Who is the best in each of the seven styles?

Lord Stark

Originally posted by Sinious
Could he compete with him in any of them other than Ataru though? And I personally think that the spot Yoda stood on helped him fight better as it neutralized the height disadvantage. Originally posted by NewGuy01
And it also completely restricted Sidious' mobility and not Yoda's due to the podium's size. thumb up

Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah I'm not sure why people are so eager to place Yoda above Sidious as a duelist.

You all do realize that Sidious retreated to the podium to gain an advantage right. Its pretty clear Yoda was forcing him on the retreat even before he disarmed him. If anything evidence suggests Sidious chose that arena because it granted him an advantage.

FreshestSlice

Who wouldn't choose an area that would give them an advantage? Yoda's lower center of gravity will put anyone he faces at a severe disadvantage, regardless of their skill with a lightsaber. You need an advantage to fight him.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Lord Stark
If anything evidence suggests Sidious chose that arena because it granted him an advantage.
That was more for the Force advantage (all those Senate pods) - not necessary a lightsaber advantage, IMO.

|King Joker|

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Form I: Kit Fisto
Form II: Count Dooku
Form III: Obi-Wan Kenobi
Form IV: Yoda
Form V: Anakin Skywalker
Form VI: Revan
Form VII: Mace Windu
Overall: Darth Sidious thumb up

Nephthys

Form I: Kas'im
Form II: Kas'im
Form III: Kas'im
Form IV: Kas'im
Form V: Kas'im
Form VI: Kas'im
Form VII: Kas'im
Overall: Tulak Hord

Sinious

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You all do realize that Sidious retreated to the podium to gain an advantage right. Its pretty clear Yoda was forcing him on the retreat even before he disarmed him. If anything evidence suggests Sidious chose that arena because it granted him an advantage.

For various reasons(some of them mentioned above) that does not indicate that Sidious went up there to gain advantage. Besides, what advantage could he have there?

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah I'm not sure why people are so eager to place Yoda above Sidious as a duelist.

Not sure why people are quick to place Sidious above Yoda either.

Sinious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not sure why people are quick to place Sidious above Yoda either.
The quality, quantity and consistency of his saber feats exceed Yoda's. Though I'm not saying Yoda is outright inferior as a combatant.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Sinious
The quality, quantity and consistency of his saber feats exceed Yoda's.

Expand please so I can counter this idea that seems to be going around lately.

FreshestSlice

I think we've all seen enough, "Yoda has fought Dooku and is better than Mace who defeated Sidious," for a lifetime.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I think we've all seen enough, "Yoda has fought Dooku and is better than Mace who defeated Sidious," for a lifetime.

So why just jump to the conclusion that Sidious is better?

There's no point in comparing much lesser opponents like Tiin/Kolar/Fisto or Maul/Opress because Yoda's also Vastly above them.

It's the top opponents that matter: Dooku, Windu and of course the Yoda vs Sidious Ultimate. (There's also the dream version which also had them pretty equal).

Sinious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Expand please so I can counter this idea that seems to be going around lately.

What is there to expand? Maul+Savage pwnage, speed blitzing council members etc.

Every time Sidious fought someone, he performed on the same level where Yoda falls short in quantity and consistency as he didn't perform that well against Dooku(though I'm willing to agree he was holding back to a degree) and doesn't really have that many saber feats.

I'm not saying that Sidious would outright defeat him in a duel. Only that he has more impressive showings and mastery of the forms.

Also this:

Originally posted by ILS
"Outmatched, Yoda retreats and waits to train a new champion to lead the fight against evil."

"Though Yoda is a tough combatant, the Emperor uses his Sith powers to release lightning bolts and hurl floating platforms at his foe. Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa."

"Yoda tries to stop Palpatine, the new Emperor, from taking control. He loses and barely escapes with his life."

Ultimate Star Wars, pages 52-53, Yoda's entry.

Not seeing much room for debate here. It's a canon, out of universe source, authority that transcends even that of the all-knowing Filoni.

