Oregon Now Allowing 15 yr. olds to get a sex change without parental consent

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Surtur
So yup, I'm hoping whoever wrote this has a gross misunderstanding of the issue because this can't be right.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/09/oregon-allowing-15-year-olds-to-get-state-subsidized-sex-change-operations/


15 yr. olds can get a sex change without parental consent...AND the state health plan will cover it.

This can't be real can it? Surely they don't expect tax payers to pay for a 15 yr. old kids sex change. Someone tell me this is just FOX news hysteria.

MF DELPH
I don't see how children should be allowed the autonomy to approve life changing surgery like that. Isn't that the whole point of parental consent/guardianship? That children aren't of the age/experience level to consent to things like this? Don't you have to be 18+ to get a tattoo?

Surtur
Yep. You can't get into an R rated movie or even drive, but you can sure go get your dick cut off without parental consent AND have other people foot the bill.

Any doctor willing to do this needs to be kept away from any hospital, and also any schools or playgrounds.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by MF DELPH
I don't see how children should be allowed the autonomy to approve life changing surgery like that. Isn't that the whole point of parental consent/guardianship? That children aren't of the age/experience level to consent to things like this? Don't you have to be 18+ to get a tattoo?

Ah but liberals think children do not belong to their parents. Anything goes now.

N3qtpdSQox0

Lek Kuen
The medical Age of consent in Oregon is 15 for all procedures. This was a newly covered aspect of medical plans and as such the same age applies as all other procedures.

Could 15 be too young? Maybe. But it's not them specifically targeting this with the law, the law was already in place about age.

Time-Immemorial
Hey if its legal and it feels good at the time, do it, no matter what! laughing out loud

psmith81992
This is the the left's attempt to equate change with progress. So stupid.

Astner
Why just not convince them that reincarnation is real and then hand them a cyanide pill?

Surtur
I don't even understand how they could even expect tax payers to pay for a sex change. That just blows my mind more then anything else. I mean, they tried to give excuses like "we are trying to get less suicides" for why the parental consent isn't needed. I'd love to hear the excuse about why other people need to foot the bill for a totally unnecessary procedure.

Sex changes should not of even been included in the types of procedures that get paid for via the health care plan.

Flyattractor
Its been a long LONG time since the "tax payers" have had any say in what their taxes go towards paying.

Gadabout
This is so insane...I could not even read the full article.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Surtur
I don't even understand how they could even expect tax payers to pay for a sex change. That just blows my mind more then anything else. I mean, they tried to give excuses like "we are trying to get less suicides" for why the parental consent isn't needed. I'd love to hear the excuse about why other people need to foot the bill for a totally unnecessary procedure.

Sex changes should not of even been included in the types of procedures that get paid for via the health care plan.

Its the same reason the left wants planned parent hood on the the peoples dime. They lost touch with reality and only their agenda is "right." Doesn't matter how radical it is. progressives always want progress to the left.

Surtur
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Its been a long LONG time since the "tax payers" have had any say in what their taxes go towards paying.

I could understand a necessary medical procedure. Even if it was to fix something that isn't life threatening. But holy hell..a sex change?

First of all the age should be 18, and second of all if a person wants a sex change they need to pay for it out of their own pocket.

Nemesis X
edit

eh nvm

Jesus McBurger
im all for transgender... but parental consent should still be played in

Jesus McBurger
hehe its kinda funny i just imagine a boy leaving his house and coming back and be like "HEY MOM!!! DAD!!!! I HAVE BOOBIES!!!"

MF DELPH
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Ah but liberals think children do not belong to their parents. Anything goes now.

N3qtpdSQox0

She's talking about the adage "It takes a village to raise a child", not literally that the state should have stewardship over your children. I actually agree with her, at least to the extent that children aren't simply raised by their parents. Other factors like their neighborhood/social environment/access to resources play a role in development as well. I have no quarrel with her.

Surtur
Originally posted by Jesus McBurger
im all for transgender... but parental consent should still be played in

Not to mention it should be paid for by the person getting the operation, not others. Even if they came out tomorrow and said "they now need parental consent" that just solves half the issue.

On the other hand..any parent who would consent to let a 15 yr. old get a sex change is to me..a bad parent. 15 yr. olds can be stupid as all hell and very few know what they truly want. I'd tell my child(if I had any) that straight up: wait until you are 18. You still want it then? Go for it.

Sancty
http://koin.com/2015/07/09/headline-irrational-on-oregon-transgender-coverage/





part of the requirements for getting the surgery
the transgender person would need to be on hormones for 12 months, live as the intended gender for 12 months, have 2 psychotherapists who deal with transgender issues approve the surgery.. it's not like a someone could just decide this on a whim.. obviously



also interesting:

http://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-starts-insurance-for-transgender-medical-procedures/

Originally posted by Jesus McBurger
hehe its kinda funny i just imagine a boy leaving his house and coming back and be like "HEY MOM!!! DAD!!!! I HAVE BOOBIES!!!"
that's the idea the article is going for imo. "15 year olds are fickle and impressionable! and now they can get a sex change without your knowledge!" ..except they would need to live as the other gender for a year first before this situation could even potentially occur. i wonder why the article didnt mention the requirements

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Surtur
So yup, I'm hoping whoever wrote this has a gross misunderstanding of the issue because this can't be right.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/09/oregon-allowing-15-year-olds-to-get-state-subsidized-sex-change-operations/


15 yr. olds can get a sex change without parental consent...AND the state health plan will cover it.

