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Team is grounded and has no super-speed.

Hulk is pissed (as always).

Hickman's Hyperion.

Go.

Hulk. He has taken on teams more powerful and held his own.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk. He has taken on teams more powerful and held his own.

Like?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Like?

The Avengers line up that had nothing but heavy hitters on it (and he was weakening during the fight but still winning).

Originally posted by carver9
The Avengers line up that had nothing but heavy hitters on it (and he was weakening during the fight but still winning).

Name them.

And compare them to Hickman's Hyperion, Gladiator and Nefaria.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Name them.

And compare them to Hickman's Hyperion, Gladiator and Nefaria.



vin

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Name them.

And compare them to Hickman's Hyperion, Gladiator and Nefaria.

I wouldn't say they are as powerful as this team, I take that back after looking back at it but they are pretty got darn close.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media-full/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsAvengers49322.jpg.html

And Hulk was weakened during this fight. He can win. He handled Gladiator without trouble when they fought. Stalemated Hyperion (who was using all of his powers) while being manipulated. Nef is nothing like he use to be. He gets one shot koed. They have nothing but their fist here which isn't enough against Earth hardest hitter.

Wait, you said that the previous team was MORE powerful than these three. Then you changed to AS powerful. Now it's LESS.

By page two, you'll be saying the team wins.

Is this A current Nefaria or Classic Nefaria

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait, you said that the previous team was MORE powerful than these three. Then you changed to AS powerful. Now it's LESS.

By page two, you'll be saying the team wins.

Lol...in my last post, I said I take it back.

That hulk was bannerless hulk,a hulk with no banner in it...that's why he was that strong...,normally any of these 3 can give him a fight and even win...all at once he gets stomped

team takes him out every time unless he goes all gamma god.

Originally posted by carver9
I wouldn't say they are as powerful as this team, I take that back after looking back at it but they are pretty got darn close.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media-full/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsAvengers49322.jpg.html

And Hulk was weakened during this fight. He can win. He handled Gladiator without trouble when they fought. Stalemated Hyperion (who was using all of his powers) while being manipulated. Nef is nothing like he use to be. He gets one shot koed. They have nothing but their fist here which isn't enough against Earth hardest hitter.
That's a pretty powerful team. They were somewhat holding back though.

Hulk gets crushed.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
That's a pretty powerful team. They were somewhat holding back though.

In the beginning yeah but during the scene I posted, Cap told them they don't need to hold back anymore (I think it was Cap that said it).

Originally posted by Genii96
That hulk was bannerless hulk,a hulk with no banner in it...that's why he was that strong...,normally any of these 3 can give him a fight and even win...all at once he gets stomped

That was a dying Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
In the beginning yeah but during the scene I posted, Cap told them they don't need to hold back anymore (I think it was Cap that said it).
You are correct. They did begin to up their game by that time.

That's why I said somewhat.

Actually that team would beat Hype, Gladz, and Neff. I think...

Herc, Namor, Wonder Man, Iron Man, Monica, and She Hulk.. Pretty beastly. Not even counting the streets and meta.

Hyperion alone was a match for Hulk.

Yes, Hulk was mind controlled.

So he was operating at what, 50% capacity? Gladiator and Nefaria would make up for the rest.

Unless you don't think Glads and Nef are = Hyperion.

The only way Hulk can win this, is if you think he was operating at something like 33% of his usual average self when Hyperion stalemated him. IOW, if you think Hulk is worth three Glads...

They were not even trying to kill him..;ust to restrain him. plus namor had been in the desert for like 2 days....and that was a bannerless hulk added on.

Herc and namor have stalemated a normal hulk on their own

This team of 3 beats hulk every time

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hyperion alone was a match for Hulk.

Yes, Hulk was mind controlled.

So he was operating at what, 50% capacity? Gladiator and Nefaria would make up for the rest.

Unless you don't think Glads and Nef are = Hyperion.

The only way Hulk can win this, is if you think he was operating at something like 33% of his usual average self when Hyperion stalemated him. IOW, if you think Hulk is worth three Glads...

Hyperion was blasting Heat vision, using speed, flying, etc...he doesn't have that here and again, Hulk was mind controlled.

Remember, these guys can only punch here. That's it and they are fighting an unrelenting Hulk. This isn't a fight they can win.

Originally posted by Genii96
They were not even trying to kill him..;ust to restrain him. plus namor had been in the desert for like 2 days....and that was a bannerless hulk added on.

Herc and namor have stalemated a normal hulk on their own

This team of 3 beats hulk every time

They did 'almost' kill him though and NOTHING pointed to Namor being weakened. Let's not assume things here. Cap CLEARLY tells them to stop holding back. It can not get any clearer than this and even if they were holding back, taking on a team like that is insane.

This Hulk is pissed. This isn't a normal Hulk and Puck stalemated Classic Hulk, current Hulk is a different beast.

Hulk toasts them.

Team, easily.

FTR, Samson fought the same hulk when he wasn't dying and actually fought him for six hours straight.

Hulk couldn't ko him.

Cue Samson wanking from Carter.

Originally posted by carver9
Hyperion was blasting Heat vision, using speed, flying, etc...he doesn't have that here and again, Hulk was mind controlled.

Remember, these guys can only punch here. That's it and they are fighting an unrelenting Hulk. This isn't a fight they can win.

Speed and flying are turned off, that's it.

Everything else is still on. Not sure where you're getting the punching only rule.

So how badly compromised was that Hulk? At 50% capacity? 75%? 30%?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Speed and flying are turned off, that's it.

Everything else is still on. Not sure where you're getting the punching only rule.

So how badly compromised was that Hulk? At 50% capacity? 75%? 30%?

Hulk tanked Hyperion heat vision to the face and chest with no issues at all. That will not be a factor here. If anything, it would probably piss Hulk off more than what he is now.

He was compromised which means he wasn't fighting at his Prime. That's all that really matters tbh.

