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All-out fight
Takes place in the palace courtyard on Mandalore {as depicted in TCW 5.16 "The Lawless"}
Revan!Vitiate, peak!Kun, KOTOR!Malak; ROTJ!Sidious, War!Krayt, peak!Maul
Legends & canon feats apply

Team 2 probably. Incredibly close fight though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Team 2 probably. Incredibly close fight though.

thx

Was originally going to be Vitiate/Kun/Bandon v. Sidious/Starkiller/Maul, but the committee opted for this one instead.

Looking forward to a good debate here.

Who's going to seriously side in favor of Team 1 besides LeGenD?

Mm, yeah. Team 2 has this in the bag.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Who's going to seriously side in favor of Team 1 besides LeGenD?

I'd say any of the usual suspects could take a stab: LeGenD, Beefy, Nai, Neph, you, etc.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Who's going to seriously side in favor of Team 1 besides LeGenD?

Nai, certainly. Hopefully Neph too, to get discussion going.

I was going to side with team 1 but then I remembered that Malak is worthless and would get pwned by anyone.

Were I to argue though, I'd say Kun holds off Sidious, Malak distracts Maul and Vitiate beats Krayt. Then Vitiate mops up the thread by punting Maul out and ganging up on Sheev.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say Kun holds off Sidious
mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was going to side with team 1 but then I remembered that Malak is worthless and would get pwned by anyone.

Were I to argue though, I'd say Kun holds off Sidious, Malak distracts Maul and Vitiate beats Krayt. Then Vitiate mops up the thread by punting Maul out and ganging up on Sheev.

Do you think you could make that case?

I just did.

You gave an opinion tbh.

So did everyone else.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was going to side with team 1 but then I remembered that Malak is worthless and would get pwned by anyone.

Were I to argue though, I'd say Kun holds off Sidious, Malak distracts Maul and Vitiate beats Krayt. Then Vitiate mops up the thread by punting Maul out and ganging up on Sheev.

That's a rather specific organization; any thought as to why they'd go for those matchups in particular?

Also, no one else claimed to have made a case as of yet.

Because Neph said so, obviously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So did everyone else.

No shit. But you said you originally opted for team 1 but decided against it. Then you said "if you were to argue," you'd say x. I'm asking you if you think you could make that case.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's a rather specific organization; any thought as to why they'd go for those matchups in particular?

Also, no one else claimed to have made a case as of yet.

Sidious likes rushing his opponents and Kun would probably go for the strongest guy he could. It makes sense that they'd engage each other quickly. Though if it's the other way around, Vitiate is just as capable of holding off Sidious while Kun blasts Krayt's nuts in. Maul and Malak fighting makes sense because they're both small fry.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No shit. But you said you originally opted for team 1 but decided against it. Then you said "if you were to argue," you'd say x. I'm asking you if you think you could make that case.

I didn't say I decided against it. And yeah, I could make that case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious likes rushing his opponents and Kun would probably go for the strongest guy he could. It makes sense that they'd engage each other quickly. Though if it's the other way around, Vitiate is just as capable of holding off Sidious while Kun blasts Krayt's nuts in. Maul and Malak fighting makes sense because they're both small fry.

To recap: you're saying either Kun/Vitiate can hold off Sheev, and either would beat Krayt, and while Malak < Maul, it's not to the extent to influence the overall fight?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say I decided against it. And yeah, I could make that case.

mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
To recap: you're saying either Kun/Vitiate can hold off Sheev, and either would beat Krayt, and while Malak < Maul, it's not to the extent to influence the overall fight?

Yes.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm

You guys were practically begging me to, pussy.

...then why are you hesitating to side with team 1? mmm

I like to keep the opposition off balance. State that I think my team would lose, then contradict myself in the next sentence and pwn them with my epic argument opinions and boundless charisma. You're so puzzlefoxed, you haven't even seen the steely jaws of the unbreakable logic trap I've set up in plain sight, under all of your big fat ****ing noses.

intriguing

I mean, I wouldn't mind seeing an argument for team 1 winning, I just see it as really unlikely.

Originally posted by ILS
I mean, I wouldn't mind seeing an argument for team 1 winning, I just see it as really unlikely.
LMFAO.

Novel Vitiate only? Krayt can probably kill him in a tough fight

Originally posted by Nephthys
I like to keep the opposition off balance. State that I think my team would lose, then contradict myself in the next sentence and pwn them with my epic argument opinions and boundless charisma. You're so puzzlefoxed, you haven't even seen the steely jaws of the unbreakable logic trap I've set up in plain sight, under all of your big fat ****ing noses.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd say any of the usual suspects could take a stab: LeGenD, Beefy, Nai, Neph, you, etc.

I'm hurt

When pairing people I normally go by the order in which posted. So Sidious would fight vitiate, Krayt fights ken and Malak fights maul.

I'd say team 2.

Team 2 wins.

I honestly thought this was going to be a much more contentious and engaging match.

No one is willing to stand up for the ancients here?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I honestly thought this was going to be a much more contentious and engaging match.

No one is willing to stand up for the ancients here?
If that was SWTOR Game! Vitiate and RotS! Sidious than we have a fight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I honestly thought this was going to be a much more contentious and engaging match.

No one is willing to stand up for the ancients here? I know there are some fanatics on this board but I think even they know when their side doesn't really have a chance.

No, they certainly do. Probably just can't be asked or havn't logged on yet.

Hopefully they'll get to it.

Originally posted by Stigma
If that was SWTOR Game! Vitiate and RotS! Sidious than we have a fight.

Well I was thinking that these two depictions are the most analogous in function. Orcus on His Throne and all that.

Sidious>Vitiate
Krayt>Kun
Maul>Malak

Originally posted by Trocity
Sidious>Vitiate
Krayt>Kun
Maul>Malak

Krayt isn't above Kun. Look at how much trouble Muur gave Krayt, and Kun is stated to be greater than any of the Exiles, even Pall who's > Muur. So is Vitiate. Either could take him down with their superior Force powers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayt isn't above Kun. Look at how much trouble Muur's spirit in the body of another Jedi gave a weakened and non-prime Krayt. This isn't relevant ofc, I just like typing

Fixed.

Seems to me spirits are usually weaker when possessing bodies, ala Ragnos and maybe Talzin. Muur was pretty strongly touted as being above Vader and Krayt or at least on their levels. Even though Krayt grew more powerful, he didn't reach the levels of people like Vitiate or Kun.

Kun and Vitiate are pretty solidly better than him anyway in terms of power, going by showings and accolades.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Revan!Vitiate, peak!Kun, KOTOR!Malak; ROTJ!Sidious, War!Krayt, peak!Maul
Legends & canon feats apply


Since Vitiate is probably the most powerful person up there, he can take out any of the opposite trio. Kun can probably take on Sidious himself and do the same with Krayt and he would demolish Maul. Malak doesn't have much of a chance against either Sidious or Krayt and I'm not certain that he could defeat Maul in a lightsaber fight. He could probably defeat him with the force though.

While I consider this a close match, there is much more speaking for Team 1, namely:


Vitiate's mind-control, that could instantly "turn" or tKO the entirety of the opposite team (at least Maul)
Vitiate's ability to summon a combination of force lightning / mind domination in room-size in a combat situation, which could also tKO the entire team (and would definitely take down Maul).
Kun's amulet blasts / Sith Magic, that could tKO any of the opposite team - at the very least Maul.


So team one wins by virtue of having more offensive force potential and some potential "instant win" abilities up its sleeves.

Originally posted by Nai
Kun would demolish Maul.

Malak I'm not certain that he could defeat Maul in a lightsaber fight. He could probably defeat him with the force though.

Vitiate's mind-control, that could instantly "turn" or tKO the entirety of the opposite team (at least Maul)

Vitiate's ability to summon a combination of force lightning / mind domination in room-size in a combat situation would definitely take down Maul.

Kun's amulet blasts / Sith Magic, that could tKO Maul.I'd ask that you substantiate Vitiate and Kun's ability to oneshot Maul with evidence. As for Malak, again I'd love to hear an argument for him beating Maul with the Force.

I think we're agreed he has no chance at beating him in a lightsaber duel, fortunately.

Lol, Vitiate one-shot Revan. What's Maul gonna do?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, Vitiate one-shot Revan.
Since he charged up his energies and was aided by preparation and a nexus.

Though, Vitiate can probably definitely TP one-shot Maul, tbh.

Originally posted by ILS
As for Malak, again I'd love to hear an argument for him beating Maul with the Force.

