Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Battle takes place on neutral ground

Who wins

*no amps for either

Lol Ti wins.

P.S She has never been amped in any showings.

Originally posted by appletonia
Kas'im. Factor in how big we now know the Rakatan temple to be, Kas'im has one of the best feats we've ever seen performed (blocking Bane's Force Wave that collapsed the temple), and is probably the most skilled swordsman ever to boot. There probably aren't many Force Users that would be able to beat him in a fair fight.

Shaak Ti suffers a brutal death.

Shaak still wins. It's a good fight, though.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Shaak Ti suffers a brutal death.

I sincerely hope you are joking.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb6pndtYQD1qddi5do6_r1_250.gif

Could go either way.

Shaak pretty comfortably.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Could go either way.

Really Neph?

I do what I want.

Kas'im wins

Lel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lel.

One is a seasoned and extraordinary duelist who has gone toe-to-toe with one of the most powerful Force adepts of all time and attributed with some significant feats and accolades.

The other is Kas'im, who loses.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Shaak Ti suffers a brutal death.
Agreed. And honestly, I haven't seen many others else collapse giant temples. Short of Bane or Zannah, I doubt anyone can take on Kas'im.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
One is a seasoned and extraordinary duelist who has gone toe-to-toe with one of the most powerful Force adepts of all time and attributed with some significant feats and accolades.

The other is Kas'im, who loses.

I can no longer tell if you're being serious.

That does apply to both these guys. yeah.

Shaak Ti's feats?

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/selenial/blog/shaak-ti-respect-thread/105805/

By that, I meant her few best feats. I really can't be bothered to skim through that entire respect thread.

I am open to the possibility she might now be a lot better but last I checked, she was probably below Obi-Wan level and certainly below the likes of Mace and Dooku.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4616080-7169774560-KYjB6.gif

Rag-dolled palpatine. Shaak Ti, DE Luke Level confirmed.

But in all seriousness, if you want the shortest run down, just read the Kinetite section, the "Lightsaber Abilities" section and check out her "Speed Feats" section. Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes, and would give a decent overview.

Alright I had a quick look, and there's nothing there that I would say really changes my opinion of her. Bear in mind I generally don't take the CW cartoon (which she has some low showings in anyway, like getting absolutely crushed by Grievous) or TFU (especially where it concerns high end feats for everyone other than Sidious, Vader and Starkiller) seriously.

She's completely outclassed in this matchup.

Originally posted by appletonia
Alright I had a quick look, and there's nothing there that I would say really changes my opinion of her. Bear in mind I generally don't take the CW cartoon (which she has some low showings in anyway, like getting absolutely crushed by Grievous) or TFU (especially where it concerns high end feats for everyone other than Sidious, Vader and Starkiller) seriously.

She's completely outclassed in this matchup.

Ok so your argument is that all the sources she appears in are wrong.

Ok, baseless bias is baseless

The two sources that were designed to show a highly exaggerated version of what Jedi were capable of, yes.

But ok, if you want to take the CW cartoon seriously, how do you reconcile her getting thrashed multiple times by Grievous with what I presume is your rather high estimation of her?

Edit - don't take it so personally, I have no issue with you including it in her respect thread, I think it's right that you would generally include everything, and leave it up to the individual to decide on what to draw from it.

Originally posted by appletonia
The two sources that were designed to show a highly exaggerated version of what Jedi were capable of, yes.

But ok, if you want to take the CW cartoon seriously, how do you reconcile her getting thrashed multiple times by Grievous with what I presume is your rather high estimation of her?

Edit - don't take it so personally, I have no issue with you including it in her respect thread, I think it's right that you would generally include everything, and leave it up to the individual to decide on what to draw from it.

I don't need to reconcile it. He faced her once after she'd fought an endless battle which was described as "a desperate last stand", and was intensely tired and battle worn. The other fight was a tactical retreat to make sure Grievous had no chance of striking at the chancellor, she ran to save Palpatine, not herself.

And no, The Force Unleashed wasn't "designed to show a highly exaggerated version of what Jedi were capable of,". That's merely an excuse for people who don't enjoy the idea of Starkiller actually being a very powerful Force wielder. Whether I agree with how hilariously they wanked him in it or not is irrelevant, it's a source and you can't simply dismiss it because you don't like it.

No one dismisses the Hero of Tython's feats for being in the same medium, nor Nox's. You don't see anyone saying we can't use anything from SWTOR at all.

Not to mention, none of what appears in the Force Unleashed is exactly an exaggeration of Shaak Ti. They fit with her tremendous amount of accolades from numerous other sources (that you'll find in that thread), that paint her as one of the most powerful and revered Jedi in history.

And I'm not cracking jokes because you're lowballing Shaak Ti, I'm laughing because you will do anything to wank a character from the Bane era, and it's frankly hilarious.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Kas'im wins

Do you ever bother backing up what you say anymore?

Originally posted by carthage
Do you ever bother backing up what you say anymore?

It's gotten to the point where half this shit can't be backed up by the best of minds. I find it easier to just ignore that and let the big boys post

Originally posted by carthage
Do you ever bother backing up what you say anymore?
Not while I'm at work on my phone, and certainly not to someone who has trolled me as much as you have. Maybe to somebody I have at least a degree of respect for when I'm less busy.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Not while I'm at work on my phone, and certainly not to someone who has trolled me as much as you have. Maybe to somebody I have at least a degree of respect for when I'm less busy. Hmm...Originally posted by carthage
back up what you say pls

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Not while I'm at work on my phone, and certainly not to someone who has trolled me as much as you have. Maybe to somebody I have at least a degree of respect for when I'm less busy.

How about you give us a brief run down then. For example, I'm on my phone right now and I say:

Shaak Ti is faster, stronger and far more cunning than Kas'im. She has proven herself to be a far greater duelist than someone who has been trained to perfection. One may argue Kas'im is more skilled, but that is flawed. Kas'im's skill accolades come from a POD Bane, who'd never encountered a true masterful duelist before. Galen's on the other hand come from a point of view that's far more reliable, yet he was "lucky to have survived" his duel with her.

In the aspect of Force usage, she has used Tutaminis to divert Lightning attacks sent at her by Starkiller, and has dealt with him launching telekinetic debris at her mid combat. She's shown herself to be a powerful practitioner of Kinetite and is more than a match for Kas'im in the force. Most people would say she could destroy him with it rather easily

lol

Originally posted by Selenial

And I'm not cracking jokes because you're lowballing Shaak Ti, I'm laughing because you will do anything to wank a character from the Bane era, and it's frankly hilarious.

To be fair, you all basically make the DBT characters out to be chumps every time they're used in an thread so yeah.


But that aside, Shaak Ti's superior command of the Force would grant a significant edge against Kas'im.

I'd say saber's is a bit close, but how much? idk. so meh.

Shaak wins for me.

Edit: By the way, Sel. What do you make of that entry in the... Essential Chronology was it? that says Shaak and Stass were facing Grievous?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
To be fair, you all basically make the DBT characters out to be chumps every time they're used in an RT so yeah.


But that aside, Shaak Ti's superior command of the Force would grant a significant edge against Kas'im.

I'd say saber's is a bit close, but how much? idk. so meh.

Shaak wins for me.

When have I ever commented on Bane characters in Respect Threads? :mmm:

Unless you're using that acronym for something else.

I don't consider Bane to be above Yoda, and I don't think DE Sidious would get mind raped by Zannah. If that's me lowballing characters then so be it

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Edit: By the way, Sel. What do you make of that entry in the... Essential Chronology was it? that says Shaak and Stass were facing Grievous?

It's confusing. The ROTS Novel actually says the same thing, I feel like it's just a mistake on the authors part, not knowing which Jedi were actually there. I used to explain it as Kenobi's own mistake during the chaos of the battle, but **** knows ever since other sources started agreeing with it mmm

Edit: For anyone curious:

Originally posted by Selenial
When have I ever commented on Bane characters in Respect Threads? :mmm:

Unless you're using that acronym for something else.

Sorry lol, i meant thread, sleep deprivation has me loopy.



Well, i didn't mean that, but i get your point. some people rank Bane way too high others quite low etc. I wasn't making fun of you or anything. Just stating the obvious lol.

