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Sidious is at his peak. All others are also at their peak, unless specified otherwise.

Setting: Toydaria

No amp/prep time.

How far does he get?


Warm-up: Orbalisk Bane and Zannah

1. Satele, Scourge and HoT
2. SoD Maul, Ulic and Wyyrlok
3. Dooku, Durron and Jaina
4. Cade, Mace and Nox
5. FE Malgus and Exar Kun
6. Revan and Krayt Reborn

Boss: *Talzin, *Gethzerion and Starkiller

* Talzin and Gethzerion get their Dathomir feats

...How far away does each match start?

Many of these, he really wants a Force Storm.

They start 100 feet apart.

Hmmm. Come to think of it, Sidious can get a Force Storm off against all of them. By Step 1: Run away. Sidious is significantly faster then every single being in the gauntlet. Step 2: Once you've got a mile or two between yourself and the enemy, start a Force Storm. Step 3: Profit.

He might clear doing that, since you need Force Light/Harmony to stop it. And only Jedi can perform that move. All the Sith/Dark Siders are useless at stopping storms. Even the 3 amigos that are the boss can't do a thing about the storms.

Run where? Isn't Toydaria made up of lakes of mud or something? I dunno if you could get anywhere fast in that.

The Force is his ally, and a powerful ally it is.

More practically, anything that slows him down slows the opponents down just as much...if not more...due to inferior Force Mastery.

Boss may be his only problem. However I believe he clears.

clears

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Hmmm. Come to think of it, Sidious can get a Force Storm off against all of them. By Step 1: Run away. Sidious is significantly faster then every single being in the gauntlet. Step 2: Once you've got a mile or two between yourself and the enemy, start a Force Storm. Step 3: Profit.


Sure.

Force speed isn't such a basic ability that it is available to pretty much every force user. Oh, wait. Actually, it is. So Sidious is going to "speed" nowhere.

That being said, I don't know if he can even make it through the warm-up.

He could feasibly clear, to be honest.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He could feasibly clear, to be honest.

And how so? Maybe you want to take a look at Darth Sidious field record, with a keen eye on all the fights he got into. He lost most of them. And there are multiple reasons for that fact.

He isn't an unbeatable force and lightsaber god, that can easily handle multiple opponents. Never was, never will be.

Yeah, that's why he geeked 3 masters in 60 seconds and threw a fight with Windu to get a new appentice. That's why he can raze whole starfleets with Force Storm. Etc.

This IS the #1 Sith in the mythos. Period.

Based on what did he lose most of his fights? He won all of them with Maul, he canonically won the one against Yoda (though it was due to weight and positioning more than raw power in most sources). He beat the Masters and intentionally lost to Mace, beat DE Luke, wrecked some other Masters in the Rebellion era, beat Maul and Savage together whilst enjoying himself...

He only lost one against DE Luke under circumstances. Even if you counted his loss to Mace, that's still not most of his fights.

The fact of matter is that Sidious's Force powers are planetary-class, his speed is the greatest in SW history save for Luke Skywalker, and his lightsaber skills would only be second to Luke and possibly Yoda.

Whether Sidious is unbeatable or not is an absolute red herring. It has no relevancy on whether or not he would pass the rounds.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Yeah, that's why he geeked 3 masters in 60 seconds


I'm wondering what you're talking about.



I've debunked that little theory the day the RotS DVD came out. That was, what, ten years ago? You see. In the RotS commentary, it is made pretty clear, that Sidious tries to kill Windu with his force lightning and utterly fails. So no "throwing the fight". He was losing it and he would have died there and then, if Anakin wasn't present to save the day.



Yes. "Force storms", that, according to his own words and the words of the creator of the story, he couldn't control completely. You may note how he failed to use one on Luke and Leia standing right in front of him. So what makes you think they are even an option for direct combat?



Ipsedixitism still doesn't win debates.

