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Battle of the badass females, which team comes out victorious? Every combatant is in their prime (bar Ahsoka, this is her Clone Wars iteration). Fight takes place in the Petranaki arena - 20 feet apart.

Either way.

Ahsoka.

Team 1.

Originally posted by Selenial
Team 1. Reasons, Sel?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Reasons, Sel?

Shaak Ti vs Meetra would be a good fight, even if Meetra innevitably wins.

Luminara and Ahsoka would shit on Leneer tbh, either one of them could probably solo her mmm

Shaak and Luminara vs Meetra and Aryn might be a split. In this scenario team 1 wins every single time due to numbers

Undecided atm

https://33.media.tumblr.com/a6cdc9af7c9b67f1b60429f66c6283a8/tumblr_mj0v7fv7M91r8m1kho1_250.gif

Originally posted by Selenial


Luminara and Ahsoka would shit on Leneer tbh, either one of them could probably solo her mmm

Second funniest thing I've read all day after Neph saying Kas'im can beat Canon Vos

Team 1

Originally posted by carthage
Second funniest thing I've read all day after Neph saying Kas'im can beat Canon Vos

The solo thing was a joke, but since the OP doesn't stipulate that Leneer is in her rage mode, there's no reason to think she could take Luminara and Ahsoka at the same time.

She was enraged in her first fight with Malgus. In the second she was not, she fought well with a blade but was entirely outclassed with the Force. She can't abuse a force advantage here. Luminara stands (while underrated) as one of the greatest duelists of all time, and Ahsoka really isn't bad. To suggest she can beat them both is foolhardy.

Honestly I stand by the fact I think Luminara could beat her alone.

Originally posted by Selenial
The solo thing was a joke, but since the OP doesn't stipulate that Leneer is in her rage mode, there's no reason to think she could take Luminara and Ahsoka at the same time.

She was enraged in her first fight with Malgus. In the second she was not, she fought well with a blade but was entirely outclassed with the Force. She can't abuse a force advantage here. Luminara stands (while underrated) as one of the greatest duelists of all time, and Ahsoka really isn't bad. To suggest she can beat them both is foolhardy.

Honestly I stand by the fact I think Luminara could beat her alone.

She doesn't need to be in 'rage mode' to beat Luminara. She fought evenly with Darth Malgus in the first instance and lost the second only due to lightning. Luminara lost her match to Ventress, and even without her usual mindset would be ragdolled by Aryn's power if she utilizes her telekinesis which she did against another Sith that shattered statues. Her physical strength was enough to hurl Malgus 20 meters, and she has better force feats than either. Given that she abandoned the Jedi order, there isn't any reason to assume she wouldn't hesitate to user her telekinesis while pressed. Luminara doesn't have any feats to suggest she could beat someone who fought evenly with Malgus

Team 2.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Team 2. Reasons, AP?

:mmm: I feel that Shaak Ti could give either a fight as of TFU. I think she can take down Meetra faster than Aryn could take down either Ahsoka or Lumi(who have excellent symbiosis)

I'm going with team 1.

Both members of team 2 have greater feats than any on team 1, taking out and equating bonified Sith Lords, some of the most powerful ever to boot, is simply much more impressive.

If I'm recalling Deceived correctly, Aryn performed better against Malgus when she was centered than when she was enraged.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Both members of team 2 have greater feats than any on team 1, taking out and equating bonified Sith Lords, some of the most powerful ever to boot, is simply much more impressive.

While I don't disagree with the last part of your statement. The Force powers that Shaak Ti wields are much more formidable than those of the Jedi Exile.

Consider the following:

Shaak Ti is a regarded as a Jedi of "legendary" strength in the Force prior to her prime(TFU)

She's so attuned to the Force that she's able to turn a neutral Force aligned planet into one of light. After her death Maris and the felucians were driven to the Dark Side due to this.

With these two statements of power, we see that Ti is incredibly powerful in the Force. I'll admit that the gap between Ti and Leneer is quite close, however, when compared to Meetra Surik as she appeared in The Revan Novel(which is where her TK feats come from) there is a very noticeable polarity in Power.

Add to this, the incontrovertible fact that Ti's abilities are more belligerent and developed for combat, and what you find is that Meetra, more so than Aryn, is simply not going to contest with Ti in a Force battle.


Another thing to note about this battle is, Symbiosis. Team Jedi has the "whip hand" so to speak, of Luminara Unduli, a Jedi who can work well with any Jedi. Add Shaak/Ahsoka into the mix, both of whom come from a race raised to work well in packs, and you get perfect synergy between a group of highly talented, and master duelists.

Overall this is a good fight in my humble opinion.


Edit: huh. Not bad for someone who just slept for three hours.

