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Who thinks they will be booted from EU and collapse after this latest shit storm of a almost $2 billion default.

The U.S is 20 Trillion in the hole and we don't seem to give a shit. Why should being broke bother Greece or the EU?

Originally posted by Flyattractor
The U.S is 20 Trillion in the hole and we don't seem to give a shit. Why should being broke bother Greece or the EU?

The EU is tired of bailing them out.

Always loved the Expanded Universe.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The EU is tired of bailing them out.

Then they should have known better then to ever do it in the first place.

Besides its just money.. They can always just make more.

That's what we do in the U.S.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Then they should have known better then to ever do it in the first place.

Besides its just money.. They can always just make more.

That's what we do in the U.S.

Haha, they can't make anymore, thats the point..

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The EU is tired of bailing them out.

And yet the EU is telling them they're being irresponsible by NOT borrowing more. They're also complaining about the numbers of people wanting to vote in the Greek referendum. Democracy eh? Pfft. Getting in the way of capitalism. Terrible.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Who thinks they will be booted from EU and collapse after this latest shit storm of a almost $2 billion default.

Only 2billion? That doesn't seem right. Being in the hole 2billion is nothing for a country on Greece's level. Mark Zuckerberg could bail them out and he wouldn't even feel it.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Haha, they can't make anymore, thats the point..

Then just borrow it. Nobody (at least countries) have to pay back actual Debt any more.

Hell Puerto Rico is 70 Mill in the whole and its just a country of 3 million.

Its just imaginary numbers. Just Ignore it.

No one will give them any more money, thats the point, they just defaulted..

Originally posted by Robtard
Only 2billion? That doesn't seem right. Being in the hole 2billion is nothing for a country. Mark Zuckerberg could bail them out and he wouldn't even feel it.

It's not 2 billion. That was just this month's payment that they never paid

Originally posted by jaden101
It's not 2 billion. That was just this month's payment that they never paid

Ah, okay, my error. That makes a lot more sense.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ah, okay, my error. That makes a lot more sense.

DUR

Even Ali got hit.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ah, okay, my error. That makes a lot more sense.

*cents

Originally posted by Robtard
Even Ali got hit.

No way, lies!

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
*cents

Missed opportunities

Rob's rich, lets bail out Greece with his deep pockets.

You guys can all help Greece: https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html

Hahahahahaha

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Rob's rich, lets bail out Greece with his deep pockets.

Only if I get to own Greece.

Originally posted by Robtard
Only if I get to own Greece.

If I was ever broke and homeless could I come live with you?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
If I was ever broke and homeless could I come live with you?

Only if he gets to own you.

I really don't know enough about the situation to say who--if anyone--deserves the greatest share of the blame for Greece's current problems, but it seems to me like the country is just designed to fail economically. They don't have any particularly important industries, their workforce is aging, and they're absolutely drowning in corruption at every level.
Originally posted by Robtard
Only 2billion? That doesn't seem right. Being in the hole 2billion is nothing for a country on Greece's level. Mark Zuckerberg could bail them out and he wouldn't even feel it. I think it's less about the amount of the default and more about the panic that it would set off.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Only if he gets to own you.

I will own him, duh.

Originally posted by Robtard
Only if I get to own Greece. .

You could probably buy it and Puerto Rico at the same time.

Just to help out those who don't know the basics of the situation:

- Greece is more than just a member of the EU, it is a member of the Eurozone, the group of countries that use the Euro as currency. Currency Union was supposed to be a one-way street.

- People were very willing to lend to Greece because it was a Eurozone member, so its currency was backed by the whole zone, not just Greece itself. With the ECB and Germany backing the Euro project, large loans seemed safe.

- However, the main starter for the problem was that, to be a Euro member, there were a number of strict financial criteria involved to stop a unsound country bringing the project drown. Greece faked its eligibility for these criteria.

