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Or is it force indoctrination for whatever country you are in? In America, more and more kids are being homeschooled and those children developed and move through grades much faster then public and private schools.

Would you choose homeschool or mainstream public or private for your kids?


https://www.home-school.com/images/hs-ps/1-homeschool-domination.jpg

https://www.home-school.com/images/hs-ps/2-homeschooling-by-the-numbers.jpg

I like how they made Ned Flanders the homeschool dad, pretty accurate.


State schools are necessary, not everyone can be homeschooled, and a lot of parents are not fit to homeschool children anyways. I am in favour of private options as long as they have to adhere to certain minimum requirements. And while state schools may be in need of a lot of reform and increased funding, they are still a necessary part of societies staying stable.

I can think of little more indoctrinating than taking children away from school and leaving them purely to the influence of the household. School has an essential value in exposing people to ideas.

The problem is that school isn't just about learning things from textbooks. It is about learning to socialize with other people who are not your parents.

I agree though that the current way we do things in schools needs to change. Sometimes these schools do not prepare kids enough for college. I can give you one example from myself: in high school I took 4 years of Spanish, I was actually a top student in the classes, always getting an A. I had the same Spanish teacher for every year in high school except my freshmen year, and this left me ill prepared for college.

Why? Because in my first year..was the only year we ever really went over vocabulary. In the following years we covered the more difficult aspects of the language, like learning how to change certain words to fit the tense in which you are speaking(present tense, past tense, etc.) and all that. So I learned all this difficult stuff, but I was never really taught what the words meant very much.

So I get to college and..the class is spoken in nothing but Spanish. We had a workbook that needed to be filled out and you did so by watching this spanish tv show they showed in class(which was obviously also in all spanish) and then you answered questions in the work book. Well, I could not understand 90% of what the teacher said, and likewise the same with the show. I was screwed, and I had taken 4 YEARS of the stuff when most people only take like 2. Then what can I dp? Ask if the teacher could please speak in English because my teacher was shitty?

But it is not just me..a lot of people I have talked to who did a lot of years of spanish say it has almost no practical use. Which is weird considering the percentage of people who speak Spanish in this country. So why do they say that, even though they know vocabulary? Because normally spanish people talk..kind of fast, and in such a way where they really can't even tell what is being said. They found themselves constantly asking people to speak very very slowly so they could understand.

People are graduating who can't even read. Especially in the black communities, this is the current state of the public school system.

One cannot emphasize enough the importance of secondary socialiation.

The situation is pretty bad at a lot of schools but it has to be pretty terrible for home-school to be the better option.

I feel we should not allow people to drop out of school unless they are 18. I also feel that teaching people how to use computers should be standard. My freshmen year at college back in 2005..75% of the class did not know how to do something as simple as sending an email.

Originally posted by krisblaze
One cannot emphasize enough the importance of secondary socialiation.

The situation is pretty bad at a lot of schools but it has to be pretty terrible for home-school to be the better option.

Homeschoolers can be social awkward, but which is better, socially awkward but smart or just stupid?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
People are graduating who can't even read. Especially in the black communities, this is the current state of the public school system.

no, that is the current state of public schools in underclass areas. certainly needs fixing, but no need to exaggerate this into "the public school system has failed". it's just not true.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
People are graduating who can't even read. Especially in the black communities, this is the current state of the public school system.

How is homeschooling any way an answer to this? I am going to be charitable and assume that by 'black communities' you mean 'poor communities'- you honestly think such communities have the right circumstances, facilities and opportunities for homeschooling?

If your contention is that schools turn otherwise capable children into failures, then I very much doubt that is the case.

All homeschooling really does is take kids who would have done well at school anyway and teach them in a more isolated setting.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Homeschoolers can be social awkward, but which is better, socially awkward but smart or just stupid?

Lack of exposure to society and ideas is a primary breeding ground for stupidity.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Homeschoolers can be social awkward, but which is better, socially awkward or stupid?

Which is better..for who? Society or the individual person. Sure society benefits from smart people. But the individual does not benefit from being socially awkward.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
no, that is the current state of public schools in underclass areas. certainly needs fixing, but no need to exaggerate this into "the public school system has failed". it's just not true.

