Dooku vs a Darth Nox

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



EmperorSidious2
Sabers

Force

All out

Neutral ground

carthage
Dooku in all but the force

Kurk
Originally posted by carthage
Dooku in all but the force

Tondemonai
XD

Honestly kinda close for round 1, but absolute curbstomp for other two.

carthage
How is Nox stomping Dooku?

Vixas
Originally posted by carthage
How is Nox stomping Dooku?

Well Nox's advantage on the Force over Dooku is arguably pretty size-able. Though this falls under where one would assume Dooku is in comparison to Thanaton in force-only comparison. Both were capable of Force-flight and effective lightning, etc. In truth unlike with most characters, I do not believe I have seen anyone over-estimate Darth Thanaton unless he is being compared to Baras. Both of those characters being low-balled frequently often due to personal dislike. (I.E. Thanaton being the antagonist of the SI story-line and misconstrued use of Ravage bad-mouthing him to discredit his power, and Baras for being.... well... there is an entire thread on SWTOR on Baras fat jokes...)

In any case, while I feel Dooku takes sabers handily, Nox's Force supremacy does what characters/people who focus on that intend for it to do, make the sabers a non-plus. (While there is also an argument to be had as to whether or not Dooku's lightning is more potent than Nox's... I daresay Nox's. The margin of superiority here however,if one believes it exists, is anyone's guess/opinion). My main-staying point for this being Nox's... well... utter domination, dismantling, and suppression of Thanaton's Force defenses. We've seen countless of examples of brief pushes or exertions of power staggering or even pushing much more powerful individuals when they are surprised or unprepared. (I would direct anyone to Star Wars Rebels where Ezra and Kanaan manage to push Vader. Who, seconds later, demonstrates an impressive TK feat by lifting the AT-ST off of him with only what appears aggravated effort. Obviously were Vader not distracted he could have easily stopped their combined push.) That being said, rarely do we see a force user so utterly out-strip another as to actively suppress and continuously over-come another's defenses to completely force them into submission.

Do I believe Nox could do this to Dooku? Not necessarily, no. Do I believe Dooku's own lightning would be overcome by Nox's in a clash ALA Sidious and Talzin? Marginally. Do I believe that should Dooku begin with his saber he could slay Nox? A small chance, yes. I am hesitant to believe he could stop Dooku as he did Thanaton, but something more akin to when he flings Thanaton back on a slightly lesser scale. (Ignoring game mechanics here, where every Sith Acolyte of the Warrior archetype can use a Force Choke stun on you, realistically for someone of Nox/Dooku's caliber, those attempts would be laughable.). Also as shown Nox has rather substantial TK, as does Dooku. Though Nox has not shown the refinement necessary for the flight ability, I doubt any of us could argue effectively that they lack the raw power.

Make no mistake, I give credit where credit is due and Dooku is an effective wielder of the force. However here he is outstripped by raw talent and as it is NOX, quite a bit of amp-ing potential.

All-in-All I would give it to Nox in a majority. Though a cramped, confusing landscape would honestly shift things in Dooku's favor in my opinion. Obviously giving him the necessary terrain to get in close, something I don't doubt this analytical mind would make fairly easy.

Nephthys
Nox

Selenial
I did a massive comparison of these two for a thread on the SWTOR boards tbh.

TL;DR was that Dooku's a far greater swordsman, Nox is stronger in the force and could overpower him in a force duel. However in an all out fight, she can't do it fast enough to stop Dooku decapitating her.

Trocity
thumb up

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Selenial
However in an all out fight, she can't do it fast enough to stop Dooku decapitating her.
Fanon nonsense. Have Dooku beaten an opponent who have hype of insurmountable power in encyclopedic medium?

Nephthys
I'd say Nox is as far below Dooku as a swordsman as Dooku is below Nox in the Force.

Vixas, Dooku's lightning is pretty irrelevant imo. Nox was swatting Thanaton's lightning aside with the back of her hand. His full lightning storm did nothing to her. Thanaton's lightning is arguably better than Dooku's. Which indicates to me how far above Dooku's Nox's lightning would be, because surely it is vastly greater than Thanaton's. She'd thoroughly overpower him in a lightning battle.

Selenial
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say Nox is as far below Dooku as a swordsman as Dooku is below Nox in the Force.

Vixas, Dooku's lightning is pretty irrelevant imo. Nox was swatting Thanaton's lightning aside with the back of her hand. His full lightning storm did nothing to her. Thanaton's lightning is arguably better than Dooku's. Which indicates to me how far above Dooku's Nox's lightning would be, because surely it is vastly greater than Thanaton's. She'd thoroughly overpower him in a lightning battle.
That's some pretty incredibly flawed logic right there thumb up

Nephthys
As I've stated in other threads, Nox is an incredibly gifted swordsman. People always wank the shit out of Ulic holding off Sylvar when talking about him whereas Nox actually beat a Sith Lord in a duel with barely a sliver of force power. With her full power she'd be a far more potent fighter and with her ghost amps she'd be even more potent, on top of the added experience of like 3 extra years of training and fighting (she beat Fatso with only a few months of training). And she has her force abilities to fall back upon as Vixas pointed out, as when she stopped Thanaton's saber with the Force.

