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Both in their prime. Fight takes place in the Petranaki arena. Lightsaber combat only.

Who wins?

Revan

http://i.imgur.com/zp6L2VW.png?1

"And how do you think Revan and the Exile compare as duelists would she beat Revan in a strictly lightsaber duel?

Drew:

"the Exile is probably more skilled at dueling."

Huh. The guy who wrote for both, vs the author who says ancient Sith can move planets

Glad to see Ant's so terrified he's let his little lap dog loose though.

Lol the Exile is the more skilled duelist? That means that Darth Nyriss would trash Revan in a sabers match.

Numerous hilarious things with that post. First off knowing I can't type large posts because I'm on holiday, but thinking that'll stop me replying.

You conveniently steer the debate away from the point here.

First off, he may say there is no definitive answer. He's right. No duels between similar levelled opponents have a definitive answer, there are always scenarios for a victory. However he simply states "The Exile is probably a better duelist". That's his statement, completely different from the rest of his reply.

Secondly, the fighter analogy is not what you're making it out to be. If you look at what his first response about Revan is, he's saying Revans greatest strength is his force power, not dueling. Just like an older boxers best advantage is knowledge and tactics, not Strength.

What he is saying is that it's unfair to strip Revan of his best advantages while leaving the Exile her best advantage. But that's irrelevant, because that's exactly what this thread is as well.

Regardless, I've replied asking for confirmation. We shall see what he has to say about the matter, I suppose.

It is amusing watching you squirm out of this though. Very amusing indeed

Ok, so you've made several hilarious statements in that post. I need to clarify that you indeed mean what it looks like you're saying.

> Do you believe Force augmentation relies purely on force power?
> You believe Avellone has more weight than Drew, despite his ridiculous opinions on other areas, and the fact he hasn't written these characters for a decade?
> You believe fact and interpretation are the same thing?

Simple yes and no answers will suffice.

Edit: You also believe Revan vs Vader isn't close? Which side stomps, Ant?

Heh, it's so funny how you try to twist the discussion. I accept your concession on all points not responded to (everything, basically).

Originally posted by Selenial
> Do you believe Force augmentation relies purely on force power?
Force-augmentation is clearly dictated by one's command of the Force.

Originally posted by Selenial
> You believe Avellone has more weight than Drew, despite his ridiculous opinions on other areas, and the fact he hasn't written these characters for a decade?
They both have weight, obviously. Avellone, however, is more credible for these sorts of things since has given us a definite answer compared to Drew's "it depends."

Originally posted by Selenial
Edit: You also believe Revan vs Vader isn't close? Which side stomps, Ant?
I was more referring to Bane, tbh. And also, I'm enlightened to here you think Darth Revan is an equal to Vader.

Sel slaughtering at the moment.

Gonna have to side with Meetra.

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2295264996.png

So you're picking and choosing what Author quotes you believe in based on what you think Canon justifies? So you're saying Avellone's quote is nothing more in a debate than your opinion?

And why is "it's close" less valid than "it's a stomp"? Since that seems to be how you're viewing Avellone's quote.

I'm also curious if you realise how retarded your force augmentation argument is. I'll allow you to reconsider before I point out the flaws, tbh.

As to your original post, what's there to reply to really? You say it's my interpretation, when really it's not. Though this will be settled when Drew responds. Your only other part was basically saying Avellone > Drew.

So I can refute your entire posts in two sentences, huh

You basically said "Drew has more credibility because Avellone has said some bogus things in the past." mmm

If you want to bring it down to who has more credibility, Drew or Avellone, I propose we take the middle and conclude Revan >> Surik in sabers.

That seems the most reasonable route. If you want to continue to argue Drew vs Avellone though, I will gladly do so as well.

Drew has more credibility than Avellone. If anything because Drew's written them both at varying points in their timeline, and even though he detests Surik is happy to give her the respect he thinks she deserves. Though I guess that isn't super relevant.

There is no way to reach a middle ground, that's a retarded definition of a compromise. One says she wins, but it's unfair to make it savers only. One says he stomps. Nothing else. Those aren't compatible to reach a halfway point, and if you have to look at which is more credible?

It's like looking at the old CW Cartoon vs the New One.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You basically said "Drew has more credibility because Avellone has said some bogus things in the past." mmmll.

Yo Sel and Ant

What would a comparison between their abilities as duelists look like outside of author/writer opinions?

