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i could be wrong but it sounds to me like you're conflating two separate issues: high murder rates in black neighborhoods and police brutality. high murder rates in black neighborhoods are mostly due to gang violence and things like that, not police shootings.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i could be wrong but it sounds to me like you're conflating two separate issues: high murder rates in black neighborhoods and police brutality. high murder rates in black neighborhoods are mostly due to gang violence and things like that, not police shootings.

It's total killings, yes, but they're related.

One of the big problems is, if you can't trust the police, and many black communities can't, then who protects you from the gangs?

In places where police harass black people and are more likely to view them as threats/escalate violence against them in ways they don't for whites, the people are caught between frying pan and fire. And that's what give you higher rates of killings.

But aren't black people..the biggest killers of black people in America? No other race kills more blacks then blacks.

Originally posted by Surtur
But aren't black people..the biggest killers of black people in America? No other race kills more blacks then blacks.

Yea, lol. What a stupid article to convey some sort of racism.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist here, it just seems that..well, you tend to see some people who act like the biggest problems the community faces do not come from within the community.

So I think when people talk about "putting things in context" when the dude is talking about how you are a lot more likely to be killed if black..why not point out the rest, which is it is most likely a member of the same race who will be killing you?

The problem is I'm white..I can't talk about this. Or..well, I can, but it means something different if it comes from a person within the community.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm not saying racism doesn't exist here, it just seems that..well, you tend to see some people who act like the biggest problems the community faces do not come from within the community.

This was intended to compare white people to black people and say that blacks live a more dangerous life than Rwanda due to whites/cops.

When in fact, blacks kill each other by the droves.

Originally posted by Q99
One of the big problems is, if you can't trust the police, and many black communities can't, then who protects you from the gangs?

I posted the polling on this, before, that matched what you're saying, here.

Blacks don't trust the police, education, and government compared to whites and other race demographics. I don't feel like putting in the work to find that research but it is there.

Edit - Yes, "another black man is a black man's worst enemy in America." That's the saying.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I posted the polling on this, before, that matched what you're saying, here.

Blacks don't trust the police, education, and government compared to whites and other race demographics. I don't feel like putting in the work to find that research but it is there.

Edit - Yes, "another black man is a black man's worst enemy in America." That's the saying.

Black people and black communities also have good reason to not trust the police, education system and the government, because they get short changed on all of these as compared to White Americans.

Originally posted by Surtur
But aren't black people..the biggest killers of black people in America? No other race kills more blacks then blacks.
Because of poverty and poor public self-image that breeds crime among other things.

Compare and contrast the Hispanic population in America with the black population.

SES?

Income?

Health?

Crime Rates?

Education rates?


etc.


I'm interested to see where they are similar and where they are different. That might be relevant to this thread and could help make the points more solid.

Originally posted by Q99
It's total killings, yes, but they're related.

One of the big problems is, if you can't trust the police, and many black communities can't, then who protects you from the gangs?

In places where police harass black people and are more likely to view them as threats/escalate violence against them in ways they don't for whites, the people are caught between frying pan and fire. And that's what give you higher rates of killings. yea i'm really not sure about that. i'm not saying they're not related at all but i don't think the main cause of gang violence is a distrust for the police.

i mean i know that maybe historically the crips started out of a mistrust for the police and things like that

but modern day gangs act more like cartels geared for profit. and in some cases they blur racial lines so long as the members are loyal to the gang itself

i don't think it's the fact that victims of gang violence are scared of the cops that they don't call the police

in many cases victims of gang violence are other competing gangsters, and in cases where innocent people are killed but won't snitch it's more because they doubt the police can protect them from the gangs

and that is similar to what you were saying but not quite the same... putting cameras on police won't make them any more capable of protecting you from a gang

the only way to address gang violence is to address the underlying incentives to join gangs

and maybe some of that work is to be done in the police department, but i'd say the majority of it is outside their scope of influence.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Compare and contrast the Hispanic population in America with the black population.

SES?

Income?

Health?

Crime Rates?

Education rates?


etc.


I'm interested to see where they are similar and where they are different. That might be relevant to this thread and could help make the points more solid.
I'd argue that Hispanics are a much broader group than blacks are, much harder to pin down. I mean, for one thing, many Hispanics would count as black.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Black people and black communities also have good reason to not trust the police, education system and the government, because they get short changed on all of these as compared to White Americans. i dunno if that's really a good ideology to promote... not that you're necessarily wrong, statistically. but if we take statistical averages and use that as a blanket condemnation of one particular group of people, then you could just as easily justify the racial profiling the cops are guilty of as you could justify the black community's distrust of the police.

this all reminds me of a news piece i saw a while back from my hometown.. just a little friendly public service announcement to the black community that not all cops are bad
ZiUlg-gJtNo
inspirational words @ 3:26
"and all we have to do is keep our hand in his hand, and he will always provide, and just know: that just because you see uniform, we are here for you" cry

Originally posted by Q99
It's total killings, yes, but they're related.

One of the big problems is, if you can't trust the police, and many black communities can't, then who protects you from the gangs?

In places where police harass black people and are more likely to view them as threats/escalate violence against them in ways they don't for whites, the people are caught between frying pan and fire. And that's what give you higher rates of killings.

That's not really the case at all. A lot of the reason why people in our communities don't call the police isn't due to fear of Police violence, it's due to fear of reprisals by the people they're calling the Police on and the Police not being able to protect them from street retaliation (i.e., snitches get stitches/"Stop Snitchin". Most of the violence comes from drug trafficking/turf violence, gang violence, and theft. Police violence is part of the pie, but it's a much smaller part. Like maybe 20% max being generous. This is a very faulty narrative to push man.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
That's not really the case at all. A lot of the reason why people in our communities don't call the police isn't due to fear of Police violence, it's due to fear of reprisals by the people they're calling the Police on and the Police not being able to protect them from street retaliation (i.e., snitches get stitches/"Stop Snitchin". Most of the violence comes from drug trafficking/turf violence, gang violence, and theft. Police violence is part of the pie, but it's a much smaller part. Like maybe 20% max being generous. This is a very faulty narrative to push man.

20%? That's a mind bogglingly large number. If it was 1% it would be ridiculously much to much.

Lets remember that allegedly police are there to serve and protect...

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Because of poverty and poor public self-image that breeds crime among other things.

It doesn't change the fact the biggest killer of blacks is blacks and yet they will only riot when a white guy kills a black man. They won't even wait until the autopsy reports, etc. are out to know whether or not a killing was justified, the automatic assumption is the person must of been innocent because they were black and the cop was white.

Also, you just proved a good point because people always want to point the finger elsewhere whenever these problems are brought up. Am I saying your reasoning is not a factor? No, but I'm saying it usually comes down to pointing the finger at others for the problems within the community.

Originally posted by Surtur
It doesn't change the fact the biggest killer of blacks is blacks and yet they will only riot when a white guy kills a black man.
I'm not arguing against a statistic, I'm simply explaining why that statistic is the way it is, and it isn't because blacks are inherently more violent. I wish people who bring up the black murder rate would just man up and admit that that's what they're trying to say.

Originally posted by Surtur
It doesn't change the fact the biggest killer of blacks is blacks and yet they will only riot when a white guy kills a black man.

Also, you just proved a good point because people always want to point the finger elsewhere whenever these problems are brought up.

People will riot if a person charged with protection of citizens kills a citizen in what appears to be unjust circumstances and without any official consequences due to their actions.

Originally posted by Bardock42
People will riot if a person charged with protection of citizens kills a citizen in what appears to be unjust circumstances and without any official consequences due to their actions.

So then why do I not see riots every day in Chicago over the black kids killed by black gang members who never face consequences?

Originally posted by Surtur
So then why do I not see riots every day in Chicago over the black kids killed by black gang members who never face consequences?

Are the gang members charged by the government with protecting the black kids they kill? Do the authorities turn a blind eye and do not prosecute the gang members if they can take a hold of them?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm not arguing against a statistic, I'm simply explaining why that statistic is the way it is, and it isn't because blacks are inherently more violent. I wish people who bring up the black murder rate would just man up and admit that that's what they're trying to say.

I disagree, it's not about trying to say blacks are inherently more violent then others. Looking at the various atrocities committed in history show this to be flat out untrue.

But my problem is whenever this is mentioned and people explain why..the explanations always contain pointing fingers at others and *nothing else*.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Are the gang members charged by the government with protecting the black kids they kill? Do the authorities turn a blind eye and do not prosecute the gang members if they can take a hold of them?

So it is not the jobs of the gangs to protect people so that means they shouldn't riot over the countless deaths of children(young ass children, not "kids" like Michael Brown who are 300 lb motherf*ckers 18 years of age) that never get solved, where nobody get punished, and the COMMUNITY ITSELF keeps quiet and protects them.

That isn't worthy of a riot? Especially when it happens so much more often then white cops killing black men?

Originally posted by Bardock42
People will riot if a person charged with protection of citizens kills a citizen in what appears to be unjust circumstances and without any official consequences due to their actions.


As Martin Luthor King Jr. put it, 'A riot is the voice of the voiceless.'

If people feel they have no other way heard, they will riot to draw as much attention as possible, and hope that the problem will be caught by the response and focus drawn to the riot too.





Like Bardock said, that's a huuuuge number, and enough to inspire much distrust.


If a big chunk of your communities' deaths came from your 'protectors,' you wouldn't turn to them for protection. You'd thus have to worry about being preyed upon by the protectors, and you'd be more vulnerable to other crime.


And as recent events have shown, police respond very disproportionately to black suspects. Choking a guy out (who was saying 'I can't breath') for... stealing cigarettes. Man-handling a teenage girl at a pool party, then pulling a gun on two other kids (the accusation? Being in a pool without a guest pass!... which, btw, they were innocent of). A black suspect who literally died from the rough ride back to the police station (due to no seatbelt, and the police purposefully making it rough, a practice the particular department is *well known* for).

Even when it's not fatal, it gives them a very good reason not to trust police.

And that drives up the deaths from other criminals, because they don't have the protection white people do as a result.

Originally posted by Surtur
I disagree, it's not about trying to say blacks are inherently more violent then others. Looking at the various atrocities committed in history show this to be flat out untrue.

But my problem is whenever this is mentioned and people explain why..the explanations always contain pointing fingers at others and *nothing else*.
I think it's a structural problem with American society. We've basically inherited a system that was built on the subjugation of blacks and not enough has been done to change that.

And if we do point the finger at blacks, what then? If we reduce that position, it eventually comes down to some kind of indictment of blacks as a race.

But then if it is about drawing attention then why not draw attention to all the black on black crimes via riots?

What about them?

The finger is being pointed at blacks constantly. There's no shortage of that. The justice system of the US is based on pointing fingers at black people. The other side though is much less discussed and accepted.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think it's a structural problem with American society. We've basically inherited a system that was built on the subjugation of blacks and not enough has been done to change that.

And if we do point the finger at blacks, what then? If we reduce that position, it eventually comes down to some kind of indictment of blacks as a race.

As to what do we do if we point the finger at blacks..well, we take solace in the fact we at least aren't putting our fingers in our ears and pretending the problem only comes externally.

Then we start trying to fix it: by both trying to combat racism in the country AND trying to fix the way the black community in general deals with each other.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The finger is being pointed at blacks constantly. There's no shortage of that. The justice system of the US is based on pointing fingers at black people. The other side though is much less discussed and accepted.

