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Who wins?

No time limit.

1. Base form Vegetto.

2. Full.SSJ God SSJ.

1. Gogeta, unless this is a Vegito formed by base GT Goku and Vegeta, then it's interesting.

2. Vegito


I'm an amateur when it comes to DBZ vs. battles, but I'd say Vegito. Some old thread I read on another site said Super Vegito could go toe to toe with SSJ3 Gogeta, so going by that logic SSJSSJG Vegito stomps hard.

1. Gogeta stomps.

2. If this is Vegetto from DBZ, but with SSJGSSJ form, then he loses terribly. If this is Vegetto formed by GT Goku and Vegeta, then he wins at probably wins at SSJ1.

Vegito both rounds.

Originally posted by cdtm
Who wins?

No time limit.

1. Base form Vegetto.

2. Full.SSJ God SSJ.

Impossible to calculate power levels for a SSGSS Vegetto. But I dare anyone to try.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Impossible to calculate power levels for a SSGSS Vegetto. But I dare anyone to try.

Over 9000 fo sho biscuits

SSJ4 Gogeta

Gogeta. Stomp.

Originally posted by Galan007
Gogeta. Stomp.

Hm, where abouts do you see a SSJ God SSJ potera fusion being in GT?

And for references sake, with equal base stats, how do you see SSJ God stacking up to SSJ4?

Z is approaching GT levels.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Impossible to calculate power levels for a SSGSS Vegetto. But I dare anyone to try.

Heh, pretty much. I'd think he'd well over a trillion, though.

Omega Shenron is at least ten times stronger than his previous Syn form, possibly more:

http://i.imgur.com/xG7vxjV.png

Syn Shenron kicked the crap out of SS4 Goku before the latter surpassed his limits, and we all know SS4 Gogeta in turn stomped Omega

GT multipliers are ridiculous, yes

I would think that a hypothetical SSJG(Blue) Vegitto would stand fair chance against SSJ4 Goku, even if SSJ4 Gogeta would stomp him.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Z is approaching GT levels.

No, it's not.

Goku in DBS so far couldn't beat Buu in SSJ1, and probably not even in SSJ2.

In GT, base Goku was TOYING with someone STRONGER than Buu.

GT > Z/Super

It's that simple, no matter how much you want to avoid it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No, it's not.

Goku in DBS so far couldn't beat Buu in SSJ1, and probably not even in SSJ2.

In GT, base Goku was TOYING with someone STRONGER than Buu.

GT > Z/Super

It's that simple, no matter how much you want to avoid it.

Your a wikipedia regurgitation machine, so your opinion means jack shit.

Originally posted by cdtm
Hm, where abouts do you see a SSJ God SSJ potera fusion being in GT?

And for references sake, with equal base stats, how do you see SSJ God stacking up to SSJ4? Goku starts off in GT 400x more powerful than he was in Z.

I can break it down thoroughly if you'd like, but in a nutshell: a n00b SSJ4>>anything in Z(including Beerus/Whis.) Imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku starts off in GT 400x more powerful than he was in Z.

And base Goku in BoG is much more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, and Majin Buu. After training with Whis, he's a lot more powerful than even that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And base Goku in BoG is much more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, and Majin Buu. After training with Whis, he's a lot more powerful than even that.

Much more would be 2x as much, at least that's enough to roflstomp an enemy, 400x is ridiculous and above anything from canon DB.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Much more would be 2x as much, at least that's enough to roflstomp an enemy, 400x is ridiculous and above anything from canon DB.

Right. 2x as much as SSJ3 Goku who is 400x Base Goku.

Base RoF Goku being at least 2-3x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, and Majin Buu is still ludicrously powerful.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Right. 2x as much as SSJ3 Goku who is 400x Base Goku.

Base RoF Goku being at least 2-3x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, and Majin Buu is still ludicrously powerful.

Yes it is. But SSJ4 Goku is several hundreds of times stronger than Buu

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Right. 2x as much as SSJ3 Goku who is 400x Base Goku.

Base RoF Goku being at least 2-3x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, and Majin Buu is still ludicrously powerful. Base GT Goku~base Rildo, who was confirmed to be "even more powerful than Majin Boo." This means base GT Goku ~/> SSJ3 Z Goku.

That said, when GT Goku transformed into a SSJ, his PL would have increased by 50x. When he transformed into SSJ2, his PL would have increased by an additional 2x. When he transformed into SSJ3, his PL would have increased by an additional 4x.

As for SSJ4: we also know that Super Baby Vegeta 2(who was >> SSJ3 GT Goku) gained a 10x power increase when he became a Golden Oozaru. This is important because n00b SSJ4 Goku was on par with Golden Oozaru Baby. Subsequently, this means SSJ4 was more than 10x> SSJ3.

In a nutshell:
n00b SSJ4 Goku SSJ3 GT Goku SSJ2 GT Goku SSJ GT Goku base GT Goku base Rildo Majin Boo SSJ3 Z Goku base Z Goku.

OR we can simplify it by saying that n00b SSJ4 Goku was at least 4,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku.

Stupid as it sounds, that is the type of absurd power we're dealing with in GT.

Originally posted by Galan007
Base GT Goku~base Rildo, who was confirmed to be "even more powerful than Majin Boo." This means base GT Goku ~/> SSJ3 Z Goku.

Which is still miles weaker than base BoG Goku, who would stomp Majin Buu.



OR we can simplify it by saying that n00b SSJ4 Goku was at least 4,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku.

Stupid as it sounds, that is the type of absurd power we're dealing with in GT.

Yep, I'm aware of that.