Thanaton's lightning has been established in previous threads. Our old buddy Legend did quite the championing for the guy. He's very comparable to Dooku and we saw how that went. And I'd say it's perfectly logical to assume Nox's lightning abilities are similar or greater than her deflection capabilities considering it's her favored Force Power. And I see nothing wrong with pointing out that even if by some miracle Dooku manages to overpower Nox in lightning it would do jack shit to her as Thanaton's did. Not seeing the flaw in that point.

McP
Dooku in all 3. Most of TOR characters are exaggerated.

FreshestSlice
Yes. There is no possible way that a PT character can be exaggerated, though. Dooku did shock a few zabraks and lifted some Obelisks. He's probably unmatched by anyone in TOR.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by carthage
Dooku in all but the force

thumb up

Stigma
Dooku takes it.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Fanon nonsense. Have Dooku beaten an opponent who have hype of insurmountable power in encyclopedic medium?

Yes. The Chosen One.

McP
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes. The Chosen One.

And was consider as Mace's equal/superior.

SunRazer
Dooku loses Force for sure, takes sabers for sure, and I'm not sure who wins all-out. Probably Dooku.

Beniboybling
What I don't get is why the Nox supporters ignore that Thanaton was weakened and his powers depleted when Nox dominated him. erm

FreshestSlice
You mean all two of them?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
What I don't get is why the Nox supporters ignore that Thanaton was weakened and his powers depleted when Nox dominated him. erm

You mean, after Nox beat him?

SunRazer
I think Beni meant that Nox defeated Thanaton and injured him first before dominating him (obviously assuming Nox didn't tire at all from the fight, which seems reasonable).

Nephthys
If Nox is so good she can cripple his ass without effort or tiring out herself then I think the feat stands.

Obviously though, you can watch the scene and see that Thanaton wasn't visibly effected and there's nothing indicating he was weakened. She also beat his ass on Corellia and he's able to just stand up and fly away.

SunRazer
Well, he might not have been injured (just tired to some extent), but it's clear he was losing at that point already.

I don't think it really matters, though. With Nox fully tapping into the power of the four ghosts, a full-health Thanaton stands about as much chance as the one that got ragdolled.

Vixas
Originally posted by Beniboybling
What I don't get is why the Nox supporters ignore that Thanaton was weakened and his powers depleted when Nox dominated him. erm

To be frank Beni, Nox defeated Thanaton on Corellia, as others have stated, without tapping the full power of the ghosts. Granted your statement would be entirely accurate if say.... Khem ran in and blindsided Thanaton like he did Zash to weaken him before the fight. Sure, point conceded. But when it was Nox beating him to do the weakening itself... it doesn't make all that much sense, despite me seeing what you were going for. It is simply the fact that we are dealing with the same two combatants in both cases that make it null and void.

Nephthys
Nox also lets him stand up, recover and gather his power for as long as he wants to. Consider that Dooku was able to significantly recover his depleted powers very quickly when given room to breathe, I doubt Thanaton was that impacted, if at all.

Beniboybling
Sure I bet he healed to full right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

I don't know what you're referring to concerning Dooku but fact is Nox didn't straight up pwn him on Corellia, and he didn't straight up pwn him on Korriban. In both instances he engaged him in a prolonged and presumably heated struggle first, and only after that was he able to dominate him.

Ergo he can only dominate him after wearing him down, and Thanaton was not at full strength when he did. Pretty simple. You're alternate conclusion is based on speculation and personal interpretation.

Beniboybling
Oops double post

FreshestSlice
Nah, Nox is a woman. That voice, bro.

Emperordmb
thumb up tbh

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure I bet he healed to full right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

I don't know what you're referring to concerning Dooku but fact is Nox didn't straight up pwn him on Corellia, and he didn't straight up pwn him on Korriban. In both instances he engaged him in a prolonged and presumably heated struggle first, and only after that was he able to dominate him.

Ergo he can only dominate him after wearing him down, and Thanaton was not at full strength when he did. Pretty simple. You're alternate conclusion is based on speculation and personal interpretation.

Wanna show me where he was injured?

In RotS Dooku is getting dominated by Anakin and so Force exhausted his vision was dimming, then he gets a moment and basically bounces back up to near full. And Nox pretty much did pwn him on Corellia, she walks in, beats the shit out of his elite guard then beats Darth Whatever then beats Thanaton in a straight row. And there's nothing indicating a prolonged duel or that at any point Thanaton pressed Nox, those fights happen in gameplay. For all we know the fight we have as players was equivalent to Nox zapping him in the nuts for 4 seconds. Comparably, Baras vs the Wrath was shown to be you wearing him down through multiple cutscenes and fights.