Originally posted by Selenial
I don't need to reconcile it. He faced her once after she'd fought an endless battle which was described as "a desperate last stand", and was intensely tired and battle worn. The other fight was a tactical retreat to make sure Grievous had no chance of striking at the chancellor, she ran to save Palpatine, not herself.

And no, The Force Unleashed wasn't "designed to show a highly exaggerated version of what Jedi were capable of,". That's merely an excuse for people who don't enjoy the idea of Starkiller actually being a very powerful Force wielder. Whether I agree with how hilariously they wanked him in it or not is irrelevant, it's a source and you can't simply dismiss it because you don't like it.

No one dismisses the Hero of Tython's feats for being in the same medium, nor Nox's. You don't see anyone saying we can't use anything from SWTOR at all.

Not to mention, none of what appears in the Force Unleashed is exactly an exaggeration of Shaak Ti. They fit with her tremendous amount of accolades from numerous other sources (that you'll find in that thread), that paint her as one of the most powerful and revered Jedi in history.

And I'm not cracking jokes because you're lowballing Shaak Ti, I'm laughing because you will do anything to wank a character from the Bane era, and it's frankly hilarious.

c__EdPiU0No

You can try to blame the first fight entirely on exhaustion, but going by visual evidence, there isn't much to distinguish the physicality with which she fights during that fight, and how she fights later in the series. There certainly isn't much that would suggest any of the Jedi were overtly affected in a physical capacity in the fight itself - we see the usual acrobatics and applications of TK, and no real signs of exhaustion.

And the way Ki-Adi-Mundi phrases it (1:15:00), the exhaustion didn't seem to be a hugely determining factor, given the manner in which he expresses it as more of an afterthought.

Both of which would indicate that while exhaustion surely was a factor, it wasn't a large enough one where you can completely dismiss the fact that she got utterly dominated by Grievous in the fight, while outnumbering him. A more accurate interpretation, and one that fits in place better with the source material, is that she was exhausted, obviously diminished to an extent, but being a Jedi, able to tap into extra reserves of energy and continue fighting with some high degree of physicality, and was simply not good enough to be competitive.

You can also use the other Jedi as a reference point, and she certainly didn't do much to seperate herself from the others, who were similarly exhausted.

And I was referring to the incident at 2:10:35, where prior to this, she had showed impressive physicality in her fight against the MagnaGuards (you even included some speed feats from that fight in her respect thread) and seemed to be able to fight in adequate physical condition, rushes in to attack Grievous and gets brushed aside in one attack.

The general message seems to be that she's simply nowhere near powerful enough to compete with him in physical combat.

http://www.gamespot.com/videos/star-wars-the-force-unleashed-postmortem-interview/2300-6197689/

At around 2 minutes into the video, you have Hayden Blackman, the executive producer of the game, talking about how they wanted to reimagine elements of Star Wars and in turn demonstrate an "amped up" version of what the Force is capable of, what the very title of the game is in reference to. Nothing specifically about Starkiller.

I wouldn't dismiss the Hero of Tython's feats for being in the same medium, because I'm not making any statements about the medium itself, but specifically The Force Unleashed.

I'm sure you've dug up a tonne of quotes that are highly complimentary to her, but substantiate what being "one of the most powerful and revered Jedi in history" actually means, please (and provide the exact quotes).

I have a very accurate assessment of Kas'im's standing - his skill with a lightsaber has been documented to greater heights than that of anybody else we've ever encountered, he performed very admirably against Bane, the Sith'ari and arguably already one of the most powerful Sith ever, he has one of the best feats of Force defence we've ever seen in blocking Bane's attack, and at the time of his death, you could make a very strong argument for him being the most dangerous close range combatant in the galaxy. He also represents one of the best users of a very effective style - lightsaber specialist with incredible Force defence, that stylistically makes him a very tough matchup for a lot of people. Shaak Ti, was nowhere near one of the top tier of her era based on the evidence, and is thoroughly outclassed.

Originally posted by Selenial
It's confusing. The ROTS Novel actually says the same thing, I feel like it's just a mistake on the authors part, not knowing which Jedi were actually there. I used to explain it as Kenobi's own mistake during the chaos of the battle, but **** knows ever since other sources started agreeing with it mmm

Edit: For anyone curious:

Thanks for the quote. I've always wondered about that, there's also a quote in one of the databanks for the jedi that died to Grievous in OCW about Ti dueling Grievous, which directly contradicts the show itself. I brought it up to dmb but he shot me down pretty quick a while back lol.

Edit: Sweet Mary Eunice Appletonia! that's a giant wall lol

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I brought it up to dmb but he shot me down pretty quick a while back lol. Does DMB wear the pants in your organization?

What does this organization actually do?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What does this organization actually do?

We're like the shasta brand of anonymous tbh

Originally posted by ILS
Does DMB wear the pants in your organization?


Nah, i meant as in he basically made sense as to why the quote wouldn't be fit to be used in a debate so people would have shut me down quick. lol poor wording on my part.

Originally posted by Selenial
One may argue Kas'im is more skilled, but that is flawed. Kas'im's skill accolades come from a POD Bane, who'd never encountered a true masterful duelist before.

This is a common misconception. The passage that describes Kas'im's skill with a lightsaber details information that Bane didn't know about, such as the extent to which Kas'im had mastered Jar'Kai (given that Jar'Kai is what gave Kas'im the edge against Bane, something Bane didn't even know he could wield at all, and that the passage then goes on to attribute the manner in which Kas'im mastered everything and then spent decades perfecting his skills as the reason why Bane couldn't beat him).

Selenial - your thoughts on the size of the Rakatan temple please?

Originally posted by Selenial
How about you give us a brief run down then. For example, I'm on my phone right now and I say:

Shaak Ti is faster, stronger and far more cunning than Kas'im. She has proven herself to be a far greater duelist than someone who has been trained to perfection. One may argue Kas'im is more skilled, but that is flawed. Kas'im's skill accolades come from a POD Bane, who'd never encountered a true masterful duelist before. Galen's on the other hand come from a point of view that's far more reliable, yet he was "lucky to have survived" his duel with her.

In the aspect of Force usage, she has used Tutaminis to divert Lightning attacks sent at her by Starkiller, and has dealt with him launching telekinetic debris at her mid combat. She's shown herself to be a powerful practitioner of Kinetite and is more than a match for Kas'im in the force. Most people would say she could destroy him with it rather easily
Because I actually respect you I'll reply at some time at which I am not at work.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Because I actually respect you I'll reply at some time at which I am not at work.

Thank you, I genuinely can't take Appletonia seriously when he says Kas'im's the best duelist in the history of Star Wars. Perhaps I'll appreciate your arguments more.

Originally posted by Selenial


She comes across as being more measured and tentative, and she has less room to move around, but she doesn't come across as slower, and the Jedi in general aren't depicted as being severely physically hindered to the extent that you might otherwise like to claim.

She's defeated by Grievous using all of attributes he brings to the table (speed, strength, skill etc.) period, and it could be that crushing the head of a MagnaGuard is simply far less impressive than competing with Grievous, from a strength standpoint regardless.

The general picture is not of a group of Jedi that were so physically hindered, that their superior skill couldn't have possibly had a way to shine through. Notice how Obi-Wan was nowhere near as fast as Grievous but was still able to rely on skill and economy and movement to combat him. Obviously Obi-Wan was probably better suited to fighting Grievous, but the point I'm making is that regardless of being physically disadvantaged, you would expect a high level swordsman to be able to put up a much better fight.



The moment I'm primarily referring to is when Grievous's attention is entirely fixed on her and he proceeds to overwhelm her pretty quickly and easily.



Ki-Adi dueled him alone for at least as long, and possibly far longer.



She wasn't able to match him, bringing all of his attributes to the table. Just because it looks like his strength and speed are the main factors, it doesn't mean he wasn't also fighting skillfully, and a swordsman is capable of combating superior speed and strength with superior skill as well, she just simply couldn't. It wasn't this simple contest of his strength and speed against her strength and speed like you keep on trying to make out.



Where?



Which doesn't necessarily require as much strength as being able to match Grievous's strength.



Or, his overall level of ability with a lightsaber was simply too much for her overall level of ability with a lightsaber, while in a diminished state of course (that by all available evidence wasn't that diminished).



Yet she was still performing some of her very best physical feats mere moments before confronting Grievous, when she had just as much reason to be tired (minus a minimal amount of time). Are you arguing that the moment of exhaustion conveniently happened just before she went to confront him?