And if you take Base!RoF Goku who, if we're using Majin Buu as comparison, completely blows Base!GT Goku out of the water... Then have him transform into a SSJGSSJ, which is stronger than SSJG, which in turn is far and beyond standard SSJ... Then have him fuse with the equally powerful SSJGSSJ Vegeta into a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta, which supposedly makes him dozens of times stronger... I don't see why it's ludicrouse to assert that he might have a shot at competing with n00b SSJ4 Goku.

Notice that you said he would be "dozens of times stronger". SSJ4 Goku was THOUSANDS of times stronger. Big difference

And shit like this is why I'm glad they don't care about PLs anymore.

If it means anything to try and figure out SSG form, Goku said him and Vegeta fusing again wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus.

srug

Edit

Originally posted by juggerman
Notice that you said he would be "dozens of times stronger". SSJ4 Goku was THOUSANDS of times stronger. Big difference

...Dozens of times stronger than SSJGSSJ Goku, who very well could be hundreds of times stronger than Majin Buu or Z Goku lol, did you not read?

SSJG Vegetto? The multipliers would be insane. You have to take into account which version of Goku and Vegeta you're using. RoF Goku and Vegeta are exponentially stronger than their Buu saga counterparts. I bet a Potara fusion at SSJG level in their current PLs would equal, or even surpass, SSJ4 Gogeta.

SSJ4 Gogeta is simply SSJ4 Goku PL + SSJ4 Vegeta PL. SSJG Vegetto would be SSJG Goku PL x SSJG Vegeta PL + Rival boost.

Vegetto omega stomps! No real challenge here.

Can I get a quote that points to Base ROF Goku being beyond EOZ SSJ3 Goku please?

I can see SSJG Goku being greater than SSJ3 Goku, but base? I call that bull until I see the evidence.

In the film SSJ3 Goku was stomped by Beerus. Later in the film base Goku was trading blows with Beerus.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
...Dozens of times stronger than SSJGSSJ Goku, who very well could be hundreds of times stronger than Majin Buu or Z Goku lol, did you not read?

That "hundreds of times stronger" was a wild ass guess on your part. The only "fact" you have is that fusion would make them MAYBE "dozens" of times stronger. Still nowhere near approaching SSJ4

Originally posted by bbrem123
In the film SSJ3 Goku was stomped by Beerus. Later in the film base Goku was trading blows with Beerus.

Which could be explained by Goku simply doubling his power. That's all Gohan needed to be far and away superior to Cell mind you

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Can I get a quote that points to Base ROF Goku being beyond EOZ SSJ3 Goku please?

I can see SSJG Goku being greater than SSJ3 Goku, but base? I call that bull until I see the evidence.


Goku absorbed SSJG power and make it his own. He could actually put a decent fight against Bills after his SSJG form is out, and Bills said his power didn't decrease drastically after Goku reverted to base form.

Originally posted by BeyonderGod
Vegetto omega stomps! No real challenge here.

Nah

Originally posted by juggerman
hundreds is a wild ass guess on your part.

How is it a guess when we know how powerful the normal SSJ transformation is, and dually know that the SSJG and SSJGSSJ is beyond it, and that Base RoF Goku is already far and away superior to SSJ3 Goku, Majin Buu, and SSJ2 Vegeta?

The difference possibly capping 100x is hardly unreasonable.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I can see SSJG Goku being greater than SSJ3 Goku, but base? I call that bull until I see the evidence. After becoming a SSJG, Goku absorbed that level of power into his being. So when he reverted from SSJG back to base, his power didn't drop much at all(Beerus made note of such.)

So as of BoG, base Goku is now around SSJG-level.

Originally posted by juggerman
That "hundreds of times stronger" was a wild ass guess on your part. The only "fact" you have is that fusion would make them MAYBE "dozens" of times stronger. Still nowhere near approaching SSJ4

Even the difference between 1st form Freeza and Nail was 'only' 12.6x, and we saw what a laughably...retardedly....ridiculously one-sided shit-stomp that was. That said, I also think the 'hundreds of times' thing is a WAY overinflated estimate. /shrug

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How is it a guess when we know how powerful the normal SSJ transformation is, and dually know that the SSJG and SSJGSSJ is beyond it, and that Base RoF Goku is already far and away superior to SSJ3 Goku, Majin Buu, and SSJ2 Vegeta?

The difference possibly capping 100x is hardly unreasonable.

Beerus had to use 70% of his power to handle SSJG Goku the way he did. That means SSJG Goku was at least north of 50% of Beerus. Now as a SSGSS he was still inferior to Beerus meaning the SSGSS form is less of a power up than ANY SSJ form before it.

Think about it: If Goku was 50% of Beerus' power then a 50x boost would allow him to bolostomp Beerus. Hell even the 2x SSJ2 gives would put him on par with Beerus. So no bud, hundreds of times stronger is a pipe dream

BSSJG isn't really implied to be much(if any) stronger than SSJG was--and Toriyama stated that as of BoG, SSJG Goku was a 6 compared to Beerus' 10. Goku has simply mastered the Godly power now(via training with Whis), and no longer has a time limit--he's still weaker than Beerus individually, though. And since we know Goku's base form isn't that much weaker than SSJG was, logic dictates that BSSJG gleans less than a 2x boost over Goku's base.

Just because Goku likened BSSJG to a SSJ in order to make it easier for Freeza to comprehend the transformation itself, doesn't mean we're dealing with the same multiplier, lol. These are two completely different transformations, after all.

Originally posted by juggerman
Beerus had to use 70% of his power to handle SSJG Goku the way he did. That means SSJG Goku was at least north of 50% of Beerus.

It was 60%, more or less.



