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Who wins?

What?

... Talzin.

Hm, Dooku if it's not on Dathomir.

Vos would take Talzin regardless of the location.

Talzin will kill him either way, eet ees only a mattur of how PAINFUL eet will be...

Dooku imo.

Talzin.

Why do people think she can beat him in open combat ?

Talzin with Dathomir amp was an equal for Sidious, Talzin even without Dathomir should be too strong for Dooku.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Talzin with Dathomir amp was an equal for Sidious, Talzin even without Dathomir should be too strong for Dooku.

I wonder why people don't apply the same logic to Bane era.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Talzin with Dathomir amp was an equal for Sidious, Talzin even without Dathomir should be too strong for Dooku. Based on ? Right now you're just saying things.

Originally posted by Sinious
I wonder why people don't apply the same logic to Bane era.

Because it's bad logic.

I see no reason to assume that Dathomir is more helpful to Talzin than it is to Sidious, it's a dark side nexus.

There's the whole aspect of her powers where she requires an abundance of life to use them to their full power.

"She holds great power on Dathomir."
"If I was on Dathomir I would be able to heal myself."

Originally posted by ILS
There's the whole aspect of her powers where she requires an abundance of life to use them to their full power.

"She holds great power on Dathomir."
"If I was on Dathomir I would be able to heal myself."

Doesn't that apply to all force users? Regardless, if she holds no power off of Dathomir, then I don't even see the point of discussing her without it.

Well, the Force runs through even the air as far as I know, being a virtually limitless energy field.. the only exception I know of is machinery and the like. Talzin seems to draw power from plantlife strong with Force energy, which Dathomir has in abundance.

Makes her hard to gauge anywhere else. When she was in a "sterile" environment, a ship, she was unable to maintain the illusion of a few dozen nightsisters (that I recall) and couldn't heal herself of a blaster wound, much less kill the group of mercenaries she was fighting, whereas Sidious killed them easily and even threatened to kill Talzin on the spot.. whereas on Dathomir she can give Sidious a fair run for his money.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on ? Right now you're just saying things.

Based on the fact that Dooku isn't even in the same magnitude of power as Darth Sidious, an amp anything short of oneness wouldn't have such an effect as to climb in magnitude to that degree.

Thus Dathomir!Talzin = Sidious > Talzin > Dooku.

Originally posted by Sinious
I wonder why people don't apply the same logic to Bane era.

Two words: personal bias.

Originally posted by ILS Well, the Force runs through even the air as far as I know, being a virtually limitless energy field.. the only exception I know of is machinery and the like. Talzin seems to draw power from plantlife strong with Force energy, which Dathomir has in abundance.

Again, this pretty much goes for everyone.



Hm. If that's the case, why would the Nightsisters ever want to leave Dathomir?

Not all Nightsisters are necessarily as accustomed to Dathomir as Talzin, or Talzin's just more reliant on such things because of her powers/practices. Perhaps the Nightsisters wanted to find ways to use their powers outside of Dathomir?

You have people like Ventress etc. who are capable of/trained in manipulating the Force like conventional Jedi, too. Talzin's obsession with the green Spirit Ichor and what else is probably related to Dathomir, as opposed to the likes of Ventress who can't do that stuff but aren't reliant on it either, so they can actually use the Force outside of Dathomir.

~Newg
Were that the case Force Users would lose power upon entering a capital ship and riding off into space.

No idea, though Spirit Ichor definitely seems to be more Talzin's thing than your standard Nightsister.

From what I can gather most Jedi/Sith draw power from within - unless they are on a nexus of some sort. Talzin seems to operate more by drawing on power from without. I don't think it's normal for a Force user to channel their power through the environment around them.

But the power within them comes from the power around them.

Originally posted by ILS
Well, the Force runs through even the air as far as I know, being a virtually limitless energy field.. the only exception I know of is machinery and the like. Talzin seems to draw power from plantlife strong with Force energy, which Dathomir has in abundance.

Makes her hard to gauge anywhere else. When she was in a "sterile" environment, a ship, she was unable to maintain the illusion of a few dozen nightsisters (that I recall) and couldn't heal herself of a blaster wound, much less kill the group of mercenaries she was fighting, whereas Sidious killed them easily and even threatened to kill Talzin on the spot.. whereas on Dathomir she can give Sidious a fair run for his money.

<3

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But the power within them comes from the power around them.

Not always. Does no one remember that quote from Season 6? Talzin doesn't use the force as the Jedi and the Sith do, she was born with no natural force talent. She tells Windu as much. She was using a ritual to gather force energies for herself, after which she believed she's have unchallenged power beyond that anyone else had ever seen.