Shaak isn't boasting any notable Force edge over the Exile if Traya on one of the galaxy's most potent dark side nexuses didn't. And that was before the Exile hit her prime. Sure, Surik's Force powers are usually augmentative/passive/involuntary, as opposed to the more active displays of most Force practitioners including Shaak, but regardless, Shaak isn't boasting any meaningful Force edge, and she's going down in a duel. It's quite the fight, though.

I'm not confident Aryn can beat Luminara and Ahsoka together, but I'm also unsure if the duo can necessarily beat her, since Luminara's style isn't particularly renowned for its defensive abilities.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Shaak isn't boasting any notable Force edge over the Exile if Traya on one of the galaxy's most potent dark side nexuses didn't.

Yes, although you forget that Meetra was very much, still bonded with Kreia. Thusly, the argument of whether she was hindered or not, is rather debatable. Likewise, the extent of which Kreia used her force powers to is also up for debate. Unless of course I'm missing a large piece of the puzzle, that states the battle included both blades and powers? Which is a probability.

Moreover, it raises the question of whether or not Meetra was amplified on Malachor due to her bond with Kreia.



While I concur with your point about the Exile's passive abilities. I disagree with rest. As I said above: the extent to which Kreia used her abilities in that battle is up for debate.

Meanwhile, we Have Shaak Ti using Force Kinetite to incapacitated Starkiller, someone with incredible endurance, and hitting him with Telekinetic blasts. That's pretty impressive, no?

Regardless, you misunderstand. Shaak has a means to keep Meetra at bay via Kinetite and TK blasts. This could wear Surik out.

Let's also not forget that Surik was taken down, rather easily, by a controlled burst of lightning on Nar Shaddaa. If Ti hits her with a more powerful attack, such as Kinetite, she may very well win.



Debatable. If we compare their respective opponents, as duelists. Shaak Ti's faced far more talented warriors than Meetra. Holding her own against Grievous is more impressive than beating someone like Sion or Nihilus, both of whom have little, to no real skill with the blade. At best, Atris and Traya are the sole two who can compare to Starkiller in a duel. And this is being generous.







Her Form is Soresu and it has been compared to Dooku's mastery of Makashi. But I understand your point.

I'm off to embrace sleep now.

It was "believed" by Jedi that Luminara could easily match the skills of the Count, but that's obviously false seeing as she couldn't even best Ventress. And many Jedi "believed" Anoon Bondara was the most skilled Jedi in the Order as well.

Why are you citing Surik's Nar Shaddaa iteration when it is hugely far from her prime?

Also, proof the Bond was still intact on Malachor V? If it was, Surik would've suffered intense pain in severing Traya's hand, but she didn't.

And Surik's feats are banked more on the extremely negative circumstances she had to endure as opposed to the skill of her opponents.

EDIT: Ah, typo on my part. I meant "offensive abilities" of Luminara, obviously, since she uses Form III.

If amped Darth Traya and amped Darth Nyriss' force attacks couldn't defeat the Exile's force defenses how is Shaak Ti?

@SunRazer, Luminara is also stated to be proficient in Form V, IIRC. Plus, the fact that Ahsoka and Luminara have dueled together means they'd be more familiar with each others forms and thus would likely produce an even more effective offense against Aryn than they did against Ventress.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If amped Darth Traya and amped Darth Nyriss' force attacks couldn't defeat the Exile's force defenses how is Shaak Ti?

You need to have another look at those fights it seems.

Nyriss chained a single bolt into her fighting against Surik, it wasn't a concentrated blast and it still took Meetra off her feet. She was wounded and Nyriss was amped, but that's not enough to suggest Meetra could tank a full assault from Nyriss without considerable effort.

As for Traya... Traya could not rag-doll Meetra due to her power levels, and her best attacks in duels come from her telekinesis. Take out the crush or choke, and all she can do is force push her or use lightning. Traya can use lightning but she has no feats in it, the mere fact she never uses it is probably proof her lightning isn't on the level of her TK.

If Surik was pushed back in the force by Traya using Telekinesis, that wouldn't have a huge effect on the fight other than wounding Surik. If however Shaak Ti did it, (which she can unless you're suggesting Surik > Starkiller) then she can press the offensive with a devastating and controlled attack. She's far more proficient with a blade than Traya so that opening means more to her. Not to mention she could follow up with an attack of Kinetite.

Simply suggesting that Traya > Shaak in the force therefore Shaak can't harm Surik is idiotic beyond belief. You need to look at fights in far more detail than power level.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It was "believed" by Jedi that Luminara could easily match the skills of the Count, but that's obviously false seeing as she couldn't even best Ventress. And many Jedi "believed" Anoon Bondara was the most skilled Jedi in the Order as well.

Yet he died to Maul and Luminara failed to defeat Ventress. Your point is acknowledged. However, in Luminara's case, Ventress had already accomplished several feats prior to their fights. Including stalemating Skywalker on Yavin until he drew on the Dark Side to best her. Too, you neglect the clear fact that Luminara was quite hindered by eye injury. Thus affecting her combative ability.