This can't be real can it? Surely they don't expect tax payers to pay for a 15 yr. old kids sex change. Someone tell me this is just FOX news hysteria.
Let's sidestep any issues of gender identification/sexuality and simply agree that if we allow 15 year olds to undergo any invasive surgery without parental consent, it opens the doors to all kinds of craziness.

Surtur
Originally posted by Sancty
http://koin.com/2015/07/09/headline-irrational-on-oregon-transgender-coverage/





part of the requirements for getting the surgery
the transgender person would need to be on hormones for 12 months, live as the intended gender for 12 months, have 2 psychotherapists who deal with transgender issues approve the surgery.. it's not like a someone could just decide this on a whim.. obviously



also interesting:

http://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-starts-insurance-for-transgender-medical-procedures/


that's the idea the article is going for imo. "15 year olds are fickle and impressionable! and now they can get a sex change without your knowledge!" ..except they would need to live as the other gender for a year first before this situation could even potentially occur. i wonder why the article didnt mention the requirements

Well I don't think anyone thought they could walk into a hospital a dude and come out a woman easy peasy. Requirements or not there is still the whole "15 year olds can get sex changes" and "don't need parents permission".

Which actually the requirements you just put? Just show how much of a clusterf*ck this whole idea is. How the hell is a 15 yr. old going to get on friggin hormones for a year, live as a different gender, and all that stuff..without his parents knowing?

You had the one woman in the article saying this is good because the parents might not be supportive and it might lead to suicide. Who the hell is this woman fooling with that nonsense? How the hell do you do all that without your parents knowing? So these reasons this chick is giving for why this is good..make no damn sense. Unless this is just targeting the niche group of super rich 15 yr. old kids who want a sex change.

So those requirements make all this actually a lot worse, because the friggin reason the woman used..is impossible. They are actually almost f*cking with teens now. You don't need mommy and daddy's permission...but you need to see a therapist, take hormones, and live as the other gender. You know, things you can easily keep from your parents.

Just wow, I kind of almost wish you hadn't posted that, because this takes the level of idiocy to nigh cosmic levels. Then again, people need to know this so they can avoid the state of Oregon. Hell I almost feel bad for the teens, because if you listen to that stupid woman they'd be thinking "oh awesome I can get this done without mom and dad knowing".

Jesus McBurger
Originally posted by Surtur
Not to mention it should be paid for by the person getting the operation, not others. Even if they came out tomorrow and said "they now need parental consent" that just solves half the issue.

On the other hand..any parent who would consent to let a 15 yr. old get a sex change is to me..a bad parent. 15 yr. olds can be stupid as all hell and very few know what they truly want. I'd tell my child(if I had any) that straight up: wait until you are 18. You still want it then? Go for it.
my moms friends daughter was born with a boys body but has always felt she was a girl. im talking all her life. and when she turned 16 she finlly got her operation. payed by her mom of course

Surtur
Originally posted by Jesus McBurger
my moms friends daughter was born with a boys body but has always felt she was a girl. im talking all her life. and when she turned 16 she finlly got her operation. payed by her mom of course

Well at least for this one the parents paid for it. I mean if they are going to do sex changes for 15-16 yr. olds fine, I wouldn't agree but meh, but that needs to come out of their pocket.

Unless we do things like..when a woman wants to go get her some bigger boobies the people foot the bill. Which I don't think happens. I hope it doesn't happen. Breast reduction? Sure, breasts that are too large can cause problems, but otherwise..

NemeBro
Originally posted by Sancty
http://koin.com/2015/07/09/headline-irrational-on-oregon-transgender-coverage/

part of the requirements for getting the surgery
the transgender person would need to be on hormones for 12 months, live as the intended gender for 12 months, have 2 psychotherapists who deal with transgender issues approve the surgery.. it's not like a someone could just decide this on a whim.. obviously


If two psychotherapists need to approve the surgery then parents shouldn't matter. They know more about the issue than the kid's dipshit parent with probably an average education does, so their approval matters more. thumb up

Time-Immemorial
Why the hell is this on the tax payers dime?

Q99
Originally posted by Surtur
So yup, I'm hoping whoever wrote this has a gross misunderstanding of the issue because this can't be right.

15 yr. olds can get a sex change without parental consent...AND the state health plan will cover it.

This can't be real can it? Surely they don't expect tax payers to pay for a 15 yr. old kids sex change. Someone tell me this is just FOX news hysteria.

