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* Prime versions for all combatants.
* Sidious gets two sabers.
* No prep time.

Setting: Theed Royal Palace, Naboo.

Who wins?

Nihilus is the weak link

Assuming this is Ziost Vitiate and DE Sidious with Prime Yoda....

Vitiate can't carry Nihilus, who's got nothing on combatants this strong.

Nihilus and Vitiate

Yoda = Sidious > Vitiate >>> Nihilus

Team 2 comfortable

Team 2. Each is stronger than either opponent.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Team 2. Each is stronger than either opponent.

I have no doubt team 2 wins this but how is Yoda stronger than prime Vitiate?

Because he demonstrated comparable prowess to Sheev, who's more powerful than any incarnation of Valkoriate as of ROTS.

He is? I thought you yourself put Vitiate above ROTS Sidious after Ziost(which surprised me cause I myself am still not sure how that fight would go)?

Nah, doesn't sound like me. Sidious is confirmed as the most powerful Sith Lord as early as ROTS by various sources.

Power isn't everything.

Very true. But there's no reason to believe that Valkoriate is a superior warrior.

Vitiate gets stomped, then the duo wins at their leisure.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, doesn't sound like me. Sidious is confirmed as the most powerful Sith Lord as early as ROTS by various sources.

Except Im pretty sure you did say that along with S66 when the new patches came out but anyway, it appears you don't believe that (anymore).

The OP should specify if Vitiate has a physical form cause if so, team 1 doesn't stand a chance.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Very true. But there's no reason to believe that Valkoriate is a superior warrior.

True, probably not. But as a Force User, I believe even you've admitted he may have the advantage right?

Originally posted by Sinious
I have no doubt team 2 wins this but how is Yoda stronger than prime Vitiate?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because he demonstrated comparable prowess to Sheev, who's more powerful than any incarnation of Valkoriate as of ROTS.
Be mindful that per OP this is Prime! Yoda who is confirmed to be more powerful than his RotS self.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious is confirmed as the most powerful Sith Lord as early as ROTS by various sources.
Good thing Vitiate is no longer a Sith.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Good thing Vitiate is no longer a Sith.

Huh, another one of Legends arguments turning out true. Creepy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Good thing Vitiate is no longer a Sith.

Yeah, I recall you using the same argument with Nihilus. You ended up conceding.

You simply saying Valkoriate isn't a Sith doesn't make it true.

Originally posted by Sinious
Except Im pretty sure you did say that along with S66 when the new patches came out but anyway, it appears you don't believe that (anymore).

The OP should specify if Vitiate has a physical form cause if so, team 1 doesn't stand a chance.

You're free to remind me where that was said.

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, probably not. But as a Force User, I believe even you've admitted he may have the advantage right?

Than who?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You simply saying Valkoriate isn't a Sith doesn't make it true.

Uh, Eternal Empire lol. He's undeniably aligned with a third-party faction and wants the Sith destroyed..

Uh, Bane lol. Also a third party who wanted the Sith destroyed. You're going to need something more authoritative.

So you're claiming the Eternal Empire is just another Sith faction?

Nah. Much like the Galactic Empire and Sheev, one doesn't really have a bearing on the other. Vitiate was recognized as a Sith, received Sith training, utilized Sith techniques, and so on.

Would you consider SOR!Revan a Jedi/Sith then since he was recognized as such, was trained as such, and uses said techniques?

Not sure. Revan's a bit more complicated since he's also a student of Jedi training, technique, philosophy, and recognition.

Not to mention having the worst case of multiple personality disorder since Gollum/Smeagol

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Than who?

Sidious. In Sidious vs Vitiate threads you've given the latter the win in the Force round.

Also, lol Valkorion isn't a Sith anymore. Come on man. Bane sought to resurrect the Sith and actively called himself Darth Bane in recognition of him being the only true Sith left. Valkorion is trying to destroy the Sith wholesale.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Not to mention having the worst case of multiple personality disorder since Gollum/Smeagol

👍

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious. In Sidious vs Vitiate threads you've given the latter the win in the Force round.

Also, lol Valkorion isn't a Sith anymore. Come on man. Bane sought to resurrect the Sith and actively called himself Darth Bane in recognition of him being the only true Sith left. Valkorion is trying to destroy the Sith wholesale.

When did I give Vitiate a nod over Sheev in a Force fight?

Nah, he's trying to destroy the "flawed" Sith order he created. Didn't those audio files Ant diligently recovered even address him as the Sith Emperor?

Sidious and vitiate. Sidious as of his DE incarnation takes vitiate down with moderate to high difficulty. Vitiate just can't beat him in terms of the force for a majority. His illusions magic and so one aren't going to be something that Sidious can't handle or resist due to his enormous will power and command of the force. As duelist yoda and Sidious defiantly have it. Even if vitiate was a more competent duelist yod and Sidious still win 10/10. In the force Sidious will be what brings his team to victory as he is the most powerful one here. Yoda while behind is still powerful and can actually defeat nihlus. So vitiate and nihlus are pretty much screwed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious. In Sidious vs Vitiate threads you've given the latter the win in the Force round.

Also, lol Valkorion isn't a Sith anymore. Come on man. Bane sought to resurrect the Sith and actively called himself Darth Bane in recognition of him being the only true Sith left. Valkorion is trying to destroy the Sith wholesale.