@SunRazer
Originally posted by SunRazer
Based on what did he lose most of his fights? He won all of them with Maul, he canonically won the one against Yoda (though it was due to weight and positioning more than raw power in most sources). He beat the Masters and intentionally lost to Mace, beat DE Luke, wrecked some other Masters in the Rebellion era, beat Maul and Savage together whilst enjoying himself...


When Maul first confronted him, his apprentice almost managed to cut him down. Mace defeated him - fact. Yoda was about to defeat him, when the Jedi master's luck went out. DE Luke managed to defeat him, Han Solo managed to shoot him. Darth Vader summersaulted him into the reactor shaft of the Death Star.

The only fight in which Sidious did shine was the confrontation with his former apprentice Maul and Savage. I give him that. But then, he was leagues above them in terms of force abilities and just managed to win due to the fact. And he doesn't exactly "outclass" (as in completely dwarfing them) many people on the gauntlet list.



The fact of matter is, that you don't have even the smallest bit of proof for any of your claims, with the exception of his "planetary-class" powers (with quite some more impressive demonstrations of force powers having happened in the SW Universe). Speed greater than all save for Luke Skywalker? Where does that nonsense come from? Lightsaber skills only second to Luke and Yoda? Seriously. The guy received nearly no formal lightsaber training by his own master (as mentioned in "Darth Plagueis", which means, he relies much on the force for his feats in the area. And that means, somebody with a greater focus on lightsaber training and closer to him in terms of force abilities than his two apprentices could take him out.

And that's not even thinking about throwing him into matches with several beings that are not exactly leagues below him in terms of force abilities. Exar Kun for example could possible take Sidious down in a 1 on 1.



Oh. It absolutely has. Because you need to overestimate him quite a bit to think he can clear this gauntlet. I don't see him making it past round 1 to be honest.

lmao

1. Nearly cutting him down according to his plan is not a loss, lmao. Maul realizes at the end that Sidious barely tapped into his own reserves whereas Maul was absolutely depleted. He lost. Did you even read the text?

2. DE Luke won when he was being aided by Leia's Force Harmony, great.

Han shot him when he was body was sabotaged and he was hardly in a condition to be doing anything, really. That wasn't a conventional contest in the slightest. If you're going to try and lowball, you'll have to do better than that. Not even going to address Vader lifting and throwing him.

3. Sidious also duels evenly with Yoda in some sources, and gets disarmed in a close fight in others.

4. Against an amped Mace and when he arguably gave up the fight, sure he lost. Also, why are you suggesting losses to these characters is poor on his part? You do realize that these are some of the best duelists in the mythos, yes?

5. His top-tier speed comes from repeatedly moving faster than a number of hypersonic-class characters (Maul, Anakin, etc.) can see. You do realize he holds back in a number of his fights, right?

6. Show me where it states he had no formal lightsaber training.

7. Overestimating a character has nothing to do with whether or not they're unbeatable, so yes, it's a red herring.

And no, I don't overestimate him.

Luke won their duel fair and square actually, Leia only helped when they needed to stop the Force storm.

Sidious clears with a glorious attitude.

Originally posted by Nai
I'm wondering what you're talking about.



I've debunked that little theory the day the RotS DVD came out. That was, what, ten years ago? You see. In the RotS commentary, it is made pretty clear, that Sidious tries to kill Windu with his force lightning and utterly fails. So no "throwing the fight". He was losing it and he would have died there and then, if Anakin wasn't present to save the day.



Yes. "Force storms", that, according to his own words and the words of the creator of the story, he couldn't control completely. You may note how he failed to use one on Luke and Leia standing right in front of him. So what makes you think they are even an option for direct combat?



Ipsedixitism still doesn't win debates.

@SunRazer


When Maul first confronted him, his apprentice almost managed to cut him down. Mace defeated him - fact. Yoda was about to defeat him, when the Jedi master's luck went out. DE Luke managed to defeat him, Han Solo managed to shoot him. Darth Vader summersaulted him into the reactor shaft of the Death Star.

The only fight in which Sidious did shine was the confrontation with his former apprentice Maul and Savage. I give him that. But then, he was leagues above them in terms of force abilities and just managed to win due to the fact. And he doesn't exactly "outclass" (as in completely dwarfing them) many people on the gauntlet list.