Fun fact: Gender identity doesn't change over time. If someone has a male mind at 12, even if they have externally girl organs, they'll have it at 18, 24, and 70. Attempts to prevent someone who identifies as trans at a young age from being trans have universally failed, often leading to depression and suicide.

And it's easier on the body to get the treatment sooner, there are significant health benefits to doing the process at that point.


Basically, postponing it several years means the body effectively has to go through two puberties, one undoing the effect of the prior, which puts a lot more strain on the body. It's much easier to simply not go through the changes caused by being in one sex to begin with, and do it once when the body is young and most resilient/will take the procedure best.

So medically, it's a sound call.




Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Ah but liberals think children do not belong to their parents. Anything goes now.

People aren't property.

Parents are guardians, not owners.


Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Why the hell is this on the tax payers dime?

Because it's happening to a future tax payer, and tax payers take care of each other to their mutual benefit.

The tax revenue created by one person far exceeds the cost of this procedure, many times over. Keeping them healthy and happy is a financially good investment, regardless of what you may think of the procedure.

psmith81992
How is this a financially good investment? Basing your finances on how a person feels is fiscally irresponsible.

Bardock42
Originally posted by psmith81992
How is this a financially good investment? Basing your finances on how a person feels is fiscally irresponsible.

The mental and physical health of a person directly contributes to their economic potential, which is what societies need to thrive, therefore ensuring that health can be a sound investment from that POV.

psmith81992
Originally posted by Bardock42
The mental and physical health of a person directly contributes to their economic potential, which is what societies need to thrive, therefore ensuring that health can be a sound investment from that POV.

That's a good theory. But some risks are much bigger than others. I would argue that this is not a sound economic investment. Are we to just assume that there will be some benefit coming out of a "mentally and physically happy" person? It's a good story but I'd say for every 1 person that reaches his economic potential, 5 more are dipshits. So I disagree with this notion.

Bardock42
Originally posted by psmith81992
That's a good theory. But some risks are much bigger than others. I would argue that this is not a sound economic investment. Are we to just assume that there will be some benefit coming out of a "mentally and physically happy" person? It's a good story but I'd say for every 1 person that reaches his economic potential, 5 more are dipshits. So I disagree with this notion.

We should try to convince as many people as we can of our point of view and then have a vote on it.

psmith81992
Originally posted by Bardock42
We should try to convince as many people as we can of our point of view and then have a vote on it.

Sounds good to me.

Q99
Originally posted by psmith81992
That's a good theory. But some risks are much bigger than others. I would argue that this is not a sound economic investment. Are we to just assume that there will be some benefit coming out of a "mentally and physically happy" person? It's a good story but I'd say for every 1 person that reaches his economic potential, 5 more are dipshits. So I disagree with this notion.


One, someone who needs a sex change, will be getting one sooner or later. So it's not a question of 'if' so much, as whether it'll be sooner or later, and it is medically easier and better for their health earlier.

Two, sex change operations have one of the highest satisfaction rating of any operation. Around 97-98%. And it's not that we're all that medically good at it, either, it's just desired that much.


Three, non-depressed people do, indeed, work better. They're more likely to hold down jobs, perform better at work, and so on. Or, in this case, school, even. A kid who isn't depressed is going to pay more attention to school, is going to learn better, and thus has a good chance of getting a better job.

Four, dead people don't pay taxes. I did mention the high rates of suicide, yes? Being in a body that doesn't fit you is an intense unpleasant experience by every report, as is being treated as a gender that you are, mentally, not. This drastically increases quality-of-life for them.



Heck, the last sentence there alone, quality of life. If an operation drastically increases someone's quality of life that much, then I don't care specifically what it is, it sounds like a good investment. Plastic surgery to remove burn or acid scars would be another perfectly reasonable procedure that I also think should be covered.

psmith81992
Not that I'm doubting that number you gave me but I don't care about "satisfaction" rates in terms of sound financial investments. That's like you saying the same thing about welfare and using "high satisfaction rates" as the crux of your argument. Now obviously I am NOT comparing sex changes to welfare but the argument seems to be the same. Satisfaction=better chance to reach economic potential=sound financial investment(taxes).


I don't buy this argument. For every suicide, you have what, 5+ that don't commit suicide? I am specifically arguing the "dead people don't pay taxes" premise.


Let me bring up the welfare example again. AGAIN, I am not comparing the two. Theoretically, someone on welfare gets an increase in their quality of life because they have money to pay for stuff. But what if they don't want to work and just sit on welfare? Why should I care about their quality of life? There has to be more of an argument than "quality of life", because someone has to foot that bill.

Time-Immemorial
People never needed sex changes 100 years ago. It's because all the chemicals and hormones that are jammed into our food, air and water that screws people up. No one thinks about that though.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Bardock42
The mental and physical health of a person directly contributes to their economic potential, which is what societies need to thrive, therefore ensuring that health can be a sound investment from that POV.

The amount it's going to cost to do gender re assignment grossly outnumbers a persons economic potential. Those surgery a cost hundreds of thousands. And no they should not be on other peoples dime.