If your argument is that you're now going to neglect sources like this in favour of looking solely at the movie, then proceed also to stop debating any form of Star Wars media outside of just the movies, otherwise you'd be presenting yourself as a selective hypocrite. smokin'

ILS

Well to be fair, Yoda did pretty easily outskill Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba at the same time while barely moving and not using a lightsaber. Matches up nicely with Sheev stomping the B-Team with an element of surprise.

Having said that I find Sheev's humiliation of Maul and Savage simultaneously, and the general description of his fighting style, to be superior to Yoda's fight with Dooku and the way he fights in general. Only very slightly.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Sinious
What is there to expand? Maul+Savage pwnage, speed blitzing council members etc.

All those are so vastly inferior to Yoda it's not even funny.

That's like me saying Yoda's force powers > Sidious's because Yoda instantly froze and disarmed Ventress at will.

But again all these opponents are so vastly below Yoda and Sidious it proves nothing.

The more relevant fights are Yoda vs Dooku, Mace vs Sidious and Ultimately Yoda vs Sidious.

Originally posted by Sinious
Every time Sidious fought someone, he performed on the same level where Yoda falls short in quantity and consistency as he didn't perform that well against Dooku(though I'm willing to agree he was holding back to a degree) and doesn't really have that many saber feats.

Dooku wasn't even in Saber reach when Sidious choked him. Dooku wasn't even in a fight with him. Yoda never once even attacked Dooku with Tk. And we've never seen Dooku in a pure fencing match against Sidious.

So try again with your "Every time Sidious fought someone, he performed on the same level where Yoda falls short in quantity and consistency".

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm not saying that Sidious would outright defeat him in a duel. Only that he has more impressive showings and mastery of the forms.

You've yet to point out even 1 superior dueling feat.

Originally posted by Sinious
Also this:

You mean from the fight where Yoda disarmed Sidious in Sabers?

Yeah, no, try again.

NewGuy01

Nick Gillard seems to think Palpatine is the best, tbh.

Stigma

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Kit Fisto

Count Dooku

Obi Wan Kenobi

Yoda

Anakin Skywalker

Exar Kun

Darth Sidious for Juyo/ Windu for Vaapad

Overall: Luke Skywalker
I agree with that thumb up

Sinious

Originally posted by ILS
Well to be fair, Yoda did pretty easily outskill Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba at the same time while barely moving and not using a lightsaber. Matches up nicely with Sheev stomping the B-Team with an element of surprise.

Having said that I find Sheev's humiliation of Maul and Savage simultaneously, and the general description of his fighting style, to be superior to Yoda's fight with Dooku and the way he fights in general. Only very slightly.

I agree with everything said here. thumb up

Sinious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
All those are so vastly inferior to Yoda it's not even funny.

That's like me saying Yoda's force powers > Sidious's because Yoda instantly froze and disarmed Ventress at will.

But again all these opponents are so vastly below Yoda and Sidious it proves nothing.

The more relevant fights are Yoda vs Dooku, Mace vs Sidious and Ultimately Yoda vs Sidious.

I was giving examples to show consistency. I never said those feats by them selves prove Sidious > Yoda. Should Sidious fail to defeat someone who is inferior to Ventress on equal ground though, I'll consider that as a valid argument.

Who cares about Sidious choking Dooku? I never even mentioned that. erm

We know that Maul and Dooku aren't far apart from each other as duelists. We can compare Yoda's performance against Dooku to Sidious' performance against Maul+Savage.

In an advantageous spot. And don't say Sidious chose to fight there cause its already been explained to you that it could be for any reason that Sidious chose to move to that spot(most likely to heighten the ground they're fighting on so he/they could use the entire room).

juyomaster34

Mace Windu,Juyo /Vaapad
Sidious,Juyo,Niman
Yoda,switching from Ataru to any of the Seven styles.
Obi Wan Kenobi,Soresu,Ataru,Shii Cho, Jar 'kai,Sokan.

Anakin/Vader,Shien/Djem So, Juyo (Vader)
Lucien Draay, Shii Cho

Sorry guys, Lucien Draay is a better Shii Cho Master than Kit Fisto.