The order in which Surik visit the planets is randomized, if that's what you're referring too, ergo, Nar Shaddaa could have been her last planet before leaving to dantooine.

If you're referring to her Revan Novel and Malachor incarnations, then allow me to retort with this:

There is no legitimate or "true" way of going to each planet. This is the player's choice. At best, Nova, the planets she visited first is arguable.

Secondly, Meetra has no other showings or quotes, citing her Force Barrier/ Endurance in combat, as of Malachor or Revan.



I was referring to the DS ending on Dantooine. I had forgotten if it was LS or DS.

However, as stated by Kreia and several other masters, a bond can't truly be broken. One of them must either fall, or die.

And as we know, Kreia never fell, she simply hid in plain sight.





True, however, skill is a main factor in many battles. And while her survival of such disadvantageous battles is impressive, her opponents are not as skilled as Starkiller.



Hakuna Matata.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The order in which Surik visit the planets is randomized, if that's what you're referring too, ergo, Nar Shaddaa could have been her last planet before leaving to dantooine.


That's wrong tbh. Nar Shadaa was her first planet after Telos IV.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's wrong tbh. Nar Shadaa was her first planet after Telos IV.

Quote please.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Quote please.

The Prima Guide's order tbh

Originally posted by Selenial
The Prima Guide's order tbh

Scan?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Scan?

Excuse it being upside down, can't bother taking the picture again

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Excuse it being upside down, can't bother taking the picture again

Much appreciated. I found out two new things. One, I stand corrected. Two my neck can bend in ways it wasn't meant to bend.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yet he died to Maul and Luminara failed to defeat Ventress. Your point is acknowledged. However, in Luminara's case, Ventress had already accomplished several feats prior to their fights. Including stalemating Skywalker on Yavin until he drew on the Dark Side to best her. Too, you neglect the clear fact that Luminara was quite hindered by eye injury. Thus affecting her combative ability.

Yavin was a dark side nexus, though. Regardless, Luminara was still capable of recognizing Ventress's fighting style even when her eye was blinded, and she seemed to recover somewhat towards the end of their initial exchange. That, and she can see through the Force to some degree, IIRC.



Nar Shaddaa could've also been the first one to be visited, and as you've been shown by other posters here, it's the first one in the Prima Guide's order, which is probably the closest thing we have to a canonical order.



I recommend you check my Meetra thread, because the Prima Guide does reference her Barrier.



Nothing suggests the Bond remained until Kreia's death, because if it had been, Surik would not be able to wound her and sever her hand without consequences.



Skill is obviously a factor in Meetra's fights too, considering the extremity of the circumstances that are stacked against her.

Nova, their bond remained. I mean she literally says "our bond remains but that is all,"... The fact that she harmed Traya didn't matter since Traya says in the heat of battle they could suffer injuries and their minds would be prepared to the point they wouldn't effect each other.

However I still disagree with Fated's idea, Surik wouldn't be boosted by Kreia. Even if Kreia provided some sort of amp, the Exile was the only thing keeping the other party members alive on the planet tbh, it would have balanced out.

I'm talking about Malachor, not Dantooine.

Also, even if Traya could naturally shield the Exile from her pain, would she really do that in a scenario where she clearly states that she's willing to kill the Exile and that they're both meant to go out? Not to mention actually shielding the pain of having your hand cut off by a lightsaber isn't particularly easy, either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm talking about Malachor, not Dantooine.

Also, even if Traya could naturally shield the Exile from her pain, would she really do that in a scenario where she clearly states that she's willing to kill the Exile and that they're both meant to go out? Not to mention actually shielding the pain of having your hand cut off by a lightsaber isn't particularly easy, either.

The Exile would be shielding herself, however.

Im not sure there's any proof that the bond changed at all though. We know if someone falls to an opposite alignment the bond breaks, but Traya had been Dark the whole game and still maintained a bond.

Though I think the above is proof enough that the bond wouldn't transmit Dark Force Energy to boost Surik.

I'm pretty sure Traya mentions them shielding each other, not themselves.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yavin was a dark side nexus, though. .

There are several instances where the authors who have had the pleasure of portraying a character battle on Yavin, would actually state that the character was drawing on a Nexus. Exar Kun using the force, the Jedi students empowering Dorsk 81 so he could blast a number of Star Destroyers out of the sky etcetera. I see nothing to suggest that Ventress was amped.

Even if that were the case, wouldn't Anakin also benefit from the amplification of Yavin's energies?



Yes, she recognized the style because prior to injuring her eye, she and Ventress fought each other briefly.



A fair point.





I have read your respect thread, and while I appreciate the work put into it. I'm all the more skeptical about her barrier and even more so about the powers you added.