You're the one speculating. There's no indication of Nox wearing him down. If anything Nox wasn't at full strength since she has to fight through Thanaton's welcoming committee before him. She still beats him effortlessly.

NewGuy01
I'd figure Nox is pretty vastly outmatched by Dooku as a swordsman, and for the most part isn't all that much more powerful than he is either.

Not to mention less classy.

AncientPower
Nox is a suitably good swordsman, he/she would have to be to perform as an assassin. Dooku would take sabers certainly but he wouldn't easily win as suggested.

Nox however has the combination of esoteric knowledge, mastery of the Dark Side and overwhelmingly dominating strength to win any Force contest Dooku attempts.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'd figure Nox is pretty vastly outmatched by Dooku as a swordsman, and for the most part isn't all that much more powerful than he is either.

Not to mention less classy.
I feel like you just called Nox a whore.

Vixas
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure I bet he healed to full right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

I don't know what you're referring to concerning Dooku but fact is Nox didn't straight up pwn him on Corellia, and he didn't straight up pwn him on Korriban. In both instances he engaged him in a prolonged and presumably heated struggle first, and only after that was he able to dominate him.

Ergo he can only dominate him after wearing him down, and Thanaton was not at full strength when he did. Pretty simple. You're alternate conclusion is based on speculation and personal interpretation.

Well Beni there is, surprisingly a tier of contest between ROFL-stomp and evenly-matched, known as out-matched. Thanaton VS Nox fits into this tier. Sarcasm aside about the "surprise", you do seem to be touching more into game-play where the "heated struggle" is concerned. Harkening back to something I said about even Sith Acolyte "strong" tier enemies in SWTOR being able to force-choke you as their stun move, whereas we all but know in a more.... RP-ish fashion Nox/Dooku/etc would laugh off such things. We don't know the length of their fight, the fight itself is game-play, what we do know is the outcome on Corellia is Thanaton feeling so outmatched he flees. Highlighted to the point you get a mail from the Moff titled explicitly "He FLED!?" or other such nonsense. I did not mean Thanaton "healed to full" (if that was directed at me and not Neph) but he was (relatively) calmly speaking and making a case before the Dark Council. Not limping around the room moaning "Oh I am so worn-down even someone far below me could finish me off." (< Hyperbole)

Onto the end-game fight: Regardless of whether he "healed to full" or not, as far as the storyline is concerned you DIDN'T go to the fleet, run a raid, grab a smoothie, dance with some Twilek dancing girls, gamble half your fortune away in a bid to get the Kingpin armor set... (Damn casino >.&gtwink.. REST, or any of that. You directly followed Thanaton. So closely in fact you arrive while he is speaking to the DC. So any loss of stamina on Thanaton's part you have to apply to Nox as well in this case. (Which it did not seem like Nox or Thanaton were tired) Not to mention, at the end of the final fight if Thanaton is worn-down as Beni claims and STILL has enough power left to create that swirling, twisting Maelstrom of malevolent force-energy that Nox walked through.... then it's frankly even better for Thanaton, and thus Nox who just once-again not only beat Thanaton but also, again, fought lackeys just before the fight.

But back to the main point: All-in-All, it comes down to one's pre-conceptions and opinion as to whether or not Nox is superior to Dooku in either category. General consensus being Dooku > Nox in sabers at least. Force Power seems more split. Thus the intent of comparing Thanaton and Dooku, as Thanaton is Nox's biggest static-comparison. I recall Dooku using Force-Flight before, same as Thanaton did. However, I am unsure as to whether or not Dooku did so after losing a fight, and summoning strikes of lightning along with it. (Granted I wouldn't necessarily say one was wrong if they said that was just to make it look cooler as far as the lightning is concerned tbh. It just depends on whether you take it at face-value os lightning, or be a pessimist and "Pfft" at it.)

Both have shown feats with FL, Dooku's being that he made Yoda give some sort of... (Variable) effort in pushing it back at him, incapacitating Anakin with it as well as applying TK simultaneously. I will admit I am less sure of his EU FL feats, but as far as I was aware they weren't anything like comparing Sidious' movie-lightning to his DE Storms. (IE: A megaton load of disparity) Thus they were around the same caliber. Not bad feats at all, and his TK is arguably more impressive. Flinging Obi-Wan across a room like a rag-doll and dropping a walk-way on him rather easily, and in short-order. Aforementioned TK/FL combo. If I am not mistaken in TCW he also actively pushes the likes of Anakin around mid-fight when they are prepared for it. Again, very impressive.