This is one fight Hulk



























Loses

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk tanked Hyperion heat vision to the face and chest with no issues at all. That will not be a factor here. If anything, it would probably piss Hulk off more than what he is now.

He was compromised which means he wasn't fighting at his Prime. That's all that really matters tbh.

Not quite all that matters...

If he was at 75%, and Hyperion stalemated him, surely Glads, one of the most powerful HHs, can make up the rest of the 25%? Assuming of course, Hyperion>Gladiator.

If Hyperion = Gladiator, and Hyperion can stalemate a Hulk operating at 75%, then doubling Hyperion is overkill, even if Hulk is at 100%.

Thus of course ignores Nefaria.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not quite all that matters...

If he was at 75%, and Hyperion stalemated him, surely Glads, one of the most powerful HHs, can make up the rest of the 25%? Assuming of course, Hyperion>Gladiator.

If Hyperion = Gladiator, and Hyperion can stalemate a Hulk operating at 75%, then doubling Hyperion is overkill, even if Hulk is at 100%.

Thus of course ignores Nefaria.

I would agree with you if there wasn't more to this. There's no such thing as Hulk operating at 75% let alone 100% since we do not know what a 100% Hulk is due to his abilities (ya know, the consistent increase in power while he's fighting). I think this scan explains Hulk abilities best...

http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media-full/Vs%20Thor/Fight%203/12.jpg.html

"The more he fights, the stronger he grows". They are not fighting a character that has a cap...they are fighting someone that will keep tapping into his power while the fight progress. Becoming MORE powerful while the fight is still going on. Their best bet is to use Hyperion to calm him (since they aincere friends) and THEN having Glads and Nef sneak attack him. Outside of this, they get worked.

Am also curious as to how gimped a mind controlled Hulk is.

After all, he is hardly a Surfer, Thor or Superman - he punches really, really hard. He's not going to suddenly forget his powers, or tactics, is he?

So IF he IS gimped by mind-control, what does that mean? He....punches less hard? He gets less angry? It cannot be the latter - if he gets less angry, he becomes Banner - and we all know what a bad idea it is to try and mind-control the Hulk to become less angry, lol.

If mind control means less strength, how much harder would he have punched? Would it have been enough to KO Hyperion? Am sure we all know Hype's durability feats....

Originally posted by carver9
I would agree with you if there wasn't more to this. There's no such thing as Hulk operating at 75% let alone 100% since we do not know what a 100% Hulk is due to his abilities (ya know, the consistent increase in power while he's fighting). I think this scan explains Hulk abilities best...

http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media-full/Vs%20Thor/Fight%203/12.jpg.html

"The more he fights, the stronger he grows". They are not fighting a character that has a cap...they are fighting someone that will keep tapping into his power while the fight progress. Becoming MORE powerful while the fight is still going on. Their best bet is to use Hyperion to calm him (since they aincere friends) and THEN having Glads and Nef sneak attack him. Outside of this, they get worked.

IOW, a mind-controlled Hulk is not gimped at all, because he is never at full potential (after all, his limits have never been hit). Thanks for clearing that up.

Hyperion alone can beat Hulk.

This is ridiculous..hulk gets shat on..being mind controlled dosent stop his strength....using a single feat of bannerless hulk taking on an armada of heroes..few of whom could take him on alone and has taken him on several times to justify this fight is ridiculous...these 3 win any time..each of them could beat him alone....

The problem here is that super speed was turned off, but BFR was not. It is highly unlikely Hulk can take out all three of these people before one of them just tosses him into space.

Flights also turned off....so he could BFR them the same way.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
IOW, a mind-controlled Hulk is not gimped at all, because he is never at full potential (after all, his limits have never been hit). Thanks for clearing that up.

Hyperion alone can beat Hulk.

Is there proof that a mind controlled Hulk could dip in his power like he does when he's himself? Ya know, he zombie like. Can't see him being angry.

Originally posted by Genii96
This is ridiculous..hulk gets shat on..being mind controlled dosent stop his strength....using a single feat of bannerless hulk taking on an armada of heroes..few of whom could take him on alone and has taken him on several times to justify this fight is ridiculous...these 3 win any time..each of them could beat him alone....

A Bannerless Hulk that was weakening AND dying. Lol...Gotcha.

Hulk wins this and one vs one, he beats each of them.

Originally posted by Surtur
The problem here is that super speed was turned off, but BFR was not. It is highly unlikely Hulk can take out all three of these people before one of them just tosses him into space.

Hulk still have his speed though. It's just turned off for them.

Wait, I forgot Hulk is a speedster now.

Hulk wins

Originally posted by carver9
A Bannerless Hulk that was weakening AND dying. Lol...Gotcha.

Hulk wins this and one vs one, he beats each of them.

He was dying,yes..but his strength at that point was above a normal hulk by FAR...the mere fact it too those many to put him down shows how strong he was then....normal hulk has never,and I mean never had that kind of strength...and if we go by feats.. that easily stands as one of hulk's highest end feats

Hyperion,gladiator and count neferia at the same time?....comeon

Originally posted by carver9
Is there proof that a mind controlled Hulk could dip in his power like he does when he's himself? Ya know, he zombie like. Can't see him being angry.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Wait, doesn't Hulk stop being Hulk, and becomes Banner, when he's not angry?

So if he's Hulk, he's angry.

You're the one claiming he was weakened by the mind control. Prove it. What would he have done differently had the mind control not been there? Punched harder? We all know what Hyperion can tank, let alone the others.

Hyperion punched Hulk so hard he reverted to Banner.

CANON!

Team wins.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thanks for pointing that out.

Wait, doesn't Hulk stop being Hulk, and becomes Banner, when he's not angry?

So if he's Hulk, he's angry.

You're the one claiming he was weakened by the mind control. Prove it. What would he have done differently had the mind control not been there? Punched harder? We all know what Hyperion can tank, let alone the others.

