Exar Kun vs. Palpatine

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The Merchant
Who wins? This is ROTS Palpatine when he fought Yoda, except instead of Yoda Exar Kun waltzes in.

SunRazer
Palpatine turns Kun into a blind, deaf, mute and quadriplegic slave.

ILS
The most powerful Sith in history wins.

EmperorSidious2
Palpatine

Sinious
Originally posted by ILS
The most powerful Sith in history wins.

Angelalex242
Sidious has no problems here.

The Merchant
Originally posted by ILS
The most powerful Sith in history wins.

So Kun right?

ILS
Yes smile

AncientPower
Sidious in a good fight.

Q99
See result of Krayt vs Palpatine fight.


Sidious will certainly have to take Kun seriously, but, taking him seriously, and not making any foolish mistakes, he's got the across the board edge.

If he fought sloppy an upset is possible, but he's also too smart to treat someone of Exar's level as an excuse to have fun.

Stigma
Palpatine 10/10.

Nai
Is it out of fashion to deliver reasons and arguments in a discussion or do you people just become more stupid every time I visit this place and this is all you can do? roll eyes (sarcastic)

And of course Kun wins. Reasons:

more force powers useable in combat
great force defense (that allowed him to tank a Wall of Light attack, the most devastating offensive move the light side has to offer)
amulets that do boost his abilities and can fire rather large and rather deadly beams
potentially greater Sith knowledge than Sidious himself ("more knowledge, than he could ever use"wink
unique lightsaber (short hilted double blade) with likewise unique fighting style


What does Sidious have to offer?

ILS
Exar wins via reasons

Trocity
Originally posted by Nai
And of course Kun wins. Reasons:

more force powers useable in combat

Lol what? Amulet blasts are the only combat-related force power he's displayed that Palpatine can't also use, and he never even uses them in a combat scenario...


Originally posted by Nai great force defense

That didn't stop him from getting temporarily put on his ass by Odan-Urr, someone far, far less powerful than Palpatine...


Originally posted by Nai amulets that do boost his abilities and can fire rather large and rather deadly beams

I think we're all aware of this, doesn't give him the win though.


Originally posted by Nai potentially greater Sith knowledge than Sidious himself

No.



Originally posted by Nai unique lightsaber (short hilted double blade) with likewise unique fighting style

Yes he does, it's a shame that Palpatine is a more skilled duelist, a master of all 7 lightsaber forms, and far faster than Kun.


Originally posted by Nai What does Sidious have to offer?


A lot more than Exar Kun, who happens to be my favorite Sith Lord.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Nai
Is it out of fashion to deliver reasons and arguments in a discussion or do you people just become more stupid every time I visit this place and this is all you can do? roll eyes (sarcastic)

And of course Kun wins. Reasons:

more force powers useable in combat
great force defense (that allowed him to tank a Wall of Light attack, the most devastating offensive move the light side has to offer)
amulets that do boost his abilities and can fire rather large and rather deadly beams
potentially greater Sith knowledge than Sidious himself ("more knowledge, than he could ever use"wink
unique lightsaber (short hilted double blade) with likewise unique fighting style


What does Sidious have to offer?

Well of this,is,DE Sidious than Kun definitly doesn't have a chance. All that you listed are advantages not things that go into an automatic win. Sidious may actually have the greater knowledge of the two due to him being much older and also had access to,27,000 years worth of Jedi holocrons to go over and I believe it's known he has a comprehension of all known Sith abilities. He may have great force defenses however what makes you think palpatine can't break through them. His lightsaber maybe unique but Sidious is way to smart and way to talented for that to be a way for Kun to win.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Nai
Is it out of fashion to deliver reasons and arguments in a discussion or do you people just become more stupid every time I visit this place and this is all you can do? roll eyes (sarcastic)

And of course Kun wins. Reasons:

more force powers useable in combat
great force defense (that allowed him to tank a Wall of Light attack, the most devastating offensive move the light side has to offer)
amulets that do boost his abilities and can fire rather large and rather deadly beams
potentially greater Sith knowledge than Sidious himself ("more knowledge, than he could ever use"wink
unique lightsaber (short hilted double blade) with likewise unique fighting style


What does Sidious have to offer?

Well Sidious actally is confirmed to have mastered all abilities of the dark side by ROTS and makes up abilities as his pleasure showing he most likely has the knowledge. Sidiosu lightning was capable of bending the hilt of Windus lightsaber back to windu. Sidious,stalemated yoda someone who is defiantly above Kun. Has controlled several senate pods at once. Almost broke yodas tutamins. Kung weapon is more of an advantage than a win. Even that advantage at the most I would say would sat aged Sidious however he is way to smart for what he can bring. His force defenses while powerful doesn't necessarily mean they can block palpatine forever. Palpatine is defiantly the most skilled and experienced of the two. He has knowledge of Sith sorcery so he can't just devastate his mind with it. I can see Sidious being much faster than Kun as he was described to be fading in and out of existence with his own natural power. Dooku or Vader were both afraid to take him own by themselves and both are among the best of all time in both the force and lightsaber combat. So with all of that Kun while he doesn't just get crushed he gets efficiently beaten 8/10 times.

The_Tempest
It's ROTS Sidious per the OP.

Sheev takes it with moderate difficulty.

Sinious
Originally posted by Nai
Is it out of fashion to deliver reasons and arguments in a discussion or do you people just become more stupid every time I visit this place and this is all you can do? roll eyes (sarcastic)

And of course Kun wins. Reasons:

more force powers useable in combat
great force defense (that allowed him to tank a Wall of Light attack, the most devastating offensive move the light side has to offer)
amulets that do boost his abilities and can fire rather large and rather deadly beams
potentially greater Sith knowledge than Sidious himself ("more knowledge, than he could ever use"wink
unique lightsaber (short hilted double blade) with likewise unique fighting style


What does Sidious have to offer?

Are you trying to bring these forums back to life or do you actually think Kun wins this?

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's ROTS Sidious per the OP.

Sheev takes it with moderate difficulty.

I fixed it.

The_Tempest
I see you're still dueling Quanchi in the Movie forum.

Nai
Originally posted by Trocity
Lol what? Amulet blasts are the only combat-related force power he's displayed that Palpatine can't also use, and he never even uses them in a combat scenario...


Erm. What?
So...the fight against a giant Sith Wyrm isn't "combat related" and neither is walking up to Aleema Keto and blasting her across the room? Nice to hear that, pal.

That aside, you may have forgotten the fact, that Kun did kill Odan-Urr with a single force attack, a thousand year old Jedi Master that fought Ancient Sith in direct combat. You also, apparently, have forgotten the fact that Kun's spirit managed to turn one of Luke's students into a charred skeleton and was capable of using a force technique that drove Luke's spirit out of his body.

Compared to that, RotS Sidious has TK and force lightning. I wonder how that would help him against Kun, equipped with amulets explicitly stated to boost his TK abilities and a force defense capable of resisting the Wall of Light attack. You tell me.



I wonder where you get the idea from, that Odan-Urr is "far far less powerful" than Sidious. Any canon source stating that? Nope. Okay. So we have your speculation about the relative powerlevels of the two characters. Given that Odan-Urr is still 1,000 years old, I wonder why "age" is an argument for Sidious against Kun, but can be ignored when comparing Sidious to Odan-Urr. The same Odan-Urr that founded the great library on Ossus and was dwelling in the centre of Jedi knowledge for a millenium.



Given that precisely nobody managed to do anything against those beams, I wonder what Sidious is going to do if Exar Kun walks into his office and, instead of delivering a force push like Yoda, he decides to fire an amulet blast.



Thank you for putting my argument into question in such a thoroughly fashion.
Kun, according to DLotS had "more knowledge than he could ever use", including - but not limited to - the complete knowledge of Naga Sadow. I may point out that this knowledge was considered "too dangerous" by Sidious himself to share it with anybody or make extensive use of it himself (The Essential Guide through the Force). The very same source of knowledge would, if we believe Nadd's word on the issue, have enabled Kun to create a new body for the deceased Sith Lord. It did enable him to drain every living Massassi on Yavin 4 and seperate his spirit from his body. An action that, if it weren't for the intervention of the entire Jedi Order would have enabled him to run rampant through the Galaxy.

Sidious compares how exactly?



It's a shame that you haven't got a single ounce of proof for any of the claims you make.



Of course. Hence your inability to form a reasonable argument and your lack of knowledge regarding Kun. Weeee.

@EmperorSidious2
Your posting style gives me instant headache.

@Sinious


Given that Kevin J. Anderson, the creator of Kun, couldn't say whether Kun or DE Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord, I guess that RotS Sidious is no match for Kun. Especially not, when DE Sidious claims himself, that he has become significantly more powerful than his RotJ counterpart who already had two decades more experience than his RotS self. You disagree?

Sinious
Originally posted by Nai


@Sinious


Given that Kevin J. Anderson, the creator of Kun, couldn't say whether Kun or DE Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord, I guess that RotS Sidious is no match for Kun. Especially not, when DE Sidious claims himself, that he has become significantly more powerful than his RotJ counterpart who already had two decades more experience than his RotS self. You disagree?

I don't think that is exactly what he said. Can you share the quote to refresh my memory?

Also, I hear that guy isn't a very reliable source.

Not to mention Sidious even as of ROTS surpasses Kun in showings by a margin.

SunRazer
lol Kevin's unofficial opinion is irrelevant when we have a myriad of canonical (to Legends, at least) sources proclaiming Palpatine even as of RotS as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Kun had one to contradict that back in 2002/2004 or something, and Palpatine has had many quotes to establish his superiority since.

Sinious
I assumed he was trying to make a case for spirit Kun tbh.

SunRazer
Palpatine's quotes apply to spirit Kun as well.

Sinious
Does it apply to Sith that came after Sidious?

SunRazer
If you mean in-universe chronology, as in Krayt and Caedus, then obviously yes.

As for out-of-universe dates, as with Vitiate, frankly, yes. I know it sparks debate about how it couldn't have possibly included Vitiate since people didn't know Vitiate would be created when they wrote the quote etc. - which is fine, but Palpatine is an exception. He's had numerous quotes confirming his superiority over all other Sith throughout the decades - he's basically always been number 1, and to me it's safe to say that it's not going to change unless we have an explicit retcon detailing Vitiate's superiority. Otherwise, the creation of every new character simply follows the laws that have been previously set - in this case, being less powerful than Palpatine.

Sinious
Nah, I was talking about in-universe chronology.

SunRazer
Well, the ones that say "in history" come from sources that depict post-Palpatine events as well, so it refers to every Sith in history.

Sinious
I'm pretty sure some people would disagree with that.