But like I said, the finger is pointed by everyone but the ones who matter. The finger doesn't get pointed enough by the community in question, which is my problem.

This is why I have respect for a guy like "Tommy Sotomayor". Even if you don't like him, he recognizes that while racism exists, the community itself also needs to take responsibility for certain things.

Originally posted by Bardock42
20%? That's a mind bogglingly large number. If it was 1% it would be ridiculously much to much.

Lets remember that allegedly police are there to serve and protect...

I said 20% max being generous, and it's likely, empirically, far lower than that. I don't live in fear of the Oakland PD since I'm a law abiding employed citizen who has very little, if any, interaction with the Police, but I do keep my eyes peeled in case someone is trying to catch me slippin at an ATM or getting in and out of my car in certain areas here in Oakland, and it's not because I'm "driving (or banking) while black". I've been at gunpoint from a member of my own demographic more times than I have by law enforcement, which was only once when I was 13 years old and I allegedly fit the description (black male, blue shirt, blue jeans, age 21-28) of another man who had just slashed up his ex. I've been mugged 4 times and had my apartment burglarized twice.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I said 20% max being generous, and it's likely, empirically, far lower than that. I don't live in fear of the Oakland PD since I'm a law abiding employed citizen who has very little, if any, interaction with the Police, but I do keep my eyes peeled in case someone is trying to catch me slippin at an ATM or getting in and out of my car in certain areas here in Oakland, and it's not because I'm "driving (or banking) while black". I've been at gunpoint from a member of my own demographic more times than I have by law enforcement, which was only once when I was 13 years old and I allegedly fit the description (black male, blue shirt, blue jeans, age 21-28) of another man who had just slashed up his ex. I've been mugged 4 times and had my apartment burglarized twice.

The issue is that there shouldn't even be a reasonable argument to be made whether you are more afraid of the police or criminals. That this is something we discuss is absurd, and shows the extreme issue there is in the US.

they're just going to basically ignore anything you say that doesn't feed into their narrative of cops vs black people cause lately that's the big story

Originally posted by Q99
As Martin Luthor King Jr. put it, 'A riot is the voice of the voiceless.'

If people feel they have no other way heard, they will riot to draw as much attention as possible, and hope that the problem will be caught by the response and focus drawn to the riot too.





Like Bardock said, that's a huuuuge number, and enough to inspire much distrust.


If a big chunk of your communities' deaths came from your 'protectors,' you wouldn't turn to them for protection. You'd thus have to worry about being preyed upon by the protectors, and you'd be more vulnerable to other crime.


And as recent events have shown, police respond very disproportionately to black suspects. Choking a guy out (who was saying 'I can't breath') for... stealing cigarettes. Man-handling a teenage girl at a pool party, then pulling a gun on two other kids (the accusation? Being in a pool without a guest pass!... which, btw, they were innocent of). A black suspect who literally died from the rough ride back to the police station (due to no seatbelt, and the police purposefully making it rough, a practice the particular department is *well known* for).

Even when it's not fatal, it gives them a very good reason not to trust police.

And that drives up the deaths from other criminals, because they don't have the protection white people do as a result.

You're really gonna run with that generous max estimation? Do I need to go and get actual stats? It really seems like you guys are setting up a tent on really flimsy ground. The issue isn't that police brutality doesn't exist, it's that it doesn't account for nearly a high enough volume of the body count you seem to be thinking that statistic portrays, which actually IMO as a black man does the matter a disservice as it moves the goal post away from the community issues which need to be addressed. I lost one of my close friends from high school out here in March to gun violence in West Oakland and there were no marches or hashtags for Chyemil, she was just a mother of 3 lost to inner city violence because she wasn't part of this narrative being pushed. The problem is a lot bigger than just Police Brutality.

Originally posted by red g jacks
they're just going to basically ignore anything you say that doesn't feed into their narrative of cops vs black people cause lately that's the big story

This is just a mentality that needs to change because cops have done stuff out of line in the past, yes even killed when not warranted. But is "cops kill innocent black people" the worst thing happening to the community?

Also yes someone was 100% right: a lot of fingers do get pointed at the black community. It's just usually none of those fingers tend to be black.

Or if one of those fingers is black..then a lot of black people will turn on such a person for speaking about that kind of truth, but have no issue when speaking about other kinds of truth(like police brutality).

That is my issue, police brutality is also an issue and you do not see all white people afraid to call the cops out and discuss it. You don't see them all stigmatizing the white folk who say cops are out of line(oh some do, but it doesn't stop A LOT of people from speaking out). Slavery would of never ended if it was only black people upset over it. Why? Because it has to be the people acting that way who recognize the issue.

it's kind of weird to me cause it's like i have to believe that liberals do care and mean well in trying to push this police brutality issue... but they seem oblivious to ways in which they actually fan the flames and make the situation even worse through their dedicated propaganda campaigns. you guys think you're doing a good thing telling black people they shouldn't trust the police? do you see how that might just escalate things further?

Originally posted by Bardock42
The issue is that there shouldn't even be a reasonable argument to be made whether you are more afraid of the police or criminals. That this is something we discuss is absurd, and shows the extreme issue there is in the US.

The reason it is discussed is since a significant portion of my demographic lives in poverty, and a significant subset of that portion that lives in poverty resorts to crime in their areas of residence to generate income, these areas have an increased Police presence, and that increased Police presence entails an increase in Police interaction.

Since I don't operate in those environments, or engage in those activities, I have no reason to live in fear of the Police, while I do, however, have to worry about being victimized by this same subset of my demographic whose activity increases the presence of the Police in my city.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm not saying racism doesn't exist here, it just seems that..well, you tend to see some people who act like the biggest problems the community faces do not come from within the community.

So I think when people talk about "putting things in context" when the dude is talking about how you are a lot more likely to be killed if black..why not point out the rest, which is it is most likely a member of the same race who will be killing you?

The problem is I'm white..I can't talk about this. Or..well, I can, but it means something different if it comes from a person within the community.
I'm black, and i agree with you.

Originally posted by red g jacks
it's kind of weird to me cause it's like i have to believe that liberals do care and mean well in trying to push this police brutality issue... but they seem oblivious to ways in which they actually fan the flames and make the situation even worse through their dedicated propaganda campaigns. you guys think you're doing a good thing telling black people they shouldn't trust the police? do you see how that might just escalate things further?

What these campaigns try to do is to get police to change it's views and methods. Maybe it does increase distrusts, though i find that unlikely, the distrust exists in these commiunities, and it is at least partly warranted because of the police. We can't tell gang members to change (at least not directly, they are not employed by us, but we do try to get them to change by incarcerating them in large numbers) but we can tell police to change.

Originally posted by Bardock42
What these campaigns try to do is to get police to change it's views and methods. Maybe it does increase distrusts, though i find that unlikely, the distrust exists in these commiunities, and it is at least partly warranted because of the police. We can't tell gang members to change (at least not directly, they are not employed by us, but we do try to get them to change by incarcerating them in large numbers) but we can tell police to change. really...? you find it unlikely that black people in the united states, watching the news day in day out talk about how cops have it out for black people, you find it unlikely that has any negative effect whatsovever on the image they have of the police, cause hey, distrust already existed? that makes sense to you?

i'm not saying police don't need reform. i'm saying that this method of reforming the police is incredibly clumsy and counterproductive. imo anyway

I can attest that a large number of Black Women are hysterical (I know, a poor choice of words for describing women) due to the narrative being forwarded recently. To the point I couldn't even convince my own Mother that I'm not constantly harassed by Police and she was selling wolf tickets on Facebook regarding incidents of my and my brother's past interactions with Police (my aforementioned "fit the description" incident and my brother and his friend taking that friend's Mom's car without permission and being arrested for Grand Theft Auto ). Police brutality is a real issue, but it's being framed as THE ISSUE which afflicts my community, and frankly, it's not.

Well, that and "White Privilege". Those are the current buzzwords.

You don't think there is white privilege?

Also, from my POV I always look at this from the white community (being white) and I think the issues we have in our community that affect black people negatively are very big, but we are very willing to sweep these issues under the rug and just point at it being black people's fault alone.

^^^Ha, really?
Another reason to be glade i'm not on Facebook.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You don't think there is white privilege?

Also, from my POV I always look at this from the white community (being white) and I think the issues we have in our community that affect black people negatively are very big, but we are very willing to sweep these issues under the rug and just point at it being black people's fault alone.

So are you in college right now BR? As student or teacher?

Originally posted by Flyattractor
So are you in college right now BR? As student or teacher?

lol no

Coulda fooled me.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You don't think there is white privilege?

Also, from my POV I always look at this from the white community (being white) and I think the issues we have in our community that affect black people negatively are very big, but we are very willing to sweep these issues under the rug and just point at it being black people's fault alone.

I think wealthy people of every ethnicity have it better than most people regardless of ethnicity, and I know some white people in poverty have it worse than me, a single middle class 35 year old black man with no kids and a career, and I know most of us here in the US have it better than people elsewhere, so it's all relative.

The only 'privilege' your average lower middle class white person has (which is the vast majority of white people) is that they don't have the mental and cultural baggage my people do, and by that I mean being brought up and taught that everything here is set up to hold them back and even if you try your hardest you'll likely be passed over because you're black. One of my favorite hip hop songs of all time "Thieves in the Night" by Mos Def and Talib Kweli spoke on it. The sense of disillusionment and disenfranchisement that leads to a stigma of self defeat. A lot of people actually buy into that mentality before they even try or look to illegitimate means to make a living without giving a legitimate career a chance and lacking the patience and foresight to plan long term. I can't blame White People solely for that. I've never lived in bondage, and I've made strides in my life because I came from a household that didn't profess that mindset.

-slow clap-
This is the reason i've never cared for seeing everything in terms of color. Money wealth and privilege know no color barriers.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You don't think there is white privilege?

Also, from my POV I always look at this from the white community (being white) and I think the issues we have in our community that affect black people negatively are very big, but we are very willing to sweep these issues under the rug and just point at it being black people's fault alone. why are you this all or nothing on this one issue?

you seem reasonably intelligent to me so it's kind of confusing to me that you would have such an approach.

it's like you're basically saying you will only address the parts of the problem that you feel indirectly guilty about... anything else isn't your problem so you refuse to acknowledge it.

Originally posted by red g jacks
why are you this all or nothing on this one issue?

you seem reasonably intelligent to me so it's kind of confusing to me that you would have such an approach.

it's like you're basically saying you will only address the parts of the problem that you feel indirectly guilty about... anything else isn't your problem so you refuse to acknowledge it.

I don't think I'm all or nothing on this issue. I haven't disagreed that there are issues within black communities, of course there are. My point is that the mainstream only discusses the issues that exist in black communities, and solely blames black people for it, often using these issues to disregard the problems caused by racism and the treatment of black communities by authorities. There is a difference between not acknowledging something and not focusing on it.

I think Bardock means well and I have no quarrel with him, I just think at times liberals in general pimp victimhood, guilt, and altruism the same way conservatives pimp piety, fear, and patriotism, and the end result is patronizing banter. As a black man I feel the Left feels we need to be 'kept' for our own good whereas the Right feels we need to be left to rot or recover for our own good, whereas I feel the actual position should be these are our fellow citizens and, moreover, human beings, what can we do to both encourage social and economic progress without taking on full hands on responsibility and stewardship, as well as let them know that they have some real issues to address that effect us all?