Sure, she's emotionally wounded, but a jedi doesn't draw their energy from their physiology to the point that being emotionally wounded would have any real impact on her physical ability. A Jedi's speed/other physical abilities draw from their Force reserves, and generally haven't been portrayed as requiring any real focus to access, and is more of a function of muscle memory.

She simply rushes him, and doesn't have the strength/foresight/ability to avoid getting easily brushed aside.



Really?

The book and comic were based off of the game and its concept; the game was the primary source and what came first in the conceptual phase. And everything about the game's depiction of the Force, whether it was explored through cutscenes or gameplay, was based off of that concept. You're being blatantly dishonest at this point.



All unsubstantiated, and hardly painting a picture of one of the very best ever, like you claimed.

Shaak ti

Even accepting TFU for a moment, how powerful exactly was Starkiller around the time he fought her?

Not sure why people are dismissing Bane's feat of destroying the Rakatan temple, ad Kas'im's feat of defending against a portion of the attack in any event, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bane and Starkiller were possibly around the same level at the time of those fights.

Originally posted by appletonia
She comes across as being more measured and tentative, and she has less room to move around, but she doesn't come across as slower, and the Jedi in general aren't depicted as being severely physically hindered to the extent that you might otherwise like to claim.

She's defeated by Grievous using all of attributes he brings to the table (speed, strength, skill etc.) period, and it could be that crushing the head of a MagnaGuard is simply far less impressive than competing with Grievous, from a strength standpoint regardless.

The general picture is not of a group of Jedi that were so physically hindered, that their superior skill couldn't have possibly had a way to shine through. Notice how Obi-Wan was nowhere near as fast as Grievous but was still able to rely on skill and economy and movement to combat him. Obviously Obi-Wan was probably better suited to fighting Grievous, but the point I'm making is that regardless of being physically disadvantaged, you would expect a high level swordsman to be able to put up a much better fight.

The general picture? Rofl.

- Ki Adi Mundi's robes are torn apart.
- Shaak Ti is meditating to conserve strength when he walks in
- K'kruhk is panting like an asthmatic smoker who's just ran a marathon.
- Aayla is in the corner clutching her arm in pain
- Aayla and Shaak Ti's robes are also in tatters.

All of the above indicate they've been fighting for a long time, and are all exhausted.


Again, tiredness. If she is able to perfectly match his skill or better, but is severely outmatched in strength and speed, she can't do anything.

"If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise and intimidation on your side. If any of these things are lacking, it would be best to retreat. You must break them before you engage them
- Count Dooku, to Grievous.

And yes, Shaak Ti is one of the best of the Jedi, as you've just been shown.



Compare these two instances.

http://i.gyazo.com/aae75db055cba93a90369c256541bae2.gif

and

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111233150/4616390-9915425756-vZ028.gif

And note how much more conservative Shaak Ti is with her energy in the first engagement. Yet more proof she was tired from the battle.



When the way he defeats her is overpowering her so much she flies into rubble and shatters it? Yeh no.




"Grievous knows he will be facing many Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars and trains his MagnaGuards in dueling techniques that allow them to gang up on a single target. Backup systems allow MagnaGuards to keep fighting even after they lose a limb. While Grievous doesn't expect his MagnaGuards to be able to kill every Jedi who challenges them, he knows his bodyguard screen will exhaust most attackers and leave them vulnerable to a finishing blow delivered by the General himself."

- Ultimate Star Wars, p242.

Please educate yourself on lore before bothering to log into this website again, it might help you just a little.

It is quite obvious that she expended the last of her energy in an attempt to catch up with them. Please stop ignoring canon information ("you are tired Jedi" in an attempt to belittle a character, simply because you're embarrassed that Kas'im can't stand up to her.




"Impressive reflexes," said Master Satele, to all appearances unconcerned by the possibility that Ax might have cut her in half. She hadn't even activated her own lightsaber. "Your peripheral vision could use some work, though. I've been on your tail ever since you landed."

^^ That quote right there somehow has more relevance to this debate than your pathetic attempts to get rid of a source you dislike. That's quite an impressive feat on your end, you really are the definition of "The bottom of the barrel" when it comes to debating, aren't you.

Not once have you come up with a single argument for Kas'im, because you can't, you're literally just trying to make her seem like a pathetic excuse for a Jedi. You're doing a terrible job of it at that.



Again with the "your sourcebooks are wrong my opinion is superior to them so there" bull shit. It's genuinely hilarious at this stage mmm

Might start profiling this actually.

Oh and Side Note, being up there with the likes of Mace Windu, Yoda, Dooku and Anakin Skywalker is the same as being one of the best in history.

Originally posted by Selenial
The general picture? Rofl.

- Ki Adi Mundi's robes are torn apart.
- Shaak Ti is meditating to conserve strength when he walks in
- K'kruhk is panting like an asthmatic smoker who's just ran a marathon.
- Aayla is in the corner clutching her arm in pain
- Aayla and Shaak Ti's robes are also in tatters.

All of the above indicate they've been fighting for a long time, and are all exhausted.

That's when they're not in a battle state and will show signs of exhaustion. When fighting, they didn't come across as overly hampered.



The very best Jedi usually don't break, and not really sure the relevance of this anyhow.



Doesn't seem to be a huge disparity, she seems more free to mvoe around against the MagnaGaurds then she is with Grievous. As I said she was more tentative than anything else.



That final attack didn't simply happen independently of the swordplay that preceeded it.



The quote in context would have been nice.

That might have been a general strategy employed by Grievous with the MagnaGuards, but it doesn't mean that was the strategy being used in this instance (they were primarily a distraction - Palpatine was the target, not Shaak Ti), or that it worked.

Grievous likes to taunt and demoralize people in general, and I'm not denying she would have been tired, I'm questioning the extent.



Thanks for the spoiler for a book I'm currently reading!



I already have, you're just ignoring the implications of his ability to protect himself from Bane's attack, and the heights he took his mastery of the lightsaber to, or the fact that by his death there probably wasn't a single person in the Galaxy that could defeat him in a fair fight.



So you're not going to substantiate them?



You still haven't substantiated what being one of the best in history actually means, and that she's on that level is entirely unproven.

@appletonia While I don't agree with most of what you post, I respect the fact that you have some common decency and I would like to thank you for not compulsively spamming disturbing ass pictures all over the forum and making a complete ass of yourself dozens upon dozens of times just for the attention.

Originally posted by Selenial
And no, The Force Unleashed wasn't "designed to show a highly exaggerated version of what Jedi were capable of,". That's merely an excuse for people who don't enjoy the idea of Starkiller actually being a very powerful Force wielder. Whether I agree with how hilariously they wanked him in it or not is irrelevant, it's a source and you can't simply dismiss it because you don't like it.

I don't understand how anyone can type out the name of that game and still make this argument afterwards with sincerity. It just baffles me.

It isn't merely an excuse, it's a fact. You calling it such is merely a dismissal of a viewpoint you dislike, without accounting for the truth of the matter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't understand how anyone can type out the name of that game and still make this argument afterwards with sincerity. It just baffles me.

Firstly, novel.

Secondly, nothing about it stretches any canon whatsoever. Vader and Palpatine do in that book exactly what they could do in Legends. The only argument for the book being overblown is again, people disliking Galen Marek.

The game is the primary material.

It. Is. Literally. Called. The. Force. Unleashed. How much clearer than that does it need to be? The game's entire concept is based on amping up the Force to absurd heights. That is literally what the entire ****ing franchise is about.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The game is the primary material.

It. Is. Literally. Called. The. Force. Unleashed. How much clearer than that does it need to be? The game's entire concept is based on amping up the Force to absurd heights. That is literally what the entire ****ing franchise is about.

And how can you categorically say the way they do that isn't just focusing on the most powerful characters of the era? Showing the player or reader what the Force does in the hands of masters? Like what does the game really actually show that occurs nowhere else in the mythos

If SWTOR only showed Darth Marr, Barsen'thor, the Hero of Tython, Vitiate, Malgus, Satele and Revan, would you be tooting the same horn?

Why am I even asking that question, of course you wouldn't.

Because as you already pointed out, those character's already existed prior to TFU. So that doesn't fit with the concept of showing the Force in a new light. If the game were merely showing the characters at the level that already existed then it wouldn't be amping anything up. That's an utterly tone-deaf, willfully ignorant interpretation.