Which is true, is it not? If Avellone's quotes contradict established canon and focus on a world he wanted to create in KOTOR 3, why should we listen to him?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yo Sel and Ant

What would a comparison between their abilities as duelists look like outside of author/writer opinions?

We've had this debate before too many times. Ant's always fallen back on the Avellone quote.

Though even without it, Traya's ambiguous quotes make it next to impossible to gauge Revan's abilities.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
What would a comparison between their abilities as duelists look like outside of author/writer opinions?
There is no comparison. Revan rapes. Just look at Surik vs Nyriss.

Oh right I totally forgot that time Revan faced Nyriss in Lightsaber Combat

Replace Nyriss with Revan and that is how it would probably go.

Got any actual evidence for that, buddy?

Are you also suggesting Surik wasn't weakened and that Nyriss wasn't amped?

Originally posted by Selenial
Oh right I totally forgot that time Revan faced Nyriss in Lightsaber Combat

Buh... Buh the Project Revan movie!

Originally posted by ILS
Both in their prime.
This also opens up some questions about if there is a disparity between Revan! Meetra and KOTOR II Meetra as far as lightsaber abilities go and what that disparity would be.

Not really, other than her physical attributes due to Force Augmentation.

Also depends if you count her wound mechanics as Lightsabers Only. Probably not,

Revan stomps. Drew's quote has no validity given its circumstances. Can't ignore the detail added after the quote, which makes it obvious that Drew was leaving out several factors.

Surik is obviously more specialised than Revan in lightsaber combat, she has actually mastered multiple forms including Juyo. The only form she doesn't canonically get accredited with is Form V: Djem So. In all the others she is highly proficient or a master.

I agree with Drew Karpyshyn, Revan focused on prowess in the Force and Surik took the opposite path, that doesn't mean they are weak in what the other is more masterful in. Surik is very strong in the Force just as Revan is very skilled.

Best possible reply from Drew, "author quotes don't mean shit" basically. Which luckily was what I emailed him in the first place wanting to hear

I expect Ant will have them all taken from his RT by the end of the day

Revan

Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik is obviously more specialised than Revan in lightsaber combat, she has actually mastered multiple forms including Juyo. The only form she doesn't canonically get accredited with is Form V: Djem So. In all the others she is highly proficient or a master.

That's actually not true. Shien is only a blaster deflection form, so any time she hits something while using Form V, it's Djem So. The fact that she is also able to master Juyo only compounds the thought that she must at least be highly proficient in Form V in combat.

Lol, Shien isn't "only" about blaster deflection. No form is solely composed of the thing they're geared towards. You don't suddenly switch to Djem So when you swing.

Shien actually is only a blaster deflection form, and that's about all it has going for it. It has nothing to do with magically switching to Shien, and a lot more to do with Shien not really being used in any other capacity. Form V is just Form V, like any other. And you can't really master it without learning the dueling aspect and the blaster deflection aspect.

I really don't think there is a "right" answer, which is why I don't
usually like to weigh in on these arguments. Anything I say becomes fodder
for forum wars, and people constantly want me to justify/explain/clarify
something I'm not comfortable with to help support their case.

I don't think there's anything wrong with fans having these debates; I
even encourage it. But I don't want to be involved (partly because my
involvement is often used to try and end the debates by referring to me as
some kind of expert or authority).

So... please refer to my FAQ for my opinion on any "versus" questions.

TLDR - I don't know. It's a tie.

So Karphysyn comes in saying you can't take Author quotes as canon statements - something I've been telling you for months - and it's somehow a win for you?

Concession accepted my dear.

He's said that for years now. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/784026808.gif Stop being retarded. Why do you think most people don't put any stock into his quotes?

The card that is pulled has always been authorial intent and how one envisioned a character. ex: "Revan kicks the Exile's ass."

In the end of the day though, the Exile is not more skilled than Revan, and that quote is thrown back into the piss pool of his other quotes.

TL;DR: Everyone already knew they shouldn't be taken as canon on the same level as actual published works. You look / are retarded for thinking otherwise.

For all intents and purposes of this debate, the victor is pretty clear. The only victory you could have won over me is butthurt satisfaction on a concept we all already understand.

Besides you apparently, of course...

So again, you're happy to take Avellone's perceptions of a character he didn't even write, but blatantly ignore the fact the person who wrote them both intended Surik to be more skilled as a duelist?

Who has Nephthys tier double standards again?