The fact of matter is, that you don't have even the smallest bit of proof for any of your claims, with the exception of his "planetary-class" powers (with quite some more impressive demonstrations of force powers having happened in the SW Universe). Speed greater than all save for Luke Skywalker? Where does that nonsense come from? Lightsaber skills only second to Luke and Yoda? Seriously. The guy received nearly no formal lightsaber training by his own master (as mentioned in "Darth Plagueis", which means, he relies much on the force for his feats in the area. And that means, somebody with a greater focus on lightsaber training and closer to him in terms of force abilities than his two apprentices could take him out.

And that's not even thinking about throwing him into matches with several beings that are not exactly leagues below him in terms of force abilities. Exar Kun for example could possible take Sidious down in a 1 on 1.



Oh. It absolutely has. Because you need to overestimate him quite a bit to think he can clear this gauntlet. I don't see him making it past round 1 to be honest.

The throwing of the fight, really is an undetermined answer. There is no right or wrong to it. There's evidence for both sides. Saying that Sidious tried to kill windu, could be describing what the scene looks like. Also,there is proof that the moment Aankain took off windus hand, Sidious relapsed his true power. As when Sidious was being shocked we don't see his skeleton as appose to when we see windu get shocked we see his skeleton. Also Sidious had opportunities that were painfully obvious that he could have killed windu of he wanted to.

He clears these scrubs.

Dead at warm up. As usual Nai is on point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dead at warm up.
lol no.

I think #5, #6 and boss are spectacular fights.


Originally posted by Nephthys
As usual Nai is on point.
Nai is a high point of these boards given his eloquence and sharp mind. Always a pleasure to see him in action.

Lol yes. Same scenario as the Plagueis thread. Sheev gets mentally attacked by Zannah and bumrushed by a pissed off Bane and can't defend himself against both at once. Bane and Zannah can beat almost any single combatant together.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane and Zannah can beat almost any single combatant together.
I have a feeling you were wise to use this quantifier. DE Sidious is beyond them.

Well obviously they can't beat Hord. Or the Father. Or Emperor Revan Ascendant. But pretty much anyone else? Fair game.

DE Sidious loses.

DE Sidious > Tulak mother****ing Hord

GG. uhuh

http://www.troll.me/images/you-shall-not-pass-gandalf/that-blasphemous-comment-shall-not-pass.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://www.troll.me/images/you-shall-not-pass-gandalf/that-blasphemous-comment-shall-not-pass.jpg
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130622093509/mlpfanart/images/3/30/480px-Troll_Face_Trollface.png

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol yes. Same scenario as the Plagueis thread. Sheev gets mentally attacked by Zannah and bumrushed by a pissed off Bane and can't defend himself against both at once. Bane and Zannah can beat almost any single combatant together. Unless Zannah's illusion proves ineffective...

I'm still stunned that people actually believe Bane's vulnerability to her illusions equates to everyone else's vulnerability.

Considering Bane's immense willpower, pretty much anyone would be. And as I've said in the past, they don't need to be as effected as him, just effected enough that they're in no shape to defend themselves properly.

Maybe Sidious won't be effected as strongly, but Zannah's attack won't be ineffective.

Sidious' willpower immensely surpasses Bane's, Sidious via willpower can drag his spirit through the galaxy and can pull himself out of the void, a feat accomplished by no other Dark Sider. It took the combined spirits of every Jedi that ever lived to stop him from doing so again, the most powerful wall of light ever.

Not sure about the boss, but he clears the rest.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sidious' willpower immensely surpasses Bane's, Sidious via willpower can drag his spirit through the galaxy and can pull himself out of the void, a feat accomplished by no other Dark Sider. It took the combined spirits of every Jedi that ever lived to stop him from doing so again, the most powerful wall of light ever.

I'm pretty sure that isn't his willpower, it's his mastery of spirit transference. And it didn't "take" every Jedi, every Jedi just insured that he couldn't return. Brand alone dragged his spirit into the depths of the Force.