Unless you think breast enlargement and any other elective surgery should as well.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The amount it's going to cost to do gender re assignment grossly outnumbers a persons economic potential. Those surgery a cost hundreds of thousands. And no they should not be on other peoples dime.

Unless you think breast enlargement and any other elective surgery should as well.

Actually they cost more like 10-50k. Male to female reassignment surgery being considerably cheaper than female to male.

I think reconstructive surgery after breast amputation should be covered by the public, if that helps you at all...

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually they cost more like 10-50k. Male to female reassignment surgery being considerably cheaper than female to male.

I think reconstructive surgery after breast amputation should be covered by the public, if that helps you at all...

Yes everything should be covered in your opinion. Why not just have staunch socialism/communism and let that run the world. How on earth can breast amputation be covered? Or did you mean augmentation?

Time-Immemorial
I'm also wondering when does it end with this progressive movement, at what point will they say enough is enough, society is screwed up as it is, why keep piling the shit?

psmith81992
Progressives are self proclaimed enlightened. They think any change is progress.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by psmith81992
Progressives are self proclaimed enlightened. They think any change is progress.

So it never ends?

Surtur
So holy shit, this is what the country has come to. Want your dick cut off? Tax payers cover it. Parental permission? Nah, the shrink has final say apparently. Since obviously the shrink raised the kids, clothed the kids, fed them, gave them a home.

And people think the tax payers should pay for this bullshit? No..just, no. You want you dick cut off, you foot the bill. You want something you NEED done? Fine.

This is utterly going too far and it's a problem if people don't see it. We are not talking about anything needed. No, it's not even the same as reconstructing a friggin boob if you had them removed due to cancer or something.

So if you got dick cancer and need it cut off then fine, paid for. Otherwise there is no excuse for this. Mental well being? So now every fat chick I know can go get free lipo, right? It would sure help their mental well being. I know some Italian chicks who would love a nosejob, their mental health would benefit too.

Time-Immemorial
The only two people on here actually taking side with this is someone from Germany and another with a identity crisis, others have wanted to side step the issue because they agree, but don't want to come out and say it.

Surtur
I dunno man, sounds like saying "well your soup only had one turd in it". Even one is going too far to me. But meh, hey I'm all for it if they will now provide free plastic surgery for everyone. What a wonderful country this would be if everyone could get free plastic surgery.

Girls could get themselves some new titties at age 15, what's not to love? But damn, if you think teachers are banging their students now just wait.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Surtur
I dunno man, sounds like saying "well your soup only had one turd in it". Even one is going too far to me. But meh, hey I'm all for it if they will now provide free plastic surgery for everyone. What a wonderful country this would be if everyone could get free plastic surgery.

Girls could get themselves some new titties at age 15., what's not to love? But damn, if you think teachers are banging their students now just wait.

Bardock thinks everything should be free and the government should take care of everyone. Its sad, because he's not alone, obviously.

Surtur
I wasn't aware Germany gave out free sex changes to 15 yr. olds. Learn something new everyday.

Time-Immemorial
That's my big question, when does this stop. If this should be free then so should everything else because this is elective. Food should be free, housing, movie tickets, gym memberships. The whole deal.

Surtur
I'd love for everything to be free. Of course, we'd need to all sell our souls to Satan in order to get enough money to even come close to doing that. But then who needs a soul?

But anyways, nobody even seems to get this is trolling the trans teens, so even the people supporting this make me scratch my damn head. Ignoring everything else, how in the hell does a teen do all this without a parent knowing? That was the big thing that silly woman was going on about "it will prevent suicides because parents won't have to know". If the kids parents wouldn't notice their child suddenly taking hormones and dressing like the opposite sex and all that..the least of their problems is the inability to get a sex change.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Surtur
I'd love for everything to be free. Of course, we'd need to all sell our souls to Satan in order to get enough money to even come close to doing that. But then who needs a soul?

But anyways, nobody even seems to get this is trolling the trans teens, so even the people supporting this make me scratch my damn head. Ignoring everything else, how in the hell does a teen do all this without a parent knowing? That was the big thing that silly woman was going on about "it will prevent suicides because parents won't have to know". If the kids parents wouldn't notice their child suddenly taking hormones and dressing like the opposite sex and all that..the least of their problems is the inability to get a sex change.

This whole prevent suicides thing is a cop out and an excuse they can use to fund their wacko thinking.

Surtur
I just think if you are going to argue this should be paid for by the tax payers because it would help with the "mental well being" of the person will just lead to all kinds of problems. Feeling you are in the wrong kind of body is not the only thing that can cause a person to have mental issues due to physical appearance.

But then of course you know what this leads to? People trying to say "well this thing is different then that other thing" to excuse this. If a person says a sex change should be free and I say then a boob job should too and they say it "isn't the same" it just shows the problem. I guarantee you some people would rationalize it that way.