I think we're agreed he has no chance at beating him in a lightsaber duel, fortunately.
Heh. Well thing with Malak is, like I said yesterday, you should accept implication, hype, and authorial intent when factoring him into a debate to properly assess his character given his limited showings. You don't need to, of course, and what you got then is someone like Nephthys. Nephthys isn't necessary wrong in his assessments of Darth Malak since he looks everything at direct face-value without taking into consideration anything else, but even besides the fact that in doing such is enormous double-standards, it's not really fair and clearly not what Darth Malak was worked out to be when creating his character.

Darth Malak was designed as someone who is clearly able to challenge beings on the playing field of Revan, and is even a better duelist than Revan Reborn (novel Revan incarnation). I sincerely doubt you could say the same for Darth Maul unless we are purely factoring in technical skill with a lightsaber. He has Force powers that has labeled him as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history and is believed by many to have even surpassed Darth Revan - who is enormously powerful in his own right. I have a hard time believing Darth Maul is going to be able to defend against Darth Malak's telekinetic assaults that are instantly overcoming midgame!Revan, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, or his Force Stasis fields which are also ridiculously powerful. He also has considerable Force Drain and Force Lightning that should be able to tip the tide as well.

The Emperor was already channeling his energies before Revan realized what was happening. Plus, preparation could allow the Emperor to have quicker access to his reserves, tbh.

I feel that much is besides the point though, given the Emperor's non-charged lightning is still capable of stopping Revan dead in his tracks. Maul obviously doesn't stand a chance.

Originally posted by ILS
I'd ask that you substantiate Vitiate and Kun's ability to oneshot Maul with evidence.


Help yourself for Kun. Vitiate? Seriously? The guy leveled a strike team consisting of some of the most powerful Jedi in the Galaxy - including the HoT and turned the likes of Revan and Malak into his personal slaves with his mind domination. Maul is going to do what exactly? I'm not even sure that Sidious can shrug that off, but Maul...? Pff.



Malak has force choked and electrocuted several Jedi at once - and he was capable of holding up Revan for a brief period of time, even if he finally was defeated by his former comrade.



I wonder how you translated my "I'm not certain" regarding Malak's chance to win a lightsaber fight against Maul into "We agree that he has no chance." Again: He was capable of keeping up with Revan over a certain period of time, even if he happily admits he is inferior to his former comrade, after being defeated by him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Emperor was already channeling his energies before Revan realized what was happening. Plus, preparation could allow the Emperor to have quicker access to his reserves, tbh.

I feel that much is besides the point though, given the Emperor's non-charged lightning is still capable of stopping Revan dead in his tracks. Maul obviously doesn't stand a chance.

Revan demonstrates instant reactions earlier and considering his fabled battle precog and obvious genius, I highly doubt he just watched as Vitiate gathered his power like a zombie. Lol at him doing it before Revan knew what he was doing, he was looking right at him. Vitiate would have a merest edge on him in terms of gathered power. And no it wouldn't, you're just making shit up again.

Yes. Vitiate can also mindfvck him and ragdoll him. Or attack him with sorcery. It's utterly wrong-headed to think that Maul stands a chance at not being one-shot considering Sidious could ragdoll he and Savage at once and Vitiate is close to Sheev.

The dark side nexus of Kaas affected Revan's senses abilities (allegedly, at least). Agree to disagree on the other points.

On a dark side nexus, Vitiate should clearly be able to summon energies faster and more intense than Revan though.

But yeah.

Sidious - Vitiate fight is the one that matters most and it ends in team 2's favor. Also, Maul would defeat Malak so the only advantage team 1 has is Kun's slight superiority over Krayt which isn't enough to grant team 1 a victory.

Team 2 wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Seems to me spirits are usually weaker when possessing bodies, ala Ragnos and maybe Talzin.

Is this part of your "keeping the opponent off balance" play? Because as I recall, in our last Muur discussion, you strongly advocated the exact opposite in the case of Celeste.

Originally posted by Sinious
Sidious - Vitiate fight is the one that matters most and it ends in team 2's favor.


I seriously wonder how that is going to happen. Vitiate is the embodyment of the power of several thousand Sith Lords, crammed into a single entity that makes the air flicker around it with its accumulated Dark Side energy. I really don't see a single reason, why Vitiate shouldn't be able to one-shot Sidious. After all, he has done that to the collective Dark Council in a single force attack before...



Again, one can only wonder how that should work. Maul maybe has an advantage on Malak in sabers. And that's a big "maybe". In the Force, Maul doesn't even register next to Malak.



"Slight superiority"? Funny stuff. Also thank you for providing an argument against Vitiate mind dominating the entire opposing team, smiting them with room sized lightning or watching while Kun blasts them apart.



If you can give me a reason why and tell me how, I might believe that...

Originally posted by Nai
I really don't see a single reason, why Vitiate shouldn't be able to one-shot Sidious.




Oh wait, he's serious.

Originally posted by Nai
I seriously wonder how that is going to happen. Vitiate is the embodyment of the power of several thousand Sith Lords, crammed into a single entity that makes the air flicker around it with its accumulated Dark Side energy. I really don't see a single reason, why Vitiate shouldn't be able to one-shot Sidious. After all, he has done that to the collective Dark Council in a single force attack before...
If that was the case, then he would be immune anything Revan did to him and should've been able to overwhelm him with his half ass lightning strikes, he logically wouldn't need to charge a more concentrated attack.

Sidious is a much more powerful and faster opponent than the Revan Vitiate faced. Not to mention, unlike Revan, Sidious is a top tier duelist(possibly the best duelist in the mythos) and would be able to kill Vitiate very easily should the gap between them close.

Malak is almost featless in the force department and doesn't even come close to Maul in dueling. Maul has rivaled with some of the best duelists in the mythos, what has Malak that is comparable to Maul's feats?

Just because they have those powers doesn't mean that they can just abuse them till victory. I can easily reflect that flawed logic back at you and ask you to provide an argument against Sidious speed blitzing Vitiate.



Simply better feats and accolades.

Personally I see it like this. Both characters vitiate and Sidious are extremely powerful and are both renowned as the most powerful sith the universe has ever seen. So is kun. However at the end of the day Sidious beats both. Mr. Nai. Your argument that Vitiate is the embodiment of thousands of Sith Lords. While I agree that is true, Darth Bane created the Rule of Two due to that reason. Why share all the secrets and have several sith competing for the top spot why not know all the secrets and pass it down to one. Sidious is the embodiment of generations of sith which have mastered not only techniques from vitiates era, but many other eras of sith, and not just sith Jedi as well. Sidious not only mastered all of these abilities he created abilities to his pleasure. Also wasn't Sidious a nexus by himself or he created a nexus once he died in ROTJ.

Also one thing I would like to point out, no one is possessing Sidious or one shooting him. Sidious having the title most powerful Sith Lord of all time, being the embodiment of darkness, being called the shadow, someone described as basically being darkness and the darkness just wanting to burst, sow own with that power isn't going to get killed by one shot even if it is fully charged. He isn't getting mind controlled or anything else. He's too powerful.

Originally posted by Sinious
Malak is almost featless in the force department
> Character is featless if they don't have PT level showcasing.

Originally posted by Sinious
doesn't even come close to Maul in dueling. Maul has rivaled with some of the best duelists in the mythos, what has Malak that is comparable to Maul's feats?
Rivaling "some of the best duelists in the mythos."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
> Character is featless if they don't have PT level showcasing.


Enlighten us. Darth Malak doesn't get his SF amp here so what has he done without it to suggest that he can defeat Maul in a pure force fight?



Names, please. Maul has actual showings against impressive opponents.

One-shotting midgame!Revan with the Force twice and being so powerful that his mere thoughts cause disturbances in the Force that can be felt sectors away, perhaps?

There's this guy named Darth Revan who comes to mind. And this girl named Bastila Shan. mmm Must be nothing, never-mind.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

One-shotting midgame!Revan with the Force twice and being so powerful that his mere thoughts cause disturbances in the Force that can be felt sectors away, perhaps? He incapacitated him in stasis if that is what you mean and the latter is barely combat applicable. Maul has humiliated Kenobi on multiple instances, took out small armies and has proven himself to be very capable with TK. I don't think Malak is a weakling because he is underexposed but to suggest that Malak is far superior to Maul is ridiculous.
Malak lost to Revan twice and mentioning Bastila when comparing someone to Maul is an insult.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"some of the best duelists in the mythos."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Bastila Shan.

Yeah, overcoming and incapacitating a Force-user through the Force is defined as one-shot. He did it with a gesture too.

LMFAO WHAT? Telekinesis is not combat applicable?