She was controlling him. I'm pretty sure she made it so that he couldn't revert. Wait, she actually did prevent his transformation because she was 'controlling him' (pretty sure I do not have to explain what control means).

This is when she hacked into his brain...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113173/3924359-hulk+mc.jpg

Here is proof that she was controlling him...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111138490/3497168-hulk+v+hyperion+avengers+%233+001.jpg

Hulk wasn't at his Prime. When Hulk falls asleep or is knocked out, he reverts back to Hulk. Before his fight against Hyperion he was knocked out, she put him to sleep and he was still in his Hulk transformation which means she was controlling when he turns back to Banner or not. This was also proven when Thor fried her with lightning and she loss Hulk. As soon as that happened, Hulk reverted hack to Banner.

Hyperion broke Banner one on one.

I have spoken on the subject.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Hyperion broke Banner one on one.

I have spoken on the subject.

Lol...your statement is false though.

Originally posted by carver9
She was controlling him. I'm pretty sure she made it so that he couldn't revert. Wait, she actually did prevent his transformation because she was 'controlling him' (pretty sure I do not have to explain what control means).
She was controlling him to fight the others. In no way shape or form was his speed, strength, durability etc compromised. I have asked for proof that he was weaker, or slower, or less durable. Prove it.



At no point was I doubting that he was mind controlled. Your posts and scans are merely attempts to cloud the issue, but I am not falling for that, and nor is anyone else on the forum.

He was mind controlled, yes. How does that make him weaker, or slower, or less durable? All it means is that he was now willing to fight people he was not willing to fight before. Your scan merely shows that he's now willing to follow her commands - nothing more. To cast a ferocious shadow. All she did was remove the mental blocks Hulk had on not fighting his friends.

Team achieves what Sun God did alone

Sun God seems comprable to Nefaria and Gladiator and he put The Hulk to sleep as well.

The history of all the characters involved have them as formidable opponents for the Hulk singularly. As a team he has no shot whatsoever.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Wait, doesn't Hulk stop being Hulk, and becomes Banner, when he's not angry?

So if he's Hulk, he's angry.




One problem with your reasoning.


If he's BannerLESS Hulk, there is NO Bruce Banner for Hulk to turn back into.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
One problem with your reasoning.


If he's BannerLESS Hulk, there is NO Bruce Banner for Hulk to turn back into.

When he fought Hyperion, he wasn't Bannerless. Agreed, though. If she supressed the Banner persona, he could well have been even angrier than normal when Hyperion stalemated him.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Sun God seems comprable to Nefaria and Gladiator and he put The Hulk to sleep as well.

The history of all the characters involved have them as formidable opponents for the Hulk singularly. As a team he has no shot whatsoever.

Sun God destroyed the map makers with a single attack. I disagree on them being as powerful as him.

Also, Banner took an antidote to suppress his anger while he was in his Hulk transformation a page before landing to fight Sun God. Let's include the context here please.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She was controlling him to fight the others. In no way shape or form was his speed, strength, durability etc compromised. I have asked for proof that he was weaker, or slower, or less durable. Prove it.



At no point was I doubting that he was mind controlled. Your posts and scans are merely attempts to cloud the issue, but I am not falling for that, and nor is anyone else on the forum.

He was mind controlled, yes. How does that make him weaker, or slower, or less durable? All it means is that he was now willing to fight people he was not willing to fight before. Your scan merely shows that he's now willing to follow her commands - nothing more. To cast a ferocious shadow. All she did was remove the mental blocks Hulk had on not fighting his friends.

So mind controlled characters counts as validity for whatever happens during the time they are being controlled (especially in Hulk's case)? Yes or no?

Excuse me? Hulk is taking down Glads and Hyperion? We know you live on planet Hulk but...

Carver doesn't just live there. He was BORN there.

Behold, the true son of the Hulk

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Excuse me? Hulk is taking down Glads and Hyperion? We know you live on planet Hulk but...

With these stips, yes, he does.

Sun God> Hulk

Hyperion Glads> Hulk

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When he fought Hyperion, he wasn't Bannerless. Agreed, though. If she supressed the Banner persona, he could well have been even angrier than normal when Hyperion stalemated him.

Forgive me, you guys have posted a LOT in the 20 minutes or so where I was Googling for the adventure you were referring to before. I was responding to the Bannerless Hulk versus Avengers portion of the discussion of what is now 1 page ago (possibly more now since you guys seem to be using your lunch break to write about this).
That Hulk versus Avengers saga was Incredible Hulk 316 through Incredible Hulk 322 or thereabouts.

If memory serves, Hulk was somehow PHYSICALLY separated from Bruce Banner. In fact, Bruce was actually in a hospital bed watching Hulk on a television screen for part of the ordeal, IIRC. And dying. As was the Hulk.

What you seem to be recalling is the famous Onslaught episode, which one could easily enough be convinced appears in every Hulk respect thread online. Banner's CONTROL of Hulk was lost in that episode, due to Jean Grey, but he was still intact; you still had a whole NON-dying Hulk/Banner complex there.

Originally posted by carver9
Sun God destroyed the map makers with a single attack. I disagree on them being as powerful as him.

Also, Banner took an antidote to suppress his anger while he was in his Hulk transformation a page before landing to fight Sun God. Let's include the context here please.

The only context that counts is Banner's broken, bloody, body on the rocks at the hand of Sun God.

Originally posted by carver9
So mind controlled characters counts as validity for whatever happens during the time they are being controlled (especially in Hulk's case)? Yes or no?

That's your problem, its not a yes/no question.

If Thor for example is mind controlled, an argument can be made that he's not at 100% because he's fighting 'dumb', essentially. He won't use half his powers, for example.

You just said there is effectively no 'Prime' Hulk, as he's NEVER been at full capacity.

What would he have done had he not been mind controlled?

Answer: He won't have fought his allies.