While I know full-well Beni favors the "Just because they didn't does not mean they can't" evidence-responsibility-shift to the one arguing the negative, and while I do not necessarily disagree with this, once again, it all depends on what line of logic one chooses to follow. Do I think Dooku could summon such a maelstrom? No. (Once again, you are free to say "Well Dooku COULD he just didn't because reasons. This not even getting into the fact I am well aware showing Dooku doing that would have run the movie/show budgets up a lot for the effects. Same as people commenting on how SLOW Vader and Kenobi are in Episode 4, and it is generally accepted they are much faster, that was just limitations of the times.) Anyways, am I saying Nox would utterly dominate Dooku? No. What I am saying is Dooku is likely at least near Thanaton in Force, likely below imo, but leagues ahead in sabers > Thanaton. Dooku is smart, crafty, an excellent battlefield manipulator, etc. However, Nox's defense against lightning is shown to be able to handle, and shrug off, powerful blasts/storms arguably equal to or above Dooku, as if they were nuisances. Completely penetrate the defenses of powerful force-users and stop their use of the saber. (Again, this feat's worth is again, up to your line of thinking. Degraded if you believe Thanaton is insanely tired and having an off-day. Held at face-value if you believe he is in fighting condition). But again this is Thanaton, and not Dooku, and I know things would not happen the exact same way. I simply think they would be similar in the infinitesimal amount of outcomes we can conjecture about all day long, when Nox thoroughly dominates someone comparable to Dooku in force abilities, to the point saber seem moot on neutral ground such as this

(*Sips some cocoa and sighs* On a side note, this is a lot of fun.)

Sinious
I used to place Nox slightly above Dooku but I've started to question that these days.

Nephthys
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nox is a suitably good swordsman, he/she would have to be to perform as an assassin. Dooku would take sabers certainly but he wouldn't easily win as suggested.

Nox however has the combination of esoteric knowledge, mastery of the Dark Side and overwhelmingly dominating strength to win any Force contest Dooku attempts.

thumb up

Originally posted by Vixas
Well Beni there is, surprisingly a tier of contest between ROFL-stomp and evenly-matched, known as out-matched. Thanaton VS Nox fits into this tier. Sarcasm aside about the "surprise", you do seem to be touching more into game-play where the "heated struggle" is concerned. Harkening back to something I said about even Sith Acolyte "strong" tier enemies in SWTOR being able to force-choke you as their stun move, whereas we all but know in a more.... RP-ish fashion Nox/Dooku/etc would laugh off such things. We don't know the length of their fight, the fight itself is game-play, what we do know is the outcome on Corellia is Thanaton feeling so outmatched he flees. Highlighted to the point you get a mail from the Moff titled explicitly "He FLED!?" or other such nonsense. I did not mean Thanaton "healed to full" (if that was directed at me and not Neph) but he was (relatively) calmly speaking and making a case before the Dark Council. Not limping around the room moaning "Oh I am so worn-down even someone far below me could finish me off." (< Hyperbole)

Onto the end-game fight: Regardless of whether he "healed to full" or not, as far as the storyline is concerned you DIDN'T go to the fleet, run a raid, grab a smoothie, dance with some Twilek dancing girls, gamble half your fortune away in a bid to get the Kingpin armor set... (Damn casino >.&gtwink.. REST, or any of that. You directly followed Thanaton. So closely in fact you arrive while he is speaking to the DC. So any loss of stamina on Thanaton's part you have to apply to Nox as well in this case. (Which it did not seem like Nox or Thanaton were tired) Not to mention, at the end of the final fight if Thanaton is worn-down as Beni claims and STILL has enough power left to create that swirling, twisting Maelstrom of malevolent force-energy that Nox walked through.... then it's frankly even better for Thanaton, and thus Nox who just once-again not only beat Thanaton but also, again, fought lackeys just before the fight.

But back to the main point: All-in-All, it comes down to one's pre-conceptions and opinion as to whether or not Nox is superior to Dooku in either category. General consensus being Dooku > Nox in sabers at least. Force Power seems more split. Thus the intent of comparing Thanaton and Dooku, as Thanaton is Nox's biggest static-comparison. I recall Dooku using Force-Flight before, same as Thanaton did. However, I am unsure as to whether or not Dooku did so after losing a fight, and summoning strikes of lightning along with it. (Granted I wouldn't necessarily say one was wrong if they said that was just to make it look cooler as far as the lightning is concerned tbh. It just depends on whether you take it at face-value os lightning, or be a pessimist and "Pfft" at it.)

Both have shown feats with FL, Dooku's being that he made Yoda give some sort of... (Variable) effort in pushing it back at him, incapacitating Anakin with it as well as applying TK simultaneously. I will admit I am less sure of his EU FL feats, but as far as I was aware they weren't anything like comparing Sidious' movie-lightning to his DE Storms. (IE: A megaton load of disparity) Thus they were around the same caliber. Not bad feats at all, and his TK is arguably more impressive. Flinging Obi-Wan across a room like a rag-doll and dropping a walk-way on him rather easily, and in short-order. Aforementioned TK/FL combo. If I am not mistaken in TCW he also actively pushes the likes of Anakin around mid-fight when they are prepared for it. Again, very impressive.