EDIT: Or are you talking about his presence feat?

I don't recall any instances where he "humiliated" him besides the time Kenobi was extremely injured and barely could stand.
Maul has used the Force on him mid-fight when Kenobi had two blades, sure, but if anything it only further aided Kenobi's victory.


With the aid of a figure who is TKing Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi combined.


... and Malak hasn't?


I think only Nai thinks he is "far superior." And even then, it's not as ridiculous as you make it out.


And gave him a brutal battle both fights.

I'm mainly referencing his duel against Darth Revan where he pushed the Dark Lord into desperation.

I would put that incarnation above Revan above Maul or Kenobi. You wouldn't?


Maul has been challenged by Pre Viszla.

Bastila Shan is one of the most powerful Jedi of her age with incredible telepathy and healing Force powers, and is also a high-end master of her lightsaber form according to KotORCG. Some sources even place her directly on tier with the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi himself. She's not one of the best duelists in the mythos, but given the nature of how easily Malak bested her, it's enormously impressive.

Darth Malak beat her in like twenty seconds.

Bastilla in that same source was even said to be in the same tier as Count Dooku of all people. Not saying she;s on par with him or that Malak can beat someone on Dooku's caliber in the same amount of time, but that's something to think about.

Team 1 in a good fight.

@TheMerchant - That same source suggested that Malak's cybernetics might have made him far more powerful than Nadd and Kun, which is beyond laughable. Instant loss of credibility.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Yeah, overcoming and incapacitating a Force-user through the Force is defined as one-shot. He did it with a gesture too.
He temporarily incapacitated him and then ran off. Am I not recalling it correctly?

Yeah.



Darth Maul has used TK to gain advantage in combat on multiple occasions against both Kenobi and others, not just when he caught Kenobi before he killed Satine if that is what you are referring to.

Savage is not as powerful as Maul unless he is enraged and even if he were enraged there, taking out half the army they took care of is still more impressive than anything Malak has done in combat and therefor trying to lowball the feat cause of Savage is illogical.

lol

He lost half of his face in the first time and repeatedly lost in the second time even though he was amped. Maul was able to fight with Mace Windu and Aayla at the same time and still managed to push back. He fought Qui-Gon Jinn and apprentice Kenobi at the same time and defeated them.

Just look at Savage Oppress' feats as even they outshine Malak's yet look how easily Maul disarms Savage in close combat. Imagine what he could do to Malak once the gap is closed.



Definitely not in sabers.




Various explanations can be made for the Pre Viszla vs Maul fight. Are you seriously gonna use that to try to lowball Maul?

Disarming Savage in 2 seconds is a lot more impressive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm mainly referencing his duel against Darth Revan where he pushed the Dark Lord into desperation.

Just because the fight was described as desperate doesn't mean Revan was desperate. When used in this context, the term merely suggests extreme intensity or passion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@TheMerchant - That same source suggested that Malak's cybernetics might have made him far more powerful than Nadd and Kun, which is beyond laughable. Instant loss of credibility.

Also, anybody who actually believes Bastila's on the same tier as Dooku in combat has some serious issues in determining and comparing feats, or some severe bias. Sure, quotes are one thing, but a brain is also necessary to decipher information, otherwise we could be settling for Dooku is more powerful than Sidious. Some things just aren't logical in the slightest - and the WotC quote is one of those things. Malak being "far superior" to Maul not being ridiculous is another.

To be fair, Malak is more powerful than Nihilus though.

?

Meetra said that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than anyone she'd ever met, which would include Nihilus. Darth Malak was able to Darth Revan totally shit his pants in terror in a "desperate" fight and Darth Revan was more powerful than his renegade Jedi incarnation. Thus Malak is far more powerful than Nihilus, Sadow and Kun.

Ant:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Heh. Well thing with Malak is, like I said yesterday, you should accept implication, hype, and authorial intent when factoring him into a debate to properly assess his character given his limited showings. You don't need to, of course, and what you got then is someone like Nephthys. Nephthys isn't necessary wrong in his assessments of Darth Malak since he looks everything at direct face-value without taking into consideration anything else, but even besides the fact that in doing such is enormous double-standards, it's not really fair and clearly not what Darth Malak was worked out to be when creating his character.

That's fine, you just need to remember to provide "implications" that genuinely imply something, hype that is genuinely meaningful, and authorial intent that well.. is authorial intent and not just you suggesting it might be.



Depends on what Revan you're referring to, but I really don't care for your assessment that Malak is a Revan villain and therefore he's by necessity above Maul - especially when you consider that Malak has had his jaw taken off by Darth Revan and lost to KotoR!Revan while he himself was enormously amped and had some Jedi lunchboxes to draw on, opposed to Revan who was massively weakened (and by your own admission, not even able to draw on the Force too effectively due to the nexus hindering his ability to use Force powers).

It's just a faulty argument.


Which most certainly goes in favour of the guy who performs hundreds of thousands of lightsaber maneuvers every day just as training.


If your argument is that Malak has a "best in history" accolade and Maul doesn't, so Malak is superior; concede immediately that both Malak, Revan and anyone else who lacks a "best of history" lightsaber accolade, is below Maul by necessity, because he has plenty of them.

That said that's pretty stupid. Most people can be considered the most powerful in history; there tends to be a ****ton of competition.

Explain to me why Malak is more powerful than Darth Revan off of the Star Forge.


Make your argument for Malak being powerful enough to subdue Maul. Is "midgame!Revan" more powerful than Maul?

Also, explain to me why I should care about his lightning or drain.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meetra said that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than anyone she'd ever met, which would include Nihilus. Darth Malak was able to Darth Revan totally shit his pants in terror in a "desperate" fight and Darth Revan was more powerful than his renegade Jedi incarnation. Thus Malak is far more powerful than Nihilus, Sadow and Kun.

I see.

Also, Malak has a metal jaw.

Well that would help.

So where do you stand on this fight, Neph?

I think an argument can be made for either side, actually. I think Vitiate and Kun can fight with Sidious for an extensive period of time and either can defeat Krayt in about as easily as Vitiate beat Revan. Malak is inferior to Maul, but would he lose before or after Krayt would lose? And would it even matter? Could Maul actually contribute to a fight against Vitiate and Kun? Vitiate's mental abilities are also a potent factor to consider.

Lastly, although we all prefer to just pair up everyone, the concept of teamwork could be considered. Team 2 is probably a more cohesive combination, but Vitiate would work well by spamming Force powers behind some meat shields.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meetra said that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than anyone she'd ever met, which would include Nihilus. Darth Malak was able to Darth Revan totally shit his pants in terror in a "desperate" fight and Darth Revan was more powerful than his renegade Jedi incarnation. Thus Malak is far more powerful than Nihilus, Sadow and Kun.

Assuming Meetra considers Nihilus strong in the Force despite believing and being told precisely the opposite for a year, even saying as much herself. Neither Meetra or Traya consider Nihilus genuinely powerful, they consider him a dead end and an abomination.

Nai-



I'm not going to respond to a short essay, just make your argument.

For the strike team, correct me if I'm wrong here; but didn't Vitiate increase in power after the Revan novel?

For turning Revan and Malak; I recall that happened on a large dark side nexus, which Vitiate would be considerably amped by while Revan and Malak would be considerably affected by it.

I'm basically asking you: what can Vitiate as of the Revan novel do off of a dark side nexus. When you do that I'll either agree with you or put up a case for Maul.



I believe the showings you're referring to took place on/near the Star Forge, which by Ant's admission in his Malak respect thread would have amplified Malak; and presumably weakened those Jedi as well. Add that to onto this query - are the Jedi even of considerable power? - and I'd say it's not something that puts Malak above Maul; the guy who has repeatedly handed a powerful Jedi like Obi-Wan Kenobi his ass with telekinesis.

And as I said to Ant; Malak lost his jaw to Darth Revan in a good fight and lost to KotoR!Revan with massive advantages on his side and massive disadvantages on Revan's side. That doesn't equate to them being particularly close in my book.



I just don't understand how repeatedly losing to Revan is meant to compete with:

--Being accoladed as one of the most skilled, highly trained and dangerous Sith Warriors in all of history.
--Being highly regarded by Darths Sidious and Plagueis for both his speed and swordsmanship.
--Comfortably defeating one of the most skilled swordmasters the Jedi have produced in 25,000 years twice, the second time while he had the aid of his apprentice.
--Fighting evenly with and even at times defeating CW!Obi-Wan Kenobi; the Jedi's foremost master of Soresu who has defeated numerous powerful duelists himself.
--Curbstomping Savage Opress, who in turn has defeated highly skilled combatants such as Asajj Ventress and Plo Koon.