I don't think its failed, just comparing the two.

You're not making any sort of valid comparison though. Take your chart above- does it actually compare like for like at any point?

Homeschooling is the preserve of the middle class privileged set- like I say, the type of kids who do well at school in any case. Comparing the achievements of a relatively elite subsection against that of the entirety of society is a false comparison.

I feel like we need more training in order for people to become teachers. I am not saying this is all the teachers fault, but I know for a fact that some just do not know how to deal with certain types of kids.

That and higher pay for teachers.

Originally posted by Surtur
Which is better..for who? Society or the individual person. Sure society benefits from smart people. But the individual does not benefit from being socially awkward.


If a kid grows up in a neighbor hood and his two neighbors are in public school but he is in homeschool. But this still play together after school, whats the difference really?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
If a kid grows up in a neighbor hood and his two neighbors are in public school but he is in private school. But this still play together after school, whats the difference really?

Because merely just "playing together" isn't really socializing to the extent they need.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Homeschoolers can be social awkward, but which is better, socially awkward or stupid?
They're not mutually exclusive.

It also has much great consequences than simply being socially awkward.

If someone hasn't learned how to read by the time they graduate school then you might wonder about other factors than the quality of the school.

I also wonder if there are many parents who have the time and resources to educate their child while living in such a poor neighbourhood that the schools are so bad that they can't even teach their kid how to read by the time they graduate.

Originally posted by krisblaze
They're not mutually exclusive.

It also has much great consequences than simply being socially awkward.

If someone hasn't learned how to read by the time they graduate school then you might wonder about other factors than the quality of the school.

I also wonder if there are many parents who have the time and resources to educate their child while living in such a poor neighbourhood that the schools are so bad that they can't even teach their kid how to read by the time they graduate.

Yes schooling should still exist at home even if the child's primary education is public, I agree, its up to the parents to cement learning.

What if the parents are just not around, or don't care?

Originally posted by Surtur
Because merely just "playing together" isn't really socializing to the extent they need.

Playtime fosters creativity and no rules socialization.

Where is if you in school, you are kind of steered a a direction.

Also homeschool isnt' the way it used to be, where you just sat at home. Now homeschoolers have co op's and have classes with other kids in specified locations set up by parents. So the idea that you are isolated to just your parents is a think of the past.

Then the child is very possibly boned- and this is one of the major issues all public school systems face. It's relatively easy to teach kids who live in comfortable standards. Nearly all the issues in public education come from having to teach society as a whole, with all its issues of poverty, learning difficulties and cultural differences.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Playtime fosters creativity and no rules socialization.

Where is if you in school, you are kind of steered a a direction.

Also homeschool isnt' the way it used to be, where you just sat at home. Now homeschoolers have co op's and have classes with other kids in specified locations set up by parents. So the idea that you are isolated to just your parents is a think of the past.

You are still exceptionally isolated in those circumstances- like I say, homeschooling is the preserve of a particular advantaged middle-class subset. It is isolation from wider society and it is isolation from a broad scope of academic ideas.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I like how they made Ned Flanders the homeschool dad, pretty accurate.


State schools are necessary, not everyone can be homeschooled, and a lot of parents are not fit to homeschool children anyways. I am in favour of private options as long as they have to adhere to certain minimum requirements. And while state schools may be in need of a lot of reform and increased funding, they are still a necessary part of societies staying stable.

Were you educated in public school?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Were you educated in public school?

Partly.

Where was the other part?

Boarding school in the US. And the school of hard knocks.

Why are people graduating and allowed to graduate that can't read, and do you see this a failure and if so, who's fault?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Why are people graduating and allowed to graduate that can't read, and do you see this a failure and if so, who's fault?

People that can't read become very adept at hiding that fact. I think it is a failure. And it is the fault of the system, society, the parents and to some, possibly very small, degree the person themselves.

Originally posted by Bardock42
People that can't read become very adept at hiding that fact. I think it is a failure. And it is the fault of the system, society, the parents and to some, possibly very small, degree the person themselves.

That's a general at fault statement, it should not even be allowed to be this way, and the buck should stop with the school allowing this to happen.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
That's a general at fault statement, it should not even be allowed to be this way, and the buck should stop with the school allowing this to happen.