That's because it's not an evolution from SSJG, it's entirely different. Either way, SSJG itself was beyond normal SSJ, so obviously SSJGSSJ is well above a 50x amp.



Except Goku isn't even 50% of Beerus as a Super Saiyan in BoG.



How do you figure Goku's base isn't much weaker than SSJG? SSJG is demonstrably far stronger than Super Saiyan judging from how the latter couldn't hope to stop Beerus's earth-buster but the former could. SSJG>>SSJ>>>Base.

Also, in RoF Goku is shocked at how massive of a boost Freiza's final transformation was, and outwardly admits his surprise. Now you're trying to tell me it was the lowest multiplier of all Frieza's transformations?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It was 60%, more or less.

I left room for error but I agree with you

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's because it's not an evolution from SSJG, it's entirely different. Either way, SSJG itself was beyond normal SSJ, so obviously SSJGSSJ is well above a 50x amp.

I think this is where the confusion is coming from. Goku was able to retain the SSJG power even after he lost the form due to time limit. As we can see he still fought evenly with Beerus even after he went back to base. Beerus even stated he didn't lose much power. That means Goku at base is now around SSJG level. Him transforming from that level to SSJGSSJ is lees of a boost than he received when he went SSJ originally(Before SSJG was introduced)

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except Goku isn't even 50% of Beerus as a Super Saiyan in BoG.

But Goku as a SSJG was. That's the point. So going from SSJG to SSJGSSJ is less than a 2x boost

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How do you figure Goku's base isn't much weaker than SSJG? SSJG is demonstrably far stronger than Super Saiyan judging from how the latter couldn't hope to stop Beerus's earth-buster but the former could. SSJG>>SSJ>>>Base.

Also, in RoF Goku is shocked at how massive of a boost Freiza's final transformation was, and outwardly admits his surprise. Now you're trying to tell me it was the lowest multiplier of all Frieza's transformations?

Because it isn't now. After he became a SSJG he retained that power so he has it now even in base form. I think you are getting confused because you didn't realize Goku's base level increased so much

He retained some of it, yes.



He contended with him briefly, which means his base is far and beyond what he was as a SSJ3 earlier in the movie, but he wasn't even his equal after going SSJ so how could he have been even with him at base?

I feel like everyone is forgetting that Goku went SSJ after SSJG timed out in BoG.



I haven't argued otherwise. SSJGSSJ isn't an upgrade from SSJG; it's a completely different transformation... Which we know is about as powerful and more sustainable, but still separate.



...Except even after he went SSJ he still wasn't as powerful as he was as SSJG, so your argument basically relies on SSJ Goku being ~Base Goku, which makes no sense.

Also, I re-iterate:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How do you figure Goku's base isn't much weaker than SSJG? a.) Because Beerus said so.
b.) Because base Goku contended with Beerus almost as well as SSJG did.


The same statement was made by Beerus in the English dub as well. So again: SSJG is more powerful than base Goku, but the difference is marginal. If SSJG Goku is a 6.0, then base Goku is probably around a 5.0.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, in RoF Goku is shocked at how massive of a boost Freiza's final transformation was, and outwardly admits his surprise. Now you're trying to tell me it was the lowest multiplier of all Frieza's transformations? In all likelihood, FIRST FORM Freeza was already in the upper-echelon of ki that the Z-Fighters had ever sensed, judging by their utterly awestruck/dumbfounded reactions to his power. Hell, Gohan outright stated that there was "no way" he could defeat FIRST FORM Freeza:
http://i.imgur.com/a2ZyrjXm.png

That said, 4th form Freeza would have undoubtedly been far more powerful than anyone we have ever seen in Z(aside from Beerus/Whis), by a huge margin.


So yeah, doubling/tripling power of that magnitude IS a massive increase.

Galan's right.

But the way I see it, SSJGSSJ isn't really a SSJ boost to SSJG(which it obviously isn't, as it's a 2X or less boost to SSJG), but it's just a godly ki version of SSJ to Goku's new godly ki base form.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Goku lost the ability to go regular SSJ1, 2, or 3, although it would suck. But it seems like his regular SSJ forms don't affect his godly ki, and he's going to need new SSJ forms to boost his godly ki, now that he uses godly ki in his base form. The same goes for Vegeta.

I think SSJG was basically just channeling godly ki into Goku's base form, which let him retain that strength.

If that's the case though, then I don't get how the evil Saiyan's managed to take out the SSJG once it turned back, since it shouldn't have lost much power, like Goku. Toriyama's really doing a bad job though, these days, imo.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

I haven't argued otherwise. SSJGSSJ isn't an upgrade from SSJG; it's a completely different transformation... Which we know is about as powerful and more sustainable, but still separate.
This is what I was thinking as well. I have a hunch that SSG is actually more powerful. We have to remember that Goku was still a complete noob at SSG when he faced Beerus.

The thing that makes me feel like SSG and SSGSSJ are different forms is the face that goku had a complete body change in SSG mode. What ever happened to that?

Idk I could be completely wrong ha

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
But the way I see it, SSJGSSJ isn't really a SSJ boost to SSJG(which it obviously isn't, as it's a 2X or less boost to SSJG), but it's just a godly ki version of SSJ to Goku's new godly ki base form.





Some of it, anyway.



Not even sure what you're trying to say here, tbh.



Akira Toriyama said something similar; something to note though is that SSJGSSJ is far more efficient, and Goku's a good bit stronger as of RoF anyway.

So summing it up, SSJGSSJ RoF Goku > SSJG BoG Goku, even if the transformation itself isn't stronger.