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I think Bardock means well and I have no quarrel with him, I just think at times liberals in general pimp victimhood, guilt, and altruism the same way conservatives pimp piety, fear, and patriotism, and the end result is patronizing banter. As a black man I feel the Left feels we need to be 'kept' for our own good whereas the Right feels we need to be left to rot or recover for our own good, whereas I feel the actual position should be these are our fellow citizens and, moreover, human beings, what can we do to both encourage social and economic progress without taking on full hands on responsibility and stewardship, as well as let them know that they have some real issues to address that effect us all?

I would completely agree with this. I guess what I am mostly exposed to is white people having none of that compassion you are talking about, so I am unwilling to further the narrative that it's all black people's fault. I agree that there needs to be progress on both fronts, however police and authorities wash their hand of the situation by pointing at gang violence and disregarding any circumstances that lead to the problems.

Therein lies the paradox of the Hood. The crime and violence brings down the property values and in turn creates a deficit of local funding for schools and social services and increase in Police presence, but the lack of social services and education can lead to a life of crime and generational poverty.

On top of that sprinkle generous amounts of crack and fast money from criminal behavior and sex trafficking juxtaposed against the cost of higher education.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Therein lies the paradox of the Hood. The crime and violence brings down the property values and in turn creates a deficit of local funding for schools and social services and increase in Police presence, but the lack of social services and education can lead to a life of crime and generational poverty.

On top of that sprinkle generous amounts of crack and fast money from criminal behavior and sex trafficking juxtaposed against the cost of higher education.

Well, and in there's a couple of things that mainstream society could work one: Criminalisation of drugs, decreased funding for badly performing school districts, high cost of higher education, etc. etc.

But instead there is a general feeling of "well, that's black people's problem, our policies have nothing to do with it"...

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't think I'm all or nothing on this issue. I haven't disagreed that there are issues within black communities, of course there are. My point is that the mainstream only discusses the issues that exist in black communities, and solely blames black people for it, often using these issues to disregard the problems caused by racism and the treatment of black communities by authorities. There is a difference between not acknowledging something and not focusing on it. if by not focusing you mean that in a thread where the initial posts misleadingly uses a homocide statistic to push a narrative of police abuse, you continue to talk about police abuse after that's pointed out, then when someone from the black community comes and tells you hey i think there are other things that deserve more attention right now, you continue to find ways to talk about police abuse or somehow the white man is at fault then yea... i'm gonna say that's basically the same as not acknowledging anything that doesn't agree with a predetermined narrative that you've decided to stick to. if you want to call it "not focusing" then fine.. that's semantics to me. for all intents and purposes you're basically ignoring any information that doesn't conform to your narrative imo.

and i'm not saying white people have no part in it or it's "black people's fault' or whatever... i think it's obvious the current set up is a result of a racist history and all that... but ideally a lot of us would like to move on from that past... and that's pretty much impossible when the media is relentlessly race-baiting the common public from both sides of the political spectrum.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, and in there's a couple of things that mainstream society could work one: Criminalisation of drugs, decreased funding for badly performing school districts, high cost of higher education, etc. etc.

But instead there is a general feeling of "well, that's black people's problem, our policies have nothing to do with it"...

Well, for example, if school funding comes property taxes, and the tax valuation of a certain neighborhood is low because it's a high crime area where most of the residents rent thier homes (with BMR vouchers) versus owning, that isn't the fault of the policy, objectively speaking, it actually is the fault of the criminal element in the area bringing the tax valuations down by making the neighborhoods undesirable and destroying everyone who lives there's equity. Then when efforts are made to bring those values back up it's labeled as gentrification and displacement of the impoverished. Oakland's a prime example of this.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Well, for example, if school funding comes property taxes, and the tax valuation of a certain neighborhood is low because it's a high crime area where most of the residents rent thier homes (with BMR vouchers) versus owning, that isn't the fault of the policy, objectively speaking, it actually is the fault of the criminal element in the area bringing the tax valuations down by making the neighborhoods undesirable and destroying everyone who lives there's equity. Then when efforts are made to bring those values back up it's labeled as gentrification and displacement of the impoverished. Oakland's a prime example of this.
I would very much say it is the fault of the policy if it is tied to property values. The education of the citizens of a country should not be based on the wealth of the neighborhood, imo.

Originally posted by red g jacks
if by not focusing you mean that in a thread where the initial posts misleadingly uses a homocide statistic to push a narrative of police abuse, you continue to talk about police abuse after that's pointed out, then when someone from the black community comes and tells you hey i think there are other things that deserve more attention right now, you continue to find ways to talk about police abuse or somehow the white man is at fault then yea... i'm gonna say that's basically the same as not acknowledging anything that doesn't agree with a predetermined narrative that you've decided to stick to. if you want to call it "not focusing" then fine.. that's semantics to me. for all intents and purposes you're basically ignoring any information that doesn't conform to your narrative imo.

and i'm not saying white people have no part in it or it's "black people's fault' or whatever... i think it's obvious the current set up is a result of a racist history and all that... but ideally a lot of us would like to move on from that past... and that's pretty much impossible when the media is relentlessly race-baiting the common public from both sides of the political spectrum.

That the discussion in this thread has somewhat evolved may be true, but I think my posts are close in spirit to the point the OP was trying to make. My disagreement with MF Delph was on whether there are other issues that deserve more attention, not whether there are other issues at all. From my POV the issues of authority and mainstream society that contribute to the problems in black communities are more important and I choose to focus on them more, in particular because the media actually focusses much more on the other side imo.

And I don't think "moving on" from the racist history is in any way reasonable or productive currently. If we do not acknowledge the history and continued racism we are turning a blind eye to a big part of what causes the issues.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I would very much say it is the fault of the policy if it is tied to property values. The education of the citizens of a country should not be based on the wealth of the neighborhood, imo.

If the funding doesn't come from local, state, and federal tax funding where is it going to come from? As a citizen of Oakland, CA my local taxes don't cover the costs and curriculum of, say, Lubbock, TX, for example (I sure as hell wouldn't want to know I was funding what the Texas Board of Education is doing to their text books and curriculum). Certain areas in Oakland are very high crime with little to zero home ownership and essentially all of the funding for schools comes from subsidies. A city like Dublin, CA doesn't have the same issue because on top of the state and federal funding they are also getting local taxation. The shortfall is the fault of Oakland's overall local tax valuation and revenue. The only way to bring that up is to bring the property value and local revenue up.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That the discussion in this thread has somewhat evolved may be true, but I think my posts are close in spirit to the point the OP was trying to make. My disagreement with MF Delph was on whether there are other issues that deserve more attention, not whether there are other issues at all. From my POV the issues of authority and mainstream society that contribute to the problems in black communities are more important and I choose to focus on them more, in particular because the media actually focusses much more on the other side imo.so because you deem lets say police brutality to be more important than the 500-600 gangland murders in chicago each year, when the discussion starts to involve issues that involve the gangland murders you instead decide to continue talking about police brutality? and that's a reasonable approach to a discussion in your view?

moving on doesn't mean not acknowledging racism. i'm curious what you would suggest we do about our racist past if not move on?

sorry for the hostility bardock just a little tired of this cops vs black people media campaign...

overall i agree it should be approached from a centralized/govt perspective rather than just "hey buddy pick yourself up by your bootstraps" approach.

but i think like delph said police brutality is not the main issue. that doesn't mean there aren't other ways in which poor govt has created/exasperated the current mess.

for example chicago...

WEXQrH92d68

i figure you might find this interesting enough to just watch it, if not i can give a tl:dw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3NgtACqWJs

Watching Bardock and Delf debate is like watching someone who knows what the **** they are talking about to a person who has zero clue.

Delf is a respectable black man living in America and Bardock is a white German living in Europe.

From waching them debate, You can see who knows knows what going on and who is just using the ability to jammer on about nonsense.

Like this post

Originally posted by Bardock42
I would very much say it is the fault of the policy if it is tied to property values. The education of the citizens of a country should not be based on the wealth of the neighborhood, imo.



That the discussion in this thread has somewhat evolved may be true, but I think my posts are close in spirit to the point the OP was trying to make. My disagreement with MF Delph was on whether there are other issues that deserve more attention, not whether there are other issues at all. From my POV the issues of authority and mainstream society that contribute to the problems in black communities are more important and I choose to focus on them more, in particular because the media actually focusses much more on the other side imo.

And I don't think "moving on" from the racist history is in any way reasonable or productive currently. If we do not acknowledge the history and continued racism we are turning a blind eye to a big part of what causes the issues.

Nothing is actually being said here, just fancy lip service. I have never seen someone be able to just type all this fancy sentences the way Bardock is without actually saying anything at all, but then you look at what is being said and its just empty rhetoric with nothing based in experiences or living in our culture.

Vs

Originally posted by MF DELPH
If the funding doesn't come from local, state, and federal tax funding where is it going to come from? As a citizen of Oakland, CA my local taxes don't cover the costs and curriculum of, say, Lubbock, TX, for example (I sure as hell wouldn't want to know I was funding what the Texas Board of Education is doing to their text books and curriculum). Certain areas in Oakland are very high crime with little to zero home ownership and essentially all of the funding for schools comes from subsidies. A city like Dublin, CA doesn't have the same issue because on top of the state and federal funding they are also getting local taxation. The shortfall is the fault of Oakland's overall local tax valuation and revenue. The only way to bring that up is to bring the property value and local revenue up.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I think wealthy people of every ethnicity have it better than most people regardless of ethnicity, and I know some white people in poverty have it worse than me, a single middle class 35 year old black man with no kids and a career, and I know most of us here in the US have it better than people elsewhere, so it's all relative.

The only 'privilege' your average lower middle class white person has (which is the vast majority of white people) is that they don't have the mental and cultural baggage my people do, and by that I mean being brought up and taught that everything here is set up to hold them back and even if you try your hardest you'll likely be passed over because you're black. One of my favorite hip hop songs of all time "Thieves in the Night" by Mos Def and Talib Kweli spoke on it. The sense of disillusionment and disenfranchisement that leads to a stigma of self defeat. A lot of people actually buy into that mentality before they even try or look to illegitimate means to make a living without giving a legitimate career a chance and lacking the patience and foresight to plan long term. I can't blame White People solely for that. I've never lived in bondage, and I've made strides in my life because I came from a household that didn't profess that mindset.

Who is talking about certain area's in America and talking specifics about issues in certain cities and using them as examples. I can also tell from Delf's post that he has very good understanding and insight as to what is going on and uses good examples from different area's of culture and current events.

Its clear Bardock is a complete joke and or trolling, and just using the word "racism" and using it often to act like he has a clue about the current issues in America.

Or St Louis...

u3NgtACqWJs

It does appear the most dangerous thing to Blacks is other Blacks.

Notice how many came to the aid of othes....


ZERO!

Welcome to the Black Community's of the U.S

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I think wealthy people of every ethnicity have it better than most people regardless of ethnicity, and I know some white people in poverty have it worse than me, a single middle class 35 year old black man with no kids and a career, and I know most of us here in the US have it better than people elsewhere, so it's all relative.

There's a thing called intersectional privilege. That is to say, there's different types of privilege that can overlap, and apply in some cases but not others.


There's white privilege and class privilege, and one can have one, both, or neither.


A black guy is more likely to see poor treatment by police than a white person of the same class, but one with a tailored suit and a 'respectable' haircut is safer than one in casual wear- though, a wealthy black person not wearing the trappings of class is more likely to suffer prejudice.

