Originally posted by Galan007
Not going to comment on everything in this wall-o-text. Just going to reiterate a few points...
-Goku was on Namek(in the rejuvenation chamber) and sensed every version of Freeza. EVERY version. He even commented on Freeza's power increases every time he transformed. IOW, he knew what level of ki Freeza possessed in ALL of his transformations--his perceptions were definitely NOT limited exclusively to Freeza's 4th form. Yes, when Goku thinks about Frieza's power, it's only natural he's speaking of the Friezas he only sensed.
That's a severe reach and you know it. Frieza was the fight of Goku's life and the turning point to where he became SS. You really think when Goku reflects back on Frieza he goes "Oh, well he must be talking about the power I was sensing when I was in a machine, not the power I sensed when I had the most epic fight of my life."?
But Goku outright stated Frieza in his entirety was not much of a foe. He didn't break it down into this form or that form, he said "Frieza". Because he wasn't much of a foe in hindsight, and it makes perfect sense that two years later Trunks and Goten could be Frieza level at base.
Originally posted by Galan007
-Tarble was essentially exiled in space during the entire Freeza fiasco. Therefore, he would have ONLY known about 1st form Freeza--so when he said that Abo/Kado were each>Freeza, he would have been referring to 1st form Freeza. Logic dictates that Goku was using the same comparison as well(you'll see why a little later.) I'm not saying Tarble knew of other forms, though I like how you ignore this logic for Beerus knowing the power of other forms (besides the flashback), considering how much he sleeps and how little sense it would make for Frieza to showcase them.
I'm saying Goku's statement stands on its own merit. Because Goku knows all about the limits of Frieza.
Originally posted by Galan007
-Beerus stated that base Goku, without any explicit power-ups(ie. Kaio Ken), was < Freeza. Beerus knew about 4th form Freeza. Logic dictates that he was comparing Goku to 4th form Freeza. Neither King Kai or Goku disagreed with his assertion--to the contrary, they actually AGREED that Goku was weaker:
http://i.imgur.com/VxsRVZQl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vbOHSG8l.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/pants.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/z3YszJyl.jpg Why are you being so dishonest here? Is it really that important to you to lower Goku's power level that you'll just use shifty Long Pig tactics to try and prove your point?
You had to go and screenshot this and you left out what King Kai was actually replying to:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/pants.jpg
He's saying he knows well about the transformations. No one even had time to react to him saying he's weaker than Frieza. And the fact that the conversation shifted completely over to transformations afterwards, means that that became the more important topic.
Nor would him even admitting to it mean much. What you say later is the most recent canon is the most relevant, but the most recent canon doesn't disregard showings and other statements when it's from a vague source (Beerus) with ulterior motives (Goku not pissing off Beerus so he doesn't blow up King Kai's planet).
We don't throw all logic out the window just because a statement was made by a guy who can't sense ki. That's not exactly proof.
Let me edit that into your post so the conversation isn't missing key pieces.
Originally posted by Galan007
-Because of the above info, we know that Abo/Kado were clearly NOT 4th form Freeza-level, because the boys were able to easily stomp them in their base levels, without powering-up... And the boys are certainly NOT > base Goku, who is < 4th form Freeza. Again: Abo/Kado MUST have been 1st form Freeza-level. Well, if we follow this logic, it means that Trunks and Goten are only around 1st form Frieza level in their base.
What that means is that Goten/Trunks are only around as powerful as Vegeta was when he fought 1st form Frieza.
And what that means is that they are only 50 times more powerful, which would make them weaker than fp Frieza. Which would make them way too weak to give a good fight to Android 18 in their base forms.
And we'll follow some of the things you've used to pump them up that are now impossible:
They are too weak to cause SS Goku/Vegeta to exert themselves in a sparring session
They are took weak to scare Android 18 with a blast while in SS form.
They are too weak to outdo Gohan's kick on Buu and inflict damage to Buu.
They are too weak to get Piccolo to sweat when they power up to max.
Keep in mind, this was 2 years after all of this too, when they would logically be stronger. So if two years after all this they were only first form Frieza level, how'd they accomplish this? How would they beat Piccolo working together who was above Android 17 level? How Galan?
Originally posted by Galan007
In summary: Beerus states that base Goku < Freeza. Goku and King Kai AGREE WITH THIS. Therefore, base Goku's PL < 120m by proxy. Your opinion doesn't supersede in-film fact. Nope. Your misinterpretation and leaving out facts don't supersede this.
Goku being weaker than Frieza exists in only one bubble spoken by a guy using heavy assumptions and who had a supremely high opinion of Frieza.
Which goes against a lot of canon.
Originally posted by Galan007
Lastly, the most recent info=the most canon. So even IF you believe there is a contradiction here(I don't), Toriyama contradicts himself ALL THE TIME--that's how he's always rolled. In BoG, for example, Goku could breath/talk in space just fine. In RoF, however, he inextricably could not... Things like that.
They only sacred her after transforming into Super Saiyans--which makes sense. Well, if we follow this logic - and let's - then let's go by the most recent info.
Dragonball Super episode 3. Vegeta says Goku is now the number one most powerful being after the defeat of Buu. This would make him more powerful than Gohan. This would make him more powerful than Gotenks as well. Now we connect the dots since the multipliers are the same and we compare SS1 Goku to SS1 Gotenks. SS1 Gotenks by Vegeta's statement is weaker than SS1 Goku. Which would mean Base Gotenks is weaker than Frieza's final form. Which would mean SS1 Gotenks is not 50 times stronger than Frieza.
Oh my, did we end up back at the same place from the special? Where SS1 Goku completely showed up SS1 Gotenks?
So if we go by the most recent information... it would go right back into the special where I asked you if base Gotenks is weaker than Frieza.
But go on and tell me how Vegeta's opinion on people all around him and he knows quite well mean less than Beerus' opinion on a guy he just met and Frieza who he assumed was the most powerful being behind him in the universe.
Also, to tie this into GT (ignoring God form). Apparently Goku is under Frieza level 3 years after the end of Buu, but then in 12ish years his base shoots up into Kid Buu level. Makes sense.