As I say, Legends was notorious for contradicting even itself. How many times did we see a character's abilities fluctuate in either direction for the purposes of the plot?

http://www.masterskywalker.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/luke_anh2.jpg

Because most of these things couldn't be reconciled, the general rule of thumb around here was that we use a character's peak performance as the standard unless otherwise specified.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
OCW Grievous > most Jedi Council Members. Canon Grievous doesn't.

According to what source? He defeats a group of exhausted Jedi in their first encounter. His fight with Shaak Ti is similarly revealing: he confronts her only after she's fended off a horde of MagnaGuards.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But by your logic OCW is just as valid as any others source. Making it impossible to conclude whether Grievous can beat a Jedi Council Member or not.

The issues posed by Grievous's fluctuating abilities are no more egregious than any other example of a Legends character's abilities fluctuating due to plot stupidity.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In that respect you either establish some sources as inaccurate, or only consider feats from one source. You can't treat them as all equally valid.

That happened all the time before the Legends/Canon distinction. The issue for you is that it isn't a seamless, uncomplicated portrayal. I agree: but the canon/legends dichotomy hasn't changed that. Even within canon, we see disparate displays of power.

{As an example: Dooku is held hostage by a group of pirates in season 1; in season 3, Savage {whom Dooku just thoroughly spanked} flattens a swarm of surrounding droids. In that same episode, Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-Wan are kept prisoner against their will in the same cell; in season 5, Savage destroys a Mandalorian cell with the Force by flexing his arms.}

If you're looking for consistency, you've come to to the wrong place, even now.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Multiple OCW potrayals of character abilities are problematic, including Anakin's, given that we can't expect any of them to be accurate.

Because they're inconsistent? As I've demonstrated, consistency has yet to be achieved here.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm perfectly aware of that, but what you don't understand is that the new Disney model is incompatible with Legends + Canon debates.
Absolutely, all of that has been rendered Legends/non-canon.

Then the moment you disallow debates that involve Legends elements {e.g. no Vitiate vs. Yoda}, I won't challenge you anymore on this issue {but we'll still disagree}.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But this isn't my stance, I'm explaining the result of approaching these continuities as mutually exclusive as you suggest. Which demands that you choose one occurrence or continuity, and in the process falsify the other. They can't both be true.
But by accepting OCW are valid, your overruling contradictory potrayals of Windu, Yoda, Grievous, Anakin and others in Canon.

Fact is you simply can't treat every source as equally valid, as there will come a point when one potrayal contradicts another, and as of yet, you've failed to provide a means of resolving those contradictions.

The fact is that you're looking for and expecting consistency. The problem is that I could literally bury you with examples of inconsistency in either the Legends or canon domains. Before and after this split, consistency has not been achieved.

So ultimately I remain exactly where I began: unless an OP specifies against the use of such sources, I'll be citing OCW feats in arguments just as much as feats from TFU, Dark Empire, Legacy, SWTOR, KOTOR, ad infinitum.

I can understand where you come from, however when it comes to characters with Canon portrayals, I think consistency can be achieved by using Canon as a measuring stick by which to judge everything else, which is effectively what I'm advocating.

You appear to differ in this respect, but I believe Canon in and of itself, to be pretty consistent bar PIS, which can be easily isolated. And Disney/Lucasfilm has claimed that all future material will share that level of consistency.

On the other hand treating everything as equally valid doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it worse, because if you don't isolate these inconsistencies and resolve them, and instead just pretend they don't exist, those inconsistencies are going to manifest in the form of illogical and unreasonable arguments.

Dooku solidly in all 3

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The nebulous contradictions you cite existed long before the Legends/Canon split. As I say, Legends was notorious for contradicting even itself.

Not really. I mean yes, there were a few contradictions sure, but overall "Legends" was incredibly consistent.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
How many times did we see a character's abilities fluctuate in either direction for the purposes of the plot?

Well duh. Of course they fluctuate, that's only logical. NOBODY performs at their absolute best all the time. Even Beckham has bad games sometimes.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
The issues posed by Grievous's fluctuating abilities are no more egregious than any other example of a Legends character's abilities fluctuating due to plot stupidity.

By "plot stupidity" you mean logic and common sense, not to mention differing circumstances.

Originally posted by chilled monkey


Well duh. Of course they fluctuate, that's only logical. NOBODY performs at their absolute best all the time. Even Beckham has bad games sometimes.


Yea, I think some people underestimate how much there's fluctuation.

That's why there's a lot of fights where I'll specify one wins most of the time while other people are saying "X dominates/X blitzes," because maybe X *can* do that on a good day, but Y on a good day can defend against it and make it a fight, and X on a bad day and Y on a good can produce an unlikely upset.


An example would be, say, Aurra Sing, who's no stronger than Aayla Secura, almost beating Qui-Gon *and* Kenobi at the same time.