I'm reminded of the black judge who had the police called on him for 'trying to break into his own house'. High class position, normally treated with great respect, normally his class privilege cancels out any lack of racial privilege, wear casuals in the morning and people assume he's breaking into the neighborhood.



And it does remain that regardless of class, black people are more likely to be treated as a threat by police, and police are less likely to use de-escalation tactics.


The first dozen shootings in NYC by police this year were half against white, half against black. All the white suspects were armed. 2/3rds of the black ones were unarmed.


Which is not to say the only problem is police vs the people. Rather, the lack of trust in the police exacerbates any local issues by removing the force that'd normally stop them. Police are less interested in getting involved and locals are less trustful of the police, so you see higher casualty rates from gang violence and the like. Other areas simply have better protection than black neighborhoods tend to.




I believe Bardock's point is it should come from state or federal, not local, because it being based on local values means that poorer neighborhoods get the shaft when they likely need more help.

Having it reliant on local funding means a poor area can be caught in a kind of death spiral. Kids get less opportunity for education to move to richer areas, stay in poorer areas by default, poorer area provides less good education, next generation's stuck too.



(Also, does anyone find T-I's attempts to dismiss everyone who disagrees with him as 'nonsense' or someone with 'zero clue' really sad? I mean, you and Bardock are having a pretty good back-and-forth, and he decides the one he doesn't agree with *obviously* has nothing to say, he can safely ignore all opinions that don't line up with his preconceptions!)

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Or St Louis...

u3NgtACqWJs

It does appear the most dangerous thing to Blacks is other Blacks.

Notice how many came to the aid of othes....


ZERO!

Welcome to the Black Community's of the U.S

I wonder if that would have been racism if a white person did that?

Originally posted by Bardock42
You don't think there is white privilege?

Also, from my POV I always look at this from the white community (being white) and I think the issues we have in our community that affect black people negatively are very big, but we are very willing to sweep these issues under the rug and just point at it being black people's fault alone.

You should tell us, you are white after all. I live in a predominately hispanic community and I am the minority. You like in a 90-100% white community, I think you would know better then anyone.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Or St Louis...

u3NgtACqWJs

It does appear the most dangerous thing to Blacks is other Blacks.

Notice how many came to the aid of othes....


ZERO!

Welcome to the Black Community's of the U.S tell us some more about how much you hate black people

Originally posted by red g jacks
tell us some more about how much you hate black people

Would that have been national news and labeled racism if it was a white person though? Its a valid question/concern.

Originally posted by Q99

Which is not to say the only problem is police vs the people. Rather, the lack of trust in the police exacerbates any local issues by removing the force that'd normally stop them. Police are less interested in getting involved and locals are less trustful of the police, so you see higher casualty rates from gang violence and the like. Other areas simply have better protection than black neighborhoods tend to.
that's one story. let me tell you another story my friend

like chicago for example used to have a relatively vibrant black district in the segregation era.... when desegregation happened you see a flight of upper and middle class black families from the traditional black part of chicago.. stripping the community of its economic base. then in an attempt to combat poverty they decide to build massive public housing complexes.... which, due to a general lack of other, legitimate economic opportunities in the area, deteriorate into hellish warzone of competing gangs. then, in an effort to "clean up the streets," they start destructing public housing complexes on a mass scale, one after another, displacing thousands of impoverished residents who still have little to no economic opportunities, and now the gang territories are all being shaken up as populations shift due to the destruction of the complexes. and thus you have 238 people murdered in chicago in 2015 so far and counting... usually you'll end up somewhere in the 400-500 range...

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Would that have been national news and labeled racism if it was a white person though? Its a valid question/concern. is it a valid question or is it more pointless race baiting bullshit? (hint: that's a rhetorical question)

Originally posted by red g jacks
is it a valid question or is it more pointless race baiting bullshit? (hint: that's a rhetorical question)

No I mean hypothetically, like if the media had gotten ahold of this and had that been a white driver, hell say it was a hispanic driver. What would they say? I can think of the words hate crime and racist and all the other stuff

maybe? but you're like... inventing a controversy that never happened so who cares? do you just want me to say the media sucks? because the media sucks.

Originally posted by red g jacks
maybe? but you're like... inventing a controversy that never happened so who cares? do you just want me to say the media sucks? because the media sucks.

I agree. It just does not seem fair. If black's commit crime against each other, its largely not reported. If its Black on white, its largely not reported. If its white on black, its racism and national news.

The controversy is invented by the media and then everyone argues about it.

i guess that's just the white man's burden my friend

Originally posted by red g jacks
i guess that's just the white man's burden my friend



Touch'e

Will it always be that way? Did you know now, that whites are the minority and Latino's are the majority.

actually i think chinese are the majority. they're the ones you need to worry about. china operates very similarly to an ant colony... they have a "hive mind" if you will. they act on the basis of what is good for the chinese collective rather than what is good for the run of the mill chinaman.

that's why you see them beating us so much on trade. they make shit cheap because they make it in forced labor camps called the "laogai" which is an abbreviatted chinese term meaning "reform through labor."

chinamen who disagree with the regime are promptly sent to the laogai to make our homer simpson slippers and christmas lights. this is how china is so successfull and why the west is so afraid of china... because they have the power of collective swarm intelligence, similar to an ant colony.

imagine 1.3 billion statistically superior chinese brains all working in unison as a collective intelligence network to subvert american geopolitical interests and promote the interests of china and the subservient residents of the laogai. not a good forecast for the west, my friend.

First off, T.I., your not helping the discourse here man. We're just having a good convo. There's no winners/losers. Stop taking shots at Bardock. He's not the problem. Ideologically he and I are closer to allies, I just disagree with some of his positions as I find them lacking proper context.

Originally posted by Q99
There's a thing called intersectional privilege. That is to say, there's different types of privilege that can overlap, and apply in some cases but not others.


There's white privilege and class privilege, and one can have one, both, or neither.


A black guy is more likely to see poor treatment by police than a white person of the same class, but one with a tailored suit and a 'respectable' haircut is safer than one in casual wear- though, a wealthy black person not wearing the trappings of class is more likely to suffer prejudice.

I'm reminded of the black judge who had the police called on him for 'trying to break into his own house'. High class position, normally treated with great respect, normally his class privilege cancels out any lack of racial privilege, wear casuals in the morning and people assume he's breaking into the neighborhood.



And it does remain that regardless of class, black people are more likely to be treated as a threat by police, and police are less likely to use de-escalation tactics.


The first dozen shootings in NYC by police this year were half against white, half against black. All the white suspects were armed. 2/3rds of the black ones were unarmed.


Which is not to say the only problem is police vs the people. Rather, the lack of trust in the police exacerbates any local issues by removing the force that'd normally stop them. Police are less interested in getting involved and locals are less trustful of the police, so you see higher casualty rates from gang violence and the like. Other areas simply have better protection than black neighborhoods tend to.




I believe Bardock's point is it should come from state or federal, not local, because it being based on local values means that poorer neighborhoods get the shaft when they likely need more help.

Having it reliant on local funding means a poor area can be caught in a kind of death spiral. Kids get less opportunity for education to move to richer areas, stay in poorer areas by default, poorer area provides less good education, next generation's stuck too.



(Also, does anyone find T-I's attempts to dismiss everyone who disagrees with him as 'nonsense' or someone with 'zero clue' really sad? I mean, you and Bardock are having a pretty good back-and-forth, and he decides the one he doesn't agree with *obviously* has nothing to say, he can safely ignore all opinions that don't line up with his preconceptions!)




What I took away from your first paragraph is that, essentially, anyone can have 'privilege' via class and wealth, but at some point that privilege can be revoked, and when it occurs to a black person it's because of their lack of white privilege and racism, but when it happens to a white person it's apparently some form of outlier and doesn't change the point that they have white privilege, which is always on, it just didn't kick in in those instances when a white middle class person or person of wealth ends up on the wrong side of the law or is a victim of some other form of circumstance, like not getting a job with thousands of dollars of student loan debt, falling victim to predatory lending practices by a bank or hedge fund manager and losing their home, and then winding up sitting in a drum circle in Central Park for Occupy. You brought up an incident where a black law professor was detained as a possible home burglary suspect trying to enter his own home (the infamous "Beer Summit" incident). Just 3 weeks ago Sean Combs, aka Puff Daddy, aka P. Diddy (take that, take that, take that), a black rap producer, beat a white man with a f*ckin' kettlebell on the UCLA campus and wasn't shot on sight. That's why I find the concept of White Privilege bullshit. I'm black and have it better than a lot of white people, and I also have peaceful interactions with law enforcement because I:

-Don't engage in criminal activity.
-Don't frequent areas which are known for criminal activity.
-Have a clean criminal record.
-Am able to communicate calmly and rationally with others, including law enforcement.
-Don't assume the worst when I engage with law enforcement so I'm on the defensive or seem nervous.
-Don't attempt to flee.
-Don't antagonize.
-Comply if necessary, but it typically never gets to that point because I'm able to prove I'm not a suspect before the possibility of things escalating and simply provide my ID/Driver's Licence without issue.

As to the second part regarding educational funding, it DOES come from state and local taxation and subsidies (things like sales tax. lottery ticket sales, special assessments, etc), and the remainder that cities like Oakland or Baltimore receive for funding comes from local taxes (School taxes, prop funds, bonds, etc.) which are levied against local residential and commercial property. Poor management at the local level (OUSD for example, where I went to school, is notorious for this. I was in high school in the '90s when the OUSD proposed the "Ebonics Education" program to ask for additional state and federal funding in order to teach instructors how to teach their curriculums using street slang, all the while embezzling school funds and having the entire organization corrupted with nepotism) is a major culprit in this. School districts have most of their appropriations go to administrative costs or put money into programs which don't directly benefit the students.

And that fine bureaucratic mess doesn't even take into account the kinds of households a lot of these students come from where education isn't made a priority, or people who just come from broken homes and neighborhoods where criminality, hustling, sex bartering, and narcotic abuse are commonplace and they've been indoctrinated into the pariah mindset at a young age. A 4th period Trigonometry teacher making $42k a year isn't going to convince a student in 50 minutes a day that making fast money as a stripper or thief/dealer and pulling 5 figures a month isn't as beneficial or lucrative as sitting in that class room figuring out parabulas with a graphing calculator. Those kind of values really have to come from the home. The onice is on the parents and the neighborhood/influences those parents are bringing their children up around. As my Pops used to tell me, "You might be in it, but you're not of it".

tbh i think white priviledge obviously does exist and im white, and grew up relatively poor

it's also a buzzword that is thrown around too loosely these days though

The only people putting 'black' people down are them in theit own mind.

Originally posted by red g jacks
tbh i think white priviledge obviously does exist and im white, and grew up relatively poor

it's also a buzzword that is thrown around too loosely these days though

IMO it's way more class and location. Not to say that racism doesn't permeate our society upwards in terms of class (Oprah had an anecdote about shopping and being profiled as a credit card thief and being asked to leave a store), but moreso to say that the American Crab Barrel is far more turbulent at the lower levels.

well i think just that people do make judgements based on race in some cases unfortunately. and i really hate to say it but for the most part the examples i can think of involve my interactions with the police vs some other people i know of other races.

i mean i grew up around a lot of haitians and latinos who committed a lot of the same kinds of petty crimes that i committed and who i was friends with, yet pretty much all of them have bigger rap sheets than me just seemingly by virtue of being white. or maybe it's white + non-thuggish acting/innocent looking. like you said things like that do come into play as well.. but for whatever cultural reasons they all usually had that sort of thuggish way of dressing and speaking... which to a local cop often reads as a potential threat

vk-vnuOfMdU

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm not arguing against a statistic, I'm simply explaining why that statistic is the way it is, and it isn't because blacks are inherently more violent. I wish people who bring up the black murder rate would just man up and admit that that's what they're trying to say.