Lord Stark

Originally posted by Sinious
For various reasons(some of them mentioned above) that does not indicate that Sidious went up there to gain advantage. Besides, what advantage could he have there?

Using his strength to force Yoda off? Cleaving off one of his legs because he has to jump around and maneuver more. The point is Yoda has Sidious on the retreat the entirety of the lightsaber duel portion. If he thought he could defeat Yoda in his office, which is about as neutral as neutral gets he would have. Instead he attempts to retreat from the office not once but twice. Your opinion that Sidious wouldn't get beaten in an sabers match is contradicted by Sidious himself's action to withdraw...twice.

I think Sidious and Yoda are equals, but I also think Sidious needs his preferred form Jar'Kai in order to win. Otherwise its in Yoda's favor.

EmperorSidious2

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Using his strength to force Yoda off? Cleaving off one of his legs because he has to jump around and maneuver more. The point is Yoda has Sidious on the retreat the entirety of the lightsaber duel portion. If he thought he could defeat Yoda in his office, which is about as neutral as neutral gets he would have. Instead he attempts to retreat from the office not once but twice. Your opinion that Sidious wouldn't get beaten in an sabers match is contradicted by Sidious himself's action to withdraw...twice.

Really my thing is the two are equals in sabers as really Sidious was able to match yoda even when in a disadvantaged spot. He couldn't use his speed the way he wanted to. Also yoda did not disarm him of his saber he forced him to drop it as he put a lot of pressure on him. It doesn't say he disarmed him of his saber.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So why just jump to the conclusion that Sidious is better?
I don't think people just jump to the conclusion that Sidious is. They used the same reasoning you do to think Yoda is better, or equal, or whatever. It's just as logical a conclusion.

Stigma

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Using his strength to force Yoda off? Cleaving off one of his legs because he has to jump around and maneuver more. The point is Yoda has Sidious on the retreat the entirety of the lightsaber duel portion. If he thought he could defeat Yoda in his office, which is about as neutral as neutral gets he would have. Instead he attempts to retreat from the office not once but twice. Your opinion that Sidious wouldn't get beaten in an sabers match is contradicted by Sidious himself's action to withdraw...twice.

I think Sidious and Yoda are equals, but I also think Sidious needs his preferred form Jar'Kai in order to win. Otherwise its in Yoda's favor.
thumb up

Nice catch, though. This feat is easily on pair with, if not exceeding, Sidious beating the B-team thumb up

Stigma

One more thing.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Really my thing is the two are equals in sabers as really Sidious was able to match yoda even when in a disadvantaged spot. He couldn't use his speed the way he wanted to. Also yoda did not disarm him of his saber he forced him to drop it as he put a lot of pressure on him. It doesn't say he disarmed him of his saber.
Well, forcing Sidious to drop the saber by putting pressure on him IN A SABER FIGHT, seems to me to clearly count as disarming him in a saber fight.

Also, it was Sidious who chose the podium, so he must have thought it was the best option.
OR
As seen in the movie, it was Yoda who forced Sidious while they were on the floor in the office to go for the podium.

Either way, Yoda was pressing Sidious on a neutral ground in a saber fight.

ILS

Originally posted by Stigma
Nice catch, though. This feat is easily on pair with, if not exceeding, Sidious beating the B-team thumb up

I get the sense you're a member of the little green goblin brigade. smokin'

Stigma

Originally posted by ILS
I get the sense you're a member of the little green goblin brigade. smokin'

Green goblin brigade. That's catchy big grin

Lord Stark

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Really my thing is the two are equals in sabers as really Sidious was able to match yoda even when in a disadvantaged spot. He couldn't use his speed the way he wanted to. Also yoda did not disarm him of his saber he forced him to drop it as he put a lot of pressure on him. It doesn't say he disarmed him of his saber.