Is there ANYTHING more? Punched harder? Jumped higher? What else could a 'peak' Hulk have done in that fight, to make you say he was weakened?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's your problem, its not a yes/no question.

If Thor for example is mind controlled, an argument can be made that he's not at 100% because he's fighting 'dumb', essentially. He won't use half his powers, for example.

You just said there is effectively no 'Prime' Hulk, as he's NEVER been at full capacity.

What would he have done had he not been mind controlled?

Answer: He won't have fought his allies.

Is there ANYTHING more? Punched harder? Jumped higher? What else could a 'peak' Hulk have done in that fight, to make you say he was weakened?

Fight in character is one thing and actually amping his powers properly is another. If he is mind controlled, just like Thor, then it's obvious his powers isn't being used in the way that it is normally used since someone else is controlling his actions.

Hulk is always mind controlled for one reason or another.

Weak

So what could he have done differently?

You said she was stopping him from turning into Banner. That hardly seems like an advantage in a fight. If anything, she kept him in the game.

What tactics or powers did he not use, die to the mind control?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what could he have done differently?

You said she was stopping him from turning into Banner. That hardly seems like an advantage in a fight. If anything, she kept him in the game.

What tactics or powers did he not use, die to the mind control?

What could have been done differently. Hhhmmmm. How about releasing him so that he can fight on his own. I don't have to provide proof on if he was as strong as he should he or faster because the showing doesn't count for him since again, Hulk wasn't in the drivers seat. If anything, it's more impressive for Hulk since his mind controlled body stalemated a full focus/powered Hyperion.

Thunder clap, ground and pound, amping (no proof that he did he amped since he wasn't in control) the whole nine yards.

Iirc the absence of banner will make the hulk immediately stronger than his other incarnations but it will kill him on the long run.

That is only with the removal of banner from the equation. With banner suppressed it will make him stronger but it won't kill him.

Originally posted by carver9
Thunder clap, ground and pound, amping (no proof that he did he amped since he wasn't in control) the whole nine yards.

Lol. And so, had he been released and in full control, he would have done these tactics, right?

You're the Hulk expert. Let's say he does do them.

These three tactics would be enough to KO Hyperion/Gladiator/Nefaria, would it?

Shall we go by what these guys have taken?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. And so, had he been released and in full control, he would have done these tactics, right?

You're the Hulk expert. Let's say he does do them.

These three tactics would be enough to KO Hyperion/Gladiator/Nefaria, would it?

Shall we go by what these guys have taken?

You used Thor as an argument saying that if he wasn't in control all of this can happen, lol, why can't the same be said for Hulk?

Yes, lol, it will affect them. Hulk used a thunderclap on Glads that almost took him out of commission and then we have this...

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media-full/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHyperion01aGiant-SizeDefenders4.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media-full/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHyperion02a.jpg.html

Koes Hyperion. It has stunned Hercules. Not naming everything but know it'll work if he resorted to that.

Did Carver wank Samson yet?

mmm

Originally posted by carver9
You used Thor as an argument saying that if he wasn't in control all of this can happen, lol, why can't the same be said for Hulk?

Yes, lol, it will affect them. Hulk used a thunderclap on Glads that almost took him out of commission and then we have this...

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media-full/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHyperion01aGiant-SizeDefenders4.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media-full/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsHyperion02a.jpg.html

Koes Hyperion. It has stunned Hercules. Not naming everything but know it'll work if he resorted to that.

Different weaker Hyperion,

"Hickman: This is yet another parallel universe Hyperion. This is not King Hyperion, or Supreme Power Hyperion, this is not Gruenwald's Hyperion. This is Hyperion without all that baggage. This is Hyperion with a fresh slate, for a very specific purpose. He comes out of what the big story is behind the whole Avengers three-year plan that I have. He's very important, very pivotal, and I think people are really going to dig where we go with that. He's not going to be our poor analogue for Superman."

http://www.newsarama.com/10587-jonathan-hickman-brings-the-world-to-marvel-now-avengers.html

Originally posted by -K-M-
Different weaker Hyperion,

"Hickman: This is yet another parallel universe Hyperion. This is not King Hyperion, or Supreme Power Hyperion, this is not Gruenwald's Hyperion. This is Hyperion without all that baggage. This is Hyperion with a fresh slate, for a very specific purpose. He comes out of what the big story is behind the whole Avengers three-year plan that I have. He's very important, very pivotal, and I think people are really going to dig where we go with that. He's not going to be our poor analogue for Superman."

http://www.newsarama.com/10587-jonathan-hickman-brings-the-world-to-marvel-now-avengers.html

True, that is a different Hyperion. That wasn't the point of my post though and this version of Hyperion still have super hearing. Thanks for the interview though...it answered a lot of question that I had about Hyperion.

Originally posted by carver9
True, that is a different Hyperion. That wasn't the point of my post though and this version of Hyperion still have super hearing. Thanks for the interview though...it answered a lot of question that I had about Hyperion.

Such as who he is, what he can do, and why Stilt specifically named Hickman's Hyperion in this thread?

When Thor uses his full powers, he unleashes the fury of a thousand hurricanes, Glory-busters, Godblasts etc.

Apparently, when Hulk goes all out, he....thunderclaps and ground pounds.

A fair bit of difference, no?

Notice I didn't say anything about amping. Why? Because whilst he was not in the driver's seat, he was being kept at angry levels (to 'be ferocious'). You ignored that part of my post.

She stopped Hulk from turning into Banner. She kept him in the game. Had she left him to his own devices, he would have reverted.

Hyperion alone has the potential to win here. Adding Gladiator (would you like some scans of what his HV can do? How hard he can punch? His durability?) and Nefaria (Stilt hasn't answered if its classic or not) is pretty much overkill...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Such as who he is, what he can do, and why Stilt specifically named Hickman's Hyperion in this thread?

When Thor uses his full powers, he unleashes the fury of a thousand hurricanes, Glory-busters, Godblasts etc.