Of course not, because literally the entire point of Swtor isn't to exaggerate the Force to levels that dampen teenage boys pants. Swtor didn't release their first trailer entirely as a guy pulling a Star Destroyer to the ground to get the point across about what the game's concept was. It doesn't have the lead developer gush about exaggerating the Force. It isn't literally called the Force Unleashed.

Not sure why Hayden Blackman's opinion on the subject matters to Neph, who has made it abundantly clear that author intent means nothing when he dislikes itdoesn't matter at all.

Anyway, Ti beats dat ass, frankly.

Not sure why Tempest's opinion on the subject matters to anyone, who has made it abundantly clear that he's nothing more than a salty old bottom-ass b*tch.

http://gifatron.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/rdjnod.gif

More like:

http://pic.epicfail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/iron-man-fail.jpg

Tempest.img

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because as you already pointed out, those character's already existed prior to TFU. So that doesn't fit with the concept of showing the Force in a new light. If the game were merely showing the characters at the level that already existed then it wouldn't be amping anything up. That's an utterly tone-deaf, willfully ignorant interpretation.

Of course not, because literally the entire point of Swtor isn't to exaggerate the Force to levels that dampen teenage boys pants. Swtor didn't release their first trailer entirely as a guy pulling a Star Destroyer to the ground to get the point across about what the game's concept was. It doesn't have the lead developer gush about exaggerating the Force. It isn't literally called the Force Unleashed.

So if characters who existed before The Force Unleashed are somehow exempt from this rule, then why isn't Shaak Ti? Either way, the argument that someone wanting to show the force at it's maximum potential invalidates the feat is ludicrous. Why does it matter if the writer wanted to show the Force properly unleashed in a powerful protagonist? That's his choice, it doesn't make the character more less powerful than he is actually shown in the game.

So somehow SWTOR is less exaggeration when it has a supposedly immortal Sith Emperor running around the stage eating planets? Please.

Another example of course is Knights of the Old Republic 2. Chris Avellone thought the ancient Sith could move planets with their abilities and believed them infinitely more powerful than actual sourcebooks would suggest. Just because he believes that doesn't mean "His view of canon is distorted so everyone in KOTOR 2 must be weaker than it's shown in that game."

And to reiterate since apparently you must be told things more than three times, the Novel isn't anywhere near as ridiculous as the game. Not even close. The game is "hyping up the force" or making it out at "absurd" levels in the mechanics where Galen can one shot an AT-ST. In the cutscenes the power levels are normal.

At the end of the day, everything in that game that we see as Canon went through the Lucasarts Story Board, and even George Lucas himself. You cannot call it irrelevant because you do not like it. ****ing grow a pair and deal with it.

Originally posted by Selenial
and even George Lucas himself.
lolwut. I doubt Lucas knew anything more than the overall plot of that game.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
lolwut. I doubt Lucas knew anything more than the overall plot of that game.

The guy in the interview literally says he went through Lucas mmm

Originally posted by Selenial
The guy in the interview literally says he went through Lucas mmm
That doesn't contradict what I said at all...

The notion Lucas was a major player in developing the game is lolworthy.

He wasn't even notified that Luke Skywalker had a ****ing son.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That doesn't contradict what I said at all...

The notion Lucas was a major player in developing the game is lolworthy.

He wasn't even notified that Luke Skywalker had a ****ing son.

And who ever said he had a major role in developing it?

He merely OK'd it, and I'm guessing this ridiculous "hyping up the force" nonsense was in their pitch

Originally posted by Selenial
And who ever said he had a major role in developing it?

He merely OK'd it, and I'm guessing this ridiculous "hyping up the force" nonsense was in their pitch

Pretty terrible assumption. They wouldn't pitch something that would put up a red flag for him to veto the idea.

"Oh and we are going to have him throwing Star Destroyers, beating Darth Vader, and maybe the Emperor too!"

...yeah no.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Pretty terrible assumption. They wouldn't pitch something that would put up a red flag for him to veto the idea.

"Oh and we are going to have him throwing Star Destroyers, beating Darth Vader, and maybe the Emperor too!"

...yeah no.

So what you're saying is the game developers lied to Lucas, lied to his story board, covered it up until the Game released and by that point he couldn't do anything about it.

Then they somehow managed to get a second game with the guy.

And my assumption is terrible...

k

Originally posted by Selenial
So what you're saying is the game developers lied to Lucas, lied to his story board, covered it up until the Game released and by that point he couldn't do anything about it.

Then they somehow managed to get a second game with the guy.

And my assumption is terrible...

k

It's not much of a lie as it is not outlining the entire premise of the game.

What, you expect every video game / novelization they give to Lucas is a complete read through of the plot?

And you call Neph crazy...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's not much of a lie as it is not outlining the entire premise of the game.

What, you expect every video game / novelization they give to Lucas is a complete read through of the plot?

And you call Neph crazy...

Rofl, again asking where I said Lucas had anywhere near that level of envolvment. The fact of the matter is the general storyline was put passed him and he accepted.

He still has a dedicated storyboard developed to sort that sort of thing. At the very least Chee and his team were aware of it.

Originally posted by Selenial
Rofl, again asking where I said Lucas had anywhere near that level of envolvment. The fact of the matter is the general storyline was put passed him and he accepted.

Well you threw his name around as if it mattered in the grand scene of things. It obviously doesn't - and I hate when people try to win a point by inserting "Lucas" into their argument.

Originally posted by Selenial
He still has a dedicated storyboard developed to sort that sort of thing. At the very least Chee and his team were aware of it.
Nothing of this has anything to do with you mentioning Lucas. mmm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well you threw his name around as if it mattered in the grand scene of things. It obviously doesn't - and I hate when people try to win a point by inserting "Lucas" into their argument.


Nothing of this has anything to do with you mentioning Lucas. mmm

So basically you're conceding? Because none of what I said was actually incorrect, you just assumed I was making an argument that I was not, and looked the fool because of it.

How is that a concession, lmfao? I specifically quoted:



Intentionally leaving out stuff in regards to the storyboard team. It's not quite a victory when there was never a battle to be fought in the first place, my dear.

You have no rebuttal suggesting he was informed into the plot in anyway that makes it relevant to your argument against Neph, and rather can only confirm "the general storyline" - if even that much.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How is that a concession, lmfao? I specifically quoted:



Intentionally leaving out stuff in regards to the storyboard team. It's not quite a victory when there was never a battle to be fought in the first place, my dear.

You have no rebuttal suggesting he was informed into the plot in anyway that makes it relevant to your argument against Neph, and rather can only confirm "the general storyline" - if even that much.

"So the next step with that was really taking it to George Lucas, because again we were re-imagining something about Star Wars in a very different way, and something key to Star Wars, "the force". So we met with George and showed him that preview video, and he said that would make a great game go make that game."

So like, now's the part where you concede? mmm

Originally posted by Selenial
So if characters who existed before The Force Unleashed are somehow exempt from this rule, then why isn't Shaak Ti? Either way, the argument that someone wanting to show the force at it's maximum potential invalidates the feat is ludicrous. Why does it matter if the writer wanted to show the Force properly unleashed in a powerful protagonist? That's his choice, it doesn't make the character more less powerful than he is actually shown in the game.

So somehow SWTOR is less exaggeration when it has a supposedly immortal Sith Emperor running around the stage eating planets? Please.

Another example of course is Knights of the Old Republic 2. Chris Avellone thought the ancient Sith could move planets with their abilities and believed them infinitely more powerful than actual sourcebooks would suggest. Just because he believes that doesn't mean "His view of canon is distorted so everyone in KOTOR 2 must be weaker than it's shown in that game."

And to reiterate since apparently you must be told things more than three times, the Novel isn't anywhere near as ridiculous as the game. Not even close. The game is "hyping up the force" or making it out at "absurd" levels in the mechanics where Galen can one shot an AT-ST. In the cutscenes the power levels are normal.

At the end of the day, everything in that game that we see as Canon went through the Lucasarts Story Board, and even George Lucas himself. You cannot call it irrelevant because you do not like it. ****ing grow a pair and deal with it.