Then add in Maul's better proven physicality as a fighter in terms of strength, speed, endurance etc, superior technical skill with a lightsaber, superior tactical abilities, superior versatility.. I'm not seeing how Malak really compares.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Assuming Meetra considers Nihilus strong in the Force despite believing and being told precisely the opposite for a year, even saying as much herself. Neither Meetra or Traya consider Nihilus genuinely powerful, they consider him a dead end and an abomination.

Indeed. The phrase used was also that Revan's "command of the Force" was better than any she'd met, which is equally as likely to refer to his Force Mastery. And considering that Darth Revan has never demonstrated anything even close to Nihilus' level, that's certainly the better interpretation.

It's just that Ant is really dumb and biased.

Being on par to or better than Revan isn't somehow a ticket to equating Darth Maul in lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed. The phrase used was also that Revan's "command of the Force" was better than any she'd met, which is equally as likely to refer to his Force Mastery. And considering that Darth Revan has never demonstrated anything even close to Nihilus' level, that's certainly the better interpretation.

It's just that Ant is really dumb and biased.

That assumes that Revan has to have certain feats for that claim to be true. Which is faulty.

The truth is you're both pretty badly biased on the subject.

That said, it does seem to point more towards Force mastery than raw power.

I'll respond to everyone later today / early tomorrow.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Assuming Meetra considers Nihilus strong in the Force despite believing and being told precisely the opposite for a year, even saying as much herself. Neither Meetra or Traya consider Nihilus genuinely powerful, they consider him a dead end and an abomination.
http://media.giphy.com/media/3o85xJhFf5qhbhUzGo/giphy.gif

"To kill on such a scale... it's impossible. I don't understand - it would have taken several Republic cruisers to destroy the surface of Katarr."
―Meetra Surik (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

"He speaks, his voice roaring, and the player should realize that Nihilus is FAR more powerful than they had believed."
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords Dialog Files

Also note that right before that, the player learns that Darth Nihilus is about to destroy Telos and ripped his ships from Malachor.

So no, Meetra Surik regards Darth Nihilus as beyond impossibly powerful.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The truth is you're both pretty badly biased on the subject.
Not sure how it's bias if you recognize a quote from the Jedi Exile saying Revan is more powerful than Darth Nihilus. mmm

You have been one of the leading members for saying Darth Nihilus has limits in battle and his power. What's changed?

Wouldn't Meetra suggesting that Nihilus is impossibly powerful preclude that her previous impression of Revan puts him above Nihilus?

Assuming, of course, that we're actually seriously entertaining this idea.

Not if Revan is more powerful than the hardly comprehensible power of Nihilus, which is the point of the quote.

You have believed ideas far worse - and still do, tbh. I see why some not believe it, but you personally can't really deny it.

No, because Meetra wouldn't consider something impossible if Revan was more powerful than that level. Considering that her estimation of Revan was talking about him before she'd heard of Nihilus.

No, I haven't. Revan and Malak > Nihilus rocks the cock of bad ideas.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because Meetra wouldn't consider something impossible if Revan was more powerful than that level.
To be honest, if you have reached this level of denial then you should just concede, tbh.

Like, seriously?

Just because she views Revan as more powerful doesn't mean she knew that such power could be capable of having so much impact on a world.

We know that Surik was not fully aware (at all) of how dark and corrupted Revan's powers had become.



Saying Zannah is Palpatine level or that Bane is above Revan/Wrath/Marr/Shan/Beniko/Shae/Jakorro/Theron is far worse.


Clearly not if a novel directly states Revan > Nihilus, bud.

Basically, you use and wank character statements written by DK on books that retconned the original source material when you see fit, but then freely feel you can deny character statements written by DK on books that retconned the original source material when you don't like what's being said with the argument that it didn't give the original source material proper recognition.

Lol, u mad.

You used that quote to demonstrate Meetra's thoughts on power. It doesn't matter what she wasn't aware of, the whole thing comes from what she was aware of. She based that assessment of Revan on her knowledge of him prior to Nihilus, so she'd have the same assessment in mind when stating that it's impossible to do such a thing. Which is supported by the fact that it's laughable to consider Darth Revan having the power to destroy a village, let alone a planet.

Just admit you fvcked up because you're now seriously defending the idea that Malak > Nihilus which is a good way to become a justified target of ridicule.

Neph, he's not wrong when he says that you defend a lot of dumb ideas.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not sure how it's bias if you recognize a quote from the Jedi Exile saying Revan is more powerful than Darth Nihilus. mmm


But Neph's not necessarily wrong here. The quote doesn't actually say Revan > Nihilus. All it says is that the Exile believes Revan to have a greater command of the Force than anyone she's ever encountered. Neph might contend that Nihilus is a greater master of the Force than someone like Revan, but no one sane would. That doesn't mean that Revan is functionally "more powerful" than Nihilus as we define it. I wouldn't claim that Starkiller is a more masterful practitioner of the Force than Darth Tyranus, but he's certainly more powerful.

That said, I don't subscribe to the notion that simply because Revan hasn't nom-nommed planets under the same ambiguous circumstances Nihilus has that he can't be "more powerful" either.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You have been one of the leading members for saying Darth Nihilus has limits in battle and his power. What's changed?

Strawman. Hesitating to agree with the notion that Revan is as "powerful" as Nihilus does not equate to the idea that Nihilus is limitless.

We are just repeating the same things back-and-forth, like we always do.

What she isn't aware of is important because she's clearly not aware that anyone is capable of destroying a world with the Force. Just because she views Revan as more powerful does not mean she is aware that he is capable of destroying worlds. We know for a fact Revan was concealing his dark side powers from the Jedi Order, and that could have influence over Surik's realization that beings as powerful as Nihilus / Revan are capable of performing feats on such a scale.


Revan's affected entire fleets with his dark powers on Malachor.


I'm defending Revan > Nihilus. I haven't really spoke of Malak in comparison to Nihilus this entire thread, to my memory. Only you have.


I best take your word for it then. You know more about to become a justified target of ridicule than anyone else on KMC.
---

Nihilus' command of the Force is capable of incapacitating Surik and her allies with a mere gesture. This feat was when she realized that Nihilus was "far more powerful" than she originally anticipated.

Would you consider intentional telekinesis as evidence of one's "command of the Force?"

If so, then she was gauging his "command of the Force" as more impressive than people hyping Nihilus to be capable of moving fleets and destroying worlds.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You know more about to become a justified target of ridicule than anyone else on KMC.

http://i.imgur.com/iUMsLJB.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think an argument can be made for either side, actually. I think Vitiate and Kun can fight with Sidious for an extensive period of time and either can defeat Krayt in about as easily as Vitiate beat Revan. Malak is inferior to Maul, but would he lose before or after Krayt would lose? And would it even matter? Could Maul actually contribute to a fight against Vitiate and Kun? Vitiate's mental abilities are also a potent factor to consider.

Lastly, although we all prefer to just pair up everyone, the concept of teamwork could be considered. Team 2 is probably a more cohesive combination, but Vitiate would work well by spamming Force powers behind some meat shields.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Vitiate/Kun are peers? of the Emperor and, therefore, can one-shot Maul. Couldn't the Emperor or even Krayt do the same with Malak, whom you regard as Maul's inferior?

Of course.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What she isn't aware of is important because she's clearly not aware that anyone is capable of destroying a world with the Force. Just because she views Revan as more powerful does not mean she is aware that he is capable of destroying worlds. We know for a fact Revan was concealing his dark side powers from the Jedi Order, and that could have influence over Surik's realization that beings as powerful as Nihilus / Revan are capable of performing feats on such a scale.

She never gained that awareness about Revan, because he never did anything remotely on that scale that she'd know about or that could possibly imply it. She isn't aware that he's capable of that, because he isn't. If she's comparing Revan to the power of others, it logically follows that she's basing it solely on things she knows or has reason to believe that he's actually capable of doing.

Meetra doesn't view Revan as more powerful, she's referring to mastery.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's affected entire fleets with his dark powers on Malachor.

Using the power of Malachor. It's also not a direct feat of power. Bastila can affect fleets, who cares. Your bum-buddy Drew stated that Revan only "might" destroy a building. LOLOLOLOL!

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm defending Revan > Nihilus. I haven't really spoke of Malak in comparison to Nihilus this entire thread, to my memory. Only you have.

You championing Malak is merely the logical conclusion of your ideas.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I best take your word for it then. You know more about to become a justified target of ridicule than anyone else on KMC.

Blatantly untrue when Legend exists. Sorry, Legend.