Apparently, when Hulk goes all out, he....thunderclaps and ground pounds.

A fair bit of difference, no?

Notice I didn't say anything about amping. Why? Because whilst he was not in the driver's seat, he was being kept at angry levels (to 'be ferocious'). You ignored that part of my post.

She stopped Hulk from turning into Banner. She kept him in the game. Had she left him to his own devices, he would have reverted.

Hyperion alone has the potential to win here. Adding Gladiator (would you like some scans of what his HV can do? How hard he can punch? His durability?) and Nefaria (Stilt hasn't answered if its classic or not) is pretty much overkill...

He/stilt did named that Hyperion (here's the important part) who still have super hearing.

So you can show me an average Thor using all of those abilities in one fight? Scans.

Lol...it's impossible for a ANGRY Hulk to go to sleep and if he is sleep, he reverts back to Banner. There was more at play than what you think.

Hyperion had trouble with Hulk while having access to all of his abilities. He sure as hell isn't beating Hulk alone...especially in this hindered state.

Lol...I know what Glads heat vision can do and it's not enough. If you're referencing his last fight against a dying Hulk, you have to remember, his durability took a dive. A big enough dive that he was impaled by a telephone pole.

Nef gets koed in a single hit. Hyperion and Glads gets overwhelmed. Hulk end up victorious letting lose his rage on the anything that is close to him.

Not necessarily. Incredible Hulk #181-182 hulk was put to sleep and he didn't revert back to banner. Same with enchantress and wrecker knocking him out. Not much consistency all depends on the writer I guess

Originally posted by -K-M-
Not necessarily. Incredible Hulk #181-182 hulk was put to sleep and he didn't revert back to banner. Same with enchantress and wrecker knocking him out. Not much consistency all depends on the writer I guess

yep!

Not even the gas station koed him to banner.

Or alternate hulk knocking him the **** out just recently.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Not necessarily. Incredible Hulk #181-182 hulk was put to sleep and he didn't revert back to banner. Same with enchantress and wrecker knocking him out. Not much consistency all depends on the writer I guess

Forgot about those instances. I think Hickman knows about Hulk and his transformations when he is sleep though. Remember, Hickman wrote Hulk reverting back to Banner (when he was koed) after his fight against Sun God.

The old "I forgot" line

Team, not even close.

Well there are instances where it has happened. Even recently with Doc Green he turned back into Banner when he feel asleep. Depends on the writer.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Flights also turned off....so he could BFR them the same way.

Yeah, but there are 3 of them and 1 of him.

If people want to say the Hulk is a speedster and yet his speed would remain allowed..well, what would be the point of disallowing speed for one side, but not the other? It doesn't seem like this was intended to be a spite thread.

Personally I find the evidence he is a speedster at all dubious.

Classic Nefaria > HULK

Team wins

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nefaria (Stilt hasn't answered if its classic or not)

Just because he had a few bad showings in the modern era, doesn't mean we should differentiate 2 versions of him.

Why should he get that kind of special treatment?

Hulk got choked out by a snake once. He has low showings, too.

Thank you! I've always held this belief, primarily with Kingpin.

Originally posted by Surtur
Yeah, but there are 3 of them and 1 of him.

If people want to say the Hulk is a speedster and yet his speed would remain allowed..well, what would be the point of disallowing speed for one side, but not the other? It doesn't seem like this was intended to be a spite thread.

Personally I find the evidence he is a speedster at all dubious.

Hulk blitz the hell out of them.


http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1307/26/hulk112.jpg

http://media.bestlittlesites.com/images/users/uploads/10300/HULK2012011_int_LR-3-4.jpg

If this is Doc Green, he teleport behind them punching each out of orbit.

So how fast was he going?

And how fast are Hype/Glads/Nef? Human level? Alfred-level? Penguin-level? Aunt May? Batman? Nightwing? Considering Glads isn't even human, what is a Strontian with no superspeed at?

Let me guess, carver, your answer will be: they're at a level lower than Hulk. Proof?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So how fast was he going?

And how fast are Hype/Glads/Nef? Human level? Alfred-level? Penguin-level? Aunt May? Batman? Nightwing? Considering Glads isn't even human, what is a Strontian with no superspeed at?

Let me guess, carver, your answer will be: they're at a level lower than Hulk. Proof?

The speed for them has been removed. They do not have any speed at all. Hulk does.

In that scenario, Hulk was moving fast enough that the humans were at a standstill. Frozen. However fast that is.

Originally posted by carver9
The speed for them has been removed. They do not have any speed at all. Hulk does.

In that scenario, Hulk was moving fast enough that the humans were at a standstill. Frozen. However fast that is.

I have scans of Damian Wayne (without powers, obv) doing the same. Speedblitzing, with the fancy after-effects.

Damian is only human. So....are these three at that level?

Here is what a human with no superspeed can achieve (if we assume we can use the same arguments as Carver). Now imagine if those punches were backed up by Gladiator's strength, or Nefaria, or Hyperion.....

http://s5.postimg.org/ckjaemgk7/80ly_OPx.png

Note, Robin was also poisoned by Joker Venom, so he wasn't punching at 100%.

Here's another example:

http://i.imgur.com/drDeeA2.png

Unless, of course, carver is being literal, and the team has ZERO speed - IOW, just standing there, frozen like statues. I can understand his viewpoint then.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I have scans of Damian Wayne (without powers, obv) doing the same. Speedblitzing, with the fancy after-effects.

Damian is only human. So....are these three at that level?


Come on man. That's like me posting scans of Spiderman seeing the world frozen (bullets as well) as evidence of discrediting Superman and Flash restaurant frozen showing.

Also, just because Damian martial arts talented self did that doesn't mean every human in comics can. We don't share fts here.

Originally posted by carver9
Come on man. That's like me posting scans of Spiderman seeing the world frozen (bullets as well) as evidence of discrediting Superman and Flash restaurant frozen showing.