I replied to this post via PM because I don't want my post being used to perpetuate racism.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
F
What I took away from your first paragraph is that, essentially, anyone can have 'privilege' via class and wealth, but at some point that privilege can be revoked, and when it occurs to a black person it's because of their lack of white privilege and racism, but when it happens to a white person it's apparently some form of outlier and doesn't change the point that they have white privilege, which is always on, it just didn't kick in in those instances when a white middle class person or person of wealth ends up on the wrong side of the law or is a victim of some other form of circumstance, like not getting a job with thousands of dollars of student loan debt, falling victim to predatory lending practices by a bank or hedge fund manager and losing their home, and then winding up sitting in a drum circle in Central Park for Occupy.


Partially true, yes some privilege can be 'revoked,' but someone having privilege in an instance is not the same thing as immunity, and someone can have different privileges.


Another example would be marijuana usage- White people make up the majority of marijuana users, proportionally use marijuana more, but black people get arrested far more.


Article






Yeeees, but nothing about privilege says 'this will ALWAYS' happen, and P. Diddy is a famous celebrity.


Coming up with specific instances demonstrates things do happen, but in order to tell what's common and what one is *likely* to encounter, one needs wider data.





Here's a thing, though: Statistically, the problems I'm talking about exist.


I mean, remember my post about the people-killed-by-police-in-NYC. 2/3rds of the black people in that group were killed were following the number one rule of not getting shot, 'don't be armed,' and were shot anyway. No white people who followed that rule got shot.

You may avoid problems, but white people can avoid many of those problems without having to act as nicely. What social class they're perceived in also affects how likely they are to be arrested, given the same attitude.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/marijuana_use_rate_by_race_year.png

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/marijuana_arrest_rates_by_race_year.png

A white kid can go around smoking marijuana and be perceived as 'a good kid, just messing around.'

A black kid doing the same is much more likely to be, 'he's trouble, better take him to the station and get him off the streets.'



And, it varies by location:
https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/county_distribution_disparities.png

Yes, in some communities, you're literally 10 or more times as likely to be arrested for the same crime if you're black than if you're white.

A level of behavior which may be brushed off in one area, may not in another.



Yes, your behavior definitely can protect you. That still is not the same as the races, on the whole, being treated at all equally by police.


Heck, investigation of Ferguson revealed that local laws were set up to extract money from the local black poor, and they came up with BS citations that they could apply to anyone for almost any reason- the number of 'outstanding tickets' outnumbered the actual populace by 50%, and included things like 'failure to comply' (which can and does include failure to comply with being frisked for no reason), 'manner of walking,' and 90% of them were to black residents.

Second article

You may act well enough that in less racist communities you can get by just fine, but can you avoid manner of walking? I would like to see you try to avoid manner of walking.

Another article





Also, when things were brought to course, white residents were 68% more likely to have their cases dismissed.


The white people and black people in Ferguson were treated very differently, and it's not the only town like that, and as the article notes, it's quite unlikely to even be the worst. Other towns have a more mild slant, where it's just white people getting off for stuff black people wouldn't, but there is zero question that skin color, statistically, has a very large effect on your treatment by the law, and it can be 'not too noticeable but statistically present,' to 'massive.'


Ultimately, the difference in treatment is not really a matter of opinion. It's there and it's significant.

Originally posted by red g jacks
well i think just that people do make judgements based on race in some cases unfortunately. and i really hate to say it but for the most part the examples i can think of involve my interactions with the police vs some other people i know of other races.

i mean i grew up around a lot of haitians and latinos who committed a lot of the same kinds of petty crimes that i committed and who i was friends with, yet pretty much all of them have bigger rap sheets than me just seemingly by virtue of being white. or maybe it's white + non-thuggish acting/innocent looking. like you said things like that do come into play as well.. but for whatever cultural reasons they all usually had that sort of thuggish way of dressing and speaking... which to a local cop often reads as a potential threat

vk-vnuOfMdU

And by contrast, I myself am black, and I also grew up around and rolled with a lot of my own people, latinos (Mexican, Guatemalan, Salvadorian, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Cuban) and Asians (Thai, Filipino, Cambodian) out here in Oakland, primarily in the Dubs and Flatlands of East Oakland, and we all dressed like we stepped off the set of a 2Pac video (well, Redman moreso in my case as I wore a lot of Karl Kani and Pelle Pelle in the 90s. I'm originally a New Yorker), but we were all artists and video game addicts and spent more time going to arcades, going to each others cribs to play Goldeneye, Madden, and NWO/WCW Revenge on N64, and going to movie theatres than we did standing around on the corner in white tees (which, by the way, I'm not sure if you're aware, and I'm not sure if the code is the same in West Palm as it is in Oakland and neighboring areas, though I'm pretty sure it's universal hood code via the songs I've heard, but out here in Cali a dude on a corner/block in a baggy white tee would signify he's selling cocaine and possibly weed as well, and a black tee would signify heroine and possibly weed as well. Nowadays cats have even adopted purple tees to signify Purple Kush) or engaging in petty theft, and we had very little to no run-ins with police when we were in public. I guess it was our lack of availability in situations which could be perceived as suspect, like standing around on the block smoking, for example, which shielded us from possible police overreach. Also the fact that I'm in California and not in the South.

Ooooh, I just realize I left out the best stat to illustrate the point! Non-police involved, this time.

Ok, let's say Bardock goes and punches me out, and gets arrested for it. A conviction, serves his time, gets out.

Doing so drastically reduces his odds of being hired for a job in the US, of course.


So drastically, in fact, it would now equal yours, MF DELPH, with your crime avoidance and lack of convictions.


Assuming you have equal education. If he had greater education he'd still have the edge.


Now, if you both avoid convictions, different article, black college grads and white high school dropout have the same hiring odds.

Originally posted by Q99
Partially true, yes some privilege can be 'revoked,' but someone having privilege in an instance is not the same thing as immunity, and someone can have different privileges.


Another example would be marijuana usage- White people make up the majority of marijuana users, proportionally use marijuana more, but black people get arrested far more.


Article






Yeeees, but nothing about privilege says 'this will ALWAYS' happen, and P. Diddy is a famous celebrity.


Coming up with specific instances demonstrates things do happen, but in order to tell what's common and what one is *likely* to encounter, one needs wider data.





Here's a thing, though: Statistically, the problems I'm talking about exist.


I mean, remember my post about the people-killed-by-police-in-NYC. 2/3rds of the black people in that group were killed were following the number one rule of not getting shot, 'don't be armed,' and were shot anyway. No white people who followed that rule got shot.

You may avoid problems, but white people can avoid many of those problems without having to act as nicely. What social class they're perceived in also affects how likely they are to be arrested, given the same attitude.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/marijuana_use_rate_by_race_year.png

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/marijuana_arrest_rates_by_race_year.png

A white kid can go around smoking marijuana and be perceived as 'a good kid, just messing around.'

A black kid doing the same is much more likely to be, 'he's trouble, better take him to the station and get him off the streets.'



And, it varies by location:
https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/county_distribution_disparities.png

Yes, in some communities, you're literally 10 or more times as likely to be arrested for the same crime if you're black than if you're white.

A level of behavior which may be brushed off in one area, may not in another.



Yes, your behavior definitely can protect you. That still is not the same as the races, on the whole, being treated at all equally by police.


Heck, investigation of Ferguson revealed that local laws were set up to extract money from the local black poor, and they came up with BS citations that they could apply to anyone for almost any reason- the number of 'outstanding tickets' outnumbered the actual populace by 50%, and included things like 'failure to comply' (which can and does include failure to comply with being frisked for no reason), 'manner of walking,' and 90% of them were to black residents.

Second article

You may act well enough that in less racist communities you can get by just fine, but can you avoid manner of walking? I would like to see you try to avoid manner of walking.

Another article





Also, when things were brought to course, white residents were 68% more likely to have their cases dismissed.


The white people and black people in Ferguson were treated very differently, and it's not the only town like that, and as the article notes, it's quite unlikely to even be the worst. Other towns have a more mild slant, where it's just white people getting off for stuff black people wouldn't, but there is zero question that skin color, statistically, has a very large effect on your treatment by the law, and it can be 'not too noticeable but statistically present,' to 'massive.'


Ultimately, the difference in treatment is not really a matter of opinion. It's there and it's significant.

The disparity of drug charges also has to do with the fact that more times than not a white person isn't standing on a street corner making hand to hand sales whereas black distributors primarily use that method and expose themselves to more police action. It's not as cut and dry as they both use and sell weed so why aren't they both arrested at the same rate, most arrests are from distribution and that entails exposure to suspicion. You're not going to get exposed if you're selling weed out of a tool box or cooler inside of your house and only to people you know.

Also, I'm not denying that racism exists, but as I said before, 'privilege' has more to do with class and location. I don't live in Ferguson and my city, while crime ridden and primarily black, is a major city in California. I don't live in an impoverished suburb in the South or Midwest. Ferguson had Mike Brown. Oakland had Oscar Grant and the Oakland Riders. And yet I can walk down the street in my Ecko Polo, baggy jeans, and Jordans or drive around in my GTP on Helos and not have the police approach me about anything at all. The last time I had interaction with the police was reporting a crime in 2007. And I'm not a special case.

Originally posted by MF DELPH

Also, I'm not denying that racism exists, but as I said before, 'privilege' has more to do with class and location.

Well, that's the thing, race and class are very, very often linked, and plenty of locations - and circumstances in almost any location in the US - will treat you more negatively because you're black, much more so than white people have to worry about.

It does vary place to place, it's not universal, but it's definitely a thing.

Even where you are, there's certainly a difference in treatment. Sure, you've gotten pretty good at avoiding it, your areas good enough that it's relatively easy, but it remains that there is things you have to be more conscious of than a white person, and stuff like being hired for a job is a concern wherever you are (see my post above your latest one).

I had no issue seeking employment, went to public schools in "The Hood" and have never been in any form of legal trouble. It's not really a matter of getting good at avoiding it, I've simply lived my life. I don't have to be extra cautious to avoid being associated with criminal activities or criminal elements. I've never rolled in those circles to begin with. Regular dealings with law enforcement is not synonymous with the Black Experience. If a person is interacting with Police often there's likely some life choices they've made that have put them in that situation. Whether it be association with people involved in criminal activity or frequenting locations known for that kind of activity. I'm fairly certain that most of the black people on this site other than myself don't interact with law enforcement on a regular basis and are either employed or going to school. That's just common behavior.

Originally posted by MF DELPH




And that fine bureaucratic mess doesn't even take into account the kinds of households a lot of these students come from where education isn't made a priority, or people who just come from broken homes and neighborhoods where criminality, hustling, sex bartering, and narcotic abuse are commonplace and they've been indoctrinated into the pariah mindset at a young age. A 4th period Trigonometry teacher making $42k a year isn't going to convince a student in 50 minutes a day that making fast money as a stripper or thief/dealer and pulling 5 figures a month isn't as beneficial or lucrative as sitting in that class room figuring out parabulas with a graphing calculator. Those kind of values really have to come from the home. The onice is on the parents and the neighborhood/influences those parents are bringing their children up around. As my Pops used to tell me, "You might be in it, but you're not of it".