Traya was trying to destroy the Force itself. Are you going to suggest she isn't Sith either?

As for this fight, Prime!Yoda and DE Sidious will solidly win this fight.

No, considering she still considered herself Darth Traya and led a Sith legion. Plus betraying everyone is just her shtick. Valkorion founded a completely separate and competing empire and force using order and is actively attempting to wipe out the Sith.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Traya was trying to destroy the Force itself. Are you going to suggest she isn't Sith either?

As for this fight, Prime!Yoda and DE Sidious will solidly win this fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, considering she still considered herself Darth Traya and led a Sith legion. Plus betraying everyone is just her shtick. Valkorion founded a completely separate and competing empire and force using order and is actively attempting to wipe out the Sith.


And yet trying to destroy the Force is completely against all Sith teachings, and would effectively wipe out the Sith. Trying to wipe out the Sith doesn't mean you are no longer a Sith. If your argument is that Vitiate isn't a Sith because he no longer identifies as Sith...well a picture is worth a thousand words.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150616083334-rachel-dolezal-naacp-identify-black-interview-newday-sot-00002214-large-169.jpg

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And yet trying to destroy the Force is completely against all Sith teachings, and would effectively wipe out the Sith. Trying to wipe out the Sith doesn't mean you are no longer a Sith. If your argument is that Vitiate isn't a Sith because he no longer identifies as Sith...well a picture is worth a thousand words.

Dude, like I said she was still a Sith, still considered herself a Sith, outright says shes a Sith, still worked with the Sith and still held and advocated very Sith-like principles. And effectively wiping out the Sith isn't actually wiping them out. She wanted to destroy the Trayas Sith because of the threat of their teachings but the Twu Sith still lived and destroying the Force wasn't about destroying the Sith directly.

Vitiate completely broke away from the Sith. There is absolutely nothing tying him to the order anymore. He is no more a Sith than Anakin was on his death bed. He turned his back on the order no less completely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, like I said she was still a Sith, still considered herself a Sith, outright says shes a Sith, still worked with the Sith and still held and advocated very Sith-like principles. And effectively wiping out the Sith isn't actually wiping them out. She wanted to destroy the Trayas Sith because of the threat of their teachings but the Twu Sith still lived and destroying the Force wasn't about destroying the Sith directly.

So you're saying Kreia while she was traveling with the Exile wasn't a Sith because she called herself Kreia and not Traya. False.



So was Kreia during most of KOTOR II. Doesn't mean she wasn't a Sith.

Valkorion and Nihilus take this easily.
When I'll see Yoda possessing half of the power Nihilus has; maybe I'll reconsider.
(Thread Necromancy for you guys)

Team 1.

Yoda and Sidious ROFL STOMP

Team 1

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Yoda and Sidious ROFL STOMP
Nihilus could just well Force-grip Yoda and throw him out of the planet's orbit or apply him a DBZ Force-push.
Or better; Nihilus Hungers them both instantly. And Valkorion slaps Nihilus's head,
"We weren't supposed to eat them, stoopa!"

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Team 1
I'm wondering why people think otherwise?
We never saw Sidious nor Yoda performing feats at the powerscale of neither Valkorion or Nihilus.
Why is this blind fanboyism?

Nihilus is effective, until he runs into the top tier true powerhouses like these two, where he gets flattened.

It's clear that Freedon_Nadd wants a debate.

Funnily enough, I can see Nhillus at his full power soloing via drain. And if TK is any measure of combative prowess - which people seem to argue for here - then 'N' should just ragdoll them both. As long as the Ravenger on Malchor is heavier than 5 Munturr stones.

Sidious and Yoda are well beyond the Drain upper limit.

According to what, Ancient Powahh?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nihilus is effective, until he runs into the top tier true powerhouses like these two, where he gets flattened.
Tell me what has Yoda done with the Force to name him a "powerhouse"?
He's basically the weakest here.
Nihilus will just Force grip him and throw him out of the planet's orbit or he could just Hunger them both instantly.
Add Valkorion. And Valky's team wins with no effort. Though, they could win individually as well...
Why are you joking and trying to piss of the TOR wankers? Do you like it?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sidious and Yoda are well beyond the Drain upper limit.
What is with this shit?
Neither have Force drain immunity.

Wasn't it said Sidious knew every darkside ability somewhere? (apart from shatterpoint) this may be a load of bull but I heard it somewhere :/ if this is the case I assume Sid knows how to resist force drain.

No, there's an old source claiming that he was "rumored" to know every Force technique, though some sources have come out in the future explicitly naming techniques that were beyond Palpatine's knowledge (retconned eventually, but still).

As powerful as Nihilus and Vitiate are, their destructive capacity is outstripped by Palpatine, who's also canonically more powerful. Yoda's good enough to hold his own in terms of power and butcher them close-up. Team 2 wins.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, there's an old source claiming that he was "rumored" to know every Force technique, though some sources have come out in the future explicitly naming techniques that were beyond Palpatine's knowledge (retconned eventually, but still).

As powerful as Nihilus and Vitiate are, their destructive capacity is outstripped by Palpatine, who's also canonically more powerful. Yoda's good enough to hold his own in terms of power and butcher them close-up. Team 2 wins.
Are we discussing accolades or feats?
Don't use the G-canon excuse.
Why using it?
And Sidious has done nothing to surpass both Nihilus' and Valkorion's Force strength.
His wanky storms won't be useful here since he'd just kill himself in the process.
Why or what had Yoda done to say he even has the slightest chance to compete with these two Force aberrations?

