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* All at their peak
* No spirit Vitiate

Setting: Jabba's palace

Who wins?

I'm thinking the team wins this one.

Yeah, the team wins. Vitiate was genuinely wary/afraid of the ancient Sith - he's not taking down two of their best at once on top of Tenebrous, a considerably skilful practitioner of the Force.

Well they're featless but if we're taking pure hype into account now, then yeah the team wins.

Tenebrous isn't featless, and Murr's pretty impressive in Legacy IIRC

The team isn't featless at all, lol.

I'd swear some people don't even know what "featless" even means with how wantonly they throw it around :hmm

Meh I wasn't talking about Murr but the other 2. What feats does Tenebrous have to suggest he isn't getting one-shot along with Hord?

Muur would feasibly give him a good fight. Adding two more is overkill.

Team

Originally posted by Selenial
Hord would feasibly give him a good fight. Adding two more is overkill.

Team

Originally posted by Sinious
Meh I wasn't talking about Murr but the other 2. What feats does Tenebrous have to suggest he isn't getting one-shot along with Hord? What feats does Vitiate have to suggest he can one-shot Hord and Tenebrous?

Originally posted by Sinious
Meh I wasn't talking about Murr but the other 2. What feats does Tenebrous have to suggest he isn't getting one-shot along with Hord?

Nobody proves negatives - it's up to you to prove the point.

Based on what does Vitiate one-shot Tenebrous and Hord, especially considering he's wary of the latter's power?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What feats does Vitiate have to suggest he can one-shot Hord and Tenebrous?
One-shotting a Dark Council?

Which he's never done in combative circumstances/without the semblance or possibility of prep.

And based on what do those Dark Council Members even remotely approach Tenebrous and Hord? Being the most powerful Sith of their time doesn't make them comparable to Tenebrous or Hord, either, who are some of the absolute top-tiers in SW history.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
One-shotting a Dark Council? I wasn't asking you. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1790400411.gif

But Moonraker is correct, he doesn't even have the right weather conditions.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nobody proves negatives - it's up to you to prove the point.

Based on what does Vitiate one-shot Tenebrous and Hord, especially considering he's wary of the latter's power?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What feats does Vitiate have to suggest he can one-shot Hord and Tenebrous?

First of all, I don't believe Vitiate can win this but if I were to insist on comparing feats and see who is superior(Which is what the majority of people do here), Vitiate would win imo.

Well, Vitiate one-shot Revan, a force user who actually has impressive tutaminis feats. So now you have to prove how Tenebrous and and Hord has superior force defenses to Revan.

Oh btw, that was Novel Vitiate and this is a more powerful and experienced version of that character.

Not to mention everything Hord has going for him lacks context so if we are to take his accomplishments and hype into account, then its only fair that we do the same with Vitiate and therefor I can easily bring up his council one-shotting feat like Legend has.

Originally posted by Sinious
First of all, I don't believe Vitiate can win this but if I were to insist on comparing feats and see who is superior(Which is what the majority of people do here), Vitiate would win imo.I don't think anyone here is doubting that Vitiate is superior to any one member of the group, but collectively the only way his winning superiority could be proven is by pretending that an absence of feats actually means something. It does not.I wouldn't say he one shot him, more forced in into a contest of raw power which obviously he could not win. With three opponents to deal with Vitiate will be realistically unable to keep up that kind of pressure.You mean nexus-Vitiate.Unless your suggesting we ignore contexts then your in the same boat as Legend i.e. addressing the following:Originally posted by SunRazer
Which he's never done in combative circumstances/without the semblance or possibility of prep.

And based on what do those Dark Council Members even remotely approach Tenebrous and Hord? Being the most powerful Sith of their time doesn't make them comparable to Tenebrous or Hord, either, who are some of the absolute top-tiers in SW history.

Tenebrous watches as Hord defeats Vitiate by himself and then Muur turns him into a Rakghoul

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't think anyone here is doubting that Vitiate is superior to any one member of the group, but collectively the only way his winning superiority could be proven is by pretending that an absence of feats actually means something. It does not.
Which is why I said team wins.

But again, this is pure assumption and people aren't this generous to other characters. For example, why does SunRazer believe that Hord and Tenebrous are top level when they have no feats to suggest that yet he puts someone like Darth Bane in low tier?
You're bringing up nexus amp in a thread where you're defending featless characters.
He is simply assuming things. The true answer is, Vitiate's Council one-shotting feat lacks context and the same could be said for Hord's accomplishments.

I can easily ask the same thing. Based on what do Hord and Tenebrous even remotely approach an entire Dark Council?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which he's never done in combative circumstances/without the semblance or possibility of prep.
Vitiate attacked the Dark Council that assembled and arrived on his place to assassinate him. This is combative circumstances.

Also, what kind of 'preparation' are you implying?