Also, just because Damian martial arts talented self did that doesn't mean every human in comics can. We don't share fts here.

That is PRECISELY what you're doing, though. Sharing feats. Glad you finally see it.

You're saying because those humans were frozen, Glads/Hype/Nef would also be frozen. We don't share feats. If you want to say that the team is at the level of those humans, then I get to use other humans' feats. Batman, BP, everyone's feats.

Look at how Damian is punching. No finesse. No skills. Not sure how MA training is supposed to help you with spamming haymakers and uppercuts.

Unless, as I said before, you are being literal and saying that at the start of the fight, the team are all locked down and frozen in place?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That is PRECISELY what you're doing, though. Sharing feats. Glad you finally see it.

You're saying because those humans were frozen, Glads/Hype/Nef would also be frozen. We don't share feats. If you want to say that the team is at the level of those humans, then I get to use other humans' feats. Batman, BP, everyone's feats.

Look at how Damian is punching. No finesse. No skills. Not sure how MA training is supposed to help you with spamming haymakers.

Unless, as I said before, you are being literal and saying that at the start of the fight, the team are all locked down and frozen in place?

I never compared them to those humans though. The only thing I did was post that showing and said that they would get blitz. Hulk has speed here, they do not. He can literally blitz one of them (which would probably be Hyperion first) and punch him out of orbit.

Originally posted by carver9
I never compared them to those humans though. The only thing I did was post that showing and said that they would get blitz. Hulk has speed here, they do not. He can literally blitz one of them (which would probably be Hyperion first) and punch him out of orbit.

Why would they be blitzed? Because Hulk was faster than some humans? What makes you so sure he's faster than the team, when all you've shown is him being faster than some humans?

IOW, how fast do you see the team as being? Don't just parrot the OP, in your mind, are you not comparing the team to those humans?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would they be blitzed? Because Hulk was faster than some humans? What makes you so sure he's faster than the team, when all you've shown is him being faster than some humans?

IOW, how fast do you see the team as being? Don't just parrot the OP, in your mind, are you not comparing the team to those humans?

Because he blitzed Ironman and because he blitzed Jack of Hearts. He also blitzed this version of Hyperion...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138490/3497168-hulk+v+hyperion+avengers+%233+001.jpg

And this is when Hyperion possessed all of his abilities.

He blitzed people faster than normal humans including Wonderman and Ironman.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_e3gkG95Rg-k/SzlV3ODQZMI/AAAAAAAABKA/gwLABu94cbY/s800/Hulk316_Hulk2.jpg

He's just fast as hell.

Here is the JOH instance.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111203482/4643694-2739251-savagehulkleap11214.jpg

I'm sure you don't believe these beings have human speeds, do you?

Originally posted by carver9
Because he blitzed Ironman and because he blitzed Jack of Hearts. He also blitzed this version of Hyperion...

And this is when Hyperion possessed all of his abilities.

He blitzed people faster than normal humans including Wonderman and Ironman.

He's just fast as hell.

Here is the JOH instance.

I'm sure you don't believe these beings have human speeds, do you?

So...once more - how fast is the team?

Smasher was able to react just fine, and even shout a warning out to Hyperion - she is human level in reflex speed in that scan (as she's flying). Try again.

Gladiator possesses superhuman speed (i.e. he is faster than normal human) but he doesn't have superspeed nor any other superpowers relative to his own race. He's a normal (albeit near peak) strontian; not a super strontian.

Thus Gladiator without superspeed is just the normal Gladiator, and he is orders of magnitude faster than Hulk.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So...once more - how fast is the team?

Smasher was able to react just fine, and even shout a warning out to Hyperion - she is human level in reflex speed in that scan (as she's flying). Try again.

They don't have any speed. So any SPEED showings that you provide in this debate doesn't apply to them since they do not possess any speed for this battle.

If Hulk was aiming at her, she would've been hit. Good thing Hulk was aiming at Hype who was unable to react. Then she said that during the time Hulk fist was in Hyperion face.

So when characters are nerfed in OP's and said powerless what do we assume they are at? Peak human? Average American male? Are they obese now? If it was Thor powerless, we have showings that put him above average. These guys have never been shown powerless in a comic to my knowledge.

Hulk has speed feats because he is so strong. If they are still that strong shouldnt they be able to move as fast as their strength allows?

First instinct is spite against Hulk and he gets raped. Its not even a fair fight. But if he is superhuman fast and they are regular human its a little different. Even though all 3 are his peers in strength and durability.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
So when characters are nerfed in OP's and said powerless what do we assume they are at? Peak human? Average American male? Are they obese now? If it was Thor powerless, we have showings that put him above average. These guys have never been shown powerless in a comic to my knowledge.

Hulk has speed feats because he is so strong. If they are still that strong shouldnt they be able to move as fast as their strength allows?

First instinct is spite against Hulk and he gets raped. Its not even a fair fight. But if he is superhuman fast and they are regular human its a little different. Even though all 3 are his peers in strength and durability.

They have no speed here and they need it to make this fight fair.

Hulk's damage soak AND strength is greater than everyone here. This has been said on panel AND it has been mentioned by the creator of Hyperion himself that Hulk is stronger.

Originally posted by carver9
They have no speed here and they need it to make this fight fair.

Hulk's damage soak AND strength is greater than everyone here. This has been said on panel AND it has been mentioned by the creator of Hyperion himself that Hulk is stronger.

So, they are statues, standing there, frozen in time (0 speed means 0 mph, after all). Are you taking it literally?

Damage soak is greater? Hyperion?

AND creator interviews don't count. Even if they did, are you saying Hyperion > Gladiator? Because if not, then it does not matter IF Hype < Hulk, because he has two elites with him as well.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So, they are statues, standing there, frozen in time (0 speed means 0 mph, after all). Are you taking it literally?

Damage soak is greater? Hyperion?