Lol that is literally the definition of disarming bro. Forcing someone to drop their weapon is disarming. And I am simply suggesting that Sidious needs to use his preferred form of lightsaber combat to defeat Yoda. Why is that so hard to understand? If the roles were reversed and Yoda couldn't use Ataru, I wouldn't be arguing that Sidious legit disarmed him.

Originally posted by Stigma
thumb up

As I recall Yoda humiliated them, really. thumb up

Nice catch, though. This feat is easily on pair with, if not exceeding, Sidious beating the B-team thumb up

Easily exceeding imo. Legends Depa is capable of pressing Mace Windu in a duel, and Plo Koon is superior to any member of the B-Team. If Yoda had a saber he'd have wrecked them all.

The_Tempest

Legends!Depa was "capable of pressing Mace" more than 10 years after that feat occurred. There's no evidence that she was that good at the time of that demonstration.

Calm down.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Sinious

We know that Maul and Dooku aren't far apart from each other as duelists.

I'm not sure we know that.

Originally posted by Sinious
We can compare Yoda's performance against Dooku to Sidious' performance against Maul+Savage.

Kind of kind of Iffy ABC Logic there tbh. If you want to go down that road then Yoda vs Dooku would be better compared to Sidious vs Windu.

Aside from that this "consistency" argument against opponents which are vastly inferior to both Yoda and Sidious are kind of pointless to bring up, unless Yoda has a lower performance against similar level opponents. Simply because Yoda and Sidious have fought each other, and there was no noticeable difference between the 2 in either Sabers or Force Powers (and I'm saying that despite the fact that Yoda most likely disarmed Sidious of his weapon in the Saber match up).

Lord Stark

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Legends!Depa was "capable of pressing Mace" more than 10 years after that feat occurred. There's no evidence that she was that good at the time of that demonstration.

Calm down.

Gonna go ahead and say nope on that one. Considering that Depa, Sora and Mace had already created Vaapad by that point. There's no evidence of a power gap between TPM Mace and AOTCs Mace...the same would be true for Depa.

Stigma

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Legends!Depa was "capable of pressing Mace" more than 10 years after that feat occurred. There's no evidence that she was that good at the time of that demonstration.
Still Koon and Saesee are among the best, and Depa is solid at least at that time.

Not to mention Yoda was unarmed and he hardly moved during the assault, yet still he humiliated them.

Either way, I'd say the intent was clear: To demonstrate how well beyond these Jedi is Yoda. Much like in RotS the demonstration was how well beyond B-team is Sheev.

Now, what we need to agree is that both feats are in the same ballpark.

As I said before RotS Yoda and RotS Sidious are virtually equals. As in, as close to equals as it gets in SW.

My personal preference to look at it is that Yoda is a tiny bit better duelist (no pun intended), while Sidious is a tiny bit better Force user. Sidious tactical awareness might be better too, imho.

Stigma

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Gonna go ahead and say nope on that one. Considering that Depa, Sora and Mace had already created Vaapad by that point. There's no evidence of a power gap between TPM Mace and AOTCs Mace...the same would be true for Depa.

First, where is it said that Depa co-created Vaapad with Mace? Second, inferring that a decade of continued training and study would not result in a shift in skill is asinine.

Lord Stark

Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, where is it said that Depa co-created Vaapad with Mace? Second, inferring that a decade of continued training and study would not result in a shift in skill is asinine.
Yeah, it doesn't my bad. My point still stands though that there's no evidence Depa suddenly became more martial. Jedi aren't Sith Lords, they don't spend all their time trying to increase their powa levels. There's no proof she spent all that time honing her lightsaber skills.

Case in point:
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/darth/images/9/94/Obi-wan_headshot.jpg

Additional examples include Yoda and Sidious himself. Study of the force does not always= increased Saber skills. If it did Vitiate would have better lightsaber skills than the Zett Jukasta-level swordsmanship he's displayed.

EmperorSidious2

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol that is literally the definition of disarming bro. Forcing someone to drop their weapon is disarming. And I am simply suggesting that Sidious needs to use his preferred form of lightsaber combat to defeat Yoda. Why is that so hard to understand? If the roles were reversed and Yoda couldn't use Ataru, I wouldn't be arguing that Sidious legit disarmed him.