I have no objections though. big grin

SunRazer
Well, people have objections with everything. Not that I care, though.

Nai
Originally posted by SunRazer
lol Kevin's unofficial opinion is irrelevant when we have a myriad of canonical (to Legends, at least) sources proclaiming Palpatine even as of RotS as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Kun had one to contradict that back in 2002/2004 or something, and Palpatine has had many quotes to establish his superiority since.

Excuse me.

The "myriad of canonical sources" you're talking about boils down to:


the personal opinion of a historian, with an unclear reference to Sidious power (political? force?) in the "New Essential Chronology".
the personal opinion of Darth Vader with a clear reference to Sidious political and military power in a Visual Guide.


That's it. In turn, you have The Official Star Wars Fact File labeling Kun the "most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lord". When it comes to "definite statements", Kun wins this hands down.



What?

So, by nothing more than you saying so, Sidious is now "an exception" to common sense and logic? Really? I didn't expect much, but this is you limbo dancing your way under the lowest of thresholds in terms of reasonable thinking.

SunRazer
And also "The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia", which is an objective third-person viewpoint, and comes after the Fact File, and yes, it includes Exar Kun.

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides."

Don't tell me about common sense and logic if you're outright ignoring sources. Sidious having a mere two sources to confirm his superiority is absolutely laughable.

Fated Xtasy
Nai, how would you compare them in dueling prowess? I personally have Sidious winning this fight based on his Lightsaber accomplishments. But i want to get your view on things, if you don't mind that is.

SunRazer
Nai thinks Sidious has no dueling feats worth mentioning (other than Vs Maul and Savage which he attributes mostly to Force Power), so it's obvious Kun stomps to him.

Nai
Originally posted by SunRazer
And also "The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia", which is an objective third-person viewpoint, and comes after the Fact File, and yes, it includes Exar Kun.

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides."

Don't tell me about common sense and logic if you're outright ignoring sources. Sidious having a mere two sources to confirm his superiority is absolutely laughable.

Do I miss something, that states Yoda and Sidious are the most powerful practicioners of the force in history or is that simply no part of the statement? I know that they are in their respective time and that quote tells us nothing else.

And stop attempting to worm yourself out of the dead end you've reached: First, I didn't "ignore" sources. You simple not managed to introduce them to the discussion. Your fault. This also applies to the rest of the "myriad of sources" that proclaim Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, with a clear reference to his force abilities. Bring them or shut up.

Second, this has to do nothing with you attempting to defeat reason, logic and common sense with ipsedixitism. "There is a rule that Sidious is the most powerful, that I just made up. So he is! I win." And you dare to call anything "laughable"? Pff.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nai
Is it out of fashion to deliver reasons and arguments in a discussion or do you people just become more stupid every time I visit this place and this is all you can do? roll eyes (sarcastic)ermno expressionThey had better be good. laughing out loudCare to elaborate? The only (effective) Force power Exar Kun has that Sidious doesn't is the Force Blast, however he is more than capable of not only replicating but surpassing it's destructive effects with Force Lightning.Why should that matter, when Sidious' Force defenses are logically superior?Yet not above Sidious' natural ability.Is that quote supposed to be proof of your claim? I'm finding in inadequate.

And what exactly will this vast knowledge of the dark side bring to their engagement?
Unique =/= superior. Sidious was able to stalemate with the unique and incredibly advanced fighting style of Mace Windu, and fought toe-to-toe with Yoda, regarded as perhaps the greatest lightsaber duelist in mythos, what does Exar Kun have on these individuals?
Superior speed, strength and agility, more potent Force powers and superior swordsmanship my friend.

i.e. he is his better in every conceivable way.Originally posted by Nai
Excuse me.

The "myriad of canonical sources" you're talking about boils down to:

the personal opinion of a historian, with an unclear reference to Sidious power (political? force?) in the "New Essential Chronology".
the personal opinion of Darth Vader with a clear reference to Sidious political and military power in a Visual Guide.

That's it. In turn, you have The Official Star Wars Fact File labeling Kun the "most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lord". When it comes to "definite statements", Kun wins this hands down.You seem to be a little behind on your reading, allow me to rectify that:
Those are two of many objective sources on Sidious' superiority over Exar Kun.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Nai
Erm. What?
So...the fight against a giant Sith Wyrm isn't "combat related" and neither is walking up to Aleema Keto and blasting her across the room? Nice to hear that, pal.

That aside, you may have forgotten the fact, that Kun did kill Odan-Urr with a single force attack, a thousand year old Jedi Master that fought Ancient Sith in direct combat. You also, apparently, have forgotten the fact that Kun's spirit managed to turn one of Luke's students into a charred skeleton and was capable of using a force technique that drove Luke's spirit out of his body.

Compared to that, RotS Sidious has TK and force lightning. I wonder how that would help him against Kun, equipped with amulets explicitly stated to boost his TK abilities and a force defense capable of resisting the Wall of Light attack. You tell me.



I wonder where you get the idea from, that Odan-Urr is "far far less powerful" than Sidious. Any canon source stating that? Nope. Okay. So we have your speculation about the relative powerlevels of the two characters. Given that Odan-Urr is still 1,000 years old, I wonder why "age" is an argument for Sidious against Kun, but can be ignored when comparing Sidious to Odan-Urr. The same Odan-Urr that founded the great library on Ossus and was dwelling in the centre of Jedi knowledge for a millenium.



Given that precisely nobody managed to do anything against those beams, I wonder what Sidious is going to do if Exar Kun walks into his office and, instead of delivering a force push like Yoda, he decides to fire an amulet blast.



Thank you for putting my argument into question in such a thoroughly fashion.
Kun, according to DLotS had "more knowledge than he could ever use", including - but not limited to - the complete knowledge of Naga Sadow. I may point out that this knowledge was considered "too dangerous" by Sidious himself to share it with anybody or make extensive use of it himself (The Essential Guide through the Force). The very same source of knowledge would, if we believe Nadd's word on the issue, have enabled Kun to create a new body for the deceased Sith Lord. It did enable him to drain every living Massassi on Yavin 4 and seperate his spirit from his body. An action that, if it weren't for the intervention of the entire Jedi Order would have enabled him to run rampant through the Galaxy.

Sidious compares how exactly?



It's a shame that you haven't got a single ounce of proof for any of the claims you make.



Of course. Hence your inability to form a reasonable argument and your lack of knowledge regarding Kun. Weeee.

@EmperorSidious2
Your posting style gives me instant headache.

@Sinious


Given that Kevin J. Anderson, the creator of Kun, couldn't say whether Kun or DE Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord, I guess that RotS Sidious is no match for Kun. Especially not, when DE Sidious claims himself, that he has become significantly more powerful than his RotJ counterpart who already had two decades more experience than his RotS self. You disagree?


Basically all that you posted were advantages that can be overcome. Sidious I believe has more experience as he is older and has a knowledge of all known Sith Abilites as of ROTS and makes up new ones to his pleasure.

Dooku one of the most powerful force weilders in the Star Wars universe were afraid to go up against him by himself.

Sidious is no doubt the better lightsaber duelist of the two. He was able to stalemate yoda, stalemate mace windu, beat maul and savage at one time while not even trying, speed blitzed 3 highly skilled Jedi council masters, knows every form of lightsaber combat and many other examples.

In terms of the force. I don't see Kuns sorcery to be a deal breaker against Sidious as it can be defended against. His blast are his most aggressive powers I assume. This is a very powerful ability capable of killing spirits however I'm not sure how Sidious would react to this whether by dodging or possibly using tutamins.

His weapon is more of an advantage that can be overcome as ulic was able to at least contend or stalemate Kun when he fought with a single blade. However while I know he will be fighting with his double blades Sidious has knowledge of the double bladed lightsaber and also uses jar Kai so I don't see that being something that will save him.

The_Tempest
@SunRazer

{The three sources in question, off the top of my head}

Vader: The Ultimate Guide:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/ sidious%20most%20powerful%20vader%20ultimate%20gui
de_zpsdjh7abwc.png

Can't get this one to format properly.

Star Wars Insider #86:

http://i.imgur.com/Vc7T8ZN.jpg

"Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals":

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Sidious%20most%20powerful%20sith_zps9lxqiwb3.png

SunRazer

SunRazer
@Beni @Tempest

Yeah, we all seemed to post the sources at once lol

The_Tempest
Yeah but mine are actually screen-caps, so they're cooler. uhuh

SunRazer
lol I'm not bothered to scan.

And also:

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary

SunRazer

The_Tempest
I've wiped my ignore list: Nai versus The Royal Guard should be most intriguing. excellent

SunRazer
Thanks for the Grand Admiral quote Tempest.

The_Tempest
yw

I like that one because, much like the Insider one about Yoda, it's an out-of-universe declaration.

Beniboybling
thumb up To all.

SunRazer
Originally posted by The_Tempest
yw

I like that one because, much like the Insider one about Yoda, it's an out-of-universe declaration.

Indeed. And the DE ones, even though people complain about them being outdated.

Beniboybling
I think the majority of these quotes are post-Exar Kun anyway.

SunRazer
Yeah, they are. And the one quote about Kun being the most powerful was retconned by TCSWE, so that was some pretty solid double-standards going on.

Nargaroth

SunRazer
Your link is a 404, Nagaroth.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by SunRazer
Your link is a 404, Nagaroth.

Should work now.

SunRazer
Got the quote anyway, it's about Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma needing artifacts to perform their feats, yes?

Nargaroth
Originally posted by SunRazer
Got the quote anyway, it's about Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma needing artifacts to perform their feats, yes?

Yes. Damn, the link has stopped working. Check the quote here:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/zapan87/images/

Nai
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Nai, how would you compare them in dueling prowess? I personally have Sidious winning this fight based on his Lightsaber accomplishments. But i want to get your view on things, if you don't mind that is.

What lightsaber accomplishments exactly?

I don't see many "lightsaber based" feats for Sidious.

His fight against Maul and Savage is certainly impressive. Yet, he defeats them with pretty much force powers only, instead of outduelling hin. Sure. He was capable of holding his own against the duo, but so was Obi-Wan Kenobi.

When he manages to defeat the three masters coming to arrest him, he probably hindered them through the force, disabling their defense. In the RotS novel, he outright distracts them before starting a concealed attack, in the movie, they don't move at all, despite Sidious making a comment after igniting his lightsaber, which kind of overwrites that idea that he "blitzed" them.