Neph
Using the power of Malachor.

Explain.

Neph
It's also not a direct feat of power.





So let's follow that line of thought. Let's say Vitiate/Kun & Sheev/Krayt go for the efficient kills and eliminate the lesser combatants on either side. Then what?

Supposedly Revan drew on the power/darkness of Malachor to cloud a bunch of Jedi's chakras during the battle or something.

And in that case I guess team 1 wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Supposedly Revan drew on the power/darkness of Malachor to cloud a bunch of Jedi's chakras during the battle or something.

mmm

Where is dis purported?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And in that case I guess team 1 wins.

How so?

Based on?

Since he never destroyed a world that means he can't, right?

TBH, at this stage, your argument is just complaining about the wording of her awe over Nihilus.

The point of the quote is that she regards him as incredibly powerful.

She regards Revan as more incredibly powerful.

Bitching over that Revan can't be more powerful than that which is already "impossible" or blah blah is pretty pathetic.

Just because she didn't know Revan was capable of doing such a feat doesn't mean he can't.

She could have easily gauged his strength via his presence in the Force.

Even if we go by your train of logic and that they can't both mutually exist, then her quote considering it's impossible is retconned by the newer Revan novelization.

That leaves us with Surik listening to stories of how Nihilus consumed worlds and moved fleets, yet still found him to be "far more powerful" than said legends in person.

Yet she regards Revan in greater praise. mmm


Based on? I ask you the same question I asked Temp: would you consider intentional telekinesis as a demonstration of one's "command of the Force" or raw power?

Personally, I would classify it as an indication of both - but mainly the former.


Yes, he used the power of Malachor to influence the entire battle above Malachor, tipping the entire tide of the battle and corrupting many Jedi.

He's harnessing the power capable of affecting fleets - which is either an incredible display of mental resistance and telepathy or tutaminis / drain.


Through a power she is specifically gifted with. And who cares? The Jedi and Sith Order.


Yeah, pretty nice telekinetic hype.


I was unaware you knew what that word meant.


You're honestly worse than him at this point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm

Where is dis purported?

Another of Revan's feats I personally introduced to the world.

"Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle."
―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

Ant, I didn't realize you posed that question to me since you didn't actually address me in the post. uhuh

To answer your question: I'm not sure. I've had this discussion with others in the past, but it's pretty hard at times to distinguish a feat as one that derives primarily from "raw power" and/or "mastery."

It becomes a semantics game. You'd think Anakin Skywalker, by dint of his unparalleled midichlorian count, would have a higher "command of the Force" than anybody in the sense that he can command it more easily and thoroughly than those of lesser attunement. Yet we know that's not true. And he's often outclassed in displays of "core" abilities {e.g. TK} by those who are, on-paper, weaker in the Force than he.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Another of Revan's feats I personally introduced to the world.

"Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle."
―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

Intriguing. So he used the nexus to achieve that feat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm

Where is dis purported?



How so?

In Ants respect thread. I see he's posted some of it. Predictably, Ant is overstating things. It doesn't actually say "tipping the entire tide of the battle and corrupting many Jedi." It just says he corrupted some and that it affected the fight. Its more a feat for Malachor than anything.

Like I said, Sidious' fight would be inconclusive by the time Krayt loses to his opponent.

@Tempest: I was unaware one as great as yourself needed to be addressed. I figured you would simply know what I asked given your self-proclaimed god-like powers.

And, interesting. Then by the looks of it, it goes down to a matter of interpretation. Nephthys and I should both be able to have our separate opinions.


We can logically conclude he corrupted all his Jedi under his command given they all left with him into the Unknown Regions loyally. To me that's "many."

Another description says that "more and more Jedi" were corrupted. So it's clearly a lot.

And by the looks of it he did tip the entire tide of the battle because, before his arrival, Meetra Surik and her forces were being utterly creamed by the Mandalorians.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In Ants respect thread. I see he's posted some of it. Predictably, Ant is overstating things. It doesn't actually say "tipping the entire tide of the battle and corrupting many Jedi." It just says he corrupted some and that it affected the fight. Its more a feat for Malachor than anything.

yeah but everybody knows nexuses don't matter that much c'mon

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like I said, Sidious' fight would be inconclusive by the time Krayt loses to his opponent.

I see. This particular incarnation of Vitiate has enough juice to stalemate the Emperor in this environment? Indefinitely, or is the gap between Krayt and Kun that pronounced?

The thing with Malachor and nexus is that, by the looks of he, he moved the corruptive energies of the planet to orbit to affect the Jedi.

He could have also dominated the minds of the Jedi to feel the corrupt energies of the planet below.

Either way, Revan was directly involved in the corruption of the Jedi, and it's a pretty damn impressive feat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
We can logically conclude he corrupted all his Jedi under his command given they all left with him into the Unknown Regions loyally. To me that's "many."

Another description says that "more and more Jedi" were corrupted. So it's clearly a lot.

And by the looks of it he did tip the entire tide of the battle because, before his arrival, Meetra Surik and her forces were being utterly creamed by the Mandalorians.

Pretty sure the MSG had more of an impact, tbh. Lol.

And a bunch of those Jedi were already corrupted by war and not all needed to be corrupted to follow Revan. And Revan specifically killed everyone not loyal to him with the MSG, so clearly not "all" of them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure the MSG had more of an impact, tbh. Lol.
This was before the MSG.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And a bunch of those Jedi were already corrupted by war and not all needed to be corrupted to follow Revan. And Revan specifically killed everyone not loyal to him with the MSG, so clearly not "all" of them.
He put everyone not loyal to him under Surik's command.

He corrupted all of his troopers that were not already loyal to him.

It's clearly "many" Jedi, Neph. Don't even try to deny it, lmfao.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The thing with Malachor and nexus is that, by the looks of he, he moved the corruptive energies of the planet to orbit to affect the Jedi.

https://notesfromachair.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/tumblr_m4g304ze9x1r8khsj.gif

I... don't follow. Telepathy clearly isn't restricted by physical proximity. He needn't have moved energies anywhere; all he need have done is draw on them to increase the power of his influence and perhaps his range as well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
yeah but everybody knows nexuses don't matter that much c'mon



I see. This particular incarnation of Vitiate has enough juice to stalemate the Emperor in this environment? Indefinitely, or is the gap between Krayt and Kun that pronounced?

Malachor is insanely corruptive.

Either. The gap is enough, imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malachor is insanely corruptive.

oh so its just this nexus that counts i gotchya

Originally posted by Nephthys
Either. The gap is enough, imo.

mmm

What leads you to believe this particular incarnation of Vitiate can stalemate the Emperor briefly or indefinitely in this particular environment?

And what leads you to believe the gap betwixt Kun and Krayt is pronounced enough to make a victory by team 2 less likely than team 1?

edit: rewriting my post

That... doesn't make any sense at all. Empowered by Malachor, Revan influenced the orbital battle. I don't know how you're concluding that he like lifted the elevation of the nexus to orbital levels.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
oh so its just this nexus that counts i gotchya



mmm

What leads you to believe this particular incarnation of Vitiate can stalemate the Emperor briefly or indefinitely in this particular environment?

And what leads you to believe the gap betwixt Kun and Krayt is pronounced enough to make a victory by team 2 less likely than team 1?

Like Ant said, he didn't use an amp or whatever, he just used Malachor's corruptive influence to affect them. He was a dummy and missed half a quote:

"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle... Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence."

―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

Well Talzin did. Even as of Revan Vitiate's lightning is good enough that he can rival or maybe even surpass Sidious' own. His TP, TK and sorcery are also top tier, he'd stand up to Sidious for a good while. Dude's a powerhouse even at this point.

The evidence of Kun being a boss. I just do, he'd overwhelm him with amulet blasts or whatever. Kun is legit and I'm not Nai enough to go into more detail when I feel like shit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like Ant said, he didn't use an amp or whatever, he just used Malachor's corruptive influence to affect them. He was a dummy and missed half a quote:

"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle... Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence."

―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic



The quote says Revan drew upon its power. Clearly the energies that were affecting the orbital battle were ultimately from Malachor, but at Revan's direction. He didn't lift the nexus or any silly shit.

i dont understand you guys tbh

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Talzin did.

Is Talzin an anagram of Vitiate?

Talzin went toe-to-toe with Sheev "at the heart of her power."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even as of Revan Vitiate's lightning is good enough that he can rival or maybe even surpass Sidious' own. His TP, TK and sorcery are also top tier,

On Dromund Kaas, a dark side nexus?