Easily exceeding imo. Legends Depa is capable of pressing Mace Windu in a duel, and Plo Koon is superior to any member of the B-Team. If Yoda had a saber he'd have wrecked them all.

It also has to do with the location they were in as well as Sidious wasn't able to use his force speed as well as it were in more of an open place such as when he fought maul and opress or where yoda fought Dooku. Somewhere with open space that couldnt hamper Sidious movements.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Stigma

As I said before RotS Yoda and RotS Sidious are virtually equals. As in, as close to equals as it gets in SW.

My personal preference to look at it is that Yoda is a tiny bit better duelist (no pun intended), while Sidious is a tiny bit better Force user.

thumb up

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It also has to do with the location they were in as well as Sidious wasn't able to use his force speed as well as it were in more of an open place such as when he fought maul and opress or where yoda fought Dooku. Somewhere with open space that couldnt hamper Sidious movements.

Yoda and Sidious fought in a very open space. The Senate room. Unlike where Sidious fought Mace, that was definitely a more cramped environment, and Sidious was likely hampered further by having to blitz Tiin/Kolar/Fisto first.

Not to mention Sidious vs Yoda began on ground level, then went onto the Senate Pod, which was seemingly Sidious's own choice.

Sinious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'm not sure we know that.

Dooku is better but they're relatively close. More importantly, Maul is no Ventress; with Savage's aid, he could defeat Dooku imo. So its more fair to compare Savage+Maul to Dooku I guess.

With the amp he got in ROTS, Windu would s**t on Dooku. thumb up

You're missing the point. I didn't say Sidious defeated Yoda in sabers in ROTS. Imo, overall it was too close to consider it a showing of superiority for both sides. Sidious won in the grand scheme of things and also had the upper hand in their fight when it ended. That is not the discussion though. My belief is that(like ILS pointed out) the way Sidious' mastery is described is more impressive as a whole and like you just pointed out, he would defeat Yoda in different circumstances(Where both knew they'd fight each other before hand and had the chance to use whatever form they want on plain neutral ground).

carthage

Is everyone just going to ignore the quotes ILS posted the other day about Yoda being outmatched and having barely escaped with his life in their duel in ROTS? They're near equals and close in skill, but that fight and the quotes he posted made it clear Sidious is Yoda's superior in skill and power.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Sinious
Dooku is better but they're relatively close. More importantly, Maul is no Ventress; with Savage's aid, he could defeat Dooku imo. So its more fair to compare Savage+Maul to Dooku I guess.

Not the same thing to take out 2 lesser opponents than 1 stronger opponent IMO. That's why I think Dooku/Mace is a better comparison.

Originally posted by Sinious
With the amp he got in ROTS, Windu would s**t on Dooku. thumb up

Meh. I still don't buy the "Amp". But in any case Windu was actually fighting as Sidious's equal, and even beat him. Dock fought off Yoda, but was clearly not his equal.

Originally posted by Sinious
You're missing the point. I didn't say Sidious defeated Yoda in sabers in ROTS. Imo, overall it was too close to consider it a showing of superiority for both sides. Sidious won in the grand scheme of things and also had the upper hand in their fight when it ended.

I'm good with all this

thumb up

Originally posted by Sinious
That is not the discussion though. My belief is that(like ILS pointed out) the way Sidious' mastery is described is more impressive as a whole

Depends how that relates to combat though in comparison to Yoda (which we've basically seen).

Originally posted by Sinious
and like you just pointed out, he would defeat Yoda in different circumstances(Where both knew they'd fight each other before hand and had the chance to use whatever form they want on plain neutral ground).

I've argued the Official Site points out that Jar Kai is Sidious's preferred form, and a style he didn't get to Utilise against Yoda.

Still I wouldn't expect that to make more than a slight difference. They'd still be more or less equals Imo, and nothing suggests otherwise Imho.

Sidious's possible edge in Force Powers also won't really be a deciding fact Imho.