Then he fights Mace, and is disarmed. "Wins" through the intervention of Anakin. And it's made pretty obvious, that he couldn't overcome the swordplay of Windu before. Now you may want to consider, that Mace, quite clearly, is no match for Sidious in terms of force abilities. He just manages to overcome the Sith Lord with pure fighting skill and a unique ability (Shatterpoint), but even his skill alone was enough to reach a stalemate with the Sith Lord. Now imagine what would happen if somebody closer to Sidious in terms of power and with a better lightsaber skill faces the Sith Lord.

Or stop imagining this, because we know what happend from his fight with Yoda. Despite constantly fighting from a position of advantage, Sidious - if we can trust the RotS script - is disarmed by the Jedi Master in less than a minute. And if that is the case, Yoda is head and shoulders above Sidious when it comes to lightsaber fights.

Then you need to consider the fact, that Sidious did never focus on "direct combat". He's the epitome of cunning, stealth and manipulation, but clearly not the type of character that seeks direct combat. Instead, he tries to avoid it whenever he can. Unlike Kun, who is shown to focus on nothing but superiority in combat through the entirety of his career, starting with his sparing fight against Vodo, continueing in his duel with Ulic and ending with the defeat of his master in a lightsaber duel.

So one might ask, who is better suited for a lightsaber duel. The guy who focused on the discipline, even going so far, that he came up with a unique weapon and a unique fighting style to use it or the guy that saw direct combat as a matter of last resort? If Sidious has to deal with an opponent that he doesn't eclipse in terms of force powers, I don't see him winning a lightsaber duel, since he relies so much on the force instead of just "technique" - and I'm rather certain, that Exar Kun is more in a league with Sidious than Mace Windu was, when it comes to force powers - while probably having a similar talent for bladework in comparison to Mace (a view that can be questioned of course).


@SunRazer


The collective message is not, that Sidious is and will always be the most powerful Sith, no matter how many new characters are invented. This was what you claimed. I accept your concession. Now to your "proof".



I wonder since when the personal views of Daniel Wallace are canon. Did I miss something? The article explores the creation of the Jedi Master and doesn't deal with in-universe phenomena. Pretty worthless, as far as this debate goes, because it's not "out of universe", as some people so happily mentioned - it's also out of canon.



The endnotes are a representation of the view of Kevin J. Anderson / Tom Veitch. If the input of authors to the debate is questionable, then this should be ignored as much as Anderson stating that Kun or DE Sidious is the most powerful Sith. If not, the latter statement also needs consideration. Your choice.



I've said it multiple times before: The Dark Side Sourcebook is one of the oldest sources in the history of SW canon and predates pretty much all other Sith Lords, save for Sidous and Vader themselves. Logically, none of its content can be extended over the canon as we have it today. Back then, this statement for Sidious would obviously be true, since the only other Dark Sider we knew - Qel-Droma aside - was Vader.



"Vader imagined" as beginning coins the entirety of the statement as part of Vader's thoughts. Furthermore, Vader thinking about "power that could be his" rules out the idea, that he is making a reference towards Sidious force abilities, unless Star Wars is now part of the Highlander franchise, where people "inherit" the mythical power of the people they kill.



Already dealt with.



Because certain statements can be applied to a person, but only in the context of that persons own lifetime. You could call George W. Bush "the most powerful man in the world" when talking about the time, when he was US-President. The same doesn't apply to any time before and after that era. The same goes for the statement regarding Sidious and Yoda. When they fought, they were the most powerful force users, but that doesn't necessarily apply to any point before or after that fight. Or do you want to tell us, that Yoda is more powerful than the latest incarnations of Luke Skywalker?

And how does one statement "overwrite" another exactly, if not outright contradicting it? They didn't write down a nice and clear "And despite of what the Official Star Wars Fact File claims, Exar Kun was only once the most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords." That would be a retcon. What you present, is just another statement which, by the way, - if we follow your twisted logic - would put Kun above Vitiate in terms of power (since the Sith Emperor lived during Kun's "reign"wink. Does that sound reasonable to you?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nai
Because certain statements can be applied to a person, but only in the context of that persons own lifetime. You could call George W. Bush "the most powerful man in the world" when talking about the time, when he was US-President.Bravo sir, hence why the following is to be taken in context:
Because they don't need to. no expression

Let me explain to you the definition of "once" according to the Oxford English Dictionary:

once, adv., conj., adj., and n.

1. At or for one time only

2. At some point or period in the past; on some past occasion; formerly.

Clear? "Once" means that Exar Kun formerly, at a past point, held the title of most powerful Sith Lord, and therefore, he no longer does. This is a retcon (or merely a clarification for misguided individuals such as yourself wink) with the statement essentially saying that Exar Kun has been replaced, by a superior Sith Lord - Sidious, as the Complete Visual Dictionary surmises, something you've conveniently overlooked:
But I take it you were getting to that when you took the time to respond to my points. thumb up

P.S.So you admit that statements referring to Exar Kun's power are outdated and obsolete? If so I approve.

SunRazer

SunRazer
Originally posted by Nai
I wonder since when the personal views of Daniel Wallace are canon. Did I miss something? The article explores the creation of the Jedi Master and doesn't deal with in-universe phenomena. Pretty worthless, as far as this debate goes, because it's not "out of universe", as some people so happily mentioned - it's also out of canon.

Considering Wallace wrote a significant number of SW sourcebooks in which he detailed Exar Kun, I'd place him well above you in terms of credibility, and it's indeed out-of-universe because as you stated, it doesn't refer to any "in-universe" perspective. And it clearly makes reference to "Episode II" and "the movie", so it's obviously out-of-universe.

The fact that it was published in the Insider at all suggests a much higher level of credibility than you're giving, and you're going to have to give me more than an elaborate denial as to why the source isn't credible or reliable.

As for evidence supporting Wallace's/Insider's credibility, well, Jason Fry said so:

"I can help. Yes, that material is C-level canon. (And yes, the Insider is a "legitimate publication."wink Leland vets the stuff I write for Insider that's fiction or includes new continuity. He's a busy man; I doubt he'd do that for kicks on his break."

-- http://boards.theforce.net/threads/insider-articles-canon.50015677/



Do you have the full statement from Anderon stating this, in full context and with the source?

And the Endnotes are meant to convey the backstory of Dark Empire, in other words, representing the backstory of a canonical source. Author commentary isn't an unofficial opinion - by your logic, every single author's quotes are unreliable because it's simply their opinion being put to the paper with printing license.



Unfortunately I wasn't around during your multiple denials, but you're wrong. The Dark Side Sourcebook was published in 2001, which is after TotJ's Kun-related publications (1994-1998). Therefore, it indeed takes Exar Kun into consideration.

In fact, I've scanned the contents page of The Dark Side Sourcebook, and look who IS included - Exar Kun:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4673379-darksidesourcebookdarksiders.png



No, it doesn't, lol. It's a third-person limited perspective, and the "power that could be his" isn't related to the second and entirely different sentence of "the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known", which couldn't be referring to anything other than Force power, lol.

Vader has never envisioned desiring the militaristic and certainly not the political aspects of the Empire - it's clear he's referring to personal power; Force power. The removal of Sidious would result in Vader's access to all of Sidious's reserves of Force knowledge and experiments and what else, and I'm pretty sure Vader would savor that over controlling the military (which he kind of already does) and the politics of the Empire, which he definitely doesn't want to be involved with unless you can show me a source to suggest it's that.

Moreover, the text explicitly states Vader required an apprentice, which would be absolutely irrelevant unless it referred to a personal contest between Vader and Sidious - an actual showdown (not an election, lol). The apprentice would be absolutely meaningless in deciding militaristic/political/other non-Force power related instances. Unless, of course, you'd care to explain to me what difference an apprentice would make in those instances. Do you seriously reckon Vader and an apprentice could take on the whole Empire at once? Or that an apprentice would give Vader presidential election votes?



I won't deny that this is a fair point.



Excuse me and my twisted logic, but I mentioned the fact that the quote was retconned in TCSWE specifically because of instances such as the one with Vitiate - who is now canonically more powerful than Kun. The fact that the quote is now retconned to saying "once the most powerful of the Dark Lords" means that the quote now only refers up to and of his time, not of all time. Therefore, Palpatine is indeed exempted from the quote.

SunRazer
On the subject of the Dark Side Sourcebook - if Nai's reference was to the quote from the Dark Empire Sourcebook from 1993, then yeah, it's an older source without regard for most modern Sith.

However, the quote regardless operates under the consideration of prior events, which, while not fleshed out at the time, would've still been considered. Unless there's an explicit contradiction to the quote, it applies regardless. And there is no contradiction, since Exar Kun's quote of supremacy has now been retconned to applying only up to his own time, not beyond.

Angelalex242
Somebody's seriously arguing for Kun?

How silly.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Nai
What lightsaber accomplishments exactly?

I don't see many "lightsaber based" feats for Sidious.

His fight against Maul and Savage is certainly impressive. Yet, he defeats them with pretty much force powers only, instead of outduelling hin. Sure. He was capable of holding his own against the duo, but so was Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Didn't Mr. Filoni, the new head of canon, state that Sidious was toying with the duo?

Disregard that if you like, there's a reason many are still debating whether or not Sidious was toying with them. Still, you can't deny that it would be rather easy for Sheev to take on Maul when Sidious knows his combat style and form in and out.



He only took advantage of Saesee Tiin's attempt to read his mind then began his attack afterwards, although i'm not entirely sure if i'm correct.



Couldn't that be because he was too fast for the Masters?



First off, i want to state that i have yet to reach a conclusion of what I think happened or didn't happen in that fight. So i can't agree or disagree.

That said, you're forgetting that Mace Windu's mastery of Vaapad would grant Mace a significant edge.



Except that, Kun isn't that powerful when compared to Sidious nor is he on the same level as Yoda. I have not seen something that shows me that Exar is on par with Yoda.



But, isn't that debatable? after all Sidious has many quotes calling him a masterful user of the blade, I've seen a user provide the quote, but i don't seem to remember which thread they posted the quote in.



Perhaps, Sidious' main focus is not in direct combat, but he's not one to shy away from it either, as i stated before, Sidious and Yoda are among the top duelists of their respective eras.

The argument can be made for Kun that he, too, is the top "dog" of his era. But, i counter with this.

"What other notable duelists lived at that time?"



That's a good point, however i feel that you seem to forget that Sidious trained Maul in the saber-staff style and in several forms of combat, to the point where Maul became the most highly trained & skilled sith in history, meaning that Sidious' focus on combat isn't as ..."lax"? as you presume.

But, in all honesty, you do make a lot of good points, Nai. thumb up

Sinious
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Couldn't that be because he was too fast for the Masters?

Of course its because he was too fast for the Masters. laughing

I've tried to approach Nai's arguments objectively but they're laughable at this point.