Originally posted by Nephthys
he'd stand up to Sidious for a good while. Dude's a powerhouse even at this point.

I don't think anyone has presented a legitimate case for this. Feats cited involve dark side nexuses, traps, a buttload of speculation, and irrelevant chronology.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The evidence of Kun being a boss. I just do, he'd overwhelm him with amulet blasts or whatever. Kun is legit and I'm not Nai enough to go into more detail when I feel like shit.

I see.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Telepathy clearly isn't restricted by physical proximity. He needn't have moved energies anywhere; all he need have done is draw on them to increase the power of his influence and perhaps his range as well.
It's more complex than that, tbh.

First, I'll take you back to when Revan first discovered Malachor. He was unaware of the true nature of the world until he reached the surface. It's clearly not affecting ships or Jedi in space when Revan didn't realize it was a dark side world until he reached the surface. When he reached the surface, he discovered how powerful it truly was.

Once there, on Malachor V, "he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause."

This takes us to game-day.

The Battle of Malachor V was one of the deadliest and influential battles in galactic history. It marked the end of the Mandalorians as a galactic threat for the rest of time, and set the scene for the Jedi Civil Wars and First Jedi Purge. The entire battle was manipulated by Revan alone to...

1.) Eradicate the Mandalorian armada from the face of the galaxy for history.
2.) Gain an army of Jedi and Republic followers with unyielding loyalty to him.

The plan itself was highly complex and was planned by Revan since his first encounter with Malachor V.

"Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor. I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan. I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."
―HK-47 (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

As the game canonically says, "It is no coincidence that the Republic fleet at Malachor was composed of soldiers and Jedi whose loyalties to Revan were in doubt." Before the Battle of Malachor V, Revan split his fleet in two. He gave Meetra Surik the "tattered remains" of a portion of his armada, whose soldiers' loyalties were in doubt through the horrors of war and loss. The soldiers that remained with him were the ones he had molded into unwavering loyalty. Upon seeing the "damaged, weakened and vulnerable" armada led by Meetra Surik, the Mandalorians quickly followed them. As Revan planned, she lured them to Malachor V. Malachor V was a forbidden world to the Mandalorians - a cultural taboo that Revan used against them. If you recall, Malachor V was also a planet that contained immense dark side energies Revan planned to use against both fleets.

The battle began with Revan's fleet conveniently delayed by a mere Mandalorian scouting party. This setback was however Revan's intentions. He needed to join the battle with the Republic on the losing end of the spectrum for the next phase of the plan to effectively work. Bao-Dur, the creator of the Mass Shadow Generator, describes that, before Revan arrived, the Mandalorian forces "tore into us like beasts, shredding our ships to scrap as we fought back."

""Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

When Revan arrived with the bulk of the Republic fleet at his back, the Mandalorians realized they have been tricked. Revan used the Force to call upon the dark side energies of Malachor V and the Trayus Academy, and then released the energies against both fleets. The dark side power turned the side of the conflict while also corrupting hundreds of Jedi into his Sith minions.

The feat is both a mixture of Revan's telepathic powers and tutaminis, imo. Firstly, we know he affected the Mandalorian fleet drastically. I'm not sure a dark side nexus affects non-Force sensitives, so it's safe to say he was doing a lot of that manually. However we also know that all his own Jedi were affected, and turned into Sith simultaneously. By the looks of it, Revan either moved the nexus up to orbit because, as we covered earlier, the Jedi clearly can't feel the nexus of the planet from orbit, or Revan telepathically influenced the Jedi to feel the presence of Malachor down below given the fact they all felt it at the same time. Either way, it's an incredible feat.

Your theory that Revan used the nexus to influence the fleet is possible, however, like Nephthys said, we know that the Jedi were ultimately influenced by the "planet." It's possible the quote simply means the "planet" as in Revan is getting the energies from the planet and thus Malachor is affecting them indirectly. While I disagree with your theory, it still portrays Revan as enormously powerful, so I shall allow it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


The quote says Revan drew upon its power. Clearly the energies that were affecting the orbital battle were ultimately from Malachor, but at Revan's direction. He didn't lift the nexus or any silly shit.

i dont understand you guys tbh

It says they were corrupted by the energies "emanating" from the planet. You know what emanating means, right?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Is Talzin an anagram of Vitiate?

Talzin went toe-to-toe with Sheev "at the heart of her power."

Well, it almost is.

Who cares? Vitiate is very comparable to her even at the heart of her power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
On Dromund Kaas, a dark side nexus?

:fart noises:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't think anyone has presented a legitimate case for this. Feats cited involve dark side nexuses, traps, a buttload of speculation, and irrelevant chronology.

:farting intensifies:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I see.

I know.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It says they were corrupted by the energies "emanating" from the planet. You know what emanating means, right?

I do. You do know what planet means, right? He didn't put that shit in orbit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who cares? Vitiate is very comparable to her even at the heart of her power.

When he's not at the heart of his own? You've yet to make that case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
:fart noises:

Originally posted by Nephthys
:farting intensifies:

The most thoughtful section of your post tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know.

Sounds like your position relies on lots of bias and speculation tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do. You do know what planet means, right? He didn't put that shit in orbit.

Yeah, he kind of drew the power up to affect everyone or something. Like if it was a rancid-ass fart and he put a big fan behind it or something.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
When he's not at the heart of his own? You've yet to make that case.

Good thing you're just asking for my opinion and not telling me to make a case without making one yourself.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The most thoughtful section of your post tbh.

ty

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sounds like your position relies on lots of bias and speculation tbh.

It relies on a lot of preformed stances built off of several years worth of evaluation, tbh.

So we've established that Revan drew on Malachor's power to affect the orbital battle and can put to rest that bizarre notion that he literally raised its elevation.

I'm interested to see where ILS v. Nai goes. 👍

Originally posted by The_Tempest
When he's not at the heart of his own? You've yet to make that case.
Vitiate is 'generally' stated to be supremely strong in the dark side and almost godlike avatar of the dark side.

Not a single source asserts that Vitiate is supremely powerful on Dromund Kaas and/or worlds strong in the dark side only.

Vitiate's great power is not a product of external environments, it is self-earned. You won't find a source that would assert that Vitiate is virtually unstoppable here on Dromund Kaas or something like that but is vulnerable in a neutral setting.

Vitiate transformed Dromund Kaas with his dark practices and power, not the other way around.

No shit Vitiate is extremely strong no matter where he is. Doesn't mean he's strong enough to take on the Emperor no matter where he is.

Vitiate is the Emperor tho. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-nyoron.gif

An Emperor, not the Galactic Emperor though.

Originally posted by AncientPower
An Emperor, not the Galactic Emperor though.

👍

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No shit Vitiate is extremely strong no matter where he is.
This particular point is settled then.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Doesn't mean he's strong enough to take on the Emperor no matter where he is.
What level of strength is needed to challenge Darth Sidious in your opinion?

Vitiate defeated a strike team of Dark Council members and scores of Jedi (including legendary Revan) in confrontations. In addition to epic performance in combat situations, Vitiate have some of the best showings in the applications of Sith Sorcery and manipulating the external environment.

Originally posted by AncientPower
An Emperor, not the Galactic Emperor though.
The position of Sith Emperor is more challenging because a Sith Empire breeds lot of competition and potential enemies. In contrast, Darth Sidious minimized competition in his Galactic Empire.

Vitiate defeated the Dark Council on Dromund Kaas and under ambiguous circumstances. Revan gave Vitiate hell and that was on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate hesitated to take on Revan, Scourge, and the Exile.

I'm not necessarily saying the Emperor will stomp him, but I see no evidence to believe Vitiate can hold his own in a neutral setting for very long.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate defeated the Dark Council on Dromund Kaas and under ambiguous circumstances. Revan gave Vitiate hell and that was on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate hesitated to take on Revan, Scourge, and the Exile. There is something wrong or irrelevant in every sentence you wrote here.

How long does the battle have to take for you to consider it very long?

Thirty seconds? A minute?

You should feel free to point those things out then. 👍

I strongly believe a force fight between Novel Vitiate and ROTS Sidious is a good fight if not a close one so I think it would certainly ake that long for Sidious to bring him down.

1) Why does the DK amp matter against the DC?
2) Revan didn't give Vitiate hell. He would even get humiliated if his name wasn't on the cover.
3) Vitiate didn't hesitate to take on them. Scourge first assumed as much then he himself realized that thought didn't make sense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate defeated the Dark Council on Dromund Kaas and under ambiguous circumstances. Revan gave Vitiate hell and that was on Dromund Kaas.
Didn't you acknowledge that Vitiate is extremely powerful and setting isn't important when considering him? Yet you mentioned Dromund Kaas in your statements as if this setting granted Vitiate some sort of advantage over his opponents. This is not a sound argument or assumption. In both of these confrontations, Vitiate and his opponents were on same level of playing field since each combatant was a practitioner of the dark side (including Revan).