Originally posted by Galan007
In all likelihood, FIRST FORM Freeza was already in the upper-echelon of ki that the Z-Fighters had ever sensed, judging by their utterly awestruck/dumbfounded reactions to his power. Hell, Gohan outright stated that there was "no way" he could defeat FIRST FORM Freeza:

Doesn't this prove my point even more, then? I mean, 100% 4th form Frieza is like 300x more powerful than he is in 1st form; even if his 5th form is only a 3x boost--and I still suspect it's more going by context--that's still approaching 1,000x stronger than a Frieza that Gohan can't even compete with.

And then you have SSJGSSJ Goku and Vegeta, who are just insane in power, fusing into a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta--which would supposedly multiply their power dozens of times--and it's still not reasonable to assert they could compete with a SSJ4?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

If that's the case though, then I don't get how the evil Saiyan's managed to take out the SSJG once it turned back, since it shouldn't have lost much power, like Goku. Toriyama's really doing a bad job though, these days, imo.

Ha, that stood out for me, too. If the original SSJ God was the same as Goku (And he should be, since Goku used the same method to achieve it), then then him becoming weak enough for any other Saiyan to beat is a plot hole.

Goku was the third strongest being in the universe in BoG even after SSJG burnt out, but we're supposed to believe the original SSJG became weak as a kitten when he reverted to base?

Didn't Beerus consider him specifically impressive for retaining that strength though?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Doesn't this prove my point even more, then? I mean, 100% 4th form Frieza is like 300x more powerful than he is in 1st form; even if his 5th form is only a 3x boost--and I still suspect it's more going by context--that's still approaching 1,000x stronger than a Frieza that Gohan can't even compete with. Assuming the multipliers for Freeza are still the same, then his 4th form is 226x> his 1st form.
-1st form Freeza=530k.
-4th form Freeza(100%)=120m.
-530k/120m=226

That said, Freeza's Golden form would have 'only' tripled his power at the absolute most. 226*3=678x.

As you can see, even Freeza's Golden form was less than 700x> his 1st form.

So unless you think 1st form Freeza was 3,300x> SSJ3 Goku(which is lulz-worthy), then his Golden form wouldn't be remotely close to SSJ4-level. Same with BSSJG Goku/Vegeta.

Originally posted by cdtm
Ha, that stood out for me, too. If the original SSJ God was the same as Goku (And he should be, since Goku used the same method to achieve it), then then him becoming weak enough for any other Saiyan to beat is a plot hole.

Goku was the third strongest being in the universe in BoG even after SSJG burnt out, but we're supposed to believe the original SSJG became weak as a kitten when he reverted to base? Goku was only able to absorb the Godly ki into his person because he is such a genius warrior. In fact, even Beerus himself was amazed that he was able to do so:


Beerus states the same thing about Goku in the English dub...
Beerus: "I didn't think it was possible. You're a true prodigy, like few I've ever seen."

Furthermore, SSJG was never intended to be a permanent amp at all. Much like fusion, SSJG was only supposed to last a very short duration before it timed out, and Goku reverted back down to his normal level. Shenron clearly stated this during his exposition speech...
Shenron: "The easily defeated the evil Saiyans with his immense power... But he then vanished as quickly as he came, as the energy the Saiyans had offered him could not last for long."
(ie. the original SSJG didn't retain said power.)

So yeah, permanently merging with the Godly ki certainly isn't something that any random Saiyan could have done. Goku and Vegeta are very special/rare cases.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku was only able to absorb the Godly ki into his person because he is such a genius warrior. In fact, even Beerus himself was amazed that he was able to do so:


Beerus states the same thing about Goku in the English dub...
Beerus: "I didn't think it was possible. You're a true prodigy, like few I've ever seen."

Furthermore, SSJG was never intended to be a permanent amp at all. Much like fusion, SSJG was only supposed to last a very short duration before it timed out, and Goku reverted back down to his normal level. Shenron clearly stated this during his exposition speech...
Shenron: "The easily defeated the evil Saiyans with his immense power... But he then vanished as quickly as he came, as the energy the Saiyans had offered him could not last for long."
(ie. the original SSJG didn't retain said power.)

So yeah, permanently merging with the Godly ki certainly isn't something that any random Saiyan could have done. Goku and Vegeta are very special/rare cases.

Goku's not really that good of a warrior, at least compared to most of the other Saiyan's we've seen. He's only ever beaten someone by simply overpowering them. Whiss even said that his fighting technique was poor compared to him and Bills. And he said that Vegeta's technique was very good, but that he hesitated with his movements too much.

He just happens to be very good at imitating attacks after he's seen them, or at least understanding them, and developing counters to them. Which is why he copied the kamehameha after seeing it once in DB. He even called it the "monkey-see, monkey-do technique", in Dragon Ball, iirc.

Anyway, Goku absorbed nearly as much godly ki into his base form as he had in his SSJG form, which is why he didn't lose hardly any power, according to Bills. It just seems really weird to me that another Saiyan couldn't AT LEAST absorb like half of his SSJG ki into his base form, ya know? Even just a bit of godly ki would put him FAR above any other Saiyan, even great apes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Assuming the multipliers for Freeza are still the same, then his 4th form is 226x> his 1st form.
-1st form Freeza=530k.
-4th form Freeza(100%)=120m.
-530k/120m=226

That said, Freeza's Golden form would have 'only' tripled his power at the absolute most. 226*3=678x.

As you can see, even Freeza's Golden form was less than 700x> his 1st form.

So unless you think 1st form Freeza was 3,300x> SSJ3 Goku(which is lulz-worthy), then his Golden form wouldn't be remotely close to SSJ4-level. Same with BSSJG Goku/Vegeta.