Sidious arguably has the best saber feats in the mythos and unlike some of the other top duelists, his showings are very consistent.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Didn't Mr. Filoni, the new head of canon, state that Sidious was toying with the duo?




No.

But the official site mentions he toyed with Maul at the end. Of course that could just be referring to the part when he was tossing Maul around with the Force.

SunRazer
Yeah, Filoni states that he was enjoying himself and that the duo couldn't offer him a real fight if he went all-out. I posted that last page.

AncientPower
@Nargaroth, no most of Exar Kun's living feats are not on Yavin IV, that's blatantly wrong.

Sidious wins regardless however, anyone arguing otherwise is delusional.

Nephthys
Even if Sidious is the most powerful, that doesn't mean he wins.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by AncientPower
@Nargaroth, no most of Exar Kun's living feats are not on Yavin IV, that's blatantly wrong.

Sidious wins regardless however, anyone arguing otherwise is delusional.

Let's clarify that I was referring to most his Force feats, not his saber feats. To my memory, his only unamped feats are blasting Aleema Keto into unconsciousness, and hypnotizing the senate. If you have something else, please enlighten me.

AncientPower
Defensively:
He tanked a starfighter bombing run effortlessly with Force Barrier, he reflected Aleema's attack and last but not least he shrugged off Odan-Urr's Sever Force attack.

Offensively:
He has effortlessly ragdolled powerful Jedi, he froze the 10,000 strong senate effortlessly and stomped Vodo whilst maintaining it, when he reflected Aleema's attack he sent it back so strong she was out for the entirety of the ensuing duel.

Now whilst these are not really feats, I thought I'd enlighten you further:

When Vodo, Nomi and other Jedi 'fought' Ulic on Coruscant they pretty easily defeated him with a Wall of Light that he couldn't escape, when they met Exar Kun however they didn't even try, this is yet another indication that physical Kun is immune to Wall of Light/Sever Force attacks even from the technique's most veteran practitioners.

That further reinforces the statement that Exar Kun is far more powerful than any Jedi in his time, very impressive when you consider the likes of Thon and Arca Jeth, etc..

Every dark side technique that Kyp Durron used in JA Exar Kun taught him, including that black Force Lightning that Luke couldn't defend himself from despite prior learning advanced tutaminis, as well as a spell to render lightsaber crystals useless.

Like I said not exactly feats but just some of the very interesting stuff regarding Kun's powers.

SunRazer
Not sure if it's so much a matter of Exar being "immune" to the technique as it is him just being more powerful.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, Filoni states that he was enjoying himself and that the duo couldn't offer him a real fight if he went all-out. I posted that last page.


The official site also states Sidious enjoyed his fight against Yoda, so that proves little.

And Filoni said nothing about "IF" he went all out. He never once stated Sidious didn't go all out.

He in fact even compared the fight to the B-Team stating clearly that Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than Tiin, Kolar or Fisto did.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if Sidious is the most powerful, that doesn't mean he wins.


True. Sidious is more powerful than Mace but got beat by him.

Skywalker was more powerful than Kenobi but got beat by him also.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The official site also states Sidious enjoyed his fight against Yoda, so that proves little.

And Filoni said nothing about "IF" he went all out. He never once stated Sidious didn't go all out.

He in fact even compared the fight to the B-Team stating clearly that Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than Tiin, Kolar or Fisto did.


True. Sidious is more powerful than Mace but got beat by him.

Skywalker was more powerful than Kenobi but got beat by him also.

1. Maybe so, but it's clear Palpatine didn't go all-out until the end at the novel where he all but speedblitzed Maul, who ended up seeing "more than countless" blades. Coupled with other sources, I think Filoni's quote makes it clear Palpatine wasn't going all-out from the start. In fact, in the show, the reason the brothers even managed to fight Sidious at all is because he let them down from his telekinetic grip. Their two "hits" were absolutely inconsequential to the result of the fight.

2. He never said if he goes all-out, sure, but he states the brothers can't touch Sidious and can't compete with him, and that's presumably referring to an all-out scenario. You're hurting your argument by denying that it's a reference to all-out, because then Filoni would be saying the brothers can't compete with Sidious even if he didn't go all-out.

3. He also thinks any competent Jedi Council Member would easily beat RotJ Luke. Not sure what he thinks of Council Members as a whole, but his mentioning Savage putting up a fight has no relevance as to whether Sidious held back or not. As it is, Sidious held back against Savage based on the novel and Filoni's suggestions, and he didn't against the Jedi Masters.

4. The instances you listed involve circumstances. Kun supporters will need to prove the circumstances of this fight are on his side.

As of yet, Palpatine is more powerful (accolades speak for that, and so do his telekinetic feats of ragdolling Maul/Savage, choking Tyranus across the galaxy, and his Lightning feats of matching Yoda's Absorption and even overpowering it in the novel (in the junior novel, Yoda compares the force of Palpatine's Lightning to hurricanes), as well as reducing Sithspawn to ash and impacting Mace's blade with enough force to bend it back towards him), faster (moving faster than Maul and Anakin can see, matching Yoda in speed), and more skilled (fighting closely with Yoda, outskilling Maul and Savage, fighting an amped Mace to a standstill as per the novel, where Mace won under dubious circumstances).

5. Not that linking to respect threads is infallible, but this would be a solid reference point for Sidious: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/rots-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101088/

For Kun: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/i_like_swords/blog/exar-kun-respect-thread-updated-2014/101338/

Kotor3
Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if Sidious is the most powerful, that doesn't mean he wins. thumb up
Something that is forgotten in this forum. Really as of ROTS how much more powerful could Sidious be than Kun?

The Mace example already proves this point.

This is a great battle.

SunRazer
It's not an absolute slaughter by any means, I just haven't seen a convincing case for Kun so far. Kun is still fairly comparable to this version of Palpatine in sheer power, though, but I don't find it reasonable to suggest he's more powerful.

Also, does anybody know where this quote comes from:

"No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

Anderson apparently claims that in some Insider source, but "an Insider source" incredibly vague and I have a feeling it might just be made up.

Kotor3
I think Nai has already presented a strong argument for Kun winning.

As of ROTS Sidious seems to dominate those whom he is superior to by much. Those whom is not superior to by much have a good chance of beating him.

Examples Mace and Yoda.

I place Kun within the same tier as these two. It terms of saber skills and force powers Kun has a good chance of winning this battle. That is my opinion I would say the same for Revan as having a great chance of beating this version of Sidious.

Sidious as of ROTS to me is like a skilled Marital Artists or fighter who is being compared to another Marital Artists who is a professional fighter (Kun due to his fighting experience). Sidious could definitely win but experience is not on his side whereas for Kun it is.

Stigma
Hey guys, I've come across an interesting source that should shed a light on the matter:

"Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Yes, that means he's more powerful than Exar Kun."
-- The Most Up-To-Date Star Wars Encyclopedia


Also, thanks SunRazer.thumb up The quotes you posted confirm what pretty much all of us already knew: Sidious >>> Bane. Bane dies.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by Stigma
Hey guys, I've come across an interesting source that should shed a light on the matter:

"Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Yes, that means he's more powerful than Exar Kun."
-- The Most Up-To-Date Star Wars Encyclopedia


Also, thanks SunRazer.thumb up The quotes you posted confirm what pretty much all of us already knew: Sidious >>> Bane. Bane dies.

Mmm, I wasn't aware of this source. Are you sure it's official?

Stigma
Yes, it's legit thumb up

Nargaroth
Originally posted by Stigma
Yes, it's legit thumb up

Can't find it. Do you have a link?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Can't find it. Do you have a link? I think he's kidding. thumb up

Nargaroth
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think he's kidding. thumb up

I suspect it as well.

Stigma
I don't have a sense of humor.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Maybe so, but it's clear Palpatine didn't go all-out until the end at the novel where he all but speedblitzed Maul, who ended up seeing "more than countless" blades. Coupled with other sources, I think Filoni's quote makes it clear Palpatine wasn't going all-out from the start. In fact, in the show, the reason the brothers even managed to fight Sidious at all is because he let them down from his telekinetic grip. Their two "hits" were absolutely inconsequential to the result of the fight.


The novel isn't canon, the final episode is. Especially where the novel contradicts the episode, and in this case it does.

According to the novel Maul was still fighting with a single Saber. That didn't happen. According to the novel, Maul got disarmed by being speed blitzed. That didn't happen, and in fact they were fighting pretty equally in terms of speed and skill. In the end Sidious disarmed Maul via superior strength.

Filoni's quotes don't suggest anything of the sort.

The telekinetic grip is fair point, and there's certainly a good case to say he held back with his Tk. But then given he used his Tk in the fight to KO Maul so he could finish off Savage, kind of points to Sidious not holding back.

In any case it wasn't like Yoda freezing Ventress and taking her weapons away from her, then giving them back at will. Sids was actively keeping the brothers against the wall, and they were not in reach of Saber or anything.

The 2 hits being inconsequential to the end result is also inconsequential to the topic at hand.



Originally posted by SunRazer
2. He never said if he goes all-out, sure, but he states the brothers can't touch Sidious and can't compete with him, and that's presumably referring to an all-out scenario. You're hurting your argument by denying that it's a reference to all-out, because then Filoni would be saying the brothers can't compete with Sidious even if he didn't go all-out.


What?

Filoni saying the Brothers can't compete with Sidious in no way implies that he was holding back the whole time. Simply because it was a very one sided fight as it was.



Originally posted by SunRazer



We're not talking about Filoni's general rankings here. We're talking about whether he claims/thinks Sidious was holding back against them. The fact that he puts Opress's performance against Sidious ABOVE Fisto/Tiin/Kolar's performance, suggests he's not claiming that.

Because whatever you or I think of Filoni's rankings, it's pretty clear to anyone (you, me or Filoni) that Sidious wasn't holding back against Tiin/Fisto/Kolar. And yet that's the comparison Filoni made.



Now don't get me wrong, I do believe there were points in the fight where Sidious was playing around. Like his one on one with Opress, or the end of the Maul fight where he's just tossing Maul around. But that's a far cry from claiming Sidious was holding back the whole time.

And there's no evidence claiming that either.

The_Tempest
Take that debate to the appropriate thread, plz. I'd rather not have anything obstruct the present discussion about Kun vs. Sidious. excellent

Beniboybling
Nai appears to have conceded tbh.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The novel isn't canon, the final episode is. Especially where the novel contradicts the episode, and in this case it does.

According to the novel Maul was still fighting with a single Saber. That didn't happen. According to the novel, Maul got disarmed by being speed blitzed. That didn't happen, and in fact they were fighting pretty equally in terms of speed and skill. In the end Sidious disarmed Maul via superior strength.