Originally posted by SunRazer
though some sources have come out in the future explicitly naming techniques that were beyond Palpatine's knowledge (retconned eventually, but still)

Interesting. I assume these 'retcons' are part of exclusive head-canon unknown to the rest of us...



Vitiate and Nhillus have also destroyed the surfaces of worlds with seemingly greater ease, and in a shorter time periods than Palpatine has. Valkorion even did so in his spectral form. Do remember however, that this is still a versus thread and not a demolition contest. How to you expect Sidious' destructive prowess will come into play, when much of that power was useless against Luke and Leia?



The canonically more powerful idea pretty much boils down to the personal opinion of a historian who lived during the rise of the Empire. His opinion is not some binding fact. Yes, Sidious is the most powerful sith lord of his time, but that doesn't apply to other era's.



Apparantly not.



Quite correct, but it probably won't come to that.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sidious and Yoda are well beyond the Drain upper limit.

The "upper limit" of the Drain, as far as we've seen, is a planet hosting a species of Force users and 100+ Jedi. Somehow I fail to see how Sidious are "well beyond" that accumulation of force power. And there is still no defense against the technique.

But even assuming that the last sentence is not true and Sidious and Yoda have their ways to resist that drain or defend themselves against it, what do they do when Vitiate fires some area effect abilities at them at the same time?

While Sidious and Yoda might be good challengers for Vitiate and Nihilus, or even capable of defeating them individually (which could be argued), I really don't see them doing any good against two beings who have some devastating force attacks up their sleeves that can affect rather large areas and have sucessfully been used against other Force users.

The only way I see Sidious and Yoda winning is by either closing into melee combat rather fast (where they should have the upper hand).

Planet's have Force defenses now? And the Jedi, they were performing battle meld or something?

Krayt could drain Abeloth, the actual effects of which were minimal. Darth Sidious being of far greater caliber than Darth Nihilus renders his drain moot for all of the few seconds it'll take for Sidious to void his spirit.

Though, we both know the real reason for your reply, Nai.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Planet's have Force defenses now? And the Jedi, they were performing battle meld or something?

The Jedi who were drained simultaneously together with the Force using population of the planet most certainly had - even individually.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Krayt could drain Abeloth, the actual effects of which were minimal. Darth Sidious being of far greater caliber than Darth Nihilus renders his drain moot for all of the few seconds it'll take for Sidious to void his spirit.

Though, we both know the real reason for your reply, Nai.

Yeah.
Except Nihilus attack is not a simply force drain (which is sapping Force powers), but a direct attack against the Force connection of the victims, killing them through draining the "Living force" from them.

And then, I don't get your comparison at all. So because Krayt can't do anything with this technique to Abeloth, Nihilus can't do anything to Sidious as well? That doesn't follow.

And my "real reason" for reply would be what? I was genuinely interested in how you explain "Sidious and Yoda" > "planet filled with force user and 100 Jedi". Apparently, you don't.

Originally posted by AncientPower

Though, we both know the real reason for your reply, Nai.

This is nonsense AP.

Why don't you represent his argument in full rather than crafting men filled with Straw.

You mean at a time when all of Abeloth's "copies" were being attacked simultaneously?

Nai, I like how you presume to educate myself on matters of a game I've had the better part of a dozen years to perfect opinions on. Nihilus' drain is so amazing that he can strip(but not kill) Darth Traya and kill Darth Sion, neither of whom would even appear on the radar of Darth Sidious

In all actual seriousness, Darth Traya taught Nihilus the greatest heights of the technique itself. She explains that what he uses is an instinctive form of Drain Life, a technique that cannot be taught but experienced, something as old as the Sith themselves are. It is not some justifiable 'no limits fallacy' power.

You didn't understand the Krayt/Abeloth comparison, evidently, allow me to explain. Having a 'hax' power such as Sever Force or Drain, is only useful against those of similar or lesser power than yourself. The precedent for this is based on Urr vs Kun, Krayt vs Abeloth, etc.

Sidious is much too powerful to fall prey to a Drain Life technique, let alone him and Yoda combined.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nai, I like how you presume to educate myself on matters of a game I've had the better part of a dozen years to perfect opinions on. Nihilus' drain is so amaxing

And I like how you dodge the question and ignore the fact, that I myself had the same time to "perfect opinion" (cringeworthy expression) on that game, too. A claim that is, by the way, completely counteracted by your seeming inability to defend them.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Nihilus will just Force grip him and throw him out of the planet's orbit or he could just Hunger them both instantly.
Add Valkorion. And Valky's team wins with no effort. Though, they could win individually as well...


Moron.

Originally posted by Nai
The Jedi who were drained simultaneously together with the Force using population of the planet most certainly had - even individually.
Which is the key, it's an impressive display in terms of the quantity of energy drained, but considering that he only had to overcome the middling defences of each individual Jedi on the planet, it hardly proves he can overwhelm the likes of Yoda and Sidious.

See my edit.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which is the key, it's an impressive display in terms of the quantity of energy drained, but considering that he only had to overcome the middling defences of each individual Jedi on the planet, it hardly proves he can overwhelm the likes of Yoda and Sidious. There's also no proof they can defend against it, outside of disconnecting themselves from the force entirely.