Yeah, it was pretty crazy that First form Frieza was so superior to SSJ Gohan, and Super Piccolo, but those are both only weak SSJ1 tier characters. Piccolo being even weaker than Gohan. So a SSJ2 tier could probably beat First form Frieza. And Frieza's fourth form is only a 226 boost to his base form. So that would be 226 times greater than a SSJ2. And base GT Goku was superior FAR AND AWAY to SSJ3 Goku from DBZ. Meaning that if he, in base, was 5 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which is very likely, given that he casually toyed with Rildo who was "stronger than Majin Buu", then Goku in SSJ1 would be around 250 times stronger than SSJ3 DBZ Goku. Which means he would be far and away stronger than Final Form Frieza, in ROF. Which ALSO means that SSJ2 GT Goku would probably beat Golden Frieza, and SSJ3 Goku would ROFL-stomp him.

So it really supports what I've been saying for a long time. SSJ3 GT Goku would DEFINITELY rofl-stomp the entire DBZ-verse, Bills and Whiss included.

Which still puts SSJ4 so far out of the range of any point in DBZ that it doesn't see it beyond the event horizon.

Having said that, to answer this thread, SSJ4 Gogeta still bolostomps SSJG Vegitto, because, even while the Potara fusion is superior strength wise and it eliminates the time limit Gogeta has, the strength modifiers Gogeta has because of SSJ4 puts him over the top.

It's impossible to place Godku, Beerus and Whis in a GT power-chain, because we don't know how big the boost provided by SSG is.
Personally, I wouldn't say that someone claiming SSGSS Vegetto would win is wrong, but I wouldn't say that someone going with Gogeta is wrong either.
Ssj4 Gogeta is stated to be "only" few tens of times stronger than Ssj4 Vegeta/Goku, while the boost Potara gave to Vegetto was enough to put Ssj Goku/Vegeta from being around PC level at most, to being able to curbstomp Boohan without using arms: Potara boost at Vegetto >>>>>> GT Ssj4 Gogeta fusion boost.
Now, if you apply the same boost to someone (SSGSS Goku/Vegeta) who is arguably already a GT tier character, I can easily see SSGSS Vegetto being able to ignite Ssj4 Gogeta to flames just by clapping his hands.
However, GT power increases during the series is ridicolous, since in Super17 saga Ssj Goku is proven to be > Ssj4 Goku at the Baby saga, and this goes on and on, with Ssj4 Goku at the Dragons being stronger than Ssj4 Goku in the S17 display; then, Ssj4 Goku surpasses his limits and becomes at least 10 times stronger, while Ssj4 Vegeta is equal to surpassed limits Ssj4 Goku. Then, again, they fuse and Ssj4 Gogeta is a few tens of times stronger even than that, so, while his fusion boost is insignificant compared to what Vegetto would obtain, his GT backup power-increase story is really massive.
In simple words: do you believe that SSGSS + gianormous Potara boosts can overcome all of this? If yes, Vegetto stomps, otherwise Gogeta wins.
Personally, I'd tend to be in favour of the first option.

I was estimating.



Woah woah woah, hold on there.

3,300x678=2,237,400

You said that SSJ4 Goku was 4,000x Z SSJ3 Goku, not 2 million times. Please stay consistent with me here lol.



This is true. Which is why I said hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta, who would be "perhaps dozens of times stronger" than any of the above.

Which, by the calculations you're throwing at me, may actually put him above a n00b SSJ4. He'd still lose to SSJ4 Gogeta or Omega Shenron, though...

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yeah, it was pretty crazy that First form Frieza was so superior to SSJ Gohan, and Super Piccolo, but those are both only weak SSJ1 tier characters.

I hear that Mystic Gohan during the Buu saga was supposed to be the strongest un-fused character in the series according to Toriyama though???

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Woah woah woah, hold on there.

3,300x678=2,237,400

You said that SSJ4 Goku was 4,000x Z SSJ3 Goku, not 2 million times. Please stay consistent with me here lol. Lol, math isn't exactly your strong suit, eh? I'll make it easier for you: no matter how you slice it, SSJ4 was still THOUSANDS of times beyond Golden Freeza and/or BSSJG Goku/Vegeta.

Hell, even if there was a 1,000x difference between SSJ3 and SSJG(which would be a retarded/lulz-worthy assumption), it is still utterly inconsequential when compared to the 4,000x difference that exists between SSJ3 Z Goku and SSJ4 Goku.

GT levels are retarded as hell, but they are what they are. The sooner people accept this, the better.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So it really supports what I've been saying for a long time. SSJ3 GT Goku would DEFINITELY rofl-stomp the entire DBZ-verse, Bills and Whiss included. It's entirely possible.

SSJ3 GT Goku would have been at least 400x> SSJ3 Z Goku, after all. That should definitely be enough to put him comfortably beyond anything we've seen in Z so far, imo.

Remember: in the later days of Z, 2x increases in power were considered massive. 4x increases were considered ungodly gargantuan. Hell, even the difference between Nail and 1st form Freeza was 'only' 12.6x, and we saw how that went.

...Again, we're dealing with a 400x increase here, lol.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I hear that Mystic Gohan during the Buu saga was supposed to be the strongest un-fused character in the series according to Toriyama though??? He was. But by the time of RoF(which takes place 4-5 years after the Boo saga), Gohan has devolved into borderline fodder, due to lack of continued training.

Odd, I'm starting to feel like it isn't yours. You... do realize there's a difference between addition and multiplication right? You seem like a fairly intelligent fellow, so I'm guessing there must be some kind of miscommunication somewhere along the line here. I'm going to try and spell this out in the most deliberate fashion possible:



4000x SSJ3 Goku (In this case SSJ4 Goku) would be four times stronger than 1000x SSJ Goku (In this case SSJGSSJ Goku). Not thousands of times like you literally just claimed. Again, multiplication not addition.