Filoni's quotes don't suggest anything of the sort.

The telekinetic grip is fair point, and there's certainly a good case to say he held back with his Tk. But then given he used his Tk in the fight to KO Maul so he could finish off Savage, kind of points to Sidious not holding back.

In any case it wasn't like Yoda freezing Ventress and taking her weapons away from her, then giving them back at will. Sids was actively keeping the brothers against the wall, and they were not in reach of Saber or anything.

The 2 hits being inconsequential to the end result is also inconsequential to the topic at hand.

We're discussing Legends, not Canon lol. The novel is Legends - it doesn't become invalidated just through a contradiction with the show, because Legends isn't divided into that old G, T, C-canon etc. anymore. They're both different interpretations of the fight - that's it. Otherwise, the novel was written for no purpose and has no value.

Filoni's quotes also state the brothers can't even touch him, but they did - twice. As I said, if you take all of Filoni's quotes and the novel, and actually use something called inference (because you don't get everything served up on a plate in life), then you will realize that Sidious held back until the climax clash with Maul at the end.

If Sidious was unrestrained in his usage of telekinesis, he'd be endlessly throwing the brothers around until they died of brain damage and broken bones.

That doesn't have any relevancy to the point in the absolute slightest. Sidious using telekinesis actively and them not being within saber range isn't related to whether or not Sidious held back. Everybody uses telekinesis actively, lol.



The brothers were competing, lol, and they did touch Sidious. So unless Filoni was referring to Sidious going all-out, then his quotes would contradict his very show (which is the one you consider canon).



Filoni saying Savage lasted longer isn't relevant to whether or not Sidious held back, to be honest. Savage put up a better fight against Sidious who was holding back; the others were cut down immediately by a Sidious who wasn't holding back.



Sidious didn't hold back the entire time. Even in the novel, he gradually increased his speed during the final clash with Maul. I agree around there he was less restrained, but I just think it's almost obvious he was holding back in the rest of the contest. In some points, it's more obvious, sure, but in the end this seems to be subjective and it's derailing the thread, so I say we just agree to disagree here.

Nai
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nai appears to have conceded tbh.
You have, quite clearly, no idea who you're dealing with, Beniboy.
I've merely encountered a nice pile of work on my desk, that shouldn't have been there, which forced me to spent some time working, instead of continuing this marvelous exchange of arguments with you folks. And I hope you can forgive that I overlooked your previous points. That wasn't a deliberate act of mine, I really just scrolled over your posting without taking notice. Here you have your reply:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Care to elaborate? The only (effective) Force power Exar Kun has that Sidious doesn't is the Force Blast, however he is more than capable of not only replicating but surpassing it's destructive effects with Force Lightning.

Oh. Is he now? Care to provide some proof for that claim? Because, you see, last time I checked Kun was blasting holes through giant beasts and metre-thick temple walls and obliterating Massassi with room-sized beams of force energy. This in a point in time where he didn't have much control over his amulets. He also simply knocked out Aleema Keto with a casual blast of dark side energy, did quite the same to Sylvar and outright killed Odan-Urr with a single force attack. I'm not really certain where RotS Sidious has demonstrated destructive abilities with his force lightning on a similar level. He doesn't really leave nothing but ashes behind, when firing it at Mace Windu, does he? Nor does he turn Yoda into a charred skeleton when hitting the Jedi Master with a barrage.

That aside: The force abilities of Exar Kun's half-mad and powerless spirit were enough to simply incinerate Gantoris who had dared to attack him. One Sith magic attack from Kun's spirit ripped Luke's spirit from his body. He managed to outright mind-control Streen. And, of course, managed to aid Kyp Durron in recovering the Sun Crusher from the atmosphere of a gas giant as well as - shortly before his final banishment - almost chocking Luke's students to death collectively.



How is Sidious' force defense "logically superior" exactly? You really need to explain that "logic" to me. I, somehow, didn't see Sidious tanking the most powerful light side power there is, just to get up a split second later and deliver an fatal force attack at the 1,000 year old Jedi Master, who just attacked him before. Neither did I see Sidious outright ignoring Sith magic attacks that killed people before (which Kun does, before blasting Aleema down).


Says who, again?


The powers mentioned above would be a good example.



He is probably far more powerful in the Force than Mace Windu and comes equipped with an uncanny amount of Dark Side abilities, which would mean an offensive use of the Force beyond force pushes. Something that Sidious, correct me if I'm wrong, has never encountered before.
On top of that, he has been called the "most forbidable student" in terms of lightsaber combat that Vodo ever had, with Vodo being the guy that trained Jedi for four (or six?) centuries. A remark that Vodo makes, after Kun had just defeated him in direct combat, utilizing two lightsabers in unison. So he is exceptionally gifted with the weapon, even when he is nothing more than an apprentice and already capable of handling two lightsabers in unison, which isn't exactly easy.

You may add Kun's lightsaber to the menu, which comes with adjustable blade length and even the intensity of the lightsaber beam, which enables him to strike through the weapons of possible opponents. And, of course, Kun is equiped with his battle armor, that is made of cortosis weave, a material that does resist lightsaber hits, with cortosis being known to be able of causing lightsabers to shorten out. That would at least allow Kun to care much less about getting hit than the people Sidious did encounter before, if not even leave Sidious without a weapon, should he manage to get a hit in on Kun.



Thanks for providing that huge amount of proof for your claims. Oh, wait. You didn't. You just assume that this is true, like every other Sidious fanboy. Yet, you can't proof any of it. So? And I'm not your friend, punk.



The quote from the Insider is completely not canon, so it has no influence on our little debate. And I wonder what "greatest master of evil to ever use the Sith power" should tell me? That there were greater masters of evil, that didn't use the Sith power? Or, that he isn't the "greatest master of Sith power", because - obviously - those and "evil" are two different things. So he was more evil than Kun. Gosh. That will certainly ensure his triumph!

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bravo sir, hence why the following is to be taken in context:
Because they don't need to. no expression
Let me explain to you the definition of "once" according to the Oxford English Dictionary:
once, adv., conj., adj., and n.
1. At or for one time only
2. At some point or period in the past; on some past occasion; formerly.
Clear? "Once" means that Exar Kun formerly, at a past point, held the title of most powerful Sith Lord, and therefore, he no longer does. This is a retcon (or merely a clarification for misguided individuals such as yourself wink) with the statement essentially saying that Exar Kun has been replaced, by a superior Sith Lord - Sidious, as the Complete Visual Dictionary surmises, something you've conveniently overlooked:
But I take it you were getting to that when you took the time to respond to my points. thumb up
P.S.So you admit that statements referring to Exar Kun's power are outdated and obsolete? If so I approve.

*sigh*
Did it ever occur to you, that the "once" is merely in that sentence, because Exar Kun is dead? He is nothing any longer, so he once was something. This translates into a "retcon" in favour of Sidious how exactly? Right. It doesn't.
To have a retcon, you would need a quote that states Sidious is "the most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords". Haven't found it yet, despite of your effort? I'm really sorry, "friend", but that means that your interpretation is...well...your interpretation and nothing more.

Nai

Nai

Nai

Nai

Nephthys
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww260/Dragoshi/GODDAAAAAAAMN.jpg

Stigma
Nice! thumb up


Quinlan Vos uhuh

The_Tempest
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnzghp5Z591qdzxj5.gif

Stigma
Kun > Vitiate, confirmed.

The_Tempest
My .gif was in response to the above debate.

Stigma
c'mon man.... sad

The_Tempest
I am well pleased and well entertained, my son. Vitiate is inconsequential.

Stigma
That I can agree with, ... father?

The_Tempest
excellent

Now let us observe the next volley.

Stigma
Indeed. We live in interesting times.

The Merchant
I think we should just look at feats instead of discussing quotes on a character's power tbh.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nai

You have, quite clearly, no idea who you're dealing with, Beniboy.
I've merely encountered a nice pile of work on my desk, that shouldn't have been there, which forced me to spent some time working, instead of continuing this marvelous exchange of arguments with you folks. And I hope you can forgive that I overlooked your previous points. That wasn't a deliberate act of mine, I really just scrolled over your posting without taking notice. Here you have your replyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg&t=1m28sOn Yavin 4, a massively powerful dark side nexus:
That was regarded by Satele as in a league above Oricon:
Which itself was incredibly potent:
But do you know what else? The Sith Temple Kun performed these feats in was a focal point of that dark side power:Or are we forgetting that Revan was able to ragdoll the likes of Satele, Marr and Beniko, all at once, on this planet? As well as teleport at will, corrupt with his presence and conjure up deadly phantoms of dark side energy?

And it's made pretty evident that the amulet Kun uses to achieve these feats, was amplified by this nexus:

Exhibit A: "Suddenly finding he can speak the Sith tongue, Exar Kun reaches to toward the focus of power."

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4249293-kun+gauntlets.png

Exhibit B: "With a clash of iron the amulet clamps itself to his arm... Exar Kun suddenly feels his rage multiply a thousand times, then a hundred thousand times."

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4249294-kun+gauntlets2.png

Fact is Exar Kun has never replicated this kind of potency off Yavin 4, and this battle does not take place on any kind of nexus at all.A Sith adept, whereas Sidious has rendered the Sith Lord Darth Maul utterly helpless, blasted the spirit of Mother Tazlin - an exceptionally powerful Force User - out of the body of Dooku, and reduced a group of Sith prophets to ash, something he did with equal nonchalant ease.With telekinesis. Not Force Blast erm

But if we are talking telekinesis now, then I raise you incapacitating Maul:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4220910-e7pyp.gif

And later ragdolling him with ease:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4220951-e7qtp.gif

Killing Odan-Urr is all well and good, but not particularly impressive considering Urr indicates his powers had waned with age:

"I... am old... evil is loose... in the galaxy... and I cannot stop it..."

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/4249300-kun+kills+odan-urr2.jpg

Odan-Urr being 200 hundred years beyond his species natural lifespan, of course his powers had waned, this is not a particular impressive feat.Are you seriously comparing Windu and Yoda to Massassi warriors and some oversized slugs? laughing out loud

And for the record, ROTS Sidious capably reduced a Sith spawn to dust with his lightning:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4221841-1986656921-19944.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4221842-6169738440-19944.jpg

Off-nexus, and could probably replicate Kun's nexus feats without an amp as well. :upmessedo we're falling back on spirit feats now? Prove these are attributable to Kun's physical form - and without the help of Kyp Durron too.Sever Force is as only as potent as the one who wields it. Where is the proof that Odan Urr is strong enough to sever Sidious? So your equating Sidious with non-Force sensitives now? laughing

Sidious' Force barriers were so strong that even Vader couldn't touch him:
What proof do we have the Keto can?