Fact is fight we were given wasn't even decided by Sabers. And it was pretty equal until Yoda fell (situational). Then Yoda escaped presumably because he had no fight left in him. But even then, Sidious wasn't exactly attempting to pursue his advantage, presumably because he didn't have much left in him either.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by carthage
Is everyone just going to ignore the quotes ILS posted the other day about Yoda being outmatched and having barely escaped with his life in their duel in ROTS? They're near equals and close in skill, but that fight and the quotes he posted made it clear Sidious is Yoda's superior in skill and power.

I've been over this. Yoda escaped, even though Sidious wasn't chasing him. If it was an almost stalemate, then obviously Yoda has more to loose by hanging around.

Yoda escaped with his life, but I'd argue Sidious just barely made it out of that fight alive as well, and the quote doesn't contradict that.

Lastly the quote says nothing about "Skill" or "Power". In fact if anything Yoda won the Saber duel according to the ROTS Script.

Sidious's biggest advantage in that fight came when Yoda fell off the Senate Pod. That was the only point in the whole fight where Yoda may have been "outmatched." And that was a situational fall.

I'll explain here again what I explained to ILS. Quotes supplement the films, they don't replace them. And context isn't thrown out of the window when it comes to quotes either.

Nai

Originally posted by Sinious
For various reasons(some of them mentioned above) that does not indicate that Sidious went up there to gain advantage. Besides, what advantage could he have there?

Click me.

Read the stuff under the third quote. Explains the difficulties of fighting Yoda on equal ground and the advantage Sidious gained from moving to the podium. And you can even check it at home, if you're inclined to do so.

Sinious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not the same thing to take out 2 lesser opponents than 1 stronger opponent IMO. That's why I think Dooku/Mace is a better comparison.

I would agree that this is relevant if Dooku the superior one could also defeat those 2 inferior beings.

Maybe its because you also didn't buy the novel and read it. wink

Besides, I think its pretty clear Sidious wanted those people there and therefor its really hard to say "Windu beat him". The scene is more complicated than that.

Well since they're so close I felt like it should matter. Especially in this thread cause its not about who would win but who is better in general.

thumb up

I think Sidious didn't pursue his advantage because he would lose the advantageous position he was in if he jumped down and kept on fighting. Also, he had the galaxy to lose where Yoda had nothing to lose if he had died there.

Sinious

Originally posted by Nai
Click me.

Read the stuff under the third quote. Explains the difficulties of fighting Yoda on equal ground and the advantage Sidious gained from moving to the podium. And you can even check it at home, if you're inclined to do so.

I will read it in the near future and reply accordingly.

NewGuy01

The fact remains that Sidious is an extremely mobile fighter. On the podium he's practically immobilized whereas because of his size, Yoda still has the advantage of maneuverability.

On that note, there is a difference between what happened to Sidious and being generically disarmed. Sidious was forced over the edge by Yoda's assault and dropped the lightsaber--effectively disarming him. That worked fine, but the issue is that this would never happen in a standard environment, where Sidious could give ground unrestricted by the small podium.

Odds are Sidious moved to the podium for the single purpose of moving the fight to the vast upper level.

Lord Stark

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It also has to do with the location they were in as well as Sidious wasn't able to use his force speed as well as it were in more of an open place such as when he fought maul and opress or where yoda fought Dooku. Somewhere with open space that couldnt hamper Sidious movements.

Sidious retreated from an environment like that. The point still stands that Sidious chose the battlefield and still ended up disarmed. And the argument that Sidious had some sort of disadvantage in the pod is...pretty weak.

EmperorSidious2

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sidious retreated from an environment like that. The point still stands that Sidious chose the battlefield and still ended up disarmed. And the argument that Sidious had some sort of disadvantage in the pod is...pretty weak.

I don't see how it's weak when the argument is supported by proof that shows that in a normal battle Sidious would have more room to use his force augmentation than in a better way. Laos he retreated to the pod well that could mean a number of things on why he retreated. One and the most likely reason is a better use of force powers due to all the pods. Being in his office he wouldn't have much to throw around while in the senate room he has hundreds of pods to throw around and can get creative with the battle ground. So with that I retain the notion that Sidious and yoda are equals in lightsabers and the force.