It seems very clear to me that the statements about her barrier are in regards to the player's options. For Example:



The full quote of the Prima guide is Listing the Mechanics of the Light Side Powers. In fact the vast majority of those quotes regarding the Exile's force ability, are not direct quotes in regards to her powers, they are optional, not at all fact.

Not to mention that those quotes often refer to the Exile's class which, as you know no doubt know, is controlled by the player.

Even if I were to take all those quote seriously, there's still the fact that she hasn't been seen "tanking" or "shrugging off" powerful Telekinetic attacks or Force Powers. This is a fact.

And her "immunity" as a Force Wound doesn't necessarily protect her against force powers.

Argue what you like about Force Enlightenment, yes this is impressive, but without proper showings of Force Barrier, we're left with little more than speculation.

And, my good friend, unless you believe that Meetra's barrier and power is superior to that of the secret apprentice, Starkiller. I don't quite see any reason to continue debating the Barriers of those characters, when, at least in my humble opinion, there's a clear superior.

In short: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoAPSBMQEKU



Sel, sort of answered this for me.



You misunderstand. her opponents, the most powerful among them, pale in lightsaber abilities when compared to Shaak's opponents.

You've got Atris, a woman with decent force abilities and a practitioner of Juyo.

You've got Visas, a highly untrained Jedi while under Nihlus.

You've got Sion, a man who is considered to be relatively unskilled by most, if not all debating boards.

Then Nihilus, who's best power is drain and TK, but what else is there in dueling ability? Which was what the fight between him and the Exile's forces was, a duel.

There's Traya, a woman with general knowledge of the seven forms and the force forms. A woman, who's knowledge of these forms depends on the player's preference for Guardian, Sentinel, Consular and their "advanced" classes.

Yes, the circumstances were stacked against her, but we don't quite know how she went about dealing with those circumstances. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You've got Atris, a woman with decent force abilities and a practitioner of Juyo.

You've got Visas, a highly untrained Jedi while under Nihlus.


Atris mastered Juyo, and therefore had a high level mastery in numerous other forms.

Visas was the second most powerful Sith in Nihilus' empire, which includes numerous Dark Jedi Masters all stated to have mastered numerous forms of melee combat. Not to mention she beat Visas while unarmed during the brutal sparring session Traya forced them into.

Originally posted by Selenial
Atris mastered Juyo, and therefore had a high level mastery in numerous other forms.

Mastered? it's never explicitly stated that she "mastered" Juyo. She's stated to be an excellent practitioner of Lightsaber combat, but not a master of the form.



Show me the quote stating that? Or is this just based around the assumption that "Visas was picked as his apprentice, therefore she's above everyone"?

I suppose it's a valid point, but i'm just curious if there's an actual quote.




I know, Sel. I also know that Visas isn't all that impressive in the grand scheme of things.

Shadow Hand/Sith Apprentice are second only to there master per KOTOR CG

On my phone, so I can't screen cap it, but the quote is referenced in the Exile Party and Bandon respect threads IIRC

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Mastered? it's never explicitly stated that she "mastered" Juyo. She's stated to be an excellent practitioner of Lightsaber combat, but not a master of the form.

Show me the quote stating that? Or is this just based around the assumption that "Visas was picked as his apprentice, therefore she's above everyone"?

I suppose it's a valid point, but i'm just curious if there's an actual quote.

I'm pretty sure it's said she mastered it somewhere mmm

There's a quote about Shadow Hand's in the KOTOR CG that says their power is second only to the Sith Master(nihilus)'s.

It's under her talents in the KOTOR CG. She's also called a lightsaber master in the Prima Guide

Deductive reasoning would lead us to conclude Juyo's her best form from these facts.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
There are several instances where the authors who have had the pleasure of portraying a character battle on Yavin, would actually state that the character was drawing on a Nexus. Exar Kun using the force, the Jedi students empowering Dorsk 81 so he could blast a number of Star Destroyers out of the sky etcetera. I see nothing to suggest that Ventress was amped.

Even if that were the case, wouldn't Anakin also benefit from the amplification of Yavin's energies?

It's true that we've had Jedi drawing off Yavin before, but I'd argue that that was before nexuses were fleshed out and detailed. But granted, Jedi hindrances on the nexus weren't fleshed out at the time of Anakin vs Ventress either.




No, she recognized the style after the gas went into her eye. Watch the fight again.



That quote wasn't even relevant to Barrier, lol.

However, the Prima Guide states the Exile can use Barrier and Energy Resistance to at least weaken Vrook's lightsaber assaults, and the Prima Guide also states she can use Valor, Aura and Barrier to "change the tide of any battle" - this isn't relevant to class mechanics either. The best part is that this is all prior to her learning Enlightenment, which would boost those powers even further.

Then there's Kreia telling you to absorb the powers of one of the Jedi Masters (including Vrook) with the Force, even when they're using Force Absorption. Yes, it's the DS-storyline, so it's not canon, but I accept it anyway on the basis of it being something that "could have" happened, just didn't necessarily happen in the canonical timeline.