As for the logic. Darth Sidious is more powerful than Exar Kun, therefore his Force defenses, which directly correlate to power, should be superior as well. Sidious Force Barriers were strong enough.The various sources that place Sidious above Kun as a Force wielder. :upmessedo Telekinesis and Force Blast. Hardly anything Sidious can't match. ermWe're discussing lightsaber skill here not Force powers, try not to get sidetracked.Did Vodo train Yoda? Windu? No. This accolade is irrelevant.

The accolade that establish Windu as superior in ability to the Jedi Council - who have been regarded as among the greatest lightsaber duelists in mythos - is. As is the accolade that touts Yoda as perhaps the greatest lightsaber duelist in galactic history.

I again ask was Exar Kun has on these individuals.

Beniboybling
Sidious can counter Kun's unorthodoxy with versatility - as a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat - and speed, which for the record is superior to anything Kun has shown.Which would only make Exar Kun reckless and therefore more vulnerable. And while sure a hit could short out his lightsaber, Sidious can still fall back on his Force powers to recover and regain the upper hand.Punk? You must be old. laughing out loud

But you want proof? Very well then. In brief:

Strength
Before receiving any training, possessed enough strength to tear off limbs and crush skulls.

Warded off the combined strength of Maul and Savage and later overpowered Maul. Maul who has shattered spines and ripped off out the heart of a Wampa without Force augmentation, and Savage who has killed Padawan's with a single stroke, driven back Anakin and Kenobi at once and disarmed Dooku with a blow.
Speed & Agility
Blitzed three Jedi Council Members before they can react, all regarded to be among the best the Order had produced, in a few seconds.

Moved too fast for Maul to see, who in turn was too fast for Komari Vosa, and appeared invisible to holocameras.

Deflected omin-directional fire from waves of 200 battle droids.

Defeated an army of Kursid warriors using no offensive Force powers or lightsabers, merely Force pikes, and without sustaining a single hit.I think I've covered Force powers and lightsaber skill already, so I await Exar Kun's superior showings. thumb uphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhnY8pU3rFc&t=0m21s

I assume you have something to support it, yes? Because I have:
The Star Wars Insider is a licensed Lucasfilm source, and you've given no reason to doubt its validity.I wonder if you take yourself seriously in attempting to undermine each and every one of Sidious' accolades. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

On the other hand, what was your excuse for this one again?
Assuming you ever had one...

SunRazer
Don't worry, my response will be up tomorrow or the day after. Nobody's crying yet, Nai.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by SunRazer
We're discussing Legends, not Canon lol. The novel is Legends - it doesn't become invalidated just through a contradiction with the show, because Legends isn't divided into that old G, T, C-canon etc. anymore. They're both different interpretations of the fight - that's it. Otherwise, the novel was written for no purpose and has no value.


TCW is a part of Legends. The Legends canon status always was that it was overwritten by actual on screen fights when contradicted. Whilst it gives us more insight into scenes where Not contradicted.

So for example Dooku didn't kick slam Kenobi as stated in the ROTS Novel because that never happened in the actual movie.

So no the novel isn't simply a "different interpretation" of the fight. The episode is the correct and final version, the novel simply supports it, but is not equal to it. Same as has always been the case with the movie novelisations.

Also bear in mind the novel was released before the actual episodes, and Filoni and crewe didn't want the entire thing completely spoiled, hence no mention of who Satine's sister was, nor does it mention Sidious keeping Maul alive at the end. He wanted to keep a couple of surprises, and probably didn't want the climax fight being completely spoiled.




Originally posted by SunRazer
Filoni's quotes also state the brothers can't even touch him, but they did - twice. As I said, if you take all of Filoni's quotes and the novel, and actually use something called inference (because you don't get everything served up on a plate in life), then you will realize that Sidious held back until the climax clash with Maul at the end.


Firstly I think you're taking the "not touching Sidious" thing way too literally. He was simply just justifying why it was such a one sided fight. But if you want to take all his quotes completely literally on this fight, then he will be contradicting himself anyway. As he's outright called the fight a "legitimate one." In any case if he went All Out with his Tk, then yes it is very possible they never could have touched him, as they possibly never could have even clashed Sabers with him. But that doesn't mean if he chooses to clash Sabers with them, that they still can't touch him. Remember in these quotes, Filoni never really distinguished between, Force, Sabars and All out. He was simply talking All-Out.

Second IIRC he did't say "Maul and Opress" can't touch this guy, but that "NO ONE" can touch this guy. Well Mace Windu would disagree, as would Yoda.

Third- As Nai has already pointed out, you can't have the Director completely contradicting what happened on screen. If he does, his words become irrelevant, as it's what happens on screen that is the most canon source. Otherwise going by your logic, you must agree with Lucas that ROTJ Luke was only a "Half Trained" Padawan, as that's what Lucas himself says in the commentary, despite the fact that the film makes it clear he was fully trained.






Originally posted by SunRazer
If Sidious was unrestrained in his usage of telekinesis, he'd be endlessly throwing the brothers around until they died of brain damage and broken bones.

That doesn't have any relevancy to the point in the absolute slightest. Sidious using telekinesis actively and them not being within saber range isn't related to whether or not Sidious held back. Everybody uses telekinesis actively, lol.



I agree he could toss them around and crush them easily with his Tk. I agree he clearly held back with his Tk, and clearly toyed with them in that sense. Doesn't mean he didn't want to test his own Saber skills against them.


Originally posted by SunRazer
The brothers were competing, lol, and they did touch Sidious. So unless Filoni was referring to Sidious going all-out, then his quotes would contradict his very show (which is the one you consider canon).

Already addressed.




Originally posted by SunRazer
Filoni saying Savage lasted longer isn't relevant to whether or not Sidious held back, to be honest. Savage put up a better fight against Sidious who was holding back; the others were cut down immediately by a Sidious who wasn't holding back.


It is relevant because he specifically made that comparison. If Sidious was holding back the entire Saber fight (which you've admitted he probably wasn't), then Filoni's comparison would have been a completely useless and pointless one to make, and we have to wonder why he would even go there.

Sidious never used Tk against Fisto/Tiin/Kolar. He simply cut them down. So even if Sidious wasn't holding back for like 30% of the "Saber" battle against the Brothers, the comparison would be relevant.

And like Nai pointed out there was no sense Extreme toying going on during the the actual Saber battle. With the exception of Sidious's 1 v 1 against Opress. There he was clearly holding back and toying.



Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious didn't hold back the entire time. Even in the novel, he gradually increased his speed during the final clash with Maul. I agree around there he was less restrained, but I just think it's almost obvious he was holding back in the rest of the contest. In some points, it's more obvious, sure, but in the end this seems to be subjective and it's derailing the thread, so I say we just agree to disagree here.

I actually agree with most of this. And agree he was likely holding back with his Tk for most the fight. But like Nai correctly pointed out, if he was holding back entirely in his Saber abilities, then why Force KO Maul when he was fed up of holding back?

Why not simply stop holding back in Sabers, and show his True Saber potential against both of them? He'd already displayed his true Tk potential and did so again at the end 1 v 1 against Maul.

I disagree that it's derailing the thread. I think when discussing Sidious's feats it's relevant to discuss what abilities he's actually proven in that fight that's referenced all the time. And fact is he's displayed Amazing and Unparalleled TK Prowess in that fight. But in terms of Saber ability all he's shown is he can fend off both Brothers together, and 1 v 1 stomp one of them, and defeat the other.

Sinious
Can someone provide some speed feats for Kun?

AncientPower
As memory serves he was fast enough to contend with Ulic, whose speed feats are quite impressive, speed blitzing Dark Jedi Warb Null and blitzing Ommin as Ommin shot sorcery at him. He has also created numerous after-images of himself and his lightsaber in combat.

The_Tempest
Allow me to reiterate:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Take that debate to the appropriate thread, plz. I'd rather not have anything obstruct the present discussion about Kun vs. Sidious. excellent

Also:







I'm liking you less and less, son. uhuh

Sinious
Originally posted by AncientPower
As memory serves he was fast enough to contend with Ulic, whose speed feats are quite impressive, speed blitzing Dark Jedi Warb Null and blitzing Ommin as Ommin shot sorcery at him. He has also created numerous after-images of himself and his lightsaber in combat.

Thanks. Not bad at all.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The_Tempest


I'm liking you less and less, son. uhuh


big grin

The_Tempest
uhuh

Stigma
Originally posted by The Merchant
I think we should just look at feats instead of discussing quotes on a character's power tbh.
Nah. Feats and accolades are the way to go.

Kun > Vitiate.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Stigma
Nah. Feats and accolades are the way to go.

Kun > Vitiate.

If we go by feats alone wouldn't that make this a little one sided for palpatine.

Nai

Nai

DarthAnt66
Revan > Kun, btw. wink

Selenial
Lol at using a speed feat even Meetra Surik has beaten, to suggest Kun has speed on the level of Sheev mmm

The Merchant
Nai, if you had to compare Palpatine to any of the older Dark-siders from Kun's time, who would you think would be his equal?

Nephthys
It's kind of bizarre that the Massassi have a bunch of techno celtic crosses in their temple.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The Merchant
Nai, if you had to compare Palpatine to any of the older Dark-siders from Kun's time, who would you think would be his equal?
He will probably say Simus, lol.

The Merchant
I see Palpatine being around King Ommin level.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
@SunRazer

{The three sources in question, off the top of my head}

Vader: The Ultimate Guide:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/ sidious%20most%20powerful%20vader%20ultimate%20gui
de_zpsdjh7abwc.png

Can't get this one to format properly.

Star Wars Insider #86:

http://i.imgur.com/Vc7T8ZN.jpg

"Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals":

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Sidious%20most%20powerful%20sith_zps9lxqiwb3.png This is quite the humiliation Nai is undertaking. I can see why he backs down to posters because this sort of thing occurs which does a number on his self esteem, apparently.

Darth Thor

SunRazer
Don't have the time to be posting any large post right now due to unforeseeable time issues, but the point regarding Leland Chee's post - if you actually went on the site and looked at it in context, it's just Chee questioning the poster on whether the quote(s) in question referred to power or governmental power etc. As far as I see it, some of those quotes are very clearly referring to Force power, but as he says, there's room for discussion and at this rate we can't do anything other than agree to disagree.