Revanchiste

Chii SHo.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Sinious

I think Sidious didn't pursue his advantage because he would lose the advantageous position he was in if he jumped down and kept on fighting.

I mean that would be an effective stalemate. If neither thinks it's wise to pursue the fight further, and if both have lost their Sabers and both expended a lot of energy in the fight.

But like I keep saying in that scenario a Stalemate was a Victory for Sidious because a stalemate means he gets to remain Emperor.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I don't see how it's weak when the argument is supported by proof that shows that in a normal battle Sidious would have more room to use his force augmentation than in a better way. Laos he retreated to the pod well that could mean a number of things on why he retreated. One and the most likely reason is a better use of force powers due to all the pods. Being in his office he wouldn't have much to throw around while in the senate room he has hundreds of pods to throw around and can get creative with the battle ground.

Fact remains they fought in both environments. First on ground level in a more closed environment. Then on the Senate Pod in a more open Environment. So it's kind of stretching saying Sidious was disadvantaged in Sabers, when they fought on different levels, and Sidious chose the second environment himself.

Also all this "Sidious was cramped on the Pod," stuff.. First, if it was such a big disadvantage he wouldn't have gone there. Second, what was stopping him leaping from Pod to Pod if he was getting restricted?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So with that I retain the notion that Sidious and yoda are equals in lightsabers and the force.

Well our conclusions are the same anyway. At most there will be slight differences between them in either category, which explains the result.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Sinious
I would agree that this is relevant if Dooku the superior one could also defeat those 2 inferior beings.

Oh I forgot to address this.

You see 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 like that. Dooku would be a bigger challenge to Sidious than Maul+Opress because he's powerful enough to challenge Sidious, whilst neither Maul or Opress are.

Similarly Maul + Opress can defeat Dooku, because either one is powerful enough to challenge Dooku, so both of them combined would look pretty dim for the Count.

Revanchiste

It you want the best one no matter what, just pick chii cho....

Kreia did answer thisquestion...

juyomaster34

In the oplnion of a you tube blogger on vs battle between Yoda vs Mace Windu,
Yoda would in his opinion start off using what he has relying on for centuries. what works for him.

When this method failed him,Yoda wasn't able to adapt.
I agree with Palpatine moving the battle to his choosing.
Thus Maul did the same to Qui Gon Jin and Obi Wan.

Obi Wan did the same thing with Darth Vader.
Both men had the High ground.

Obi wan crippled Anakin.
Yoda lost the High Ground via absorbing Sidious's Force lightning which closely resembles the duel between Galen vs Palpatine that ended in a similar Force explosion.

Which Killed Galen(questionable if not debatable )
Yoda survives by barely hanging onto the pod with no energy or Force reserves left.
Thus falling,unbelievingly loosing the High Ground.

It would be foolish and stupid to leap down from the high ground (your advantage ) to pursue a fallen and defeated enemy who knew he failed and admitted defeat.
Thus choosing exile.

Sidious was also tired no energy or Force reserves left, knew he had won.
Instead of himself going after Yoda,he sent the Clones.

His office was no advantage for him against Mace which truly showed how effective Vaapad's
Saber style and Force immersion was. In close quarters. In cramped space.

Which IMHO surprised the dark lord himself.
Force lightning has its limits,too.
Palpatine was tired and injured after his first attempt.
Due to Vaapad's superconducting loop yet again.

With Anakin's timely intervention gave him enough time to replenish his Force reserves by feeding on Anakin's fear of loosing him and Pade'me.
.
Which was also one of the key factors to Mace's amp,besides his inner darkness,the loss of his councilmen,Palpatine's fury and Anakin's fears.