100 Jedi's defences = "middling".

Yeah, ok.

Gosh that stupid huh?

I guess you are. Dang, sorry man.

Ouch, "I know you are but what am I" sick burn man.

Arguing that draining a 100 fodder Jedi means you can drain Yoda, is like saying Vitiate can TP Revan because of the 8,000 on Nathema. But 300 years later, with the aid of Dread Masters no less, proved otherwise.

AP is right tbh.

Nihilus doesn't need to drain Yoda, he can just throw him out of orbit with the Force.

Originally posted by Trocity
Nihilus doesn't need to drain Yoda, he can just throw him out of orbit with the Force.

Ayy LMAO.

Sidious and Yoda take it.

Of course they can.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ouch, "I know you are but what am I" sick burn man.

Be fair here B, there's no way I could follow up on such a legendary burn as "you're stupid". I'm only human.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which is the key, it's an impressive display in terms of the quantity of energy drained, but considering that he only had to overcome the middling defences of each individual Jedi on the planet, it hardly proves he can overwhelm the likes of Yoda and Sidious.
If you think that a planet (with 1 mil. of Miraluka and 100 Jedi) and the planet itself has less Force power than Sids and Yoda, you have a problem with your comprehension.
Not to mention that Nihilus' Hunger is instant.
And Nihilus has devoured more planets' Force energies than Valky's.

Originally posted by Nai
The "upper limit" of the Drain, as far as we've seen, is a planet hosting a species of Force users and 100+ Jedi. Somehow I fail to see how Sidious are "well beyond" that accumulation of force power. And there is still no defense against the technique.

But even assuming that the last sentence is not true and Sidious and Yoda have their ways to resist that drain or defend themselves against it, what do they do when Vitiate fires some area effect abilities at them at the same time?

While Sidious and Yoda might be good challengers for Vitiate and Nihilus, or even capable of defeating them individually (which could be argued), I really don't see them doing any good against two beings who have some devastating force attacks up their sleeves that can affect rather large areas and have sucessfully been used against other Force users.

The only way I see Sidious and Yoda winning is by either closing into melee combat rather fast (where they should have the upper hand).
Even with immunity; Nihily and Valky still take it.
Lord Nai, I am an extension of your will.

Originally posted by Nephthys
100 Jedi's defences = "middling".

If their defenses were a coordinated effort where the melded their power to stop their foe, you may have had a point there. But no, we're talking about 100 individual Jedi who were hit by surprise and had no idea what was killing them.

Who is this freedon nadd ?

A fart smeller, err I mean a smart feller ofc.

Found him on space battles taking on the Sheevites.

Nihilus and Valk. Palpatine never really did anything impressive pre DE and in DE his Byss feat was similar to King Ommins DS manipulations on Onderon barring Force storm. However considering that Nadd knew that tech Ommin knowing it isn't unlikely. Nihilus and Valk>Ommin.

Oh shit, I forgot all about your "Palpatine is Ommin tier" garbage.

It's very obvious that Veitch was trying to show the power of TOTJ characters by making expys of Palpatine and Vader AKA Ommin and Warb Null respectively.

Yep and let's not forget that Odan Urr and Vodo-Siosk Baas are the Yoda and Mace Windu of their era, thus putting them all on the same level, too.

On panel performances>databook statements. Odan Urr and Vodo are stronger than planetary destroying Dark side energies scaling from Thon and a small group of Jedi led by Vodo are stronger than Coruscants anti orbit defenses.

Lmao

Originally posted by Trocity
Oh shit, I forgot all about your "Palpatine is Ommin tier" garbage. http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2183253/sillynbaplayers.gif

Team 2

It's really not worth responding to people who believe Palpatine's supremacy quotes came from Lucas or people who think he can't control his Wormholes by DE.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's really not worth responding to people who believe Palpatine's supremacy quotes came from Lucas or people who think he can't control his Wormholes by DE.
His wanky storms have nothing to do with his power, but Force mastery. And I'm afraid that the Byss boost everyone's talking about; it didn't even boost his Force strength.
Draining someone's life-force actually heals your body of diseases or afflictions.
Knowing that Palpy's clones were degraded(each far worse than the other); it's no wonder why he needed to drain Byss' people's life-force. He did it to keep in check his health.
The only thing DE Palpy has better than his movie Palpy, it's his wanky storms and a pack of greater knowledge.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
If their defenses were a coordinated effort where the melded their power to stop their foe, you may have had a point there. But no, we're talking about 100 individual Jedi who were hit by surprise and had no idea what was killing them.
Ulic and Anakin have the only Drain immunity to Dark Reaper's power.
And it's logical that Ulic's knowledge of Force drain immunity was passed from generation to generation of Jedi.
As far as the drain goes. This power doesn't "eat" connections to the Force as Nihilus' Hunger does.
Nihilus got his uber ability from Bao-Dur's MSG and it is no Force drain.
Even Valkorion's Nathema was an isolated event. Because we can see that Ziost didn't become a Void like Medriaas.
But Nihilus does this daily.
I could say that Valkorion's Nathema feat was nothing more but a singulary event which happened in "mysterious ways" of the Force. A miracle. A coincidence. A random thing.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nihilus' drain is so amazing that he can strip(but not kill) Darth Traya and kill Darth Sion, neither of whom would even appear on the radar of Darth Sidious


I'm sorry: He tried to kill one of them with the aforementioned technique where exactly?