Nai
@Selenial
Originally posted by Selenial
Lol at using a speed feat even Meetra Surik has beaten, to suggest Kun has speed on the level of Sheev mmm

I already said, that I don't consider "force speed" feats to be impressive, due to the fact that pretty much every character in the mythos has some going for him. It's a very basic ability and the respective instances of use are hardly compareable.

Is Luke in Shadows of the Empire (between ESB and ROTJ) "faster" than anybody else already, because he sees the motions of a superhumanly fast Assassination droid in "slow motion" while using force speed in an involuntary instance (it just happened to him)? Is Mace the fastest, because his movements are "invisible" in contrast to the "lightning fast" movment speed of Kar Vastor? Is Bane the fastest, who can move so fast that time appears to have stopped for him?

I find it hilarious to compare those speed feats, since - obviously - the characters are all capable of applying them on a certain level and it is rarely a deciding factor in fights. What I find rather laughable is the suggestion, that Sidious must be faster than everyone else, based on - pretty much - nothing.

@TheMerchant
Originally posted by The Merchant
Nai, if you had to compare Palpatine to any of the older Dark-siders from Kun's time, who would you think would be his equal?

Nobody.

You see: This kind of comparison is the exact logical fault, that appears to plague most people here. You have your personal concept of a characters relative standing in a "hierarchy" of characters, and then cast judgements according to that positioning. So if you place Sidious on top - as some people here do - the "logical" assumption is, that he must be capable of beating everybody "below" him.

And that is nonsense.

As I see it, the post-Bane Sith are fundamentally different from their earlier counterparts. The early Sith (e.g. Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, Kressh) existed in a competitive enviroment, in which the biggest concern was to stay ahead of everybody else in terms of personal combat ability, since it was the "strongest" Sith Lord, that was set to rule the Empire. So the ruler was pretty much the top dog of a rather huge pool of Sith Lords that did - more or less - compete for the one position that matters.

For the Rule-of-Two-Sith Lords from Bane on, this isn't something to consider. They don't need to focus on combat that much, because the only opposition they eventually need to face was their own master or apprentice. And even then, this wasn't always a matter of mano-a-mano confrontation, as Sidious himself shows quietly clearly, when getting rid of Plagueis.

This is why I can't make an accurate call for characters from the different eras. For me, there is a pool of individuals, who probably have a very similar level of "power" between whom fights could go either way. For Sidious this could be Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, Kressh, Kun, Nadd, Hord and Vitiate, even though there is a huge gap of power suggested between those individuals themselves.

Why? Because those people have made a point of their individual power. Some of them ran around and conquered entire planets on their own (Nadd, Hord), which is in itself a considerable combat feat, considering the space-age nature of most SW civilizations. Others have pulled mind-blowing stuff out of their Sith laboratories. Just consider the Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger, that, effectively, turns its wearer into an invinceble combatant (constructed by Ludo Kressh). And then imagine how powerful one must be to come up with stuff like that. Yet even Kressh had his equals (Sadow) and - probably - even superiors (Ragnos). There probably is a reason why Kreia thought of herself (and the Exile) as "children handling toys" in comparison to those Ancient Sith when it comes down to combat.

That doesn't preclude the idea, that Sidious might be the most knowledgeable or powerful Sith or that he might come up with equal (or superior) stuff. The point is, that he apparently never saw a reason to focus on the particular branch of force powers, combat abilities, Sith Alchemy, whatever which may be a serious disadvantage in combat, compared to the people who did.

@Darth Thor
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That may have seemed to have been the case in "Legends", but in TCW Canon they suggest he was trained as a true Sith Lord- According to comments by Filoni and Witwer at least.

Now he may have still been Sidious's "Tool" (as were Dooku and Vader), and Sidious would clearly betray and replace him without a second thought (again same as with Dooku and Vader). But that doesn't mean he wasn't making the most of Maul's training while he was his apprentice.


Also the new Ultimate Guide not only refers to Maul as a Sith Lord, but one of the deadliest and well trained Sith Lords ever. But even in Legends I wouldn't rely on what Plagueis think Sidious's true intentions are for Maul.

Well. Sidious himself makes some rather huge statement on how to select and train apprentices so they won't eventually surpass him. And I've seen nothing to suggest, that Maul has received anything else than combat training. They don't show him wielding Force Lightning or doing anything impressive with the Force. In most of the available source material, even Jedi Padawan's pose a threat to him, when it comes down to the application of the Force. That's a rather different caliber from somebody like Dooku, who utterly dominates opponents with the Force.

@SunRazer
Originally posted by SunRazer
Don't have the time to be posting any large post right now due to unforeseeable time issues, but the point regarding Leland Chee's post - if you actually went on the site and looked at it in context, it's just Chee questioning the poster on whether the quote(s) in question referred to power or governmental power etc. As far as I see it, some of those quotes are very clearly referring to Force power, but as he says, there's room for discussion and at this rate we can't do anything other than agree to disagree.

I went on the site and looked at the context. Chee was asked, if this quote from the New Essential Chronology confirmed Sidious' status as most powerful force user among the Sith Lords. Chee handed out the answer I've quoted. And none of the quotes posted here do "clearly" refer to Force powers. Though even if they did, that wouldn't put Sidious on a pedestal of invicibility, which was - kind of - my point here.

SunRazer
If you Ctrl+F "New Essential Chronology" here: http://web.archive.org/web/20070301145241/http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1200

There's no results?

And besides, the post Chee responded to was this:

"say if we were having a debate on who was the most powerful sith ever, and a random sourcebook states that Sidious is, would that make it absolute, and render the discussion over, or would is still only be a matter of opinion and still up for debate?"

Which mentions no sourcebook in particular, and has no context (hence why Chee inquired further into it). If we're given sufficient context, we can safely deduct what sort of power the quote is referring to.

NewGuy01
The same can be said for telekinesis, but some are clearly a lot better at it than others. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying Darth Vader and Qui-Gon Jinn are peers with telekinesis because both have the capacity to perform it.



These are all fine speed feats.



"Sidious's sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor."

^It certainly was a deciding factor there.



The relevance of the amount of Sith competing for a spot is nonexistant if the strongest competitor is still there. It wouldn't really matter to Sadow if every Sith in the Empire was vying to become DLOTS after Marka died, or if it was only Ludo--because either way Ludo is the top competition. The only thing that changes the game in that respect is if multiple Sith team up to take down a single stronger Sith, which weakens the Empire rather than strengthening it.

Beniboybling
Nai, please format your images. roll eyes (sarcastic) http://www.videogameologists.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Emperor-Palpatine.jpgAnd yet the fact that it was neutralised by his death (and unaffected by Plagueis') demonstrates it was dependent on his sole existence. The difference between Exar Kun and Sidious is that Exar Kun profited off a nexus to increase his power, whereas Sidious was so powerful to be responsible for one. thumb upFalse on all accounts.

First off, the network of temples were built by Naga Sadow and the planet's transformation into a dark side nexus is dated back to his era not Kun's:This statement is made in the contexts of around 3,600 BBY, 400 years after the rise of Exar Kun, not well over a thousand. Further proof:Instead its made clear that Kun merely improved on a network of pre-existing constructs:Really though it's self evident that these properties already existed considering the temple Exar Kun finds himself in its filled with glowing pillars of light, a temple constructed by a species noted to channel the dark side through their architectural constructs - but those are just for decoration right?Overlooked? Care to explain how this changes anything? What you've quoted proves that the amulet focuses Exar Kun's rage, but how does that change the fact that it's ability to do so was amplified by the temple and the planet? It just so happens that Sith amulets are powered by the dark side. wink

On top of that the rage inside of him would be all the more potent considering how subsumed in the dark side that location would have been.

And I thought we weren't friends. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1341734200.gifPoint is Kun isn't sitting on a massively powerful nexus.And that's supposed proof that he could? laughing out loudExplain to me why I should care about his nexus feats first.Except the crystal was destroyed by the worm. ermMay I ask why are you using TPM accolades? TCW Maul is a whole different beast:
There is a reason why Sidious went from viewing Maul as a disposable tool to a "rival."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhnY8pU3rFc&t=0m57s

Zero feats? What rock have you been living under? laughing You'll find that in your absence, Maul has added a lot of impressive feats to his name:

For example outright Force choking Kenobi, which before only Dooku has replicated:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4253755-forcechokeobi-wan.jpg

Not only snapping the neck by turning the head of Faleen 360 degrees:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/erkan12/blog/darth-maul-respect-thread/101256/

With a single Force push he could take out 10 soldiers:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4254030-star+wars+-+darth+maul+-+death+sentence-033.jpg

Collapses a cave with the Force:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11113/111137054/4254037-darth+maul+collapses+cave.jpg

Blows Kenobi across a considerable distance:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4291206-fdgfdgnbn.gif

Manipulates a large shuttle with the Force while under heavy blaster fire:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4277547-gghjj.gif

Blows away an entire army of battle droids with a Force wave a la Windu in OCW:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4254099-maul+force+wave1.jpg

These are high level telekinetic feats, and on top of that he managed to survive being chopped in half through sheer power in the dark side. He is more than Keto's match.

Beniboybling
If that where the case all Force users would be immortal, but instead they wither and die, seeing how closely connected the Force is to life its only logical that their connection would eventually follow suit.Uh-huh. Considering Sidious has Force choked Dooku with minimal effort and over holo, who in turn has himself Force choked the likes of Ventress, Vos and Kenobi, colour me unconvinced that Force killing a (old and feeble) "Jedi Master" is proof he's in Palpatine's league.Care to attach a point to that? Is it that he made it out of paper-mache?In your opinion, and for which they'd have Sidious to thank.To bad he did it on a nexus.Plenty, namely that Exar Kun didn't possess a physical body, and was therefore no longer restrained by the limitations of the mortal coil - both in terms of the amount of energy he could channel, and the extent to which he could. On top of that Exar Kun was stated to have grown "very powerful on Kyp's hate" whom he combined his powers with.

You should read my blog on the subject:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/beniboybling/blog/understanding-the-nature-of-force-ghosts-sith-spir/105225/

Hopefully you find it enlightening. winkLogic would be my primary source.

If this ability has nothing to do with the powers of those involved, then it would always be successful, and yet it failed against Exar Kun. Suggesting either Odan-Urr was too weak, or Exar Kun was too strong, or both. Likewise it took several of the Jedi Order's most powerful masters just to trap Ulic in a wall of light and yet when he is self professed to be weak and defenseless, Nomi severs him completely and unaided.

Connections to the Force vary in strength and size like anything else.Correct, because your argument is absurd. thumb up

However I missed the part where Kun actually defends against Keto's blast...You need to read the quote again:Vader's rage is directed at Sidious, but he cannot touch him. He's not just thrashing about haphazardly.*sigh* Your erronoueslty assuming like many others that a Force push is just a pure Force-based attack like Force lightning or Force grip, a Force push is the manipulation and compression of air particles into a pressurised missile which is then launched at the target.