- Having faked their way in, Greece then borrowed money on the new credit terms of being a Eurozone member like mad. Unfortunately, Greece has an exceptionally deficient economy- mostly tourism dependant, lacking in decent exports and struggling hugely with tax corruption that erodes its income.

- After the banking crisis, loans became an issue for everyone, Several Euro countries got hit hard from being over-exposed. Portugal and Ireland are particular examples. They mostly survived via austerity policies which kept the confidence in them secure.

- Greece is not secure and spent far too long not implementing any sort of cutbacks due to over-generous pensions and the like (grand in theory- no good if you don';t actually have the money)

- Hence Greece got caught massively on the hop. At this point the Eurozone mechanism came in to try and save it. The problem is, this basically means the other Eurozone countries plunging giant loans in. This is greatly resistant by the electorate of those countries. For those playing the 'democracy' card, remember all these nations have voters too and further bailouts for Greece are not favoured.

- The problem is that Greece is no fundamentally economically buggered at this point that just pouring loans in won't do it. Greece needs fundamental economic reform, and it is at the point where its creditors, from the ECB to other Eurozone countries to the IMF, won't lend it any more unless it makes massive cuts and social changes. The Greek people are unwilling to do this (and voted out all previous government administrations in favour of a radical left-wing 'no more cuts' party to negotiate, who have totally failed thus far) and we are now at the final moment of the crisis point about who blinks first- either Greece takes the cuts or the Eurozone members forgive the debt.

- There is no possible connection between the US debt and Greece's. The US can go into debt all it likes- everyone has confidence that it will pay, it being a massive economic powerhouse. No-one has any confidence in Greece's ability to pay unless it makes those cuts. This is just a fact of life. No amount of voting or declarations of sovereignty makes any difference to the fact that no-one will lend to a bankrupt country.

- The 2 billion thing is indeed just the latest repayment- this one owed to the IMF. By missing the payment, Greece has become the first First-world country to miss an IMF payment. The total debt is in hundreds of billions.

- Countries go bankrupt, of course- look at Argentina, which almost makes a habit of it. But the kicker here is that Greece ins in the Eurozone- it's not meant to be possible for it to go bankrupt. If it had its own currency, it could just massively devalue and start again, but it can't do anything with the Euro as it is a shared currency. Of course, they should never have been in it in the first place, and the other Eurozone nations were fools to let them in. Nonetheless, the Eurozone acted in good faith.

- On a simple economic view, the loans to Greece should be cut as, basically, they can't pay. But politically this is impossible- Greece cannot be let off the hook if Ireland and Portugal had to do it the hard way, and furthermore, with such a precedent, any Euro country in future could just spend itself to oblivion and expect to be bailed out the same way; it would effectively kill the Euro. In any case, countries like Germany have no democratic mandate to let Greece off, particularly after Greece faked its way in. Germany has already written off as much of the debt as its electorate will allow (unsurprisingly, Germans are not thrilled at their tax dollars being used to bail out Greek corruption).

- So the main projected solution now is that Greece has to do what was meant to be impossible- leave the Euro and start again with its own currency. There's a tiny amount of time remaining for Greece instead to cave in and accept the cuts, but there's little political will for that.

The hardline Greek ruling party has called a referendum on the issue for this Sunday. This was a dumb move- it's taken the negotiating power out of their hands. The Greek party is scrambling to make last moment concessions, but the lenders can't do anything now but say "We can't make any deals until the referendum is done as you can't honour them unless you know the result". It was the worst possible time to call a referendum- the idea seemed to have been to intimidate the lenders into giving way, but that failed. If the Greek party cancels the referendum they might still strike a deal but that would be political suicide as well.

The OP's statement about leaving the EU is misleading- it's the membership fot he Euro that is the issue, ot the EU. The UK is an EU member but we never took the Euro as a currency, electing to keep the pound., And we would be laughing our asses off right now- as this kind of thing is one of the main reasons we never joined- except a tanking Europe is bad for us as well, so this probably just increases general Euroscepticism in the UK, which is a politically sensitive issue right now.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

The OP's statement about leaving the EU is misleading- it's the membership fot he Euro that is the issue, ot the EU.