I don't believe she needs Dathomir to wield her full extent, just life. Dathomir doesn't even have an abundance of life, she managed just fine on Zardossa Stix. I think she'd be just as powerful on Coruscant, Yavin, Felucia, Correllia or anywhere else. The space station (not Ship, ILS ) was a different case because there weren't even people to draw off, there were like 6 mercenaries. Even then she was capable of summoning a "dazzling" force illusion.

Originally posted by Selenial
(not Ship, ILS ) I disagree.

The stance of your point is not when the past tense is for the argument but when they don't tell us when the standards are.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But the power within them comes from the power around them. I wouldn't say so. It comes from their midichlorians, and those organisms' connection to the Force.

In fact you could say that Talzin is drawing on the midichlorians of life around her, rather than her own.Originally posted by Selenial
...she was born with no natural force talent. Where is this stated?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I wouldn't say so. It comes from their midichlorians, and those organisms' connection to the Force.

And the Force is the power around them.

Book of the Sith says something about Talzin and how the night sisters channel the Force but I don't have the book on me atm

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And the Force is the power around them. You mean it manifests in the life around them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Where is this stated?

"I am not a natural force wielder like the Jedi or Sith, I use Dark Magic to achieve my power."

I guess it's open to interpretation, but it explains the incident with Maul.

Dooku might be able to beat that version of Talzin that Mace has fought (weakened version of her, I believe). On Dathomir he would be killed, and it might be even a stomp for Talzin.
And I have no idea how strong Talzin in her prime would be on neutral ground.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Based on the fact that Dooku isn't even in the same magnitude of power as Darth Sidious, an amp anything short of oneness wouldn't have such an effect as to climb in magnitude to that degree.

Thus Dathomir!Talzin = Sidious > Talzin > Dooku. Is there some comic I haven't read which backs these claims ? In the Star Wars clone wars series I see nothing to suggest she's a Sheev equal in combat.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Is there some comic I haven't read which backs these claims ? In the Star Wars clone wars series I see nothing to suggest she's a Sheev equal in combat.

The fact that she faced Sheev one on one during the Son of Dathomir comic while weakened. Then held off the combined lightning of Dooku and Sheev for a short period of time.

She's also literally stated to be "a powerhouse that can go toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious" in the Star Wars Insider.

Yep, a comic series called Son of Dathomir.

Originally posted by Selenial
The fact that she faced Sheev one on one during the Son of Dathomir comic while weakened. Then held off the combined lightning of Dooku and Sheev for a short period of time.

She's also literally stated to be "a powerhouse that can go toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious" in the Star Wars Insider. So this comic is recognized in the new canon ?

Is it any good ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
So this comic is recognized in the new canon ?

Is it any good ?

Yeh it's recognised in the new canon. Good art, but it's kinda short IMO. Good story because it's adapted from unused clone wars storylines.

It's actually posted on a website if you want to read it without buying it. The fight in question takes place in part 4. http://viewcomic.com/star-wars-darth-maul-son-of-dathomir-001-2014/

Originally posted by Selenial
Yeh it's recognised in the new canon. Good art, but it's kinda short IMO. Good story because it's adapted from unused clone wars storylines.

It's actually posted on a website if you want to read it without buying it. The fight in question takes place in part 4. http://viewcomic.com/star-wars-darth-maul-son-of-dathomir-001-2014/ Just perished through it. She was very powerful and I hate that she had to die as she'd be pretty awesome to use in future Star Wars films. Love that Maul is still out there though and he's pretty damn formidable. Sheev also feared Talzin.

Well in terms of sabers I see the two stale mating or a Dooku victory due to her being able to stalemate windu. However I believe windu vs Dooku, Dooku would win however it would be close. So with that it could be possible that Dooku could take her in sabers.

Dookus Force powers vs Talzins Dark Magic? Dooku is defintly familiar with her magics to an extent and she is defiantly aware of his force powers to an even larger extent. Her rituals are not going to help her, however Dooku can't just overpower her either. I believe the fight on Dathomir between her and Sidious helped her more than anyone else. She is the mother of the nightsisters so it would be natural that it would help her more than anyone else. Being on neutral ground her powers would still be formidable and we have seen what Dooku is capable of when he isn't on a nexus. It's very hard to call.

All out this would be a very close match and I find it hard to pick a winner. Dooku on the other hand has a slight advantage in terms of sabers however this is more than matched by Talzins ability to 1) stalemate mace windu and 2) her dark magic. At the end of the day I'd say it's a stalemate as I can't see either conclusively taking the majority over the other.