Since..no, you can't even claim that. We have over 300 million people in this country, and some of them do have serious mental issues due to their own body images etc. But I could guarantee you some of the people supporting this would try to separate a sex change from the other types of cosmetic surgery and make no mistake: that is exactly what it is. So then not only do we have the contend with the ridiculousness of this whole idea in general, but then with the situation of trying to judge just what mental health issues should be covered when it comes to cosmetic surgery.

But for this to of even come into place at all just shows..it is getting out of hand. Keep in mind this happened back in January but for some reason it stayed hidden for months. I'm all for free stuff, who doesn't love free shit? But then it should all be free, anything to do with medical..whether it is needed or not. You can't tell one person they can get free cosmetic surgery to deal with their mental issues and yet another one that their mental issues just aren't good enough to warrant free surgery.

They also outright lie to people by claiming kids can get this done without parental permission, but conveniently leave out all the requirements that make that utterly impossible. If this was about preventing suicide due to the parents not understanding then they wouldn't force them to have to live as the other gender for a year and all that.

Newjak
Originally posted by Surtur
I just think if you are going to argue this should be paid for by the tax payers because it would help with the "mental well being" of the person will just lead to all kinds of problems. Feeling you are in the wrong kind of body is not the only thing that can cause a person to have mental issues due to physical appearance.

But then of course you know what this leads to? People trying to say "well this thing is different then that other thing" to excuse this. If a person says a sex change should be free and I say then a boob job should too and they say it "isn't the same" it just shows the problem. I guarantee you some people would rationalize it that way.

Since..no, you can't even claim that. We have over 300 million people in this country, and some of them do have serious mental issues due to their own body images etc. But I could guarantee you some of the people supporting this would try to separate a sex change from the other types of cosmetic surgery and make no mistake: that is exactly what it is. So then not only do we have the contend with the ridiculousness of this whole idea in general, but then with the situation of trying to judge just what mental health issues should be covered when it comes to cosmetic surgery.

But for this to of even come into place at all just shows..it is getting out of hand. Keep in mind this happened back in January but for some reason it stayed hidden for months. I'm all for free stuff, who doesn't love free shit? But then it should all be free, anything to do with medical..whether it is needed or not. You can't tell one person they can get free cosmetic surgery to deal with their mental issues and yet another one that their mental issues just aren't good enough to warrant free surgery.

They also outright lie to people by claiming kids can get this done without parental permission, but conveniently leave out all the requirements that make that utterly impossible. If this was about preventing suicide due to the parents not understanding then they wouldn't force them to have to live as the other gender for a year and all that. They are different though. Pretending they are the exact same is just as bad as pretending they are completely different. There is some overlap but I would think living as a different gender has a much higher strain on the mind then not having big enough boobs.

Also I think your confusing the idea of knowing with consent. All this means is that the child can do go through the steps without having to have parental permission that does not equate to the parent not knowing.

As for the topic itself. I don't know where I stand on it. From the sounds of it this stuff can be really intense for the person and getting the transformation earlier can help but this is a major life altering decision.

Personally I would rather leave it up to the people who know this topic better to decide what the best course of action is.

Surtur
Originally posted by Newjak
They are different though. Pretending they are the exact same is just as bad as pretending they are completely different. There is some overlap but I would think living as a different gender has a much higher strain on the mind then not having big enough boobs.

You just proved my point perfectly, because who the hell decides what level of strain a person is feeling, and which conditions merit more or less strain. That is why this is so silly. You'd essentially be telling people who get turned away that their aren't mentally unhealthy enough to receive free needless surgery, but these other people over there are mentally unhealthy enough so they get it.

I mean, I think that is actually some arrogance for us to sit down and now judge the mental strain of things. Especially since different people can be strained out by the same issue, but they all won't have similar levels of strain.

Oh and also how do you go about proving one person doesn't have the mental strain of a transgender? You couldn't even use statistics of studies involving other people to show people with transgender issues are more mentally unhealthy then(insert whatever other body issues might cause someone to want cosmetic surgery) because each individual is different. You can't generalize when it comes to mental health.

So you see the clusterf*ck that could already potentially come out of this? It could also lead to lawsuits, people who feel transgenders were given preferential treatment over people with other mental health issues. It could lead to all kinds of negative things that outweigh any positives that could ever come out of this.



I'm not confusing anything because this is exactly the way a lot of people defending this acted. Just look at the link to see the utter misdirection. You have a woman going on about how this is important to prevent suicide because the parents might not be supportive. But uh, they won't be supportive even if they don't have to give permission. I mean I don't want to pay for this, but even I find that a little bit cruel to make it seem like they can get this without parental permission easy peasy.

I mean hell, legally, couldn't a parent forbid their child from taking medicine that is not needed, like hormones? Or do we take away that right as well? What if they refuse to buy their child clothes for the opposite gender. Can't live as the opposite gender if you don't look the part, so what then? Parents are forced to buy specific clothes too?

Or what stops a parent from moving out of Oregon so their child can't do this? If I'm a parent and I am against my 15 yr. old kid getting a sex change and the friggin government tries to tell me they don't need my consent in Oregon, well that would be it for Oregon. We'd be gone the next day. This won't stop parents that are truly not supportive with this, not by a long shot. The parents vehemently against this would absolutely take such measures to prevent it. So what, we pass this in every state?