Okay, sure, so what is the solution?

If you can't read you don't graduate.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
If you can't read you don't graduate.

Hmm, I suppose, I guess what is missing is a component for people who do not want to or can't work in office or academic environments, because even if you can't read you may still have very useful and worthwhile skills in other areas.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Hmm, I suppose, I guess what is missing is a component for people who do not want to or can't work in office or academic environments, because even if you can't read you may still have very useful and worthwhile skills in other areas.

We live in a world and a system where reading is easy and you learn how to do it from a young age, no one is that stupid that they should not be able to read after 12 years of school. Its a failure if its simply not enforced or just overlooked. Even if you are a factory worker or meat packer, you need to know how to read and multiply.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
If you can't read you don't graduate.
The real question is how you get them to read.

My two cents on this thread: as bad as public schools can be, particularly in poor areas, if we didn't have them at all our education standards would be much worse.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The real question is how you get them to read.

I like this idea

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/feb/23/bill-proctor/rep-proctor-says-half-high-school-grads-cant-read-/

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Yes schooling should still exist at home even if the child's primary education is public, I agree, its up to the parents to cement learning.

What if the parents are just not around, or don't care?

Yes then what.

How would they be homeschooled?

The ones who are live in areas with terrible schools aren't the ones who can or do receive homeschooling.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Yes then what.

How would they be homeschooled?

The ones who are live in areas with terrible schools aren't the ones who can or do receive homeschooling.

No obviously if the parents arn't there to cement learning for their kids from a public school they wont be there for homeschool.

I was originally comparing the actual education between the two types of learning.

Brass Tax Question, Which is better learning iyo, regardless of social bullshit talks, who learns more?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
No obviously if the parents arn't there to cement learning for their kids from a public school they wont be there for homeschool.

I was originally comparing the actual education between the two types of learning.

Brass Tax Question, Which is better learning iyo, regardless of social bullshit talks, who learns more?

Okay, I was considering it in more realistic terms. The ones who actually can get homeschooled aren't the ones who necessarily need it/actually benefit from it.

Who learns the most? Depends on the kid and the parents

Having 1 teacher to 1 student is ideal and SHOULD be better, but that isn't always the case. There a couple of things to consider, and that's the lack of group work, presentations, competition and so on. What's worse is that the ones who should in theory fit homeschooling, ie does not like competitions, does poorly in crowds, low social intelligence, are the ones who need it the most.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Okay, I was considering it in more realistic terms. The ones who actually can get homeschooled aren't the ones who necessarily need it/actually benefit from it.

Who learns the most? Depends on the kid and the parents

Having 1 teacher to 1 student is ideal and SHOULD be better, but that isn't always the case. There a couple of things to consider, and that's the lack of group work, presentations, competition and so on. What's worse is that the ones who should in theory fit homeschooling, ie does not like competitions, does poorly in crowds, low social intelligence, are the ones who need it the most.

I addressed this earlier, in cased you missed it.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Playtime fosters creativity and no rules socialization.

Where is if you in school, you are kind of steered a a direction.

Also homeschool isnt' the way it used to be, where you just sat at home. Now homeschoolers have co op's and have classes with other kids in specified locations set up by parents. So the idea that you are isolated to just your parents is a think of the past. They also have access to teachers online.

That might achieve better results

If this was employed on a large scale, it might work. The idea of having to go to a school that looks like a prison needs to change.

Just had a conversation about this with my barber (I didn't even bring it up--he knew I was an English teacher so he started telling me about it). Basically he keeps his daughter at home because he doesn't want her going to any of the local public schools (most of them are kind of dangerous and sketchy), but he doesn't have the time or ability to really give her a full education himself (English isn't even his first language--he's from Egypt) so he mostly relies on a tutor to teach her to read. He says he's going to put her in a public school soon because the tutor is too expensive and his daughter still can't read at the level of her age group. I'm not going to try to point this out as anything more than anecdotal, but I think it illustrates that there aren't really any clearcut alternatives to a public school system, for all its faults.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
If this was employed on a large scale, it might work. The idea of having to go to a school that looks like a prison needs to change.