Wrong. Traya explicitly states that Nihilus is the "pinnacle" of that ability, so it stands to reason that he is better with it than anybody else, an idea supported by the stuff he does with it. Furthermore did the Jedi most likely know defense against a simple Force Drain. And I'm not even applying a "no limits fallacy" here. I'm merely asking you why it would be harder to overpower Yoda and Sidious, than it was to overpower 100+ Jedi and millions (?) of Miraluka.



I didn't understand the comparison because:

a) It's a different power.
b) Is Krayt most likely less proficient than Nihilus with his.
c) Is Abeloth by far more powerful than Sidious.

And if "hax" powers are just effective against beings with similar or lesser power, I wonder how Kyle Kartan managed to use Sever Force against Jerec, who was, at that time, amped by the power of the Valley of the Jedi.



Yes. I acknowledged that idea. My argument was that they need to defend themselve against that and against Vitiate attacking them at the same time, since both he and Nihilus operate with area effect offensive abilities.

@Beniboybling:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which is the key, it's an impressive display in terms of the quantity of energy drained, but considering that he only had to overcome the middling defences of each individual Jedi on the planet, it hardly proves he can overwhelm the likes of Yoda and Sidious.

He needed to overwhelm their defenses simultaneously with his attack.

Makes little difference tbh, he engulfed the planet in an indiscriminate storm of draining energy and anyone who was caught in it died, under those circumstances the number of individuals consumed is largely, if not completely, irrelevant.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Makes little difference tbh, he engulfed the planet in an indiscriminate storm of draining energy and anyone who was caught in it died, under those circumstances the number of individuals consumed is largely, if not completely, irrelevant.

Except he did not.
He actively spared Visas Marr from that attack, which means he didn't just summon some "indiscriminate storm" of draining energy that destroyed everyone on the planet. He actively controlled that drain.

And even assuming you were correct: He can summon a planetary-scale drain-energy storm that kills just everyone, but he will fail utilizing that power against two individuals?

He "spared" Visas? Other than Kreia's false hype pertaining to Nihilus, is this actually supported anywhere? Sources describe Nihilus going down to look for any survivors - ergo, he wasn't actively trying to keep someone alive, and certainly wasn't aware of them.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He "spared" Visas? Other than Kreia's false hype pertaining to Nihilus, is this actually supported anywhere? Sources describe Nihilus going down to look for any survivors - ergo, he wasn't actively trying to keep someone alive, and certainly wasn't aware of them.

He needed a Miraluka.
You know these creatures can detect the Force energies of other planets.They basically see with the Force. That's why he needed her.
Here it is just PIS and WIS that she outrightly ''survived''.


Can you tell me why you think that Sidious is more powerful than Nihilus?
It'd help me you know...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Other than Kreia's false hype pertaining to Nihilus

Rather rich from someone who subscribes to Voren Na'al's opinion of Sidious, as some sort of indisputable fact of canon...

Originally posted by Nai
Except he did not.
He actively spared Visas Marr from that attack, which means he didn't just summon some "indiscriminate storm" of draining energy that destroyed everyone on the planet. He actively controlled that drain.

And even assuming you were correct: He can summon a planetary-scale drain-energy storm that kills just everyone, but he will fail utilizing that power against two individuals? So he (may have) stopped the storm from consuming one person, it changes nothing lol.

And the point is that you have no proof such a power would be effective against powerhouses of Yoda & Sidious' caliber.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So he (may have) stopped the storm from consuming one person, it changes nothing lol.

And the point is that you have no proof such a power would be effective against powerhouses of Yoda & Sidious' caliber.

Bling Bling Boy tell us and enlighten us why couldn't Nihilus Hunger both Yoda and Sidious?
First, you do realize that neither of them have Force drain immunity(that's just Anakin and Ulic)
Second, what Nihilus does is not even Force drain. Nihilus got that ability from Bao-Dur's Mass Shadow Generator.

Two individuals means nothing to a stoopa dark side aberration like Darth Nihilus. Yoda's and Sidious' Force strength is nothing to the Force energies of entire planets which Nihilus had easily devoured with his stupid Nom-Nomness.

@SunRazer:
Originally posted by SunRazer
He "spared" Visas? Other than Kreia's false hype pertaining to Nihilus, is this actually supported anywhere? Sources describe Nihilus going down to look for any survivors - ergo, he wasn't actively trying to keep someone alive, and certainly wasn't aware of them.

You mean other then Visas constantly pointing to the fact that Nihilus spared her and "Unseen, Unheared" pretty much showing that Nihilus appears right in front of her to pick her up? I wonder what sources you have consulted that describe Nihilus as not sparing her - because I can't think of any.

@Beniboybling:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So he (may have) stopped the storm from consuming one person, it changes nothing lol.

And the point is that you have no proof such a power would be effective against powerhouses of Yoda & Sidious' caliber.

If he can stop the "storm" from consuming one person, than he has more control over its "targets" than you assumed.

And, woohoo, you have no "proof" that any power of Sidious or Yoda would be effective against such "powerhouses" as Nihilus or Vitiate. If you want to turn this into a happy denial festivity, I instantly win, because - unlike Sidious and Yoda - Vitiate and Nihilus have killed rather many force users with their force abilities.