Originally posted by SunRazer
And based on what do those Dark Council Members even remotely approach Tenebrous and Hord? Being the most powerful Sith of their time doesn't make them comparable to Tenebrous or Hord, either, who are some of the absolute top-tiers in SW history.
Dark Council comprises of 12 Darth(s). Had Vitiate not existed, some members of the Dark Council had the potential to become Emperors.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
With three opponents to deal with Vitiate will be realistically unable to keep up that kind of pressure.
Vitiate have defeated larger Strike Teams. He would also have overwhelmed the Strike Team of Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate have defeated larger Strike Teams. He would also have overwhelmed the Strike Team of Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge.

"Scourge realised that if she had aimed at the emperor instead of the blade, she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan's. But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy."

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of you being wrong.

Originally posted by Sinious
But again, this is pure assumption and people aren't this generous to other characters. For example, why does SunRazer believe that Hord and Tenebrous are top level when they have no feats to suggest that yet he puts someone like Darth Bane in low tier?I fail to see how I should be beholden to other people's opinions.

You're also confusing assumptions with logical reasoning, you don't always need empirical evidence to prove something. Problem?
I disagree. The fact that the majority of Vitiate's feats are well documented and described, indicates that this feat is deliberately vague and therefore cannot be taken from granted or at face value. Hord's feats lack contexts simply because those contexts or rather the era itself hasn't been explored, not to imply extenuating circumstances (which never are) - the information is merely second hand.

Simply put we have no reason not to take them at face value, bar an element of embellishment on Khem Val's part, and if we do it's obvious Tulak Hord was incredibly powerful.

On the topic of Vitiate's feat however if we're to assume Chekhov's gun then the fact that it is noted to take place during a "violent tempest" indicates it was likely some kind of alter environment feat i.e. Force enhanced lightning, which would explain the flash of light.

Naturally he won't have that advantage in Jabba's Palace.
Based on what did Revan? The Hero of Tython? Tol Braga? You're assuming that Vitiate can obliterate anyone equal to and beneath the combined might of an entire Dark Council in an instant, and yet he has never since replicated this.Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate have defeated larger Strike Teams. He would also have overwhelmed the Strike Team of Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge. Because larger means intrinsically more powerful.

http://media0.giphy.com/media/sjTEF3Gtw8FOw/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I fail to see how I should be beholden to other people's opinions.

You're also confusing assumptions with logical reasoning, you don't always need empirical evidence to prove something.

I'm not. I'm not even defending Vitiate here. I'd like to think that Hord is an uber badass. The ancient Sith needs a top tier after all that hype they got.

Yeah I have a problem with double standards.

I find that an appropriate way of approaching the issue and like I said, I'm only bringing up the "featless" argument cause that's what people do when someone like Hord is put against a popular character which is why I said at first:



HoT faced an extremely weakened Vitiate and he was stomped by the full powered Vitiate prior to that confrontation. Revan himself has good hype and feats that back it up and Vitiate in a former confrontation raped his mind and assumed that he could easily take him out again. Once he realized Revan is not as weak as he had thought now, he dealt with him with a single strike. And why is Tol Braga even mentioned here?

Btw, I've in many occasions argued against Legend in this topic and always chose to disregard his council feats in other threads so the only reason I brought it was because I saw double standards.

Originally posted by Selenial
"Scourge realised that if she had aimed at the emperor instead of the blade, she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan's. But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy."

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of you being wrong.
This was an 'opportune' moment. Vitiate was utterly focused on Revan when Meetra Surik made her move from afar with a telekinetic lightsaber strike. Vitiate hadn't noticed her during this moment.

I am referring to the moment when the 3 combatants closed-in on the Emperor, and the confrontation that was to be expected during this scenario.

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

IIRC that's Scourge twisting his thoughts to make it seem justifiable.

Likewise, Revan, while in captivity, still believed the team had a chance.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I disagree. The fact that the majority of Vitiate's feats are well documented and described, indicates that this feat is deliberately vague and therefore cannot be taken from granted or at face value. Hord's feats lack contexts simply because those contexts or rather the era itself hasn't been explored, not to imply extenuating circumstances (which never are) - the information is merely second hand.

Simply put we have no reason not to take them at face value, bar an element of embellishment on Khem Val's part, and if we do it's obvious Tulak Hord was incredibly powerful.

On the topic of Vitiate's feat however if we're to assume Chekhov's gun then the fact that it is noted to take place during a "violent tempest" indicates it was likely some kind of alter environment feat i.e. Force enhanced lightning, which would explain the flash of light.
There is no such thing as "flash of light."

This is the statement:

He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This is a confrontation and as valid as any other to cite. The only difference in this case is that Vitiate utilized some other Force power or technique to overwhelm a Strike Team of such strength and size.

Good points in favor of the team