Gogeta and Vegitto are dozens of times stronger than Goku is. By the same token, hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta and Vegitto would be dozens of times stronger than SSJGSSJ Goku is.

Dozens of times is a hell of a lot more than four times. Not thousands of times less.

Obviously SSJGSSJ=1000x SSJ3 is a random and not necessarily accurate number you've chosen to make a point, but by that chosen number SSJ4 Goku would get murderstomped. Taking up a more humble number, it's more debatable.



Didn't we just agree that we may be talking about multi-100x increase with Freiza, and by extension Goku?

And then switching gears to a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Vegitto, who according to that quote would be dozens of times stronger than even that? (Anywhere between 24 and 100x???)

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Odd, I'm starting to feel like it isn't yours. You... do realize there's a difference between addition and multiplication right? You seem like a fairly intelligent fellow, so I'm guessing there must be some kind of miscommunication somewhere along the line here. I'm going to try and spell this out in the most deliberate fashion possible:



4000x SSJ3 Goku (In this case SSJ4 Goku) would be four times stronger than 1000x SSJ Goku (In this case SSJGSSJ Goku). Not thousands of times like you literally just claimed. Again, multiplication not addition.

Gogeta and Vegitto are dozens of times stronger than Goku is. By the same token, hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta and Vegitto would be dozens of times stronger than SSJGSSJ Goku is.

Dozens of times is a hell of a lot more than four times. Not thousands of times less.

Obviously SSJGSSJ=1000x SSJ3 is a random and not necessarily accurate number you've chosen to make a point, but by that chosen number SSJ4 Goku would get murderstomped. Taking up a more humble number, it's more debatable. Yeah, you missed the point again... This definitely isn't your strong suit. No reason to break down such a basic concept any further. At this point you either get it or you don't.

Also, "dozens of times" is just some random opinion you pulled out of your ass--one that cannot be substantiated by anything concrete. In all likelihood, there might be a difference of 'a' dozen times between SSJ3 and SSJG, at max.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Didn't we just agree that we may be talking about multi-100x increase with Freiza, and by extension Goku?

And then switching gears to a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Vegitto, who according to that quote would be dozens of times stronger than even that? (Anywhere between 24 and 100x???) SSJ3 GT Goku was at least 400x> SSJ3 Z Goku. Good luck proving anything else in Z is THAT far beyond SSJ3.

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, "dozens of times" is just some random opinion you pulled out of your ass--one that cannot be substantiated by anything concrete. In all likelihood, there might be a difference of 'a' dozen times between SSJ3 and SSJG, at max.

At this point I feel like you're either trolling or not reading.

Dozens of times refers to the difference between Goku and Gogeta, regardless of SSJG or anything else. And that's not a random number, it's from the GT Perfect Files lol.

Again, I repeat: I am not discussing SSJGSSJ Goku vs SSJ4 Goku. I am discussing a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta vs SSJ4 Goku.



Again, it doesn't need to be.

Because the difference between Goku and Gogeta is far and beyond the difference between SSJ3 and SSJ4 (Dozens of times VS Ten times)

So really, SSJGSSJ doesn't necessarily need to be much more than 100x in the first place; even though it probably is judging from Freiza's transformations.

GT Perfect Files is your reference, eh? The same source that states SSJ2 wasn't used again after the Cell saga(among a few other glaring inconsistencies)..?

Lol, we're done here. If you come up with something reputable, let me know.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Snip-

Frankly the source is unecessary in understanding the concept; Gogeta and Vegitto in SSJ1 have demonstrated the ability to stomp (to varying degrees) characters that SSJ3 Goku couldn't match in Janemba/Super Buu (Gohan).

SSJ3 is 8x stronger than SSJ1, and SSJ3 Goku still demonstrably would get stomped by SSJ1 Vegitto or Gogeta. The concept of Gogeta/Vegitto fusion multipliers being "dozen(s)" is hardly an unreasonable assertion.

Even if the multiplier for the fusion was only a dozen times, which I personally don't quite buy, that's still 3x more than a 4x boost.

In other words, (Super) SSJGSSJ Goku would need to be roughly 300x stronger than (Z) SSJ3 Goku for SSJGSSJ Vegitto to be in SSJ4 Goku's ballpark assuming the minimum multiplier for Vegitto/Gogeta transformation.

Is he, necessarily? No. Is that a feasible number? Possibly, considering:

Base RoF Goku = RoF 4th Form Freiza = (200x)RoF 1st Form Frieza >> SSJ Gohan

Then with both Goku and Freiza powering up to SSJGSSJ and Golden forms respectively, I'd say them being in the ballpark of 300x could legitimately be debated for.

I think you fail to understand that a difference of 'dozens' of times(or even 'a' dozen) doesn't need to exist between characters for the fights to still be laughably one-sided.

Examples:
Vegeta vs. Kiwi
Vegeta vs. Dodoria
Goku vs. Recoome/Burter/Jeice
50% Freeza vs. SSJ Goku
Perfect Cell vs. ASSJ Vegeta
Perfect Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan
Fat Buu vs. SSJ2 Gohan
Super Buu vs. Shin Gohan
Buutenks vs. Shin Gohan
Pure Buu vs. SSJ2 Vegeta
etc. etc.

In each of those examples, no more than a 2-3x difference in power exists, yet they were all completely one-sided shit-stomps. Hell, even Whis is less than 2x Beerus, yet can still KO him with one casual chop.