I was avoiding the thread at first due to how these things tend to go, but I'll comment on this.

First some background. I live in I suppose southern part midwest, and while I live in the general region of ferguson I don't actually live in it. In my specific place the police aren't a problem they are pretty much on their jobs, yes they visit the black community a lot but because of increased open crime, and it's just easier to deal with crime you see versus the less public crime in other areas. I get asked by police all the time about information but never actually harassed or held against my will and most others here are the same.

Anyway though my city has a very large wealth gap between the races, most of the black people are segmented off in what are the remnants of the blacks only part of town (only not as well upkept) and the areas right outside of it that whites moved out of. The blacks only highschool from my father's early childhood still stands in my neighborhood. We don't go to what was likely a shitty school though, our white community is very wealthy likely more so than most other midwestern towns. And they pump their money into the public schools that they went into and send their kids to as such we have one of the best school districts in our state. We are very fortunate here, a lot of the nearby black areas have terrible schools that get shut down or lost their credits and as such many of them are bussed to us a large number have been sent here since they were 5 years old. We have a great school with proper funding and even have programs in place to help the black community here because it still suffers from the effects Jim crow era, we give them more attention and go out of our way to help, I know because I was in one of those programs. Now I didn't take advantage of it and mostly wasted it but that was on me. My brother and sister did better with it, because my mother and even my father(who normally wasn't around much) pushed them to make use of that education and better their lives so they didn't have to be like everyone else.

A large number of people in my community here don't give a shit for reasons delph states. They have the right schools and tools to get this education people speak so highly off but their family life and environment makes it so they don't care it prioritizes other stuff and encourages criminal activity. Where being a thug is cool and how to be a man, and snagging those kinds of men is what women are told to want so they act the part and go into the same trap instead of bettering themselves. Where older siblings spend all day in the streets causing trouble and tell their younger ones that it is what life is about, and they pass the same to their kids when they have them. Or worse just leave them to let the streets raise them like what happened to them. It's not just fathers either, some single mothers here are hard core criminals themselves who only tell their kids the importance of not getting caught instead of doing what is right. Access to education alone won't fix the problem here, we have to fix the mindset.

Racism is here, I've experienced it personally multiple times. But it's not the big problem in my specific area. And that's the thing you have to focus on what is needed for the group in question, not lump and point the blame at the police for every area.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
And by contrast, I myself am black, and I also grew up around and rolled with a lot of my own people, latinos (Mexican, Guatemalan, Salvadorian, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Cuban) and Asians (Thai, Filipino, Cambodian) out here in Oakland, primarily in the Dubs and Flatlands of East Oakland, and we all dressed like we stepped off the set of a 2Pac video (well, Redman moreso in my case as I wore a lot of Karl Kani and Pelle Pelle in the 90s. I'm originally a New Yorker), but we were all artists and video game addicts and spent more time going to arcades, going to each others cribs to play Goldeneye, Madden, and NWO/WCW Revenge on N64, and going to movie theatres than we did standing around on the corner in white tees (which, by the way, I'm not sure if you're aware, and I'm not sure if the code is the same in West Palm as it is in Oakland and neighboring areas, though I'm pretty sure it's universal hood code via the songs I've heard, but out here in Cali a dude on a corner/block in a baggy white tee would signify he's selling cocaine and possibly weed as well, and a black tee would signify heroine and possibly weed as well. Nowadays cats have even adopted purple tees to signify Purple Kush) or engaging in petty theft, and we had very little to no run-ins with police when we were in public. I guess it was our lack of availability in situations which could be perceived as suspect, like standing around on the block smoking, for example, which shielded us from possible police overreach. Also the fact that I'm in California and not in the South. yea... well like take the white tee example... i understand what you mean about the code and all that. at the same time, corner stores sell those t's for 5 bucks a piece. you would see a lot of people wearing white or black tees down there. not all of them are drug dealers. but because that's the fashion... they look the part.

the neighborhood i lived in had a haitian gang that didn't fly any particular colors, didn't make themselves easily identifiable to the police... and if you asked about the name of the gang (top 6) they would say they're not a gang they're a rap group.

Originally posted by red g jacks
tell us some more about how much you hate black people

Looks to me like they hate themselves enough with out me having to get involved.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm not saying racism doesn't exist here, it just seems that..well, you tend to see some people who act like the biggest problems the community faces do not come from within the community.

So I think when people talk about "putting things in context" when the dude is talking about how you are a lot more likely to be killed if black..why not point out the rest, which is it is most likely a member of the same race who will be killing you?

The problem is I'm white..I can't talk about this. Or..well, I can, but it means something different if it comes from a person within the community. Do you know who the biggest killers of white people are? other white people.

Do you know who the biggest killers of Latino people are? Other Latino people.

Do You know who the biggest killers of Asian people are? Other Asian people.

etc., etc., etc.

People tend to kill the people they know and the people they're around the most.


The occurrence of black people killing other black more than white people committing hate crimes (perceived or factual) does not negate that or invalidate the hate crimes.

Originally posted by red g jacks
yea... well like take the white tee example... i understand what you mean about the code and all that. at the same time, corner stores sell those t's for 5 bucks a piece. you would see a lot of people wearing white or black tees down there. not all of them are drug dealers. but because that's the fashion... they look the part.

the neighborhood i lived in had a haitian gang that didn't fly any particular colors, didn't make themselves easily identifiable to the police... and if you asked about the name of the gang (top 6) they would say they're not a gang they're a rap group.

That's the fashion because it's supposed to emulate drug dealing/"Trap Life". Cats want to look like 'Trap Kings'. Just like sagging is a fashion trend which started in prison and permeated pop culture via gangsta rap, which glorifies the bullsh*t. That's kinda the point. Emulating a bad boy image. The catch being, however, you now look like a drug dealer in an area known for drug traffic, and the Police can't tell you're just dressed in Trapface, hence someone being treated like the drug dealers they are imitating on the same turf as the actual drug dealers. They make themselves decoys. The corner stores, on the other side of the coin, turn a profit by buying white and black (and purple and green nowadays) cotton tees in bulk and selling them to the dealers and the posers alike for a 200% or more mark up on wholesale. Corner stores out here also started selling white cotton towels that say "Town Biz" (Oakland's nickname is "The Town" because hanging a white towel out your back pocket also signals you got that work and they can make money from it. Local taxi companies are in on the be BS as well taking money under the table to ferry drugs and prostitutes. Oakland's f*cked up man.

Originally posted by marwash22
Do you know who the biggest killers of white people are? other white people.

Do you know who the biggest killers of Latino people are? Other Latino people.

Do You know who the biggest killers of Asian people are? Other Asian people.

etc., etc., etc.

People tend to kill the people they know and the people they're around the most.


The occurrence of black people killing other black more than white people committing hate crimes (perceived or factual) does not negate that or invalidate the hate crimes.

So the point is people kill other people. Regardless of race.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I had no issue seeking employment, went to public schools in "The Hood" and have never been in any form of legal trouble.


So? The point is there's a statistical disadvantage.


If 10 black and 10 white people do the same things, more black people will end up without jobs.

"Because it didn't hit me personally," doesn't mean it's not there and significant.




Of course. And so is everyone else, and your path- where you are, your choices, etc.- happened to not run into it.


To use a video game analogy, it's like encounter rates/loot drops/etc..

Give one type of character +3% encounter rate (+10% in certain areas), enemies more likely to attack that class when there's a chance, and -10% loot drops on the top-tier items, and... you will have a good number of players not even notice because some will still get the top tier loot by chance and stats and build choices will hide some of that data, but on the wide scale the class will be disadvantaged and not show up in the higher tiers as often- even if the players are otherwise just as skillful.



And if someone says, "Oh, all the classes are equal, look at the few who did make it in, they didn't do anything special," the latter part of the statement is true, but the first part isn't, because it's about odds and the odds are stacked.



The thing about odds is they are sometimes unnoticed, because you didn't run into one of the 'gotchas' or super-obvious disadvantages. Doesn't mean they aren't there, there is... ample evidence of that.

Bruh, I live in OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA, not Utopia. There's Police brutality and rampant poverty HERE (hence my Oscar Grant reference from before). Head over to Hegenberger or 98th and E 14 and tell me my encounter rate has been buffed. You're telling me that statistically my life sucks and I live in a perpetual threat of Police assault and White Subjugation, and statistically I shouldn't have been employed for the last 18 years, despite the fact I, in reality, have, because of my choices and work ethic. I'm thinking the subjects of those statistics might just engage in a lot of behavior that hinders their chances at progress and has them tangling with cops regularly, and I've witnessed it firsthand. This is starting to sound a lot like the "Kept" doctrine Liberals use. Your throwing numbers at me that don't depict the actual conditions on the ground and trying to make it seem that I, someone who actually is living this experience, don't know how bad I have it, because your chart says so. I'm pretty certain that these charts don't take into account the actions and behavior of those who make up the stats, like men and women who stay unemployed on paper and get paid under the table in order to keep their Section 8 vouchers and live in places like Piedmont or Antioch (while selling weed), or the cats with rap sheets as long as this exchange between us who fought with a cop and disregarded orders to submit before having a sidearm drawn on them, it just shows that they're unemployed or were involved in an incident with Police and are/were black. That's not the full picture. And to say things here are as bad as Hutu and Tutsi Rwanda? C'mon man. Ain't no one going after Beyonce with a machete because she's light skinned. This kind of sensationalism hurts more than it helps, and I actually find it insulting. I kinda took offense to your "Sure, you've gotten pretty good at avoiding it" comment, though I know there was no ill intent there. Your position gives me the impression that you think regular run ins with law enforcement are the norm for a black man and I just found a cheat code.

I'm glad you shared a piece of your life with us, makes me feel sympathetic for good working black Americans out there who complies and move along with their lives.

and you lived in Oakland? I made a vow to never step into that place, don't want to be robbed or killed by stray bullets.

Would you say he's a credit to his race vasonbee?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Would you say he's a credit to his race vasonbee? I'll say he is outstanding citizen and if everyone was like him, I'll say its a perfect society.

"Poor black people, they have it so hard being black. We should pity them!"

- A bunch of white people when reading the thread.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Would you say he's a credit to his race vasonbee?

awful

Originally posted by One Big Mob
"Poor black people, they have it so hard being black. We should pity them!"

- Liberals who think they are not being racist but actually are


Fixed that for you.

Originally posted by marwash22
Do you know who the biggest killers of white people are? other white people. Edit - oh man...you're right. White people murder the f*ck out of each other....but not really if you consider how many white people there are.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Edit - oh man...you're right. White people murder the f*ck out of each other....but not really if you consider how many white people there are.

True. The issue is making it seem like every black on white killing is "outrageous" but white on black it "racist."

Originally posted by dadudemon
Fixed that for you. While you might think it is fun to mock liberals there is data and studies to support that growing up black adds additional barriers and bias to achieving success.

Originally posted by Newjak
While you might think it is fun to mock liberals there is data and studies to support that growing up black adds additional barriers and bias to achieving success.

You really did miss my point.

"ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them." <- That's pretty racist and that's what quite a bit of the American liberal sentiment boils down to. I think I've posted this 3 times now but some black people find that shit offensive. Youtube has some videos of semi-famous black youtubers addressing that notion, directly, if you're curious.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You really did miss my point.

"ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them." <- That's pretty racist and that's what quite a bit of the American liberal sentiment boils down to. I think I've posted this 3 times now but some black people find that shit offensive. Youtube has some videos of semi-famous black youtubers addressing that notion, directly, if you're curious. Yeah that's not what I took from your comment sorry for the misunderstanding.