Nobody mentioned this at all, lol. So that's a red herring.




I made no comparisons to Starkiller in my post, but what exactly are Marek (not Starkiller)'s Barrier and other defensive Force power feats as of his battle with Shaak Ti? He grew in power afterwards.



She's a talented user of Juyo, which also makes her a high-level master of multiple lightsaber forms. That, and she's stalemated Brianna, a life-trained combatant who blitzed all of her other Handmaiden sisters. Now, Brianna had already been trained for life as a combatant in numerous Echani martial arts (unarmed and with weapons) before being trained by the Exile, and at that point in time, she was the "last of the Handmaidens", in everything, including combat (the other Handmaidens mention this). Yet when she returned after being trained by the Exile, she blitzed them all (the screen cuts to black but you hear them all screaming in rapid succession - in cut content you get to choose whether to kill or stun them, but the blitz cutscene plays regardless IIRC). And Atris fought Brianna to an absolute standstill immediately after she stomped her sisters.



She's depicted in KotORCG artwork as having beaten and slain HK series assassin droids, and as I recall it was a HK-47 assassin droid model? The KotORCG also stats that she's second to Nihilus in mastery of the dark side.



Appealing to the majority is a great way to cover up a lack of a case. Sion one-shotted Kreia as of the Harbinger, and alongside Atton Rand before he was trained and Surik before she really regained her Force ability, Kreia's beaten Sith Assassins ("specialized Jedi butchers" who were ambushing her and feeding off her Force-sensitivity to become stronger.

He's also stated repeatedly to be one of the strongest and most powerful Sith of the era, but I think that goes without saying.



Kreia knows Force Channel as well as Shii-Cho, Makashi and Soresu regardless of your class. She also knows Trakata based on KotORCG. As for her knowledge of the remaining forms being different depending on your class, that doesn't make any difference. It just means she knew them all and only revealed a select amount.



She won by virtue of combat ability, which is all that matters.

Continued





It makes a great deal of difference, unless you choose to ignore canon in favor of something else. We know very little about the Exile's path, I've emailed drew asking him if the Exile's lightsaber color was any indication of her class and he responded by saying that he chose it because "it seemed like the most light sided color"

The fact remains, that Kreia's knowledge of the forms, as well as those of the Jedi Masters,(with the exception of Atris), are dictated by the player's choice, that is a fact.

Anything else is just speculation, Nova.





Yes, quite like Shaak Ti had a powerful and extremely skilled duelist like Starkiller on the defensive right? a guy who met the astonishing speed of Rahm Kota? sparred Vader to the brink of exhaustion. completely eviscerated Kazdan Paratus and bested Proxy several times.

@Fated -



Indeed.



You're hurting your argument by bringing this up. This is just proof that Luminara wasn't really hindered dramatically against Ventress.



Again, I'm not sure how you regard game mechanic-esque quotes from the Prima Guide, but I'm more lenient to them if only for the sake of providing material for more obscure characters (Vrook and Atris, for instance).



That's a pretty good feat. The other feats aren't Barrier, though, they're just durability.



Completely irrelevant.



Based on what? It's listed as her primary talent anyway, so there's credence lent to the idea of her having mastered the form.



Shaak isn't facing the Exile's opponents. She's facing the Exile herself, and Surik's gone down as one of the greatest Jedi heroes in history.



Right, but you neglected to mention that before, either out of ignorance or out of trying to make Atris seem less impressive. I was merely giving more material to make Atris's capabilities clearer and more impressive.



That's what I said. It doesn't have anything to do with the point anyway.



It's not in the Visas entry, it's in the Shadow Hand entry.



Quite so.



What are you implying? That she tired as a result of engaging them? Nothing implies that.



Which isn't relevant unless you can prove that she tired or weakened as a result of fighting them. The point is that she's fairly skilled even at this point in time.



Kreia doesn't share the Exile's benefits because she's not a Wound in the Force, and by her own admission she does not know of a technique to defend against that type of Drain.



No, it would just negate it if it was used on her (Meetra). Kreia, though? She's not a Wound in the Force, nor does she possess a defense against Drain by her own admission, and she's fallen victim to the technique before.



He is canonically one of the top warriors of his era, lol.

I'm not ignoring canon, lmao. The fact is that she knows the techniques but simply never disclosed it to the Exile, unless you can prove otherwise. She knew the techniques in another "continuity', if you like, of the exact same circumstances, only it just didn't happen in the canonical Legends continuity. I accept feats from the DS versions as long as there is no drastic contradiction, because it's still what "could have" occurred, but what did not necessarily actually occur.



So what? That doesn't suggest they don't know those forms regardless, lol.



Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't have happened if we've already received indication of its possibility.