I didn't say they were exempt. They (Vader and Sidious) do, however, not actually do anything that different from their other depictions. Mareks feats eclipse theirs by several orders of magnitude, which makes it more absurd when he directly interacts with them. But anyway, irrelevant. They aren't exempt and neither is Shaak Ti. My actual point was that just focusing on powerful characters doesn't fit with the outlined concept of the game and isn't a valid interpretation.

Being powerful isn't a case for exaggeration. Sidious destroying fleets has nothing indicating it's exaggerated and neither does Vitiates feats. With the Force Unleashed though, there is clearly evident evidence for exaggeration. Pointedly, the title itself. Frankly I find it absurd that we can even have this discussion considering how in your face it all is.

If Avellone had managed to get that view solidified in canon then it would be so, until something indicated that it wasn't aligned with the reality of the situation. As it is, Avellone didn't manage that and the Ancient Sith enjoy more conservative levels of ability.

That's completely true. The novel is much more ridiculous than the game. Makes the latter look down-right tame by comparison. I ****ing WISH it was just about Galen Marek one-shotting AT-ST's. In the novel he one-shots an AT-AT! The guy who wrote those two books clearly did so with one hand.

And I have never called it irrelevant. If I did, then I wouldn't be calling this thread a tie, would I? I take the events and put them in context with the rest of the EU. Those people ok-ing the game (and I agree with Ant that I really doubt LUcas paid much attention) don't negate the fact that's it's an exaggerated version of events. Which they signed off on, probably knowing that fact. This doesn't make them false version of events or anything. I still take Marek as a massively powerful Force user as is clearly true. I just put on my skeptical cap about him destroying Skyhooks, disintegrating corvettes and creating hurricanes made up of thousands of battle droids.

"Re-imagining the Force" =/= bringing down Star Destroyers and ragdolling Darth Vader, lmfao.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say they were exempt. They (Vader and Sidious) do, however, not actually do anything that different from their other depictions. Mareks feats eclipse theirs by several orders of magnitude, which makes it more absurd when he directly interacts with them. But anyway, irrelevant. They aren't exempt and neither is Shaak Ti. My actual point was that just focusing on powerful characters doesn't fit with the outlined concept of the game and isn't a valid interpretation.

Being powerful isn't a case for exaggeration. Sidious destroying fleets has nothing indicating it's exaggerated and neither does Vitiates feats. With the Force Unleashed though, there is clearly evident evidence for exaggeration. Pointedly, the title itself. Frankly I find it absurd that we can even have this discussion considering how in your face it all is.

If Avellone had managed to get that view solidified in canon then it would be so, until something indicated that it wasn't aligned with the reality of the situation. As it is, Avellone didn't manage that and the Ancient Sith enjoy more conservative levels of ability.

That's completely true. The novel is much more ridiculous than the game. Makes the latter look down-right tame by comparison. I ****ing WISH it was just about Galen Marek one-shotting AT-ST's. In the novel he one-shots an AT-AT! The guy who wrote those two books clearly did so with one hand.

And I have never called it irrelevant. If I did, then I wouldn't be calling this thread a tie, would I? I take the events and put them in context with the rest of the EU. Those people ok-ing the game don't negate the fact that's it's an exaggerated version of events. This doesn't make them false version of events or anything. I still take Marek as a massively powerful Force user as is clearly true.

I'm sorry, this post entirely boiled down to "The game is an exaggeration because the title is shit."

Ok. How amazingly in depth and convincing that is.

Galen's feats don't eclipse theirs at all when you actually look at them. He didn't disintegrate a ship in the game like many people think (when charging that gun). He didn't TK a Star Destroyer, he guided it's descent.

I'm still seeing no definitive reason to disregard this. It's canon, learn to deal with it.

Even if you have to deal with it on a character-by-character, case by case basis, what has Shaak Ti done in The Force Unleashed that's so exaggerated it can't be counted?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Re-imagining the Force" =/= bringing down Star Destroyers and ragdolling Darth Vader, lmfao.

Incorrect. In the same interview he defines the "Re-imagining the Force" as:

"The Force obviously amped up, and out of control, and totally over the top."

Originally posted by Selenial
"The Force obviously amped up, and out of control, and totally over the top."
Originally posted by Selenial
"The Force obviously amped up, and out of control, and totally over the top."
Originally posted by Selenial
"The Force obviously amped up, and out of control, and totally over the top."
Originally posted by Selenial
"The Force obviously amped up, and out of control, and totally over the top."
Originally posted by Selenial
"The Force obviously amped up, and out of control, and totally over the top."
You just defeated yourself there, Sel.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


#StillDoesn'tMakeItNotCanon

#EntirelyChangingTheGoalPosts

#WorthlessExcuseForASon

It proves it's exaggerated, and shouldn't be taken as face value.

The story is canon, but we must consider that, since the Force is amped, that we should lower all feats to a more appropriate playing field.

So like, instead of Ti dominating a world, it's more like... probably not a world. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2295264996.png


I'll sacrifice a battle to win the war.

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm sorry, this post entirely boiled down to "The game is an exaggeration because the title is shit."

Ok. How amazingly in depth and convincing that is.

Galen's feats don't eclipse theirs at all when you actually look at them. He didn't disintegrate a ship in the game like many people think (when charging that gun). He didn't TK a Star Destroyer, he guided it's descent.

I'm still seeing no definitive reason to disregard this. It's canon, learn to deal with it.

Even if you have to deal with it on a character-by-character, case by case basis, what has Shaak Ti done in The Force Unleashed that's so exaggerated it can't be counted?

The title isn't shit, it's just highly indicative of the nature of the game. My argument isn't deep, because the concept is entirely on the surface and having a legitimate discussion about this is like debating about whether Pirates of the Caribbean was about pirates. Gee, I think it just might be!

You're thinking of a different thing. I'm talking about when he rides the corvette through the atmosphere, tanking rain-drops hitting him with the force of concussion bombs and heat like the inside of a star and then smashes the corvette into a million pieces and then the writer got wankers cramp.

No, learn to deal with me not dealing with it.

Well the main thing in TFU is everyone's level relative to Marek. That's the whole crux of the argument isn't it? That Shaak Ti is so good because she was beating a character as powerful as Marek?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It proves it's exaggerated, and shouldn't be taken as face value.

The story is canon, but we must consider that, since the Force is amped, that we should lower all feats to a more appropriate playing field.

So like, instead of Ti dominating a world, it's more like... probably not a world. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2295264996.png


I'll sacrifice a battle to win the war.

No it doesn't, since he was talking about gameplay:

"We were really looking at ways we could harness the next gen systems to change Gameplay dramtically"

Keep trying though <3

Originally posted by Selenial
No it doesn't, since he was talking about gameplay:

"We were really looking at ways we could harness the next gen systems to change Gameplay dramtically"

Keep trying though <3

Cutscenes are gameplay - especially those in TFU in which you even sometimes have to interact with them via slamming buttons on your controller.

Keep denying though

In addition to Ant's highlight:

Originally posted by Selenial
Incorrect. In the same interview he defines the "Re-imagining the Force" as:

"The Force obviously amped up, and out of control, and totally over the top."

aka exaggerated.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The title isn't shit, it's just highly indicative of the nature of the game. My argument isn't deep, because the concept is entirely on the surface and having a legitimate discussion about this is like debating about whether Pirates of the Caribbean was about pirates. Gee, I think it just might be!

You're thinking of a different thing. I'm talking about when he rides the corvette through the atmosphere, tanking rain-drops hitting him with the force of concussion bombs and heat like the inside of a star and then smashes the corvette into a million pieces and then the writer got wankers cramp.

No, learn to deal with me not dealing with it.

Well the main thing in TFU is everyone's level relative to Marek. That's the whole crux of the argument isn't it? That Shaak Ti is so good because she was beating a character as powerful as Marek?

So you're thinking of The Force Unleashed 2, which uses an entirely different character with entirely different power levels?

Not that said feat is better than Sidious or Caedus like you tried to say it was.

No, actually. But that's besides the point really. By your logic, Galen matched Vader in that game. Since that game is an exaggeration, Vader must be weaker than the game indicated him to be. So Vader's brought down in the pecking order because of an appearance in a game where everyone's exaggerated

He totally got beat by a Force User that's really really exaggerated and not powerful, so Vader must be so shit!