And just as one can't expect Force barriers to protect oneself from solid matter, gaseous matter is no different, the only way you could defend yourself against from what is essentially a powerful and concentrated air current is by rooting yourself to the ground or throwing up a tangible shield.

Simply put Sidious was just caught of guard, neither rooting himself to the ground or throwing up a shield. They didn't decide to make his Force barriers arbitrarily inconsistent with his Force abilities. Nor did they decide to do the same when Kanan and Ezra - (whom Vader had just thoroughly trashed) Force pushed him to the floor:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/y3NAj7.gifSeeing as Kyp and the spirit of Exar Kun aren't present, I'm sure he'll do fine. thumb upAnd naturally you have proof Exar Kun is even comparable to Yoda in telekinesis.Except Sithisis, which you appear to be familiar with, demonstrates that Windu didn't disfigure Sidious' face but merely dispelled the Sith mask we see him forge in said comic.

Not that "he hasn't therefore he can't" is at all a valid form of argument.And I asked for proof of Kun's comparable dueling ability - you brought up Force feats irrelevant to that subject.Because Mace and Yoda's accolades actually put them above Exar Kun. Being among the greatest lightsaber duelists in mythos puts you in Exar Kun's league, Mace and Yoda are above such individuals and better yet Yoda is regarded as the greatest duelists ever. Being the best of Vodo's students doesn't mark him as superior to Mace or Yoda at all.

Sure, Exar Kun's lightsaber skills are exceptional and a match for ROTS Sidious, but to suggest they give him an edge over him is simply untrue.
Are you attempting to say that all Force users are equal to each other in speed? That's obviously not true. There are individuals who are "pretty fast" and then there are those likely Sidious, who are evidently much faster.I am not the one who raised the point that Kun would "care less about getting hit" - don't be mad. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2570579909.png

And what proof do you have that Kun can move fast enough to do that? Especially considering Sidious' precognitive powers would likely alert him to such a happening before it even happened?

Beniboybling
Which are all Maul level feats, unaugmented, plunging your fist into a wampa's torso before ripping out its heart, shattering spines with a casual elbowing and tearing off Varactyl skulls are pretty comparable. And that is again his lowest end. If Sidious can overpower an augmented and enraged Maul with ease he'd blow all these feats out of the park.

Though it is amusing that an effort must be made on your part to bring Exar Kun up to an untrained Palpatine's level. stick out tongue The only inkling of influence we get is when Sidious mind tricks Saesee Tinn in the novel, however this is absent from the Canon movie - demonstrating it was unnecessary. Anything beyond that is baseless speculation.

And since we've already covered how said "nexus" was a product of Sidious' very existence, I'd ask for proof that it effected the Jedi's abilities as a whole. I've only seen instances in which it affected their ability to see the future.

I'd add to that that regardless, Sidious has moved to fast for Maul to see:
A dark sider, comparable in skill and superior in power to anyone of the B-Team, so it hardly matters.

But yeah this is totally better than Exar Kun stalemating against Ulic's speed and failing to blitz Vodo. thumb upErm both of those examples were taken from lightsaber engagements, where both opponents were using Force speed to augment their speed. You'll find that Maul speed is more than on level with the likes of Ulic, who again Kun stalemated against.My bad, that's what I meant when I said waves.Ever heard of the term generalisation? I assumed you to be learned enough (although I'm beginning to doubt that) to fill in the unimportant gaps. Unimportant because:
Though primitive they were still trained warriors armed with weapons that can harm, however minor.

Plagueis' presence does not at all alter the fact he waded through an omni-directional throng of armed hundreds of skilled individuals without being touched.

A Force pike differs from a lightsaber in terms of the surface area of it's killing points, nor were they at the highest setting.Altogether I fail to see how your attempt to lowball this feat makes Exar Kun capable of it. In fact, you've failed to provide any proof Kun is comparable to Sidious in terms of Force augmentation at all.You mean your 5-parter? I scrolled. thumb up

But care to explain how this statement made in regards to the Star Wars universe (read continuity) is not "new continuity"? Other than the fact it's old news...http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2570579909.pngThat's not a basis for doubting it, that's a basis for invalidating it if a contradiction exists, otherwise it's canon, because that is the status of the text.

And on the topic of contradictions, one thing I forgot to address.However you interpret the word, it doesn't make a difference. It doesn't change the fact that Exar Kun once was but no longer is, for whatever reason. Even if it doesn't indicate he has been replaced, as past tense it makes the statement non applicable to Sidious or anyone who came after Kun.

However your fooling yourself if you think this change was arbitary, and doesn't reflect the fact that applying it in present tense would be erroneous.And yet yours is somehow more valid. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif
So you accept that Exar Kun's accolades are intepretable and therefore irrelevant to this debate?

Though I would certainly agree with SunRazer on this front.

Trocity
I applaud Nai for only posting and backing characters that have been overwhelmingly sided against by every other poster in the spirit of debate, even though it's clear they lose.

Very... admirable.

Stigma
He should support Bane who in eyes of the many went a couple tiers down in the power scale recently.

Kotor3
I still have not seen one argument that makes it a clear win for Sidious.

Stigma
Yeah, me neither.

Sinious
How about this one: Sidious wins cause he is faster, smarter, more experienced, more skilled, more powerful and has better feats and accolades ??

Stigma
Originally posted by Sinious
How about this one: Sidious wins cause he is faster, smarter, more experienced, more skilled, more powerful and has better feats and accolades ??
Yeah. That will do it thumb up

Trocity
Odan-Urr is in the same tier as Sidious in terms of force power.

Kotor3
Originally posted by Sinious
How about this one: Sidious wins cause he is faster, smarter, more experienced, more skilled, more powerful and has better feats and accolades ?? More experienced, skilled, and better feats? Like what?

You guys killed me on this forum. Lets bring up Sidious records against the big dogs of his time:
1. Kills his master in his sleep. Great combat feat.
2. Loses to Mace one on one.
3. Stalemate between him and Yoda. (That because Yoda ran out of time before the clone boys would get there to assist Sidious)

Everyone else Sidious defeated Kun wouldn't?

Sorry this is a very close battle that could definitely go either way.

Trocity
It really isn't but your lowballing made me lol.

Stigma
EDIT: NVM

Stigma
Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if Sidious is the most powerful, that doesn't mean he wins.
So who do you think wins this fight, Neph?

SunRazer
Also, just saying, Sidious died before TCSWE was released and the Encyclopedia notes that as well. Regardless, the term "once" was never used for Palpatine, so it's not an excuse for Kun to say "he's dead", especially since his spirit lived on till after Palpatine's spirit death as well.

Sinious
Originally posted by Kotor3
More experienced, skilled, and better feats? Like what?

You guys killed me on this forum. Lets bring up Sidious records against the big dogs of his time:
1. Kills his master in his sleep. Great combat feat.
2. Loses to Mace one on one.
3. Stalemate between him and Yoda. (That because Yoda ran out of time before the clone boys would get there to assist Sidious)

Everyone else Sidious defeated Kun wouldn't?

Sorry this is a very close battle that could definitely go either way.

Let me retype your post for you.

Sidious has mastered all 7 forms and here are some of his superior feats of skill, speed and power:

1. Even as of TPM, he was considered to be his master's equal but didn't want to take risk by confronting him on even ground. He has managed to deceive him for years. No one said it is a great combat feat but it's impressive in different categories.
2. Sidious is already considered to be way above the likes of people who have stalemated Windu. The fight was circumstantial and is still a great showing for Sidious. He blitzed 2 Jedi Council members immediately and potentially one of the top 5 duelists of the order's golden age right after that. Afterwards, Sidious was fighting so fast that it was as if he was coming in and out of existence. If Mace performed against Kun the same way he performed in ROTS, Kun would be humiliated.
3. You're right, he stalemated Yoda, the most powerful Jedi ever lived until Luke neared his potential.
4. Sidious utterly toyed with Maul and Savage. In sabers only, Maul by himself would be a challenging fight for Kun and with Savage, Kun would be overwhelmed. Sidious however, humiliated them in their duel.
5. Sidious once fought 5 Jedi and slain 3 of them with a single strike.

You tell me which of these feats can Kun replicate.

This isn't a stomp, but Kun doesn't stand a chance.

Kotor3

Trocity
Sigh.

Stigma
Dunno. He makes pretty convicing arguments.

Sinious
You're the one who brought it up, not me. erm

And yes, Plagueis is more powerful than Kun but I won't go into that. This is about ROTS Sidious vs Kun and Kun is going down. thumb up


While GL did say that, the novelization filled in the details and it was only due to the unusual Vaapad amp Windu received that he was able to keep up with Sidious. So it can easily be interpreted as "You either have to be Yoda or in Windu's shoes in ROTS to compete with Sidious". So the novel isn't really being retconned by a higher source and a single quote(that contradicts with everything in the lore) isnt trashing the entire novel.





WTF does that even mean? laughing



I said Mace would humiliate Kun if he performed as good as he did in ROTS with a one time amp he got. In normal circumstances, Kun would defeat Mace imo.



The worst way of looking at it for Sidious is calling it a stalemate but since even a stalemate with Yoda is greater than anything Kun has done, its enough. Kun has nothing comparable since Yoda would trash Ulic.



Actually, all my statements are supported by both canon and legends sources while you don't even present any arguments and just ignore what I'm saying.

I didnt say they are close in the force. I said, in a lightsabers only fight(where force powers are not used), Maul would be a challenge for Kun and with Savage, Kun would lose.

He would defeat them in an all out fight, not in sabers. thumb up



No, Kun can't toy with the Zabrak brothers the way Sidious did. Kun can't stalemate Yoda(Yoda's retreat is not caused by him having limited time, Yoda fell down and Sidious was in an advantageous position. Yoda realized he can't win and left). Kun can't blitz Jedi Council members while fighting Mace Windu. Should I go on?

And for me to accept that Kun can actually replicate Sidious' feats, you're gonna have to give me some of his own accomplishments that can be compared to the feats I've listed. So far, you've given none.

Kotor3
@Sinious
I am not going to repeat everything Nai brought up. Its obvious you do not accept most of them as proving Kun's ability to win. There is really nothing more to bring up that he hasn't already. All of your other statements I will leave alone.

Anyway let us make this simple.

You stated Kun doesn't really have a chance. That is fine you are entitled to you own opinion. So tell me. Where do you place Kun in terms of the PT era? Where would he rank among the top force users of that era?

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