Didn't the writers say Talzin is a powerhouse who can go toe to toe with Sidious? Talzin stomps.

"...and it is Yoda who confronts an escaping Count Dooku for a spectacular lightsaber clash, one super powerful force warrior battling another"

Kinda irrelevant, but OK.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
"...and it is Yoda who confronts an escaping Count Dooku for a spectacular lightsaber clash, one super powerful force warrior battling another"

Source?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kinda irrelevant, but OK.
But at the same time...
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Source?

If it's the same one I have, it's from the TCG.

It's from the new SW trading card game. Yoda's card

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Didn't the writers say Talzin is a powerhouse who can go toe to toe with Sidious? Talzin stomps. Yeah, Talzin clearly stomps Dooku.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Didn't the writers say Talzin is a powerhouse who can go toe to toe with Sidious?


Which writers? When? Where?


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Talzin stomps.


So you think Mace stomps Dooku as well?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which writers? When? Where?

Star Wars Insider (06/05/14):

http://i.hizliresim.com/OdvbED.png

Mother Talzin, IMO.

Originally posted by Selenial
Star Wars Insider (06/05/14):

http://i.hizliresim.com/OdvbED.png


MEH She went toe to toe with him On Dathomir in Barlow's comic.

Off Dathomir in TCW S6 she was pretty even with Windu. I guess many would argue Windu can go toe to toe with Sidious as well, so Whatever.

Also didn't Dooku go "toe to toe" with Yoda in AOTC?

Also Barlow thinks Maul would take Dooku in a fight, so he clearly doesn't have the highest opinion of Dooku.


So my point still stands that if you think Talzin (Off Dathomir) would stomp Dooku, then you would have to think Windu would stomp Dooku, which would seem odd for Lord Stark.

How is swinging wildly at Windu and then bladelocking him being "even" with him?

So.. nah, one can believe Talzin can stomp Dooku without also believing Windu would as well. Windu's clearly the better swordsman and Talzin is clearly the better Force user.

Having said that I'm not seeing non-Dathomir Talzin stomping Dooku.

Originally posted by ILS
How is swinging wildly at Windu and then bladelocking him being "even" with him?




Because the fight went on for a while, and neither was "shown" as being superior. The Bladelocking with neither opponent backing off further solidifies that neither was "shown" to look superior.

The bladelocks are a contest of strength, not skill. That, and wild swings/misses comprised a vast majority of the fight we saw. I'm really not convinced that the off-screen combat would've been different.

That it was inconclusive doesn't mean there was any impressive swordsmanship on Talzin's part. Aside from just swinging wildly at Windu and blade locking him, all she has is being completely stomped by Sidious in Dooku's body, with Sidious pointing out that she lacks his skill with a lightsaber.

You're really selling Windu short if you think that's enough to put anyone on his level.

And it also has nothing to do with who is stronger in the Force, which is what Stark was suggesting Talzin would use to stomp Dooku.

Originally posted by ILS
That it was inconclusive doesn't mean there was any impressive swordsmanship on Talzin's part.

In terms of skill? No. But her advantages in a "duel" would be her raw power.


Originally posted by ILS
Aside from just swinging wildly at Windu and blade locking him, all she has is being completely stomped by Sidious in Dooku's body, with Sidious pointing out that she lacks his skill with a lightsaber.


She didn't have her full Power in Dooku's body. But yeah that scene made it clear that she's not the most "skilled" fencer.

Originally posted by ILS
You're really selling Windu short if you think that's enough to put anyone on his level.


Not selling Windu short. I think him and Talzin are the next most Powerful PT Era combatants after Sidious and Yoda.

Originally posted by ILS
And it also has nothing to do with who is stronger in the Force, which is what Stark was suggesting Talzin would use to stomp Dooku.

Talzin doesn't use Tk or anything. She has her magical blasts which Windu dodged. Don't see why Dooku couldn't evade them just the same.

"Raw power" let Savage Opress push Anakin Skywalker back. Doesn't make them equals by necessity.



What I'm saying is, being classed as his equal with a lightsaber is reserved for the likes of Dooku, Anakin, Sidious, Yoda and a select few from other eras. Talzin hasn't been the first to have an inconclusive fight with Windu (looking at Maul, Grievous and Ventress).



She's used telekinesis in The Wrath of Darth Maul, SoD #4 and in some other scenes in TCW when she's lifting her conjurations, Maul's body and so on. She's also displayed Force levitation/flight.

Non-Dathomir Talzin wins a hard fight but Dathomir Talzin wins solidly.