Except no. Again, your theory that Marek's best feats must be disregarded because of the title of the game is hilarious and retarded at best. You cannot say that the title being "The Force Unleashed" means he's exaggerated, it merely means that he is a very powerful force user.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Cutscenes are gameplay - especially those in TFU in which you even sometimes have to interact with them via slamming buttons on your controller.

Keep denying though

Those are called live action sequences IIRC, not cutscenes.

https://youtu.be/ki16YJPZ1GQ?t=3m46s

That is a cutscene ^^

Edit: And cutscenes aren't gameplay, that's retarded.

Originally posted by Selenial
Those are called live action sequences IIRC, not cutscenes.

https://youtu.be/ki16YJPZ1GQ?t=3m46s

That is a cutscene ^^

Pretty sure QTE is the term you're looking for. Never heard those sequences described as 'live action sequences', provided we're referring to the moments in game when Galen 'finishes' his opponents.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Pretty sure QTE is the term you're looking for. Never heard those sequences described as 'live action sequences', provided we're referring to the moments in game when Galen 'finishes' his opponents.

Yep, Quick Time Event.

Mah bad. Entirely confused there.

Originally posted by Selenial
Yep, Quick Time Event.

Mah bad. Entirely confused there.

No worries.

Originally posted by Selenial
So you're thinking of The Force Unleashed 2, which uses an entirely different character with entirely different power levels?

Not that said feat is better than Sidious or Caedus like you tried to say it was.

No, actually. But that's besides the point really. By your logic, Galen matched Vader in that game. Since that game is an exaggeration, Vader must be weaker than the game indicated him to be. So Vader's brought down in the pecking order because of an appearance in a game where everyone's exaggerated

He totally got beat by a Force User that's really really exaggerated and not powerful, so Vader must be so shit!

Except no. Again, your theory that Marek's best feats must be disregarded because of the title of the game is hilarious and retarded at best. You cannot say that the title being "The Force Unleashed" means he's exaggerated, it merely means that he is a very powerful force user.

Well he is literally a clone so whatever and his power level is basically the same, established quite clearly in the two Vader fights. Marek has tons of incrediballs feats in the first book like blasting thousands of droids hard enough to create an artificial hurricane that stretched over the horizon, powering a capital ship with lightning, destroying the Skyhook (that reached into orbit) with TK, one-shotting an AT-AT with lightning + killing it's crew, buckling the star destroyers hull, casually considering obliterating the Jedi Temple replica with one force push and other thing's I'm sure I'm forgetting. Dude still struggles with the likes of Kota, Paratus, Shaak Ti and a random Shadow Guard and tbh Vader has nothing approaching that crap.

Debatable, but irrelevant.

Absurd troll logic. Vader's level is established in numerous other works. Marek should be brought down to (slightly above) his level in those. It's the logical thing.

Considering the only thing I wanted to do was point out the absurdity of claiming a game that's called The Force Unleashed isn't about the Force being unleashed and that's the sole thing I interjected to do, I don't particularly care what you think about my "argument".

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he is literally a clone so whatever and his power level is basically the same, established quite clearly in the two Vader fights. Marek has tons of incrediballs feats in the first book like blasting thousands of droids hard enough to create an artificial hurricane that stretched over the horizon, powering a capital ship with lightning, destroying the Skyhook (that reached into orbit) with TK, one-shotting an AT-AT with lightning + killing it's crew, buckling the star destroyers hull, casually considering obliterating the Jedi Temple replica with one force push and other thing's I'm sure I'm forgetting. Dude still struggles with the likes of Kota, Paratus, Shaak Ti and a random Shadow Guard and tbh Vader has nothing approaching that crap.


I'm not really interested in what ever little spat is going on between you and Sel, but this caught my eye. Specifically the last sentence.

I feel like there's an easy way to explain that, but I'll pose a question: Why do you think that is? Again, @ the last sentence.

Because he's not actually as powerful as he's made out to be. He is certainly one of the strongest Force Users ever, but only in the same vein as Vader, Malgus, Revan etc. And as a duelist he is again, slightly above pre-ANH Vader's level.

With his feats he could casually throttle Dooku and Maul. More logically he'd struggle mightily against them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he is literally a clone so whatever and his power level is basically the same, established quite clearly in the two Vader fights. Marek has tons of incrediballs feats in the first book like blasting thousands of droids hard enough to create an artificial hurricane that stretched over the horizon, powering a capital ship with lightning, destroying the Skyhook (that reached into orbit) with TK, one-shotting an AT-AT with lightning + killing it's crew, buckling the star destroyers hull, casually considering obliterating the Jedi Temple replica with one force push and other thing's I'm sure I'm forgetting. Dude still struggles with the likes of Kota, Paratus, Shaak Ti and a random Shadow Guard and tbh Vader has nothing approaching that crap.

Debatable, but irrelevant.

Absurd troll logic. Vader's level is established in numerous other works. Marek should be brought down to (slightly above) his level in those. It's the logical thing.

Considering the only thing I wanted to do was point out the absurdity of claiming a game that's called The Force Unleashed isn't about the Force being unleashed and that's the sole thing I interjected to do, I don't particularly care what you think about my "argument".

To address your first part, Marek is raw power without control. He also only "struggled" with Paratus' speed thanks to his legs, he destroyed him easily with the Force. Either way, Marek's supposed struggling with them were due to how unrefined his force attacks were, as he himself notes numerous times. In a raw power sense he should be beyond Vader, but he is not because he is not refined.

I'm using "troll" logic to show you how incorrect your argument is. Not to mention the idea that Galen beating Vader in combat (with effort) means he's actually on Vader's level as a Force User. I mean he is, but not because their duel was close.

I never argued that it wasn't about the Force being unleashed, merely that the way they showed the Force being Unleashed was by making a powerful character and making him fight powerful characters. All I'm saying is that making a character be intensely strong for the purpose of making a strong character, isn't grounds for it being disregarded. If you get my drift.

Vitiate is made as strong as he is to give the illusion to protagonists can't do anything to stop him. He's hyped for the sole purpose of hyping him, it's called story telling. We don't dismiss all his feats entirely simply because he's powerful, now do we.

If every other character in that game was far beyond what they'd previously shown then I'd understand, but they are not, so I do not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he's not actually as powerful as he's made out to be. He is certainly one of the strongest Force Users ever, but only in the same vein as Vader, Malgus, Revan etc. And as a duelist he is again, slightly above pre-ANH Vader's level.

With his feats he could casually throttle Dooku and Maul. More logically he'd struggle mightily against them.

Hmm... interesting. Fair enough.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Because I actually respect you I'll reply at some time at which I am not at work.

I was too enthralled by the other debate that ensued on this thread to interrupt, but seeing as that debate has apparently ended, and seeing as I wasn't scheduled to work today, I'll respond to Sel at some point today.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Hmm... interesting. Fair enough.

How's Neph's argument from belief, a fallacy, fair enough? :hmm

****, the Force Unleashed doesn't even have feats in it I'd consider top ten material in raw energy a Force user can generate

They're impressive, but not the most outlandish in the franchise :lmao

You're mistaking my attitude for agreement, lol.

Now THAT is fair enough :maybe

Your niceties sicken me

Awesome~

Originally posted by ILS
Your niceties sicken me

ILS right now:

https://youtu.be/cIPxLzfw6wU?t=6m5s

Originally posted by The_Tempest
One is a seasoned and extraordinary duelist who has gone toe-to-toe with one of the most powerful Force adepts of all time and attributed with some significant feats and accolades.

The other is Kas'im, who loses.
Mmm... I think I know where you were going with this

Kas'im dies.

NVM

Alrighty then.

Originally posted by Selenial
Shaak Ti is faster, stronger and far more cunning than Kas'im. She has proven herself to be a far greater duelist than someone who has been trained to perfection.
I doubt Shaak Ti is faster, considering Kas'im was initially outpacing Bane at the beginning of their fight on Lehon, and this was a Bane who had significantly improved since his duel with Sirak where he moved faster than the other Sith apprentices could even see.

Strength wise, Kas'im due to a lack of exposure doesn't have much in the way of strength feats, but he was capable of trading blows with Bane, a Djem So specialist who was the most heavily muscled cortosis miner on Apatros before developing great skill in physical augmentation as a Sith.