Marek wasn't "extremely skilled" at that point in time. Marek admitted that Vader had held back or he had capitulated every time in their spars, and he never saw Vader's full ability until their final duel.

Rahm Kota's astonishing speed delivered him a K.O. by Boba Fett's punch.

Proxy doesn't have feats to suggest he's more skilled than somebody you lowball like Sion.

As for Paratus, I don't recall Marek "completely eviscerating" him in lightsaber combat. As I recall, Marek was giving ground and losing the duel, but Paratus sent his manequins to attack Marek instead, which resulted in Galen destroying them and Paratus' insanity kicking in, which left him crying and defenseless as Galen killed him with the Force.

Warning: I can't edit my post at all so there will be some mistakes on my part. Apologies

Arguing whether or not legends content is less or more canon than other legends content is the epitome of nihilism. None of legends is canon and legends itself has no rules we must conform to. Leland Chee once made the excellent observation that everything in Star Wars 'canon' carried weight and was not rendered irrelevant due to a lack of conforming to other works, specifically he referred to how the novelisations of the movies were simply other views of what happened in the feature films.

Revan isn't a Jedi guardian, consular, or sentinel in his fleshed out appearances, instead he is a very powerful and skilled mix of all three. By what logic do we need employ the same out-dated formula to the Exile when Revan proves that such game mechanics are almost entirely irrelevant to anything bar gameplay.

Furthermore a solid case for the Exile primarily being a master swordswoman in contrast to the more powerful Revan being a Force powerhouse, can definitely be made.

Can't quote the post directly so I'll have to do this the old fashioned way.



No, she wasn't, and Soresu was a factor in that IMO.




That's because the game some cut content out and changed things after the Guide was released/the Guide never changed them back.



Kreia actually states in her TP lesson to the Exile that she can defeat Vrook by using allies. Again, a post-guide change.



Not as good as the other one, tbh.




What the heck does Grievous have to do with Galen's Pushes? And Shaak didn't do particularly well against Grievous anyway.




Fightsaber states that any practitioner of Juyo is a high-level master of multiple forms. Atris is a practitioner of Juyo, so regardless of whether or not she mastered Juyo, she's a high-level master of at least two other forms.



She was also supposedly a rival of Mace and Obi-Wan as a swordsman, which obviously isn't the case.




Yes, it was. You either neglected to mention it because you didn't know about it, or intentionally neglected it because you wanted to make her look impressive. Otherwise, why wouldn't you mention her one combat feat, and a notable one at that?



Which isn't at all relevant to my point of Atris stalemating Brianna.



You can keep lobbing the red herrings up and I'll keep knocking them back down. I never said anything about rank equals power, but the quote in the Shadow Hand entry specifically states she's second only to Nihilus, lol.




We know that she was capable of combatively defeating them, which is what matters.



Really? You're leaving an awful lot of information out, then.



Visas has already displayed resistances to Nihilus' Drain on Katarr, and Mandalore probably didn't even register to Nihilus if the hype about him is even remotely accurate.



What they taught her =/= what they know. It's entirely possible and more likely that they knew all of it and only taught the Exile specific techniques based on her class/order of planets (a mechanic you also overlooked, but regardless, it doesn't stop their knowledge of various forms from being canon).



I'm talking about drastic power contradictions, obviously. I would've thought that anybody would innately recognize that the DS storyline would have story differences to the LS storyline.



That's relative to the strength of his opponent.



Survived what onslaught?



That doesn't explain your stance on Proxy. How is Proxy better than Sion, especially since the Exile beat him repeatedly on one of the most powerful dark side nexuses in the galaxy.



That has nothing to do with skill. And Paratus isn't notably powerful unless I missed something, though his construction of the junk warriors is pretty solid. Not particularly impressive as a showing of power, though, more like mastery. And please don't mention Vader stating Paratus is far more powerful than Galen as evidence of Paratus' power.



Kazdan isn't particularly notable in skill or power anyway. Not seeing this being as good as the Exile's skill feats at all.



We can agree to disagree if you would like to. As it stands, the Exile is probably slightly more skilled than Shaak and has a number of unique traits/versatility to offer her the slight edge.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Warning: I can't edit my post at all so there will be some mistakes on my part. Apologies

Likewise. I meant to say "cut some content out" but ended up getting out "some cut content out".

Originally posted by AncientPower
Arguing whether or not legends content is less or more canon than other legends content is the epitome of nihilism.

I never said that Legends canon was non-canonical, I said the the Game mechanics mentioned by Nova, were non-canonical. I reiterate, game mechanics. I also pointed out the inconsistencies of the Prima guide, which are also considered non-canonical yes?





No, not in the new continuity, but Legends is referred to as "Legends" because it is treated as an old and completely different continuity from new one. This is a fact.



Common sense would dictate that we continue as before, only this time we state which character is being used in thread/debate and such.