While I know full-well Beni favors the "Just because they didn't does not mean they can't" evidence-responsibility-shift to the one arguing the negative, and while I do not necessarily disagree with this, once again, it all depends on what line of logic one chooses to follow. Do I think Dooku could summon such a maelstrom? No. (Once again, you are free to say "Well Dooku COULD he just didn't because reasons. This not even getting into the fact I am well aware showing Dooku doing that would have run the movie/show budgets up a lot for the effects. Same as people commenting on how SLOW Vader and Kenobi are in Episode 4, and it is generally accepted they are much faster, that was just limitations of the times.) Anyways, am I saying Nox would utterly dominate Dooku? No. What I am saying is Dooku is likely at least near Thanaton in Force, likely below imo, but leagues ahead in sabers > Thanaton. Dooku is smart, crafty, an excellent battlefield manipulator, etc. However, Nox's defense against lightning is shown to be able to handle, and shrug off, powerful blasts/storms arguably equal to or above Dooku, as if they were nuisances. Completely penetrate the defenses of powerful force-users and stop their use of the saber. (Again, this feat's worth is again, up to your line of thinking. Degraded if you believe Thanaton is insanely tired and having an off-day. Held at face-value if you believe he is in fighting condition). But again this is Thanaton, and not Dooku, and I know things would not happen the exact same way. I simply think they would be similar in the infinitesimal amount of outcomes we can conjecture about all day long, when Nox thoroughly dominates someone comparable to Dooku in force abilities, to the point saber seem moot on neutral ground such as this

(*Sips some cocoa and sighs* On a side note, this is a lot of fun.)

http://media2.giphy.com/media/dOJt6XZlQw8qQ/giphy.gif

FreshestSlice
I like how the guy who's consistently bested some of the most powerful people in the mythos with the Force is also weaker than the guy who was made to look like a total *****, at close to full strength according to you, by someone who was casually TK'd, along with several other people, by Revan. TOR wank is unreal in here right now.

Trocity
thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wanna show me where he was injured?Sure, how about here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-92PJMyYOYg&t=2m11s

Where Nox brings him to his knees. It's not as if it isn't made obvious.
Dooku's ability to put up a fight, after off-balancing Anakin with taunts, is not proof he recovered from Force exhaustion.I'm don't know what you're definition of "pwn" is but fact is Nox did not walk in, bat aside his lightning, then ragdoll him.It's still the only depiction of the fight we have, you're intepretation is based on complete conjecture.

Unless you have actual proof that the fight was brief and easy?Yeah, for all we know they didn't even fight and played poker instead, because baseless assumptions are fun right?The indication is plain as day, Nox didn't walk in and finish him immediately, he fought him first, the only explanation as to why that happened is that Nox can't pwn Thanaton without wearing him down first. If that were the case there wouldn't have been a fight, and it would have jumped straight to the cutscene, which is what the game always does when pwning fodder.

@Vixas, the only thing I'm contending is that Thanaton was at full or near full strength when Nox finished him, and that therefore Nox can shrug off attacks of Thanaton's caliber and ragdoll someone with his level of defenses, he cannot. However it's obvious Thanaton was outclassed.

FYI the heal to full comment was in reference to Neph believing that in this few second period, Thanaton actually regained all his power.

As for him being stronger than Dooku however, yeah I don't think so. I don't believe Dooku mastered the Force storm (it wasn't a maelstrom) either, but neither did Marek or Vader, it's not necessarily an indication of superiority if he can produce the greater output with standard lightning.

And though more varied in mastery, in terms of sheer power there is nothing Nox has done that Dooku couldn't realistically replicate, so given that it would seem unreasonable to say that Thanaton is superior to him.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure, how about here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-92PJMyYOYg&t=2m11s

Where Nox brings him to his knees. It's not as if it isn't made obvious.

Being on your knee's isn't being injured, it's an indication of being defeated. Scourge was on his knee's yet stands up and strolls away without issue a few seconds later.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dooku's ability to put up a fight, after off-balancing Anakin with taunts, is not proof he recovered from Force exhaustion.

God, you could at least try to check the facts:

"He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.

He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.

There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had . . .

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away."

He goes from barely able to cushion a fall to being strong enough to gain the upper hand on Anakin.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm don't know what you're definition of "pwn" is but fact is Nox did not walk in, bat aside his lightning, then ragdoll him.

Prove it. Prove that Thanaton wasn't as outclassed as we see later. You can't because we never see the fight, you are completely making this shit up. Thanaton got his ass kicked and ran away like a pansy despite Nox having to go through 2 duels before clashing with him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's still the only depiction of the fight we have, you're intepretation is based on complete conjecture.