Nah, not misleading. If asking for opinions is misleading. I didn't get the memo.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Who thinks they will be booted from EU and collapse after this latest shit storm of a almost $2 billion default.

Greece should become independent again. Just declare it's bankrupt, take those money-gambling-bastard-banks-companies with them, and start anew, without debts. Worked in the past for some countries, will work again. It's not like they will be bombed from earth, it's just money some people lose, and thus people gambled knowing they might lose some.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Greece should become independent again. Just declare it's bankrupt, take those money-gambling-bastard-banks-companies with them, and start anew, without debts. Worked in the past for some countries, will work again. It's not like they will be bombed from earth, it's just money some people lose, and thus people gambled knowing they might lose some.

Easiest thing to do with them is toss their corrupt central bank out and issue there own debt free currency.

Originally posted by jaden101
And yet the EU is telling them they're being irresponsible by NOT borrowing more. They're also complaining about the numbers of people wanting to vote in the Greek referendum. Democracy eh? Pfft. Getting in the way of capitalism. Terrible.

This sums it all up to be fair.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Nah, not misleading. If asking for opinions is misleading. I didn't get the memo.

It's misleading because leaving the EU is not on the table; by asking the question you were implying it was. You just mixed up EU and Eurozone is all.

And, again, if democracy is our yardstick, the European democratic consensus is against forgiving the debt. Greek sovereignty does not extend to the money of other countries.

Borrowing more money to service their debt is the only option to stay in the Euro (which is immensely desirable for Greece). If they make the cuts, it is sustainable in the long-term. If they don't, the consequences will be worse than the cuts.

Don't pity Greece. The U.S. is not far off from defaulting either. Only when it happens to us the consequences will be much worse than what Greece is going thru. Printing money like it grows on trees won't work anymore once the dollar loses it's status as world's reserve currency. Many countries are already moving away from the dollar because they no longer see it as the stable currency it use to be.


Inflation in U.S. is already bad enough. Unlike a few years ago, I'm basically living paycheck-to-paycheck barely able to keep my head above water. Seems like everytime I buy groceries that more and more food item packages are getting smaller and smaller while the price either remains the same or rises. Government lies and says that there is "no inflation". LMAO. Any fool who wasn't born yesterday can see thru the fact that it is just being covered up by making food items smaller. That's what happens (massive inflation) when you think you can print all the money you want with no consequences. America isn't immune to the basic rules of economics.


The U.S. probably has 5 years max before it happens and that is being overly optimistic.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Greece should become independent again. Just declare it's bankrupt, take those money-gambling-bastard-banks-companies with them, and start anew, without debts. Worked in the past for some countries, will work again. It's not like they will be bombed from earth, it's just money some people lose, and thus people gambled knowing they might lose some.

I like that Idea! Just take over and tell all your debtors that "I am sorry. It was the previous regime that owed you money. Not the Current Regime. If you wish to file a grievance about this we can send you said previous regime (Or whats left of them) and you can work it out with them.



I REALLY LIKE THIS IDEA!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Star428
Don't pity Greece. The U.S. is not far off from defaulting either. Only when it happens to us the consequences will be much worse than what Greece is going thru. Printing money like it grows on trees won't work anymore once the dollar loses it's status as world's reserve currency. Many countries are already moving away from the dollar because they no longer see it as the stable currency it use to be.


Inflation in U.S. is already bad enough. Unlike a few years ago, I'm basically living paycheck-to-paycheck barely able to keep my head above water. Seems like everytime I buy groceries that more and more food item packages are getting smaller and smaller while the price either remains the same or rises. Government lies and says that there is "no inflation". LMAO. Any fool who wasn't born yesterday can see thru the fact that it is just being covered up by making food items smaller. That's what happens (massive inflation) when you think you can print all the money you want with no consequences. America isn't immune to the basic rules of economics.