An amp which can be duplicated again through an infinite amount of possibilities. The amp of that magnetude may not,but one similar not as powerful but powerful enough to be legendary among Vaapad's feats.
example,dark side nexus,a hostile hostage situation with either padawan, master,or close ally.friend.

whether its Dooku or whoever.With the same scenario as I mentioned in the above paragraph.
For the record Dooku can't conceal his Force use or dark side affinity from Vaapad.
Imo it's Mace's compassion for Dooku and Yoda,that will always imho lead to a stalemate.

Or Dooku retreating due to Vaapad's overwhelming strkes and adaptability.
If bridled anger,Vaapad maybe,why retreat from every fight to test Makashi's blade to blade superiority? hmm?

Sparring does not count,it's not a real fight.
I applaud Makashi's superiority,Dooku has my utmost respect as the true champion and Master of Makashi. An all out fight with a Master who created a style that you know little about by out dueling Sora Bulq does not give you that same advantage.

Bulq devolved back to Juyo imho. Vaapad Mastered him.
Don't get me wrong Juyo is just as powerful as Makashi if it was in the right hands of a true Juyo
Master who understood Makashi's strengths and weaknesses.

Improvisation,Adaptability,and understanding your enemy is the only way
at besting him and his chosen style.
Example; Miyamoto Musashi
Sun Tzu
Machiavelli
my personal favorites.
It is my honest belief that Mace will defeat himself (stalemate) against Dooku out of respect for Yoda's Master/Padawan relationship and his personal friendship with them.

Sinious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mean that would be an effective stalemate. If neither thinks it's wise to pursue the fight further, and if both have lost their Sabers and both expended a lot of energy in the fight.

But like I keep saying in that scenario a Stalemate was a Victory for Sidious because a stalemate means he gets to remain Emperor.

Well obviously it made Sidious rethink about being so cocky especially since he had so much to lose had he died there. And like you said, he already won since a stalemate was a victory for him so it was on Yoda to go back up and try again. Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh I forgot to address this.

You see 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 like that. Dooku would be a bigger challenge to Sidious than Maul+Opress because he's powerful enough to challenge Sidious, whilst neither Maul or Opress are.

Similarly Maul + Opress can defeat Dooku, because either one is powerful enough to challenge Dooku, so both of them combined would look pretty dim for the Count. Even if I agreed with what you say, the difference in Yoda and Sidious' performances against their opponents is way too big to be justified with that.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Sinious
Well obviously it made Sidious rethink about being so cocky especially since he had so much to lose had he died there. And like you said, he already won since a stalemate was a victory for him so it was on Yoda to go back up and try again.

Not really. Sidious wanted Yoda dead as well, which is why he ordered his troops to keep looking for Yoda.

Sidious having more to lose by carrying on the fight, just shows he still wasn't confident of a victory, and in fact still thought he could lose.

But yeah, Sidious was certainly happier with a Stalemate than Yoda. But Ideally he wanted Yoda dead.

Stigma

For Yoda, stalemate was really a loss.

For Sidious, stalemate was really a victory.

EmperorSidious2

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mean that would be an effective stalemate. If neither thinks it's wise to pursue the fight further, and if both have lost their Sabers and both expended a lot of energy in the fight.

But like I keep saying in that scenario a Stalemate was a Victory for Sidious because a stalemate means he gets to remain Emperor.

Fact remains they fought in both environments. First on ground level in a more closed environment. Then on the Senate Pod in a more open Environment. So it's kind of stretching saying Sidious was disadvantaged in Sabers, when they fought on different levels, and Sidious chose the second environment himself.

Also all this "Sidious was cramped on the Pod," stuff.. First, if it was such a big disadvantage he wouldn't have gone there. Second, what was stopping him leaping from Pod to Pod if he was getting restricted?

Well our conclusions are the same anyway. At most there will be slight differences between them in either category, which explains the result.

He really could have chose that due to wanting to gain a force advantage. Also what stopped him form leaping from pod to pod Amy e the fact that Yoda had him cramped in a pod so really he couldn't go anywhere for that specific time frame.

Really I believe they are equals but if you had to twist my arm and hold a gun up to my head I would say sidious is the better force weilder while Yoda is the better lightsaber duelist each by this time not by much.