AND creator interviews don't count. Even if they did, are you saying Hyperion > Gladiator? Because if not, then it does not matter IF Hype < Hulk, because he has two elites with him as well.

Human level reaction, not Batman or Robin (who are skilled in all areas) level speeds.

The creator should know who's stronger and Hulk's latest bio (along with Ironman telling us) states that Hulk is the strongest being on the planet.

Yes, Hyperion is stronger than Gladiator (along with 99% of the elites in my opinion).

Originally posted by carver9
Human level reaction, not Batman or Robin (who are skilled in all areas) level speeds.

Based on? And Lol at shifting the goalposts. All Robin did there was throw wild punches, whilst poisoned.



Sweet. Interviews AND bios. Your evidence game is stepping up.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Based on? And Lol at shifting the goalposts. All Robin did there was throw wild punches, whilst poisoned.



Sweet. Interviews AND bios. Your evidence game is stepping up.

Stilt said their speed is gone. What does speed mean?

Lol...I also said that it was said on panel that Hulk is the strongest (and most powerful) being on the planet.

I also think Hulk is potentially stronger than any of the three here, but its up for debate which means its not vast. With speed equalized this fight would basicall by one heavyweight vs 3 other heavyweights who are each 2 inches shorter and 20 lbs lighter. Miniscule differences, and the one is gonna get crushed. Not a fair fight at all.

That one heavyweight now being multiple times faster than his opponents and able to get hits off before they can react and it becomes different.

But any one of them can fight him solo, this doesent seem fair regardless how you look at it.

Originally posted by carver9
Stilt said their speed is gone. What does speed mean?

Lol...I also said that it was said on panel that Hulk is the strongest (and most powerful) being on the planet.

So IOW, as I said at the start, you think the bell rings, and they are immediately frozen in place?

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
I also think Hulk is potentially stronger than any of the three here, but its up for debate which means its not vast. With speed equalized this fight would basicall by one heavyweight vs 3 other heavyweights who are each 2 inches shorter and 20 lbs lighter. Miniscule differences, and the one is gonna get crushed. Not a fair fight at all.

That one heavyweight now being multiple times faster than his opponents and able to get hits off before they can react and it becomes different.

But any one of them can fight him solo, this doesent seem fair regardless how you look at it.

Its not up to debate though. Hulk IS stronger.

They shouldn't be able to fight him solo with their abilities off. Especially with him being capable of outright beating them with ALL of their powers being on. Remember, he already stomped Gladiator and fought Hyperion who was backed by Thor and the other Avengers (it was a short fight though. They ended up getting frozen by a time stop device). By themselves, hindered like this, Hulk annihilates them one on one. Their only chance is working as a team.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So IOW, as I said at the start, you think the bell rings, and they are immediately frozen in place?

Not in a frozen state. Just moving at me and your level of reaction.

Originally posted by carver9
Not in a frozen state. Just moving and me and your level of reaction.

But they have no speed, as per the OP.

I have speed, you have speed, that snail and tortoise all have speed. Damian Wayne has speed, Alfred has speed, Aunt May has speed.

You're arbitrarily deciding that they are at the level of a normal, untrained, average human. When the OP says nothing of the sort.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But they have no speed, as per the OP.

I have speed, you have speed, that snail and tortoise all have speed. Damian Wayne has speed, Alfred has speed, Aunt May has speed.
You're arbitrarily deciding that they are at the level of a normal, untrained, average human. When the OP says nothing of the sort.

How fast are they and are you implying they are faster than Hulk in this state?

Originally posted by carver9
How fast are they and are you implying they are faster than Hulk in this state?

I was taking it to mean they were equalised in speed.

Edit: IOW, their speed ADVANTAGE was removed, as was their flight ADVANTAGE, to make things more equal (and to remove any hurr durr Gladiator speedblitzes in the first milisecond arguments).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I was taking it to mean they were equalised in speed.

Equalized to who because he said they don't have speed, not Hulk?

Equalised to Hulk, as they have speeds far faster than Hulk. We can wait until he replies, because whilst my interpretation makes things a bit more even, you're turning it into something similar to an incredibly strong Quicksilver vs some normal humans.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Equalised to Hulk, as they have speeds far faster than Hulk. We can wait until he replies, because whilst my interpretation makes things a bit more even, you're turning it into something similar to an incredibly strong Quicksilver vs some normal humans.

Lol...even though Hulk possess a low level of super speed, he still have super speed. They do not have this as stated per the thread starter, so why would he equalize this?

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...even though Hulk possess a low level of super speed, he still have super speed. They do not have this as stated per the thread starter, so why would he equalize this?

So they do not have speed, as per the thread starter - so.....they are completely motionless? Three statues for Hulk to wail on?

Why would he do this?

Team wins.


Pd: good to have you back Carv.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So they do not have speed, as per the thread starter - so.....they are completely motionless? Three statues for Hulk to wail on?

Why would he do this?

Normal speeds not super speed.

Originally posted by carver9
Normal speeds not super speed.

What's...normal for a Strontian? You're arbitrarily deciding that they're human speed, does Hulk need that crutch to beat them?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What's...normal for a Strontian? You're arbitrarily deciding that they're human speed, does Hulk need that crutch to beat them?

Them not having super speed isn't normal. This isn't a normal battle, their speed has been turned off...not Hulk's. He has a huge speed advantage here along with a strength and damage soak advantage.

Originally posted by carver9
Them not having super speed isn't normal. This isn't a normal battle, their speed has been turned off...not Hulk's. He has a huge speed advantage here along with a strength and damage soak advantage.

But everything has speed. I have speed. You have speed. A sloth has speed.

So taking him literally at OP's words, means they are statues.

If we DON'T take him at his literal word - what level should we put them at? Normal, average human levels, like you assert? I understand in the case of Hyperion and Nefaria, but why Glads?

Stilt, please answer this question so that we can proceed this argument with me stomping Darksaint like I tend to do.