The U.S. probably has 5 years max before it happens and that is being overly optimistic.

As long as our omniscient government is in place with Obama at the helm, we should be ok right?

Sure. By the way Timmy... I got some Kansas Beach Front Property I want to show you.
I am sure you will want to get in on the time share properties there.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
I like that Idea! Just take over and tell all your debtors that "I am sorry. It was the previous regime that owed you money. Not the Current Regime. If you wish to file a grievance about this we can send you said previous regime (Or whats left of them) and you can work it out with them.



I REALLY LIKE THIS IDEA!!!!!!!

That doesn't work- if you are declared bankrupt, no-one will lend you money, which is a horrific position for a country. Blame the previous administration all you like- no-one will lend anyway.

And this is indeed the exact crisis Greece faces- being cut off from international finance. It's precisely what the Greek government is trying to avoid by striking a deal.

They retire at age 57....

This isnt just government/corps screwing people over but people bein genuinely lazy.

Originally posted by krisblaze
They retire at age 57....

This isnt just government/corps screwing people over but people bein genuinely lazy.
My parents lived in Greece for several years. They said the Greeks combine laziness, serial lateness, and a disregard for public and personal health and safety (smoking all the time, never wearing helmets when biking or on motorcycles)

Edit: I feel like when conservatives in the US decry "lazy liberals" and "welfare mothers" they're not really talking about actual Americans in any great number, just an imagined bane to America's economy, but many Greeks actually embody these tropes.

Originally posted by krisblaze
They retire at age 57....

This isnt just government/corps screwing people over but people bein genuinely lazy.

The U.S. probably has 5 years max before it happens and that is being overly optimistic.

That's probably what you said five years ago

As long as someone is dumb enough to keep buying our debt, we are going to keep incurring it. Consumer economy ftw!

Nah. We just won't answer the phone when the Debt Agencies start calling. That always fools em,.

Originally posted by krisblaze
They retire at age 57....

This isnt just government/corps screwing people over but people bein genuinely lazy.


This is true. I have 3 aunts living and staying in Greece. They are all permanent residents. Pension is quite high.

Surely life shouldn't be about working all the time for "owners".

So Greece voted no in the referendum. And the results were quite heavily in favour of the No Vote. When 2 hours before it was predicted to be a close 51% to 49% in favour of No. Quite a difference.

61.3% Voted no with 38.7% going to the yes vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33403665

A lot of different opinions coming from both sides.

Tsipras obviously still wants in on the EU and the Eurozone but many on the other side feel that this referendum was an insult to the creditors. And that we could be heading for a Grexit. That would mean a return to the Drachma. But Tsipras seems very adamant that he wants to stay within the EU and the Eurozone. Who knows what will happen now.

Tsipras is an idiot if he thought he could stay true to his supporters and stay in the Eurozone.

Greece should exit EU and return to their Drachma.

I'll fiddle while Greece burns. They really did a number.

Having kinda put the boot in earlier with the look at the situation, I think it's only fair to make sure there is some balance here, as it's not fair to portray the Greeks as terminally lazy. It's true that they have an absurdly generous early pensions system that, basically, the Government couldn't actually afford, which is an issue, and non-payment of taxes is certainly a big deal- though it's not Greece alone that has that issue; a lot of southern and eastern Europe has issues with the tax base.

But as I have seen pointed out of late, general populace tax evasion (as opposed to high level corporate versions we worry about in the west) is a natural reaction to corrupt government; decades of crappy communist rule caused the problem in Eastern Europe and Greece, likewise, has gone through generations of blatantly corrupt administrations gathering their own money and giving favours to friend and family. It wasn't even the most extreme of those corrupt governments that caused the current situation- of faking the figures needed to get into the Euro and then borrowing lie crazy on the false idea that they were now indestructible- but that a Greek government did something so nuts is,sadly, not exceptional.