I don't think most people think Black people are savage or in capable of doing things for themselves. I think most people simply are trying to get people to admit that there is a problem and that if it is a problem we are going to fix it is going to take people from all sides to focus and figure out ways to handle these problems.

There is a group of people that don't even want to admit that there is a problem or that the problem is strictly the fault of African Americans.

Originally posted by Newjak
I don't think most people think Black people are savage or in capable of doing things for themselves.

Because they think the black community cannot "do it without me", they are indirectly implying that even if they do not acknowledge it directly. Uhh...racism with an ugly and misplaced sense of righteousness is the best way to describe that.

It gets tiring reading about how white people need to help the poor, ignorant, savage, black man.

I don't think your accusation of how liberals think is at all accurate. In my experience no one who supports civil rights thinks that black people are savages or incapable of doing things themselves, nor do they think they themselves are needed. They just want to make a positive contribution to an actual problem that exists.

Or to put it more in the terms you put it:

Not "ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them." but "ohhh, poor black people! They have a shitty deal and I and people of my race benefit from the double standards that exist! I should support their efforts to right this wrong"

And not "the black community cannot do it without me" but "the black community can benefit from my support and I want to lend it"

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't think your accusation of how liberals think is at all accurate. In my experience no one who supports civil rights thinks that black people are savages or incapable of doing things themselves, nor do they think they themselves are needed. They just want to make a positive contribution to an actual problem that exists.

Or to put it more in the terms you put it:

Not "ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them." but "ohhh, poor black people! They have a shitty deal and I and people of my race benefit from the double standards that exist! I should support their efforts to right this wrong"

And not "the black community cannot do it without me" but "the black community can benefit from my support and I want to lend it"

I disagree with what you're saying, here, and I think you're just playing word games to make sentiments like yours seem less racist. You're just shifting the degrees, ever so slightly, to come out from under the racist radar.

What do your points actually boil down to? That you are privileged and that you think they need your help AND that they can't improve without your help. Don't candy-coat it to make yourself feel better.


When it comes to racism, I don't think word games do any good.



What do you think a financially successful white American should be doing to combat American racism without coming off as racist in the manner I describe?

Originally posted by dadudemon


What do you think a financially successful white American should be doing to combat American racism without coming off as racist in the manner I describe?

Not talk to any insane people that have completely skewed views of what racism is?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not talk to any insane people that have completely skewed views of what racism is?

You didn't actually give an answer, at all. You said what not to do. That question was about what we should/could do.


So I can assume you are full of empty rhetoric? You just want to state what is or is not racist while posting what you think are feel-good ideas on a message board?

Originally posted by dadudemon
You didn't actually give an answer, at all. You said what not to do. That question was about what we should/could do.


So I can assume you are full of empty rhetoric? You just want to state what is or is not racist while posting what you think are feel-good ideas on a message board?

Spot on. Been saying this for years.

Your question was based on your skewed view. You can't preoccupy yourself with what some people will perceive incorrectly (you). The correct answer to it is still in my first post, i.e. no one thinks that black people need them and can't do it without them, they just see that there are problems and want to help. So just do your best to help and don't care about the non-issue of what dadudemon might think.

Liberal mentality has always been keep blacks dumbed down and reliant on the system. This fact is indisputable.

"Don't worry about it, let US take care of you."

"Well get you to the voting center's for free, just vote for us."

Originally posted by Bardock42
Your question was based on your skewed view. You can't preoccupy yourself with what some people will perceive incorrectly (you). The correct answer to it is still in my first post, i.e. no one thinks that black people need them and can't do it without them, they just see that there are problems and want to help. So just do your best to help and don't care about the non-issue of what dadudemon might think.

If you refuse to acknowledge that there is a large swathe of racism endemic in Liberal America (which is acknowledged by liberal and/or black Americans (not mutually exclusive groups)), then you have no part in this conversation. We can't discuss moving a large rock if you refuse to believe the rock exists to begin with.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Liberal mentality has always been keep blacks dumbed down and reliant on the system. This fact is indisputable.

"Don't worry about it, let US take care of you."

"Well get you to the voting center's for free, just vote for us."

That much is obvious. But people like Bardock42 think that issue doesn't exist and the liberal white people in America just can't be racist because all they want to help the "poor savage black people."


http://www.columbiatribune.com/a/rop/progressives-coddling-hurts-blacks/article_d331ed30-0c1e-11e3-99b6-10604b9f1ff4.html

I don't agree with this guy's cut-throat education solution but I do agree with his underpinning point: progessive coddling is just another form of racism.

And let's not forget that if you're black and not liberal, "you're a dumb person of color that has been brain-washed by racist white people."


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/275013/patronizing-progressives-pallor-michelle-malkin

Well Bardock lived in the US for a short time, 6 months I believe, and lived in the the whitest state in America, Maine, so he has true culture diversity training in America.

And yes,

"And let's not forget that if you're black and not liberal, "you're a dumb person of color that has been brain-washed by racist white people."

So true. You have to be black and liberal to be a smart black person, if you are not, you have been brainwashed by Rush Limbaugh.

Lets not forget that liberal democrats raised the confederate flag, and started slavery. But its the republicans fault for not talking the confederate flag down quicker.

There is racism in white liberals of course, it's just not really the way you describe it. What you are complaining about is really mostly a misunderstanding of the white saviour complex, which does exist, but is not generally aimed at black people living in the US, it's more liberal and religious white Americans thinking they have to save "Africa" in some way.

People who are in favour of the civil rights movement is a completely different thing though. Almost no one in favour of civil rights thinks that Black people are savages or incapable of helping themselves, they just want to support the efforts that already exist in black communities. And that's not a semantic difference, it's a fundamentally different mindset.

Originally posted by Bardock42
There is racism in white liberals of course, it's just not really the way you describe it. What you are complaining about is really mostly a misunderstanding of the white saviour complex, which does exist, but is not generally aimed at black people living in the US, it's more liberal and religious white Americans thinking they have to save "Africa" in some way.

People who are in favour of the civil rights movement is a completely different thing though. Almost no one in favour of civil rights thinks that Black people are savages or incapable of helping themselves, they just want to support the efforts that already exist in black communities. And that's not a semantic difference, it's a fundamentally different mindset.

What is your experience in this matter, or is all of this just your opinion, because opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. All you see and hear is what the media tells you, have you ever lived in a diverse area such as LA, NYC, LV, or the South?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Lets not forget that liberal democrats raised the confederate flag, and started slavery. But its the republicans fault for not talking the confederate flag down quicker.
The two parties have changed so much since the 1850s that it's pretty much like comparing dinosaurs to turkeys.

Still this was hung on the republicans neck, remember?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
What is your experience in this matter, or is all of this just your opinion, because opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. All you see and hear is what the media tells you, have you ever lived in a diverse area such as LA, NYC, LV, or the South?

A lot of the people I talk to and follow online are in favour of the civil rights movement and discuss just these kinds of issues. I read and watch a multitude of international and US media and pundits discussing issues of race in the US and abroad. Also the "white saviour complex" is a very well known trope you can read more about yourself if you are interested. Additionally I lived in multiple countries with different circumstances, but anecdotal evidence is obviously the weakest thing to go on.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Because they think the black community cannot "do it without me", they are indirectly implying that even if they do not acknowledge it directly. Uhh...racism with an ugly and misplaced sense of righteousness is the best way to describe that.

It gets tiring reading about how white people need to help the poor, ignorant, savage, black man. I'm sorry but that just is not logically true. It does not conclude that the desire to help another group of people indicates that you think that group is inferior/less capable as human beings than yours.

A desire to help solve a verified problem does not mean you think the other people are stupid or incapable of doing anything. It simply shows that you understand a problem is present and you want to help. In the case of social issues it actually is better the more people understand there is a broken system/cultural bias that needs to be fixed because it does help make solving the problem easier.

Originally posted by Bardock42
A lot of the people I talk to and follow online are in favour of the civil rights movement and discuss just these kinds of issues. I read and watch a multitude of international and US media and pundits discussing issues of race in the US and abroad. Also the "white saviour complex" is a very well known trope you can read more about yourself if you are interested. Additionally I lived in multiple countries with different circumstances, but anecdotal evidence is obviously the weakest thing to go on.

Ok but we are specifically talking about America. Which you primary focus on, hearing from friends across the pond off some text on a computer screen is not the same thing as living in a culturally diverse area such as LA or NYC or Vegas or the South, or Texas. Did you know in California, whites are the minority now? Have you ever been robbed at gunpoint?

The race talks abroad are not relevant to this conversation. Anecdotal is real life, vs , your made up theories of how things are. But since you are liberal, no experience is necessary for a say running for president.

Originally posted by Bardock42
There is racism in white liberals of course,

K, we are getting somewhere...maybe...

Originally posted by Bardock42
..it's just not really the way you describe it. What you are complaining about is really mostly a misunderstanding of the white saviour complex, which does exist, but is not generally aimed at black people living in the US, it's more liberal and religious white Americans thinking they have to save "Africa" in some way.

Ha! So close! Sorry, no, that's not it. It's literally about progressives thinking and actually coddling black people. What you describe is an entirely separate issue.



Originally posted by Bardock42
Almost no one in favour of civil rights thinks that Black people are savages or incapable of helping themselves

Granted, this is a strawman of my actual point. So, at this point, it is not necessary to address this.

Originally posted by Newjak
I'm sorry but that just is not logically true. It does not conclude that the desire to help...

Depends on your motivations for helping and exactly what constitutes that help.

Since I'm referring to a specific type of white person*, yeah, it does mean that.

*And they are numerous.

Originally posted by dadudemon


Granted, this is a strawman of my actual point. So, at this point, it is not necessary to address this.

Originally posted by dadudemon

"ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them." <- That's pretty racist and that's what quite a bit of the American liberal sentiment boils down to.


Just leaving this here.

Did you know that a black person can get a job at McDonalds now a days and do well for themselves? Or many other places, like Walmart. I'm sick and tired of hearing black people cannot move up, its completely untrue. And that somehow they are still oppressed.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Did you know that a black person can get a job at McDonalds now a days and do well for themselves? Or many other places, like Walmart. I'm sick and tired of hearing black people cannot movie up, its completely untrue. And that somehow they are still oppressed.

You're joking, right?

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you refuse to acknowledge that there is a large swathe of racism endemic in Liberal America (which is acknowledged by liberal and/or black Americans (not mutually exclusive groups)), then you have no part in this conversation. We can't discuss moving a large rock if you refuse to believe the rock exists to begin with.



That much is obvious. But people like Bardock42 think that issue doesn't exist and the liberal white people in America just can't be racist because all they want to help the "poor savage black people."


http://www.columbiatribune.com/a/rop/progressives-coddling-hurts-blacks/article_d331ed30-0c1e-11e3-99b6-10604b9f1ff4.html

I don't agree with this guy's cut-throat education solution but I do agree with his underpinning point: progessive coddling is just another form of racism.

And let's not forget that if you're black and not liberal, "you're a dumb person of color that has been brain-washed by racist white people."


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/275013/patronizing-progressives-pallor-michelle-malkin I'm sorry I'm not saying you are stupid but this line of thought is extremely stupid because it is based on false thinking around civil rights and trying to improve what are clearly broken systems.

Let me try to explain it to you.