And even so, so what? It's still an attack that will effect Sidious, distracting and slowing him enough that Bane can kill him in sabers. He's not brushing it off.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure that isn't his willpower, it's his mastery of spirit transference. And it didn't "take" every Jedi, every Jedi just insured that he couldn't return. Brand alone dragged his spirit into the depths of the Force.

Nah, Gamer #5:

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's not brushing it off.

You need to prove that it will be effective against Sheev.

Zannah's mental attacks aren't working period, Plagueis himself got nothing from a pre-TPM Sidious.

Bane also isn't nearly close enough to contend with Sidious' speed feats.

Retaining your identity after death is something countless Sith were capable of. Wookieepedia also says that he was helped in traversing the void by various sith spirits.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Zannah's mental attacks aren't working period, Plagueis himself got nothing from a pre-TPM Sidious.

Bane also isn't nearly close enough to contend with Sidious' speed feats.

Zannah uses sorcery, not telepathy.

When Sidious is debilitated by Zannah, he certainly is.

Wookieepedia has countless unsourced and incorrect statements.

His sheer will allowed him to return from the void, and that's all there is. Unless you have a source for his spiritual aid.

Also, Sidious prevented Plagueis from scanning his mind before the former even received training in the Force. Zannah's mental attacks don't compare to his mental willpower - she'll end up like the Iktotchi who failed to mind read Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah uses sorcery, not telepathy.

When Sidious is debilitated by Zannah, he certainly is. But most of them had nexuses of Force energy to sustain themselves, Sidious did not and yet still managed to rend the fabric of space and time, which is unprecedented.

Empire's End:

Sith spirit: Emperor of numerous worlds... Lord Vader's throne still remains empty. Have you now come to take his place and join us?

Palpatine: No! Not that... ...Your spirits guided me back to this life when I was destroyed by Vader... and his children... My aging clone body will soon die. I need healing... Now.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But most of them had nexuses of Force energy to sustain themselves, Sidious was left drifting in space, and still managed to rend the fabric of space, which is unprecedented.

And Sidious had spirits to give him sustenance. Rending space isn't a feat of willpower.

@Neph

I never stated otherwise.

No he certainly isn't.

By the way, Zannah actually needs to charge up Sorcery for a period of time to actually do anything to Sidious (or hope to). Otherwise she'll be mindcrushed, but it doesn't matter either way considering Sidious will just blitz her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Retaining your identity after death is something countless Sith were capable of. Wookieepedia also says that he was helped in traversing the void by various sith spirits.

I give you an actual source and its statement and you give me Wookieepedia. lol

The ancient Sith did render aid, but it was Sheev's will that kept his spectral shit together enough to cross space.

Anyway, where is your proof that Zannah's attacks will critically affect Sidious?

Pretty much.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I never stated otherwise.

No he certainly isn't.

Plagueis also lacks mental feats himself I believe.

The pain of Zannah's attack alone is massive and as Bane demonstrated the attack is incredibly debilitating. If Bane can't even stay standing, Sidious can't fight off a warrior like Bane with his orbalisk advantage.

Interesting approach.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The pain of Zannah's attack alone is massive and as Bane demonstrated the attack is incredibly debilitating.

Bane's weakness isn't necessarily Sheev's weakness. You need to actually prove that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Bane can't even stay standing, Sidious can't fight off a warrior like Bane with his orbalisk advantage.

Bane is the weakest of his order and Sidious is the strongest. Proof that an orbalisk advantage will significantly mitigate that disparity?

Lol Plagueis does not lack mental feats.

To Darth Bane it has such an effect, to the most powerful Sith Lord ever whom is magnitudes more powerful it will not.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol Plagueis does not lack mental feats.

To Darth Bane it has such an effect, to the most powerful Sith Lord ever whom is magnitudes more powerful it will not.

I like you.

Let's be friends?