That aside: You have, once more, ignored the point. While the Drain may or may not (I ain't sure) kill the likes of Yoda and Sidious, it would certainly require that they defend themselves against it. And that's the point where Vitiate could fire away with another "area attack" (e.g. the lightning storm he utilized against the Jedi Strike Team coming for him). And I found it questionable that Yoda and Sidious would still be standing after that.

The other way around, Yoda lacks the offensive abilities to deal with the team, while I also don't see Sidious taking out people with the Force here. So, as I already said: Yoda and Sidious would probably win this in a melee, but I don't see how they'd win a "wizard duel" (aka force contest) against the Sith duo.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5335148-nihilus.png

I know this is just Marr speculating to herself, but it implies he did indeed spare her.

If you read the page before that, you'd know that Marr's speculation also implies he came down to the planet to finish her off, but decided not to.

You mean this?


That might just be him coming to take her as his apprentice.

So are people thinking that Visas survived the drain on her own merits?

Because I'm pretty sure she didn't, Nihilus obviously spared her. Theres no other way she could have survived the attack.

Only a fool would argue that Nihilus didn't spare Visas(a being who sees through the Force)

@Nai you agree with me?
Also you are a great debater...
Wished to tell you that...

Originally posted by NewGuy01
If you read the page before that, you'd know that Marr's speculation also implies he came down to the planet to finish her off, but decided not to.

I seriously wonder how Visas's speculation matters, when she gets served facts on the next page.

Originally posted by Nai
If he can stop the "storm" from consuming one person, than he has more control over its "targets" than you assumed.I never suggested he lacked control, merely that he wasn't siphoning the energies of the planet and people individually.I lol'ed.I reckon they'd manage, yeah.And we are all surprised.

That was poor Beni.

It reflects my interest in this debate.

I can understand that, but Nai is pretty deserving of full-hearted reply. On the contrary however, Lady Tano clearly takes precedence.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I never suggested he lacked control, merely that he wasn't siphoning the energies of the planet and people individually.


He apparently was. How else spare people individually?



That was the point.



How?



By me granting Yoda and Sidious melee victory? Thought so.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I can understand that, but Nai is pretty deserving of full-hearted reply. On the contrary however, Lady Tano clearly takes precedence. No, he isn't.

Is Bling Bling Boy, Yeo Bean's alias on Space Battle Forums?
Their debate style is very similar, TBH.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, he isn't.
Is Beniboy, Yeo Bean on Spacebattle Forums?

I see either pulling a win. Yoda's the weak link here Force wise, and Vitiate being the MVP in this area already gives team 1 an advantage. If either of team 2's members could close the gap, I see team 1 going down. However, Nihilus isn't distributing his power to hold together the Ravager, so his TK will be monstrous. I can see him at the very least slowing Sheev were he to attempt a melee assault, if not stop him outright. I also see him dominating Yoda with it if he put full effort into it. With this in mind, I give team 1 the solid majority, seeing as it would realistically be a Force battle.

Nihilus dominating Yoda? lmfao

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nihilus dominating Yoda? lmfao
Why don't you place your spirit into a Bith's body?
Their massive intelligence (because of their voluminous brain and skull) helps you, you know?...

It's not exactly ideal to lambaste others for things that you lack, you know?

Sidious is canonically more powerful than Nihilus, and he failed to dominate Yoda. Case closed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not exactly ideal to lambaste others for things that you lack, you know?

Sidious is canonically more powerful than Nihilus, and he failed to dominate Yoda. Case closed.
Canonically Sidious is the most powerful Sith of the Banite line. And his power relates to his Sith knowledge, not Force strength. That's the key of the Banite Lords. Each Sith becomes more knowledgeable(powerful) with each generation.
So, yeah. Sidious still doesn't beat Nihilus or Valkorion.
And this is the same for Yoda as well(only 1000 years old)
And Sidious' trumps come from his knowledge and galactic conquest. Also because his brain was far effective at taking the galaxy rather than the TOR era Sith Lords' unfathomable powers.
But nice try, though. (Y)
Impressive, most impressive.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nihilus dominating Yoda? lmfao
Why not?

Darth Nihilus is a stupendously powerful and dangerous Force-user.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Canonically Sidious is the most powerful Sith of the Banite line. And his power relates to his Sith knowledge, not Force strength. That's the key of the Banite Lords. Each Sith becomes more knowledgeable(powerful) with each generation.
So, yeah. Sidious still doesn't beat Nihilus or Valkorion.
And this is the same for Yoda as well(only 1000 years old)
And Sidious' trumps come from his knowledge and galactic conquest. Also because his brain was far effective at taking the galaxy rather than the TOR era Sith Lords' unfathomable powers.
But nice try, though. (Y)
Impressive, most impressive.

Didn't see one thing that related to my point. That you managed to type up all of this with no relevance to the post that you quoted might be a world record.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not?

Darth Nihilus is a stupendously powerful and dangerous Force-user.

And Yoda isn't?

Originally posted by SunRazer
And Yoda isn't?
Of-course he is.

But Darth Nihilus is an instrument of hunger and one of the greatest masters of Force Drain and Force Sever applications. This is why he is extremely dangerous in a versus scenario.