But at the end of the day we are still being expected to pay for a persons cosmetic surgery. Cosmetic surgery is cosmetic surgery. Just because it's a more major operation doesn't make it any less cosmetic surgery. I don't want to pay for a guys new vagina or a womans new boobs or this guys new pec implants or any of that.

I'm also very weary of any parent that would actually support this. This link is old, but I feel we should doing shit like this a LOT more:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2254924/Mother-Florida-abandoned-children-hotel-room-banned-having-babies.html

Why don't we do this more often?!?!?!?! They actually BANNED her from having kids for the duration of her probation(13 years) and the b*tch still said in court she wanted even more kids! She was hesitant to take a damn deal to keep her out of prison because she wanted to pump out even more children into this world for her to neglect, etc.

Henry_Pym
Tbf the reasoning behind it is sound, as puberty makes transgenderism far more difficult and I'd rather my taxes go toward helping children than another suicide prevention class.

That said I also think 16 should be considered adulthood, if you can drive a rolling death machine, you should be 100% considered an adult legally.

Just my opinion.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Tbf the reasoning behind it is sound, as puberty makes transgenderism far more difficult and I'd rather my taxes go toward helping children than another suicide prevention class.

That said I also think 16 should be considered adulthood, if you can drive a rolling death machine, you should be 100% considered an adult legally.

Just my opinion.

Somewhat. Physiologically, they aren't fully developed until almost 25, but for this, perhaps 15-16 is enough time for them to know.

Surtur
Okay just to note she was not specifically banned, it was just that if she got pregnant she'd be put back in prison. This needs to be done more, with men and women.

Surtur
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Tbf the reasoning behind it is sound, as puberty makes transgenderism far more difficult and I'd rather my taxes go toward helping children than another suicide prevention class.

That said I also think 16 should be considered adulthood, if you can drive a rolling death machine, you should be 100% considered an adult legally.

Just my opinion.

So uh if puberty makes transgenderism more difficult why can't it make..the myriad of other mental health issues related to your body more difficult? You see? Who gets to judge that? How do you get to say one child is going to have an easier time then another? Especially when some teens tend to hide how much they are truly suffering.

But we still end up with the point of: we are paying for their cosmetic surgery. Their bodies will not physically shut down if they fail to receive this.

Also, as I said: teens are dumb as f*ck. A 16 yr. isn't any more wise then a 15 yr. old, and make no mistake: a 16 yr. old isn't that wise to begin with. Plus you talk about driving a rolling death machine, but you realize these kids could get a sex change before they can get into a friggin R rated movie, right? They aren't even old enough to join the military, but they can sure make a life altering decision such as a sex change because..reasons. They can't buy a damn wine cooler until they are 21, but sex change is totally kosher.

I am all for trying to help those with any type of mental illness or mental health issues, but anything in life can be taken too far, and now we've seen it here with this. Changes need to be made before it spreads to the rest of the states. I can't even believe I'm even discussing a day when a 15 yr. old might be able to get a sex change without parental consent in this state, for free. A year ago I would of bet fairies and pixies have a better chance of being real..then that happening.

Henry_Pym
Originally posted by Surtur
So uh if puberty makes transgenderism more difficult why can't it make..the myriad of other mental health issues related to your body more difficult? You see? Who gets to judge that? How do you get to say one child is going to have an easier time then another? ... Did you not go through puberty?

The reason puberty makes it more difficult is because you physically chance and adapt the physical traits of your gender. No amount of hormones later will 100% fix that.

psmith81992
I thought California was insane. Oregon takes the cake in terms of taking it to 11.

Stealth Moose
Conservatives are so worried about what other people do with their bodies. No wonder they're shit when it comes to things that matter like economics and technology.

Henry_Pym
???

Yeah them dumb billionaires who own everything obviously don't know important stuff like economics

psmith81992
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Conservatives are so worried about what other people do with their bodies. No wonder they're shit when it comes to things that matter like economics and technology.
Total shit. Since most billionaires are conservatives. And if they know dick about economics, looks like the liberals know even less. Very poor, baseless statement on your part, made out of spite. And conservatives couldn't care less about other people's bodies, they're worried about footing the bill.

Bardock42
Originally posted by psmith81992
Total shit. Since most billionaires are conservatives. And if they know dick about economics, looks like the liberals know even less. Very poor, baseless statement on your part, made out of spite. And conservatives couldn't care less about other people's bodies, they're worried about footing the bill.

There is a difference between economics and business....they are different fields of study, and being good at one does not mean you'd be good at the other.

Henry_Pym
Originally posted by Bardock42
There is a difference between economics and business....they are different fields of study, and being good at one does not mean you'd be good at the other. being a billionaire pretty much guarentees you understand the economy.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
being a billionaire pretty much guarentees you understand the economy.

That's not true at all.