Now that the setting-based argument is addressed, I shall comment on the additional aspects of the referred confrontations.

Vitiate vs. Dark Council

I also notice ambiguity in details of this confrontation but it doesn't discredits Vitiate's victory in this event; ambiguity is that Vitiate's offensive technique have not been identified in this confrontation. However, this mysterious technique can be regarded as an application of Sith Sorcery. More importantly, Vitiate have this offensive option under his belt for any hypothetical confrontation.

Vitiate vs. Revan

I don't recall Revan giving hell to Vitiate in any confrontation. But I acknowledge the fact that Revan performed admirably in his final confrontation with Vitiate. This isn't surprising since Revan is officially acknowledged as an extraordinarily powerful and competent Force-user just like Yoda. IMO, Revan can hold his own against any foe.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate hesitated to take on Revan, Scourge, and the Exile.
I think that you are overreaching here.

The referred strike team did give Vitiate a pause but the latter wasn't deciding to flee or felt that he could not win. In-fact, it is explicitly stated in the novel that Vitiate was more likely to defeat this strike team if they had fought.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not necessarily saying the Emperor will stomp him, but I see no evidence to believe Vitiate can hold his own in a neutral setting for very long.
The fact that you even entertained the idea in the slightest that Darth Sidious would stomp Vitiate is worrisome.

Also, you don't think that Vitiate can kill or even injure Sidious?

Sidious looks at the TOR team and does this

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-09/3/2/enhanced/webdr01/anigif_enhanced-buzz-28032-1409724032-4.gif

Originally posted by Sinious
2) Revan didn't give Vitiate hell. He would even get humiliated if his name wasn't on the cover.

That's a ****ing horrendous argument if I ever saw one

Originally posted by Selenial
That's a ****ing horrendous argument if I ever saw one

Not really an argument by itself. We can discuss what really went down in the part where Revan faced Vitiate and I can give you my arguments regarding that topic but I'm %100 confident that confrontation cannot be summed up as "Revan gave Vitiate hell."

Originally posted by Sinious
I strongly believe a force fight between Novel Vitiate and ROTS Sidious is a good fight if not a close one so I think it would certainly ake that long for Sidious to bring him down.

Cool.

Originally posted by Sinious
1) Why does the DK amp matter against the DC?

I said "on Dromund Kaas under ambiguous circumstances," meaning we don't know if (a) Vitiate could bring that sort of power to bear at this point without a dark side nexus and (b) we don't know what role was played by preparation or rituals.

That's how it's relevant.

Originally posted by Sinious
2) Revan didn't give Vitiate hell. He would even get humiliated if his name wasn't on the cover.

Yes he did and, to echo Selenial, that's a pretty dumb reason.

Originally posted by Sinious
3) Vitiate didn't hesitate to take on them. Scourge first assumed as much then he himself realized that thought didn't make sense.

?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I said "on Dromund Kaas under ambiguous circumstances," meaning we don't know if (a) Vitiate could bring that sort of power to bear at this point without a dark side nexus and (b) we don't know what role was played by preparation or rituals.

That's how it's relevant. (a) His power targeted people who were also amped by the nexus so the amp he got is irrelevant. (b) agreed.

Don't just say things man. How did he give Vitiate hell? Vitiate faced the consequences of his own mistakes as he underestimated his opponent. Revan got one-shot the moment Vitiate stopped underestimating him.

What is confusing you?

Originally posted by Sinious
(a) His power targeted people who were also amped by the nexus so the amp he got is irrelevant. (b) agreed.

Don't just say things man. How did he give Vitiate hell? Vitiate faced the consequences of his own mistakes as he underestimated his opponent. Revan got one-shot the moment Vitiate stopped underestimating him.

What is confusing you?

It's only irrelevant if I were claiming that Vitiate had some sort of unfair amp advantage over the Dark Council, which I'm not. I'm saying that we have no earthly idea if he could bring that kind of juice to a fight against anyone at this point in time without a nexus and/or prep.

"Don't just say things" from the guy who credits Revan's performance against Vitiate with the fact that he's on the cover of the book?? He put Vitiate on his ass at least twice. That's not a stomp.

I'm not confused, I just don't know where you're getting that from since you didn't bother to cite the passage. "Don't just say things, man."

👍

The only one tricky is Kun vs. Krayt.

The other figths are clear, Sidious > Vitiate and Maul > Malak.

Team 2 wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To be fair, Malak is more powerful than Nihilus though.


Ninilus is vastly overrated, tbh.

Agreed on Kun and Krayt. I know NewGuy01 is confident that he can successfully prosecute his case for Krayt's superiority, but so is Nai for the reverse.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's only irrelevant if I were claiming that Vitiate had some sort of unfair amp advantage over the Dark Council, which I'm not. I'm saying that we have no earthly idea if he could bring that kind of juice to a fight against anyone at this point in time without a nexus and/or prep.

"Don't just say things" from the guy who credits Revan's performance against Vitiate with the fact that he's on the cover of the book?? He put Vitiate on his ass at least twice. That's not a stomp.

I'm not confused, I just don't know where you're getting that from since you didn't bother to cite the passage. "Don't just say things, man."

👍

If he didn't have some sort of advantage with the nexus amp, then how is the nexus amp relevant?

I didn't base my argument on that. We had a discussion about this before but we can go through it again. One-shotting someone without doing any harm to them beforehand is at least a semi-stomp and just because Vitiate didn't give his full and got surprised by Revan's increased power at the beginning, it doesn't mean he wasn't always capable of one-shotting him. Revan being able to pull off what he did there is not an indication of power, it only proves he was capable of defending against Vitiate's halfass attacks which was never questionable.



This the part you are referring to are you not? I don't see any hesitation here. Only Scourge entertains that idea and disregards it immediately.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's only irrelevant if I were claiming that Vitiate had some sort of unfair amp advantage over the Dark Council, which I'm not. I'm saying that we have no earthly idea if he could bring that kind of juice to a fight against anyone at this point in time without a nexus and/or prep.

He couldn't, hypothetically he'd bring a lesser amount of power to a fight but that wouldn't matter since he'd be bringing it against a group of opponents who are also lesser by an equal amount, so his assault would be equally as effective as it was in reality.

You have a point about prep though, speculative as the presence of prep is.

@Sinious

...because there's no indication that he could generate an attack of that potency without a nexus...

Yeah, we have had the argument before and the facts are as plain now as they were then. Revan lost when he tried to tank Vitiate's super charged attack barehanded. Before that, he put him on his ass twice and foiled a mindhaxx attempt. That's not a stomp. "semi-stomp"? Are you serious?

Reread what you cited: Scourge dismissed the idea that Vitiate was waiting on help from the guards, because the fight would be over "one way or another" by the time external aid arrived.

He didn't dismiss Vitiate's hesitation, just that particular reason for it.

Apologies but a joke I thought of from the other Malak-including thread.....

So we are all in agreement? Malak solos Selenial?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
@Sinious

...because there's no indication that he could generate an attack of that potency without a nexus...

Yeah, we have had the argument before and the facts are as plain now as they were then. Revan lost when he tried to tank Vitiate's super charged attack barehanded. Before that, he put him on his ass twice and foiled a mindhaxx attempt. That's not a stomp. "semi-stomp"? Are you serious?

Reread what you cited: Scourge dismissed the idea that Vitiate was waiting on help from the guards, because the fight would be over "one way or another" by the time external aid arrived.

He didn't dismiss Vitiate's hesitation, just that particular reason for it.

What potency? You mean he couldn't one-shot an amped Dark Council without getting amped himself? Sure. Its proven that he can one-shot a Dark Council with no amp involved though. Had Vitiate lifted up a huge rock and threw on the Dark Council and kill them that way, you would have the chance to make an argument regarding the nexus amp making it possible for him to kill them. Not in this case though.

Look at the Sidious vs Yoda fight. Because they are extremely close/equals, Yoda was able to defend against Sidious' lightning barehanded and keep going for a decent amount of time. Revan on the other hand was instantly overwhelmed. If the gap of power between them is as small as you make it sound, he wouldnt go down that fast against Vitiate's first serious offense. He was able resist the TP attack because he had prior experience, not because he was naturally that talented or powerful.

What's wrong with semi-stomp?