Being homeschooled is much more of a prison since you're confined to the same building all the time and have the same figures of authority all the time

Actually, how the **** is the world going to go around if every other person is busy teaching their kids?

Originally posted by krisblaze
Being homeschooled is much more of a prison since you're confined to the same building all the time and have the same figures of authority all the time

I kinda went over that, that is a thing of the past being tied down at home.

Moving on

I have 3 friends that are brothers and were homeschooled. I grew up with them. One of them is now a Registered Nurse and does traveling nursing, another owns his own landscaping company, the other works for a large tech company.

I have another friend who I grew up with who went to private school. He has his MBA, he was deans list through his entire undergrad and graduate, he lives at home and works as a cashier at a gym smoothie restaurant.

Something is right with the first three examples, and wrong with the second example.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Actually, how the **** is the world going to go around if every other person is busy teaching their kids?

Many kids like adults can now do online learning as well.

From what I understand, Montessori school is >>> homeschooling and public school, at least in terms of turning out creative if a little socially awkward geniuses.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
From what I understand, Montessori school is >>> homeschooling and public school, at least in terms of turning out creative if a little socially awkward geniuses.

Yes Montessori is good.

If these kids don't need teachers, then why the **** are they graduating high school without learning how to read?

And yeah, Montessori is where the upper crust of norwegian society churns out their little christian sociopaths.

Great school

Originally posted by krisblaze
Actually, how the **** is the world going to go around if every other person is busy teaching their kids?

Originally posted by krisblaze
If these kids don't need teachers, then why the **** are they graduating high school without learning how to read?

Ok I see we have resorted to swearing and cussing when I was having a simple conversation with you.

Yes.

I swear for emphasis.

I really do wonder though. Since most countries have a serious shortage of teachers, and they're mostly teaching kids at 25-30 a piece.

Originally posted by Bardock42
State schools are necessary, not everyone can be homeschooled, and a lot of parents are not fit to homeschool children anyways. I am in favour of private options as long as they have to adhere to certain minimum requirements. And while state schools may be in need of a lot of reform and increased funding, they are still a necessary part of societies staying stable.



Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
People are graduating who can't even read. Especially in the black communities, this is the current state of the public school system.

The answer in these situations isn't home school. The home situations of the most at-risk kids are routinely the worst.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I can think of little more indoctrinating than taking children away from school and leaving them purely to the influence of the household. School has an essential value in exposing people to ideas.



Originally posted by Ushgarak
Homeschooling is the preserve of the middle class privileged set- like I say, the type of kids who do well at school in any case. Comparing the achievements of a relatively elite subsection against that of the entirety of society is a false comparison.



...

Basically, TI is touching on a valid topic of concern in society, but lacks proper context, and seems to conflate poor areas with public schools as a whole.

As a former teacher, the success of a child in school was almost directly correlative to the emphasis their parents placed on education. Seriously, take out ANY other variables, and this remains one of the best indicators of academic success. So the ones whom the public schools were failing were, inevitably, the ones who had the roughest home lives. I.e. the worst situations for potential home schooling. The sad truth is that, if you trace the problem to its roots, it's more an economic issue than an education one. A comprehensive solution will never come from education alone, but will have to coincide with either increased funding for various programs and/or a less stark contrast in opportunity between the poor and middle class.

The teachers union is out in force.

If KMC is any indication, teachers suck.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The teachers union is out in force.

Wouldn't the teachers have more work if your plan went through?

The demand for teachers would rise hundredfold.

More work for teachers sounds better then less work. That means hiring more, which in California they are being fired left and right.

Must be the only place in the world where they are firing teachers.

Anyways, I'm sure everybody's for a better teacher-student ratio than 1 to 30-50

Originally posted by One Big Mob
If KMC is any indication, teachers suck.

Seems the teachers are indoctrinated.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The teachers union is out in force.

That's...not a rebuttal. I also have no political pony in this race. I'm entirely removed from the profession. But some really, really obvious observations from the profession seem to disagree with some of what you've posted; like the correlation between economic factors and academic success, and how home schooling is an inadequate response to this. I'd love a solution to this. I just don't see it in home schooling. Do you have an actual response?