Unless you have actual proof that the fight was brief and easy?

facepalm No, it isn't a depiction at all. Gameplay isn't a reflection of canon. I'm not interpreting it any way at all, because my point was that we have no clue how the fight went down and balls-zapping is just as valid a theory as epic lengthy showdown. But if you insist...

The proof is how Nox completely pwns him later without any change in her abilities. That establishes their respective levels well enough to conclude how the Corellia fight went down. Not that that matters, because I'm not the one trying to establish anything here. You're trying to prove it took Nox effort, which is, ironically, "complete conjecture."

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, for all we know they didn't even fight and played poker instead, because baseless assumptions are fun right?

They must be, I doubt you'd keep making them cuz you think it makes you look smart.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The indication is plain as day, Nox didn't walk in and finish him immediately, he fought him first, the only explanation as to why that happened is that Nox can't pwn Thanaton without wearing him down first. If that were the case there wouldn't have been a fight, and it would have jumped straight to the cutscene, which is what the game always does when pwning fodder

We have no information of that "fight". So we can't conclude how extensive it was or how much Nox weakened Thanaton by. Clearly not enough to actually beat him since he just stands up and resumes the fight. Just like the Wrath "beats" Nomen Karr and has him on his knee's before the guy gets his second wind and fights you again. It's just as plausible that Nox quickly disarmed him in a saber duel and smacked his ass down with TK or that she immediately overpowered his lightsaber defenses and zapped him in the dick or that, yeah, they had a long fight. Anything is plausible because we don't know what happened in the gameplay section other than that at some point Nox put him on his knees and then the cutscene played out. We DO know that Thanaton unleashes his most potent lightning display ever afterwards though, so he clearly wasn't that badly weakened.

What the shit are you talking about? No, the game obviously needs to give the player a final boss and it's never done that. The Warrior fights some acolytes on Korriban and you still need to actually fight them in gameplay despite them mentioning afterwards that you curbstomped them. The HoT blitzes Sith in a cutscene and you still have to fight more afterwards despite the game clearly showing you how above them she is.

ALSO you're ignoring that Nox was blatantly playing with him and extending the fight by letting Thanaton do whatever because she was confident she could walk through whatever he could throw out. So how you do know that if they had a fight, that it wasn't solely because she let him? Just like how she let him continue in the cutscene and could easily beat his ass at any point.

NTJack0
Originally posted by carthage
Dooku in all but the force

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how the guy who's consistently bested some of the most powerful people in the mythos with the Force is also weaker than the guy who was made to look like a total *****, at close to full strength according to you, by someone who was casually TK'd, along with several other people, by Revan. TOR wank is unreal in here right now.

Precisely why I can't pick a side here. thumb up

FreshestSlice
I mean it's fine that Dooku is weaker than Thanaton in the Force, just admit he was exhausted when Nox dominated him. Easy, and it doesn't take away from the feat.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Being on your knee's isn't being injured, it's an indication of being defeated.By being weakened/exhausted. no expression

How else was Nox supposed to bring him to his knees? On what basis are you assuming Scourge healed to full as well? If he was strong enough to continue fighting, he would have continued fighting. A feat for Dooku I suppose, shame Thanaton isn't on his level.

Though he only appears to gather strength for his FLS attack.We do see the fight, you're simply assuming that because it's not depicted as a cutscene, but gameplay, it's therefore non-canon, despite FE Malgus Force choking the Protags and Revan hurling meteorites being fair game. Double standards much?

And where this stated to be the case anyway?
Not interpreting?I'd say you're contradicting yourself, but apparently it isn't relevant.You can argue the specifics of the fight are ambiguous, but it's evident that a protracted engagement occurred, not a stomp, and that's all the evidence we need to prove Nox had to wear him down before destroying him.

Really, you're forgetting he was literally ragdolled, Thanaton couldn't even raise his lightsaber against him, that is not a fight by any stretch of the imagination.

But if we assume the entire fight is non-canon as you suggest? That would only leave you unable to conclude that Nox didn't engage him in a protracted engagement, a necessary assumption to make in order to disprove my argument, that it was, hence Nox had to weaken Thanaton first in order stomp him.

You'd be left with a feat that is decidedly ambiguous and inconclusive.And fails pathetically. But of course, you're assuming he failed just as pathetically the first time.So you accept we cannot know whether Thanaton was weakened or not, and therefore whether Nox can stomp him at full strength or not? If so that's a start.Which likely expended the last of his power, making him susceptible to being ragdolled.There is a difference between killing fodder and a final boss. Yes game mechanics need to be fulfilled but not at the expense of the lore, hence why final bosses are consistently powerful individuals who could logically challenge the player.

A final boss that can't even raise his lightsaber to his opponent is, illogical.
Because I'm not in the business of baseless speculation? You're again failing to understand that you don't accept the fight to be canon, you can't assume the circumstances necessary to support you're stance.

Selenial
I think the fact Thanaton runs at Nox with a lightsaber shows how desperate he actually was.