Have you.....ever?

I took the op as speed pretty much equalized.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I took the op as speed pretty much equalized.

Hyperion, Gladiator, and Nef speed is equalized.

So Hulk wins because he has some sort of superspeed, because the strength + speed gives him advantage over this guys.

Ok, if that argument is sincere what will happen if you restore the SUPER speed on one of the guys and get him to fight the hulk who is not even near the speed level of a speedster?

Will the increased and ridiculuos speed advantage of ONE of the characters will give him the victory over the Hulk?
Or somehow Hulk pulls this one out too?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
So Hulk wins because he has some sort of superspeed, because the strength + speed gives him advantage over this guys.

Ok, if that argument is sincere what will happen if you restore the SUPER speed on one of the guys and get him to fight the hulk who is not even near the speed level of a speedster?

Will the increased and ridiculuos speed advantage of ONE of the characters will give him the victory over the Hulk?
Or somehow Hulk pulls this one out too?

Already happened. Hulk fought everyone here minus Nef. Look at the results.

Hulk loses any way you slice it.

Originally posted by carver9
Already happened. Hulk fought everyone here minus Nef. Look at the results.

You are aware that a comic book fight has CIS and PIS, right? And that a comic book fight does not has the rules of a forum fight?

Did they really used their speed advantage? The only one I recall was Gladiator who in a "brilliant" move decided to carry the hulk on his shoulder to space instead of just punching him to orbit and who was also getting weakened.

Originally posted by carver9
Already happened. Hulk fought everyone here minus Nef. Look at the results.

Exactly. When Hyperion fought him alone, even though Hulk was prevented from tapping out and reverting to Banner, thus keeping him in the fight, he was stalemated by Hyperion.

Add two other elite strong men, and this is a fight.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
You are aware that a comic book fight has CIS and PIS, right? And that a comic book fight does not has the rules of a forum fight?

Did they really used their speed advantage? The only one I recall was Gladiator who in a "brilliant" move decided to carry the hulk to space instead of just punching him to orbit and whonwas getting weakened.

CIS is on here. Hulk beating Gladiator just like Despero beating the JSA and JLA isn't PIS. Let's not go here.

Originally posted by carver9
CIS is on here. Hulk beating Gladiator just like Despero beating the JSA and JLA isn't PIS. Let's not go here.

Then if CIS is on, why don't you have it in the other thread?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then if CIS is on, why don't you have it in the other thread?

Because I'm debating like you.

Originally posted by carver9
Because I'm debating like you.

The hell??????

You asked me what I would do if I were BP, and then you accuse me of arguing OOC?

You're weird, man.

Originally posted by carver9
CIS is on here. Hulk beating Gladiator just like Despero beating the JSA and JLA isn't PIS. Let's not go here.

So based on the argument you are presenting here, you are impliying that on a cis less match a speedster + strongman will defeat Hulk because of the speed advantage.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The hell??????

You asked me what I would do if I were BP, and then you accuse me of arguing OOC?

You're weird, man.

Lol...on that same page I asked you to disregard me asking you that question.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
So based on the argument you are presenting here, you are impliying that on a cis less match a speedster + strongman will defeat Hulk because of the speed advantage.

Yes, they can bfr him.

Originally posted by carver9
Yes, they can bfr him.

No, no bfr. Just a cis less match. Be careful what you answer because it is basically your own argument you are going against

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...on that same page I asked you to disregard me asking you that question.

So I'm not sure where this accusation that i argue with CIS off comes from?

ESPECIALLY as you're using it to defend your admission that here, you're arguing CIS off for the Hulk to win...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So I'm not sure where this accusation that i argue with CIS off comes from?

ESPECIALLY as you're using it to defend your admission that here, you're arguing CIS off for the Hulk to win...

I'm not arguing CIS off for the Hulk though.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
No, no bfr. Just a cis less match. Be careful what you answer because it is basically your own argument you are going against

Why can't I use bfr as a tactic? You asked me a question and I answered it. They can win via bfr.

Originally posted by carver9
Why can't I use bfr as a tactic? You asked me a question and I answered it. They can win via bfr.

So I ask again your argument vs your argument

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
No, no bfr. Just a cis less match. Be careful what you answer because it is basically your own argument you are going against

Originally posted by carver9
Hyperion, Gladiator, and Nef speed is equalized.

According to carvers' interpretation, let's be clear.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
So I ask again your argument vs your argument

I agree with Pak then. Here is his words...

"I think the Hulk wins because the Hulk is the strongest one there is. If all you're doing is throwing brute force at the Hulk, he's just going to keep getting angrier and angrier".

Source...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54828

Does that answer your question?

Forum rules. Writers' interviews are inadmissible.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Forum rules. Writers' interviews are inadmissible.


True. That's why I said "i agree with him".

By the way, what Pak said has also been said on panel.

http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media-full/Vs%20Thor/Fight%203/12.jpg.html

You agree with non admissible proof?

Figures .

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You agree with non admissible proof?

Figures .

I agree with a writers that knows this character.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with Pak then. Here is his words...

"I think the Hulk wins because the Hulk is the strongest one there is. If all you're doing is throwing brute force at the Hulk, he's just going to keep getting angrier and angrier".

Source...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54828

Does that answer your question?

You have not answered, you used PAK to answer for you.

But you basic answer is that no matter what no one can beat hulk.

So I ask you does Hulk has an anti-ko power?

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with a writers that knows this character.

Peter Davis knows the hulk better than Pak and You

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
You have not answered, you used PAK to answer for you.

But you basic answer is that no matter what no one can beat hulk.

So I ask you does Hulk has an anti-ko power?

When did I say he couldn't be koed?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Peter Davis knows the hulk better than Pak and You

Classic Hulk. True.

Carver will never admit Hulk losing to anyone outright.

This is pointless, he will just move the topic to something else and argue about that for next ten pages.