Yes, this true. However, I already stated that i was not implying that Legends is no longer canon and should therefore be discarded. I'm debating for Shaak Ti, a character who's best feats come from the Legends continuity. What I am saying only applies to the game mechanic aspects of the debate and character.

Those quotes that are particularly alluding to the mechanical facet of the character and game, are quotes i don't take seriously what-so-ever.

That notwithstanding, when we talk about the Dark Side versions of these character, when the thread creator specifies what incarnation of that character is being used in the thread. Then, and only then, do I take the dark side version of that character, serious.

However as it stands, and using reasonable logic, game mechanics and the use of a character's Dark Side version in a thread that, at least in my understanding, has Meetra as Light Sided, is foolhardy.



Admittedly, it's been a while since i've looked at the Revan respect thread, but were there not quote stating that he was a Soldier during Kotor and later he became a Guardian?



Yes, it most definitely can. Shaak Ti, however, has no need for a case for she's already confirmed to be a great swordbeing and a master duelist.


Anyway, Nova. I'll respond to your comments in awhile. I feel there's stuff i may have to concede, but yeah.

Now the guide contradicts nothing due to Aspyr Media's optional DLC.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Now the guide contradicts nothing due to Aspyr Media's optional DLC.

information we didn't have when this debate began.

And i reiterate, Game Mechanics Let's also wait and see just how consistent the guide is with the game, hm?

When you have an actual counter to that, my fellow debater, we may talk.

The only source we have for Revan being a guardian is the fact that he had a blue lightsaber during KotOR, and he was most likely a scout during the earlier portions of the game.

Revan's honestly a Consular, there's a lot of evidence for it.

Not that it means anything, Shaak Ti was a Consular and she's a masterful duelist.

Revan's not a consular. It has nothing to do with combat styles, and more to do with your role in the Jedi overall. Revan was the Jedi's greatest champion during KotOR and was not just a "masterful duelist" but also given the role of a fighter in the Order. If they wanted him to be a consular, he would have had a green lightsaber, not a blue one. Even in the comics before KotOR, he always wielded a blue lightsaber, and this was back when colors actually mattered. He practically screams guardian, if a more Force focused one.

He wielded a green Lightsaber though, during the Revan novel.

He also devoted much of his life to studying all of the Jedi forms, their force techniques and intricate secrets. The fact he's a strong combatant does not at all mean he's a Guardian. He kept to strategy more than fighting front lines anyway.

Doesn't really matter to KotOR, and like I said, I know his fighting style doesn't matter, but his role in in the Order was that of a Guardian, not a Consular. And while he kept to strategy, he had his fair share of front line fighting. It was he that took on Mandalore, after all.

Originally posted by Selenial
Revan's honestly a Consular, there's a lot of evidence for it.

Not that it means anything, Shaak Ti was a Consular and she's a masterful duelist.

Old Republic Encylcopedia disagrees with you actually

He was either a Guardian or Sentinel if that "Notable Jedi Knights" entry in the thing means much to you.

Revan is not a Guardian, Sentinel or Consular, he surpassed those rigid paths and is simply a supremely powerful Jedi Master.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan is not a Guardian, Sentinel or Consular, he surpassed those rigid paths and is simply a supremely powerful Jedi Master.


He's not even a Jedi Master if we want to really get into that. He's kind of transcended Jedi and Sith. excellent

True, though officially he remains a Master of the Jedi Order, at least on record.

Well, Revan's a Knight by SWTOR's definition, so he's either a Guardian or Sentinel based on that (unless, of course, he never progressed). Seeing as Revan had wielded a blue blade in his Jedi training up to the Mandalorian Wars, and also in Duron Qel-Drom'a vision of him slaying Malak, it's likely that he was a Guardian. His feats and descriptions just fit that notion more than a Sentinel (frankly, Revan as a Consular makes more sense than Revan as a Sentinel).

Not that any of this matters, considering that when you get to high-tier Jedi who've fought plenty of opponents, a Consular could be a very skilled duelist just as a Guardian could be a very considerable Force wielder.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, she wasn't, and Soresu was a factor in that IMO.

True enough. Alright, I seemed to have not articulated my words, so let me try again

What i am saying, is that when Luminara and Ventress first engaged, Luminara was able to observe her foes style and deduce that she fought with Dooku's form prior she got injured and thus, when there was a break in combat, Luminara was able to say what she said.

Is that clear? I'm not being sarcastic, i'm genuine curious if you understood this or if I'm confusing you even further.





The game cut a lot of things, this is a fact, but even in the Prima Guide they mention Lonna Vash's passing is mentioned in the comic, so obviously they had time to change things.



I just watched the scene and she says nothing of the sort.




True enough, still, his barrier is there and it's pretty solid. Unlike Meetra he's got showings with it.