Vixas
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure, how about here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-92PJMyYOYg&t=2m11s

Where Nox brings him to his knees. It's not as if it isn't made obvious.
Dooku's ability to put up a fight, after off-balancing Anakin with taunts, is not proof he recovered from Force exhaustion.I'm don't know what you're definition of "pwn" is but fact is Nox did not walk in, bat aside his lightning, then ragdoll him.It's still the only depiction of the fight we have, you're intepretation is based on complete conjecture.

Unless you have actual proof that the fight was brief and easy?Yeah, for all we know they didn't even fight and played poker instead, because baseless assumptions are fun right?The indication is plain as day, Nox didn't walk in and finish him immediately, he fought him first, the only explanation as to why that happened is that Nox can't pwn Thanaton without wearing him down first. If that were the case there wouldn't have been a fight, and it would have jumped straight to the cutscene, which is what the game always does when pwning fodder.

@Vixas, the only thing I'm contending is that Thanaton was at full or near full strength when Nox finished him, and that therefore Nox can shrug off attacks of Thanaton's caliber and ragdoll someone with his level of defenses, he cannot. However it's obvious Thanaton was outclassed.

FYI the heal to full comment was in reference to Neph believing that in this few second period, Thanaton actually regained all his power.

As for him being stronger than Dooku however, yeah I don't think so. I don't believe Dooku mastered the Force storm (it wasn't a maelstrom) either, but neither did Marek or Vader, it's not necessarily an indication of superiority if he can produce the greater output with standard lightning.

And though more varied in mastery, in terms of sheer power there is nothing Nox has done that Dooku couldn't realistically replicate, so given that it would seem unreasonable to say that Thanaton is superior to him.

Ah well Beni then I feel the need to touch on something. Sure, Thanaton's condition during the final fight is open to interpretation. Nox still bests him on Corellia when, as far as we know and saying otherwise would be pure conjecture, he is at full strength. (On a side note the only conjecture for this that would make sense is that he IS at full strength, given he sets it up himself as the end-stage of the Kaggath.)

(The maelstrom thing was artistic license by the by. Why can I never use colorful words? V_V)

In any case, can you prove Dooku's lightning is any more lethal than Nox's? They are both capable of being lethal. I also did not state I believe Nox will ragdoll Dooku, just that his superiority in the Force, the ghost amp, and the plethora of abilities Dooku likely only knows of through study, but does know Nox knows. I would also like to point out the advantage afforded Nox by their time-period. (IE: Nox relatively used to other force-users launching lightning at them... a lot. xD) Whereas Dooku would be more focused in counter-acting the Jedi who did not know many of the abilities Nox does. That being said Dooku is, obviously, able to deflect lightning of his own's caliber. No Nyriss-ing himself thank goodness.

S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nox, IMO.

I doubt that Nox would grant Count Dooku the opportunity to initiate a lightsaber duel.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Vixas
Ah well Beni then I feel the need to touch on something. Sure, Thanaton's condition during the final fight is open to interpretation. Nox still bests him on Corellia when, as far as we know and saying otherwise would be pure conjecture, he is at full strength. (On a side note the only conjecture for this that would make sense is that he IS at full strength, given he sets it up himself as the end-stage of the Kaggath.)

(The maelstrom thing was artistic license by the by. Why can I never use colorful words? V_V)Fully aware, the only thing I'm contending is that he remained at full strength at the very end of the fight where we see Nox utterly dominate him.I don't think Nox's lightning is more lethal than Dooku's, they appear of similar strength to me. However I agree that Nox regardless has a more varied set of tools at his disposal so would likely win a pure contest of the Force.

But in an all-out I don't believe Nox can press him hard enough with the Force to keep Dooku from bringing his lightsaber to bear, which Nox cannot just stop with a gesture a la Thanaton.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
By being weakened/exhausted. no expression

How else was Nox supposed to bring him to his knees?

By kicking his ass? Like what happened in the cutscene where she doesn't injure or weaken him at all, she just forces him to his knee's. It's very possible for him to be put on his knee's temporarily by something that knocks the wind out of his sails but that he can shrug off easily enough.

Thanaton gives no signs of exhaustion of weakening after he stands up. Theres no evidence that he was either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis are you assuming Scourge healed to full as well? If he was strong enough to continue fighting, he would have continued fighting.

I'm not, I'm thinking that he wasn't injured at all. Like I said he stands and walks away without effort. In swtor if someones injured they walk away with a hunched shuffle, which Scourge didn't do. And obviously Scourge isn't going to fight to the last, he wants the HoT and himself to be alive and uninjured.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
A feat for Dooku I suppose, shame Thanaton isn't on his level.

Though he only appears to gather strength for his FLS attack.

It's not about levels, it's not like Dooku's the only guy who can call on the Force like that. Thanaton could do it as well. And just because he was only visibly charging for his storm doesn't mean anything. Dooku wasn't swirling with darkside energy either, drawing on the Force is primarily unseen.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We do see the fight, you're simply assuming that because it's not depicted as a cutscene, but gameplay, it's therefore non-canon, despite FE Malgus Force choking the Protags and Revan hurling meteorites being fair game. Double standards much?