Even if you're using it as "authorial intent", Drew apparently didn't intend either to be far superior if he isn't comfortable making a decision. Thus I ask you how it's even remotely compatible with Avellone's statements?

Personal attack by Selenial to Ant coming in 3... 2... 1!

You suck.

Well that wasn't very nice.

Originally posted by Selenial


Best possible reply from Drew, "author quotes don't mean shit" basically. Which luckily was what I emailed him in the first place wanting to hear

I expect Ant will have them all taken from his RT by the end of the day this presents a bit of a paradox. If author quotes dont mean anything and this is based off of an author quote does that make his quote saying they're meaningless, meaningless itself? And if thats the case and author quotes are meaningless then his quote about them being meaningless would be meaningless and therefore legitimize author quotes. And so on

It does not present a paradox, because when he says, "Author quotes don't mean shit," to use Selenial's phrasing, he means, "Stop asking me to rate characters, because my opinion on ratings doesn't matter. That and I'm tired of being asked by you people." He is not saying an author's opinion on virtually everything is pointless, only on one specific subject, power levels and skill.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It does not present a paradox, because when he says, "Author quotes don't mean shit," to use Selenial's phrasing, he means, "Stop asking me to rate characters, because my opinion on ratings doesn't matter. That and I'm tired of being asked by you people." He is not saying an author's opinion on virtually everything is pointless, only on one specific subject, power levels and skill. i was just joking around. But i appreciate the explanation. Maybe a clever smiley on my part could have avoided this regrettable confusion.

And Drew obviously meant Meetra and Revan as of his work, The Old Republic: Revan. Also, as you've told me in the past, Drew played KotOR II before writing his novel. If that's really the case, he'd probably have a solid understanding of what the Exile was like, as opposed to Avellone, who, to my knowledge, never played the original KotOR, and admitted to "writing in the dark" at first.

Avellone never worked on Revan to begin with. All he did was jump on the hype train and deliver Revan a stream of poetic hyperbole as he did with Nihilus in KotOR II. He definitely gave Revan some stuff, but regardless, he never actually had Revan as a character in any of his works. And Avellone's depiction of things definitely didn't line up with the rest of the EU, which only further diminishes his credibility in comparison to Drew, despite the fact that I admit to disliking Drew and his writing style in general.



Surik vs Revan being a tie isn't relevant to "the Exile is probably a more skilled duelist", because very clearly, Revan far and away exceeds the Exile in the Force (or in certain areas, at least).

If Drew meant this in relation to dueling, then fair enough, but you should've specified that.



To be fair, all of these are close matches. If we're applying similar circumstances to this matchup, then Surik frankly isn't very far from Revan, which again contradicts "Revan would kick the Exile's butt". And it really doesn't matter what he says about other match-ups. If he "doesn't know" with regard to Revan vs Surik, the point is that there's not a very gaping disparity, so Revan stomping isn't a possibility in his mind.

Anyway, I'm not intending to just butt into your debate with Sel, but the point is that there's no reason to be jumping up and down with Avellone's quote and then suddenly slap down Drew's quote on the grounds of his general uncertainty with regards to these sorts of things. And we don't "even out the quotes" to find the average.

In the end, Surik's saber skill will probably always be a point of contention and is ultimately subjective. Her feats are typically interpreted with a wide level of diversity, and as it appears, author opinion is also divisive on her. When Avellone created the character, he did not intend for her to be combatively comparable to Revan - just a unique Jedi. Yet when Drew started authoring her, he intended her to be a potentially more skilled duelist than Revan - which, even if it's not the case, implies rivalry. Drew has greater credibility than Avellone because his works line up with continuity more (despite contradictions here and there), and because he actually wrote for both characters, not just one.

I definitely don't support the notion of the Exile being more skilled than Revan, but regardless of how you hit on Drew's credibility because of his past history, he simply reckons that the Exile is about equal with Revan as a duelist or possibly more skilled. In short? It's obviously not a stomp, as Avellone suggested, and Drew is the more believable and recent source. So by forum logic, his opinion is the one you'd take.

It doesn't mean he's correct, of course, for reasons that have already been brought up, but his idea of their skill level as he wrote them in the novel is still very clear - Revan isn't stomping the Exile in sabers, which dispels both that and Avellone's quote. My take on that matchup is that Revan is somewhat more skilled, but not by a very distant margin, and certainly not a stomp.

Sorry for the huge wall at the end, lol.