The quote I believe said Marek was trained to "all but perfection" with skill in Juyo Shien and Soresu, while Kas'im mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and spent an even longer time perfecting every move and sequence of those forms. In any case, Shaak Ti didn't "far" surpass Marek, considering their duel ended with her impaling herself on his blade in an attempted mutual destruction outcome. Shaak Ti was definitely pressing the engagement more than Marek was, but he was holding his own a little too well for her to far surpass him as a duelist.

Originally posted by Selenial
One may argue Kas'im is more skilled, but that is flawed. Kas'im's skill accolades come from a POD Bane, who'd never encountered a true masterful duelist before. Galen's on the other hand come from a point of view that's far more reliable, yet he was "lucky to have survived" his duel with her.
Drew Karpyshyn stated that whether or not it was Bane's opinion or an omniscient narrator's was up to debate. In any case, the narration has shifted into omniscient 3rd person perspective before even when it was focused on Bane.

If the accolade of Kas'im possibly being the greatest duelist of all time comes from an omniscient narrator, that's insanely impressive. If it came from Bane, it's coming from a guy who has spent hours reading exaggerated accounts of the ancient Sith where they do shit like blow up stars and wipe out entire solar systems, and regards the ancient Sith as beings of insane power and regards the Brotherhood of Darkness with great contempt, then it's no mean feat for a duelist of the brotherhood to perform at such a standard that Bane would entertain the notion of them being the best duelist who had ever lived.

Is Kas'im the greatest duelist who had ever lived up until his death, most likely not. It's still an impressive accolade that really shouldn't be casually dismissed.

Originally posted by Selenial
In the aspect of Force usage, she has used Tutaminis to divert Lightning attacks sent at her by Starkiller, and has dealt with him launching telekinetic debris at her mid combat. She's shown herself to be a powerful practitioner of Kinetite and is more than a match for Kas'im in the force. Most people would say she could destroy him with it rather easily
Considering Kas'im blocked the focal point of the force wave that collapsed the temple of the ancients, and had enough power to liquidate his flesh and shatter all of his bones, I believe Kas'im is capable of defending against Shaak Ti's force powers, and certainly wouldn't get destroyed rather easily by them. Kas'im doesn't really make use of Force lightning in combat, so I fail to see the relevance of Shaak Ti's tutaminus in this battle.

Basically, I believe Kas'im can defend against her force abilities and overcome her in lightsaber combat.

I did read your respect thread, and I can definitely understand your respect for Shaak Ti. I myself rate her among the higher half of the PT Council as of ROTS and she's actually one of my favorite PT era Jedi. I definitely think she could put up a great fight, but as my first post on this thread makes it clear I think Kas'im would win.

And I'd also like to state that I don't use Shaak Ti's supposedly low showings against Grievous against her, given the circumstances of her being tired from previous engagements, and I don't advocate the Shaak Ti was amped/Marek was hindered side of the Felucia Nexus controversy thing.

mmm That's probably the best case for Kas'm I've ever read, tbh. I might give him the edge now.

Zannah still dies though.

Carthage s*** his pants after reading that post.

https://i.imgur.com/icDAkh.jpg

Inb4 'Amped Lehon feats'.

Yeah. Amped Lehon feats make it a Shaak Ti victory.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Alrighty then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJGk4ofc18


Perhaps. On the other hand, Shaak Ti blitzed numerous magnaguards, who should, by all accounts have far greater perceptions than Sith Apprentices.
Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation

I can understand you saying Bane improved, but that doesn't actually mean he got faster.

Galen's got a similar feat by the way;
Then Starkiller was up and defending himself so quickly that Juno had hardly seen him move.

And yet she was faster than Marek was during their duel.

"Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all."

So honestly, determining which is faster might be difficult. I do hold to the fact that Shaak Ti is, but I can see the argument for the other way. Either way, speed won't be a determining factor in this fight, as I'm sure you'll agree.


While yes, contending with Bane is impressive in regards to Strength, I'd disagree that it's enough to merit facing Ti's blows. Galen Marek's physicality itself rivals that of Bane, and should by all accounts have the same force augmentation. She did not just contend with his strength, she overpowered it:
"The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward."

She also has the feat of crushing the head of a magnaguard, and holding off 9 of them at once in a bladelock, which is an immense display of strength:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111233150/4616421-4381269522-42146.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111233150/4616435-2365412214-m8ra7.gif

The quote I believe said Marek was trained to "all but perfection" with skill in Juyo Shien and Soresu, while Kas'im mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and spent an even longer time perfecting every move and sequence of those forms. In any case, Shaak Ti didn't "far" surpass Marek, considering their duel ended with her impaling herself on his blade in an attempted mutual destruction outcome. Shaak Ti was definitely pressing the engagement more than Marek was, but he was holding his own a little too well for her to far surpass him as a duelist.

He mastered all 7 forms, yes. That's more knowledge than Galen, yes. I think however the technical mastery of Lightsaber arts is being a tad overrated here. Instead of saying he mastered more forms, we need to look at how that's even an advantage here, because really it's not much of one. Shaak Ti mastered Makashi and Ataru, so her forms have no glaring weaknesses that he could exploit with another form (Like Kit Fisto being weak to Makashi, etc). She has encountered, and is proficient in, Jar'kai fencing, so he can't use that to secure an easy win. I struggle to believe he'd be superior, especially far superior, to one of the greatest Swordmasters alive.
"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."

Even if he is, Technical mastery doesn't mean anything unless he can back it up with Strength, Speed, Force Barriers, Force Attacks, Cunning, precognition and more. You are arguing he has better than her in the majority of the above, I don't believe he does. If he's outclassed in those areas, technical skill will not save him.

So if we look at those areas, I've addressed the first two already.

For Force Barriers and Tutaminis, I don't believe the Lehon feat is quite as impressive as you would have us believe. I respect it, but I don't think it's as incredible as you say. In Star Wars, there's two types of Force Attacks that are used in duels. One's a wide hitting, environmental destroying attack. The other is a targeted and precise attack. Bane's wave had enough of a kinetic force to shatter his bones and break his body, yes. But when you actually look at what Kas'im had to defend, really it was just that. A telekinetic push that would normally shatter one's bones and break one's body.

Defending that, as a force user, isn't that impressive. Darth Maul has done the same to normal individuals:

"Then the rest opened fire at once. Maul leapt and jinked, spun and rolled, an acrobatic wonder, impossible to target. He stopped once to raise his hand and pepper his opponents with a flurry of Force-hurled glassware and sharp instruments. He turned blasters against each other and wrenched one fighter down onto a table with enough force to snap the man's spine."

Yet he could never do it to Kenobi, Jinn, or the other Jedi he's faced. It stands to reason that it's an easy attack to defend against. And really it should be. When you narrow down the scale and actually look at what Kas'im blocked, it's not as impressive. And it's not proof that he can resist what even Galen Marek could not.

In terms of battlefield strategy and cunning, Shaak Ti should be able to manipulate Kas'im to her advantage. She was considered the most cunning Jedi alive, and was praised by Palpatine for her tactical ingenuity. She utilized it in combat against Starkiller as well, by predicting the advantage he would go for and seizing it.

From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all.

"Anakin, he was defended by Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. If two Masters could not prevent this, do you think you could? Stass Allie is clever and valiant, and Shaak Ti is the most cunning Jedi I've ever met. She's even taught me a few tricks."

Shaak Ti: Togruta Jedi Master and practitioner of both Makashi and Ataru lightsaber techniques. She was old and strong, and must have been wily indeed to have survived so long. Order 66 may have been issued many years ago, but it was still firmly in place all across the Empire.

So even if he retains a technical advantage, it won't make him her equal as a duelist.


Agreed.



I believe that Shaak Ti is his superior as a duelist, even if her technical skill isn't as great as his. I don't think his mastery of forms will save him much against her. I also think her force advantage is being downplayed here.

But I'm glad to hear that. Likewise I'm not going to bring up the Lehon Nexus, since we haven't seen Kas'im without one, I don't think it's particularly fair.

^

Well, I have an 8 hour shift today that I have to leave for in a few minutes, so my reply won't come until later tonight. In any case, great reply Sel

Originally posted by Selenial
Perhaps. On the other hand, Shaak Ti blitzed numerous magnaguards, who should, by all accounts have far greater perceptions than Sith Apprentices.
Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation

Perceptions got nothing to do with a blitz. Plus if we're talking strict perception a Sith apprentice has precognition, which is greater than even lightspeed. Not that any of that is relevant. It's not like Shaak Ti actually surpassed near lightspeed reflexes.