And where this stated to be the case anyway?

Fool, those things are scripted events. They're things the developers put in as meant to happen in every fight. Gameplay fights are completely non-canon, with the arguably exception of their broad abilities.

Both the old EU canon rules and this forums rules (primarily the video game forum but over here as well) don't count gameplay mechanics as canon. In gameplay you have to slash Thanaton with your lightsaber a dozen times and zap him repeatedly. Obviously that didn't happen. We don't see the fight because the gameplay fight we see is divorced from the games reality.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not interpreting?I'd say you're contradicting yourself, but apparently it isn't relevant.

I said she pretty much pwned him because she still beat him after fighting through his body guards and his allied Darth with no break, indicating she's far above him. And I said she pwned him in the cutscene which is inarguable.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You can argue the specifics of the fight are ambiguous, but it's evident that a protracted engagement occurred, not a stomp, and that's all the evidence we need to prove Nox had to wear him down before destroying him.

Explain to me how it is evident. Issue your evidentce (ahahaha) for that claim.

If a protracted fight did ensue, it's just as likely it was due to Nox was messing around with him like we see in the cutscene. She did canonically "utterly destroy" him, which doesn't sound like a long fight where she wears him down. And it doesn't matter because Nox would be fighting equally as hard as him, it's not as if she peaces out of the fight and he just collapses in a weak heap. She'd have to draw on as much or even more, actually, power as he would to overpower and batter him until he's weak.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Really, you're forgetting he was literally ragdolled, Thanaton couldn't even raise his lightsaber against him, that is not a fight by any stretch of the imagination.

You said it, buddy. thumb up

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But if we assume the entire fight is non-canon as you suggest? That would only leave you unable to conclude that Nox didn't engage him in a protracted engagement, a necessary assumption to make in order to disprove my argument, that it was, hence Nox had to weaken Thanaton first in order stomp him.

You'd be left with a feat that is decidedly ambiguous and inconclusive.

Not at all. You're the one trying to prove that Nox weakened him. I don't need to prove that something didn't happen. That would be absurd. A fight did occur, but the details of it are unverifiable.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And fails pathetically. But of course, you're assuming he failed just as pathetically the first time.

I know right, Thanaton is clearly quite far below Nox.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So you accept we cannot know whether Thanaton was weakened or not, and therefore whether Nox can stomp him at full strength or not? If so that's a start.

The possibility exists but theres no evidence for it. It's as plausible as a flying spaghetti monster smacking Thanaton with a folding chair from behind.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which likely expended the last of his power, making him susceptible to being ragdolled.

~Baseless speculation~

Originally posted by Beniboybling
There is a difference between killing fodder and a final boss. Yes game mechanics need to be fulfilled but not at the expense of the lore, hence why final bosses are consistently powerful individuals who could logically challenge the player.

A final boss that can't even raise his lightsaber to his opponent is, illogical.

The final boss of the Smuggler storyline is a fat bloke with a pistol. The final boss of the Trooper storyline is one dude against Havoc Squad. Neither are noted as good fighters and are outnumbered. Both represent essentially no threat to the player characters.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because I'm not in the business of baseless speculation? You're again failing to understand that you don't accept the fight to be canon, you can't assume the circumstances necessary to support you're stance.

Ahahahaha! Oh wait you're serious. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Your whole point is nothing but baseless speculation with you assuming things without any evidence to support your theory. I've given you evidence, I've given you examples, I'd rebutted all your points and I am outta here.

http://i.minus.com/i0vJubkn3pgQT.gif

Vixas
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fully aware, the only thing I'm contending is that he remained at full strength at the very end of the fight where we see Nox utterly dominate him.I don't think Nox's lightning is more lethal than Dooku's, they appear of similar strength to me. However I agree that Nox regardless has a more varied set of tools at his disposal so would likely win a pure contest of the Force.

But in an all-out I don't believe Nox can press him hard enough with the Force to keep Dooku from bringing his lightsaber to bear, which Nox cannot just stop with a gesture a la Thanaton.

Well, taking into account the neutral terrain (I think flat, open space akin to Final Destination in Smash Bros.) I do believe Nox would be better suited to utilizing his wide array of abilities to keep Dooku off-balance than Dooku would be for bum-rushing Nox. As I stated in my first post. He won't be flinging Dooku around like he did Thanaton after their fight, however by that same token he could make getting into lightsaber range VERY costly for Dooku if not outright impossible. Who has shown to have limits to his Force reserves when compensating for being put on his back-foot/surprised by sudden change-ups by his enemies. Something Nox's considerable arsenal would allow for. Ala when Anakin revealed his power-oriented Djem-So style and began pressing the good Count.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.