Let's say we have two people. They have the same mental and physical abilities. The only difference is that one has blue eyes the other has brown. These two people exist in a world where the only job is moving basketball sized debris from one area to another. That is how they get payed that is how they earn a living. The only technology that exists to help with this job is wheel-barrows. Now the problem is that the blue eyed people were not allowed to own wheel-barrows so that guy couldn't use one while the brown eyed person owns 10. This makes the brown eyed person more productive even though they have the same physical/mental facilities. Now at some point it becomes legal for the blue eyed person to have a wheel barrow but the brown eyed person already has most of the wheel barrows and the blue eyed person can not afford a new one because they haven't been as productive as the brown eyed person. They want to make one but the materials for making wheel barrows are also costly to come by. Eventually though he is able to scrap by and get one wheel barrow. In the mean time the one with ten was able to get another ten i nthat same time span.

Now the two people die soon after that though and have two children each. The brown eyed person passes 10 wheel barrows to each child of his while the blue eyed person could only pass down one wheel barrow that his children have to share.

The brown eyed people continue to thrive while the blued children are just barely getting buy. Once again these children are like their parents completely equal in every way. Each of the brown eyed kids can use a wheel barrow and so they are twice as productive as their parent was. The blue eyed kids each have to take a turn with the wheel barrow while the other one has to use their hands. They are still not as productive as the brown eyed people because they simply do not have the means to keep up. They work hard though and procure another wheel barrow before they die. The brown eyed ones not forced to worry get another ten wheel barrows each.

Now each of those people also have two children a piece. So now each brown eyed child still gets 10 wheel barrows apiece. Only 2 of the blue eyed children can have a wheel barrow but one still get left out.

Now one of the brown eyed people are starting to notice a unfair pattern. The blue eyed people simply can not keep up because they're ability to gain wheel barrows as been extremely limited and biased from the beginning even though they know they are equals. That brown eyed person decides to help fix a broken system by offering 2 of their wheel barrows to the blue eyed community not because he thinks they are weak or savagee or can not produce but because the system has stacked the deck against them and they need help.

You're that one guy saying the person trying to help is the racist one when all they're doing is confirming a broken system and trying to help fix a system that has overtly favored them over another group. You're whole line of reasoning is absurd and your reasoning is part of the problem.

Originally posted by AbnormalButSane
You're joking, right?

No, and with free education that many blacks can easily qualify for, its entirely possible to move up as far as a person wants to go. Politician, Doctor, CEO, President.

Obama is primary example.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Depends on your motivations for helping and exactly what constitutes that help.

Since I'm referring to a specific type of white person*, yeah, it does mean that.

*And they are numerous. How do you know they are numerous? Because you're lying if you tell me you have actual figures on the subject.

So please by all means tell me what your source is.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Just leaving this here.

Just leaving this here:


Originally posted by dadudemon
You really did miss my point.

"ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them." <- That's pretty racist and that's what quite a bit of the American liberal sentiment boils down to.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Because they think the black community cannot "do it without me", they are indirectly implying that even if they do not acknowledge it directly.

Do you honestly think that I think that American Progressives say: "ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them."

Because that is quite a bit of mental gymnastics on your part.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Just leaving this here:






Do you honestly think that I think that American Progressives say: "ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them."

Because that is quite a bit of mental gymnastics on your part. The problem is that is what YOU are boiling down to.

There are stats to back up your claim. It's just a way you're trying to demonize liberals while ignoring an actual racial discrimination problem.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Do you honestly think that I think that American Progressives say: "ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them."

Because that is quite a bit of mental gymnastics on your part.


Damn this was ownage.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Just leaving this here:






Do you honestly think that I think that American Progressives say: "ohhhh, poor black people! They are so savage and helpless! They need me to rescue them."

Because that is quite a bit of mental gymnastics on your part.

You can't exactly blame Bardock for your poor argument.

Originally posted by Newjak
You're that one guy saying the person trying to help is the racist one when all they're doing is confirming a broken system and trying to help fix a system that has overtly favored them over another group. You're whole line of reasoning is absurd and your reasoning is part of the problem.

Let's avoid false-analogies and strawman metaphors and literally stick with what I stated. It avoids lengthy posts.

Nope. I'm not that one guy. I'm that one guy literally stating that racist progressives are being racist when they think black people are too dumb, stupid, and incapable of helping themselves and need white power to get anywhere.


I asked for an example from Bardock42 that avoids this conondrum and he hid behind words (he does that). He didn't actually offer anything.


Here's a hint: throwing money at black people is not a solution and that represents part of what I'm talking about. Sure, money helps, but it needs to be done in a way that is more than just trying to help subversively racist white people rid themselves of their white guilt.

But I'm open to actual solutions. Do you have any? Several black professors have solutions...I should research those...

Originally posted by dadudemon
Let's avoid false-analogies and strawman metaphors and literally stick with what I stated. It avoids lengthy posts.

Nope. I'm not that one guy. I'm that one guy literally stating that racist progressives are being racist when they think black people are too dumb, stupid, and incapable of helping themselves and need white power to get anywhere.


I asked for an example from Bardock42 that avoids this conondrum and he hid behind words (he does that). He didn't actually offer anything.


Here's a hint: throwing money at black people is not a solution and that represents part of what I'm talking about. Sure, money helps, but it needs to be done in a way that is more than just trying to help subversively racist white people rid themselves of their white guilt.

But I'm open to actual solutions. Do you have any? Several black professors have solutions...I should research those... That's is your own unbacked conclusion that does nothing to actually help stop the problem of racial discrimination in this country.

AND it is not a conundrum. You're only making it out to be one. By wanting to help solve the racial problem does not make you a racist or a person believes black people are inferior in anyway in terms of actual human capabilities.

At this point I actually feel like you're derailing this thread with just silly claims.

Originally posted by Newjak
The problem is that is what YOU are boiling down to.

And I'm fine with calling out bullshit racism for just that. Just because I characterize their position, with hyperbole, does not make it untrue.

Originally posted by Newjak
It's just a way you're trying to demonize liberals while ignoring an actual racial discrimination problem.

Oh really? Because I have a quote that directly contradicts you, here:


Originally posted by dadudemon
What do you think a financially successful white American should be doing to combat American racism without coming off as racist in the manner I describe?

Quite clearly, I acknowledge the problem. Quite clearly, I also want to avoid becoming the racist white progressive I describe, as well.

This is a mulligan. I'll just assume that you missed this part of one of my posts rather than assume you're going out of you way to lie about things I've stated. It's me: I'm the ****ing dadudemon - ain't nobody gonna get the drop on me on words I've posted. 313

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/SNAPCharts1_1.png


Demographics in US in Millions

White People: 196,817,552

Black People: 37,685,848

Originally posted by AbnormalButSane
You can't exactly blame Bardock for your poor argument.

You're right: I can blame him for his poor characterization and argument.

Originally posted by Newjak
By wanting to help solve the racial problem does not make you a racist or a person believes black people are inferior in anyway in terms of actual human capabilities.

This is mostly a red herring on your part. This is not really my argument.


And, honestly, only on KMC, which is rife with Liberal Apologists, would my argument be seen as silly and "derailing." I have never seen such a nest of liberal apologists in one single place before. Don't get comfortable in thinking you're in some sort of majority, here. Talk to the average black man and ask him how much he likes to be coddled by people like you and Bardock42. Let me know if he thinks it is subversive racism or not.

Likely, you won't ask. Nor will anyone in this thread (likely because most white people posting in this thread actually do not know any black people in real life). Because you are content with your idea of what it means to be "righteous." Stop to think about how your perspectives and approaches might also be racist.

I still haven't read any actual good ideas for black issues, by the way. Just empty rhetoric.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And I'm fine with calling out bullshit racism for just that. Just because I characterize their position, with hyperbole, does not make it untrue.



Oh really? Because I have a quote that directly contradicts you, here:




Quite clearly, I acknowledge the problem. Quite clearly, I also want to avoid becoming the racist white progressive I describe, as well.

This is a mulligan. I'll just assume that you missed this part of one of my posts rather than assume you're going out of you way to lie about things I've stated. It's me: I'm the ****ing dadudemon - ain't nobody gonna get the drop on me on words I've posted. 313 The problem is you are using hyperbole. It is in the same vain as saying all liberals who care about child labor are secretly pedophiles that don't want to admit it. It's a terrible way to argue because for one no one can really disprove it,despite the absurdity of the claim, but it also does nothing to help the central problem. You're statement currently can not be proven false or true but it does nothing to help the main problem posed. It actually does the opposite it's is you name calling people it making it a negative scenario to want to help other people.

The answer is simple don't be a racist and still help. That's what most people I think do.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/SNAPCharts1_1.png


Demographics in US in Millions

White People: 196,817,552

Black People: 37,685,848

Your point is better made if you also put down the percentages of each race.


If the chart was reflective of the percentages of race, the white category would be at 70%+, black around 11-13%, and so forth.


However, some would complain that white privilege has led to white people being more financially successful and that a proper race ratio-argument is not appropriate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is mostly a red herring on your part. This is not really my argument.


And, honestly, only on KMC, which is rife with Liberal Apologists, would my argument be seen as silly and "derailing." I have never seen such a nest of liberal apologists in one single place before. Don't get comfortable in thinking you're in some sort of majority, here. Talk to the average black man and ask him how much he likes to be coddled by people like you and Bardock42. Let me know if he thinks it is subversive racism or not.

Likely, you won't ask. Nor will anyone in this thread (likely because most white people posting in this thread actually do not know any black people in real life). Because you are content with your idea of what it means to be "righteous." Stop to think about how your perspectives and approaches might also be racist.

I still haven't read any actual good ideas for black issues, by the way. Just empty rhetoric. More generalizations on the personal lives of other people without any substance. You don't know me or where I've lived or who I know.

It also doesn't actually change the central problem or wanting to help solve it.

Originally posted by Newjak
The problem is you are using hyperbole.

That's not a problem if you are being honest instead of attacking a strawman especially when I clarify myself within the same exact quote.

Don't go out of your way to misunderstand a person's point.

Originally posted by Newjak
It actually does the opposite it's is you name calling people it making it a negative scenario to want to help other people.

Name-calling who?

Originally posted by Newjak
The answer is simple don't be a racist and still help. That's what most people I think do.

That's not an answer at all. That much is implied in the question. Though I definitely agree with your statement, what specifically can be done?

Originally posted by Newjak
More generalizations on the personal lives of other people without any substance. You don't know me or where I've lived or who I know.

So does this mean you'll have this discussion with an actual black man instead of a bunch of privileged white people on the internet? Because that'd be totally awesome if you did.

Let me put it another way (since it seems you like comparisons).

If tons of people say women are incapable of holding jobs, and women protest and state that this is offensive, should people stop to reconsider their position as being offensive and sexist? Or should they just continue and say "those women have no point. We are doing nothing wrong. We are true feminists, bro!!!"?

Originally posted by dadudemon
So does this mean you'll have this discussion with an actual black man instead of a bunch of privileged white people on the internet? Because that'd be totally awesome if you did.

Let me put it another way (since it seems you like comparisons).

If tons of people say women are incapable of holding jobs, and women protest and state that this is offensive, should people stop to reconsider their position as being offensive and sexist? Or should they just continue and say "those women have no point. We are doing nothing wrong. We are true feminists, bro!!!"? Once again you don't know me or who I've talked to about this. Or why that somehow invalidates my point.

That's not an accurate assessment.

The better comparison would be you calling the men that agree with the protesting women and wanting to help msygonists for wanting to help.