Kas'im's Lehon amp precludes any serious look on him as a combatant.

The only thing certain is that he's that good with the amp. Without the amp he is lesser.

As demonstrated, Ti's feats already rival/exceed Kas'im's feats that he performed on a nexus. On a neutral ground as specified in the OP Shaak Ti is the clear winner.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perceptions got nothing to do with a blitz.

Post was entirely invalidated within the first sentence.

New record Neph, grats

The supposed amp is completely irrelevant because every person relevant to all his feats was a darksider. The apprentices watching Bane were Sith, Bane was a Sith and so was Kas'im.

Originally posted by Selenial
Post was entirely invalidated within the first sentence.

New record Neph, grats

A blitz is about speed. Perceiving something isn't the same as blocking it. Especially considering precognition. A Magnaguard might have near lightspeed reflexes but they can't move remotely that fast so it's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Selenial
Post was entirely invalidated within the first sentence.

New record Neph, grats
LOL

Originally posted by Nephthys
The supposed amp is completely irrelevant because every person relevant to all his feats was a darksider. The apprentices watching Bane were Sith, Bane was a Sith and so was Kas'im.
LOL

"supposed amp"? Are you denying that Lehon is a nexus?


Nexus amp is relevant because it grants the Force wielder more power than s/he would have got on a neutral ground.

Thus, amped performances of Kas'im cannot be properly juxtaposed with un-amped performances of Shaak Ti.

It's so simple I cannot believe I have to spell it out for you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A blitz is about speed. Perceiving something isn't the same as blocking it. Especially considering precognition. A Magnaguard might have near lightspeed reflexes but they can't move remotely that fast so it's irrelevant.

It's a shame that they don't even move when she's attacking them then. If they at least tried to block it, this argument would stand. They didn't though, they perceive what she was doing fast enough.

And what in the flying **** does precognition have to do with this when we're talking about accolades ability to see something?

Originally posted by Selenial
It's a shame that they don't even move when she's attacking them then. If they at least tried to block it, this argument would stand. They didn't though, they perceive what she was doing fast enough.

And what in the flying **** does precognition have to do with this when we're talking about accolades ability to see something?

Gosh, then I guess she must have been moving faster than the speed of light! What a valid argument! They didn't move because of the quality of the animation, we see her in several other instances very much not blitzing Magnaguards or moving so fast they can't react.

Nothing, which is why I said that all of it was irrelevant. Your comparison was invalid. Shaak Ti didn't move faster than the Magnaguards ability to percieve her like Bane did with the Sith, unless you want to seriously suggest she was moving faster than lightspeed at which point I'll just post as many laughing gifs as I can fit in a post.

>people not realizing the near-lightspeed thing was hyperbole

Originally posted by Nephthys
Gosh, then I guess she must have been moving faster than the speed of light! What a valid argument! They didn't move because of the quality of the animation, we see her in several other instances very much not blitzing Magnaguards or moving so fast they can't react.

Nothing, which is why I said that all of it was irrelevant. Your comparison was invalid. Shaak Ti didn't move faster than the Magnaguards ability to percieve her like Bane did with the Sith, unless you want to seriously suggest she was moving faster than lightspeed at which point I'll just post as many laughing gifs as I can fit in a post.

You lack a fundamental understanding of physics if you think the Magnaguards actually perceive, compute and react to events at Lightspeed. Hyperbole is Hyperbole, but it's there to prove that Magnaguards have rapid reaction times. Reaction times that eclipse that of standard Acolytes.

Not to mention we've seen her matching the speed of 3 magnaguards attacking her at once, it stands to reason if she focused her attentions on one, it would get blitzed.

Originally posted by ILS
>people not realizing the near-lightspeed thing was hyperbole

Possibly, even probably.

Also Sel, Bane very much had gotten a lot faster. When the fight started, Kas'im rushed forward and was extremely surprised that Bane actually managed to react to him, indicating that he was expecting to blitz Bane off the bat. Meaning that even though Kas'im had witnessed Bane's takedown of Sirak, he still thought he could easily blitz Bane. That he did not, that Bane did in fact have the upper hand in ability, indicates Bane's massive growth between those two points.

facepalm

True. I'd say he exceeds Bane.

Originally posted by Stigma
True. I'd say he exceeds Bane.

Ignoring Force augmentation? What was so physically impressive about Marek? Bane was literally built like someone like Shaquille O'Neal.

O'Neal is like ten inches taller than Bane. And more handsome too.

Regardless, Bane looks like a puffed failed strongman with a potato instead of a face.

On the other hand, Marek's physique makes Juno wet.

Originally posted by Stigma


Regardless, Bane looks like a puffed failed strongman with a potato instead of a face.

Originally posted by Stigma
O'Neal is like ten inches taller than Bane. And more handsome too.

Regardless, Bane looks like a puffed failed strongman with a potato instead of a face.

On the other hand, Marek's physique makes Juno wet.

1. Bane was approximately 2 metres tall.

2. Dessel resembled a young Channing Tatum before the dark side ravaged his delicate features. Galen Marek would have been ugly too if he had been a bit more powerful.

Lol, rekt.

Originally posted by appletonia
Dessel resembled a young Channing Tatum before the dark side ravaged his delicate features.
Yet, this is Darth Bane we're discussing, so after Dessel's turn to the Dark Side.

And he's ugly as ****.

Bane banged Githany something like, 17 times, and she's way hotter than Juno.

Githany has a dick, tho.

And Marek lost count on how many times he f***ed Juno. It's over 9000!

Do to unforeseen IRL plans tonight, my response is going to be delayed to tomorrow.

Originally posted by ILS
>people not realizing the near-lightspeed thing was hyperbole

attosecond

How is the Magnaguard having Near Lightspeed reflexes hyperbole? I understand calling it an outlier for Jedi but saying that it's hyperbole doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me.

BTW I do consider the Lightspeed statements as outliers from the ROTS novel. Every other source states Jedi/Sith use precog to let them know beforehand when an enemy is going to fire at them, rather than reacting and outspeeding the projectile itself. They just move faster than their enemies quickdraw.

But that's besides the point, I think Kas'im can win tbh however he does have the problem of being on a Nexus and using it.

Because it's impossible for matter to move that fast, especially outside of the vacuum of space, and we've never seen them move that fast? If a a magnaguard even got close to lightspeed movements, it would also get pretty close to timetravel.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because it's impossible for matter to move that fast, especially outside of the vacuum of space, and we've never seen them move that fast? If a a magnaguard even got close to lightspeed movements, it would also get pretty close to timetravel.

Tell that to the rest of fiction

I mean, this is a fine way to think on a purely star wars focused board, but the sheer volume of fiction that doesn't give a shit is staggering and kind of laughs at this mentality otherwise

On the subject of Bane being like 6 foot 5 or whatever and built like a brick shithouse, I actually find it quite terrifying that Malgus is legitimately 7 feet tall.

What a f***ing monster, he's huge!

Yeah. That's sick. And Malgus is supposed to be 7'2" lol
He's taller than Shaq who's 7'1".

Bane with his feeble 6'6" looks like an overgrown toddler in comparison.

Because Malgus is unmatched on the battlefield, 7'2" of pure bad ass.

Originally posted by Trocity
I actually find it quite terrifying that Malgus is legitimately 7 feet tall.

What a f***ing monster, he's huge! Same height as Savage Opress. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2193636915.gif

Technically, the text simply states that the attack was capable of that, not that it was capable of only that. We know that shattering his bones and breaking his body was within the realm of the attack's power; we have no idea how close it was to the upper limit of what the attack could do.

When you consider the sheer depth of the temple (based on TOR depictions) that the attack when through, defending any area of the attack is insanely impressive.

Shaak Ti shatters his bones and breaks his body.

Not to interject but your wrong here. Marek was capable of dodging canon fire from ATT walkers/concussion grenades simultaneously (without aid of a nexus):



He was also capable of dodging omnidirectional blasterfire:



Shaak Ti being faster than a guy who can see Rahm Kota in slow motion, dodge cannon fire/omindirectional blaster fire is easily a superior feat of speed than Bane moving faster than Sith apprentices who don't compare to Galen in speed to begin with. Not seeing how Kas'im is faster than Shaak in any sense at all