Galen was sent flying and kept down by Shaak's Force Blast. Galen has survived to tankown brutal TK, which even during the beginning of career was impressive, as he was able to throw a Tie Fighter with pure ease and could throw people so hard that computer panels and walls broke. Yet despite having his own Telekinesis redirected at him, he got up and kept fighting Kota, where as in his fight with Ti he was in a complete daze.

I mentioned Grievous in regards to Ti using her TK on him on Hypori and Corsucant. My apologies for not being clear.




Yes, I know this. She is a master of other forms, but what they are is unknown to us correct? And we don't really have enough material on Atris to correctly deduce what her forms were, yes?

In any case. Meetra brings nothing new to this fight that Shaak hasn't already faced.

Shii-Cho is taught to all Jedi and they are expected to know it by heart as per the Jedi Path.

Makashi is among her known forms and her grace with it is compared to Dooku's

Soresu she had no problem countering when she was pit against Starkiller.

Ataru she knows

Djem So is noting going to bring her down when her own strength is more so impressive than what Meetra has.

Niman is likely among her known forms given her incorporation of Force blasts(as scene during the Siege of Brontaal IV and the 1st and 3rd attacka on Kamino)

And she had no problem dueling Starkiller, an expert on Juyo.

So, i don't see Meetra bringing anything against Shaak in a duel.



Let's be real here. Nova. One her fight with Grievous was when he had every advantage possible and in her fight with Starkiller, she did incredibly well despite the fact that she was out of battle for several years. She may not be as powerful or skilled, but for what she has, she's pretty good and in my humble opinion, better than Meetra



So you presume to know what i was thinking? Please, Nova, you're no Charles Xavier.



Beating the same person she trained in combat and having more known abilities than Brianna isn't as impressive as you make it out to be.

Brianna defeated her sisters easily, yes true. However, they're armed with quarterstaffs, have never encountered a jedi weapon or even a Jedi foe before and never saw battle, while Brianna did in her travels with the Exile and grew stronger.

I didn't neglect it, i knew of it, but it's not an incredible feat, it's a decent feat, but again it hardly compares.



You mentioned Brianna's speed to make Atris seem more impressive, i'm stating that there's an obvious reason why a force sensitive is able to move faster than normal beings.





the Shadow hand doesn't mention her at all by name dude. Even so, we don't see anything stating how skilled or powerful in the Force Visas is.




We know that she was capable of combatively defeating them, which is what matters.





Hey, give me credit, I haven't played the game in over a year.



Oh, I've converted another one. Awesome.



We don't really know that though do we?





Based on what? There is nothing supporting you on that, except your own theory.



Yeah, a class we know absolutely nothing of, Nova.

Again, what she knows, is entirely dependent on how the player customizes her character.

The argument can be made that she could be a consular due to this or that, but that doesn't change the fact that what she knows, is entirely dependent on the corresponding prestige classes as well, Nova. Classes that our player's choice, yet another game mechanic.



My bad.



Yet you except some quotes from this drastically changed, non-canonical story and recognize them as a show of power for the Exile in your respect thread, despite the fact, that feat itself contradicts the Legend continuity story of the Jedi Exile and Kotor 2 itself. Because, in this dark side version of Meetra, the power change is astronomical seeing as she's made up to be a second, Nihilus.

Either way you word it, Nova. when you're accepting the Dark Side choices, you're accepting the Non-canonical version of a story.



True enough, however Starkiller has only ever trained with Vader, and Vader was described as harsh.



He fought Vader prior to ANH iirc.



Aside from dueling Vader for a decent amount of time as his Obi-Wan Module?

Also, just how powerful that made Sion is unknown, Nova. all we do know is that he's able to resurrect. That's it.



I know it doesn't, i'm clarifying that Starkiller completely eviscerated Kazdan, with Telekinesis.



Eh, he's decent. And don't worry, i know how easy to counter that, and inaccurate .





eh, true enough



Alright, Nova, even if where to agree with the notion that Meetra knows all lightsaber forms. This would still be my response.

As i said before, Meetra brings nothing to the table as a duelist that Shaak hasn't already seen in, arguably, better duelists. That's a fact.

While arguably there is a disparity in augmentative ability. I doubt that makes much of a difference, when we've seen great force augmentative abilities from Shaak Ti.

Although, I do like that at the very least, I've been able to get you from "Shaak Ti goes down in a duel." to "Meetra is only probably slightly more skilled than Shaak." Which is nice.(not boasting, i'm being 100% genuine here)

Also, i've placed on attachment that shows the Shadow Hand section in the KOTOR CG.

Fated, Meetra Surik does have Tutaminis feats, she absorbed the Force Lightning of amped Darth Nyriss and withstood the Force Lightning Storms of amped Traya and Atris.

I thought she used a barrier with Nyriss

Quite right, but it's not a major difference really.

Leneer carries her team to victory.

Originally posted by carthage
Leneer carries her team to victory. Out of ten how many times do you think Surik and Leneer win?

All in all the ladies win.