Originally posted by Digi
That's...not a rebuttal. I also have no political pony in this race. I'm entirely removed from the profession. But some really, really obvious observations from the profession seem to disagree with some of what you've posted; like the correlation between economic factors and academic success, and how home schooling is an inadequate response to this. I'd love a solution to this. I just don't see it in home schooling. Do you have an actual response?

Homeschooling can be affective I have already stated examples.

Feel free to disagree, we will never agree anyways. Besides I don't really like talking to mods here, you all gang up and pat each other on the back like you did already.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Playtime fosters creativity and no rules socialization.

Where is if you in school, you are kind of steered a a direction.

Also homeschool isnt' the way it used to be, where you just sat at home. Now homeschoolers have co op's and have classes with other kids in specified locations set up by parents. So the idea that you are isolated to just your parents is a think of the past.

Here is the thing, do you know how cruel kids can be, though? Having "no rules socialization" is not necessarily a good think.

Originally posted by Surtur
Here is the thing, do you know how cruel kids can be, though? Having "no rules socialization" is not necessarily a good think.

I think you took that a bit further then how I meant it.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I think you took that a bit further then how I meant it.

But then I do not see what rules for playing together a school would have as opposed to a bunch of parents homeschooling their children.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Homeschooling can be affective I have already stated examples.

Feel free to disagree, we will never agree anyways. Besides I don't really like talking to mods here, you all gang up and pat each other on the back like you did already.

See, this is dumb. I responded with points that DID address your OP and subsequent posts. I wouldn't have posted if I weren't interested in a discussion. I'm patently not here just to reinforce my beliefs. I enjoy engaging with those who disagree with me. You're choosing not to, so meh, but it's antithetical to the whole idea of a discussion forum. Are you just here to trumpet your views, and not actually interact?

I also didn't say home schooling can't be effective. I said that it's a woefully inadequate solution for the aspects of public schools that aren't succeeding. It's an affluent solution to a poor problem. Am I wrong? If so, why?

You seem to take disagreement as an affront, when it's just disagreement. I'm not in a particular camp here; believe it or not, home schooling isn't an issue I've chosen to plant my flag on. I'm just shooting the sh*t based on what little I've seen. I'd actually enjoy a discussion that enlightens me a bit more. But it's hard when there's such resistance like this.

Also, I've done right about 2 mod actions in the last 4 years that didn't involve banning ad spammers. My position has nothing to do with this thread.

Ok, so what are your takes in how long should a kid be homeschooled (assuming it's possible at all)? How many kids should a tutor have? Obviously school is an integral part of how the young socialize, at some point you need to build their connections and their interactions.

Why do people respond seriously to Supra's posts?

@Time,

I don't see homeschooling as a viable alternative to the large-scale public schooling.

The kids who graduate without learning how to read 'arent meant to learn how to read'. They're probably from an area which is wholly neglected and there's no reason to think that they would be better off if they were homeschooled.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Why do people respond seriously to Supra's posts?

He's the only one who makes threads here so the mods won't ban him

Originally posted by Bentley
Ok, so what are your takes in how long should a kid be homeschooled (assuming it's possible at all)? How many kids should a tutor have? Obviously school is an integral part of how the young socialize, at some point you need to build their connections and their interactions.

I posted about this already, and reposted it.

You can still have interactions on a smaller more controllable scale. Through co op programs, where kids parents and say one teacher get together in a predetermined area and have this experience like a classrooms setting. Privatizing education and then self administering by parents and teachers on a smaller scale has more impact then a kid in a public school that gets looked over.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Why do people respond seriously to Supra's posts?

Coming from the guy who looks up to murderous thugs and Bill Cosby, why would anyone take you serious? I can tell your real worked up about this, feel free to add something in or shut up and quit trolling

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I posted about this already, and reposted it.

You can still have interactions on a smaller more controllable scale. Through co op programs, where kids parents and say one teacher get together in a predetermined area and have this experience like a classrooms setting. Privatizing education and then self administering by parents and teachers on a smaller scale has more impact then a kid in a public school that gets looked over.

I appreciate your contribution in that matter

I kind of wondered if there was contention about it or what the main arguments were for possible arguments on it.