While the two chug boulders, cars and trees at each other, expect Darth Nihilus to siphon life-force of Yoda all along until the latter is compromised.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Didn't see one thing that related to my point. That you managed to type up all of this with no relevance to the post that you quoted might be a world record.



And Yoda isn't?

1. That Yoda's triumph was not such a BIG VICTORY! And that Sidious is highly elevated to a god-like status because of these statements.
2. No, he isn't. An aberration that easily holds a 1,3 km ship and even weakened he did it. You don't understand the magnitude of his power. We didn't even get to see Darth Nihilus' limits in terms of Force strength. And keep in mind he TK'ed with relative ease the Ravager before he started to eat planets.
Clearly, I don't see how Yoda even has the slightest chance to compete with Nihilus' stupid Force strength.
Sw Legends stop. Yoda doesn't have the power to compete with Nihilus in terms of Force strength.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious is canonically more powerful than Nihilus, and he failed to dominate Yoda. Case closed.

Does that count as "logical argument" somewhere in a galaxy far, far away? Because it certainly doesn't here.

a)
That Sidious is more powerful than Nihilus (which can easily be argued - but let us not get down that path) doesn't mean that he is superior in every imagineable way. So Nihilus' "force drain" might pose a greater threat than Sidious force lightning. Which is entirely irrelevant. Because:

b)
Why would two individuals who made a point of utilizing area affect attacks against opposing groups (especially Vitiate - against his own Dark Council, against the Jedi Strike team) attempt to take down opponents in some duellist fashion? And:

c)
I wonder why people always fall back to hasty generalizations and A>B>C-arguments. The only Dark Sider on the level of Nihilus or Vitiate (possible) that Yoda confronted, was Sidious. While Sidious has never faced another powerful Dark Sider in combat. So one really has to wonder, how Yoda and Sidious suddenly become "immune" to rather elaborated and large scale dark side powers, utilzed by two individuals who "ate planets", based on the notion of them being "more powerful" than their opponents.

I think Nai's argument is pretty rock solid. Even assuming Team 2 can defend themselves from Nihilus' drain, which is a flat out baseless assumption, there's no way they can do that and survive against what Vitiate can throw at them at the same time.

That said, you're a bit out of date Nai, Sidious fought Mother Talzin in Son of Dathomir. He didn't perform that spectacularly though so take it how you want.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That said, you're a bit out of date Nai, Sidious fought Mother Talzin in Son of Dathomir. He didn't perform that spectacularly though so take it how you want.

I was thinking about "Sith" when I wrote "Dark Siders". I'm very well aware of that incident and, yes, he didn't perform that spectacularly, which could be seen as evidence for the idea, that he doesn't do as good against other Dark Side user, than he does against Jedi (with Mace Windu, utilizing the dark side as a weapon for the light with Vaapad, being a prime example).

K.

For once it would be nice imo, for there to be a Force duel where the characters actually use the supposed crazy levels of force knowledge and techniques they have. Instead of the few basic attacks over and over.

Originally posted by Nephthys
For once it would be nice imo, for there to be a Force duel where the characters actually use the supposed crazy levels of force knowledge and techniques they have. Instead of the few basic attacks over and over.

I agree. But then, the special effects department probably doesn't.

Originally posted by Nai
Does that count as "logical argument" somewhere in a galaxy far, far away? Because it certainly doesn't here.

a)
That Sidious is more powerful than Nihilus (which can easily be argued - but let us not get down that path) doesn't mean that he is superior in every imagineable way. So Nihilus' "force drain" might pose a greater threat than Sidious force lightning. Which is entirely irrelevant. Because: b)
Why would two individuals who made a point of utilizing area affect attacks against opposing groups (especially Vitiate - against his own Dark Council, against the Jedi Strike team) attempt to take down opponents in some duellist fashion? And: c)
I wonder why people always fall back to hasty generalizations and A>B>C-arguments. The only Dark Sider on the level of Nihilus or Vitiate (possible) that Yoda confronted, was Sidious. While Sidious has never faced another powerful Dark Sider in combat. So one really has to wonder, how Yoda and Sidious suddenly become "immune" to rather elaborated and large scale dark side powers, utilzed by two individuals who "ate planets", based on the notion of them being "more powerful" than their opponents.
Nai have you read my posts?
Sidious is nowhere a top-tier. At best he's around the level of a Dark Councilor, or less. Sidious' greatest power and statements come from his military power and galactic dominance

lmfao

Nihilus is nowhere near top-tier, either. I mean, he's below even MW Revan and all the Ancient Sith, and his greatest power and statements come from hyperbole and the fact that the galaxy was in ruins during his prime, hurr durr

Is this a joke? Are people really arguing Nihilus > Sidious?? I'm ****ing hanging myself

Well, there's still people who believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth and that the Earth is flat, so...

And that I think, is the inherent problem with your line of thought Sunrazer. Those who believe Sheev isn't 'zeh most powerful' are not synonymous with the Flat earth Society, rather that they're heretics of an ancient religion. It is pretty much your own opinion that Sidious is the most powerful based of dubious claims that are failable, and mostly out of date.

Not at all. I've accepted the idea that Vitiate might just be excluded from the quotes (though I presented my reason for otherwise in that thread where I still haven't had a reponse), but Nihilus? No. Some of the quotes are published after his existence, and the fact that numerous authors in numerous sources across decades have supported the notion means that it's one of the most ingrained facts of all SW lore.