Point: technically Gogeta could have 'only' been 2x> Janemba, and still owned him just as effortlessly... As an example.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think you fail to understand that a difference of 'dozens' of times(or even 'a' dozen) doesn't need to exist between characters for the fights to still be laughably one-sided.

In each of those examples, no more than a 2-3x difference in power exists, yet they were all completely one-sided shit-stomps

Point: technically Gogeta could have 'only' been 2x> Janemba, and still owned him just as effortlessly... As an example.

Oh, I agree. I'm certainly not saying SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto is dozens of times (or even 'a' dozen times) stronger than Janemba, or Super Buu (Gohan), or even SSJ3 Goku.

Let's use your example of 2-3x for them, just for the purposes of the argument. That's SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto being compared to opponents who were beating up SSJ3 Goku.

In this hypothetical case, Gogeta/Vegitto would be in the same Saiyan form as Goku.

SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto is only 2-3x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but if the playing field is leveled (If Gogeta/Vegitto goes SSJ3, or Goku reverts to SSJ1) then the gap becomes eight times larger. Instead of 2-3x we'd be dealing with 16-24x.

Do you get what I'm saying? Since we're comparing SSJGSSJ Vegitto to SSJGSSJ Goku rather than SSJ1 Vegitto to SSJ3 Goku?

So if Goku was a 10, his SSJ1 would be a 500, and his SSJ3 would be 4000
If Vegitto as a SSJ1 was a 8000-12000(By your 2-3x principle), then his base would be 160-240.

I.E dozen(s) of times higher than Goku's.

In more simple terms, since the post above is a little cluttered:

Base Goku = 10
SSJ3 Goku = 400x Base Goku (4000)
SSJ1 Vegitto = 2-3x SSJ3 Goku (8000-12000)
Base Vegitto = SSJ1 Vegitto/50 (160-240)

Base Vegitto : Base Goku = 16-24 : 1

These obviously aren't exact numbers, just an example to get the concept across.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Oh, I agree. I'm certainly not saying SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto is dozens of times (or even 'a' dozen times) stronger than Janemba, or Super Buu (Gohan), or even SSJ3 Goku.

Let's use your example of 2-3x for them, just for the purposes of the argument. That's SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto being compared to opponents who were beating up SSJ3 Goku.

In this hypothetical case, Gogeta/Vegitto would be in the same Saiyan form as Goku.

SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto is only 2-3x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but if the playing field is leveled (If Gogeta/Vegitto goes SSJ3, or Goku reverts to SSJ1) then the gap becomes eight times larger. Instead of 2-3x we'd be dealing with 16-24x. Okay, that makes a bit more sense. If that's what you've been trying to say all along, then apologies, but I legitimately didn't understand your point.

However, it's hard/impossible to come up with any legitimate means through which to accurately quantify the difference between SSJ3 and SSJG... Which is ultimately what we'd need in order to approximate the theoretical level of a theoretical SSJG Vegetto.
All we know for certain is:
Whis>>Beerus>>SSJG~/>base Goku>>SSJ3.

We also know, based on the "15, 10, 6" scale Toriyama provided, that Whis is 'only' ~33%> Beerus, and Beerus is 'only' ~40%> SSJG/base Goku... And we saw how a battle between all of them went(Beerus utterly dominated Goku, and Whis KO'd Beerus with a casual chop.)

That said, I believe the difference between SSJ3 and SSJG, while still massive, is probably a lot less than most think. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Okay, that makes a bit more sense. If that's what you've been trying to say all along, then apologies, but I legitimately didn't understand your point.

I had a feeling there was a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.



Well, I mean... BoG Base Goku was trading blows with 70% Beerus, and after training with Whis I'd imagine he's a good bit stronger than he was there.

Beerus at the start of the fight with SSJG Goku was going at roughly 50% (Judging from them being evenly matched, and SSJG Goku saying he was going at 80%), and it seemed to me that he was using even less of his power against Goku and the Z-fighters earlier on, despite lolstomping them all.

I wouldn't be surprised if Base RoF Goku could do this to SSJ3 Goku: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OM9AuQwMMvU

Also, I re-iterate that the Frieza example could lead us to some pretty high-end conclusions.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, I mean... BoG Base Goku was trading blows with 70% Beerus, and after training with Whis I'd imagine he's a good bit stronger than he was there. Goku did become a little stronger between BoG and RoF, but he was still weaker than Beerus... That's why Whis said that it would take BSSJG Goku+BSSJG Vegeta to match Beerus.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, I re-iterate that the Frieza example could lead us to some pretty high-end conclusions. I suppose it could, IF we assume the difference between Freeza's forms stayed the same... But for all we know, drawing out ALL of his latent potential(which is what Freeza did when he trained) could have completely altered his forms across the board. His 1st form in RoF could have possessed 70% the power of his 4th form, for example--his control really was that fine-tuned.) /shrug

But IF the difference between his forms stayed the same, then Freeza's Golden form was no more than 3x his 4th form(or 678x his 1st form)--and that is almost certainly a huge overestimation. In all likelihood, his Golden form was only about 2x his 4th form(or ~450x his 1st form.)

Something else to consider is that Golden Freeza was actually more powerful than BSSJG Goku when he was at max power... So even using the hyper-inflated figures above, a theoretical SSJG Vegetto would have to be a minimum of 6-8x> Golden Freeza(which would put him several times above the likes of Beerus and Whis) to even have a shot at contending with SSJ4 Goku.

Is it possible? Anything is possible, I guess. Do I have my doubts? Absolutely.

In case some people forgot, Goku in the Super 17 Saga is much stronger than he was in the Baby Saga. Super Saiyan Goku punched S17 in the gut and sent him flying hundreds of miles away. By contrast, Uub's kick to S17's back didn't even budge him. Uub previously forced Super Baby 2 to get serious during their beam struggle while Goku in that arc couldn't beat Baby Vegeta's weakest form in Super Saiyan 3.