So it's really not the average Greek in the street that is causing this issue. A generous public sector hamstrung Greece in many ways but it wouldn't have crippled it had the government not blown it for several decades in a row, culminating in this crisis. Little wonder the Greeks don't want to give up their perks for errors not of their own making (unless you count voting for parties as a form of responsibility- in which case, maybe, but I am unsure if they had not decent choices). Sadly, though, they probably don't have any choice in the matter.

And that's the problem with the current Greek administration too- basically promising things to the Greek people that just can't happen. Something is going to have to give.

The horrible irony here is that joining the Euro was meant to usher in a new era of stable government for Greece that would start to unwind generations of distrust that had eroded the tax base- but it has pretty much caused the opposite.

Update

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/business/international/deal-or-no-deal-greece-faces-a-difficult-aftermath.html?_r=0

I love me some socialism.

Honestly, the problem is that the current Greece government is doing the equivalent of saying everyone can go to the moon. "We voted for it" does not override reality.

They are promising a. to keep the generous social system b. to have the debts greatly reduced or cancelled and c. to stay in the Euro. Wanting all three is the mad promise of paradise- of course people want to vote for it, but it can't be done!

Something has to give. If it is by negotiation, it is a mix of a and b. Else, it will be c.

Interesting read. Sad but true.

http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media/

That's all very unlikely- literally nobody is winning out of this. Except maybe Russia.

-

Anyway, it looks like the Greeks are willing to compromise- their new proposal has given in on most areas. We may just get a deal at the weekend.

From what it sounds like, the new offer is harder on Greece than the original one that they rejected with their referendum. Talk about a backfire. Tspiras and his party are going down hard in the next election--hopefully they don't put Golden Dawn into power.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
The U.S is 20 Trillion in the hole and we don't seem to give a shit. Why should being broke bother Greece or the EU?


The situations are massively different. We have a healthy and growing economy. Healthy nations can handle debt-to-GDP ratios much bigger than ours- we aren't even at record levels, and Japan has around twice the debt-to-GDP ratio, and even so they're in no danger of default.

We could, fairly easily, raise taxes a little and start knocking the debt down in short order.

Anyone who thinks we're near defaulting doesn't get how our economy and debt works. It's not just 'having a big debt'. The only possible way we could default in the foreseeable future is if the Republican party decided to throw the economy off a cliff which would be extremely horrible for no gain whatsoever but some are so entrenched in misunderstanding how the debt works that they don't care.

Some economists actually think it should be higher, as it doubles as a stabilizing asset that gets traded, and interest rates are so low that people buying it are essentially paying us to hold their money. Which is... not a bad thing for us!


The Greeks, on the flip side, don't just need debt relief, or a little taxes, they need restructuring or it'll happen again. Their debt is of questionable value, they don't have the money generating mechanism that is the US, they haven't been cracking down on tax evasion, etc..

Originally posted by Omega Vision
My parents lived in Greece for several years. They said the Greeks combine laziness, serial lateness, and a disregard for public and personal health and safety (smoking all the time, never wearing helmets when biking or on motorcycles)

Edit: I feel like when conservatives in the US decry "lazy liberals" and "welfare mothers" they're not really talking about actual Americans in any great number, just an imagined bane to America's economy, but many Greeks actually embody these tropes.


The actual numbers of people on welfare are surprisingly impressive. Single-digit percentage of people in the system don't work or try and get work- and that includes people who due to injury are incapable of working, like the elderly and the badly injured. Something like one in twenty actually is just lazing on welfare, and trying to make more hoops to jump through to stop them actually negatively affects all those other people who are putting in the work.


The 'welfare queen' thing really is a boogieman much more than a reality in the US. If you dig, you can find them, but they're a small enough minority that it often costs more catching them than they receive anyway, so it's usually not worth the effort, and I mean not worth the effort entirely in the financial/money sense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33491776

Ok so now the problem is, the Greeks are suddenly offering so much, the rest of the Eurozone is not actually sure if they can believe it.