As for flat earth society - that's synonymous to the "political power" arguments, when there's some quotes that blatantly refer to mastery of the dark side, lol.

That is wrong. The idea that sheev is the most powerful, is pretty much down to the personal opinion if a historian who was :

1) Alive during the rise of the Empire
2) Would likely be taking things other than dark-side power into consideration

1. It's down to numerous sources, over enough of a period and written by enough out-of-universe authors that I can take it at face value.

2. Right.

Well, in that case, I supose I'll ask you to provide evidence of which statements and quotes you think make Palpatine the most powerful sith lord in history, and we can go about ticking off the assumptions and contradictions from there.

Tomorrow. It's getting close to midnight here and I have to be up early.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lmfao

Nihilus is nowhere near top-tier, either. I mean, he's below even MW Revan and all the Ancient Sith, and his greatest power and statements come from hyperbole and the fact that the galaxy was in ruins during his prime, hurr durr
Did you read what I said to you?
Nihilus killed worlds with his Hunger to grow stronger and sustain his essence.
And it was him mostly who brought the Jedi Order almost to four Jedi.
Not to mention his monstrous TK.
All Sidious' statements relate to his knowledge and political power.
Do you even Star Wars with comprehension?
Do you understand that it required a plot to weaken him indirectly and a Wound in the Force and a dead world and a Miraluka to sunder their Force bond!?
Not to mention that Traya had no knowledge of him TKing the Ravager nor how many worlds he devoured of their Force energies.
Her statement of him being below the ancient Sith is because he became a slave-to his Hunger and it mastered him instead of mastering it.
Not to mention that we have straight statements that reveal us he got that Hunger from the Mass Shadow Generator. Kreia saying he was using some ancient Sith draining technique it was her pure opinion because we know that there's Vitiate's ritual which essentially did the same thing or when the Sith on Dxun prepared to devour Freedon Nadd's tomb dark side nexus. So there are certain ways to achieve Nihilus' Hunger; but it requires a lot of Force strength and long day rituals. Not to mention that Vitiate's ritual on Ziost had not the same impact it had on Nathema. So even Valkorion's Nathema is a singular event. Though, Vitiate managing to pull off a ritual by himself after Nathema in a disembodied form in a few moments speak volume to his power.
Letting aside the "lulz statements", Valkorion is approaching Darth Nihilus' heights of power.
Note: YEAH VITIATE WANKERS!!! Nihilus>Vitiate. But Vitiate is quickly coming to Nihilus in terms of Force strength.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Tomorrow. It's getting close to midnight here and I have to be up early.
I challenge you to do that. I could debunk these Darth Sidious' statements with the simple press of a keyboard button.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Is this a joke? Are people really arguing Nihilus > Sidious?? I'm ****ing hanging myself
if you could provide evidence to be otherwise; it'd be just fine.
But I doubt that there's any...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not at all. I've accepted the idea that Vitiate might just be excluded from the quotes (though I presented my reason for otherwise in that thread where I still haven't had a reponse), but Nihilus? No.


Not that it even matters here, which you could have seen, if you had read my argument instead of wasting your time with the one being not supporting your opinion that you easily swat down because of his stupi...oh. I see the point.



*yawn*
What "notion" would that be? Sidious being the most powerful Sith?
It's the most ingrained facts of all SW lore, that either doesn't take rather many Sith into account in the first place, limits itself to the movie universe, or is given through statements of in-universe characters.
Yeah..."Fact."...LOL



To my knowledge there is specifically one quote (from a source only considering movie related stuff) that refers to his mastery in the Dark Side - and not even that. It calls him "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith powers", which he certainly was in the movie only universe. That's like looking into this thread, ignoring all posters not named after SW characters and conclude Freedon Nadd is the best debater here.

Several of your arguments revolve around the idea that claims from (certain) C-canon sources must be isolated to the material that the source covers, even if the claim specifically refers to history. Because, well, you don't want it to apply to history. The thing is, though, we don't need to rebut that. Because it's a made-up rule.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Nai have you read my posts?
Sidious is nowhere a top-tier. At best he's around the level of a Dark Councilor, or less. Sidious' greatest power and statements come from his military power and galactic dominance

Good god man, take your tongue out of Nai's ass hole. It's very evident no one gives a shit what you have to say, wanker.

It's true though that "encyclopedias" and what not should take less precedence than feats. In Marvel Odin is weaker than Thor according to some guides but in comics that's not true. Ofc if the guides are backed up by the main canon like in Palpatines case then it's aight. Js that those against Palps quotes do have a legit argument.

I like how Freedon Nadd thinks he's anywhere near a quality debaters.

He makes DD look like Silver2467 by comparison.

Originally posted by Trocity
Good god man, take your tongue out of Nai's ass hole. It's very evident no one gives a shit what you have to say, wanker.
Your words about me means nothing to me. Yeah; the Sidious or PT/OT wankers give no shit because they can't block my arguments.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I like how Freedon Nadd thinks he's anywhere near a quality debaters.

He makes DD look like Silver2467 by comparison.
Taking on people without reason it isn't the trait of a quality debater.
And that's all you have. Cheap words without evidence.

Nadd do you agree with me that Ommin is Palpatine level and Warb is Vader level?

There really is a limit to how much cancer you can take.