They are completely different skill sets (not to forget the extreme luck one needs to become a billionaire as well), and different billionaires disagree on what the best economic policy is constantly.

psmith81992
Originally posted by Bardock42
There is a difference between economics and business....they are different fields of study, and being good at one does not mean you'd be good at the other.

I know that. But when you throw out a baseless statement like "conservatives know shit about economics", you would usually have something to base this on. Also, you're implying liberals know ANYTHING about economics.

Bardock42
Originally posted by psmith81992
I know that. But when you throw out a baseless statement like "conservatives know shit about economics", you would usually have something to base this on. Also, you're implying liberals know ANYTHING about economics.

Did you just do the same thing you complained about?

psmith81992
Originally posted by Bardock42
Did you just do the same thing you complained about?

Yes I did. Honestly I wanted to see if someone would point out my hypocrisy while ignoring the post I quoted. Looks like you did.

Plus, the only stat I had to go by was this:


At least that's better than baseless don't you think?

Henry_Pym
Originally posted by Bardock42
That's not true at all.

They are completely different skill sets (not to forget the extreme luck one needs to become a billionaire as well), and different billionaires disagree on what the best economic policy is constantly. so in your opinion it's just luck? Ok I'll just be over here in reality.

Bardock42
Originally posted by psmith81992
Yes I did. Honestly I wanted to see if someone would point out my hypocrisy while ignoring the post I quoted. Looks like you did.

Plus, the only stat I had to go by was this:


At least that's better than baseless don't you think?

Well the post you quoted wasn't hypocritical....it may have been wrong, though I suppose someone could already argue that you misinterpreted it since there's a difference between saying the Republicans ARE shit at the economy vs. the Republicans KNOW shit about the economy, but that's really for Stealth Moose to clarify.

psmith81992
Read the last addition

Bardock42
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
so in your opinion it's just luck? Ok I'll just be over here in reality.

It's not just luck. But luck is a big aspect in it, starting from the circumstances of ones birth, to the way one actually makes the money. A lot of people succesful at business admit to the luck that plays a part in that success, for billionaires in particular. So you are misinterpreting what I said, being smart and hardworking may be a necessary condition of becoming a billionaire, but it is not a sufficient one.

Bardock42
Originally posted by psmith81992
Read the last addition

I think I already explained to you (and I believe you agreed), how being a billionaire does not make you an expert on the economy. But even if it did, your stat presumes that people support candidates who do the best for the economy of the country, when many people would argue that people support candidates that are most beneficial to them, which may very well be at the detriment of the economy.

psmith81992
thumb up



Honestly this seems a whole different discussion, who's been better for our economy: Conservatives or liberals. I don't feel like making another thread right now but if someone did, it would devolve pretty quickly. First we'd have to establish the president's leanings, then congress', then if we're giving the president credit or blame for things that happened on his watch, etc. It's going to be a thread of confirmation bias.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by psmith81992
Total shit. Since most billionaires are conservatives. And if they know dick about economics, looks like the liberals know even less. Very poor, baseless statement on your part, made out of spite. And conservatives couldn't care less about other people's bodies, they're worried about footing the bill.
I see your Donald Trump and raise you a Warren Buffet. 133

psmith81992
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I see your Donald Trump and raise you a Warren Buffet. 133

I see your Warren Buffet and raise you Carlos Sims.

To be fair, Trump has given to democrats and Buffet has given to Democrats and Buffet has given to republicans.

Surtur
I can understand now why some people in other countries don't like us. We act like our way of doing things is the best, that our way of life is the way the world should be. Our President goes out and talks about how we are the most "respected" country in the world. We do all that..and then do some shit like this.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
... Did you not go through puberty?

The reason puberty makes it more difficult is because you physically chance and adapt the physical traits of your gender. No amount of hormones later will 100% fix that.

But that isn't what I asked. What I asked is if you feel puberty can make other mental health issues(related to body image) a lot worse? It would be weird to me if you would say no to that.

Oh, and did you know transgender people are not the only group that belong to the "I self identify as something else"? Did you know there is this new(well probably not new) thing where people get plastic surgery to look more like a celebrity. I'm serious, these people have mental issues to the point they feel they can't truly live life unless they look like a celebrity. I am not talking about people having a similar look, I'm am talking people so mentally disturbed..they do not feel comfortable in their own skin until they get the surgery done. I mean I could show you a picture of the dude who got surgery to look like Kim Kardashian...but I don't want to be cruel to you because it is god damn disturbing.

So what do we do with those people? Do we say this form of self identification is inferior to the transgenders? So then who decides what cases deserve free surgery and which cases don't? Therapists? See because the problem with that is not even all therapists can even agree about transgender issues, in terms of if it is actually a symptom of someone being mentally ill or not.

Henry_Pym
I honestly don't care if cosmetic surgery is free, as I don't think medicine should be a free market affair. Ethically it's a nightmare, and in the end the town ends up covering the poor anyway.