Goku lampshades this by saying Saiyans get stronger the more they fight, which is a concept that existed in the original manga and Toriyama recently brought it up again, saying the only way Goku and Vegeta can get significant power-boosts now is by fighting strong opponents. GT just made the gains completely ridiculous.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku did become a little stronger between BoG and RoF, but he was still weaker than Beerus... That's why Whis said that it would take BSSJG Goku+BSSJG Vegeta to match Beerus.

That still may be going from 60% - >80%, though, which is kinda significant when you have these ultra-high level fighters.



Indeed, that is why this is speculation.



Indeed, but a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Vegetto should be beyond the likes of Beerus and Whis in the same way that SSJ4 Gogeta is beyond the likes of Omega Shenron, right?

And yeah, these numbers may be stretched some, but the point I'm trying to get at is that there's a feasible argument to be made here. Or at least, there may be when Super gets going...

Originally posted by Crimson Dragoon
In case some people forgot, Goku in the Super 17 Saga is much stronger than he was in the Baby Saga. Super Saiyan Goku punched S17 in the gut and sent him flying hundreds of miles away. By contrast, Uub's kick to S17's back didn't even budge him. Uub previously forced Super Baby 2 to get serious during their beam struggle while Goku in that arc couldn't beat Baby Vegeta's weakest form in Super Saiyan 3.

Goku lampshades this by saying Saiyans get stronger the more they fight, which is a concept that existed in the original manga and Toriyama recently brought it up again, saying the only way Goku and Vegeta can get significant power-boosts now is by fighting strong opponents. GT just made the gains completely ridiculous. Indeed. I've made it a point thus far to use n00b SSJ4 Goku as my primary point of comparison, because it's a little easier/clearer to explain his level of power. But yeah, by the Super 17/Shadow Dragon saga(s), SSJ4 Goku was much more powerful than he was during the Baby saga, when he first discovered SSJ4. Hell, judging by the showings you mentioned, one could argue that his power had nearly doubled... Which would make him ~8,000x more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku.

I haven't yet found a reason to start factoring that in, though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That still may be going from 60% - >80%, though, which is kinda significant when you have these ultra-high level fighters. I guess my point is that, while Goku became more powerful between BoG and RoF, we still know that whatever increase he gained was ultimately <40%... So it's not like he's become vastly more powerful. The difference was likely quite marginal.

Especially when we consider that in BoG, SSJG Goku never even used his full power before reverting back to his base level--the most he used was 80%.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Indeed, but a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Vegetto should be beyond the likes of Beerus and Whis in the same way that SSJ4 Gogeta is beyond the likes of Omega Shenron, right? It really depends how significant of a difference you think there was between Vegetto and Boohan, as that would help you estimate the difference between Vegetto and SSJ3. But again: I don't think the difference was nearly as high as I've seen some claim. /shrug

It's really all a matter of personal opinion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And yeah, these numbers may be stretched some, but the point I'm trying to get at is that there's a feasible argument to be made here. Or at least, there may be when Super gets going... If you high-ball the estimates, then yeah, there's an argument to be made that a theoretical SSJG Vegetto can contend with n00b SSJ4 Goku. As was mentioned above, though: peak SSJ4 is an entirely different animal.

Ah, yeah.



There's also the Gogeta/Janemba comparison which is easier, though I guess that's not canon.



Then we are agreed.

Vegeta must have been about early Goku SSJ4 level, I'm thinking. If not less.

Didn't last long at all against Nuova, and Vegeta claimed he wasn't even trying.

I kind of like that Vegeta needed the blutze wave generator to transform every time, though. Unlike how RoF has him going SSJ God at will just like Goku. Made Goku's SSJ4 unique. (And people say Vegeta didn't earn his SSJ4 because of it, but Toriyama once said something about Saiyans bodies rejecting their tails when they reach a certain age, so really Goku's the artifical SSJ4 here thanks to that youth wish..)

Originally posted by cdtm
Vegeta must have been about early Goku SSJ4 level, I'm thinking. If not less.

Didn't last long at all against Nuova, and Vegeta claimed he wasn't even trying.

The thing is Vegeta still had to have some rough parity with limits surpassed SSJ4 Goku to be able to fuse with him, and there's nothing indicating Goku lowered his power-level drastically to match his.

There's also the fact that Nuova's hits didn't really hurt Vegeta and Nuova's specialized in speed. Plus he was being beaten up by Omega beforehand and Trunks mentioned fusion took up a great deal of their ki.

Vegito stomps......

welp sine kibito kai is nomore gt officially is nonexistent therefore gogeta sssj4 no longer is a factor.... vegeto wins

That's terrible logic. SSJG Vegito doesn't exist either.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's terrible logic. SSJG Vegito doesn't exist either.


oooh wow i never knew that (sarcasm)

So yeah....

Even SSG Goku shit stomps.

yup ^

It looks like it.

SSG shit stomp

It feels good to see SSG superior to that stupid GT multiplier crap. No more of those stupid debates.

Gogeta will never show his face again.

I hope he does ha

Yeah, in light of ep.12, obviously SSJG Vegetto wins.

...I just hope you guys aren't going to start bumping every SSJG-related thread now, just to wank feats that didn't even exist when the threads were originally created. That would be extremely childish. srsly

I enjoy debating with you guys. No need to bring those threads back. That would just make things hostle and there is no need for that.

And true. A lot of the debating then was on theories / small amount of showings

Waiting patienty for Gogeta to show up.