What hesitation are you talking about though? As far as I know, no other source suggests he hesitated so you must be referring to the novel. So please share the text that proves Vitiate had hesitation.

Originally posted by Sinious
What potency? You mean he couldn't one-shot an amped Dark Council without getting amped himself? Sure. Its proven that he can one-shot a Dark Council with no amp involved though.

You clearly are not understanding the point. Think Bane vs Zannah on Ambria. It's possible Vitiate could bring powers to bear on a nexus he couldn't normally, and being on a nexus doesn't necessarily mean the DC had a get-out-free card. That's all he's saying.

The point is we don't know the circumstances, we don't know what kind of prep was involved, we don't even know exactly what happened. It's an ambiguous event with too many unknown variables to make any reliable claims about it.



Sidious and Yoda are equals, Revan and Vitiate aren't. No one is denying this.

The denial part comes in when you start throwing around claims like "Revan only fared well because his name's on the cover, he'd be instantly overwhelmed otherwise".

Revan put him in his ass, twice. Vitiate was hesitant to face the three of them as a unit. Scourge's visions showed many possible futures where Vitiate was defeated by Revan. Revan continued to influence him over the course of centuries. The idea that Revan is fodder to Vitiate is almost laughable.



You have yet to prove he wasn't fighting seriously before.

👍

@ Tempest

You should reply yourself tbh and not to my response to Newguy but the one you're supposed to reply cause I know you'll ignore that one and just reply this post.

@ Newguy

I never use Vitiate's DC one-shoting feat in debates for the same reason. However, I'm curious to know if you honestly think inspecting the details to that degree and using the lack of exposure in even the smallest of details against the character is a healthy way of approaching feats. How many times did that(something like Zannah's nexus feat) happen in the myhtos? He obviously used prep to reach that level of power since his showings with context prove he isn't naturally that strong but to mention the nexus amp and say it might have allowed Vitiate to use new techniques that he normally couldn't use is a bit reaching imo. Especialy since it was most likely a lightning alike attack. Though at first I considered it irrelevant cause both sides were aligned with the dark side of the force.

I just said that randomly and didn't even construct an argument based on it. Obviously being the main character doesn't grant him any advantages. I've also said other things about that fight throughout the thread so you can address them if you want to. Can you also prove your claims? Like how at what point did Vitiate start to hesitate and feel truly in danger? Revan is no fodder to Vitiate like Vader is no fodder to Sidious. He can't "give him hell" though.

He tried to TP rape him instead of fighting him and even had his guard down at first. He sent small lightning bursts instead of proper attacks and his effectiveness in the battle vastly changed after he realized he underestimated his enemy. Isn't the text itself proof?

Originally posted by Sinious
@ Tempest

You should reply yourself tbh and not to my response to Newguy but the one you're supposed to reply cause I know you'll ignore that one and just reply this post.

But if he's in agreement with my post, what's the point of him rehashing it?



Except apparently this one.



Honestly I don't think it's that easy/simple. When faced with an amplified storm of Vitiate's lightning, does being on a nexus make them as able to defend against the torrent as effectively as they would if it wasn't amped at all? There's not necessarily a right answer to this, but it's something Id like you to think on; we're not dealing with a clean mathematical equation here.



/shrug, I just got here.



Can't really provide quotes right now, I'm at school and on my phone. Maybe Temp can help you out.



Sure, that's one of his preferred tactics.



He had his guard down because he was putting all of his concentration into his attempt at breaking Revan's will. I'm pretty sure this is explicitly stated in the text.



*He fought normally rather than unleashing his most powerful attack at the get-go.

Not that I don't agree Karpyshyn is terrible at writing fights.

Also, Revan's relationship with Tenebrae isn't the same as Vader's with Palps. I restate: Scourge saw Revan winning against Vitiate in a healthy portion of his visions of the future. This means without a shadow of a doubt that Revan/co. could compete with him. On Dromund Kaas.

Originally posted by Sinious
@ Tempest

You should reply yourself tbh and not to my response to Newguy but the one you're supposed to reply cause I know you'll ignore that one and just reply this post.

I was at work and NewGuy01, my chosen successor in the Sheevite religion, has performed ably on my behalf. I see no reason to regurgitate what he's already posted.

Scourge observed Vitiate's hesitation when the Exile entered the fray. It's the same hesitation that prevented Vitiate from acting until Scourge betrayed Revan by killing Surik. And as my protege already reminded you, Scourge saw many visions of Revan triumphing over Vitiate.

Is Vitiate more powerful than Revan? Sure. But the text makes it quite clear, in a number of ways, that the gap between them isn't as remotely profound as you want it to be. It wasn't remotely a stomp.

There's really nothing left to say on the matter imo. My conclusions are based from explicit statements from the relevant text.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But if he's in agreement with my post, what's the point of him rehashing it?


Cause you didn't address the entirety of it. I want him to prove to me that Vitiate hesitated. I'm open to changing my opinion if he actually proves it.
From the very beginning we agreed that this feat was achieved under unknown circumstances and most likely with prep and that it has no significance in this thread so no not really. We are debating this cause I said mentioning the nexus effect there was irrelevant.

If we are practicing critical thinking, how about not exaggerating the nexus effect? I like to acknowledge its effect and agree that it makes a feat less impressive but people started ignoring nexus feats completely and now this seems like even more extreme than that. With that said I get your point.

Aight.



Is it preferred cause it makes it easier for him to win though? Its harder for Vitiate to mindrape someone than simply take them out with lightning imo. I like to compare novel Vitiate's battle tactics to SWTOR Vitiate's tactics to have a better understanding of what really went down. In the novel he was reckless on all accounts and was too cocky. As you can see in the cutscenes, he doesn't try to mindrape his enemies without fighting them but first takes them out with his potent attacks right away. In the novel, we see the exact opposite of that.

Not denying that. This means that he was certain that he would be successful at mindraping Revan and was confident enough to have his guard down. After all, this guy's main characteristic is fear of death.


He was facing a very powerful opponent who was experienced with his tactics. Not giving your all in this situation could back fire for anyone which is what happened with Vitiate.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, Revan's relationship with Tenebrae isn't the same as Vader's with Palps. I restate: Scourge saw Revan winning against Vitiate in a healthy portion of his visions of the future. This means without a shadow of a doubt that Revan/co. could compete with him. On Dromund Kaas. Vitiate tried to toy with Revan and failed. Would ROTJ Palpatine fail at toying with Vader in a pure force fight? Probably not. But Vitiate also had a disadvantage of having false opinions about Revan where Revan used his knowledge of Vitiate to his advantage which is not the case with Vader and Sidious. I, however, do agree that the gap between Vader and Sidious is bigger than the gap between Revan and Vitiate as of the novel. With that said, I think my point stands: Revan is no fodder to Vitiate but that doesn't mean he can give him hell.

As for the visions Scourge saw, I have an entirely different approach to them than most people. I believe what Drew tried to do there was bringing in a concept to the novel that would make it more interesting which is a sith admiring the Jedi and learning their abilities. We always see Jedi falling to the dark side and learning new cool tricks but with Scourge it was the other way around and despite his capabilities as a force user, he noobed out big time when he first tried to see force visions which is quite natural. IIRC, the novel says that Scourge saw millions of different scenarios regarding the future. I think we are simply being told that anything can happen in the future and Scourge's countless visions have little importance in a versus matchup. This concept has no significance when comparing the powers of characters imo.

Originally posted by Sinious
Cause you didn't address the entirety of it. I want him to prove to me that Vitiate hesitated. I'm open to changing my opinion if he actually proves it.







All of this was right around the same passage you cited, so I'm not sure how you missed it. The text says Vitiate hesitated, Vitiate himself doesn't expressly contradict the idea that the three could beat him, and Vitiate only attacked when Revan was distracted and the Exile was killed.

Pretty goddamn clear tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I was at work and NewGuy01, my chosen successor in the Sheevite religion, has performed ably on my behalf. I see no reason to regurgitate what he's already posted. Holy s***, this reminds me, you promised to train me! I completely forgot about that and now this. I can't believe I ended up like Maul

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All of this was right around the same passage you cited, so I'm not sure how you missed it. The text says Vitiate hesitated, Vitiate himself doesn't expressly contradict the idea that the three could beat him, and Vitiate only attacked when Revan was distracted and the Exile was killed.

Pretty goddamn clear tbh.

Vitiate hesitated because he had no earthly clue who Meetra was and was evaluating her. She could have been another Revan, so he'd be wary of assuming he can crush her and underestimate another opponent.

Vitiate not contradicting them and attacking when they're distracted aren't evidence of anything tbh.