Elective surgeries are a little more black/white ethically but honestly I'd rather not set up laws that block them for people who need them (reconstructive surgery and the like)

Shinobi Popcorn
So the issue is that 15+ year old Oregonians (Oregoners?) can get this surgery without parental consent...

At least to me, it seems silly to focus on this procedure instead of the actual wording of the law. Some people might think the ability to give consent for blood transfusions or organ donation is too much for a 15 year old.

psmith81992
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/19765202.jpg

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Shinobi Popcorn
So the issue is that 15+ year old Oregonians (Oregoners?) can get this surgery without parental consent...

At least to me, it seems silly to focus on this procedure instead of the actual wording of the law. Some people might think the ability to give consent for blood transfusions or organ donation is too much for a 15 year old.
Oregonites?

On the real, i think it might be "Oregons"

Time-Immemorial
The raging liberals here can only keep a lid on their goofiness for so long till it get just out of control.

I'd like one person to explain how this is justified. Without the "oh well dur it's for suicides."

Bardock42
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Oregonites?

On the real, i think it might be "Oregons"

Oreganos

jinXed by JaNx
NOPE no NOPE, that's all i have to say about that.

Newjak
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The raging liberals here can only keep a lid on their goofiness for so long till it get just out of control.

I'd like one person to explain how this is justified. Without the "oh well dur it's for suicides." That's like asking how to justify seatbelts without mentioning deaths from accidents related to not wearing seat belts. You can't just ignore a major reason for something because you do not like it or it hurts your position

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Newjak
That's like asking how to justify seatbelts without mentioning deaths from accidents related to not wearing seat belts. You can't just ignore a major reason for something because you do not like it or it hurts your position
thumb up

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Newjak
That's like asking how to justify seatbelts without mentioning deaths from accidents related to not wearing seat belts. You can't just ignore a major reason for something because you do not like it or it hurts your position

Yes because seat belts and minor sex changes without parents consent on your dime is the same as seat belts. Aweful example.

Henry_Pym
Dude, you just sound dumb, you're acting like if this was illegal the money is coming back to you.

Surtur
Originally posted by Newjak
That's like asking how to justify seatbelts without mentioning deaths from accidents related to not wearing seat belts. You can't just ignore a major reason for something because you do not like it or it hurts your position

Dude, you can talk about major reasons, that is fine. As long as you do not ignore all the major reasons this is a clusterf*ck. Don't act like one side has major reasons for wanting this, but the other side doesn't have any for thinking it is silly.

Also I realize some people here have varying opinions on politics, but I guess I was naive to expect that most people here would find this silly. Here we have folks defending the right for a 15 yr. old to get a free sex change paid for by the state, and then comparing it to asking people to justify a seat belt. Without a seat belt, you could die in an accident. You won't accidentally die without a sex change. But I'm sure there will still be a reason you feel that was a valid comparison.

Time-Immemorial
Pretty good point

Bardock42
You were talking on a public forum...so...yes.

Newjak
Originally posted by Surtur
Dude, you can talk about major reasons, that is fine. As long as you do not ignore all the major reasons this is a clusterf*ck. Don't act like one side has major reasons for wanting this, but the other side doesn't have any for thinking it is silly.

Also I realize some people here have varying opinions on politics, but I guess I was naive to expect that most people here would find this silly. Here we have folks defending the right for a 15 yr. old to get a free sex change paid for by the state, and then comparing it to asking people to justify a seat belt. Without a seat belt, you could die in an accident. You won't accidentally die without a sex change. But I'm sure there will still be a reason you feel that was a valid comparison. My point comparing it to seat belts is without acknowledging the suicide rates and just dismissing them as a none point you are trying to take away a key component of the argument.

Also I would like to be clear. This is a complex issue. I am extremely hesitant to say any 15 year should be allowed to make such a large life changing decision. I wouldn't my kid get a tattoo because of how young and easily influenced they are.

Still even a quick Google search shows the high rate of suicide attempts among Trans people so it is an issue. Do if there is data to support that this helps that problem then what is the problem I would be concerned if it was somwthing could do on a whim but the people instituting this law seem to be making it a long process to help test if this is the best thing for the child. So I don't see the problem right now for doing this.

Time-Immemorial
You had no point comparing this to wearing seat belts. It was an abysmal failure you tried and didn't work.

psmith81992
Actually he had a pretty good argument.

Time-Immemorial
Death rates in automobile crashes without occupants wearing seatbelts vastly outnumbers the small amount of suicides in this small minority group.

Omega Vision
He wasn't saying they were proportionately equivalent. That wasn't his argument at all. It would equally irrelevant to his point if suicides by transgendered individuals exceeded deaths caused by not wearing seatbelts in auto accidents.

He was saying that to ignore the actual problem of suicides caused by trans people feeling like they're in the wrong body simply because the phenomenon is inconvenient for those who believe sex changes are frivolous would be the same as a seatbelt hater ignoring the deaths caused by driving without one. For the logic of this argument, the numbers involved in either case are all but irrelevant. He could have chosen a more propinquitous analogy, but you're attacking the analogy rather than the logic behind it.

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