Originally posted by SunRazer
By the way, Zannah actually needs to charge up Sorcery for a period of time to actually do anything to Sidious (or hope to). Otherwise she'll be mindcrushed, but it doesn't matter either way considering Sidious will just blitz her.

No, she doesn't. That's simply a lie that carthage insists of stating over and over. She needs no more charge up than any other Force attack.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I give you an actual source and its statement and you give me Wookieepedia. lol

The ancient Sith did render aid, but it was Sheev's will that kept his spectral shit together enough to cross space.

Anyway, where is your proof that Zannah's attacks will critically affect Sidious?

I gave you the source and statement too. Try reading a little more.

His will allowed him to retain his identity. Other sith spirits have crossed space. And I don't see why it would be any special feat of willpower leagues beyond Bane to do so.

Her attack on Bane is the proof, on top of Bane's numerous documented feats of immense willpower.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol Plagueis does not lack mental feats.

To Darth Bane it has such an effect, to the most powerful Sith Lord ever whom is magnitudes more powerful it will not.

Then post them.

Zannah's attack isn't a question of power, numbnuts.

Ah so basically you've admitted that your entire argument is a no limits fallacy then? My job is finished.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I like you.

Let's be friends?

The feeling is mutual.

All hail Ol' Sheev.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, she doesn't. That's simply a lie that carthage insists of stating over and over. She needs no more charge up than any other Force attack.
Proof?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ah so basically you've admitted that your entire argument is a no limits fallacy then? My job is finished.

Uh, no. Her technique is based on mental willpower and stability. This is stated in the book. I assumed you actually knew that before you claimed Sidious could defend against it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I gave you the source and statement too. Try reading a little more.

I read your post and addressed it: the ancient Sith did render aid {through knowledge} but it was Sheev's sheer force of will that enabled him to retain his identity enough to cross the gulf of space to Byss.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His will allowed him to retain his identity. Other sith spirits have crossed space. And I don't see why it would be any special feat of willpower leagues beyond Bane to do so.

Have other spirits crossed space through sheer will? What has been attributed to Bane comparable to that?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Her attack on Bane is the proof, on top of Bane's numerous documented feats of immense willpower.

Her attack on Bane isn't proof. Bane isn't Sheev. Bane's "numerous documented feats of immense willpower" {heretofore unattested} don't necessarily make him comparable {let alone superior} to Sheev with respect to willpower.

Zannah's never displayed any competent level of Sorcery against any respectable Force user without charging it up. She charged up against Bane in DoE, as I recall.

Yes but your entire claim is that because it defeats Bane's massively inferior willpower then it beats anyone's, hence your Bane & Zannah > any one person idiocy.

Sidious' force power directly effects his ability to maintain his willpower, that is basic Force augmentation. Bane isn't even on the same page as Sidious in terms of power, infact he isn't even in the same damn library.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Bane isn't even on the same page as Sidious in terms of power, infact he isn't even in the same damn library.
Bane is pretty much illiterate

BTW what stops Sidious from just blitzing Zannah at the start of a fight, so that her illusions won't even come into play.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The feeling is mutual.

All hail Ol' Sheev.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/darth/images/5/59/POWAHHH.jpg

indeed

Nothing, absolutely nothing, but watching Neph try to equate Bane with Sidious is amusing enough to allow the inane rabbling to continue.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have other spirits crossed space through sheer will? What has been attributed to Bane comparable to that?
Yes.

Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to sustain himself without a physical body and traverse space unaided (e.g. from planet Yavin IV to planet Ziost).

Right, but that's Vitiate, not Bane.

^^^

Darth Bane never had a chance, his spirit was banished into the void by Darth Zannah.

And I didn't ask if other Sith spirits crossed space. I asked if any did through sheer will.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Darth Bane never had a chance, his spirit was banished into the void by Darth Zannah.

Actually the novel seems to imply that Bane's spirit remained within Zannah, but then again, we see his spirit on Korriban as well during TCWS6.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And I didn't ask if other Sith spirits crossed space. I asked if any did through sheer will.
How else would they traverse space?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How else would they traverse space?

Teleportation? Ritual? Space-taxi? I dunno.

Look, I'm not debating 4 people at once. This is the last time I'm addressing you all.

@ Stigma

Originally posted by Stigma
Proof?

Every single time she's used it.

"Zannah shook her elbow free of Cyndra's grasp and raised her shackled hands before her face. Weaving her ringers in a complex pattern in the air, she reached out with the Force and plunged deep inside the Chiss woman's mind to find her secret, most primal fears. Buried in her subconscious were nameless horrors: abominations and creatures of nightmare never meant to see the light of day. Drawing on the power of Sith sorcery, Zannah plucked them out and brought them to life one by one.

The entire process took less than a second."

"The big man hesitated, casting a quick glance over toward the others to see what had happened. Seizing the opportunity, Zannah's fingers flickered in strange patterns as she unleashed her Sith sorcery at her foe."

"Zannah stepped forward and snapped her foot straight up, catching Set under the chin. He staggered back howling in pain while a string of unintelligible profanities spewed from his mouth, along with a spatter of blood.

"Do you yield?" Zannah asked.

His only response was to spit a gob of blood onto the expensive carpet at his feet and rush forward once more.

Zannah felt a small twinge of disappointment. She had hoped he would be smart enough not to continue a battle he could not win. Another lesson I will have to teach you.

As he drew near, she responded not with physical violence, but rather with a powerful spell of Sith sorcery that attacked Set's mind."

"Opening herself up to the power of the dark side, Zannah reached out and touched the mind of her Master."

Never does she require any more concentration and time than a standard Force push.

@ Tempest

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I read your post and addressed it: the ancient Sith did render aid {through knowledge} but it was Sheev's sheer force of will that enabled him to retain his identity enough to cross the gulf of space to Byss.

No, Sidious directly states that they guided him back to life. What knowledge do you think they gave him?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have other spirits crossed space through sheer will? What has been attributed to Bane comparable to that?

Sidious didn't cross the space through sheer will, he retained his identity and he had aid from various Sith spirits. The very fact that they were able to help him while he was out there demonstrates that they could also do it, does it not?

Also didn't Sidious cross space using his wormholes or by rending space of something? If so it's not like he had to retain his identity for that long.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Her attack on Bane isn't proof. Bane isn't Sheev. Bane's "numerous documented feats of immense willpower" {heretofore unattested} don't necessarily make him comparable {let alone superior} to Sheev with respect to willpower.

**** off, you've seen Bane's feats of willpower. I don't need to post them again. Saying they're unattested is just disingenuous BS and you know it. I turn this back on you. Sheev is not Bane. One single feat mired in supposition and done with aid doesn't necessarily mean he can perform much better than Bane did. Why is preserving his identity in the void that much more impressive than everything Bane's done?

@ Sunrazer

Originally posted by SunRazer
Zannah's never displayed any competent level of Sorcery against any respectable Force user without charging it up. She charged up against Bane in DoE, as I recall.

She wanted to charge it up, but she also said that if she was heavily pressed in saber's she'd have to break off doing that to defend herself. Which happened when she tripped on the grave.

@ AP

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes but your entire claim is that because it defeats Bane's massively inferior willpower then it beats anyone's, hence your Bane & Zannah > any one person idiocy.

Sidious' force power directly effects his ability to maintain his willpower, that is basic Force augmentation. Bane isn't even on the same page as Sidious in terms of power, infact he isn't even in the same damn library.

Bane's willpower isn't massively inferior. Thus far no-one has posted any feats that eclipse Bane. Surviving the void with the help of sith spirits isn't good enough. Meetra has also survived immense mental discomfort and Bane has similarly shown a diamond-hard mind that allowed him to perform massive feats of willpower against staggering adversity. And you're off the mark with my claim. Zannah's attack didn't defeat Bane's willpower. He overcame it. My point was that even in overcoming it he was massively debilitated and forced to his knee's. If anyone was effected even half as badly as Bane was, they're in no shape to defend against a warrior like Orb Bane bullrushing them in sabers.

What the dick are you talking about? There's no way to augment your willpower with the Force. This is nonsense and naked Sidious wank.

LOL, tbh. Then again, not even sure if Zannah's combat spells can even affect someone that much more powerful than she is, I.E Sidious or Vitiate.

So angry. ermm

The Force allows one to maintain mental stability/strength and always has, what bad pharmaceuticals have you two been digesting?

If one's strength in the Force translated to great willpower, then Nihilus wouldn't be having half the troubles he does.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Look, I'm not debating 4 people at once. This is the last time I'm addressing you all. That's what you get for making silly arguments. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/922207309.gifOriginally posted by Nephthys
And Sidious had spirits to give him sustenance. Rending space isn't a feat of willpower. And yet is stated to be by canon sources. Your inferring that the aid offered by the spirits meant Sidious didn't have to exert himself, but that inference has been proven false.

It is evident that it required a great amount of willpower regardless.Originally posted by Nephthys
What the dick are you talking about? There's no way to augment your willpower with the Force. This is nonsense and naked Sidious wank.

Then what makes Force sensitives naturally resistant to mind tricks?Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How else would they traverse space? Power? Vitiate has just glutted himself on a massive dark side nexus and a planetary conflict's worth of death. Sidious at the point of death had no such sources of power, and was presumably weakened by his demise. In that way his feat remains unprecedented.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Nearly cutting him down according to his plan is not a loss, lmao. Maul realizes at the end that Sidious barely tapped into his own reserves whereas Maul was absolutely depleted. He lost. Did you even read the text?


Yes. Maul was absolutely depleted - from weeks without sleep being hunted over the surface of some planets of the charts while being wounded. He still mustered enough hatred to place strikes on Sidious that his master "barely" managed to deflect. Even in their Clone Wars duel, Sidious uses his superior command of the force to defeat his former apprentice, instead of outduelling him.



Apparently, you don't see the point. Luke needed Leia's help, because he was still a compareably inexperienced force user. Luke from the "Black Fleet" Trilogy on could probably defeat Sidious on his own. The same is the case with a rather long list of characters that, while they might lack Sidious' proficiency in the force, are rather more focused on everything related to combat than he is. There is a reason why the Official Star Wars Fact File calls Exar Kun the most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords.



Sidious does profit from the fighting areal from the point he moves to the Senate pod. Apparently, despite of that, he still manages to lose his weapon and also - quite visible - was about to lose the final force contest, before the energy exploded between him and Yoda.

Now keep that in mind, and take a look back at the bigger picture, where the force was out of balance and Sidious did profit from that in every single fight with a light side user. Then go on and try to figure out what would happen, if that advantage was suddenly missing. And after that, take another look at the gauntlet list again.



An amped Mace?
Apparently, some people here are forgetting the fact, that the entire PT era is overshadowed by the Dark Side of the force holding the supremacy, deminishing the abilities of the Jedi in the era. Despite of that Sidious is barely able to survive Yoda and is incapable of defeating Mace. And, no, there is no "argument" that he gave up the fight. He was disarmed, he couldn't destroy Mace by using "all he could" with his force lightning. He lost. Accept it, move on.



You do realize, that there is a plethora of characters in the mythos with similar speed feats? Mace would be one, Kar Vastor - capable of matching speed with Mace - would be the next. Yoda, of course. Darth Bane, who even in his apprentice days could move so fast, that time seemed to stop for everyone else watching him. Even Luke in "Shadows of the Empire" (between ESB and ROTJ) managed a speed feat like that against a superhuman cyborg specifically designed to kill people. So?



I said "nearly no" formal training. It's said multiple times in the story, that Plagueis was extremely reluctant to utilize the weapon. Then the training Sidious does receive is mostly dealing with defense against opponents using firearms against him, as Plaguies considered those the main threat in the modern day Galaxy. And I'm not saying that Sidious lacks finesse or skill with the weapon, but he is clearly no "duelling geek" like Dooku or Kas'im.